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Speaker 1: It's very difficult to keep the line between the.

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Speaker 2: Past and the press. You believe that someone out of

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Speaker 2: the past can enter and take possession of a living beat.

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Speaker 3: We may be through with the past, but the past

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Speaker 3: is not through with us.

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Speaker 4: Welcome back to the next Picture Show a movie the

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Speaker 4: Week podcast to put it to a classic film in

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Speaker 4: a way it shaped our thoughts on a recent release.

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Speaker 4: I'm Keith Phipps here again.

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Speaker 5: With Genevieve Cooski, Scott Tobias and Tasha Robinson.

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Speaker 4: On the first half of this episode, we discussed Alfred

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Speaker 4: Hitchcock's Rebecca, the nineteen forty film that brought him to

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Speaker 4: America earned the Best Picture Oscar began a difficult relationship

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Speaker 4: with David o' selznik and assured that any movies with

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Speaker 4: creepy maids would forever be compared to it. In this episode,

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Speaker 4: we'll turn our attention to Paul Thomas Anderson's Phantom Thread,

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Speaker 4: which doesn't have a creepy maid, but it does have

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Speaker 4: a Missus Danvers like figure in the former Leslie Manvil's

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Speaker 4: Cyril Woodcock, sister of its central character, Reynolds Woodcock. In fact,

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Speaker 4: Anderson has freely cited Rebecca as a direct influence on

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Speaker 4: Phantom Thread, suggesting to Entertainment Weekly that he would be

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Speaker 4: next in the line of directors who tried and failed,

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Speaker 4: his words to make their own version of the movie. Yet,

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Speaker 4: for all their connections, which we'll get into shortly, Fandom

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Speaker 4: Thread is very much its own movie and very much

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Speaker 4: the unmistakable work of Paul Thomas Anderson. Power struggles in

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Speaker 4: one form another have been central to many of Anderson's films,

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Speaker 4: and here the interest gets channeled into the story that

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Speaker 4: finds the unexpected middle ground between the Master and punch

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Speaker 4: drunk love. It's a love story that takes more than

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Speaker 4: a few unexpected turns, and one fraught with a heart

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Speaker 4: to define tension. In a recent Q and a on Reddit,

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Speaker 4: Anderson answered a question about depicting a romantic love with

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Speaker 4: a reference to yes Alfred Hitchcock, responding quote, I think

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Speaker 4: Hitchcock had a good idea. He said, shoot love scenes

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Speaker 4: like murder scenes, and murder scenes like love scenes. Maybe

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Speaker 4: he felt that falling in love is scary as shit.

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Speaker 4: I think we've all felt that way. By that logic,

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Speaker 4: there are a lot of murder scenes and Phantom Thread,

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Speaker 4: even if it's not clear who's killing whom we meet.

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Speaker 4: Reynolds Woodcock played by Daniel da lewis the highly successful

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Speaker 4: and extremely particular dress designer as he's in the process

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Speaker 4: of discarding with the help of his sister Cyril played

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Speaker 4: by Leslie Manville, the latest in what seems to be

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Speaker 4: a series of lovers and muses, He soon finds another

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Speaker 4: in Alma played by Vicki Creeps, a waitress of unknown

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Speaker 4: origin with no apparent attachments and eventually no apparent interest

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Speaker 4: beyond keeping Reynolds happy. But it's not that simple. Trying

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Speaker 4: to change the unspoken terms of the relationship leads to

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Speaker 4: a potential disaster. Instead, she discovers it that she also

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Speaker 4: doesn't want to end up on a list of former inspirations.

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Speaker 4: She's going up to take more radical steps. But as

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Speaker 4: Alma and Reynolds circle one another, sometimes drawing each other closer,

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Speaker 4: other times pushing each other away, Anderson keeps her actions

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Speaker 4: and her motives unclear, never fully lifting the veil on

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Speaker 4: either until the film's final moments.

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Speaker 2: Her arrival has cast a very long shadow. She sadly

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Speaker 2: looked into you this evening, has she may I warn

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Speaker 2: you of something my brother can feel cursed that love

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Speaker 2: is doomed for him. I don't like to fabric Maybe

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Speaker 2: wonder you would change her taste.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I like my own taste just.

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Speaker 4: Enough to get you into trouble.

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Speaker 2: Keep something to stop.

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Speaker 4: There is an air of quiet death in this house.

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Speaker 1: You're not cursed your love by me.

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Speaker 3: Stop playing this game?

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Speaker 6: What game?

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Speaker 2: What precisely is the nature of my game?

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Speaker 4: All your rules and your clothes and all this money

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Speaker 4: and everything is a game.

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Speaker 2: It was an ambush. Stop but you sent here to

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Speaker 2: ruin my evening, possibly my entire life. Stop it.

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Speaker 1: Whatever you do, do it carefully.

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Speaker 4: So what did every want to pick up the panom thread?

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Speaker 1: I think we kind of spoilered people on that last

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Speaker 1: week when we talked about our top films of the year.

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Speaker 1: It was my number two of the year.

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Speaker 3: It was Scots, both of ours number one.

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Speaker 6: But yeah, but this was the mystery person.

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Speaker 1: So you haven't even seen it yet. No.

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Speaker 5: I have seen it, and I really wish I had

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Speaker 5: been able to see it a second time before this discussion,

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Speaker 5: because it's been a couple of days and I'm still

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Speaker 5: working out my feelings. I was not immediately over the

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Speaker 5: moon for this film. I'm sorry, guys, but it's not okay.

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Speaker 5: You guaranteed me it would be my favorite, Tasha.

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Speaker 1: I actually, I know, deliberately went out of my way

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Speaker 1: to not set your expectations to you. I didn't want

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Speaker 1: a Lady Bird you knowing that you'd already been told

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Speaker 1: this is going to be your favorite movie the year.

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Speaker 1: On that one.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong. I did not

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Speaker 5: hate it. I didn't even dislike it, and I definitely

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Speaker 5: had the sensation that at least one of you discussed

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Speaker 5: of just being like very swept up in this film

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Speaker 5: from the moment it began. I loved watching this film.

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Speaker 5: I love the experience of looking at this film. I'm

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Speaker 5: still puzzling over whether it's approach, which I think is

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Speaker 5: like exacting and well executed, works for me personally. There's

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Speaker 5: this very purposeful back and forth between being alluring and

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Speaker 5: withholding in this film, and that's, like I said, absolutely intentional.

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Speaker 5: It's a reflection of Woodcock and their relationship. But that

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Speaker 5: kind of push and pull tension made it really difficult

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Speaker 5: for me to like love this movie or to see

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Speaker 5: love in it. It feels a little sterile for for

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Speaker 5: my liking both in terms of a love story and

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Speaker 5: in a terms of a story about fashion, which is

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Speaker 5: something else that I kind of had a slight problem

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Speaker 5: with while still enjoying in the moment.

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Speaker 4: But well, when you said the word sterroll Scott made

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Speaker 4: a face. I think we should probably go to Scott

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Speaker 4: for it's fine.

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Speaker 5: I mean, ster is maybe not exactly the right word,

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Speaker 5: but it's it's it's precise to the point of airlessness.

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Speaker 5: That was worse.

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Speaker 4: I think we should probably go.

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Speaker 5: Well, wait, wait, let me see if I can make

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Speaker 5: it even worse.

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Speaker 3: Please, please, you're killing me, You're killing me.

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Speaker 6: Well, I mean I've seen it.

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Speaker 3: I have had the benefit of seeing it twice and

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Speaker 3: I was held quite rap and just.

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Speaker 4: To back up this difficult film in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 4: and now you're making a face at me. But I mean,

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Speaker 4: it is a nobody.

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Speaker 5: Likes this film in the right way. For Scott, this.

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Speaker 1: Was the worst movie of the year.

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Speaker 5: Nobody should like this.

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Speaker 4: It's a complex film, is what I'm saying. I'm leaving

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Speaker 4: this discussion. I've only seen it once. I'd love to

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Speaker 4: have a chance to see it a second time. I'm

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Speaker 4: I'm going to see a second time this weekend. But

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Speaker 4: there's a lot to sort through, is what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: I went back and saw it last night again in

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Speaker 1: seventy milimeters the music I just miss you. Were we

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Speaker 1: in the same theater?

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Speaker 6: When did you see it?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's amazing.

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Speaker 6: I can't believe we saw the same show.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I had to go back and rewatch it because I

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Speaker 1: had to know how it would play differently the second time.

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Speaker 3: I just love this movie so much. In the second time,

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Speaker 3: I just think there's something with all of Anderson's films,

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Speaker 3: you know, because you're thinking looking for unifying threads, because

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Speaker 3: there's also different They a loot of them, taking place

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Speaker 3: in different time periods, different types of characters. They all

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Speaker 3: have a kind of different feel to them, but at

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Speaker 3: their core, there's just something so raw and childlike, almost

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Speaker 3: in base about the emotions at play, which is why

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Speaker 3: the word airless made me kind of cringe a little bit,

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Speaker 3: just because I.

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Speaker 6: Think that.

