WEBVTT - Reincarnation Blues 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.040 Welcome to Stuff to Flow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:14.400 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to blow your Mind. 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.479 My name is Robert Lamb and J Douglas. Recently we 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.560 did an episode titled The Problem of Immortality where we 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:24.479 talk a little bit about humanity's fear of death and 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:28.880 how a quest for some form of immortality permeates just 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:33.000 about everything we do as a species and as a civilization. 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:36.480 So it seems like a really good idea to cover 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:39.800 reincarnation in its own episode. And so that's what we're 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:44.159 talking about today. Reincarnation, which here in the Western world 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:46.960 is kind of a slightly different animal than it is 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:49.800 in the East, but it's but it's still an idea 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:53.920 that you find pretty in worldviews around the world and 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.680 uh and has a certain amount of uh, well, let's 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:01.240 just say truthiness to it. To borrow word from Stephen Colbert. 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:05.680 A lot of people find something in reincarnation that jives 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:08.680 with their worldview. Okay, I was thinking about this, and 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:11.880 I was thinking that reincarnation, at least on a symbolic level, 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.880 it couldn't help but work itself into the human psyche. 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:19.200 Given that nature performs a sort of reincarnation at the 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:23.800 molecular level every single day, right and at the most 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:26.960 basic level, we are informed by nature in the physical 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:31.080 world around us. And I was thinking about Berne Heinrich. 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.080 He is the author from Life Everlasting, the Animal Way 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:36.640 of Death. He says, we come from life, and we 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:39.560 are the conduit into other life. We come from and 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:44.600 return to incomparably amazing plants and animals, even while we 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:48.040 are alive, are wastes are recycled directly into beetles, grass 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.040 and trees, which are further recycled into beef, butterflies, and 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:53.960 onto flycatchers, finches and hawks, and back into grass and 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:57.360 on into deer, cows, goats, and us. And he even 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:00.160 goes on to say that you could have a decaying 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:04.280 elephant or an arctic poppies molecules which might have been 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:07.560 released into the air the previous day, but they all 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.560 came from plants and animals that lived millions of years ago. 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:12.480 And he says all of life is linked through a 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:16.760 physical exchange on the cellular level. So that is a 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:21.640 that's a deep ancient trope being played out in the 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:24.520 drama of nature before our very eyes. So it makes 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:28.239 sense that we would as humans look to that cyclical 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:33.440 nature and and somehow involve it in our somewhat linear 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:36.760 timelines that we have set out as humans. Yeah. In fact, 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.399 that's one of the reasons that the Plato, the famous philosopher, 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.520 looked around in the natural world and and and thought 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:46.040 that the reincarnation jibe with what he was saying he saw. 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:50.000 He saw cycles and opposites in nature as being one 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:54.760 of the the leading arguments for reincarnation. Like you say, 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:57.160 you see these cycles all around you. And then if 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:00.520 we were to try and imagine things, uh, the the 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:04.920 unseen world, we can do attribute similar shapes and similar 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:09.200 cycles to those energies as well. Yeah, and reincarnation And 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.880 just to factrack a little bit too, immortality, it really 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:18.200 does fulfill that um immortality narrative that is so important 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:21.799 for humans. It does three things. Helps to manage that 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:24.959 terror we sometimes feel when we realize that our lives 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.640 are ephemeral and fleeting. The second thing is it provides 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.720 a blueprint for acceptable behavior, which we'll talk about more 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.240 while on Earth. And three in extends that assurance of 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:38.280 immortality that you live on in some way. Now, reincarnation 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:39.840 goes by other names as well. You might know it 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:44.800 as a transmigration of the soul or metal psychosis. Uh. 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:47.320 But the idea again is truly ancient. You look back 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:51.360 to Africa, the birthplace of humanity, you'll find reincartercarnation traditions 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.160 such as that of the West African vote in religion, 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.720 and given the migrations of early Man that the next 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:01.080 great homeland of the humanity is of course the Indian subcontinent. 