1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: Here's the question. Has Hillsong changed, Has it listened to critics, 2 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: has it listened to people like me? I left Hillsong 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: two years ago. I started working on this series more 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: than a year ago, and now I know a whole 5 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: lot more. In the past seven episodes of False Prophets, 6 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: we've heard stories of all kinds of abuse, spiritual, sexual, 7 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: and economic. The Hillsong I knew did not challenge abuse 8 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: of behavior by star preachers instead of protected the brand. 9 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: I'm no Emmy would ebit. And this is the final 10 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: episode of False Prophets, and I'm asking can there be justice? 11 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: It's a Sunday, which means that today Hillsong had their service. 12 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: And I don't feel like I owe the bunny thing. 13 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: I don't feel weird being here anymore. This is the 14 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: Boston Commons, the park where I took my dog Teddy. 15 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: We're not far from Royale, the nightclub that gets transformed 16 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: into Hillsong Church every week. After leaving the church, for 17 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: some time, I wouldn't go out. I was living outside 18 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: of the city and I would get panic attacks if 19 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: I ran into someone, and I wanted it to be 20 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: my home again and not feel like I was invading 21 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: a place, or I was out of place, and so 22 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,279 Speaker 1: I moved into the city, into the Back Bay area, 23 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: close to this park. And I've been here for a 24 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: year or so, and honestly, now I feel so much 25 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: more confidence to just walk on the street. And now 26 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: I'm able to contin They need to live in the 27 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: city knowing that Hillsong Church is still here. You know, 28 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: my hope speaking out is that they will cease to 29 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: exist as a church organization. But for now, for now 30 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: Boston is my city again. I can enjoy life. Hillsong 31 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: has made it clear they are not prepared to engage 32 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: with people who want it to close down, and they 33 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: won't discuss individual grievances. Hillsong needs to face a simple fact. 34 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: When people get hurt by religion, there's no quick fix. 35 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,679 Speaker 1: The church wants to move on. Brian Houston is out, 36 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: a new leadership is in, but that's not the end 37 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: for many of us. Trauma stays with you. I'm going 38 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: to go back to a guy named Andrew to help 39 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: you understand. In March of twenty twenty two, and media 40 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: reports of Brian Houston's stepping down from church, those media 41 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 1: reports created a setup in so many different ways for 42 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: my body to relive exactly what it was like at 43 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: twenty to come out and lose everything. It's nearly twenty 44 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: years since Andrew was shamed, tormented, and rejected when he 45 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: came out as a gay man in Hillsong. He's built 46 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: a successful and happy life since then. But when Hillsong 47 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: scandals hit the news headlines, the past came flooding back. 48 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: My body felt like a prison. I had rashes all 49 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: over my feet, a rash all over my face. My 50 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: body became inflamed. My chest felt like it had metal 51 00:03:55,120 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: wire trapping it. And it is astounding to me that 52 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:08,119 Speaker 1: after all of these years, my buddy is remembering that isolation, 53 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: that threat to my existence. I can see why some 54 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: people have not been able to survive these experiences. Andrew 55 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: never had an apology from Hillsong, and I don't think 56 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: he ever will. We asked Hillsong to respond to the 57 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: issues raised in this series. So far, Hillsong has decided 58 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: not to respond on the record or on tape. The 59 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: church wants to tell a story of renewal and change, 60 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: but for me, renew means a lot of hard work. 61 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: Healing takes time, and it comes at a financial cost. 62 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: You can't talk about Hillsong for long without bringing up 63 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: money because it's obviously a really big issue. And if 64 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: I could, I would definitely submit an invoice for a 65 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: refund for all the day images and all of the 66 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: work and free labor that I gave. That would be amazing. 