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Speaker 3: Cringe because there's all there's a hurt at the center

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Speaker 3: of this movie, and in a weird way, the second

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Speaker 3: viewing brought it out for me a little bit more

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Speaker 3: because I had just seen Rebecca and I think because

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Speaker 3: I think the relationship between Phantom Thread and Rebecca is

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Speaker 3: a true conversation in a way that I that really

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Speaker 3: makes this podcast, you know, kind of exciting for me,

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Speaker 3: because there's so many analogs between the two. But the

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Speaker 3: insight that I had into Phantom Thread was that the

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Speaker 3: Rebecca of Phantom Thread is his mom, and that pain

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Speaker 3: in that presence, that the invisible presence that she has

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Speaker 3: over him at all times, and then almost trying to

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Speaker 3: break through and access and healed to some extent this

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Speaker 3: wound that follows him. That's where the emotion of the

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Speaker 3: film really kind of came forth for me in a

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Speaker 3: second viewing, beyond just being utter, you know, and wrapped

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Speaker 3: with the filmmaking, which is so spectacular in every possible regard.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not looking at a skance. I'm just thinking,

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Speaker 1: I think it's fascinating how these two films talk to

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Speaker 1: each other. I think it's amazing the degree to which

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Speaker 1: he has remade Rebecca without remaking Rebecca, like by making

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Speaker 1: his own movie in just such a distinctive way. And

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Speaker 1: we can get into that more specifically in connections. For me,

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Speaker 1: Phantom Thread played very very differently the second time like

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Speaker 1: the first time. I think within the first five minutes

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Speaker 1: of it, like I had managed to go into this

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Speaker 1: movie having forgotten who was in it and knowing literally

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Speaker 1: nothing about the plot, and I think within the first

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Speaker 1: five minutes I just had this feeling of I'm in

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Speaker 1: the hands of a master, like he knows what he's doing,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know where this is going, but it's

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Speaker 1: going to be fascinating. And then every beat was unexpected

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Speaker 1: for me. I can point to at least three different

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Speaker 1: points during the film where I thought, oh, okay, I

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Speaker 1: see where this is going and it's going to be

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Speaker 1: a letow. Oh, that wasn't it at all. And there

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Speaker 1: are a few things I enjoy in a film more

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Speaker 1: than surprise, you know, not a jump cut of a

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Speaker 1: cat leaping out when you're expecting an alien, but that

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Speaker 1: full bodied unexpected. You can see where this is going

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Speaker 1: and that is not the intention at all, And in part,

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Speaker 1: that was what I loved about the film the first

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Speaker 1: time through, and it goes right up to the last scene.

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Speaker 1: The second time watching it, of course, I couldn't have

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Speaker 1: that experience again. The experience I had instead was just

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Speaker 1: studying the intentionality of every line. This is a meticulously

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Speaker 1: crafted screenplay where every scene in every line means something

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Speaker 1: very important. It's very slowly building a tightly pieced together wall,

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Speaker 1: and there is nothing wasted. And I didn't feel anything

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Speaker 1: like the emotional connection the second time through, but I

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Speaker 1: came out really impressed.

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Speaker 5: With a craft. That's interesting because the way you describe

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Speaker 5: watching it the second time much more aligned with how

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Speaker 5: I watched it the first time. Because I was preparing

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Speaker 5: for this podcast, and because I was thinking about it

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Speaker 5: in terms of Anderson as a filmmaker and like the

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Speaker 5: things that we would be discussing, and I was actively

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Speaker 5: analyzing every line and image to the extent that you

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Speaker 5: can while watching a movie and trying to remain in

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Speaker 5: the moment. And I think that's what I mean when

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Speaker 5: I say like, while being very swept up in and

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Speaker 5: taken with the craft and execution, I just had trouble

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Speaker 5: accessing the emotional core of this movie, not because I

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Speaker 5: don't believe it's there, Like I think you are absolutely right,

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Speaker 5: Scott in terms of the mother figure being a key

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Speaker 5: to unlocking the relationship, Like I understand all that intellectually,

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Speaker 5: but there's just such a focus on precision and detail

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Speaker 5: and execution that it overshadows that emotional component for me,

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Speaker 5: and that's, to be honest, that's something that happens a

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Speaker 5: lot for me with PT Anderson, Like he's one of

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Speaker 5: those filmmakers I've just never been able to really engage

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Speaker 5: with to the extent I feel other people do. So

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Speaker 5: it may be a personal tastes thing that's happening here.

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Speaker 5: But that said, I mean, I really liked looking at

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Speaker 5: this movie. I really like watching this movie. I want

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Speaker 5: to see it a second time. I want to reevaluate

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Speaker 5: my reactions. So I want to interrogate my reactions to

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Speaker 5: it again, you know, and I want to discuss it

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Speaker 5: with you guys.

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Speaker 1: I just I don't think it's surprising that you experienced

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Speaker 1: trouble accessing the emotions, given that our three main characters

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Speaker 1: are all people who withhold their emotions at all times,

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Speaker 1: who rigidly control them, who only let out the smallest

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Speaker 1: fragments of things. It's not an emotional movie in that way,

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Speaker 1: and I can certainly see having a reaction to that.

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Speaker 1: That said, I've very often been in the same boat

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Speaker 1: as you with Paul Thomas Anderson, with just a feeling

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Speaker 1: of I'm not connecting with this movie, Like I understand

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Speaker 1: what it's doing and it's interesting, but I very rarely

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Speaker 1: connect with his movies. This was an exception for me.

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Speaker 3: I just think he understands so much about the essence

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Speaker 3: of drama. I think we talked about that William H.

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Speaker 3: Macy interviewing about the nature of acting, about people, what

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Speaker 3: you know, trying to get something from somebody else, right,

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Speaker 3: and that back and forth, And you think about that

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Speaker 3: dynamic between that push and pull between Reynolds and Almah right,

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Speaker 3: and how they're locked in this battle of wills where

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Speaker 3: they really are trying to have a relationship on their

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Speaker 3: terms and trying to force certain terms on each other

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Speaker 3: in order to find some kind of reconciliation. And they

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Speaker 3: only find it, you know, at the very end of

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Speaker 3: the film, and when they do, it's such a pleasure

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Speaker 3: to watch. I mean that scene. I mean, to have

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Speaker 3: the nerve to not resolve this thing until the very

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Speaker 3: end of the movie. I mean, when she's making that

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Speaker 3: omelet for him and he gets it and he understands

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Speaker 3: what's being done, and she subjects him to a staring

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Speaker 3: contest which he has warned him much earlier that he's

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Speaker 3: will always lose. To have that point be the point

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Speaker 3: of reconciliation is pretty amazing. I guess that's sort of

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Speaker 3: there will be blood thing too, where it kind of

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Speaker 3: goes to that very endpoint before it really kind of

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Speaker 3: nails it down.

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Speaker 6: But the Master too is something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the Master too. I think that one of the

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Speaker 1: things that a lot of Anderson's films have in common.

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Speaker 1: And I think I would have to go back and

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Speaker 1: rewatch some of the first movies of his that I

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Speaker 1: saw to see if this extends through all of them.

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Speaker 1: But I think the kind of push and pull we

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Speaker 1: see here of two people who need each other in

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Speaker 1: a very specific way and are perpetually angry with each

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Speaker 1: other because they're not being given the thing they need

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Speaker 1: in return, is very common to all of the Anderson

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Speaker 1: films that I know reasonably well.

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Speaker 4: But I found myself, you know, as a credit they're

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Speaker 4: thinking this is closest in some ways to punch Drunk Love.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it is a love story, and it's about

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Speaker 4: two people who are damaged in such a way, but

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Speaker 4: that they may not be right for anyone except for

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Speaker 4: each other, and maybe not even that, but yet maybe

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Speaker 4: they can, maybe they can work it out, And I

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Speaker 4: think they both end on the same hopeful out. It's

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Speaker 4: odd because you know, I don't think superficially they have

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Speaker 4: very much in common, but I think they're kind of

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Speaker 4: in somebody's telling the same story. And I think that's

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Speaker 4: also looking a big picture. I think that's the point

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Speaker 4: where Anderson starts making what we now see as Paul

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Speaker 4: Thomas Anderson movies. As much as I love Heart eight

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Speaker 4: and Bogie Knights, which I can watch any day of

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Speaker 4: the week, and Maynoy I really like a lot too.

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Speaker 4: You know, I think before he's kind of like doing

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Speaker 4: this sort of incredible synthesis of his greatest influences, and

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Speaker 4: then you know, I think he just figures out a

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Speaker 4: whole different thing to do with Punch Dunklovny. It's been

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Speaker 4: doing it ever since.

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Speaker 1: I feel like with Boogie Knights, there's some of that

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Speaker 1: dynamic going on, like in Microcosm, in some of the relationships.

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Speaker 1: It's just not the overall theme of the film unless

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Speaker 1: you think of I'm just going to call him Marky Mark,

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Speaker 1: unless you think of him and the adult film industry

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Speaker 1: as needing each other and not being entirely capable of

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Speaker 1: getting what they want from each other until the very end.

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Speaker 1: But I think you see just sort of that aspect

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Speaker 1: of it in smaller cases, in specific relationships within the movie,

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Speaker 1: and he just gradually expanded that relationship to be the

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Speaker 1: entire movie in There will be Blood and the Master

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Speaker 1: in here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean his film's from Punch Drunk, Love on.

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Speaker 3: You couldn't examine them and say, well that's that's a

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Speaker 3: little Scorsese there, a little Altman there, maybe a little

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Speaker 3: Demi too. They became his movies in just more and

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Speaker 3: more sophisticated in terms of style. I mean, my favorite

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Speaker 3: Paul thom Sanderson films are all pretty recent, this, this one,

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Speaker 3: and The Master and There will be Blood probably, but

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Speaker 3: they're all, I mean, they're all great. But I just

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Speaker 3: I think he's become a much more sophisticated filmmaker and

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Speaker 3: writer too. That was another thought I had leaving the

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Speaker 3: theater that you were in last night and walking home.