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.240 And that's where we see the most famous model of 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:08.880 recurrent reincarnation emerge and come to dominate Eastern cultures. Uh So, 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.480 really you have to start with Hinduism. And just to 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.280 give a quick refresher on Hinduism, it's the oldest of 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.960 the dominant world religions and arguably the most difficult to summarize. Okay, 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:22.240 It's it's roots stretch back a good five thousand years 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.120 through human history, and along the way you find all 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:30.720 of these. It's varied texts, poetic epics, different sets, different diversions. 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.800 God's Goddess is religious rituals, and all of it comes 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:37.039 into this. Uh, this, this form that is really difficult 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:39.720 to nail down. Hinduism is kind of a just a 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:44.159 chasm that that that dives down through human history, a 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.159 lot of ideas wrapped up in it. Yeah, at the 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:49.640 at the very basic level, though, we're talking about something 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:51.880 called some sorrow, which is a chain of birth and 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:56.240 death linked by reincarnation, and controlling some sorrow is the 0:04:56.320 --> 0:05:00.000 law of karma. So Hindus believe that all individuals accumulate 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.719 karma over a given course of a lifetime, and then 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.560 good actions create good karma and evil actions create negative karma. 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:10.480 And by the way, we have a wonderful article by 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:13.960 Sarah Dowdy called How Reincarnation Works and it goes a 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.040 bit more into this. Yeah, and the wheel of Samsar 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.840 is often used as a visual reminder of how of 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:23.200 how this system works in Hinduism and Buddhism. We have 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.359 a cool interactive version of that in the article about 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:30.160 Tibetan sky Burial on the website. But in essence, it's 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:32.320 a big wheel, like a big pizza. It's gripped by 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:36.120 a big monster uh generally called Yama, and Yama is 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:40.120 the embodiment of impermanence and death, this big demon and 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:43.560 he's he's holding this giant pizza chart that has a 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:47.280 has these different states of being that a soul may 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:51.200 travel through as it's reincarnated, and those include a human realm, 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:53.640 the realm that we are in now. It includes an 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:58.160 animal realm. It includes lower realms where you'll see hungry ghosts, 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:00.919 where you'll see raging demons as well. It's higher realms 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:03.960 where you'll see demi gods and gods. It kind of 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:06.880 reminds me of a board game like dice may land 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:11.840 on you know, an angry god or or a creature. Yeah, 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.440 it's kind of shoots and ladders, imagine it's really it is. 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:18.280 It is shoots and ladders as a model of existence, 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.559 except it's a game of shoots and ladders that never ends, 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.040 all right, And even when a game of shoots and 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.440 ladders ends, it's a pretty tedious game to play. And 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:29.320 that's sort of the whole point in Hinduism and Buddhism 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:32.279 is that the game is tiresome. The game is just 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:36.000 gonna be ups and downs just forever unless you stop 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:40.000 playing it. And that's ultimately what what the goal of 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:43.279 of Hinduism and Buddhism is. To free yourself from that, 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:46.039 from that game altogether, to free yourself from the cycle, 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:49.120 uh the endless cycle of death. And rebirth and reincarnation 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:53.280 into various forms, and that creates that blueprint of behavior 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:55.280 for your time here on earth that we've talked about, 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:59.479 which is so important to the immortality narrative. Yeah, we 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.360 come back to this string of karma, this idea that 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:05.440 that no matter what form you're in, there is something 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:09.120 there that that is immortal. There is this uh, this string, 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:12.560 this thread that continues throughout it and you can just 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:14.400 you know, think of it as the human soul, as 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:18.120 some sort of soul energy. That's the general idea here. 