Speaker 1: Here's the question. Has Hillsong changed, Has it listened to critics,
Speaker 1: has it listened to people like me? I left Hillsong
Speaker 1: two years ago. I started working on this series more
Speaker 1: than a year ago, and now I know a whole
Speaker 1: lot more. In the past seven episodes of False Prophets,
Speaker 1: we've heard stories of all kinds of abuse, spiritual, sexual,
Speaker 1: and economic. The Hillsong I knew did not challenge abuse
Speaker 1: of behavior by star preachers instead of protected the brand.
Speaker 1: I'm no Emmy would ebit. And this is the final
Speaker 1: episode of False Prophets, and I'm asking can there be justice?
Speaker 1: It's a Sunday, which means that today Hillsong had their service.
Speaker 1: And I don't feel like I owe the bunny thing.
Speaker 1: I don't feel weird being here anymore. This is the
Speaker 1: Boston Commons, the park where I took my dog Teddy.
Speaker 1: We're not far from Royale, the nightclub that gets transformed
Speaker 1: into Hillsong Church every week. After leaving the church, for
Speaker 1: some time, I wouldn't go out. I was living outside
Speaker 1: of the city and I would get panic attacks if
Speaker 1: I ran into someone, and I wanted it to be
Speaker 1: my home again and not feel like I was invading
Speaker 1: a place, or I was out of place, and so
Speaker 1: I moved into the city, into the Back Bay area,
Speaker 1: close to this park. And I've been here for a
Speaker 1: year or so, and honestly, now I feel so much
Speaker 1: more confidence to just walk on the street. And now
Speaker 1: I'm able to contin They need to live in the
Speaker 1: city knowing that Hillsong Church is still here. You know,
Speaker 1: my hope speaking out is that they will cease to
Speaker 1: exist as a church organization. But for now, for now
Speaker 1: Boston is my city again. I can enjoy life. Hillsong
Speaker 1: has made it clear they are not prepared to engage
Speaker 1: with people who want it to close down, and they
Speaker 1: won't discuss individual grievances. Hillsong needs to face a simple fact.
Speaker 1: When people get hurt by religion, there's no quick fix.
Speaker 1: The church wants to move on. Brian Houston is out,
Speaker 1: a new leadership is in, but that's not the end
Speaker 1: for many of us. Trauma stays with you. I'm going
Speaker 1: to go back to a guy named Andrew to help
Speaker 1: you understand. In March of twenty twenty two, and media
Speaker 1: reports of Brian Houston's stepping down from church, those media
Speaker 1: reports created a setup in so many different ways for
Speaker 1: my body to relive exactly what it was like at
Speaker 1: twenty to come out and lose everything. It's nearly twenty
Speaker 1: years since Andrew was shamed, tormented, and rejected when he
Speaker 1: came out as a gay man in Hillsong. He's built
Speaker 1: a successful and happy life since then. But when Hillsong
Speaker 1: scandals hit the news headlines, the past came flooding back.
Speaker 1: My body felt like a prison. I had rashes all
Speaker 1: over my feet, a rash all over my face. My
Speaker 1: body became inflamed. My chest felt like it had metal
Speaker 1: wire trapping it. And it is astounding to me that
Speaker 1: after all of these years, my buddy is remembering that isolation,
Speaker 1: that threat to my existence. I can see why some
Speaker 1: people have not been able to survive these experiences. Andrew
Speaker 1: never had an apology from Hillsong, and I don't think
Speaker 1: he ever will. We asked Hillsong to respond to the
Speaker 1: issues raised in this series. So far, Hillsong has decided
Speaker 1: not to respond on the record or on tape. The
Speaker 1: church wants to tell a story of renewal and change,
Speaker 1: but for me, renew means a lot of hard work.
Speaker 1: Healing takes time, and it comes at a financial cost.
Speaker 1: You can't talk about Hillsong for long without bringing up
Speaker 1: money because it's obviously a really big issue. And if
Speaker 1: I could, I would definitely submit an invoice for a
Speaker 1: refund for all the day images and all of the
Speaker 1: work and free labor that I gave. That would be amazing.
