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Speaker 1: Welcome to Talking Politics, and welcome to twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 2: This is the first Talking Politics pot of the year.

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Speaker 1: But we also posted my brand new interview with Boston's

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Speaker 1: own Dennis Leary and Off the Cup.

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Speaker 2: Go check it out. It is fantastic. He is such

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Speaker 2: a treasure. Loved it.

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Speaker 1: Also, if you missed it, we wrapped up twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: five with a compilation of the best answers from my

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Speaker 1: celebrity guests to the all important question of when is

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Speaker 1: it iced coffee season? Here from Charlemagne, the God, Bradley Whitford,

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Speaker 1: Jenny Garth, James Vanderbeck.

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Speaker 2: So ma anymore.

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Speaker 1: That's also over Off the Cup. It's really fun to

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Speaker 1: listen to. But here we're gonna talk about politics. It

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Speaker 1: was such a nice break from it and then a

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Speaker 1: rough reentry. Okay, bam, we're back and we're into nation

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Speaker 1: building again. We're into regime change. We're imperialists now. In

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Speaker 1: case you missed it, just before they break, the Trump

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Speaker 1: administration bombed Venezuela and captured President Nicola Maduro and his wife.

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Speaker 1: Trump and his surrogates are saying all kinds of things

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Speaker 1: about this. It's about ending the drug cartels, it's about

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Speaker 1: ending an illegitimate regime, it's about oil. They can't decide

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Speaker 1: what the actual reason is for why we did this

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Speaker 1: without congressional approval, so they're just kind of throwing them

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Speaker 1: all out there.

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Speaker 2: But I have one more. I think it's pretty obviously

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Speaker 2: also about the Epstein files. War is a great distraction,

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Speaker 2: as we all know.

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Speaker 1: And later in today's show, actually I'm going to talk

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Speaker 1: to someone who knows a lot about that, the author

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Speaker 1: of American Hero, which is the book that became Wag

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Speaker 1: the Dog. But before that, let's talk about America first.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: America First is Trump's signature foreign policy doctrine. He's been

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Speaker 1: pushing it since twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen. He didn't invent it,

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Speaker 1: but he's he's taken it up, okay, and it's become

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Speaker 1: his foreign policy sort of slow again, to end the

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Speaker 1: kinds of forever wars that previous administrations had gotten us into.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen, this was Trump back in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, the war in Iraq was a big, fat mistake.

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Speaker 3: All right, now, you can take it anywhere you want,

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Speaker 3: and took it took Jim Bush. If you remember, at

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Speaker 3: the beginning of his announcement, when he announced the president

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Speaker 3: took him five days. He went back, it was a mistake.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't a mistake. It took him five days before

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Speaker 3: his people told him what to say, and he ultimately

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Speaker 3: said it was a mistake. The war in Iraq, we

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Speaker 3: spent two trillion dollars, thousands of lives. We don't even

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Speaker 3: have it. Iran is taking over a Raq with the

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Speaker 3: second largest oil reserves in the world. Obviously it was

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Speaker 3: a mistake. So George Bush made a mistake. We can

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Speaker 3: make mistakes, but that one was a beauty. We should

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Speaker 3: have never been in a wreck. We have destabilized the Middle.

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Speaker 1: Eg we don't even have it. That kind of was

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Speaker 1: a mask slip right there. We don't even have it,

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Speaker 1: like as if we were supposed to take a rack

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Speaker 1: when we've went into it. That's sort of a key

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Speaker 1: into his insight. But back then he was anti war.

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Speaker 1: He said it all the time, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: guess he was running against ultimately Hillary Clinton, so that

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Speaker 1: made sense politically. But he also got elected and re

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Speaker 1: elected on this America first sort of isolationist.

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Speaker 2: A project.

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Speaker 1: And listen, foreign policy is complicated. I accept that I

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Speaker 1: understand that I cover foreign policy. I'm not an isolationist.

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Speaker 1: I'm not America first. I'm admittedly more of a Neocon,

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Speaker 1: but we can also agree mistakes were made in Iraq

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Speaker 1: and Libya and elsewhere. I also think it's pretty clear

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Speaker 1: that most Americans in twenty sixteen and twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: Four were where Trump used to be.

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Speaker 1: They didn't want us getting involved in everyone else's fight,

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Speaker 1: but something exchanged. In late twenty twenty, Trump started talking

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Speaker 1: about invading Canada, Panama, Greenland right otherwise known as allies

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Speaker 1: or allies. It sounded like maybe he was joking. He

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Speaker 1: was not so cut to January twenty twenty five, before

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Speaker 1: Trump was even sworn into office, Remember, he sent a

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Speaker 1: plane to Nook, Greenland, where his son Don Junior and

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Speaker 1: other Mega allies preamed for cameras and stomped around like

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Speaker 1: stereotypical American tourists, like they owned the place because they very.

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Speaker 2: Much wanted to.