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.000 And it's uh, it's it's the piece on the board 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:23.680 of shoots and ladders that's going up, that's going down, 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:27.239 and eventually you want to remove from the board altogether. Now, 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:30.840 in shoots and ladders, of course, it's just luck if 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:34.040 you're going up or down. But in reincarnation, that's driven 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.480 by karma. Uh, there's the there is, of course a 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:41.640 moral aspect to all of this. Um. How you act 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.200 in this life depends on where you'll be in the 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:47.600 next and the life after that and the life after that. Yeah, 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:52.240 And this interpretation of reincarnation really varies widely depending on 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.840 the philosophy or the religion In fact. In Native American culture, 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:59.560 it is a feature. Reincarnation is in it. It makes 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.080 sense here if you ask me, because you really see 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.440 that reincarnation is essential to the belief in the connectedness, 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:09.400 the continuity, in the interdependence of all life. In some 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:13.560 Native American cultures and for the Northern Arthur past candn 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:17.280 a thought the soul. I think it's really interested interesting. 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.760 The soul is regarded as a dual entity. The soul 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:23.000 is believed to remain in the after world and can 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.920 be prayed to, and at the same time it exists 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:30.520 in the human form of the reincarnate reincarnated individual also 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:35.319 known as those made again. So you've got one foot 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:39.040 here and the present and one foot in the past. Yes, 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.560 reincarnation often sort of bleeds over into these other ideas 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:45.600 of say, for instance, the ancestor. Worship or or at 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:49.720 least holding up the ancestor is an extremely important part 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:51.840 of not only the past but the present, and in 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:54.280 that you see some of these models of reincarnation are 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:58.200 more of a family model of reincarnation. People are reincarnated 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:01.480 within the bloodline, and of course that makes a lot 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:03.800 of sense because we know how genetics work. We know 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.360 how how genes are passed on from one generation to 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.720 the next. So in a sense, there is something in 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:16.080 your grandfather that's living on in this bloodline. Now, on 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.520 the same note, you also find uh mythic reincarnation, the 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:22.280 idea that gods are reborn as kings and the other 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:25.360 important you know, figures. And in this we see a 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:28.320 lot of cyclical time and archetypes. We've talked to a 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:30.920 lot before about how when you look at this older 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:34.280 model of time, before the linear time um, everything was 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:38.640 a cycle and independent individual moments and even individuals were 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:43.320 only important insofar as how they uh recaptured some sort 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:46.079 of archetype from the past. Because in some ways these 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:49.000 are delusions, right, So if you claim that a pharaoh 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.839 is you are reincarnate of Pharaoh, then you are trying 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:57.280 to assume that Pharaoh's power. And I'm thinking about Sodom Hussein, 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:01.320 who claimed to have been the reincarnation of a Babylonian king. 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.800 And we see this, you know, not just in present day, 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.440 but throughout history, people claiming to have the sort of 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:13.600 powers of these um very important ancestors or historical figures 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.960 throughout time. Yeah, and you always hear about the king 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:19.040 that somebody was in their past life. People tend not 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:21.960 to focus on the uh, the you know, the the 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:25.280 street bum or the or or the or some sort 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:27.480 of a war criminal or anything of that nature, or 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:30.120 does the common goatherd. But you know, that makes sense 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:34.200 if you want to fasten your yourself to some you know, 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:37.240 imagine figure in the past, you want to do something inspiring, 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:41.560 I guess. But and that kind of falls into another 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.920 version of reincarnation. You find sort of, especially in the West, 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.240 a kind of casual, feel good reincarnation where we just 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.640 kind of just a quick path on the back to say, hey, 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:53.439 maybe when I die, I'm gonna be reborn as an eagle. 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:57.440 Maybe you don't die, maybe you're reincarnated as as this 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.000 plant or this person. And it's just there's not even 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:03.560 like any kind of real religion or world view or 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:06.000 structure to the idea is just sort of a comforting 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.280 possible notion, a whimsical reincarnation. Yeah, but nothing could be 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.480 further from the idea of karmic reincarnation that we've discussed 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:16.320 so far. You know that, because this is serious business. 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:19.559 This is about for the for the practitioner of Buddhism, 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:23.120 or Hinduism. This is about where I'm going to land 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.280 in the next life, avoiding some sort of hellish reincarnation 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.160 and also eventually freeing myself from the cycle altogether. So 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.320 it's not just a you know, a pad on the back. 