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Speaker 6: Very big theater. It is a very big theater, right,

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Speaker 6: And I was there.

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Speaker 3: I was there pretty early, but weirdly thinking that a

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Speaker 3: late show on a Monday night in a seven hundred

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Speaker 3: seat house is somehow sell out.

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Speaker 6: This is the way I think.

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Speaker 1: So it was surprisingly well occupied though for a Monday

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Speaker 1: you know, with the ambient temperature being ten below.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that is true, but I was pretty pretty.

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Speaker 1: Pleased with how packed house was.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think one of these show things

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Speaker 3: in the seventy millimeters, I think that's a big draw

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Speaker 3: for people.

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Speaker 4: But to say, we're talking about the Music Box here

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Speaker 4: in Chicago, yes, we are probably collectively our favorite theater.

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Speaker 5: It's I also saw the seventy millimeter there the day before,

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Speaker 5: you too.

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Speaker 4: I see it this weekend.

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Speaker 3: But in any case, my thought walking home is like,

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Speaker 3: is there somebody Is there a writer director who is

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Speaker 3: as skilled in both roles right now as Paul Timas

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Speaker 3: Anderson because you can always you can think a lot

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Speaker 3: of directors who also write their scripts where the scripts

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Speaker 3: almost feel like an architecture of what they're going to

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Speaker 3: be able to do with the camera. I mean, like

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Speaker 3: Brian de Palmer writes a script, you know, the script

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Speaker 3: itself is not a masterpiece, but it's kind of providing

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Speaker 3: him this opportunity to do the set pieces that.

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Speaker 6: He wants to do.

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Speaker 3: He's thinking about what he's gonna do with the camera.

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Speaker 3: But like, the writing here is so sophisticated on its own,

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Speaker 3: and of course you can't separate it from what he

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Speaker 3: ends up doing from a filmmaking love. But man, he's

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Speaker 3: so good. He's gotten to be such a better writer.

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Speaker 3: I mean, this is like such a better script than

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Speaker 3: like Magnolia, which is just all raw and almost kind

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Speaker 3: of shrill. This has all of those emotions but expressed

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Speaker 3: in a much more refined way and sophisticated way.

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Speaker 6: And he gets better with every movie, it seems.

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Speaker 1: You know, off the top of my head, there are

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Speaker 1: a handful of writer directors who I think are fantastic

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Speaker 1: and who I would put up there, But my mind

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Speaker 1: is not good at random access coming up with stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. This is something I would love to hear

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Speaker 1: from our listeners on, but I also don't want to

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Speaker 1: derail too much because there's so much specific that we

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Speaker 1: want to talk about in terms of phantom thread and

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Speaker 1: above all, like before we get into connections, I just

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Speaker 1: I kind of want to focus on how these characters

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Speaker 1: are constructed. You know, my big complaint with Rebecca was

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Speaker 1: the overall construction of the story. Here, the construction of

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Speaker 1: the story is so important because of the way these

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Speaker 1: characters unfold over time and because of the performances we get.

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Speaker 1: I think the thing that surprised me most about the

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Speaker 1: film was perpetually thinking I knew what was up with

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Speaker 1: Alma and then discovering that I didn't just beat for

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Speaker 1: beat for beat as she kept resisting all of these

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Speaker 1: easy little stereotypes she could have fit into in terms

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Speaker 1: of how women characters in period films so often work.

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Speaker 1: I kept thinking that I knew always going on with Cyril,

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Speaker 1: and she kept surprising me. Woodcock, I feel like maybe

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Speaker 1: was a little more kind of predictable in his patterns,

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Speaker 1: because that is what his character is, is a set

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Speaker 1: of predictable patterns that gets incredibly upset when it's disrupted.

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Speaker 1: But the shape of the characters here, I was just

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Speaker 1: so fascinated by how unexpected they were.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I keep getting stuck in terms of Alma on

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Speaker 5: the fact that in a movie that is about a

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Speaker 5: woman finding ways to express her own agency in a relationship,

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Speaker 5: we get so little information about that woman's life outside

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Speaker 5: of this relationship before or during it. And like, I

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Speaker 5: understand that a film needs a focus and can't tell

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Speaker 5: us everything, but I really do think it's kind of

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Speaker 5: a detriment to this character, who is presented like a

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Speaker 5: blank slate that suddenly isn't so blank, and that's part

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Speaker 5: of the mystery. It's intended as a revelation, but there's

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Speaker 5: an organic human quality lacking in that revelation that makes

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Speaker 5: her and I think ultimately their relationship feel more like

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Speaker 5: a contrivance to me, which is where some of my

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Speaker 5: problems with the emotional core of this movie is coming from.

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Speaker 5: I should say that Creeps, I think, does a remarkable

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Speaker 5: job in viewing that character with depth and authenticity that

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Speaker 5: like may be on the page. You know, Anderson may

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Speaker 5: have written a lot more than the dialogue around that character,

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Speaker 5: but I think it comes through in the performance more

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Speaker 5: than in the dialogue. For sure.

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Speaker 1: You know, her lack of background, her lack of apparent

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Speaker 1: family or friends or a story, bothered me a bit

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Speaker 1: the first time around. But am I draw on something

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Speaker 1: really intelligent and insightful that a friend of mine named

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Speaker 1: Scott Tobias said about thirty minutes ago, which is I

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Speaker 1: think that her lack of background here is the equivalent

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Speaker 1: of the main character's lack of background in Rebecca. I

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Speaker 1: think that what he's communicating here is that, in a way,

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Speaker 1: she doesn't have an identity until she enters this relationship,

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Speaker 1: and that might be horrifying in some movies. We've certainly

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Speaker 1: all seen movies where the female lead does not have

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Speaker 1: any kind of story of her own apart from the

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Speaker 1: relationship she's in here. It's because she enters this relationship

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Speaker 1: and immediately creates it on her own terms, and then

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Speaker 1: sinks her teeth in and will not let go until

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Speaker 1: it takes the shape she wants it to take. I

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Speaker 1: feel like her lack of background is just emphasizing the

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Speaker 1: degree to which she has now become this relationship.

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Speaker 4: It's a kenny bit of casting too, because an actress

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Speaker 4: who brings no baggage with her. She's done some films

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Speaker 4: in ye, She's did Hannah. I think it's the only

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Speaker 4: film that got any kind of play over here. She's

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Speaker 4: from Luxembourg, so the accident is, you know, it sounds

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Speaker 4: continental but a little unplaceable at the same time. It's

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Speaker 4: just a real find for this role and.

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Speaker 3: She just like Tommy.

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Speaker 4: Well, now it's time for connections when we draw connections

437
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Speaker 4: between this film and the Room. Yeah, what a fine

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Speaker 4: I'm looking forward to seeing her more stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, there's so many The connections between this

440
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,639
Speaker 3: and Rebecca are strong and something like that. Obviously we have

441
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 3: a whole segment to get into. But but yeah, I think,

442
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:35,960
Speaker 3: I mean, there'll be a couple of points of comparison.

443
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,359
Speaker 3: I mean, one, I think that she's she's more you know,

444
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 3: sort of impotent and rebellious from the start than Joan

445
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 3: Fontaine ends up being for sure. The other key point

446
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 3: I think is that she really does want to be

447
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 3: part of this world. Like why because it's because I mean,

448
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,640
Speaker 3: because they're creating beautiful things. I mean, it is an exciting,

449
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 3: you know, the world of fashion is a creatively you know,

450
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 3: exciting place. And I think that she she sees possibility

451
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 3: in that world, and she sees possibility in him, and

452
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 3: she is going to fight for her at place in

453
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 3: that world and for him to be the type of

454
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 3: person that she needs him to be, which is, you know,

455
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,439
Speaker 3: somebody who needs to settle down every once in a

456
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 3: while and be able to recognize her and bend.

457
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:18,360
Speaker 6: A little bit.

458
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 3: I think she really does like the world in which

459
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 3: he introduces her, and if she didn't, she wouldn't continue

460
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 3: within it.

461
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,400
Speaker 1: I think that the two of them, that something passes

462
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,640
Speaker 1: between them when they first see each other, and it's

463
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,640
Speaker 1: a recognition and just from that moment on, I mean,

464
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 1: they look at each other, she sort of trips, she

465
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 1: looks up, they make eye contact, they both smile, and

466
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 1: from then on they have an understanding. And the fact

467
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 1: that as the movie unfolds, it becomes clear that they've

468
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 1: each completely misunderstood the other, I think is really radical

469
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 1: and exciting, because that kind of you know, eyes meet

470
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 1: eyes and now we're in love kind of thing is

471
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: such a movie shorthand for we want to get to

472
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: the romance, we want to get to the longing. It

473
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: happens especially in musicals. Off the top of my head,

474
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: things like Limz and Sweeney Todd come to mind, where

475
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: you have an entre new pair that's outside the rest

476
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 1: of the story, and it's just it's necessary to shorthand.

477
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 1: They take one look at each other and they're in love.

478
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 1: Here they take one look at each other and it

479
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: is understood that they're going to go to dinner together,

480
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,120
Speaker 1: they're probably going to have a relationship, and they each

481
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 1: think they know what terms that's going to be on.

482
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 1: And the fact that they're both so dramatically wrong and

483
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,439
Speaker 1: need to spend the rest of the movie reconciling what

484
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 1: that relationship is is like our repudiation of every fairy

485
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: tale Happily ever after ever And I just find it

486
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:44,719
Speaker 1: tremendously exciting.

