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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Flow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and J Douglas. Recently we

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Speaker 1: did an episode titled The Problem of Immortality where we

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about humanity's fear of death and

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Speaker 1: how a quest for some form of immortality permeates just

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Speaker 1: about everything we do as a species and as a civilization.

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Speaker 1: So it seems like a really good idea to cover

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Speaker 1: reincarnation in its own episode. And so that's what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about today. Reincarnation, which here in the Western world

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Speaker 1: is kind of a slightly different animal than it is

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Speaker 1: in the East, but it's but it's still an idea

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Speaker 1: that you find pretty in worldviews around the world and

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Speaker 1: uh and has a certain amount of uh, well, let's

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Speaker 1: just say truthiness to it. To borrow word from Stephen Colbert.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people find something in reincarnation that jives

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Speaker 1: with their worldview. Okay, I was thinking about this, and

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Speaker 1: I was thinking that reincarnation, at least on a symbolic level,

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Speaker 1: it couldn't help but work itself into the human psyche.

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Speaker 1: Given that nature performs a sort of reincarnation at the

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Speaker 1: molecular level every single day, right and at the most

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Speaker 1: basic level, we are informed by nature in the physical

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Speaker 1: world around us. And I was thinking about Berne Heinrich.

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Speaker 1: He is the author from Life Everlasting, the Animal Way

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Speaker 1: of Death. He says, we come from life, and we

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Speaker 1: are the conduit into other life. We come from and

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Speaker 1: return to incomparably amazing plants and animals, even while we

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Speaker 1: are alive, are wastes are recycled directly into beetles, grass

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Speaker 1: and trees, which are further recycled into beef, butterflies, and

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Speaker 1: onto flycatchers, finches and hawks, and back into grass and

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Speaker 1: on into deer, cows, goats, and us. And he even

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Speaker 1: goes on to say that you could have a decaying

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Speaker 1: elephant or an arctic poppies molecules which might have been

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Speaker 1: released into the air the previous day, but they all

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Speaker 1: came from plants and animals that lived millions of years ago.

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Speaker 1: And he says all of life is linked through a

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Speaker 1: physical exchange on the cellular level. So that is a

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Speaker 1: that's a deep ancient trope being played out in the

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Speaker 1: drama of nature before our very eyes. So it makes

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Speaker 1: sense that we would as humans look to that cyclical

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Speaker 1: nature and and somehow involve it in our somewhat linear

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Speaker 1: timelines that we have set out as humans. Yeah. In fact,

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Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that the Plato, the famous philosopher,

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Speaker 1: looked around in the natural world and and and thought

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Speaker 1: that the reincarnation jibe with what he was saying he saw.

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Speaker 1: He saw cycles and opposites in nature as being one

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Speaker 1: of the the leading arguments for reincarnation. Like you say,

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Speaker 1: you see these cycles all around you. And then if

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Speaker 1: we were to try and imagine things, uh, the the

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Speaker 1: unseen world, we can do attribute similar shapes and similar

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Speaker 1: cycles to those energies as well. Yeah, and reincarnation And

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Speaker 1: just to factrack a little bit too, immortality, it really

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Speaker 1: does fulfill that um immortality narrative that is so important

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Speaker 1: for humans. It does three things. Helps to manage that

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Speaker 1: terror we sometimes feel when we realize that our lives

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Speaker 1: are ephemeral and fleeting. The second thing is it provides

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Speaker 1: a blueprint for acceptable behavior, which we'll talk about more

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Speaker 1: while on Earth. And three in extends that assurance of

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Speaker 1: immortality that you live on in some way. Now, reincarnation

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Speaker 1: goes by other names as well. You might know it

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Speaker 1: as a transmigration of the soul or metal psychosis. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But the idea again is truly ancient. You look back

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Speaker 1: to Africa, the birthplace of humanity, you'll find reincartercarnation traditions

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Speaker 1: such as that of the West African vote in religion,

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Speaker 1: and given the migrations of early Man that the next

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Speaker 1: great homeland of the humanity is of course the Indian subcontinent.

