WEBVTT - A Reckoning 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:10.719 Here's the question. Has Hillsong changed, Has it listened to critics, 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:14.720 has it listened to people like me? I left Hillsong 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:18.000 two years ago. I started working on this series more 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:20.320 than a year ago, and now I know a whole 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:25.080 lot more. In the past seven episodes of False Prophets, 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:29.880 we've heard stories of all kinds of abuse, spiritual, sexual, 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:34.320 and economic. The Hillsong I knew did not challenge abuse 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:38.680 of behavior by star preachers instead of protected the brand. 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:42.480 I'm no Emmy would ebit. And this is the final 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:46.680 episode of False Prophets, and I'm asking can there be justice? 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:58.080 It's a Sunday, which means that today Hillsong had their service. 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:03.720 And I don't feel like I owe the bunny thing. 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:09.200 I don't feel weird being here anymore. This is the 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:12.319 Boston Commons, the park where I took my dog Teddy. 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:17.160 We're not far from Royale, the nightclub that gets transformed 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:21.800 into Hillsong Church every week. After leaving the church, for 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:24.920 some time, I wouldn't go out. I was living outside 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:29.400 of the city and I would get panic attacks if 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:33.360 I ran into someone, and I wanted it to be 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:37.160 my home again and not feel like I was invading 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:40.520 a place, or I was out of place, and so 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:43.279 I moved into the city, into the Back Bay area, 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:49.480 close to this park. And I've been here for a 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:55.000 year or so, and honestly, now I feel so much 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:58.640 more confidence to just walk on the street. And now 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:00.720 I'm able to contin They need to live in the 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:06.640 city knowing that Hillsong Church is still here. You know, 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.160 my hope speaking out is that they will cease to 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:15.320 exist as a church organization. But for now, for now 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:33.520 Boston is my city again. I can enjoy life. Hillsong 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.960 has made it clear they are not prepared to engage 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.680 with people who want it to close down, and they 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:44.919 won't discuss individual grievances. Hillsong needs to face a simple fact. 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.760 When people get hurt by religion, there's no quick fix. 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.679 The church wants to move on. Brian Houston is out, 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:56.000 a new leadership is in, but that's not the end 0:02:56.120 --> 0:03:01.120 for many of us. Trauma stays with you. I'm going 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:03.440 to go back to a guy named Andrew to help 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:08.080 you understand. In March of twenty twenty two, and media 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:13.400 reports of Brian Houston's stepping down from church, those media 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:17.239 reports created a setup in so many different ways for 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:21.600 my body to relive exactly what it was like at 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:26.160 twenty to come out and lose everything. It's nearly twenty 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:29.840 years since Andrew was shamed, tormented, and rejected when he 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:32.680 came out as a gay man in Hillsong. He's built 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:36.720 a successful and happy life since then. But when Hillsong 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:41.000 scandals hit the news headlines, the past came flooding back. 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:45.760 My body felt like a prison. I had rashes all 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:49.600 over my feet, a rash all over my face. My 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:55.000 body became inflamed. My chest felt like it had metal 0:03:55.120 --> 0:04:01.280 wire trapping it. And it is astounding to me that 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:08.119 after all of these years, my buddy is remembering that isolation, 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:14.080 that threat to my existence. I can see why some 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:18.080 people have not been able to survive these experiences. Andrew 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:21.480 never had an apology from Hillsong, and I don't think 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.880 he ever will. We asked Hillsong to respond to the 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:29.920 issues raised in this series. So far, Hillsong has decided 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.520 not to respond on the record or on tape. The 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.920 church wants to tell a story of renewal and change, 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.320 but for me, renew means a lot of hard work. 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.960 Healing takes time, and it comes at a financial cost. 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:50.279 You can't talk about Hillsong for long without bringing up 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:54.840 money because it's obviously a really big issue. And if 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:58.640 I could, I would definitely submit an invoice for a 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.360 refund for all the day images and all of the 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:05.760 work and free labor that I gave. That would be amazing. 