67 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: I would definitely get a lot of money back. So 68 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: I did put together an Excel spreadsheet with all my costs, 69 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: and so I like to now jokingly say that it's 70 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: my invoice for that one year that I spent recovering 71 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: from being at Hillsong, Texas twenty twenty medical expenses here 72 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: we go. So I divided it between medical expenses and 73 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: ESA expenses because Teddy at the time was my emotional 74 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: support animal. Just for Teddy. The grand total was one thousand, 75 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: seven hundred and fifty six with sixteen cents and for 76 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 1: medical cost this included just regular PCP visits, and I 77 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: needed more than the usual in going to my psychiatric doctor, 78 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: going to my therapist, dental. A lot of people don't 79 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: talk about this, but mental health can really affect your 80 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: teeth with grinding and your gums swell. It could be 81 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: pretty dangerous. I had to get a lot of work done, 82 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: and I still go every three months. The usual is 83 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: every six months, so I actually have a lot of 84 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: costs that add up there. So with all of that 85 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: together in twenty twenty added to two thousand, five hundred 86 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: and six dollars with fifty seven cents, And honestly, that 87 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: seems really low to me because I had a good 88 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 1: insurance that year, luckily, and it covered a good portion, 89 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: but I still had to pay twenty five hundred dollars 90 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: out of pocket. Twenty five hundred dollars is a lot 91 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: to me, It probably wasn't a lot to some of 92 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: the Hillsong pastors. Remember we reported Hillsong pastor Carl Lentz 93 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: in New York was happy to blow five thousand dollars 94 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: on a dinner with celebrities. But for people like me, 95 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: a financial reckoning is probably not going to happen. No 96 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: one's going to get their tides back, are they or 97 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: get help with therapy. But a simple acknowledgement of the 98 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: past might be a start, because I don't see how 99 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: Hillsong can fix things until it owns its past. Smoke 100 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: and smoking beers. The track is Gritten and performed by 101 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: my friend Janice Legata it's called Disneylands. It's all about 102 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: her Hillsong experience. You don't have to believe to just 103 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: drinking deep and don't forget to sing were Janice isn't 104 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: hopeful that Hillsong will change, so she keeps on using 105 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: her music, her blogs, her podcasts, and her videos to 106 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: call out mega church culture. You can here. So in 107 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: the beginning, it would have been enough for it to 108 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: just just go out of business, But now it doesn't 109 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: help as much as I would like. Because of every 110 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: Hillsong campus closed tomorrow and they were just gone, probably 111 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: eighty percent of those people would just gravitate to the 112 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: next mega church like I'm not special. There are a 113 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 1: thousand means Hill Songs not special. There are a thousand 114 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: hill Songs like it's it's the system. We need to 115 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:48,079 Speaker 1: see the system kind of face justice. The leadership of Hillsong. 116 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: Those people should have to account for what they did 117 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: and offer true repentance and again reparation. But you know, 118 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: so far a lot of these people, these bad actors 119 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 1: Carl Lentz include it, right, They kind of have their moment, 120 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: oh I'm no longer in Hillsong, and then they they 121 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: just disappear and they go off and they continue living 122 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: off of the money of the people they abused. Legally, Yeah, 123 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: there's very little at this point they could be done 124 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: to make them pay up. But you know, if they 125 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: want to keep moving from church to church, or they 126 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 1: want to keep existing, I think it's just to keep shouting, well, 127 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,959 Speaker 1: hey what about these people over here. Hopefully people just 128 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 1: see how they're treating the people who have left, and 129 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,079 Speaker 1: just see how they're not willing to help people heal. Hopefully, 130 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: as more people see that, you know, if you want 131 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: to stay in Hillsong, stay but stop giving your money. 132 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: Some people have stopped going and some people have stopped giving. 133 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 1: Hillsong finances have taken a hit. COVID has been a 134 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: big factor. The annual report for Hillsong in Australia shows 135 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 1: revenues was more than twelve percent in twenty twenty one. 136 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: But here's the thing. Hillsong is being replicated by other 137 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: churches and the Fallen Stars. There's always a shout at 138 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: Redemption and Hillsong Church itself. They didn't want to talk 139 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: on the record, but this is what we know. They're 140 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: working to promote the message that it's a church again, 141 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: it's not a corporation. That the message is about God 142 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: and that God is cleaning out the church. This is 143 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: l Hardy, the journalist has been with me throughout the series. 144 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: I've spoken to people close to the new Hillsong Board 145 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: and they believe that they've implemented a new culture and 146 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 1: that they're putting in place a more robust set of 147 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: policies and procedures that's going to stop some of the 148 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: problems happening again. They said that the Hillsong today is 149 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: absolutely different from the Hillsong of a year ago, and 150 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: Hillsong without Brian Houston doesn't look like the Hillsong of 151 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: Brian Houston. They say that the services are different, that 152 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: the celebrity cultures go on the expenses of being cut back. 153 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: They're also saying things like Brian Houston was a micromanager. 