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Speaker 1: And upon returning, one of Trump's guys who went to Greenland,

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Speaker 1: an influential Mega podcaster, told his audience that it was

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Speaker 1: absolutely imperative that America acquire Greenland. Why, in the words

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Speaker 1: of this podcaster, it makes America dream again. That were

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Speaker 1: not just this sad low testosterone badea male slouching in

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Speaker 1: our chair, allowing the to run over us. It is

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Speaker 1: the resurrection of masculine American energy. It is the return

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Speaker 1: of manifest destiny. Wow, Okay, what an endorsement of invading

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Speaker 1: a sovereign nation, the idea that America is essentially owed

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Speaker 1: greenland as retained by God. Right, that's manifest destiny, and

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Speaker 1: that acquiring it was going to accomplish nothing short of

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Speaker 1: resurrecting both the American dream and masculine American energy. That's

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Speaker 1: quite the preposterous promise, okay, But it was made in

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Speaker 1: earnest by someone that Trump voters really loved and trusted.

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Speaker 2: That was Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk is who said that.

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Speaker 1: Now, that was a huge shift in a very short

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Speaker 1: period of time from the way Kirk and other mega

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Speaker 1: accolytes had been talking. Kirk had long bought into Trump's

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Speaker 1: America First marketing pitch. He believed in America first when

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Speaker 1: it came to immigration policy, foreign policy, domestic policy, and

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Speaker 1: as Trump touted an end to forever Wars while on

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Speaker 1: the campaign trail, Kirk and others in the manisphere decided

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Speaker 1: America first was Trump's calling hard, It was his rais

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Speaker 1: on destra, his most compelling principle. Gone would be the

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Speaker 1: days of George W. Bush's cowboy new Conservatism. Real men

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Speaker 1: minded their own business. That was the pitch to voters

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Speaker 1: made for years by MAGA influencers, who promised nothing was

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Speaker 1: more morally imperative than America retreating from the world until

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Speaker 1: it wasn't. Kirk was not alone in flipping the script

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Speaker 1: to suddenly defend the thing they'd been told by Trump

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Speaker 1: would never happen.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 1: They were telling us interventioneering, threatening to invade sovereign nations,

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Speaker 1: maybe even getting involved in some foreign wars. And even

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Speaker 1: Trump's tariffs, which were an economic interventionist policy. We're not

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Speaker 1: only okay, they were crucial. They were crucial to making

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Speaker 1: America great again. And and men too. Apparently this is

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Speaker 1: now America first, plundering imperialism, saying out loud, we're keeping

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Speaker 1: the oil, saying out loud, this is ours now we're

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Speaker 1: in charge. Here's Rick Scott this week boasting about taking

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Speaker 1: Cuba too.

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Speaker 2: Do you believe it is the beginning of the end

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Speaker 2: of Cuba?

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Speaker 5: Still and if so one is Cuba liberated.

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Speaker 6: Oh, it's it's gonna be. It's gonna be the end

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Speaker 6: of the das Canal regime. The cash regime is going

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Speaker 6: to happen if we're in the processes that happen.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I was just going.

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Speaker 2: To think like within a week or within weeks or months.

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Speaker 6: I everything takes longer than you think, right, you know, Look,

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Speaker 6: I'd like everything that happened today for the for the

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Speaker 6: kids of Venezuela, for the kids of Cuba. But it's

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Speaker 6: I think it's going to happen, you know. I think

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Speaker 6: it will probably happen, maybe this year, maybe next year.

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Speaker 2: It's going to happen for the kids. Of course, for

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Speaker 2: the kids.

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Speaker 1: Here's Lindsey Graham warning Iran, We're coming for them too.

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Speaker 7: To the people of Iran, we stand with you tonight.

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Speaker 7: We stand for you taking back your country from the

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Speaker 7: Iahtola religious Nazi who kills you and terrorizes the world.

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Speaker 7: We pray for you, We support you.

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Speaker 2: Donald J.

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Speaker 7: Trump is not Barack Obama. He has your back. And

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Speaker 7: to the iatoas you need to understand, if you keep

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Speaker 7: killing your people who demanding a better life, Donald J.

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Speaker 7: Trump is going to kill you.

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Speaker 2: I mean, listen, that's Lindsay. We used to call him.

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Speaker 2: I know, Lindsay, warheads on foreheads. Okay, that's Lindsay.

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Speaker 1: But listen, here's Tolcy Gabbard, a long time critic of

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Speaker 1: American foreign policy, and this is just two months ago.

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Speaker 4: For decades, our foreign policy has been trapped in a

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Speaker 4: counter productive and endless cycle of regime change or nation building.

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Speaker 4: It was a one size fits all approach of toppling regimes,

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Speaker 4: trying to impose our system of governance on others, intervene

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Speaker 4: in conflicts that were barely understood, and walk away with

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Speaker 4: more enemies than allies. The results trillions spent, countless lives lost,

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Speaker 4: and in many cases, a creation of greater security threats,

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Speaker 4: the rise of Islamists terrorist groups like ISIS. President Trump

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Speaker 4: was elected by the American people to put an end

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Speaker 4: to this, and from day one he has showed a

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Speaker 4: very different way to conduct foreign policy.

