WEBVTT - Cyclical State of Grief 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.640 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to Okay f Daily with 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:08.600 Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Long Island Bunker. Folks, 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:17.000 there are some days where rage collapse into grief, and 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:26.800 grief collapses into despair and the conversation that I have 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:32.960 to offer you all next with our friend Jonathan Metzel. 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:40.239 It's one of those days where I am struggling and 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:45.400 realize that I am having an emotional reaction in real time, 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:49.080 which you will see to the conversation that Jonathan and 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:54.920 I have with regard to the latest mass shooting in 0:00:55.040 --> 0:01:01.680 Colorado Springs at Club Q. I try really hard to 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:10.600 provide all of you with information, community conversations that make 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:16.200 you feel less alone, less crazy, and something that gives 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.479 you a yeah, okay, this is what we can do 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:23.240 or yes, I feel this way to moment as you're 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:28.800 listening to the show today, I'm going to be honest, 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:33.679 I am really just sad. I am really sad and 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:41.560 tired of covering mass shootings, particularly ones that are aimed 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:48.120 at communities that I'm a part of. I wish that 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:53.640 this country was better. I wish that our politicians, all 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:59.000 of them, gave a shit about saving actual lives, not 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:05.520 just pretending. I wish that people who stoke violence, like 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:10.040 Lauren Bobert and Donald Trump and Marjorie Taylor Green and 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:16.240 Paul Gossar and the entirety of the Republican Party were 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.440 held accountable for the crimes that they are committing, not 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:26.320 only against their constituents, but against this country. I wish 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:30.160 that for every single tweet and statement that went out 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:35.680 with pictures of politicians posing with weapons of mass destruction, 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:42.519 that they were fined, that they were tried as accomplices 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:48.160 or accessories after the fact. I wish that there were 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:57.519 penalties for their criminal speech and behavior that gives cover 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:07.480 and to people whose only desire is to cause pain 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:18.640 and devastation and fear. There is no safer space or 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:25.800 haven for queer people than queer spaces. For many people, 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:31.679 particularly that are living inside of red states and redder counties, 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:41.000 that one queer bar center gathering place is the only 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:45.640 time when they can feel safe inside of their own skin, 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:53.120 in their own bodies, because whether it's going into a 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:56.960 grocery store, going into a place of worship, or a 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:00.680 school as a queer person, and for folks who are 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:05.840 visibly queer, meaning that there can be no assumption based 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.280 on how people are looking at you. You walk around 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:13.680 with a target on your back because of people like 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:18.479 Donald Trump, Lauren Bobert, Marjorie Taylor Green, Mike Pence, and 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:22.400 others that use religion as the shield for their bigotry 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:27.560 and hate, who want to cape for those who want 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:31.279 the ability to discriminate and to humanize, and then want 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:34.120 to turn around and offer their thoughts and fucking prayers 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.360 as if it does a damn thing or it fucking matters. 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.000 I wish that those people knew what it was like 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:47.000 to be the only one in a room in space 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.240 and feel in fear of how other people are going 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:54.440 to react to you, because I feel that if everyone 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:59.839 experienced that level of fear, then maybe those that have 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.960 the power to do something about it fucking would But 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.640 what am I? I'm assuming that most human beings have empathy, 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:08.919 and what I realize about the Republican Party is that 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:15.720 they are void of that. When I posted on Twitter, 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:18.599 which by the way, as you all know, has become 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.560 increasingly a sewer, and I don't know how much longer 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:24.920 I will choose to be on the platform. I don't 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.040 want to seed ground to the far right, but I 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:31.440 also don't want to expose myself to a level of 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:36.279 toxicity and verbal abuse in order to prove a point 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:46.200 and continue to make