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:08.960 I would definitely get a lot of money back. So 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:13.599 I did put together an Excel spreadsheet with all my costs, 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:17.120 and so I like to now jokingly say that it's 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:21.800 my invoice for that one year that I spent recovering 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:28.440 from being at Hillsong, Texas twenty twenty medical expenses here 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:34.080 we go. So I divided it between medical expenses and 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.840 ESA expenses because Teddy at the time was my emotional 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:43.920 support animal. Just for Teddy. The grand total was one thousand, 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:49.200 seven hundred and fifty six with sixteen cents and for 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:54.840 medical cost this included just regular PCP visits, and I 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:59.359 needed more than the usual in going to my psychiatric doctor, 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:04.200 going to my therapist, dental. A lot of people don't 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.560 talk about this, but mental health can really affect your 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:11.880 teeth with grinding and your gums swell. It could be 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:15.200 pretty dangerous. I had to get a lot of work done, 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.520 and I still go every three months. The usual is 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.320 every six months, so I actually have a lot of 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:23.760 costs that add up there. So with all of that 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:28.560 together in twenty twenty added to two thousand, five hundred 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:32.880 and six dollars with fifty seven cents, And honestly, that 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.680 seems really low to me because I had a good 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:39.359 insurance that year, luckily, and it covered a good portion, 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.600 but I still had to pay twenty five hundred dollars 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:49.000 out of pocket. Twenty five hundred dollars is a lot 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:52.240 to me, It probably wasn't a lot to some of 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:57.560 the Hillsong pastors. Remember we reported Hillsong pastor Carl Lentz 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.800 in New York was happy to blow five thousand dollars 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:04.000 on a dinner with celebrities. But for people like me, 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:07.920 a financial reckoning is probably not going to happen. No 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.480 one's going to get their tides back, are they or 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:14.360 get help with therapy. But a simple acknowledgement of the 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:18.040 past might be a start, because I don't see how 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:22.160 Hillsong can fix things until it owns its past. Smoke 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:30.200 and smoking beers. The track is Gritten and performed by 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:37.920 my friend Janice Legata it's called Disneylands. It's all about 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:44.560 her Hillsong experience. You don't have to believe to just 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:51.000 drinking deep and don't forget to sing were Janice isn't 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:56.240 hopeful that Hillsong will change, so she keeps on using 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:59.640 her music, her blogs, her podcasts, and her videos to 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:16.800 call out mega church culture. You can here. So in 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:18.680 the beginning, it would have been enough for it to 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:24.880 just just go out of business, But now it doesn't 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:26.600 help as much as I would like. Because of every 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:31.000 Hillsong campus closed tomorrow and they were just gone, probably 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:33.800 eighty percent of those people would just gravitate to the 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:37.520 next mega church like I'm not special. There are a 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.199 thousand means Hill Songs not special. There are a thousand 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:43.480 hill Songs like it's it's the system. We need to 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:48.079 see the system kind of face justice. The leadership of Hillsong. 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.360 Those people should have to account for what they did 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:57.240 and offer true repentance and again reparation. But you know, 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:00.760 so far a lot of these people, these bad actors 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:05.319 Carl Lentz include it, right, They kind of have their moment, 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:09.280 oh I'm no longer in Hillsong, and then they they 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.120 just disappear and they go off and they continue living 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:16.960 off of the money of the people they abused. Legally, Yeah, 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.400 there's very little at this point they could be done 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.440 to make them pay up. But you know, if they 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.120 want to keep moving from church to church, or they 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:28.559 want to keep existing, I think it's just to keep shouting, well, 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:32.959 hey what about these people over here. Hopefully people just 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:35.319 see how they're treating the people who have left, and 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:39.079 just see how they're not willing to help people heal. Hopefully, 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:41.600 as more people see that, you know, if you want 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:45.280 to stay in Hillsong, stay but stop giving your money. 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.319 Some people have stopped going and some people have stopped giving. 