487
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 4: Tasha, is it fair to say that maybe the whole

488
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 4: movie is I'm circling back to that moment, like finding

489
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,120
Speaker 4: what that moment, redefining what that moment was, and having

490
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 4: another exchange of glances that lets them move forward.

491
00:23:54,520 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 3: I can see that, yeah, that she brings him, and

492
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 3: also and also that to the line about him losing

493
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 3: if they get in the stay contest, that he'll lose

494
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 3: every time unless she'll win every time or I can't

495
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 3: remember the line specifically, which of course sets up the

496
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 3: very end of the film and where she is able

497
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 3: to make clear her intention and he is able to

498
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 3: accept it with a kind of a smile, you know,

499
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 3: as she poisons him.

500
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: I think it's so fascinating that that line gets paralleled

501
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 1: when Cyril tells him, don't pick a fight with me,

502
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 1: you will not come out alive, and it's it's the

503
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 1: exact same message to him, and I think she's just

504
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 1: as right. But it's interesting because it comes so from

505
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 1: left field. It's within what you understand about her character.

506
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 1: It doesn't fit the Rebecca pattern.

507
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 6: It's what an unbelievably great character of Cyril is.

508
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 3: We haven't gotten into connections yet, but that difference between

509
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 3: her and Missus Danvers is that there is a standard

510
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 3: that she is setting here, and she's protecting her brother.

511
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 3: She's part of the house in all of its regimented ways.

512
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 3: But there's a point at which Almah passes the for Cyril,

513
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 3: and Cyril's not going to just get rid of her

514
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 3: like everybody else. And suddenly and she warmed. You know,

515
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 3: there's a warming that happens that's different in this film

516
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 3: than it is in Rebecca and gives a kind of

517
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 3: an extra layer of real emotional depth to the serial

518
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 3: character who's also so good at just cutting people down.

519
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 5: If I have.

520
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: Any gripe with Phantom Thread, it's that by the end,

521
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: I wanted to know a little more about Cyril, about

522
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: why she disappears A little. Yeah, she does. She very

523
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: much has to disappear for the central romance to continue,

524
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 1: but sort of our last glimpse of her is in

525
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,479
Speaker 1: this very defanged way in a fantasy, and I just

526
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: I can't help but wonder kind of where she went

527
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: as a character. And that does parallel the way Rebecca

528
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: drops out. It's three most interesting characters to focus on

529
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 1: what a boat maker and a doctor and a policeman

530
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,479
Speaker 1: have to say. But at the same time, by the end,

531
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: I felt like I knew like everything about Reynolds, about

532
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 1: what was important to him, what he wanted, and what

533
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 1: he was capable of letting go, what Alma wanted and

534
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: what she was capable of doing to get there. And

535
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,160
Speaker 1: I felt like as the story went on, I knew

536
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 1: less and less about what motivated Cerial because she bends

537
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: in some very specific ways ben that ended up making

538
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,679
Speaker 1: me wonder in what other ways can she bend? Like

539
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: who is she? Ultimately, it's such a good performance and

540
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: it's such a thrill every time she's on screen, But

541
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: by the end, I really wanted just a little bit

542
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: more of all right, so who is she?

543
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 5: At her heart?

544
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 3: To me, it's one of those things where the film

545
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 3: is about what it's about, and she has her role

546
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 3: a supporting role and not not a lead role, And

547
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 3: I was satisfied with whatever role she played in the movie,

548
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 3: and her destiny beyond that is not really.

549
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 6: At issue with her.

550
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 5: Her destiny is exiled to the same realm as Alma's

551
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 5: background doesn't matter. It's not part of the story, not sir,

552
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 5: not appearing in this film. I think it is possible

553
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 5: to want something from a film that would not necessarily

554
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 5: make it a better story. I think it is possible

555
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 5: to want to know more about her without necessarily thinking

556
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 5: it belongs in the film or what.

557
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 6: No, that's true, it's a great character.

558
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 4: Well with that, we'll wind down our discussion of Phantom

559
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 4: Thread by itself, although I feel like it's so hard

560
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 4: to talk about one film without talking about the other,

561
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 4: but will formally address the connections between Rebecca and Phantom

562
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 4: Thread after the Brain.

563
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:31,719
Speaker 7: I don't know what I'm doing here.

564
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 2: I'm just waiting around like an idiot for you.

565
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 4: This was an ambush, almor to what purpose?

566
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: This is not?

567
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 3: I know it's not going as I expected. I didn't

568
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 3: mean these things to come out.

569
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 7: I'm sorry, but.

570
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 2: It was meant to be nice.

571
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 4: What did you expect?

572
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 2: I wanted time with you.

573
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 7: I wanted to have you to myself.

574
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 2: You have me all the time. No, you're talking about

575
00:27:58,680 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 2: I don't.

576
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 6: There are always people around, and if not, then there's

577
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 6: something between.

578
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 4: Us, something between us.

579
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 6: Yes, some.

580
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 1: What distance?

581
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 2: When did this happen? What happened to make you behave

582
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 2: like this? Is it because you think I don't need you? Yes?

583
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: I don't.

584
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: Well, that's very predictable.

585
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 4: You. Now it's time for connections, when we bring these

586
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 4: two films together at last and talk about all the

587
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 4: things they have in common, all the things, all the

588
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 4: many of the things. You talk about some of the things, now,

589
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 4: all things. Why don't we start with the character analogus,

590
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 4: which we already started with, but Scott conveniently drew up

591
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 4: all the analogs for us here. We're all our agreement

592
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 4: on this, right, Yeah, sure, it's the second Missus the

593
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 4: Winner and Ama Maxim and Reynolds, Missus Danvers and Cyril,

594
00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 4: and Scott suggest Rebecca and Woodcock's mother. That's some pretty

595
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 4: direct connections.

596
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 3: How about that scene with his mother in the dress

597
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 3: standing there as a ghost while he's on his sick bed.

598
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 5: I really like in that moment the way the filmmaking

599
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 5: reflects the shift in point of view, because as Alma

600
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 5: walks across the frame, like we see through Woodcock's vantage point,

601
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 5: the two of them like side by side, and the

602
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 5: assumption of this role by Alma, you know. But then

603
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 5: as Alma passes back the other way, she disappears, and like,

604
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 5: now we're in Alma's point of view, and it's just

605
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 5: it's one of those little things that Anderson does that

606
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 5: makes him really good.

607
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's bold. It's so bold to do all that stuff.

608
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 3: And that's different from Rebecca. Rebecca is an unseen presence

609
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: in the movie, and this we get this one moment

610
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 3: where this presence, this ghost makes it an appearance in

611
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 3: a scene and I think too great effect.

612
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 5: The one place where the analog kind of breaks down

613
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 5: is in Cyril slash Missus Danvers relationship to Rebecca slash

614
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 5: Woodcock's mother, Like I don't. I mean, I guess that

615
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 5: Cyril is her daughter, you know, But there's not the

616
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 5: obsessive elements that you get with Missus Danvers.

617
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 4: There's some sense that she's trying to carry on the

618
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 4: wishes of the person who's not there as well and

619
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 4: to look out for the house in a sense, it's not. Yeah,

620
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,479
Speaker 4: it does break down a little bit, but I think

621
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 4: there's still a little bit of it there.

622
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to push back on the phraseology breaks down

623
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: a little bit because I think the differences between these

624
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: two movies are very deliberate and are really strengthening the

625
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: story more than breaking it down. I don't think a

626
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: direct one to one correspondence would be a positive thing here.

627
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 5: That's why I say the analog breaks down there, not

628
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 5: the characters themselves.

629
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 1: But so if the mother is Rebecca, is what Alma

630
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: does to Reynold's is that burning down Manderlay, Like every

631
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: time she does something to destroy his body? Is she

632
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: burning down this thing that he has such an attachment

633
00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: to that he keeps wanting to go back to.

634
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 4: The body gets better. Yeah, she wants them to.

635
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 3: She wants them to slow down a little bit and

636
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 3: see her and be tender with her and not be

637
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 3: so caught up in his way of doing things. It's

638
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 3: just her way of rattling the cage a little.

639
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: Bit, sure, But I mean Maxim is both attached to

640
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: Manderlay and has been poisoned by it. Like he he

641
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: loves this place. It is where he was born and raised.

642
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: It is this thing that he was attached to. And

643
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: I think in the same way Reynold's. All of Reynolds's habits,

644
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: all of his things that he has surrounded himself with,

645
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: his like innate understanding of his control of the universe,

646
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: like that is his house. His breakfast habits are his house,

647
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: his pride in the House of Woodcock is his house.

648
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: And she she burns it to the ground, and he recovers,

649
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: and so she burns it to the ground again.

650
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 3: But can we actually say, though, that the house is

651
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 3: already starting to fall apart a little bit, that his

652
00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 3: whole the House of Woodcock in the sense that that to.

653
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 7: Share exactly anyone who uses it so good that the

654
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 7: chik speech but publicly, and then and then another person

655
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 7: who he'd served for a long time going to another designer.

656
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 6: I mean this happens.