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Speaker 1: And that's where we see the most famous model of

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Speaker 1: recurrent reincarnation emerge and come to dominate Eastern cultures. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: really you have to start with Hinduism. And just to

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Speaker 1: give a quick refresher on Hinduism, it's the oldest of

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Speaker 1: the dominant world religions and arguably the most difficult to summarize. Okay,

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Speaker 1: It's it's roots stretch back a good five thousand years

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Speaker 1: through human history, and along the way you find all

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Speaker 1: of these. It's varied texts, poetic epics, different sets, different diversions.

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Speaker 1: God's Goddess is religious rituals, and all of it comes

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Speaker 1: into this. Uh, this, this form that is really difficult

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Speaker 1: to nail down. Hinduism is kind of a just a

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Speaker 1: chasm that that that dives down through human history, a

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Speaker 1: lot of ideas wrapped up in it. Yeah, at the

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Speaker 1: at the very basic level, though, we're talking about something

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Speaker 1: called some sorrow, which is a chain of birth and

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Speaker 1: death linked by reincarnation, and controlling some sorrow is the

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Speaker 1: law of karma. So Hindus believe that all individuals accumulate

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Speaker 1: karma over a given course of a lifetime, and then

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Speaker 1: good actions create good karma and evil actions create negative karma.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, we have a wonderful article by

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Speaker 1: Sarah Dowdy called How Reincarnation Works and it goes a

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Speaker 1: bit more into this. Yeah, and the wheel of Samsar

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Speaker 1: is often used as a visual reminder of how of

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Speaker 1: how this system works in Hinduism and Buddhism. We have

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Speaker 1: a cool interactive version of that in the article about

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Speaker 1: Tibetan sky Burial on the website. But in essence, it's

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Speaker 1: a big wheel, like a big pizza. It's gripped by

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Speaker 1: a big monster uh generally called Yama, and Yama is

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Speaker 1: the embodiment of impermanence and death, this big demon and

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Speaker 1: he's he's holding this giant pizza chart that has a

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Speaker 1: has these different states of being that a soul may

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Speaker 1: travel through as it's reincarnated, and those include a human realm,

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Speaker 1: the realm that we are in now. It includes an

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Speaker 1: animal realm. It includes lower realms where you'll see hungry ghosts,

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Speaker 1: where you'll see raging demons as well. It's higher realms

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Speaker 1: where you'll see demi gods and gods. It kind of

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Speaker 1: reminds me of a board game like dice may land

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Speaker 1: on you know, an angry god or or a creature. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of shoots and ladders, imagine it's really it is.

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Speaker 1: It is shoots and ladders as a model of existence,

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Speaker 1: except it's a game of shoots and ladders that never ends,

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Speaker 1: all right, And even when a game of shoots and

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Speaker 1: ladders ends, it's a pretty tedious game to play. And

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Speaker 1: that's sort of the whole point in Hinduism and Buddhism

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Speaker 1: is that the game is tiresome. The game is just

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Speaker 1: gonna be ups and downs just forever unless you stop

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Speaker 1: playing it. And that's ultimately what what the goal of

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Speaker 1: of Hinduism and Buddhism is. To free yourself from that,

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Speaker 1: from that game altogether, to free yourself from the cycle,

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Speaker 1: uh the endless cycle of death. And rebirth and reincarnation

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Speaker 1: into various forms, and that creates that blueprint of behavior

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Speaker 1: for your time here on earth that we've talked about,

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Speaker 1: which is so important to the immortality narrative. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: come back to this string of karma, this idea that

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Speaker 1: that no matter what form you're in, there is something

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Speaker 1: there that that is immortal. There is this uh, this string,

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Speaker 1: this thread that continues throughout it and you can just

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Speaker 1: you know, think of it as the human soul, as

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Speaker 1: some sort of soul energy. That's the general idea here.

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Speaker 1: And it's uh, it's it's the piece on the board

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Speaker 1: of shoots and ladders that's going up, that's going down,

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Speaker 1: and eventually you want to remove from the board altogether. Now,

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Speaker 1: in shoots and ladders, of course, it's just luck if

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Speaker 1: you're going up or down. But in reincarnation, that's driven

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Speaker 1: by karma. Uh, there's the there is, of course a

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Speaker 1: moral aspect to all of this. Um. How you act

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Speaker 1: in this life depends on where you'll be in the

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Speaker 1: next and the life after that and the life after that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And this interpretation of reincarnation really varies widely depending on

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Speaker 1: the philosophy or the religion In fact. In Native American culture,

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Speaker 1: it is a feature. Reincarnation is in it. It makes

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Speaker 1: sense here if you ask me, because you really see

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Speaker 1: that reincarnation is essential to the belief in the connectedness,

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Speaker 1: the continuity, in the interdependence of all life. In some

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Speaker 1: Native American cultures and for the Northern Arthur past candn

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Speaker 1: a thought the soul. I think it's really interested interesting.