Speaker 1: I would definitely get a lot of money back. So
Speaker 1: I did put together an Excel spreadsheet with all my costs,
Speaker 1: and so I like to now jokingly say that it's
Speaker 1: my invoice for that one year that I spent recovering
Speaker 1: from being at Hillsong, Texas twenty twenty medical expenses here
Speaker 1: we go. So I divided it between medical expenses and
Speaker 1: ESA expenses because Teddy at the time was my emotional
Speaker 1: support animal. Just for Teddy. The grand total was one thousand,
Speaker 1: seven hundred and fifty six with sixteen cents and for
Speaker 1: medical cost this included just regular PCP visits, and I
Speaker 1: needed more than the usual in going to my psychiatric doctor,
Speaker 1: going to my therapist, dental. A lot of people don't
Speaker 1: talk about this, but mental health can really affect your
Speaker 1: teeth with grinding and your gums swell. It could be
Speaker 1: pretty dangerous. I had to get a lot of work done,
Speaker 1: and I still go every three months. The usual is
Speaker 1: every six months, so I actually have a lot of
Speaker 1: costs that add up there. So with all of that
Speaker 1: together in twenty twenty added to two thousand, five hundred
Speaker 1: and six dollars with fifty seven cents, And honestly, that
Speaker 1: seems really low to me because I had a good
Speaker 1: insurance that year, luckily, and it covered a good portion,
Speaker 1: but I still had to pay twenty five hundred dollars
Speaker 1: out of pocket. Twenty five hundred dollars is a lot
Speaker 1: to me, It probably wasn't a lot to some of
Speaker 1: the Hillsong pastors. Remember we reported Hillsong pastor Carl Lentz
Speaker 1: in New York was happy to blow five thousand dollars
Speaker 1: on a dinner with celebrities. But for people like me,
Speaker 1: a financial reckoning is probably not going to happen. No
Speaker 1: one's going to get their tides back, are they or
Speaker 1: get help with therapy. But a simple acknowledgement of the
Speaker 1: past might be a start, because I don't see how
Speaker 1: Hillsong can fix things until it owns its past. Smoke
Speaker 1: and smoking beers. The track is Gritten and performed by
Speaker 1: my friend Janice Legata it's called Disneylands. It's all about
Speaker 1: her Hillsong experience. You don't have to believe to just
Speaker 1: drinking deep and don't forget to sing were Janice isn't
Speaker 1: hopeful that Hillsong will change, so she keeps on using
Speaker 1: her music, her blogs, her podcasts, and her videos to
Speaker 1: call out mega church culture. You can here. So in
Speaker 1: the beginning, it would have been enough for it to
Speaker 1: just just go out of business, But now it doesn't
Speaker 1: help as much as I would like. Because of every
Speaker 1: Hillsong campus closed tomorrow and they were just gone, probably
Speaker 1: eighty percent of those people would just gravitate to the
Speaker 1: next mega church like I'm not special. There are a
Speaker 1: thousand means Hill Songs not special. There are a thousand
Speaker 1: hill Songs like it's it's the system. We need to
Speaker 1: see the system kind of face justice. The leadership of Hillsong.
Speaker 1: Those people should have to account for what they did
Speaker 1: and offer true repentance and again reparation. But you know,
Speaker 1: so far a lot of these people, these bad actors
Speaker 1: Carl Lentz include it, right, They kind of have their moment,
Speaker 1: oh I'm no longer in Hillsong, and then they they
Speaker 1: just disappear and they go off and they continue living
Speaker 1: off of the money of the people they abused. Legally, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's very little at this point they could be done
Speaker 1: to make them pay up. But you know, if they
Speaker 1: want to keep moving from church to church, or they
Speaker 1: want to keep existing, I think it's just to keep shouting, well,
Speaker 1: hey what about these people over here. Hopefully people just
Speaker 1: see how they're treating the people who have left, and
Speaker 1: just see how they're not willing to help people heal. Hopefully,
Speaker 1: as more people see that, you know, if you want
Speaker 1: to stay in Hillsong, stay but stop giving your money.