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Speaker 1: Yes, is this a very different way to conduct foreign policy?

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Speaker 1: In case you expected Tulsi Trump's Director of National Intelligence

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Speaker 1: to criticize doing the exact thing she was criticizing other

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Speaker 1: administrations are doing, guess what instead she's offered kudos. It's

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Speaker 1: quote kudos, kudos for capturing Maduro in a constitutionally questionable

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Speaker 1: operation that ended with Trump insisting we're in charge.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 2: He just did the.

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Speaker 1: Thing she was talking about two months ago that she

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Speaker 1: said we're not doing anymore. Now listen again. I lean

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Speaker 1: more interventionist. I was begging the Obama administration. I mean literally,

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Speaker 1: I'd go to DC monthly with members of Congress and

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Speaker 1: aid groups begging Obama to intervene in Syria. I think

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Speaker 1: there are global theaters in which it is both morally

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Speaker 1: imperative that America bring its strength and also where it's

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Speaker 1: important to American national security to intervene. I'm up for

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Speaker 1: these kinds of conversations, but they should be conversations.

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Speaker 2: They should include Congressional approval.

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Speaker 1: They should they should be laid out for the American

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Speaker 1: public to see and understand and approve of. None of

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Speaker 1: that's happening here. But this isn't about me. I'm not

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Speaker 1: a Trump voter. Millions of Trump voters voted for him

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Speaker 1: because of America first, because he promised not to.

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Speaker 2: Be Bush Senior or Bush Junior or Hillary Clinton. What

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Speaker 2: do they do?

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Speaker 1: MAGA might be defending this because they're afraid of Trump,

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Speaker 1: just as they're defending Trump on all of his broken promises,

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Speaker 1: releasing the Epstein files, making America more affordable, training the swamp,

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Speaker 1: replacing Obamacare. He's done none of these things, and they'll

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Speaker 1: defend that. But on America first, will there be a

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Speaker 1: line in the sand? I'll ask my next guest after

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Speaker 1: the break, welcome back to talking politics.

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Speaker 2: Joining me now is Christine Todd Whitman.

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Speaker 1: She was the fiftieth governor of New Jersey, the first

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Speaker 1: one and to have served in that role. She headed

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Speaker 1: up the EPA under w She's author of the book

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Speaker 1: It's My Party Too, taking back the Republican Party and

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Speaker 1: bringing the country together again, and she co founded the

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Speaker 1: Forward Party, a centrist third party, with Andrew Yang.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, Governor Whitman.

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Speaker 5: It's a pleasure to be with you.

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Speaker 1: So I just want to get your take, big picture

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Speaker 1: on what Trump's doing now in Venezuela, what he's threatening

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Speaker 1: to do in Cuba and Colombia and Mexico and Greenland

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Speaker 1: and Iran. Not like is this good or bad, okay

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Speaker 1: or not okay, legal or illegal? But politically, what do

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Speaker 1: you think it means to Maga voters?

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Speaker 2: Who did not sign up for all of this interventionism.

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Speaker 5: I think a lot of them love it.

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Speaker 8: I think a lot of them are saying, you know,

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Speaker 8: this is us, We're strong, it will take over the world,

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Speaker 8: which is what he's doing, and they don't understand the

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Speaker 8: instability that is causing the huge amount of money that's

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Speaker 8: being spent on this with these military troops around. I mean,

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Speaker 8: it's mind boggling to me.

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Speaker 5: That we've become this kind of a country.

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Speaker 8: And it seems to me that with this president, we're

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Speaker 8: kind of heading to a place where the United States

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Speaker 8: controls the western hemisphere, you give Russia the rest of Europe,

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Speaker 8: and then you give China everything in the Far East.

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Speaker 8: And that's I think the world that he'd like to see.

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Speaker 8: But I do believe that a lot of the mega

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Speaker 8: voters it's more the.

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Speaker 5: Economy that's that's making them mad.

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Speaker 8: It's the Epstein files, because he ran on making sure

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Speaker 8: that that was going to be that was going to

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Speaker 8: be all exposed, everything would be out there. But as

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Speaker 8: far as this takeover of countries, I think they probably

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Speaker 8: love it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I have heard many defend it. It's just very jarring.

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Speaker 1: See I'm a principled person.

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Speaker 5: I was very jarring.

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Speaker 1: I stick to my convictions and the things that I

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Speaker 1: believe in. I didn't just dump because Trump said so.

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Speaker 1: So it's very jarring for me to contemplate going from

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Speaker 1: America first to imperialism.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's where we are.