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:35.880 It's it's considered serious business. That's right. It's very rich 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:40.200 in rituals and steps are to be taken. It's not 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:42.600 just as you say, the casual association with if I 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:44.600 do this one good day, perhaps I will not be 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:46.280 a cockroach in the next life. Yeah, I mean, the 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.120 Tibetan Book of the Dead is all about the steps 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:52.960 that one can take as this traveling soul, as the psychonaut, 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.480 and the steps that your that the your survivors can 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.840 take to help guide you through that gray area into 0:11:59.880 --> 0:12:03.040 the next life. It's it's it's a dangerous voyage for 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:05.480 the practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism. And then there's one more 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.200 version of reincarnation, one more take on it. That's uh, 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:09.720 that that has a lot of Lusser to it, and 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:13.120 that's kind of a metaphoric interpretation. Okay, this is the 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:16.360 idea that that the idea that Buddhist reincarnation is not 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:20.000 a literal model of rebirth through various forums and a 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:23.040 karmic cycle, but rather a model for our moment to 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:27.079 moment reincarnation. And and I tend to really like this interpretation. 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:29.400 It's the idea that instead of oh, if you leave 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:33.040 a lead a peaceful human life, then maybe you'll have 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.280 more peace in the next moment. Or if you have 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:40.120 a sort of an out of controlled, lavish demi god life, uh, 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:42.280 then your next life might see you cast down into 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:44.760 the hells. But rather, what am I How do I 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:47.000 feel right now? Am I peaceful? Now? Well? Then that 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.800 means in the next moment I may be peaceful as 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.559 well if I am sort of if I'm on one 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:54.959 end of the pendulum now, if I'm you know, angry, 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.160 then maybe I'll swing back to something a little more 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.000 reasonable in the next It's a about that moment to 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:03.720 moment change in our our psyche and and in the 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.840 way we're experiencing the world around us. I like that. 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:08.800 I like that sense that if you're tending your own 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:12.000 garden at that very moment, then you're also converging on 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:16.160 the all points of time past, present, in future, and 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:19.520 that that tending of that garden now reaps its rewards 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:23.959 metaphorically throughout this ripple of time. Yeah, Alan Watts put 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.880 it really well. He said that, Okay, look at a flame. 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:30.880 A flame is a process and not a thing. He said, said, 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.200 every human being is also a process, just as a 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:38.000 flame is a conversion of wax into gas. Because who 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:41.520 are you right the at any given moment, You're a 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.960 different person than than who you were five minutes ago, 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.360 a month ago, a year ago. We're perpetually changing where 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:52.200 there We're just this this vast storm of ideas and 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:55.800 memories and and uh and interpretations of the world around us, 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:57.720 and so that that changes all the time. And we 0:13:57.720 --> 0:13:59.280 talked a little bit about that in the Problem of 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.240 Immortality and as well as in our episodes on Hell, 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.679 like who who's judged when it comes to heaven? In hell? 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:07.760 The person you are now the person you were when 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.719 you die. It really gets problematic when you look at it. 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:12.800 It gets problematic even when you look at it in 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:17.440 terms of of crime and punishment here in the real world, 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:19.760 like how what happens when you judge somebody for a 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:22.600 crime they committed uh ten years ago? Is this the 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.440 same person that committed that crime? I was thinking about 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:27.440 this the other day. I thought, you know, so much 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:31.520 of life is about rutinization, about habits and about how 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:34.000 you know, you do wake up and you do you 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:35.960 feel maybe a little bit different from the person you 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:38.920 were the day before. And the things that keep us 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:42.440 the person that we are, or those uh cages of 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:45.320 habit that we create around us, those cues that, oh, yeah, 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:47.400 my name is Julie, I live in this house. These 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.880 are the things that surround me. These are the associations 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:53.440 that I have in this world. If all of those 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:58.040 cues fell away, would you be that same person? So 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:02.320 