657
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 3: It's very hard to stay on top of the fashion world, right,

658
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 3: I mean it's fashion changes also fashion cyclical as well

659
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 3: as well as it changes. But in any case, it's

660
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 3: very hard to keep up. And if you're if you're

661
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 3: Reynolds Woodcock and you're in this hermetic environment, maybe you're

662
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 3: not as in tune with the way things are changing,

663
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 3: and maybe the world changes beyond how you can control

664
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 3: or persuade with your art. Right, So in a sense

665
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 3: that that's already falling apart. She she doesn't necessarily have

666
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 3: to play a role. And I only think she's interested

667
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 3: in playing a role in destroying that. I think she

668
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 3: wants him to be strong and wants him to be

669
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 3: as creatively exciting, as dynamic as he is, I think,

670
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 3: but I think she has needs that she wants him

671
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 3: to meet as well in their habits of his that

672
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 3: he needs to break, and she breaks him down.

673
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's what I'm saying. She breaks them down

674
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: by burning down his house. I don't think she literally

675
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: burns down the house of Woodcock, which she seems to

676
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: take a very personal attachment and pride in, given the

677
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: whole business with the woman, the woman who she'll no

678
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: longer be dressed by the House of Woodcock. I'm just

679
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: saying that he has built up this armor of the

680
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: way things are, and she has to destroy it in

681
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: order to give to the man that she wants. And

682
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: I feel like the same thing happens. I mean, she's

683
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: not the one that burns down the house, but given

684
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: how many horrible memories are in Manderlay for Maxim, it

685
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: seems like it's almost a necessary thing. I think that

686
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: we haven't really talked enough about Maxim himself, and considering

687
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: him in conjunction with Reynolds makes it much more interesting

688
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: because they're both such petty tyrants. Like they're both strong

689
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: and sensitive men, and they're both capable of being sweet

690
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: and romantic in their ways. They both seem to have

691
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: certain things that they're talented at. But the movies, both

692
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: of these movies kind of hold them in contempt.

693
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 4: You know.

694
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: Maxim is just sometimes a brat and sometimes a bully

695
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,959
Speaker 1: who has a very short temper and really talks down

696
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: to his wife, and Reynolds is somebody who can't deal

697
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: with choked buttering in the morning.

698
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 5: That links the two of the very very good point.

699
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just I think that the the variations on them.

700
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 1: Rynolds as he's a petulant tyrant, but he is creating

701
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: beautiful things that are important to him, whereas Maxim is

702
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: a petulant tyrant because he's haunted by this woman that

703
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: he's sort of semi killed to the degree that the

704
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 1: code would let him. They they seem to be different

705
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: qualities of product that express themselves in very much the

706
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 1: same way.

707
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 3: I want to ask you all a question, though, which is,

708
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 3: we all have significant others in this room. How bothered

709
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 3: are you by them doing stuff around you while you're trying.

710
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: To work, Bob comes in butters just toast in the morning,

711
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: I just paunch him.

712
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 3: Okay, see, because I had a very funny experience where

713
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 3: the day after I saw Phantom for the first time,

714
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 3: my wife, who I adore, who's a wonderful person who

715
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 3: doesn't listen to this podcast, she like she was just home,

716
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 3: like on a sick day, or she was or whatever.

717
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 3: She was home and I was working, and I work.

718
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 3: My desk is right by the kitchen, and I just

719
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 3: she was back behind me, like preparing food, and I

720
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 3: couldn't concentrate, and it was just like here I am locked.

721
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,439
Speaker 6: I am I am the tyrant now being irritated.

722
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 5: By But that is a reaction that you have born

723
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 5: of a relationship that spans a while, a very long time,

724
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 5: and a deep understanding that these two characters with Kak

725
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 5: and Alma don't have at this point in the movie.

726
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 3: No, but I mean in terms of just that when

727
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 3: you're in the process of creating something that everyone has

728
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 3: their kind of like little zone, and if that's disrupted

729
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 3: in some way, say by the spreading of butter or

730
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 3: jam on a toast, bit bit of a problem.

731
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: I just have to give a shout out to the

732
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: folly and phantom thread. The folly of that breakfast is amazing,

733
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: the way that the butter, not just the buttering, but

734
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: the scraping of the burned bits of the toast. Like

735
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: I've heard gunshots and movies that didn't seem that loud.

736
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: And there are other places where where people are walking

737
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: around the House of Woodcock where the folly is similarly

738
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 1: cranked up to just ear splitting levels of Oh my goodness,

739
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: could you possibly walk louder, you horrible person.

740
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 5: God, it's like the hardest floors in London, and then

741
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,280
Speaker 5: and like it just it makes the house just seem

742
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 5: so much more. Yeah, sterill or no, that's imposing and

743
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 5: haunted in a way. I mean this the House of

744
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 5: Woodcock is. I think you could say it's haunted in

745
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 5: a way by Woodcock's own sort of obsession, artistic obsession

746
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 5: and fear about the continuation of his legacy and like

747
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 5: all these things that sort of drive his pettiness slash petulance,

748
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 5: you know. And I think you know, since we're talking

749
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 5: about character analogs and we kind of touch on this already,

750
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 5: there is a definite analog between the houses. The houses

751
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 5: as characters in these films. And I think it's interesting

752
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 5: that in Rebecca Manderlay is like part of a remnant

753
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 5: of British aristocracy, where like houses are tied to a

754
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 5: family name and people are defined by their homes to

755
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 5: a certain extent. And I think Anderson is really smart

756
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 5: and extrapolating that tradition to a house that is a

757
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 5: working home. Basically it is where he makes his art,

758
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 5: is where his craft is created, you know, and so

759
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 5: it has that deep connection to the character as a

760
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 5: person beyond just where they live.

761
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 6: And you get in.

762
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 3: Both places from the people who work within them that

763
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 3: just almost military rigor of just of quiet understanding of

764
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 3: what everyone's roles are. They're all sort of marching unison.

765
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 3: Even when they have a massive emergency like this dress

766
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 3: that's been ruined, that has to be ready by the

767
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 3: next morning, there is a quiet, just assemblage that happens

768
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 3: where everyone knows what they're supposed to do. And all

769
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 3: that speaks to this case Reynolds and to Cyril as well.

770
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 3: I guess who built this house and this business in

771
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 3: a very specific way to function a specific way and

772
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 3: functions extremely well. It's just can be also oppressive and

773
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 3: intimidating to strangers who enter it and either don't know

774
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,280
Speaker 3: or don't abide by the tacit rules that are in place.

775
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: Speaking of those strangers, to talk a little more about

776
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: Fontaine's character and Alma in the parallels between them, I

777
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: think it's very interesting that Fontaine comes in into the

778
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 1: house awkward and shy and not asserting herself at all,

779
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: and so much of the film is building up to

780
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 1: that moment where she claims the family name, she claims

781
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: her right and her role and her privilege as his wife.

782
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: Alma keeps pushing back just constantly from the very beginning.

783
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 1: From that the business with the staring contest. She goes

784
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 1: along with Rynold's over and over and presents herself as

785
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: like a very passive woman who lets him have his way.

786
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: There's a knowingness about her from the start that I

787
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: think is very interesting. That whole sequence at the beginning

788
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 1: where he takes her back to his place and starts

789
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,720
Speaker 1: measuring her for a dress, and she so clearly thinks

790
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: that this is for play until Cyril shows up and

791
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: changes the dynamic of what's going on. Oh my gosh,

792
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 1: that's so good. We could just waste could spend an

793
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: hour talking about that sequence alone and the tensions that

794
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: go between them. But when he takes her into the house,

795
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 1: she keeps pushing back on things like not liking the

796
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: fabric of the dress that she's in, and it makes

797
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: him really angry because she asserts herself, I don't like

798
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,399
Speaker 1: this fabric, I like my own taste. I don't mind

799
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: getting in trouble. Maybe I'm trying to get in trouble.

800
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: And it happens over and over and over that she

801
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: pushes back in little ways, and the difference between that

802
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: that long ramp up to the one big pushback versus

803
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: just the constant little reminders that Alma has like a

804
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: personality of her own is fascinating. But then when she

805
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: does finally fully assert herself, it's in the exact same

806
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,479
Speaker 1: way by claiming his name. It comes in the form

807
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: of the doctor identifying her as missus Woodcock when they're

808
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: not actually married. But you can see on her face

809
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: her sort of decision to, oh, okay, I'm going to

810
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: claim that, I'm not going to correct that. And so

811
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 1: in both cases, they take the name, they take the identity,

812
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: they take the power. It just comes. It's a series

813
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: of small steps for Alma, it's one huge hurdle for

814
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: Fontaine's character.

815
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 3: One of the things that that was so exciting for

816
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 3: me with this pairing because we've done so many different

817
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 3: types of pairings on the show. We've done films that

818
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 3: were influential to a certain new film, or we've done

819
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 3: a new film by a director or an older phone

820
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 3: by a director. We've done remakes of certain movies, but

821
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 3: this was one where I feel like there's such a

822
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 3: sophisticated and specific conversation or relationship that is happening between

823
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 3: two movies that Paul tamas Anderson has repurposed Rebecca for

824
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 3: his own ends, and he's managed to find some sort

825
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 3: of place where he is borrowing characters and ideas so

826
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 3: specifically from the Hitchcock movie, but then making it also

827
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 3: such a personal story about an artist such as himself,

828
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 3: and you know, a partner such as his wife who

829
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 3: is Maya Rudolph, and it all kind of comes together

830
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 3: as this unique personal thing that is born out of

831
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 3: a very specific work, which is great, which is which

832
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 3: kind of made this pairing particularly exciting. Of course, as

833
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 3: I mentioned earlier, that revelation that I had seeing Phantom

834
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 3: threat a second time and understanding that that that film

835
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,919
Speaker 3: had its Rebecca as well, and how that is kind

836
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 3: of where the emotion of the film is.