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Speaker 8: It's interesting that the latest poll that I saw said

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Speaker 8: that it's about forty nine fifty fifty one fifty one

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Speaker 8: percent not agreeing with what's happening, in forty nine percent

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Speaker 8: saying it's great.

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Speaker 2: Is this a problem of history and not?

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Speaker 1: Obviously we have a president who doesn't care about history

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Speaker 1: and people around him who don't care about history. But

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Speaker 1: is it a problem that we've not learned from so

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Speaker 1: many mistakes?

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean.

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Speaker 8: He's making mistakes all over the place with domestic policy

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Speaker 8: and what's happening in the country that it's going to

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Speaker 8: cost us long term.

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Speaker 5: But he didn't care.

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Speaker 8: I mean, that's the real problem, that's not his Those

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Speaker 8: are not the issues about which he cares. He really cares,

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Speaker 8: And I think it was very blatant recently when he

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Speaker 8: called all the utility executives, the oil executives into the

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Speaker 8: White House and basically said Venezuela is yours now, gang,

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Speaker 8: let's just we're going to take AI oil and go

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Speaker 8: to town. It's about making his friends richer, the rich richer.

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Speaker 5: Those are the people he likes.

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Speaker 8: And the thing that's so sad to me is that

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Speaker 8: so many of the maga people that voted for him,

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Speaker 8: or people who are struggling people are on the edge,

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Speaker 8: people who wanted change, and he doesn't care about them.

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Speaker 5: He really does not care about them.

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Speaker 8: I mean, he would no more sit down and have

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Speaker 8: a conversation with somebody that wore overalls overalls and worked

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Speaker 8: had dirty hands because they worked with their hands in

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Speaker 8: the side of the moon. I mean, when he was

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Speaker 8: in Atlantic City and had the casinos, he put a

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Speaker 8: number of electricians plumbers out of business because he refused

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Speaker 8: to pay them everything that he owed them. He had

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Speaker 8: his lawyers call them all in at one point after

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Speaker 8: they'd done all this building for him and put everything together,

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Speaker 8: and said, you know, we'll pay you X pennies on

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Speaker 8: the dollar and you can sue us if you want.

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Speaker 5: You'll win in the end, but you'll be broke by them.

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Speaker 8: And they did go broke because they accepted the money

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Speaker 8: they could get, but it wasn't enough so he doesn't

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Speaker 8: really care about the people who believe he does, which

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Speaker 8: is what's so confusing to me.

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Speaker 2: It is confusing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we've talked about this before on this podcast,

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Speaker 1: that you know, he's doing what Biden did, what cost

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Speaker 1: Biden and Kamala the election, was telling people there is

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Speaker 1: no affordability crisis.

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Speaker 2: The economy is great.

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Speaker 1: Add that, add the bad economic feelings to the voters

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Speaker 1: for whom America First is really important and they're out there.

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Speaker 1: Add that to the voters who are angry about the

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Speaker 1: Epstein files. Add up all these folks. Are Republicans going

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Speaker 1: to be in trouble?

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Speaker 8: Well, I don't think there is a Republican party anymore

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Speaker 8: per se.

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Speaker 5: There's a cult of Trump. Yeah, that there's not a

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Speaker 5: Republican party with a platform that says this is what

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Speaker 5: we are as Republicans, because.

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Speaker 8: It's whatever he says to believe in and whatever day

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Speaker 8: we happen to be in. And so it's for me,

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Speaker 8: it's that's why I am so firmly committed to Forward,

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Speaker 8: because we need the third party. When you have eighty

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Speaker 8: percent of the states being in the hands of one party.

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Speaker 5: You know, you it's just wrong.

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Speaker 8: Nobody I don't care whether it's a publican state or

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Speaker 8: a democratic state. Nobody is well served when you have

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Speaker 8: the executive and the legislative branches in the hands of

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Speaker 8: one party, and when you have seventy percent of elections

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Speaker 8: in any given year uncontested, that the voters don't have

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Speaker 8: a choice. They go into the ballot box and there's

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Speaker 8: only one person to vote for for particular office.

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Speaker 5: That's wrong too.

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Speaker 8: We're not well served with that. We have principal people

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Speaker 8: in office. There are very principal people in office, or

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Speaker 8: they would like to be, but they're scared of what

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Speaker 8: happens if they step outside the lines of what the

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Speaker 8: parties are telling them. On both sides, there's happens on

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Speaker 8: both sides. Yes, I'm telling them what.

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Speaker 5: To do, but it's been worse on the Republican side

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Speaker 5: because it's the threats.

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Speaker 8: I mean, I look the threats on everybody. I frankly

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Speaker 8: think that the attack on Mark Kelly that's going on

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Speaker 8: now is a real test of freedom of speech. It's

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Speaker 8: I mean, they're saying, if you say anything, tell the truth.

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Speaker 8: He was telling the truth. He was saying legally, They

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Speaker 8: if you pledge, if you raise your right hand and

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Speaker 8: swear to uphold the Constitution. You don't have to obey

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Speaker 8: illegal orders as a member.