Speaker 1: Some people have stopped going and some people have stopped giving.
Speaker 1: Hillsong finances have taken a hit. COVID has been a
Speaker 1: big factor. The annual report for Hillsong in Australia shows
Speaker 1: revenues was more than twelve percent in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. Hillsong is being replicated by other
Speaker 1: churches and the Fallen Stars. There's always a shout at
Speaker 1: Redemption and Hillsong Church itself. They didn't want to talk
Speaker 1: on the record, but this is what we know. They're
Speaker 1: working to promote the message that it's a church again,
Speaker 1: it's not a corporation. That the message is about God
Speaker 1: and that God is cleaning out the church. This is
Speaker 1: l Hardy, the journalist has been with me throughout the series.
Speaker 1: I've spoken to people close to the new Hillsong Board
Speaker 1: and they believe that they've implemented a new culture and
Speaker 1: that they're putting in place a more robust set of
Speaker 1: policies and procedures that's going to stop some of the
Speaker 1: problems happening again. They said that the Hillsong today is
Speaker 1: absolutely different from the Hillsong of a year ago, and
Speaker 1: Hillsong without Brian Houston doesn't look like the Hillsong of
Speaker 1: Brian Houston. They say that the services are different, that
Speaker 1: the celebrity cultures go on the expenses of being cut back.
Speaker 1: They're also saying things like Brian Houston was a micromanager.
Speaker 1: Everything had to go through him, no one ever knew
Speaker 1: really what was going on, and that it was this
Speaker 1: culture under Brian's leadership that became detrimental and toxic. They're
Speaker 1: keen to tell people that financial oversight has changed, that
Speaker 1: the old board was gutless. They're also saying that the
Speaker 1: big thing is that under the old system, the senior
Speaker 1: pastor had all the control. This is no longer the case,
Speaker 1: and complaints about senior passes should be dealt with externally
Speaker 1: and independently. They're talking about things like having psychological assessments
Speaker 1: come in for candidates and ministry, and they're pretty explicit
Speaker 1: that their old system failed. Well, what about the specific
Speaker 1: issues you raison the series we reported on serious allegations
Speaker 1: of abuse at Hillsong, New York. We know from the
Speaker 1: reports leaked to you that Hillsong's own lawyers recommended changes.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting to me because that report that came
Speaker 1: out of everything that went wrong and Hillsong on the
Speaker 1: East Coast was so damning about their culture and made
Speaker 1: some really explicit recommendations. But speaking to my contacts within Hillsong,
Speaker 1: it's really unclear whether these recommendations by their own lawyers
Speaker 1: have actually been implemented. And now some people are saying, oh,
Speaker 1: we've had a new review and we're putting in a
Speaker 1: whole lot of recommendations and procedures and policies in place
Speaker 1: based out of this new review. And this is being
Speaker 1: implemented right now. In fact, it should be complete by
Speaker 1: around August twenty twenty three. One thing that Hillsong is
Speaker 1: clear about is that a hypercharismatic preacher like Carl Lentz
Speaker 1: isn't going to happen again. They can't let someone get
Speaker 1: out of control and damage the church, no matter how
Speaker 1: many souls they bring through the door. It sounds to
Speaker 1: me like the messages the bad stuffers in the past. Yes,
Speaker 1: people got hurt, but trust us, it's all going to
Speaker 1: be different. But I still don't hear much acknowledgment of
Speaker 1: the hurt cause to people who've left. I'm talking about
Speaker 1: what i'd call spiritual abuse. Bostravijian is a lawyer who
Speaker 1: works with victims of church abuse. He's had professional experience
Speaker 1: with Hillsong. Yeah, so I wanted to ask a bit
Speaker 1: more of what does spiritual abuse or religious abuse? A
Speaker 1: lot of people define it differently. A lot of people
Speaker 1: use those two words interchangeably. But what does that look
Speaker 1: like for you in the legal sense. Yeah, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure if there's a set working definition of spiritual religious abuse.