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.959 Hillsong finances have taken a hit. COVID has been a 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:58.720 big factor. The annual report for Hillsong in Australia shows 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:02.439 revenues was more than twelve percent in twenty twenty one. 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:06.680 But here's the thing. Hillsong is being replicated by other 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:10.560 churches and the Fallen Stars. There's always a shout at 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:14.760 Redemption and Hillsong Church itself. They didn't want to talk 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.480 on the record, but this is what we know. They're 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:20.520 working to promote the message that it's a church again, 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:24.600 it's not a corporation. That the message is about God 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:28.079 and that God is cleaning out the church. This is 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:31.360 l Hardy, the journalist has been with me throughout the series. 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:34.200 I've spoken to people close to the new Hillsong Board 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:38.480 and they believe that they've implemented a new culture and 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.439 that they're putting in place a more robust set of 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:44.480 policies and procedures that's going to stop some of the 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:48.319 problems happening again. They said that the Hillsong today is 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.360 absolutely different from the Hillsong of a year ago, and 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:54.760 Hillsong without Brian Houston doesn't look like the Hillsong of 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:58.760 Brian Houston. They say that the services are different, that 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:02.720 the celebrity cultures go on the expenses of being cut back. 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.360 They're also saying things like Brian Houston was a micromanager. 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:09.520 Everything had to go through him, no one ever knew 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.400 really what was going on, and that it was this 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:17.240 culture under Brian's leadership that became detrimental and toxic. They're 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:21.640 keen to tell people that financial oversight has changed, that 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:24.839 the old board was gutless. They're also saying that the 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.360 big thing is that under the old system, the senior 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.520 pastor had all the control. This is no longer the case, 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.720 and complaints about senior passes should be dealt with externally 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:38.439 and independently. They're talking about things like having psychological assessments 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:42.400 come in for candidates and ministry, and they're pretty explicit 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:46.680 that their old system failed. Well, what about the specific 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:51.120 issues you raison the series we reported on serious allegations 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:54.040 of abuse at Hillsong, New York. We know from the 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:58.280 reports leaked to you that Hillsong's own lawyers recommended changes. 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.640 It's really interesting to me because that report that came 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:04.199 out of everything that went wrong and Hillsong on the 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:09.080 East Coast was so damning about their culture and made 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:13.880 some really explicit recommendations. But speaking to my contacts within Hillsong, 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:18.040 it's really unclear whether these recommendations by their own lawyers 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:22.199 have actually been implemented. And now some people are saying, oh, 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.160 we've had a new review and we're putting in a 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:28.720 whole lot of recommendations and procedures and policies in place 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.880 based out of this new review. And this is being 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:35.160 implemented right now. In fact, it should be complete by 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:38.839 around August twenty twenty three. One thing that Hillsong is 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.640 clear about is that a hypercharismatic preacher like Carl Lentz 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:46.719 isn't going to happen again. They can't let someone get 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.760 out of control and damage the church, no matter how 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:53.400 many souls they bring through the door. It sounds to 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:57.760 me like the messages the bad stuffers in the past. Yes, 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.640 people got hurt, but trust us, it's all going to 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:04.040 be different. But I still don't hear much acknowledgment of 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:08.120 the hurt cause to people who've left. I'm talking about 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:13.080 what i'd call spiritual abuse. Bostravijian is a lawyer who 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:16.760 works with victims of church abuse. He's had professional experience 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.520 with Hillsong. Yeah, so I wanted to ask a bit 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:24.679 more of what does spiritual abuse or religious abuse? A 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.360 lot of people define it differently. A lot of people 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:29.640 use those two words interchangeably. But what does that look 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:33.120 like for you in the legal sense. Yeah, I'm not 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:37.680 sure if there's a set working definition of spiritual religious abuse. 