a vapid egomaniac richer. Nonetheless, when 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:51.400 I posted about the shooting at Club Q, I had 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:55.480 some asshole decide to comment and say, oh, well, you know, 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:57.920 I like how you'll only come out on one side 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.000 of gun violence, and I'm just like, the fuck up 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:04.040 do you think that this is some type of fucking 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:12.800 conversation like competition. People should feel safe. I don't give 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:16.320 a fuck who you pray to, who you sleep with, 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:21.520 how you identify. I don't care. You should be able 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:24.400 to be in your home, leave your home, leave your community, 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:27.640 ghost shopping, go get a drink, go to a movie theater, 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:31.000 go to a synagogue, go to a temple, go to 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:35.120 a mosque. You should be able to feel safe. That 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:43.719 should be the marking of an industrialized society, of a democracy. 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.560 That it isn't just the freedom to wield and take 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:53.600 photos with your fucking cosplay bullshit aar fifteens, but that 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:57.640 the rest of us should be able to feel safe 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:02.719 in our own skin and the fact that we don't 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.239 the fact that in this society we would rather teach 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:11.080 children active shooter drills than do anything about actual active shooters. 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:13.600 The fact that we want to put together policies on 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.720 red flag laws that in the last two fucking shootings 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:24.240 have done dick to prevent them. We're not a civilized country. 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.520 I don't even know what that means when people want 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:32.880 to talk about civilized or you know, developed. If anything, 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:40.360 America is fucking developing, it is an underdeveloped society because 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:42.480 it is not one that is marked with empathy. It 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:44.360 is not one that is marked with love. It is 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:49.480 not one that is marked with safety, not even for 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:51.920 those that are carrying around the ar fifteens and the 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.960 fucking bazookas to go to Starbucks, because that's how fucking 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:57.800 small they are in their real lives that they need 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:03.680 external validation. We refuse to have real conversations about where 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.400 this shit is coming from. So let's all pretend and 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.440 pause for the thoughts and fucking prayers that don't do shit. 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.720 What I want I want a class action lawsuit from 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:16.280 the people of these United States that are sick of 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.240 the fucking NRA, that are sick of the politicians that 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:22.880 are bolstered up and get rich off of their ignorance 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:26.480 to the largest scope and problem because the mouths around 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:32.800 their table are fed, overfed at that because apparently the 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.360 only way that this is going to stop is that 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.800 for those that are creating the policies to consistently be 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.680 harmed and live in fear at the same level that 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.200 the rest of us live, or to somehow we fucking 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:48.120 held accountable and one of those motherfuckers to go in 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.680 jail because their tweets and their statements that they're putting 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:54.480 out can be directly linked to the violence that is 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:58.400 escalating in this country. Because until those people are held responsible, 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.440 none of this is going to change. It is just 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:05.000 going to get worse. And I'm tired of trying to 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:10.760 appeal to people's emotions when I realize that they are emotionless. 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:18.080 They just don't give a fuck. So I want to 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:20.559 go after the gun manufacturers. I want to go after 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.079 the lobby sets. I want to go after the politicians. 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:25.720 I want to pull up their social media, their voices, 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:28.319 and you tell me that they don't matter because he 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:30.960 said the same fucking people that are going into libraries 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:37.120 and schools to ban books because they believe that those 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:41.840 books and the acceptance and inclusion of people from marginalized 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:45.560 communities is somehow going to shift people's thinking. Yeah, it will. 