837
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 4: I would say also that the level of difficulty here

838
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 4: is pretty tough to do this sort of direct homage

839
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,399
Speaker 4: while still making it your own movie. I don't know

840
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 4: that too many other directors could pull that off. Or

841
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 4: maybe we should give credit to Rebecca here, because it's

842
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 4: such a rich text. It's it's so influential, you know,

843
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 4: you can see its influence many different places. But to

844
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 4: do your own thing with that, you know, I think,

845
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 4: I think it does help when you have a movie

846
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,479
Speaker 4: like that, but it's still a pretty daring move.

847
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, just to have a lead character is

848
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 3: who is basically a Paul Thomas Anderson type because he's

849
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 3: a total genius who creates these garments that everybody wants

850
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,439
Speaker 3: and is pretty much the best at what he does.

851
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,879
Speaker 6: That takes a certain amount of confidence too.

852
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 5: It doesn't have a lot of time for you know,

853
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 5: trends or chic.

854
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 4: He's chasing his own mus he's not queuing up for

855
00:42:58,320 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 4: a Marvel.

856
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: Movie or he's you know, sitting still with his muse

857
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 1: because he believes that he's found her and he doesn't

858
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: need to pursue you know that that's for other houses,

859
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 1: Like he knows what he does, and he's angry at

860
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,879
Speaker 1: the world for having moved on. What's interesting. I think

861
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: you're exactly right, Scott, And I think what interests me

862
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: most about the dialogue that these films are having is

863
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: the sense that you can see all of these one

864
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: to one correspondences, but that they're so remixed. You know,

865
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: it's a remix rather than a remake, and so you

866
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: have all of these elements that you see coming through

867
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: very very specific analogs. And we talked about the characters,

868
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: but one of the ones that strikes me most is

869
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: how the two movies are framed. How Rebecca begins with

870
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: this like long description of a dream of coming back

871
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: to Manderlay, which sets the whole thing up. Is a

872
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 1: Gothic novel, and again it reminds me of the Haunting

873
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,879
Speaker 1: of Hill House. It's very specifically this framework that explains

874
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: what you're about to see and how you're supposed to

875
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 1: feel about the relationship that they had with the house

876
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: and the relationship that they have with the past. You

877
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: get that in Phantom Thread in the form of the

878
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: interview that she's having at the beginning with I believe

879
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 1: it's the doctor. I keep watching it and keeping uncertain.

880
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 4: It's not revealed until later in the film, but yeah,

881
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 4: it is a doctor.

882
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: He's just he's such a generic person, like both a

883
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: generic looking person and a generic person within the structure.

884
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 5: The only other male character of any consequence in the film.

885
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: But the idea there is so similar. You know, it's

886
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,320
Speaker 1: telling you at the very outset, this is a story

887
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: that's being told. This is how you should feel about

888
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: this relationship. This is me looking back on the past

889
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 1: and setting it up for you. They serve such similar

890
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: functions and yet in execution they're so different. In style,

891
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 1: they're so different, and nothing of what Alma says about

892
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:55,320
Speaker 1: the relationship directly relates to what Fontane's character says about Manderlay.

893
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: It's just it's so interesting to me that you can

894
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 1: see where one would come out of the other, but

895
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: it's still so distinctive and so much its own thing.

896
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: And that seems to extend throughout both movies, just the

897
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: way they're put together.

898
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 5: In terms of the remix, not a remake idea, you know,

899
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,399
Speaker 5: I think we're just going to kind of glance real

900
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 5: briefly off some of the other connections between these films

901
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 5: without going deep into them. And one small place where

902
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 5: I saw that was in both film's treatment of food

903
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 5: and eating. And you know, there's a lot of discussion

904
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 5: of eating in both of these films, and in Rebecca

905
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 5: it mostly comes in the form of Maxim telling his

906
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 5: wife to eat or her being told to eat, or

907
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 5: like meals are often I think in that film uses

908
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 5: a depiction of his control over her to a certain extent,

909
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 5: and your Egg's like a good girl exactly, and where

910
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 5: in Phantom Thread it's more Alma who is using you know,

911
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 5: food and eating to exert control onto Reynolds. So it's

912
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 5: again they're not one to one corollaries, but they're both

913
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 5: kind of playing with these themes around eating and food

914
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 5: that are complimentary.

915
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 3: Obviously, his breakfast order is such a critical part of

916
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 3: the movie, and that's one of those scenes that we

917
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 3: talked about that has to work in order for the

918
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 3: entire rest of the movie to work, that we have

919
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 3: to believe this this this breakfast order, and then the

920
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 3: exchange that they have, the fact that that very odd

921
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,439
Speaker 3: and yet sweet gesture that he makes where he.

922
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 6: Keeps the order.

923
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: Because I'm taking it now.

924
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, I know what it like.

925
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,760
Speaker 3: It's like this souvenir of their exchange, such an unusual

926
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 3: it's unusual play.

927
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 6: It's like, what is that?

928
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,280
Speaker 3: What is that line from Dodgeball about Cotton?

929
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 4: What does he say?

930
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, it's a bold it's a bold strategy Cotton.

931
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 3: Let's see if it pays off for him. Come on, people,

932
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 3: this is this is know your memes, for God's sakes.

933
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 6: So I'm not sure that.

934
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 1: A Dodgeball quote right rises to the level of a.

935
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 3: Meme exactly exact specifically. Come on, the listener is going

936
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 3: to back me up on this one. It's a bold

937
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 3: strategy you've got, and let's see if it pays off

938
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 3: from and any case, it does pay off, as we know,

939
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 3: and and then you know, and then at the end

940
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 3: of the movie, it's all all about the mushroom in

941
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 3: the in the omelet and him accepting it. And so

942
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,879
Speaker 3: food certainly plays a really important part in this movie,

943
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 3: and in Rebecca it can be quite a strange. I mean,

944
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 3: one of my favorite scenes in that movie is when

945
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 3: she has a meal at the table that's been laid

946
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 3: out for.

947
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 5: She doesn't even know what individual chafing dishes like, I

948
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 5: want a life where I have like my own spread

949
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 5: of chafing dishes laid out for.

950
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 3: But does she doesn't know what's in them and whether

951
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 3: how whether they're supposed to be poured over something.

952
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I mean it's it's worth noting that her

953
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 5: order when they have breakfast together, which they also bond

954
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 5: over breakfast, so there's a direct one to one correlation

955
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 5: for you. But like her order because you get a

956
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,760
Speaker 5: shot of the menu. You see what's on this menu,

957
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 5: and it's a pretty fru frough. It's a pretty Yes,

958
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 5: it's a pretty elaborate menu, and she orders scrambled eggs.

959
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, it would be more like basic than that.

960
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it occurs to me that Reynold's original

961
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 1: order at her restaurant, Like it surprises me because it

962
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 1: surprised me the first time I saw it, because it

963
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: just feels like it goes on and.

964
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 2: On and on.

965
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: He's such a thin man, and we I mean, we

966
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: get that shot of him dressing. He's just he's a

967
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: narrow dude who looks like he lives on coffee and cigarettes.

968
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: And then he's ordering food and food and food and food,

969
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 1: to the point where she leaves him a note that

970
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: says for the hungry boy, like that's how she introduces herself.

971
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 1: But it feels like that sequence is the equivalent of

972
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: the honeymoon videos. We never see him have that relationship

973
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: with food again. We see him take like a single

974
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 1: disdainful bite of asparagus or a single angry bite of

975
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 1: a sweet roll. We see him rejecting food, we see

976
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: him drinking tea. He never seems to care about that

977
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,919
Speaker 1: about food in the same way, and he never gives

978
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: himself back into that sensuality of sitting down to a

979
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,280
Speaker 1: huge buffet. And it's the same thing as the honeymoon

980
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 1: where we never again see that level of affection, that

981
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,919
Speaker 1: level of relationship. It's like the two of them at

982
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:10,240
Speaker 1: that restaurant where he orders the entire menu are having

983
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 1: a moment in their relationship that's just never going to

984
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: be repeated.

985
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 4: Yeah with Renalds, Like, it's a sense that driving up

986
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 4: to the country and having breakfast by himself, it's a

987
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 4: rare moment where he lets himself do what he wants.

988
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 4: He's off schedule and he's on vacation, he's restored. Yeah, exactly,

989
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 4: anything could happen. He could have a big breakfast, not

990
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,879
Speaker 4: just a little breakfast. And you know, I think when

991
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 4: you live your life as rigidly as he does, that's

992
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 4: these tiny breaks from that make a big deal. And

993
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 4: I think, you know, so bunch of the movie is

994
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 4: making breaks matter, making them more significant.

995
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 6: You know.

996
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 1: Another parallel that just struck me really strongly rewatching Phantom

997
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 1: Thread is the car so tearing around in these tiny

998
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: little two seaters and the act of driving as an

999
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 1: act of control. And I don't have like a huge

1000
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 1: observation here. I think both movies are just very interested

1001
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 1: in the intimacy of two people in a car alone together,

1002
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 1: and particularly in the act of control of a man

1003
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: driving a woman somewhere. I feel like there is a

1004
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: repeated act in both of these movies of a woman

1005
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 1: getting into a car with a man and seating controlled

1006
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: him for a time period. And Reynolds drives like a

1007
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: crazy man, whereas Maxim drives like a cavalier, rich man

1008
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: who knows that you know, he has this expensive car

1009
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: and he can go anywhere he likes. They both very

1010
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 1: much express their characters through the cars they own and

1011
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 1: how they drive, and the women in their lives very

1012
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: much express their characters by going along with it.