154 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: Everything had to go through him, no one ever knew 155 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: really what was going on, and that it was this 156 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: culture under Brian's leadership that became detrimental and toxic. They're 157 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: keen to tell people that financial oversight has changed, that 158 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 1: the old board was gutless. They're also saying that the 159 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: big thing is that under the old system, the senior 160 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: pastor had all the control. This is no longer the case, 161 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: and complaints about senior passes should be dealt with externally 162 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 1: and independently. They're talking about things like having psychological assessments 163 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: come in for candidates and ministry, and they're pretty explicit 164 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: that their old system failed. Well, what about the specific 165 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: issues you raison the series we reported on serious allegations 166 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: of abuse at Hillsong, New York. We know from the 167 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: reports leaked to you that Hillsong's own lawyers recommended changes. 168 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: It's really interesting to me because that report that came 169 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 1: out of everything that went wrong and Hillsong on the 170 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: East Coast was so damning about their culture and made 171 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: some really explicit recommendations. But speaking to my contacts within Hillsong, 172 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: it's really unclear whether these recommendations by their own lawyers 173 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 1: have actually been implemented. And now some people are saying, oh, 174 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: we've had a new review and we're putting in a 175 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: whole lot of recommendations and procedures and policies in place 176 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: based out of this new review. And this is being 177 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: implemented right now. In fact, it should be complete by 178 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,839 Speaker 1: around August twenty twenty three. One thing that Hillsong is 179 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: clear about is that a hypercharismatic preacher like Carl Lentz 180 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,719 Speaker 1: isn't going to happen again. They can't let someone get 181 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: out of control and damage the church, no matter how 182 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: many souls they bring through the door. It sounds to 183 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: me like the messages the bad stuffers in the past. Yes, 184 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: people got hurt, but trust us, it's all going to 185 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: be different. But I still don't hear much acknowledgment of 186 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: the hurt cause to people who've left. I'm talking about 187 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: what i'd call spiritual abuse. Bostravijian is a lawyer who 188 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: works with victims of church abuse. He's had professional experience 189 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: with Hillsong. Yeah, so I wanted to ask a bit 190 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: more of what does spiritual abuse or religious abuse? A 191 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: lot of people define it differently. A lot of people 192 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: use those two words interchangeably. But what does that look 193 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: like for you in the legal sense. Yeah, I'm not 194 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: sure if there's a set working definition of spiritual religious abuse. 195 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: I think in the work that I've done, if I 196 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: was to try to unpack that a little bit, I 197 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: would say that it is the use of spiritual matters 198 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: which could include community theology, teachings to abuse or disenfranchise others. Now, 199 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: what does that mean? That can mean so many different things. So, 200 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: for example, I believe that any form of sexual abuse 201 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: is also a form of spiritual abuse, especially within the 202 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: faith community. There's no way that you can have a 203 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: spiritual leader engaging in sexual abuse of somebody under their 204 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: care and there not be profound aspects of spiritual abuse. 205 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: People believing that this is what God God wants, or 206 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: that it's okay with God, or that you know, a 207 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: twisting of theology to say and to justify that type 208 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: of conduct which does just devastates individuals emotionally, physically, but 209 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: also spiritually. I think that legally there really isn't a 210 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: cause of action in the United States for spiritual abuse. 211 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: I think that courts generally stay far away from that 212 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: because courts generally don't like to get involved with theological 213 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: disputes or ecclesiastical matters. So to say something spiritually abusive 214 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: can be a nebulous term. I mean, I think anybody 215 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: who's been spiritually abused gets it. But you know, there 216 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: would be some people in the Christian world. You talk 217 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: about a particular conduct and say that's spiritual abuse, and 218 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: they would have no clue what you're talking about. They 219 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: would say, no, that's not spiritual abuse. That's part of 220 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: our belief or our faith system. And there'd be others 221 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: who would say, oh my god, that's about as spiritual 222 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: abuse of as you can get. Often in the work 223 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: that you do, what is the most common type of 224 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: case that you've seen in which you're able to find 225 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: some form of accountability or justice. One thing people have 226 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: to understand is a difference between criminal and civil law. 227 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: Criminal law is when the government comes in and prosecutes 228 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: or holds an individual or individuals accountable for committing crimes, 229 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: and the ultimate consequence of a criminal case can be incarceration. 