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:49.000 It'll make them more inclusive, it'll make them more empathetic, 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.600 it'll make them more loving. And God forbid we have that, 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:54.400 because then you won't be able to capitalize on fucking fear. 0:09:56.160 --> 0:10:01.320 I'm sick to death of this country. I'm sick to 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:04.800 death of inaction. I'm sick to death of the thoughts 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:09.160 and prayers. And you will hear in the conversation coming 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:13.480 up next with our friend doctor Jonathan Metzel, that our 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.440 disassociation does not mean that we don't care. It is 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:18.880 the place that we're moving to in order to have 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:23.880 self preservation, because no one can exist in this cyclical 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:32.280 state of grief on a regular basis. I don't know 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:38.000 what else to say today, friends, except to take care 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:42.080 of yourselves, take care of each other as you choose 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:47.280 to gather with chosen family or blood family and friends, 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:54.360 recognize that these moments are really fleeting. They are really fleeting, 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:57.360 and there are too many people that are going to 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:00.360 have too many empty seats around their table that could 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:06.760 have been avoided if we gave a ship folks. You 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:08.960 know that whenever I have the opportunity to sit down 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:12.319 with our friend, our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:17.120 I am always greatly appreciative. And Jonathan, you know, it 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:21.480 seems that every week that we talk, it is on 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:25.280 the heels of tragedy. I don't know what else to 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:32.200 say about it. Folks were coming and recording this just 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:38.360 days after the mass shooting at Club Q in Colorado 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:43.480 that took the lives of five of the patrons at 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:47.880 Club Q and Colorado Springs injuring I think roughly nineteen 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:53.679 that we know of at this point. And Jonathan, you know, 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.719 I just before we get into any of the specifics, 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:59.959 I just want to get your reactions. You know, I'm assuming, 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:06.520 like like me, your phone was buzzing the morning following 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:10.160 the shooting with alerts from different outlets. So what was 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:15.720 you What were your initial reactions? I mean, first of all, 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:21.200 it's impossible to experience this outside the context of the 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:25.680 anti queer, anti trans hate that is, you know, always 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:29.000 been brewing in our country, but is now reached a 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:33.720 truly fatal level. And so the context is important because 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.839 I understand it has flashbacks for a lot of people 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:41.480 to the Pulse shooting in Colorado, But this is a 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:45.839 much more dangerous time, even though the fatality numbers were 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:51.520 considerably less than the Pulse shooting. But in the context 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.520 of what is really kind of acceptable hate right now, 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.920 I feel like the implications, the kind of broader implications 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:03.959 of this are are just incredible, right I mean, there 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:06.880 are a lot of people with guns, There are a 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.360 lot of very unstable people out there, and they're in 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:11.720 a way being given a kind of carte blanche in 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:13.680 a way. I mean, we don't know anything about the 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:18.280 story here, and I'm sure it'll be a unique story 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:21.040 the way it always is, and they'll also be remnants 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:27.319 of other stories of histories of violence and misogyny and 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:31.960 guns and stuff. But the context right now is just breathtaking, 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:35.920 because even in the Pulse shooting, if you look back 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:38.720 at what happened, then it wasn't just the outpouring of 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:40.960 support we see, which is what we see now, but 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:45.720 also a kind of mobilization of the system that should 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:50.000 work to protect people, and particularly people who are most 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.520 at risk by the system. And now this is in 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:58.440 the context of a very unstable political environment that basically 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:05.000 gains and monetizes anti queer, anti trans hat and can 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.760 I mean the Colorado springs honestly has been an incredible 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:12.080 response as far as I can tell, But it's in 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:15.920 the context of a county that is a so called 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:19.960 Second Amendment sanctuary zone where you can't enforce any gun 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:23.560 laws whatsoever, and so all that support is in the 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:28.120 context of a framework that really literally doesn't enable anybody 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:33.680 to do anything about it. You know, I have to 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:38.280 say that while the numbers to your point about the 