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Speaker 5: Of the military. I mean, that's the law, right And yet.

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Speaker 8: Because he said that and they don't like it, they're

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Speaker 8: going after him. And that's a message that was reverberating, reverberating.

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Speaker 5: Across not just the military but everywhere. You better not

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Speaker 5: step out of line.

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Speaker 8: You better not say anything that this guy doesn't like,

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Speaker 8: or they're going to come after you.

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Speaker 1: That the defense toart like, that's scary. I'm sure Mark

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Speaker 1: Kelly can handle it, but like that is scary.

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Speaker 5: Shit, it really is. It's very scary. Shit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you brought up forward because I think

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Speaker 1: this is related. People on both sides of the aisle

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Speaker 1: feel bamboozled by politicians, and certainly Trump, as a twice

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Speaker 1: elected president, is a politician now and he's proving to

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Speaker 1: be just like the rest of them, a liar, self dealer, corrupt,

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Speaker 1: say anything to get elected. Do you think twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: eight will be the year for a third party candidate?

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Speaker 8: Well, I you know, I think so, But we're trying forward.

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Speaker 8: As you know, the major parties don't want to have

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Speaker 8: anything to do with anything that's going.

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Speaker 5: To disrupt their powerhole.

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Speaker 8: Right, So, while we're on the ballot now in ten

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Speaker 8: states to one degree or another, we want to be

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Speaker 8: on all of them.

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Speaker 5: But to get there by twenty twenty eight is going

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Speaker 5: to be a challenge.

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Speaker 8: But that's where after we may or may not have

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Speaker 8: a third party candidate. But there are a lot of

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Speaker 8: different organizations working in this space that are protective of

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Speaker 8: our democracy. None of them are doing the kind of

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Speaker 8: party building that we're doing at the state and local level.

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Speaker 8: Right They all are working on these efforts, and who knows,

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Speaker 8: there may be a third party candidate, but it's a

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Speaker 8: lot of effort to get on the ballot as a

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Speaker 8: third party.

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Speaker 5: Candidate and takes a lot of money.

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Speaker 8: We're the ones who are building it gradually at the

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Speaker 8: state and local level. So I mean, we'd hope to

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Speaker 8: be we'd like to be on the ballot in every

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Speaker 8: state by twenty twenty eight, and if it means that

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Speaker 8: we then have a candidate for presidency and vice presidency,

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Speaker 8: that'd be great. But right now we're looking at what's

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Speaker 8: going to happen in the Senate and the House and

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Speaker 8: at the state level.

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Speaker 5: Because people have.

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Speaker 8: To remember that the decisions that most directly affect your

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Speaker 8: life are made at the state and local rate. And

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Speaker 8: when you look at things like redistricting, which is such

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Speaker 8: a huge problem, that's a state decision. And you look

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Speaker 8: at the courts, many of those are state appointed, not

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Speaker 8: even elected, but they're elected at the state level. There

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Speaker 8: are so many need, so many important decisions being made

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Speaker 8: at on the local level that that's where you start

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Speaker 8: to build, and you build a farm team for the future,

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Speaker 8: the ones who are then going to go from say

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Speaker 8: mayor a council person in a municipality, to the legislature

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Speaker 8: to Congress.

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Speaker 5: And you don't have to have everybody.

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Speaker 8: What you need is a full from if I firmly

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Speaker 8: believe that if we'd had three senators in the US

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Speaker 8: Senate and the last Congress and.

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Speaker 5: Say seven afford Us in the House, you never would

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Speaker 5: have had a shutdown.

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Speaker 8: You wouldn't have had people losing their livelihood and not

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Speaker 8: knowing whether they could afford to continue in their jobs

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Speaker 8: such as they were if they knew if they were

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Speaker 8: going to have them when they went back.

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Speaker 5: But because of the money they.

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Speaker 8: Lost in the interim and bills, unfortunately, those bills have

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Speaker 8: to be paid. Whether you're getting paid or not, your

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Speaker 8: creditors want their money, right.

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Speaker 1: The Democratic and Republican brands are so bad. But both

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Speaker 1: brands are are terrible and and and you know, I

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Speaker 1: think the Republican brand is Trump. Democrats are facing a

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Speaker 1: similar crisis of confidence, like what is our brand?

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Speaker 2: Are we? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: How do you think a third party should in addition

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Speaker 1: to the groundwork you're doing, how do you think a

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Speaker 1: third party should exploit that brand? Those branding problems for

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Speaker 1: both of those parties right now.

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Speaker 8: Well, what people want is they want to elect someone

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Speaker 8: who is going to represent them and not a party.

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Speaker 5: And that's why the Forward Party.

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Speaker 8: Is different from any other party in that we're not setting.

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Speaker 5: Up with a set of.