230 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: On the other end, you have civil cases. Civil cases 231 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: are private actions where one person and sues another based 232 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: upon what we call a recognized cause of action, and 233 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: in a civil case, the ultimate consequence is compensation, not incarceration. 234 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: And the big difference between civil and criminal case is 235 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: that in a civil case, the victim is in the 236 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: driver's seat in the case, making the decisions. But what 237 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: I look back on my cases were I think most 238 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: of my clients and I think they would say this, 239 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: that was the most positive and healing aspect of the process, 240 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: and it's a difficult process, was the fact that they 241 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: were empowered through the process to be a party, to 242 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: step out of the shadows, to file a lawsuit with 243 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: their name on it against that church or against that institution, 244 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: to hold them accountable in some fashion, and to force 245 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: them to higher lawyers, to force them to come to depositions, 246 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: to force them to answer questions. That's very empowering and 247 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: in essence healing. Who a lot of my clients who 248 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: as you know, as a as a survivor, so much 249 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: is taken away from you. Yeah. Often, power is like 250 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: the biggest thing that I have to work on in therapy. 251 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: I've been hearing a lot of folks, mainly on social media, 252 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: when different things come out. The biggest thing that comes 253 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: up is there a possibility for a class action lawsuit 254 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: if we were to all come together to present the case. 255 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,239 Speaker 1: I know the burden of proof would be on us 256 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: to show that there was intent, but what would that 257 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: look like. I'm not a class action lawyer. Having said that, 258 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 1: I really don't believe that these type of cases lend 259 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: themselves to class action lawsuits. And the reason is that 260 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: the primary objective of a class action lawsuit is really 261 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,959 Speaker 1: not financial. It's really to hold whatever entity, whether it's 262 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: a you know, a company, business, a car manufacture, whatever, 263 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: to hold them responsible to fix a problem. And what 264 00:17:55,000 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 1: the secret about class action lawsuits is is that lawyers 265 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: are the ones who benefit the most from class action lawsuits. 266 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: Boz doesn't believe class action lawsuits are an answer, but 267 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: he says individuals can bring legal action, and he believes 268 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: that this can be a part of taking back power. 269 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: The monetary damages can be economic and can be noneconomic, 270 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: So pain and suffering damages. How do you even put 271 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: a dollar a figure to that. One of the things 272 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: that we think about, because a lot of my clients, 273 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: which is which is a good thing, one of the 274 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: things that get really uneasy talking about is money. And 275 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: what I have to sort of gently push back on is, no, 276 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: this is about money, because if you sat down and 277 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: counted up the financial cost that this abuse has cost 278 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 1: your life, it's significant, It's beyond significant. And so why 279 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: in the world should you be, as the victim, be 280 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: pulling out money from your wallet or your bank account 281 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: many survivors who don't even have it. Why should you 282 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: be having to do that when the one that's responsible 283 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: or the entities that are responsible, should be doing that. 284 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: That's part of why we sue churches and sue organizations 285 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: because we're saying, listen, one way we hold you accountable 286 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 1: is to make sure that you are going to compensate 287 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: me for all of my loss, financial and non financial. 288 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: When it comes to law and religion, accountability is elusive. 289 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: Doctor Stephen Hassan is trying to come up with an answer. 290 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: He spent more than forty years helping people get out 291 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: of all types of authoritarian groups, religious cults, political cults, 292 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: therapy cults, and multi level marketing groups. He's best known 293 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: for his work on something called the Bite model. You 294 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: can check it out on his website. But to explain 295 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: it simply, it's a list of red flags, a checklist 296 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: of characteristics of mind control. Well, I believe everyone should 297 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: understand stand the influence continuum and Bite model, and they 298 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: should understand the qualities of most cult leaders is malignant narcissism. 