Speaker 1: I think in the work that I've done, if I
Speaker 1: was to try to unpack that a little bit, I
Speaker 1: would say that it is the use of spiritual matters
Speaker 1: which could include community theology, teachings to abuse or disenfranchise others. Now,
Speaker 1: what does that mean? That can mean so many different things. So,
Speaker 1: for example, I believe that any form of sexual abuse
Speaker 1: is also a form of spiritual abuse, especially within the
Speaker 1: faith community. There's no way that you can have a
Speaker 1: spiritual leader engaging in sexual abuse of somebody under their
Speaker 1: care and there not be profound aspects of spiritual abuse.
Speaker 1: People believing that this is what God God wants, or
Speaker 1: that it's okay with God, or that you know, a
Speaker 1: twisting of theology to say and to justify that type
Speaker 1: of conduct which does just devastates individuals emotionally, physically, but
Speaker 1: also spiritually. I think that legally there really isn't a
Speaker 1: cause of action in the United States for spiritual abuse.
Speaker 1: I think that courts generally stay far away from that
Speaker 1: because courts generally don't like to get involved with theological
Speaker 1: disputes or ecclesiastical matters. So to say something spiritually abusive
Speaker 1: can be a nebulous term. I mean, I think anybody
Speaker 1: who's been spiritually abused gets it. But you know, there
Speaker 1: would be some people in the Christian world. You talk
Speaker 1: about a particular conduct and say that's spiritual abuse, and
Speaker 1: they would have no clue what you're talking about. They
Speaker 1: would say, no, that's not spiritual abuse. That's part of
Speaker 1: our belief or our faith system. And there'd be others
Speaker 1: who would say, oh my god, that's about as spiritual
Speaker 1: abuse of as you can get. Often in the work
Speaker 1: that you do, what is the most common type of
Speaker 1: case that you've seen in which you're able to find
Speaker 1: some form of accountability or justice. One thing people have
Speaker 1: to understand is a difference between criminal and civil law.
Speaker 1: Criminal law is when the government comes in and prosecutes
Speaker 1: or holds an individual or individuals accountable for committing crimes,
Speaker 1: and the ultimate consequence of a criminal case can be incarceration.
Speaker 1: On the other end, you have civil cases. Civil cases
Speaker 1: are private actions where one person and sues another based
Speaker 1: upon what we call a recognized cause of action, and
Speaker 1: in a civil case, the ultimate consequence is compensation, not incarceration.
Speaker 1: And the big difference between civil and criminal case is
Speaker 1: that in a civil case, the victim is in the
Speaker 1: driver's seat in the case, making the decisions. But what
Speaker 1: I look back on my cases were I think most
Speaker 1: of my clients and I think they would say this,
Speaker 1: that was the most positive and healing aspect of the process,
Speaker 1: and it's a difficult process, was the fact that they
Speaker 1: were empowered through the process to be a party, to
Speaker 1: step out of the shadows, to file a lawsuit with
Speaker 1: their name on it against that church or against that institution,
Speaker 1: to hold them accountable in some fashion, and to force
Speaker 1: them to higher lawyers, to force them to come to depositions,
Speaker 1: to force them to answer questions. That's very empowering and
Speaker 1: in essence healing. Who a lot of my clients who
Speaker 1: as you know, as a as a survivor, so much
Speaker 1: is taken away from you. Yeah. Often, power is like
Speaker 1: the biggest thing that I have to work on in therapy.
Speaker 1: I've been hearing a lot of folks, mainly on social media,
Speaker 1: when different things come out. The biggest thing that comes
Speaker 1: up is there a possibility for a class action lawsuit
Speaker 1: if we were to all come together to present the case.