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.400 I think in the work that I've done, if I 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:42.800 was to try to unpack that a little bit, I 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:46.920 would say that it is the use of spiritual matters 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:56.400 which could include community theology, teachings to abuse or disenfranchise others. Now, 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:58.800 what does that mean? That can mean so many different things. So, 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:02.320 for example, I believe that any form of sexual abuse 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:07.120 is also a form of spiritual abuse, especially within the 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.040 faith community. There's no way that you can have a 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:13.960 spiritual leader engaging in sexual abuse of somebody under their 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:18.760 care and there not be profound aspects of spiritual abuse. 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.560 People believing that this is what God God wants, or 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.040 that it's okay with God, or that you know, a 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:30.440 twisting of theology to say and to justify that type 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:36.080 of conduct which does just devastates individuals emotionally, physically, but 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:42.440 also spiritually. I think that legally there really isn't a 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.880 cause of action in the United States for spiritual abuse. 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:49.680 I think that courts generally stay far away from that 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.400 because courts generally don't like to get involved with theological 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:59.720 disputes or ecclesiastical matters. So to say something spiritually abusive 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:02.720 can be a nebulous term. I mean, I think anybody 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.680 who's been spiritually abused gets it. But you know, there 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:08.680 would be some people in the Christian world. You talk 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:12.320 about a particular conduct and say that's spiritual abuse, and 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:14.240 they would have no clue what you're talking about. They 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.760 would say, no, that's not spiritual abuse. That's part of 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:19.360 our belief or our faith system. And there'd be others 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:21.600 who would say, oh my god, that's about as spiritual 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.440 abuse of as you can get. Often in the work 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:28.040 that you do, what is the most common type of 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:32.040 case that you've seen in which you're able to find 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.840 some form of accountability or justice. One thing people have 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.600 to understand is a difference between criminal and civil law. 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:44.760 Criminal law is when the government comes in and prosecutes 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.760 or holds an individual or individuals accountable for committing crimes, 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:53.760 and the ultimate consequence of a criminal case can be incarceration. 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:57.600 On the other end, you have civil cases. Civil cases 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:01.720 are private actions where one person and sues another based 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:05.240 upon what we call a recognized cause of action, and 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:11.840 in a civil case, the ultimate consequence is compensation, not incarceration. 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:15.400 And the big difference between civil and criminal case is 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:17.960 that in a civil case, the victim is in the 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.480 driver's seat in the case, making the decisions. But what 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.520 I look back on my cases were I think most 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:26.760 of my clients and I think they would say this, 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:31.920 that was the most positive and healing aspect of the process, 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.000 and it's a difficult process, was the fact that they 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:39.440 were empowered through the process to be a party, to 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.360 step out of the shadows, to file a lawsuit with 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:46.800 their name on it against that church or against that institution, 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:50.640 to hold them accountable in some fashion, and to force 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.920 them to higher lawyers, to force them to come to depositions, 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:58.120 to force them to answer questions. That's very empowering and 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:01.480 in essence healing. Who a lot of my clients who 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:04.320 as you know, as a as a survivor, so much 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.159 is taken away from you. Yeah. Often, power is like 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.880 the biggest thing that I have to work on in therapy. 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.680 I've been hearing a lot of folks, mainly on social media, 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:17.200 when different things come out. The biggest thing that comes 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:20.640 up is there a possibility for a class action lawsuit 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:24.640 if we were to all come together to present the case. 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.239 I know the burden of proof would be on us 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:29.240 to show that there was intent, but what would that 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:33.760 look like. I'm not a class action lawyer. Having said that, 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.360 I really don't believe that these type of cases lend 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.840 themselves to class action lawsuits. And the reason is that 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.120 the primary objective of a class action lawsuit is really 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.959 not financial. It's really to hold whatever entity, whether it's 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:51.240 a you know, a company, business, a car manufacture, whatever, 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:54.840 to hold them responsible to fix a problem. And what 0:17:55.000 --> 0:18:00.199 the secret about class action lawsuits is is that lawyers 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:02.640 are the ones who benefit the most from class action lawsuits. 