so again, metaphoric interpretation of reincarnation is very much the 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.960 idea that the person I am now is reincarnating into 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.640 the person I'm going to be a second from now, 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:10.960 and a second from from there, and and on and 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.440 on through the course of your life. Let's take a 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:15.680 quick break, and when we get back, where we're going 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:19.920 to talk about a little bit more about ancestral reincarnation 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:33.200 is something called the persistence of personality. Reppy, all right, 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:36.000 we're back, and indeed this is gonna be the segment 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.440 of the episode where we get into a little more 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:43.720 of the skeptical views of reincarnation and indeed what happens 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:47.720 when science gets involved and science is involved. In fact, 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.800 in two thou twelve, a five million dollar grant was 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:54.200 awarded to you see, a University of California Riverside to 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:59.880 study immortality, including reincarnation and resurrection by the John Templeton Foundation. 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.320 So that's really interesting and just a side note one 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:05.880 of the things that they want to try to figure 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.880 out our near death experiences because culturally, say, in the 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:12.960 United States, it's very different from Japan because in the 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.400 United States we have the little trope of you see 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.760 a light at the end of the tunnel, whereas in 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:22.040 Japan it's that people are seen tending a garden, huh, 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.960 which plays into this idea of well, how much of 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:29.720 it is just this mental construct that we play into. 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:33.320 Is there any sort of way that we can get 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.440 to it scientifically and figure out if there's a basis 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.920 to reincarnation. Yeah, because that that brings to mind episodes 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:45.040 we've done about alien encounters and abduction experiences and ghosts, 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.840 ghost encounters and any kind of paranormal experience one might 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:52.040 have the the at the core of it there might 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:55.120 be something similar, but a lot of it seems to 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:58.840 be based on the cultural script you're bringing into the experience. 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:03.440 So you're experiencing sleep paralysis of very real condition. But then, 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:05.879 what kind of myth do you lay on top of, 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:07.359 what kind of religion do you lay on top of, 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.640 what kind of uh, you know, cultural sci fi reference 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:13.640 do you lay on top of it? To interpret the 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:17.200 the this other worldly experience. Right, you're you're sleeping, you're 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:19.640 in a dream, you're paralyzed, and you're starting to wake 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.359 and your your brain is confused about what state to 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:25.719 be in. Maybe there's some sort of green light emanating 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:29.400 from the hallway, you know, that becomes interpreted into, as 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.040 you say, the cultural script that's put before us. Yeah, 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:35.560 and so that's very much a part of the scientific 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:39.000 analysis of reincarnation as well. Now, when we talk about 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:45.280 studying reincarnation, obviously there's very little that science can do 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:50.600 to study reincarnation. Reincarnation largely exists as an idea outside 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:55.760 of the observable universe, outside of of science. It's uh, 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.840 it's like trying to scientifically prove the existence of God. 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:02.080 It can't be done. It's not a provable thing. It's 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:05.960 a matter of faith and worldview and all that. Uh So, 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:08.480 it's the same thing with reincarnation. The studies that we 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:12.280 look at tend to be based in interviews with children 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:16.560 with their parents, rigorous note taking, and then trying to 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:20.720 to compare different experiences in different accounts of of not 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:25.040 only this life but the life before. Yeah. Dr Ian Stevenson, 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:28.280 an academic psychiatrist, led the study of reincarnation in the 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.080 US until his death in two thousand and seven, and 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:34.240 he founded the Division of Personality Studies under the University 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:38.840 of Virginia's Department of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences. He conducted 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:43.760 thousands of interviews. As you say, he took rigorous notes, um, 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:46.359 and his studies focused really on young children, usually between 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.880 the ages of two and five, who had inexplicable phobias 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:53.879 or detailed memories about a previous life as reported by 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:58.560 the parent. Yeah, and these cases generally, generally they broke 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.439 down about like this, like, here's the kid again, some 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:04.399 sort of weird phobia. They're afraid of busses or something, 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:07.359 you know, or they're suddenly talking about Ron all the time. Well, 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.200 who's wrong. There's no Ron in the immediate family. Why 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.560 is Ron such a character in this three year old's life. 