Speaker 1: I know the burden of proof would be on us
Speaker 1: to show that there was intent, but what would that
Speaker 1: look like. I'm not a class action lawyer. Having said that,
Speaker 1: I really don't believe that these type of cases lend
Speaker 1: themselves to class action lawsuits. And the reason is that
Speaker 1: the primary objective of a class action lawsuit is really
Speaker 1: not financial. It's really to hold whatever entity, whether it's
Speaker 1: a you know, a company, business, a car manufacture, whatever,
Speaker 1: to hold them responsible to fix a problem. And what
Speaker 1: the secret about class action lawsuits is is that lawyers
Speaker 1: are the ones who benefit the most from class action lawsuits.
Speaker 1: Boz doesn't believe class action lawsuits are an answer, but
Speaker 1: he says individuals can bring legal action, and he believes
Speaker 1: that this can be a part of taking back power.
Speaker 1: The monetary damages can be economic and can be noneconomic,
Speaker 1: So pain and suffering damages. How do you even put
Speaker 1: a dollar a figure to that. One of the things
Speaker 1: that we think about, because a lot of my clients,
Speaker 1: which is which is a good thing, one of the
Speaker 1: things that get really uneasy talking about is money. And
Speaker 1: what I have to sort of gently push back on is, no,
Speaker 1: this is about money, because if you sat down and
Speaker 1: counted up the financial cost that this abuse has cost
Speaker 1: your life, it's significant, It's beyond significant. And so why
Speaker 1: in the world should you be, as the victim, be
Speaker 1: pulling out money from your wallet or your bank account
Speaker 1: many survivors who don't even have it. Why should you
Speaker 1: be having to do that when the one that's responsible
Speaker 1: or the entities that are responsible, should be doing that.
Speaker 1: That's part of why we sue churches and sue organizations
Speaker 1: because we're saying, listen, one way we hold you accountable
Speaker 1: is to make sure that you are going to compensate
Speaker 1: me for all of my loss, financial and non financial.
Speaker 1: When it comes to law and religion, accountability is elusive.
Speaker 1: Doctor Stephen Hassan is trying to come up with an answer.
Speaker 1: He spent more than forty years helping people get out
Speaker 1: of all types of authoritarian groups, religious cults, political cults,
Speaker 1: therapy cults, and multi level marketing groups. He's best known
Speaker 1: for his work on something called the Bite model. You
Speaker 1: can check it out on his website. But to explain
Speaker 1: it simply, it's a list of red flags, a checklist
Speaker 1: of characteristics of mind control. Well, I believe everyone should
Speaker 1: understand stand the influence continuum and Bite model, and they
Speaker 1: should understand the qualities of most cult leaders is malignant narcissism.
Speaker 1: And what I advocate is people be good consumers. So
Speaker 1: if they're being invited to something that they should do
Speaker 1: an independent investigation, not depend on the recruiters. To give
Speaker 1: you information. And the simplest thing these days with Google
Speaker 1: is to put the name in quotes of the group,
Speaker 1: the name of the leader in quotes. Then you do
Speaker 1: plus cult or plus scam, plus brainwashing, plus x members.
Speaker 1: And don't just settle for the first page, go ten
Speaker 1: pages in because most of the big cults manipulate search
Speaker 1: engines because they know most people won't look more than
Speaker 1: three pages on Google. But the other thing is so
Speaker 1: research the leader, the story, and so you want to
Speaker 1: ask hard questions. And most cult leaders go for power, money,
Speaker 1: and sex, and some want all three. And you want
Speaker 1: to get involved with a religious group where the leader
Speaker 1: isn't me me, me, Me, Me me. You want the
Speaker 1: centrality to be focused on helping lift up members and
Speaker 1: support them and teach love rather than hate. And if
Speaker 1: a group's legitimate, it will stand up to scrutiny. So
Speaker 1: you know, allow your inner gut or your inner voice,
Speaker 1: it's saying there's something wrong here, listen to yourself and
Speaker 1: reality test. When he was nineteen, Stephen was recruited into
Speaker 1: a cult, the Moonies. His experience motivated him to try
Speaker 1: and change the legal system. He wants those who exercise
Speaker 1: destructive mind control to be held criminally accountable. It's become
Speaker 1: a mission and a crusade for forty six years, and
Speaker 1: the last seven years I've been focusing on getting a
Speaker 1: doctorate and trying to create a formula that judges and
Speaker 1: juries can use to evaluate undue influence in courts of law,
Speaker 1: because I feel that what is being done should be illegal.