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:42.680 pulse shooting that happened in Florida that claimed forty nine lives, 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:47.200 that when we think about it, just in the context 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:51.400 of numbers, we think to ourselves, well, you know, it 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:59.520 wasn't as bad. And I was speaking earlier, and the 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.400 person I was speaking to said, the headline came across, 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:08.200 and I didn't even allow myself to be sad. I 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:12.440 was just in full on rage and anger because the 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:18.240 very idea that five people being shot isn't as bad 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:22.680 as forty nine or seventeen or nineteen children or eighteen 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:30.480 children is just like a grappling that emotionally, spiritually we 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:34.800 shouldn't have to do right that like that that you know, 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:38.720 part and parceling out tragedy shouldn't be a part of 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:43.120 our just normal existence in this country, and yet it is. 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:45.800 And so Jonathan, I just want to I want to 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:50.640 talk about that kind of the gaps that we're having 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.720 in our emotional sentiments as we deal with one mass 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:58.000 shooting after the next. What I realized as I was 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:02.440 getting ready to share, you know, social media, my thoughts, 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:06.360 this only comes six months after the Buffalo shooting. It 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:09.560 only comes, you know, a handful of months after Uvaldi. 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.480 In between that was a shooting that happened at the 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:15.840 parade that you know, that picked off people on the 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:20.760 Fourth of July holiday. Like, it's just the inundation and 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:25.080 then our inability to actually grieve. Can you just speak 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:30.520 to speak to that, because I think that it's it's important, 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.840 and I think that we also beat ourselves up about 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.280 the fact that, like there's just so much grief that 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.440 we're not even really touching that emotion in the way 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.720 that we used to. Post traumatic stress disorder is a 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.920 framework that people often use to talk about these kind 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:50.360 of things, and I feel like it's useful and it's 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:53.880 also not useful. The idea of post traumatic stress disorder 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:57.560 is that you have a repeated response to a threat 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:01.000 of death or hearing news about about it, or being 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.840 close to it. But the response in PTSD is a 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:10.200 is a hyper vigilance, exaggerated startle response. You're like on edge. 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.919 And really what we're seeing is post traumatic stress dissociation 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:18.159 in a way that people are so numb that in 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:20.639 a way, when it's coming at you so often, it's 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:24.639 like exactly like who's whoever sent you that message said, 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:27.760 you feel less in a way, And so we're having 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:31.679 a kind of dissociation to the horror and trauma of 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:35.720 all of this in a way that is not completely 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:37.840 linked to what people do in war zones, but it 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:41.719 is reminiscent of it in a way that in a way, 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:45.000 if you've felt if you felt this all the time, 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:49.120 you really couldn't function. And so in that sense, it's 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:53.200 not PTSD because the trauma is ongoing and we're associating, 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.720 and I think that's part of what's happening. But then 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:03.880 the other issue is just you know, the initial PTSD 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:09.280 studies were done in military theaters, right that people who 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:14.200 were flying airplanes in Vietnam, if they flew five hours 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:17.720 of sorties where they were facing anti aircraft fire and 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:19.240 thought they were going to die. They had a five 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:23.240 percent chance of getting PTSD. They flew fifty hours, they 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:27.280 had a fifty percent chance of getting PTSD, and here 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.199 and so basically the symptoms correlated with the amount of 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:33.360 time you thought your life was at risk and then 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:35.399 you flew back to the base and you could feel safe, 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.080 and then you know that was like there's a beginning 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:43.280 and end, and here people across America feel safe never 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:46.320 They don't feel safe in a bus coming back from 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:50.080 a field trip with their Virginia football team. They don't 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.679 feel safe going to a parade in Chicago. They have 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.360 to look over their shoulder in what should be the 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.200 safest space, a queer bar where people are just there 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:04.680 to celebrate and feel camaraderie and feel support across the community. 