299 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: And what I advocate is people be good consumers. So 300 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: if they're being invited to something that they should do 301 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 1: an independent investigation, not depend on the recruiters. To give 302 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: you information. And the simplest thing these days with Google 303 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: is to put the name in quotes of the group, 304 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: the name of the leader in quotes. Then you do 305 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: plus cult or plus scam, plus brainwashing, plus x members. 306 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: And don't just settle for the first page, go ten 307 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: pages in because most of the big cults manipulate search 308 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: engines because they know most people won't look more than 309 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: three pages on Google. But the other thing is so 310 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: research the leader, the story, and so you want to 311 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: ask hard questions. And most cult leaders go for power, money, 312 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: and sex, and some want all three. And you want 313 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: to get involved with a religious group where the leader 314 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: isn't me me, me, Me, Me me. You want the 315 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: centrality to be focused on helping lift up members and 316 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: support them and teach love rather than hate. And if 317 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: a group's legitimate, it will stand up to scrutiny. So 318 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: you know, allow your inner gut or your inner voice, 319 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: it's saying there's something wrong here, listen to yourself and 320 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: reality test. When he was nineteen, Stephen was recruited into 321 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: a cult, the Moonies. His experience motivated him to try 322 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 1: and change the legal system. He wants those who exercise 323 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: destructive mind control to be held criminally accountable. It's become 324 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: a mission and a crusade for forty six years, and 325 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 1: the last seven years I've been focusing on getting a 326 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: doctorate and trying to create a formula that judges and 327 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: juries can use to evaluate undue influence in courts of law, 328 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: because I feel that what is being done should be illegal. 329 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: There's a long way to go before we see any 330 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 1: legal changes. But Stephen Hassan's focus is also on recovery, 331 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: and a part of that is dealing with guilt. So 332 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: I think that one should own the fact that you 333 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: did interfere with other people's lives and perhaps cause great harm, 334 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: but also acknowledge you were doing the best you could 335 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: with the information and experiences you had. You were believing 336 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 1: you were doing a good thing. And so it starts 337 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 1: with not having a black and white judgment on your 338 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: younger self. But here's what I tell all of my 339 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: clients as a therapist. I say, the key to recovering 340 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: from destructive mind control is controlling your own mind. I 341 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: ask people to answer, if they knew then what they 342 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: know now, what would they have said or done differently. So, 343 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: in the case of the younger me when I was nineteen. 344 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: If Steve knew these women were moonies and they were 345 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: going to ask them to drop out of college and 346 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: become a right wing fascist, I would have told them, no, 347 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: you can't sit at my table. In fact, get the 348 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 1: hell off my campus. I'm calling security. So the idea 349 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: is I'm empowering my clients to heal themselves. And the 350 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: critical thing is to be in your body, to be 351 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: in the now and have goals for the future that 352 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: can be very positive and attractive to you that you 353 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: have a future you want to live. We can rewire 354 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: our brains to be the way we want to be now. 355 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 1: I was told by a professor at this forensic think 356 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: tank I've been a part of at Harvard. He said, 357 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 1: if you really want to change the law, you need 358 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: a doctor at Steve, and you need to do a 359 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 1: quantitative study or in your model to prove that it 360 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: has efficacy. And I said, Michael, I'm sixty three, and 361 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: he said I'm seventy seven. Do you want to change 362 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: the law or not? And I was like, damn, I 363 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: guess I'm gonna go back to school and crack the 364 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: textbooks and learn. And it turned out to be one 365 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: of the best choices I made because I got smarter. 366 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,479 Speaker 1: And that's one thing I hope you'll take away from 367 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: false prophets. All of us, even the smartest people, can 368 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: fall for stuff. But what about some of the people 369 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 1: we've met in this series. How did the Hillsong experience 370 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: affect their lives and faith? Oludharado was part of Hillsong, 371 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: New York, New Jersey, and Los Angeles. So my relationship 372 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: to faith is that you know it exists. I still 373 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: believe in Jesus, but I'm definitely not part of a church. 