Speaker 1: There's a long way to go before we see any
Speaker 1: legal changes. But Stephen Hassan's focus is also on recovery,
Speaker 1: and a part of that is dealing with guilt. So
Speaker 1: I think that one should own the fact that you
Speaker 1: did interfere with other people's lives and perhaps cause great harm,
Speaker 1: but also acknowledge you were doing the best you could
Speaker 1: with the information and experiences you had. You were believing
Speaker 1: you were doing a good thing. And so it starts
Speaker 1: with not having a black and white judgment on your
Speaker 1: younger self. But here's what I tell all of my
Speaker 1: clients as a therapist. I say, the key to recovering
Speaker 1: from destructive mind control is controlling your own mind. I
Speaker 1: ask people to answer, if they knew then what they
Speaker 1: know now, what would they have said or done differently. So,
Speaker 1: in the case of the younger me when I was nineteen.
Speaker 1: If Steve knew these women were moonies and they were
Speaker 1: going to ask them to drop out of college and
Speaker 1: become a right wing fascist, I would have told them, no,
Speaker 1: you can't sit at my table. In fact, get the
Speaker 1: hell off my campus. I'm calling security. So the idea
Speaker 1: is I'm empowering my clients to heal themselves. And the
Speaker 1: critical thing is to be in your body, to be
Speaker 1: in the now and have goals for the future that
Speaker 1: can be very positive and attractive to you that you
Speaker 1: have a future you want to live. We can rewire
Speaker 1: our brains to be the way we want to be now.
Speaker 1: I was told by a professor at this forensic think
Speaker 1: tank I've been a part of at Harvard. He said,
Speaker 1: if you really want to change the law, you need
Speaker 1: a doctor at Steve, and you need to do a
Speaker 1: quantitative study or in your model to prove that it
Speaker 1: has efficacy. And I said, Michael, I'm sixty three, and
Speaker 1: he said I'm seventy seven. Do you want to change
Speaker 1: the law or not? And I was like, damn, I
Speaker 1: guess I'm gonna go back to school and crack the
Speaker 1: textbooks and learn. And it turned out to be one
Speaker 1: of the best choices I made because I got smarter.
Speaker 1: And that's one thing I hope you'll take away from
Speaker 1: false prophets. All of us, even the smartest people, can
Speaker 1: fall for stuff. But what about some of the people
Speaker 1: we've met in this series. How did the Hillsong experience
Speaker 1: affect their lives and faith? Oludharado was part of Hillsong,
Speaker 1: New York, New Jersey, and Los Angeles. So my relationship
Speaker 1: to faith is that you know it exists. I still
Speaker 1: believe in Jesus, but I'm definitely not part of a church.
Speaker 1: I don't plan to be part of a church ever. Again.
Speaker 1: I do believe churches do do good, but for me,
Speaker 1: the damage that can be done to the individual supersedes
Speaker 1: the good that it does overall. So for me personally,
Speaker 1: I can't do it. I just can't be a part
Speaker 1: of a church at all. I really just don't think
Speaker 1: they are safe spaces for people who aren't white. And
Speaker 1: after I left the church, I definitely was scared that
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be as close to God or my faith,
Speaker 1: and that was proven wrong. I didn't necessarily need to
Speaker 1: be part of a church to be close to God
Speaker 1: or to have strong faith. Racism came up a lot
Speaker 1: in this series. Who Song says on its website that
Speaker 1: it's woken up to diversity and inclusion issues. Also says
Speaker 1: that their new board is more diverse. And what about
Speaker 1: people who work for really low wages for Hillsong pastors
Speaker 1: and left feeling exploited? How do they feel now? Megan
Speaker 1: Fallon was one of the nannies and volunteers at Hillsong
Speaker 1: New York. She moved to San Francisco and she gave
Speaker 1: birth to twin daughters soon after talking to us. I
Speaker 1: don't know the answer that what Hillsong could do to
Speaker 1: get better, but I know it starts with like listening
Speaker 1: to the people that they've hurt. And I just am
Speaker 1: a firm believer that like, if your intentions are good,
Speaker 1: you can go into any situation and spin it around.