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Speaker 8: Positions that you have to take, you know, pro or

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Speaker 8: anti guns, choice whatever we're saying. Look, this should be

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Speaker 8: about your constituents and the people that you represent and

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Speaker 8: what they want. And so people have to in order

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Speaker 8: to be supported by the Forward Party or to become

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Speaker 8: a member of the Forward Party, you sign a pledge

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Speaker 8: it says you're going.

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Speaker 5: To upholl the rule of law.

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Speaker 8: Respect the constitution, work with anyone to solve problems, create

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Speaker 8: a safe space to discuss the controversial issues and work

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Speaker 8: to ensure that everyone who has a legal right to

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Speaker 8: vote gets to vote, and base those on decency, democracy,

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Speaker 8: and diversity.

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Speaker 5: It's embarrassing to say.

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Speaker 8: That you want somebody to sign a pledge saying that

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Speaker 8: they will hold the rule of law, because that kind

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Speaker 8: of should be automatic when you go into office, since

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Speaker 8: you take a pledge to that effect anyway and the Constitution.

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Speaker 8: But that's what it is, and we're putting to the

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Speaker 8: kind of people there who want to just do what's right,

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Speaker 8: and they need to have an organization behind it. You

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Speaker 8: can't do that without some support. I mean, you cannot

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Speaker 8: run for office. If you don't have support, it's not

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Speaker 8: going to happen. And you need to have volunteers, You

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Speaker 8: need to have somebody who does fundraising, You need to

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Speaker 8: have somebody who understands media. I mean, those are things

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Speaker 8: that where we should provide the support for people who

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Speaker 8: meet our criteria.

442
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: I think, what, Yeah, it's it's interesting because I covered

443
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 1: the New York City mayoral election last year. I had

444
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:19,120
Speaker 1: a nightly sure, yeah, so, I mean it was actually pretty.

445
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: Fascinating to cover it. And what I noticed was that

446
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 2: Zorn Mum Donny One without.

447
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 1: The support of the Democratic Party completely. I mean he

448
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 1: didn't even get key endorsements. They really didn't help him

449
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: at all. But the Democratic Socialists did. They provided volunteer,

450
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: the groundwork, the framework, you know, the get up the vote.

451
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: So that's sort of an example of how a non

452
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: major party can effectively get a relatively.

453
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 2: Unknown I mean, nobody knew who he.

454
00:24:55,320 --> 00:25:00,160
Speaker 1: Was until like April last last year, elected to a giant,

455
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:01,120
Speaker 1: giant office.

456
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 2: There is a roadmap here, No.

457
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 8: There absolutely is that. It's because people are well. First

458
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 8: of all, I think there's buyer's remorse on they're starting

459
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 8: to play. There are people who wanted change, but not

460
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 8: this way. I mean, when they see ice shooting people,

461
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 8: women and cars, it's just wrong, breaking up families. That's

462
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 8: not what anyone really wanted. There are few who think good.

463
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 5: They're probably bad people, but.

464
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 8: When you find out that, no, they're just average citizens

465
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 8: and most of many of them, unfortunately.

466
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 5: Are just that. They're citizens leading residents here.

467
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 8: But so there's some buyers remorse coming in and they

468
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 8: wanted somebody, I mean say what too well about Zaram Lungdavid.

469
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 5: You may not agree with his policies, but at least

470
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 5: he set out what he wanted.

471
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 8: To do when he was very clear in his policies,

472
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 8: very yeah, and so that made people feel good saying, Okay,

473
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 8: now I know what i'm voting for. Now I know

474
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 8: what he's going to do. I may not agree with

475
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 8: all of it, but there's a positive campaign. I think

476
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 8: that's the difference from the others.

477
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 5: He always looked happy.

478
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 8: I mean, he wasn't scowling, he didn't look like he

479
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 8: was mad and angry and the world.

480
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 5: Was coming to an end. Yeah, And that gave people

481
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 5: a good feeling.

482
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 8: And so they were willing to overlook some of the

483
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 8: concerns they might have had about specific policy.

484
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 5: Issues and physicians that he took.

485
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 8: They were more comfortable with saying, Okay, I'll give this

486
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 8: guy a try, because he seems like the real deal.

487
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, for sure.

488
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: His authenticity went a very, very, very long way. Because

489
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 1: I've said this before, New York is liberal. It's not

490
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 1: Portland liberal, Okay, I mean, New York is still a

491
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: place that elects Republicans for mayor and governor occasionally. So

492
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: he was saying some things that could have been you know,

493
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: scary and disqualifying, but the way he introduced himself and

494
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 1: his authenticity, and you thought, well, he believes in this.

495
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: It really did. It really did a lot of the

496
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: work for him.

497
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 8: That's a key word that you here is believes in it. Yeah, yeah,

498
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 8: I mean he meant it, believe in it.

499
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 5: People can see through that.

500
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 8: I mean, they are all these political phrases you can

501
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 8: throw out, and you know, if you don't believe it,

502
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 8: if it's really not you, it's not going to fly

503
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 8: the way it should.