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:16.600 And then you start to you start comparing notes, and 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.479 you find out, oh, well, there's a family in the 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:23.359 next town and uh and and this uh, this woman 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:26.600 died and her husband's name was Ron. Or here's this uh, 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.000 this case just like a few streets over where somebody 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:32.840 was hit by a car. And so maybe that explains 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:35.879 the phobia. It's the idea that the soul has moved 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.720 on from one body to another, and in doing so, 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.560 has brought over at least some aspect of that previous 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.919 personality enough to carry over a severe phobia or a 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:49.800 severe or a or a significant attachment to another person. 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:52.879 You know, we're doing our next podcast episode on the 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:56.320 illusion of continuity. And I just realized the overlap here, 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:00.480 because if you have all of these details, and we 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:04.960 already know that our brains are pattern recognition machines, it 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:07.600 can't help but sees on these details and say, oh, yeah, 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:10.600 four or five kilometers away, there was a girl who 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:13.960 died in a rice patty when she was eight years old, 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:17.800 And perhaps it's that girl's soul reincarnated into this other 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:22.520 little girl who's having these very serious phobias of water 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:28.080 and drowning. Yeah, Stevenson studied about different cases over the 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:31.520 course about four decades. He published several books and articles 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:34.280 about it. Really, it's a it's an intimidating amount of 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.320 information that he put together and and it's and it's 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:39.240 all all of it is coming down to individual cases 0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:40.879 where they went out and analyzed that, they talked to 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:45.600 the parents, they talked to the child, and uh. At 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.560 the end of it, though, you ultimately have this this huge, 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:53.760 massive information that science largely rejects because again it's it's 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:56.520 just based in it's it's more like a police case 0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:59.359 really than anything. It's more about about the just asking 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.600 people when pairing accounts of the situation, rather than than 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:07.119 any kind of actual scientific investigation. And we'll get to 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:09.679 why that process has flawed in a moment. But I 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.240 wanted to mention someone named Jim Techer. He is a 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:16.159 professor of psychiatry and neurobehavioral sciences at the University of 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:19.560 Virginia who really picked up where Stevenson left off and 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:22.920 he and I believe this was an interview with PDS. 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:27.520 He he said this about reincarnation. He said, some leading 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:29.880 scientists in the past, like Max Plank, who's the father 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.520 quantum theory, said that he viewed consciousness as fundamental and 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:36.600 that matter was derived from it. So in that case, 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:40.200 it would mean that consciousness would not necessarily be dependent 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:43.640 on a physical brain in order to survive, and could 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:47.119 continue after the physical brain and after the body dies. 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:50.680 In these cases it seems, at least on the face 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:54.000 of it, that a consciousness has then become attached to 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:56.560 a new brain and has shown up as past life memories. 0:21:56.920 --> 0:21:59.160 And then he goes on to say, I think these 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:02.440 cases can tr ribute to the body of evidence that consciousness, 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:05.480 at least in some circumstances, can survive the death of 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:08.480 the body, that life after death isn't necessarily just a 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:11.239 fantasy or something to be considered on faith, but can 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:14.880 be approached in an analytical way, and the idea can 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:17.840 be judged on its own merits. That's pretty that's a 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:20.479 heavy statement. That is that it goes right into the 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:24.000 mind body problem that we discussed in some past episodes. 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:26.680 The idea that we have this physical brain and then 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:29.840 we have this mind, and when we compare the two, 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:33.120 they don't seem to match up, uh, you know, one 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:36.240 to one. So we come into to all these various theories, 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:40.520 these philosophical models for what the relationship is. Is the 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:43.760