Speaker 1: But you know, this church and these people are hurting
Speaker 1: or have hurt a lot of folks, and so just
Speaker 1: be careful and if you did feel like it's time
Speaker 1: to leave, like trust that gut feeling the first time
Speaker 1: you feel it. And there's a lot of us kind
Speaker 1: of on the other side that there's like a lot
Speaker 1: of support out there now, which is really awesome. Hillsong
Speaker 1: isn't going to engage with us. We are the past.
Speaker 1: I guess it says the Hillsong of today is not
Speaker 1: the Hillsong of Brian Houston. Ashley Easter has been with
Speaker 1: us through the series. She's an abuse survivor and an
Speaker 1: advocate for victims. In her experience, powerful people don't change.
Speaker 1: The people that you're dealing with in these church systems
Speaker 1: are not like you most of the time. They do
Speaker 1: not have the same kind of empathy you have most
Speaker 1: of the time. They're not driven by the same care
Speaker 1: for other people that you are driven by. And so
Speaker 1: don't be disillusioned that talking about the problem and bringing
Speaker 1: up these issues is going to some help tug at
Speaker 1: their heartstrings and they're going to want to do the
Speaker 1: right thing. So focus more on what you can do
Speaker 1: for survivors and to advance the cause of survivors and
Speaker 1: protecting other people from getting in these situations. In the beginning,
Speaker 1: I used to think that AVOCA to see work. The
Speaker 1: goal was to maybe change the systems or the churches,
Speaker 1: or maybe get the pastors to listen. I don't believe
Speaker 1: that that's the goal anymore. I think the goal that
Speaker 1: realized now is really just to empower the survivor community
Speaker 1: and to sound the alarm so it doesn't happen to
Speaker 1: other people, so they can make decisions to keep themselves safe.
Speaker 1: And to be able to have your story told and
Speaker 1: validated by a community, and to warn other people. I
Speaker 1: think those are some huge winds that we're seeing in
Speaker 1: the survivor community as a whole. What about my personal
Speaker 1: story and queer identity? No sign of change there from Hillsong.
Speaker 1: Will Hillsong affirm gay people? The message we're getting is no,
Speaker 1: will gay people be accepted in leadership roles? No? Will
Speaker 1: Hillsong be more clear on their message? The sign we're
Speaker 1: getting is no. But the message is still welcome home,
Speaker 1: you belong here. It's time for a final catch up
Speaker 1: with Oh Hardy. We're not surprised that Hillsong doesn't want
Speaker 1: to talk on the record. From your perspective, does it
Speaker 1: look any different to the Hillsong that you left? To
Speaker 1: be honest, I guess different in terms of the leader
Speaker 1: at the front, the person holding the mic, But in
Speaker 1: terms of systems, I see it the same, Like nothing
Speaker 1: has changed. The system was founded the way it was
Speaker 1: and they liked it the way it was and it's
Speaker 1: not going to shift from that. Yeah, I've also been wondering,
Speaker 1: I mean, for you, is there going to be a
Speaker 1: point where you draw a line and say, Hillsong is
Speaker 1: so far in the revision mirror now I'm not thinking
Speaker 1: about it talking about it anymore, Like are you ever
Speaker 1: gonna have you ever sort of set that point for
Speaker 1: yourself or are you just kind of just kind of
Speaker 1: rolling with it. That's a great question. I think as
Speaker 1: a person of color, as a queer person, when you
Speaker 1: go through experiences, you often and to use your story
Speaker 1: in order to advocate for change, and knowing that things
Speaker 1: are not going to change in terms of LGBTQ policies,
Speaker 1: if they were to change our LGBTQ policies, then I'd
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, my work is done. But if they
Speaker 1: didn't until the day they change their LGBTQ policies and
Speaker 1: actually say we do not affirm LGBTQ people within their website,
Speaker 1: make it loud and clear that they are homophobic, then
Speaker 1: I will stop talking. I think that's the line I'm
Speaker 1: going to draw, But for now that hasn't happened, So
Speaker 1: I'm going to continue to do it. That's really admirable.