504
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 5: And he believed.

505
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: Yes, Okay, I like to end with we call it

506
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: an exit poll. It's three questions of varying degrees of seriousness.

507
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 1: The first question, Governor Whitman, is what is your favorite

508
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: movie about politics?

509
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 5: Favorite movie about politics? Haven't? Oh, I have to I

510
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 5: have to think hard. I can't come up with one.

511
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 5: I come up with a TV sharing The West Wing.

512
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 2: You're give me your TV series The West Way.

513
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 8: It was not what's real, but it's what everybody hoped

514
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 8: for in a presidency.

515
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: Frankly, I think one hundred percent it was.

516
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: I've said this before too, mister Smith is already in Washington.

517
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 9: That was.

518
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 5: I mean, that would be my favorite movie I think

519
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 5: on politics. Mister Smith goes to Washington.

520
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 8: But really what came to mind first was the West Wing,

521
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 8: just because it's what everybody wanted.

522
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 5: It's not it's accurate, but.

523
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 2: Yes, but you know, it's funny.

524
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: You mentioned that we've had several West Wing actors on

525
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: this podcast, and people are rewatching it, and I think

526
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: it's really telling as to why they are rewatching it,

527
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: and young kids are watching it for the first time

528
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: because they want that feeling again and they can't find

529
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: it in reality.

530
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 4: No.

531
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, since you feel firmly ensconced in the center,

532
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: now name a Republican and a Democrat that you admire.

533
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 5: Oh gosh, you mean today?

534
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: Yeah? Today?

535
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 5: Let me think you know, I think she's still a Republican.

536
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 8: I didn't agree with her when she was in most

537
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 8: of her positions and when she was in Congress, but

538
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 8: when she stood up and I'm talking about Liz Cheney, Yeah,

539
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 8: when she stood up after January sixth, I have to

540
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 8: are a whole host of credit because she said democracy

541
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 8: is more important than anything, and she knew exactly what

542
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 8: she was doing, what it was going to cost her.

543
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 8: So I have to say I admire that. I admire

544
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 8: that a lot.

545
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 5: On the Democratic side.

546
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 8: You know Andrew frankly, because one of the things he's

547
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 8: done is is he said, I'm sorry, Democratic Party and

548
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 8: if he wants, he would he wants to run for president.

549
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 5: I know that. I mean he did already tried once

550
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 5: and then he tried from there.

551
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 8: So he has a political future ahead of him, or

552
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 8: he had, but.

553
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 5: He sure doesn't have it now with the Democratic Party.

554
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 5: And he knows that, and he knows that that takes.

555
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 5: That takes some courage and some gumption to do that.

556
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: It does.

557
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: We've also had Andrew Yang on the podcast. Okay, uh, finally,

558
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: how do we save our democracy?

559
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 8: I think we we build it back with people who

560
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 8: believe in it and are going to support it. And

561
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 8: that's why I am so focused on the Forward Party.

562
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 8: It's it's not fast, it's not sexy because it's not

563
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 8: all playing at the residential level right away.

564
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,479
Speaker 5: But that's not It has to happen, and that's how

565
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 5: it's happened in our past, and it takes time.

566
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 8: Reading about Margaret Chase Smith and what she did with

567
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 8: Joseph McCarthy, it took three years after that speech that

568
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 8: she made in the House as a freshman woman, only

569
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 8: one serving in the United States Senate at the time

570
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 8: from Maine.

571
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 5: She was from any state.

572
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 8: I mean she was the only woman, but she was

573
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 8: from Maine, and she had no seniority anywhere, knew what

574
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 8: it was going to cost her in the House, and

575
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 8: yet she really stripped away the veil behind which McCarthy

576
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 8: was hiding, without ever mentioning his name, just appealing to

577
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 8: the better agels of the nature of the other members.

578
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 5: And it took three years, but it happened. So it's

579
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 5: not These things don't happen overnight. It does take time.

580
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 8: But if everybody sits back and says, oh darn, then

581
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 8: it's never going to happen and this is all awful, Well,

582
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 8: then it won't have to get an.

583
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Christian Todd, women, thanks so much for joining me today.

584
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 5: It's a pleasure.

585
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: Before I let you guys go, I had a quick

586
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: chat today with Larry Beinhart. He's the author of the

587
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three novel American Hero, which became the movie

588
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: Wag the Dog. I want you to listen to our conversation.

589
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,719
Speaker 1: It's really interesting. And I asked him where he got

590
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: the inspiration to write a book about a fake war and.

591
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: He said, well, it was while he was watching the

592
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 2: Gulf War.

593
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 9: It was like watching a made for TV movie. Every

594
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 9: network had its logos, its theme music, it's dramatic introductions.

595
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 9: Later on, I think it was ABC made a documentary

596
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 9: about the whole war, and right at the beginning it

597
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 9: says some of the facts may have been altered to

598
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 9: make a better story. But this was supposedly an actual

599
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 9: news documentary from a news station, not from a Hollywood movie,

600
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 9: where at the beginnings based.