1013
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 3: There's a difference, though, I think in terms of the

1014
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:46,280
Speaker 3: women and their reaction.

1015
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 6: To the driving.

1016
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, because I think there's a there's a degree

1017
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 3: of exhilaration and pleasure that Alma gets from driving with

1018
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 3: mister Woodcock that is not akin to Well, I think

1019
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 3: the most important scene is in terms of the most

1020
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 3: important driving scene in Rebecca, which is that her getting

1021
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 3: rained on and him not giving a rap about it. Basically,

1022
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,800
Speaker 3: she's uncomfortable with the convertible and she and when it

1023
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 3: starts raining, he just, you know, offers her a coat

1024
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 3: to throw over her head, and it's sort of a

1025
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 3: symbol of his callousness rather than his sense of the

1026
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 3: sense of adventure and fun and kind of like out

1027
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 3: of controlledness that you get with Reynolds in his car,

1028
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 3: although in.

1029
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,879
Speaker 1: The early days you do see Fontaine's character very much

1030
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,760
Speaker 1: enjoying the freedom of getting into that car and getting

1031
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 1: away from her controlling employer.

1032
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 6: That's for sure.

1033
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 4: Well, we could go on and on and on, and

1034
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 4: it certainly is a pleasure to find a film that

1035
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 4: pays off the premise on her podcast is so well

1036
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 4: has these two films to do together if you want

1037
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 4: to watch these movies. Rebecca, despite being one of the

1038
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 4: most historically important and artistically accomplished films of Hitchcock's career,

1039
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 4: is not currently streaming anywhere. You can find it pretty

1040
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 4: easily on Blu ray and DVD, however, most recently via

1041
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 4: a very nice Criterion edition which has all kinds of

1042
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 4: wonderful things on my disc like Joan Fontaine on talking

1043
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 4: to Tom Snye about the way things were in Hollywood.

1044
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 4: It's good stuff. Phantom Thread is currently in the cinema's nationwide,

1045
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 4: including a limited run in seventy milimeters in some cities.

1046
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 4: Check out if you can. We'll be right back with

1047
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 4: your Next Picture Show. Finally, it's time to catch each

1048
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 4: other up on films or film related items we've seen

1049
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 4: in the interim since our last podcast. We call it

1050
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 4: Your Next Picture Show and hopes that it will put

1051
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 4: some interesting choices on your radar. Genevie, you've when in

1052
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 4: the film world has been good for you lately?

1053
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 5: Well, I want to talk about a couple films that

1054
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 5: Phantom Thread made me think of for very different reasons.

1055
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 5: The first one is a movie from twenty seventeen called

1056
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 5: Lady Macbeth, which Keith recommended on this podcast a few

1057
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 5: months back, directed by William Oldroyd, but I only recently

1058
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,720
Speaker 5: caught up with it, and it's been on my mind

1059
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 5: ever since, and more so since seeing Phantom Thread, with

1060
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 5: which it shares one very notable plot device that I

1061
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 5: won't spoil. It's also a film about a woman asserting

1062
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 5: herself in an unhappy marriage, though in the case of

1063
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 5: Lady Macbeth, Catherine, played in a brilliant performance by Francis Pugh,

1064
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 5: is much less ambiguous in her intentions than Almah is.

1065
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,760
Speaker 5: This is a dark and beautiful and beautifully acted film

1066
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 5: with a lot of ideas about female sexuality and patriarchy

1067
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 5: and revenge that all sort of not together into this

1068
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 5: unsettling but deeply resonant for me story. I really enjoyed it.

1069
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 5: I think it makes a very interesting companion piece to

1070
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 5: Phantom Thread, and you can rent it on Amazon or

1071
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:33,720
Speaker 5: various streaming services.

1072
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:33,919
Speaker 6: Now.

1073
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 5: I also want to briefly recommend a very different but

1074
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 5: no less apt companion piece in the form of the

1075
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,879
Speaker 5: twenty fifteen documentary You're and I, directed by Frederick Cheng,

1076
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 5: which takes an in depth behind the scenes look at

1077
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 5: a transitional time for the storied House of Diure back

1078
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 5: in twenty twelve, when it got a new creative director

1079
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 5: who's a bit of an outsider in the world of couture.

1080
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 5: That's a story that kind of gives the film its shape,

1081
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 5: but I remember it much more strongly and affectionately for

1082
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 5: its look into the nuts and bolts coture creation. Particularly,

1083
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 5: it's focused on the Dure Attilier, the workshop staffed by

1084
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 5: artisans tasked with making these garments reality and sort of.

1085
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 5: The third prong of its approach has to do with

1086
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 5: the ghost of Christian Jure that lingers over the house

1087
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 5: and how it affects the house's navigation of the divide

1088
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 5: between art and commerce and high fashion. It's a short

1089
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 5: little documentary with lots of interesting tidbits of your all

1090
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 5: interested in fashion production and it's streaming on Netflix. So

1091
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 5: Lady macbeth and Dure and I I really.

1092
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 6: Want to see Lady McBeth.

1093
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 3: That was one of the one of the big ones

1094
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 3: from last year that I never got around to seeing.

1095
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 6: And I know it was.

1096
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 3: A it was a Golden Brick nominee.

1097
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:38,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, I really loved it, I.

1098
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 6: Really and it's something we actually discussed doing.

1099
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,240
Speaker 5: But we briefly discussed pairing it with Rebecca.

1100
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 6: Did we really that was the one?

1101
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:45,879
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1102
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 6: Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's uh. I guess we missed

1103
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 6: one thing and got the other thing.

1104
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 5: But I think I think this was a little more

1105
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 5: apt pairing than Lady Macbeth would have been. It's a

1106
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 5: it's a very different story. Yeah, Scott, what about you?

1107
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,800
Speaker 3: I wanted to you recommend a movie that is also

1108
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,760
Speaker 3: streaming on Netflix now called All These Sleepless Nights. It

1109
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:11,839
Speaker 3: is a hybrid between documentary and fiction. I don't think

1110
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 3: it really cares at all to make any strong distinction

1111
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:15,839
Speaker 3: between the two.

1112
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 6: It's set entirely. It's set in Warsaw.

1113
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 3: It's about a couple of young dudes who just go

1114
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 3: from party to party, and dance hall to dance hall

1115
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 3: and the various open, open air get togethers in the

1116
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 3: city of Warsaw. And the way I've been describing is

1117
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 3: if the guys from a Night at the Roxbury were

1118
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 3: actually as hip as they thought they were, That's kind

1119
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 3: of what this movie is. But it reminded me also

1120
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 3: of the Paulo Sorrentino movie The Great Beauty, which is

1121
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 3: in that it's so many plotless and also takes place

1122
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 3: also kind of about the city in which it explores,

1123
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 3: and about that the relationship between a very old city

1124
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 3: and then and then this very young, vibrant culture that

1125
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,800
Speaker 3: sort of deca in culture really that's so of invading

1126
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:05,360
Speaker 3: it its spaces. It is an experiential movie.

1127
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 6: It is.

1128
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 3: It reminded me a little bit of another film like

1129
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 3: Song to Song, which really disappointed me, the Terrence Malick film.

1130
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 6: And then it's just it's really just about.

1131
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 3: Being in the moment and with people who are misbehaving

1132
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 3: a lot of the time, acting indulgently. There's a lot

1133
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 3: of cocaine use, a lot of sex, a lot of

1134
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 3: like partying, but also a certain amount of vacancy that

1135
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 3: goes along with that too. And I think it's one

1136
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 3: of those movies that you just have to kind of

1137
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 3: be swept up in. It's there's a lot of tracking

1138
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 3: shots and a lot of color and music, and you

1139
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 3: just kind of have to feel what these characters are feeling.

1140
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 3: And I think the film by Michael Marzak, who's a

1141
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 3: first time filmmaker, does a good job sort of immersing

1142
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 3: you in that world. So if you want to be

1143
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 3: in the world of Poland's equivalent to a knight at

1144
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:56,760
Speaker 3: the Roxbury, who does it? Then all these leapless nights

1145
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 3: is for you. Has anyone else seen this one?

1146
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,479
Speaker 1: No, but I caught it. I like a cut bits

1147
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: of it in David Aerlick's Top twenty five of the

1148
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 1: Year video, Yeah, and immediately wanted to see that. It

1149
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 1: just seems so imagistic.

1150
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 6: It is that it is that.

1151
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 3: I think it's one of those movies that you're like,

1152
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 3: that you could see in a montage like that and

1153
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 3: be like, holy crap, what is this? It's not that good,

1154
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 3: But it is, as you say, it's an experiential thing,

1155
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 3: and I think it's worth sampling. I mean, if it's

1156
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 3: on Netflix, watch it for a little bit, see if

1157
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 3: you get in the end of the groove, and maybe

1158
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 3: it will carry you the whole way as it did me.