Speaker 1: I think it's really cool if you're still energized by it.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think like you have to have a
Speaker 1: good sense of division within your life. I have the
Speaker 1: Noemi that goes to work, the Noemi that goes to
Speaker 1: advocate for LGBTQ people within the work that I do
Speaker 1: outside of all of this, and then there's a Noemi
Speaker 1: that speaks out within this podcast or within Hillsong Realms.
Speaker 1: Once I walk out of here, I'm gonna take a
Speaker 1: deep breath and say, Okay, now let's go have fun.
Speaker 1: I don't need to carry this all day with me.
Speaker 1: But it takes years for things to change when you're
Speaker 1: speaking out, and it hurts and it's sad, but it's
Speaker 1: the reality of how Hillsong had us before, where Hillsong
Speaker 1: was our whole life. So then to now have it
Speaker 1: only be a small part of your life where you're
Speaker 1: speaking out, that's really hard to make that division. But
Speaker 1: I think it's also empowering to do that, to place
Speaker 1: that situation in a little box and to be able
Speaker 1: to go have fun. I think, honestly, that's the best
Speaker 1: form of revenge. That's the best form of justice and
Speaker 1: accountability that I have found within to be able to
Speaker 1: pick up and be happy. Yeah, you got a smile
Speaker 1: an her face. Man, it's the hard work of healing. Awesome. Yeah,
Speaker 1: should we see? Yeah, let's go. Look. I want to
Speaker 1: get a flag. This is New York Pride twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: my first time here. For me, it feels like the
Speaker 1: best end to my story. We started the Pride Parade
Speaker 1: just a couple of blocks from Hillsong Church. It no
Speaker 1: longer has the power to hurt me. It's fun. Welcome
Speaker 1: to my life. It all came together and it all
Speaker 1: became even more special and monumental in my life. When
Speaker 1: I was able to walk in the Pride Parade, I
Speaker 1: got to take back the start and finish where I
Speaker 1: wanted to finish, without someone telling me where to go
Speaker 1: or what to do, and telling me who I could
Speaker 1: or couldn't love. I think that for me was very special.
Speaker 1: You could hear Teddy barking in the back. He also
Speaker 1: believes it was special, even though he didn't go. It
Speaker 1: brings me to tears because I went through so many
Speaker 1: dark nights and to just hear myself embrace all of
Speaker 1: me in that parade and just like seeing the people
Speaker 1: around cheering and like embracing and yelling and accepting me
Speaker 1: was like a very big contrast in comparison to my
Speaker 1: experience at a Hillsong where I was told to complete opposite.
Speaker 1: So yeah, a lot of emotions. I started the series
Speaker 1: wanting to do this, get answers from Hillsong. I'm still
Speaker 1: waiting to shine a light on things Hillsong didn't want
Speaker 1: to see. We've done that, and to take back power.
Speaker 1: This march and this series was definitely a take back
Speaker 1: from me. I'm nomoibe and this is false prophets, and
Speaker 1: I want to thank everyone who shared their stories with me.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to l Hardy. The series producer was Louise Cotton,
Speaker 1: Assistant producer was Leo Schick. Thanks to our executive producer
Speaker 1: Alex Holland's sound design was by David Thomas. Location production
Speaker 1: in Australia was by Sharon Davies and thanks to our
Speaker 1: production manager Carrie Louder. The development producer was Naomi Harvey.
Speaker 1: False Prophets Hillsong is a story Glass production and is
Speaker 1: distributed by iHeartRadio. The executive producer from iHeartRadio is Dylan Fagan,
Speaker 1: with special thanks to beth N Macaluso.