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:06.680 Boz doesn't believe class action lawsuits are an answer, but 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.800 he says individuals can bring legal action, and he believes 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.280 that this can be a part of taking back power. 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:17.600 The monetary damages can be economic and can be noneconomic, 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:20.240 So pain and suffering damages. How do you even put 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.080 a dollar a figure to that. One of the things 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:25.919 that we think about, because a lot of my clients, 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:27.359 which is which is a good thing, one of the 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:30.440 things that get really uneasy talking about is money. And 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:34.040 what I have to sort of gently push back on is, no, 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.560 this is about money, because if you sat down and 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:45.480 counted up the financial cost that this abuse has cost 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:50.360 your life, it's significant, It's beyond significant. And so why 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.399 in the world should you be, as the victim, be 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:57.840 pulling out money from your wallet or your bank account 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.680 many survivors who don't even have it. Why should you 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:05.040 be having to do that when the one that's responsible 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:08.200 or the entities that are responsible, should be doing that. 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:12.080 That's part of why we sue churches and sue organizations 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:15.560 because we're saying, listen, one way we hold you accountable 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.640 is to make sure that you are going to compensate 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:22.760 me for all of my loss, financial and non financial. 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.800 When it comes to law and religion, accountability is elusive. 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.240 Doctor Stephen Hassan is trying to come up with an answer. 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:35.000 He spent more than forty years helping people get out 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:39.679 of all types of authoritarian groups, religious cults, political cults, 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:44.280 therapy cults, and multi level marketing groups. He's best known 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.639 for his work on something called the Bite model. You 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:50.600 can check it out on his website. But to explain 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:54.240 it simply, it's a list of red flags, a checklist 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:59.359 of characteristics of mind control. Well, I believe everyone should 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:04.000 understand stand the influence continuum and Bite model, and they 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:10.000 should understand the qualities of most cult leaders is malignant narcissism. 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:15.440 And what I advocate is people be good consumers. So 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:19.560 if they're being invited to something that they should do 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:24.120 an independent investigation, not depend on the recruiters. To give 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:28.760 you information. And the simplest thing these days with Google 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:31.720 is to put the name in quotes of the group, 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.200 the name of the leader in quotes. Then you do 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:42.000 plus cult or plus scam, plus brainwashing, plus x members. 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:46.200 And don't just settle for the first page, go ten 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:50.480 pages in because most of the big cults manipulate search 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:54.080 engines because they know most people won't look more than 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:57.879 three pages on Google. But the other thing is so 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:01.840 research the leader, the story, and so you want to 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:06.160 ask hard questions. And most cult leaders go for power, money, 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:09.960 and sex, and some want all three. And you want 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:12.880 to get involved with a religious group where the leader 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:15.920 isn't me me, me, Me, Me me. You want the 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:21.440 centrality to be focused on helping lift up members and 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:25.680 support them and teach love rather than hate. And if 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:28.720 a group's legitimate, it will stand up to scrutiny. So 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:33.600 you know, allow your inner gut or your inner voice, 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:37.159 it's saying there's something wrong here, listen to yourself and 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:41.800 reality test. When he was nineteen, Stephen was recruited into 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:46.200 a cult, the Moonies. His experience motivated him to try 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:50.400 and change the legal system. He wants those who exercise 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:55.320 destructive mind control to be held criminally accountable. It's become 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:59.119 a mission and a crusade for forty six years, and 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:02.879 the last seven years I've been focusing on getting a 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:08.840 doctorate and trying to create a formula that judges and 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:13.480 juries can use to evaluate undue influence in courts of law, 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:17.920 because I feel that what is being done should be illegal. 