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.840 So these really safe spaces, I mean, that's of course 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:11.800 what gives mass shootings their horror and their power, their 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:16.560 acts of you know, not not just violence, but their 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.360 acts of a particular kind of violence that really rupture 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:23.199 the safety of that kind of the safest spaces are 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:26.280 the ones where you're the most vulnerable. But really that's 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:28.680 the question, where can you feel safe because you never 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:33.199 get to fly home to your base. I mean that 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:38.639 just description and that articulation, like tears just came to 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:43.719 my eyes, Jonathan, because I'm recognizing that that is really true, 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:47.960 that what you're saying with regard to post traumatic stresses, 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:53.440 is this a reaction that doesn't necessarily match the trauma 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:58.320 in itself and the fact that we are consistently traumatized 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:04.359 and consistently living on edge. That disassociation isn't us not 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:08.040 wanting to care. It's the fact that we can't have 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:12.720 a NonStop grief, right, And so I wondered them. My 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:17.200 question to you is that if if we can't have 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.640 NonStop grief and we have to disassociate as a way 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:24.680 of self preservation, which is what it sounds like, then 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:29.919 how do we I don't know, I guess the question 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:36.320 is how do we move forward with the same type 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:41.280 of organization and strategy to end gun violence when it 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:47.240 just gets worse and gets more persistent, Like I, you know, 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:49.439 I keep seeing all these headlines you and I have 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:52.359 talked about on the show, like you know, children and 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:56.440 their levels of anxiety and prescriptions that are being given 0:20:56.480 --> 0:21:02.840 out and because of these compacted tragedy. We've talked about this, honestly, 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:06.960 and I just don't even know if we are disassociating 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.359 to the point of just being able to make it through, 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:14.919 what does that mean about our ability to actually muster 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:19.600 the strength to stop this. It's interesting if you do 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:22.280 what I do, right' I study gun policy, and enough 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:26.359 these shootings, people will interview me and say, what about 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:29.840 red flag laws? What about background checks? And I give 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:32.080 the answer because I think they're important in there what 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:34.680 we have. But it's so clear that there's no policy 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:39.120 that's gonna stop this from happening right now. I mean, 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.520 we have more guns than people by far. We have 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:46.160 more mass shootings than days in the calendar year by 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:49.760 a considerable amount, and so it's not like there's one policy. 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:54.200 And in this shooting in particular, shows that because something 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:57.719 like what's called a red flag law, people aren't enforcing it. 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:01.480 They're not the law doesn't enforce it. People are reluctant 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:05.800 to call authorities on their relatives. And so this is 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:09.720 a particular sign to me that the policy interventions that 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:12.280 we have, which were made out of compromise trying to 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:16.679 create a middle ground, just don't work, and so the 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:19.280 issue is why don't they work? Should we just enforce 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:22.520 those policies? And I guess I just think of the 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:25.719 places that have faced this kind of trauma, nothing on 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:31.720 our scale, but this kind of trauma Australia, Scotland, etc. Etc. 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:34.760 And really what those are marked by is not any 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:37.960 particular policy. It's people on all sides coming to the 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:42.200 table to negotiate and find some kind of middle ground 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:46.080 where there's some compromise. And we just don't have that process. 