374 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: I don't plan to be part of a church ever. Again. 375 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: I do believe churches do do good, but for me, 376 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: the damage that can be done to the individual supersedes 377 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: the good that it does overall. So for me personally, 378 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: I can't do it. I just can't be a part 379 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 1: of a church at all. I really just don't think 380 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: they are safe spaces for people who aren't white. And 381 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: after I left the church, I definitely was scared that 382 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be as close to God or my faith, 383 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: and that was proven wrong. I didn't necessarily need to 384 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: be part of a church to be close to God 385 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: or to have strong faith. Racism came up a lot 386 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: in this series. Who Song says on its website that 387 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: it's woken up to diversity and inclusion issues. Also says 388 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: that their new board is more diverse. And what about 389 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: people who work for really low wages for Hillsong pastors 390 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: and left feeling exploited? How do they feel now? Megan 391 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: Fallon was one of the nannies and volunteers at Hillsong 392 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: New York. She moved to San Francisco and she gave 393 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: birth to twin daughters soon after talking to us. I 394 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: don't know the answer that what Hillsong could do to 395 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: get better, but I know it starts with like listening 396 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,959 Speaker 1: to the people that they've hurt. And I just am 397 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: a firm believer that like, if your intentions are good, 398 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 1: you can go into any situation and spin it around. 399 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: But you know, this church and these people are hurting 400 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: or have hurt a lot of folks, and so just 401 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: be careful and if you did feel like it's time 402 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: to leave, like trust that gut feeling the first time 403 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: you feel it. And there's a lot of us kind 404 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: of on the other side that there's like a lot 405 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: of support out there now, which is really awesome. Hillsong 406 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: isn't going to engage with us. We are the past. 407 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: I guess it says the Hillsong of today is not 408 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: the Hillsong of Brian Houston. Ashley Easter has been with 409 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: us through the series. She's an abuse survivor and an 410 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: advocate for victims. In her experience, powerful people don't change. 411 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: The people that you're dealing with in these church systems 412 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: are not like you most of the time. They do 413 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: not have the same kind of empathy you have most 414 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: of the time. They're not driven by the same care 415 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: for other people that you are driven by. And so 416 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: don't be disillusioned that talking about the problem and bringing 417 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: up these issues is going to some help tug at 418 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: their heartstrings and they're going to want to do the 419 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: right thing. So focus more on what you can do 420 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: for survivors and to advance the cause of survivors and 421 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: protecting other people from getting in these situations. In the beginning, 422 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: I used to think that AVOCA to see work. The 423 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: goal was to maybe change the systems or the churches, 424 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: or maybe get the pastors to listen. I don't believe 425 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: that that's the goal anymore. I think the goal that 426 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: realized now is really just to empower the survivor community 427 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: and to sound the alarm so it doesn't happen to 428 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: other people, so they can make decisions to keep themselves safe. 429 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: And to be able to have your story told and 430 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: validated by a community, and to warn other people. I 431 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: think those are some huge winds that we're seeing in 432 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: the survivor community as a whole. What about my personal 433 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: story and queer identity? No sign of change there from Hillsong. 434 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: Will Hillsong affirm gay people? The message we're getting is no, 435 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: will gay people be accepted in leadership roles? No? Will 436 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: Hillsong be more clear on their message? The sign we're 437 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: getting is no. But the message is still welcome home, 438 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: you belong here. It's time for a final catch up 439 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: with Oh Hardy. We're not surprised that Hillsong doesn't want 440 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: to talk on the record. From your perspective, does it 441 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: look any different to the Hillsong that you left? To 442 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: be honest, I guess different in terms of the leader 443 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: at the front, the person holding the mic, But in 444 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: terms of systems, I see it the same, Like nothing 445 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: has changed. The system was founded the way it was 446 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: and they liked it the way it was and it's 447 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: not going to shift from that. Yeah, I've also been wondering, 448 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: I mean, for you, is there going to be a 449 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: point where you draw a line and say, Hillsong is 450 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: so far in the revision mirror now I'm not thinking 451 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: about it talking about it anymore, Like are you ever 452 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: gonna have you ever sort of set that point for 453 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: yourself or are you just kind of just kind of 454 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: rolling with it. That's a great question. I think as 455 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: a person of color, as a queer person, when you 456 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: go through experiences, you often and to use your story 457 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: in order to advocate for change, and knowing that things 458 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: are not going to change in terms of LGBTQ policies, 459 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: if they were to change our LGBTQ policies, then I'd 460 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,239 Speaker 1: be like, Okay, my work is done. But if they 461 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: didn't until the day they change their LGBTQ policies and 462 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: actually say we do not affirm LGBTQ people within their website, 463 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: make it loud and clear that they are homophobic, then 464 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: I will stop talking. I think that's the line I'm 465 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: going to draw, But for now that hasn't happened, So 466 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: I'm going to continue to do it. That's really admirable. 467 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: I think it's really cool if you're still energized by it. 468 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: And yeah, I think like you have to have a 469 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: good sense of division within your life. I have the 470 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: Noemi that goes to work, the Noemi that goes to 471 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: advocate for LGBTQ people within the work that I do 472 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: outside of all of this, and then there's a Noemi 473 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: that speaks out within this podcast or within Hillsong Realms. 474 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: Once I walk out of here, I'm gonna take a 475 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: deep breath and say, Okay, now let's go have fun. 476 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: I don't need to carry this all day with me. 477 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: But it takes years for things to change when you're 478 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: speaking out, and it hurts and it's sad, but it's 479 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: the reality of how Hillsong had us before, where Hillsong 480 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: was our whole life. So then to now have it 481 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: only be a small part of your life where you're 482 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: speaking out, that's really hard to make that division. But 483 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: I think it's also empowering to do that, to place 484 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: that situation in a little box and to be able 485 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: to go have fun. I think, honestly, that's the best 486 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: form of revenge. That's the best form of justice and 487 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: accountability that I have found within to be able to 488 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: pick up and be happy. Yeah, you got a smile 489 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: an her face. Man, it's the hard work of healing. Awesome. Yeah, 490 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: should we see? Yeah, let's go. Look. I want to 491 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: get a flag. This is New York Pride twenty twenty two, 492 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: my first time here. For me, it feels like the 493 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: best end to my story. We started the Pride Parade 494 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: just a couple of blocks from Hillsong Church. It no 495 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: longer has the power to hurt me. It's fun. Welcome 496 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: to my life. It all came together and it all 497 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: became even more special and monumental in my life. When 498 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: I was able to walk in the Pride Parade, I 499 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: got to take back the start and finish where I 500 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: wanted to finish, without someone telling me where to go 501 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: or what to do, and telling me who I could 502 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: or couldn't love. I think that for me was very special. 503 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: You could hear Teddy barking in the back. He also 504 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: believes it was special, even though he didn't go. It 505 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: brings me to tears because I went through so many 506 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: dark nights and to just hear myself embrace all of 507 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: me in that parade and just like seeing the people 508 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: around cheering and like embracing and yelling and accepting me 509 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: was like a very big contrast in comparison to my 510 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: experience at a Hillsong where I was told to complete opposite. 511 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, a lot of emotions. I started the series 512 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: wanting to do this, get answers from Hillsong. I'm still 513 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,239 Speaker 1: waiting to shine a light on things Hillsong didn't want 514 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: to see. We've done that, and to take back power. 515 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: This march and this series was definitely a take back 516 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: from me. I'm nomoibe and this is false prophets, and 517 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: I want to thank everyone who shared their stories with me. 518 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: Special thanks to l Hardy. The series producer was Louise Cotton, 519 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,280 Speaker 1: Assistant producer was Leo Schick. Thanks to our executive producer 520 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:24,280 Speaker 1: Alex Holland's sound design was by David Thomas. Location production 521 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: in Australia was by Sharon Davies and thanks to our 522 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: production manager Carrie Louder. The development producer was Naomi Harvey. 523 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: False Prophets Hillsong is a story Glass production and is 524 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:45,760 Speaker 1: distributed by iHeartRadio. The executive producer from iHeartRadio is Dylan Fagan, 525 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: with special thanks to beth N Macaluso.