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:21.080 There's a long way to go before we see any 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:25.640 legal changes. But Stephen Hassan's focus is also on recovery, 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:28.920 and a part of that is dealing with guilt. So 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:33.280 I think that one should own the fact that you 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:39.040 did interfere with other people's lives and perhaps cause great harm, 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:43.400 but also acknowledge you were doing the best you could 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:47.760 with the information and experiences you had. You were believing 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:51.360 you were doing a good thing. And so it starts 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.120 with not having a black and white judgment on your 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:58.440 younger self. But here's what I tell all of my 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:03.000 clients as a therapist. I say, the key to recovering 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:07.960 from destructive mind control is controlling your own mind. I 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:12.919 ask people to answer, if they knew then what they 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:17.399 know now, what would they have said or done differently. So, 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:20.800 in the case of the younger me when I was nineteen. 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:24.800 If Steve knew these women were moonies and they were 0:23:24.880 --> 0:23:26.879 going to ask them to drop out of college and 0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:29.720 become a right wing fascist, I would have told them, no, 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:32.480 you can't sit at my table. In fact, get the 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:36.640 hell off my campus. I'm calling security. So the idea 0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:41.960 is I'm empowering my clients to heal themselves. And the 0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:44.879 critical thing is to be in your body, to be 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:49.680 in the now and have goals for the future that 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:53.600 can be very positive and attractive to you that you 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:57.320 have a future you want to live. We can rewire 0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:00.520 our brains to be the way we want to be now. 0:24:01.800 --> 0:24:05.120 I was told by a professor at this forensic think 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:07.520 tank I've been a part of at Harvard. He said, 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:09.640 if you really want to change the law, you need 0:24:09.680 --> 0:24:12.200 a doctor at Steve, and you need to do a 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:15.200 quantitative study or in your model to prove that it 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:20.080 has efficacy. And I said, Michael, I'm sixty three, and 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:23.119 he said I'm seventy seven. Do you want to change 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:27.240 the law or not? And I was like, damn, I 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:31.960 guess I'm gonna go back to school and crack the 0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:35.679 textbooks and learn. And it turned out to be one 0:24:35.720 --> 0:24:39.040 of the best choices I made because I got smarter. 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:41.479 And that's one thing I hope you'll take away from 0:24:41.520 --> 0:24:45.159 false prophets. All of us, even the smartest people, can 0:24:45.240 --> 0:24:48.080 fall for stuff. But what about some of the people 0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:51.400 we've met in this series. How did the Hillsong experience 0:24:51.480 --> 0:24:55.879 affect their lives and faith? Oludharado was part of Hillsong, 0:24:56.000 --> 0:25:00.000 New York, New Jersey, and Los Angeles. So my relationship 0:25:00.240 --> 0:25:04.000 to faith is that you know it exists. I still 0:25:04.080 --> 0:25:08.200 believe in Jesus, but I'm definitely not part of a church. 0:25:08.640 --> 0:25:10.720 I don't plan to be part of a church ever. Again. 0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:14.560 I do believe churches do do good, but for me, 0:25:15.160 --> 0:25:18.800 the damage that can be done to the individual supersedes 0:25:19.040 --> 0:25:23.359 the good that it does overall. So for me personally, 0:25:23.760 --> 0:25:26.000 I can't do it. I just can't be a part 0:25:26.040 --> 0:25:28.640 of a church at all. I really just don't think 0:25:28.680 --> 0:25:32.720 they are safe spaces for people who aren't white. And 0:25:33.440 --> 0:25:38.320 after I left the church, I definitely was scared that 0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:41.840 I wouldn't be as close to God or my faith, 0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:45.760 and that was proven wrong. I didn't necessarily need to 0:25:45.840 --> 0:25:48.880 be part of a church to be close to God 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:52.080 or to have strong faith. Racism came up a lot 0:25:52.160 --> 0:25:55.560 in this series. Who Song says on its website that 0:25:55.760 --> 0:26:00.520 it's woken up to diversity and inclusion issues. Also says 0:26:00.600 --> 0:26:03.680 that their new board is more diverse. And what about 0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:06.879 people who work for really low wages for Hillsong pastors 0:26:07.080 --> 0:26:11.960 and left feeling exploited? How do they feel now? Megan 0:26:12.040 --> 0:26:15.080 Fallon was one of the nannies and volunteers at Hillsong 0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:18.520 New York. She moved to San Francisco and she gave 0:26:18.600 --> 0:26:21.480 birth to twin daughters soon after talking to us. I 0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:23.840 don't know the answer that what Hillsong could do to 0:26:23.960 --> 0:26:26.720 get better, but I know it starts with like listening 0:26:26.840 --> 0:26:29.959 to the people that they've hurt. And I just am 0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:32.480 a firm believer that like, if your intentions are good, 0:26:32.600 --> 0:26:35.439 you can go into any situation and spin it around. 0:26:36.119 --> 0:26:39.560 But you know, this church and these people are hurting 0:26:39.960 --> 0:26:43.000 or have hurt a lot of folks, and so just 0:26:43.200 --> 0:26:46.440