601
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 2: On real events. Yeah.

602
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 9: Right, So I said, well, wait a minute, what if

603
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 9: it really was a made for TV movie. What if

604
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 9: they hired a Steven Spielberg type character and said, you know,

605
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 9: we need a war that America will love on TV.

606
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 9: What will you do? And the novel spends a lot

607
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 9: of time the guy developing what's a war that America

608
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 9: will love on TV? And mostly he comes up with

609
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 9: essentially World War two two the video okay, and you know,

610
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 9: you get somebody to play Hitler and he gets to

611
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 9: invade one small country kind of like Poland, but kuwait,

612
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 9: and then the Allies come and they get rid of

613
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 9: him and have a triumph. And I have to say

614
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 9: at the time, I watched it. It was very cynical

615
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 9: about it. Now looking backward, it's a difference between Go

616
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 9: War one and Go four two. I'm saying, well, you know,

617
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 9: George hw Bush was really good at it. He made

618
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 9: a good war. He knew when, he knew when to stop,

619
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 9: and his reasons were stopping were right. To go any

620
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 9: further would.

621
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 8: Have been illegal.

622
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 9: He kept it legal. Great Actually deposing Saddam Hussein was

623
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 9: going to re destabilize the entire Middle East, and they

624
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 9: knew it. They discussed it, and it wasn't until they

625
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 9: did it the second time, and it really screwed it

626
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 9: up that you could get to see that right. And

627
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 9: the other thing that George hw Bush did that was

628
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 9: quite brilliant. He had the war paid for and this

629
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 9: is in a novel. It's part of the proof of

630
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 9: why this must have been a holly would work because

631
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 9: the way they paid for it was they pre solved

632
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 9: the foreign rights. They really did right. They got Japan

633
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 9: and Germany and our parts of the Arab country say hey, guys,

634
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 9: we'll have this war. We'll get rid of this guy,

635
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 9: but you have to pay for it, and they said okay.

636
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 9: So but anyway, the idea of using a foreign war

637
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 9: to distract from domestic political problems is very feasible. It's

638
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 9: been done very often because there's a natural human reaction

639
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 9: of rally around the flag.

640
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right.

641
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 9: As with so many things about Trump, this is different

642
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 9: and it's weird and it's casual, and it's lazy, and

643
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 9: you can't quite figure out why he's doing it and

644
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 9: how he's doing it. There was no build up to this.

645
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 9: Not spend the time establishing that Maduro was the new Hitler,

646
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 9: right right. They didn't spend five minutes claiming that we're

647
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 9: threatened by him.

648
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 2: Yep.

649
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 9: The things that they attacked him for were nonsensical. I mean,

650
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 9: there's a certain amount of blame to be laid on

651
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 9: the media, but not saying, hey, wait a minute, this

652
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 9: is nonsensical. Yeah, flaming Venezuela, if a fentanyl.

653
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: Well, as my friend Jonah Goldberg just wrote yesterday, he said,

654
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: it's really impressive actually that none of us could see

655
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: this coming because they didn't lead us up to it.

656
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: And that's not impressive in a good way. But usually

657
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 1: you can tell by some pieces on the chessboard being

658
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: moved around, or the way maybe defense is talking something's coming.

659
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: No one could tell that this was going to be

660
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: the move.

661
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,919
Speaker 9: Well, usually if you're using war as a diversion, yep

662
00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 9: from domestic political problems, then they want to right, we

663
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 9: didn't see it coming because it made no shite.

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00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 2: No previews, no trailers. Let me ask you back at

665
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 2: when when you wrote American Hero. I just want to

666
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 2: know were you when it was published?

667
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: Were you worried that the administration would come for you

668
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: would say something.

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00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 9: Had they done so, would have helped booksales.

670
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 2: Actually you're helping.

671
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 9: I was disappointed. Nobody ever complained. I mean it shent

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00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 9: the copy to Colon Powell.

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00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 2: That's so good, right, and nothing you know, no, I

674
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 2: think I.

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00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 9: Got a cop a thank you note. You know meant

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00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 9: you hadn't read it.

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00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 2: That's so good.

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00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: All right, guys, that's it for us and talking politics.

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00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: Two great, great guests today and.

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00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 2: Uh, we'll see you next week.

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00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: Off the Cuff is a production of iHeart Podcasts as

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00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: part of the Reason Choice Network.

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00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 2: If you want more, check out the other Reason.

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00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: Choice podcasts Spolitics with Jamel Hill and Native Land Pod.

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00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: For Off the Cup, I am your host se cup.

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00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: Editing and sound design by Derek clements. Our executive producers

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00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: are me Se Cup, Lauren Hanson, and Lindsay Hoffman. Rate

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00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: and review wherever you get your podcasts, Follow or subscribe

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00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: for new episodes every Wednesday,