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:50.239 And so as much as we shout frustration about the 0:22:50.280 --> 0:22:53.720 fact that in this case, Colorado has a red flag law, 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:59.479 it wasn't followed for whatever reason, but it's not going 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:02.439 to be what at least let me just jump in 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:04.760 for a second, because at least what I've heard right, 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:08.639 And again we're still receiving details and trying to piece 0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:11.120 together the why. But I think you know, the why 0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:16.080 is to me obvious. But um is that in both 0:23:17.400 --> 0:23:22.879 the shooting in Virginia with the football team and both 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:28.680 this Colorado spring shooting, there were flags right there was 0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:36.600 In the Virginia at the university, the shooter was flagged 0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:40.320 for having talked about guns and said that they owned 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:44.439 a gun, and but because no violent action had been taken, 0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:50.600 the officers on the university's campus said there was nothing 0:23:50.600 --> 0:23:54.879 that we could do. Similarly, in Colorado Springs, it was 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:59.000 like there was a flag there were potentially a connection 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:02.479 with bomb that were made, you know, in previous years. 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:06.000 And it's so it's like, I guess what is the 0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:10.000 purpose If red flags are literally to send up a 0:24:10.040 --> 0:24:14.040 flare this person is potentially dangerous, but then we're not 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:18.360 actually going to take action until the violence occurs. Then 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:23.840 what's the point of there being a red flag? You know? 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:27.600 The Biden gun reform efforts are based on many things, 0:24:27.640 --> 0:24:31.159 but one is really bolstering red flag laws. I share 0:24:31.200 --> 0:24:36.760 your concern and your critique about them very deeply, right because, 0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:39.399 I mean, let's just be honest. You don't get to 0:24:39.440 --> 0:24:45.400 become a mass murderer overnight. There are concerning symptoms in 0:24:45.720 --> 0:24:48.320 everybody who gets to that stage. But the problem is 0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:52.439 in part a numbers game, right that for everybody who 0:24:52.640 --> 0:24:56.920 shows those symptoms and then becomes a mass shooter, you'll 0:24:56.920 --> 0:24:59.200 have a million people who have the exact same personality 0:24:59.200 --> 0:25:03.600 profile who never do anything, And so there's no predictive 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:06.760 power for that, and then the other part is a 0:25:06.800 --> 0:25:11.200 lot of people have had these same symptoms for years, 0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:13.520 and so it's like, what's the day where they're going 0:25:13.560 --> 0:25:18.959 to snap. It's psychiatrists and judges and police don't have 0:25:19.000 --> 0:25:22.399 any idea, and so restricting somebody's guns for fourteen days 0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:25.960 or even six months, which never happens, is not going 0:25:26.000 --> 0:25:28.080 to change that. A lot of the issues here are 0:25:28.200 --> 0:25:33.000 long standing characterological personality issues, and so in that regard, 0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:36.119 it's just not effective in a way. And then you 0:25:36.480 --> 0:25:40.280 on top of that, put that places like El Paso 0:25:40.520 --> 0:25:44.320 County where this shooting happened, they basically have a stance 0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:47.840 against enforcing gun laws that's on the books, and so 0:25:49.240 --> 0:25:54.040 it's just the numbers make this impossible. And even if 0:25:54.040 --> 0:25:56.520 you look at how many red flag laws have been 0:25:57.200 --> 0:26:00.760 you know, it's like twelve over eight, you know, over 0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:04.400 the years in this county because they don't enforce them. 0:26:04.440 --> 0:26:06.639 And so it's just like the minute you start, I mean, 0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:10.400 any any one of these factors would have been devastating 0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:13.800 for this case, but when you add them all up, 0:26:13.880 --> 0:26:15.800 it's just the system is not going to work to 0:26:15.880 --> 0:26:19.600 prevent this kind of violence. And that's kind of where 0:26:19.600 --> 0:26:21.840 we're at right that that's kind of where we're at. 0:26:24.160 --> 0:26:27.080 So we're just gonna live with this like it's I mean, 0:26:27.160 --> 0:26:29.520 like we are. We're just I mean, this is a 0:26:29.560 --> 0:26:33.960 part of what it means to live in America. Is 0:26:34.040 --> 0:26:37.040 that any time that you leave your home, or even 0:26:37.080 --> 0:26:40.320 if you're in your home, you know, the probability of 0:26:40.359 --> 0:26:43.760 you being shot to death is pretty fucking high. Look, 0:26:43.840 --> 0:26:48.520 I I just I don't I'm at a I honestly, 0:26:49.520 --> 0:26:52.960 this doesn't usually happened to me interviewing you. I'm at 0:26:53.000 --> 0:26:56.240 a loss. I just I'm at a loss to figure 0:26:56.280 --> 0:27:02.800 out like the path forward if I don't know what 0:27:02.920 --> 0:27:05.520 I don't know what it is, Jonathan, I could answer 0:27:05.520 --> 0:27:08.119 that too, is I mean mass shootings obviously there are 0:27:08.160 --> 0:27:11.600 a reflection of our broken political system. Because of functioning 0:27:11.680 --> 0:27:15.359 society will come together across the table to say, man, 0:27:15.480 --> 0:27:19.680 our citizens are dying, and what can we do? We 0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:23.080 are dying, and what can we do to address this 0:27:23.160 --> 0:27:25.840 so that we can be more safe. A communal framework 0:27:27.400 --> 0:27:29.639 where people are saying, Okay, here are my rights, but 0:27:29.720 --> 0:27:32.240 here is your need for safety. Let's work it out. 0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:37.119 And there are so many other examples of societies that 0:27:37.160 --> 0:27:41.640 are not in wartime figuring that out. I don't think 0:27:41.680 --> 0:27:45.119 that's where we're at, because maybe we are gearing towards 0:27:45.240 --> 0:27:48.119 some more conflict, but in the meantime, our political system 0:27:48.200 --> 0:27:50.880 does not allow for that kind of negotiation. So mass 0:27:50.960 --> 0:27:53.959 shootings are symptoms a red flag law is not going 0:27:54.000 --> 0:27:57.200 to fix the structural problems of our country right now. 0:27:57.200 --> 0:28:00.440 And I think that's that's really kind you know, where 0:28:00.440 --> 0:28:02.480 we're at. I mean, again, there are so many models 0:28:02.520 --> 0:28:06.399 of countries that have gotten to this point and you know, 0:28:06.800 --> 0:28:09.119 taken another turn in a different direction. So it's not 0:28:09.160 --> 0:28:11.160 like there are no models for it, but it's just 0:28:11.200 --> 0:28:14.040 that part of that issue is that. And then I 0:28:14.080 --> 0:28:20.520