1159
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 4: So Keith, Well, I certainly have a you know, sort

1160
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:37,440
Speaker 4: of a marginal art house film recommend called A Happy

1161
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 4: Death Day. She was a horror film that came out

1162
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 4: last fall and I missed it. I caught up with

1163
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 4: it recently and it just kind of just threw it

1164
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 4: on in a whim when I had a little time,

1165
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 4: and I was very pleasantly surprised it is. It is

1166
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 4: a delightful film that has a ridiculous premise that it

1167
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 4: knows is ridiculous and kind of goes all the way

1168
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 4: with it. It's it's basically Groundhog Day made as a

1169
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 4: horror film. It stars Jessica Roth as a college student

1170
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 4: who keeps waking it up on her birthday, and at

1171
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:10,439
Speaker 4: some point in the day she gets killed, and she

1172
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 4: relives the day, and at some point suspects that she'll

1173
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 4: only be able to stop living the day if she

1174
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 4: can figure out who is killing her, which leads to

1175
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 4: all manner of clever devices. And I don't know, it's

1176
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 4: very brisk, it's very it's quite funny. I think Roth

1177
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 4: is really good. It's structed by Christopher Landon, son of

1178
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 4: Michael Landon, formerly involved in some of the Paranormal Activity films,

1179
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 4: and written by comic book writer. I don't really care

1180
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 4: for it very much named Scott Lovedell, but credit where

1181
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 4: it's due. He wrote a good movie here, or his

1182
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 4: script led to a good movie here. I'll find it

1183
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 4: highly enjoyable, and I think kind of getting into the

1184
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 4: parts I it's particularly enjoyed, would be would spoil the fun.

1185
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 4: But if you are inclined to, if you enjoy horror

1186
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 4: films with clever premises and are looking for a very

1187
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 4: fun way to pass ninety six minutes, this is one's

1188
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 4: for you. It's on Blue and I believe it's extreaming services. Now, Tasha,

1189
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 4: how about you? What have you seen lately?

1190
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 1: I am going to join you in going directly from

1191
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 1: the high toned movies we've been talking about to recommending

1192
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 1: some lurid, fun trash. This little movie called Mom and

1193
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 1: Dad that I have been looking for to the opportunity

1194
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 1: to recommend since Tiff At least maybe it was it

1195
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 1: was probably Sundance. This is definitely the kind of you know,

1196
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 1: tender romantic movie that definitely plays sun Dance all the time.

1197
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 1: It's the latest from a fellow named Brian Taylor, known

1198
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:40,080
Speaker 1: as half of Neveldene and Taylor, the team behind Crank

1199
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 1: and Gamer and the writers of Jonah Hex, which is

1200
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: one of the worst movies of all time. Mom and

1201
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 1: Dad is a chaotic movie. It's a story very strangely told.

1202
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 1: It's full of flashbacks that come it really inopportune and

1203
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 1: awkward times. It's a story pieced together for all of

1204
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 1: these strange chunks and tonally it's just all over the map.

1205
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 1: It is so much fun to watch, and in large

1206
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,440
Speaker 1: part that's because of Nicholas Cage and Someone Blair, who

1207
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 1: star as parents who are experiencing this strange horror movie

1208
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 1: phenomenon where suddenly all parents feel a rabid, uncontrollable compulsion

1209
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 1: to kill their own children, and the two children in

1210
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 1: question are a teenager played by Anne Winters and a

1211
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,600
Speaker 1: little boy. It becomes kind of a siege movie with

1212
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 1: generation versus generation, with the kids trying to survive in

1213
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: various clever escape room kind of ways and the parents

1214
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 1: trying to kill them. But it also becomes kind of

1215
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:46,920
Speaker 1: this strangely philosophical meditation on the fact that one generation

1216
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 1: gives way to the next, and that it's kind of

1217
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 1: the job of adults to have the children that will

1218
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:56,480
Speaker 1: replace and reject them, that will eventually take over their

1219
01:00:56,520 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 1: lifestyles and change them from care free use into emotionally

1220
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 1: worn adults. And it's got a lot of really interesting

1221
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 1: thoughts on that, but they come via one of the

1222
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 1: most rabid balls out ridiculous Nicholas Cage performances we have

1223
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: seen in many, many years. Actually, when I got a

1224
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 1: streaming copy of this, I threw a little party at

1225
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 1: my house and had like ten people and some bottles

1226
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 1: of wine and just sat them down and watched them

1227
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:30,040
Speaker 1: watch this movie, which was immensely entertaining experience. It is

1228
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:34,560
Speaker 1: definitely the kind of not great, but incredibly entertaining movie

1229
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 1: to watch with a bunch of friends and some booze.

1230
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 1: It's in theory in a limited number of theaters. It's

1231
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 1: also simultaneously hitting a VOD and digital. I really recommend

1232
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 1: dialing it up on your on demand, getting some booze,

1233
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 1: getting some friends, and just sitting down and watching this

1234
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 1: mom and dad, crazy, crazy movie.

1235
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 6: I'm on board.

1236
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:56,440
Speaker 5: I think I might be on board too. I think

1237
01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:57,640
Speaker 5: you may have convinced me, Tasha.

1238
01:01:57,760 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 1: It is a little on the gory side. It does

1239
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 1: not have the kind of tension that tends to worry

1240
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 1: you in horror films. It's a horror film in the

1241
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:10,200
Speaker 1: sense that it's it's sloppy and bloody and obsessed with

1242
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 1: the idea of suddenly an unexpected thing happens and everyone

1243
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: must kill. But it's not a very scary movie. And

1244
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 1: it's it's not a very tense movie. It's wackado over

1245
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 1: the top.

1246
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, circling back for the Genevieve counseling session that I

1247
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:26,919
Speaker 4: think also Happy Death Day, you be okay with It's

1248
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 4: PG thirteen very solidly in the PG thirteen zone.

1249
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 5: You guys are determined to convert me to a horror

1250
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:34,240
Speaker 5: for Shanado. Maybe this will be the year that it happens.

1251
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:35,919
Speaker 6: I can just see it now.

1252
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 3: Tenevie Vukoski at home putting Happy Death Day into the old.

1253
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 6: Double feature DVD player.

1254
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 1: Baby Steps, Jennimen messy, bloody Baby Steps.

1255
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 4: And that's it for this week's edition to the Next

1256
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 4: Picture Show. Our next episode's coming out February sixth and eighth. Scott,

1257
01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 4: what are we discussing?

1258
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:01,400
Speaker 3: Director David Wayne's new comedy of feudal and stupid Gesture

1259
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 3: premieres on Netflix on January twenty sixth. It's about the

1260
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 3: founding and misadventures of National Lampoon, the influential magazine and

1261
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 3: comedy brand started by Doug Kenny. But in typical Wayne fashion,

1262
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 3: it isn't a straightforward biopick, but a meta biopic with

1263
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 3: Will Forte playing Kenny and Martin mull playing a version

1264
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 3: of Kenny commenting on the action. On our next episode,

1265
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 3: we wanted to examine the Wayne school of offbeat ensemble

1266
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 3: comedy through his cult favorite Wet Hot American Summer, an

1267
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 3: eighty summer camp parody that's full of odd references, surreal humor,

1268
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 3: and random silliness. We'll show you the fever into the fire,

1269
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 3: taking you higher and higher.

1270
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 4: In the meantime, we'd love to hear your feedback on

1271
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:44,240
Speaker 4: this week's discussion of Rebecca, Phantom Thread, and anything else

1272
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 4: film related you'd like to talk about. We want to

1273
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 4: include your thoughts on future episodes of the show. You

1274
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 4: can leave a short voicemail at seven seven three two

1275
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 4: three four nine seven three zero or email us at

1276
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 4: comments at next Picture Show dot net. We may post

1277
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 4: your response on Facebook for discussion or read it on

1278
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:01,560
Speaker 4: a future episode of the show. Finally, before closing out

1279
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 4: this week's episode, where can we find everyone these days?

1280
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 5: Genevieve, You can find my work at the culture section

1281
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:08,480
Speaker 5: at box dot com, and you can find me on

1282
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:09,880
Speaker 5: Twitter at Genevievekoski.

1283
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 3: Scott I'm on Twitter at Scott underscorez A bias, and

1284
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:15,480
Speaker 3: you can find my work in The New York Times,

1285
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 3: Washington Post, NPR and other fine publications. I'm also the

1286
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 3: editor in chief of the Sothoscope musings blog Tasha.

1287
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 1: I am the film and TV editor over at the

1288
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:30,520
Speaker 1: Verge dot com. I occasionally write about filmantv over at

1289
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 1: the Verge dot com, including writing about Mom and Dad

1290
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:36,960
Speaker 1: and interviewing Brian Taylor about what it was like giving

1291
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:39,600
Speaker 1: that in that performance out of Nicholas Cage. I'm also

1292
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Tasha Robinson Keith.

1293
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 4: You can find me at Box dot com, where I'm

1294
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 4: editor of Film and Television there and occasionally write. I

1295
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 4: wrote a thing about watching The Breakfast Club as an

1296
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:51,920
Speaker 4: old person. If you'd like to read that, you can

1297
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 4: find me on Twitter at K three thousand. You can

1298
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 4: stay updated on The Next Picture Show by visiting Next

1299
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 4: Picture Show dot Net via Twitter at at Next Picture Pod,

1300
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:03,120
Speaker 4: via Facebook at Facebook dot com slash Next Picture Show.

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Speaker 4: And if you haven't subscribed to the show on Apple

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Speaker 4: Podcasts already, please consider it. Apple podcast subscriptions are an

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Speaker 4: important part of getting podcasts more prominence and more listeners.

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Speaker 4: And while you're there, we appreciate everybody in review every

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Speaker 4: thumbs up helps us find new listeners and keep the

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Speaker 4: show going. Thanks to Dan the Steak Jakes for his

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Speaker 4: assistants producing this podcast, and it's thanks to Denmark Records

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Speaker 4: for providing recording space at their home base Riverside Studios.

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Speaker 4: The Next Picture Show is proud to be part of

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Speaker 4: the Film Sputning family of podcasts and the Panaply Network.

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Speaker 4: Please tune in next time.