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Speaker 1: The soul is regarded as a dual entity. The soul

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Speaker 1: is believed to remain in the after world and can

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Speaker 1: be prayed to, and at the same time it exists

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Speaker 1: in the human form of the reincarnate reincarnated individual also

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Speaker 1: known as those made again. So you've got one foot

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Speaker 1: here and the present and one foot in the past. Yes,

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Speaker 1: reincarnation often sort of bleeds over into these other ideas

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Speaker 1: of say, for instance, the ancestor. Worship or or at

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Speaker 1: least holding up the ancestor is an extremely important part

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Speaker 1: of not only the past but the present, and in

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Speaker 1: that you see some of these models of reincarnation are

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Speaker 1: more of a family model of reincarnation. People are reincarnated

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Speaker 1: within the bloodline, and of course that makes a lot

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Speaker 1: of sense because we know how genetics work. We know

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Speaker 1: how how genes are passed on from one generation to

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Speaker 1: the next. So in a sense, there is something in

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Speaker 1: your grandfather that's living on in this bloodline. Now, on

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Speaker 1: the same note, you also find uh mythic reincarnation, the

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Speaker 1: idea that gods are reborn as kings and the other

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Speaker 1: important you know, figures. And in this we see a

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Speaker 1: lot of cyclical time and archetypes. We've talked to a

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Speaker 1: lot before about how when you look at this older

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Speaker 1: model of time, before the linear time um, everything was

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Speaker 1: a cycle and independent individual moments and even individuals were

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Speaker 1: only important insofar as how they uh recaptured some sort

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Speaker 1: of archetype from the past. Because in some ways these

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Speaker 1: are delusions, right, So if you claim that a pharaoh

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Speaker 1: is you are reincarnate of Pharaoh, then you are trying

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Speaker 1: to assume that Pharaoh's power. And I'm thinking about Sodom Hussein,

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Speaker 1: who claimed to have been the reincarnation of a Babylonian king.

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Speaker 1: And we see this, you know, not just in present day,

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Speaker 1: but throughout history, people claiming to have the sort of

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Speaker 1: powers of these um very important ancestors or historical figures

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Speaker 1: throughout time. Yeah, and you always hear about the king

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Speaker 1: that somebody was in their past life. People tend not

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Speaker 1: to focus on the uh, the you know, the the

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Speaker 1: street bum or the or or the or some sort

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Speaker 1: of a war criminal or anything of that nature, or

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Speaker 1: does the common goatherd. But you know, that makes sense

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Speaker 1: if you want to fasten your yourself to some you know,

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Speaker 1: imagine figure in the past, you want to do something inspiring,

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Speaker 1: I guess. But and that kind of falls into another

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Speaker 1: version of reincarnation. You find sort of, especially in the West,

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Speaker 1: a kind of casual, feel good reincarnation where we just

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Speaker 1: kind of just a quick path on the back to say, hey,

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Speaker 1: maybe when I die, I'm gonna be reborn as an eagle.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you don't die, maybe you're reincarnated as as this

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Speaker 1: plant or this person. And it's just there's not even

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Speaker 1: like any kind of real religion or world view or

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Speaker 1: structure to the idea is just sort of a comforting

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Speaker 1: possible notion, a whimsical reincarnation. Yeah, but nothing could be

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Speaker 1: further from the idea of karmic reincarnation that we've discussed

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Speaker 1: so far. You know that, because this is serious business.

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Speaker 1: This is about for the for the practitioner of Buddhism,

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Speaker 1: or Hinduism. This is about where I'm going to land

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Speaker 1: in the next life, avoiding some sort of hellish reincarnation

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Speaker 1: and also eventually freeing myself from the cycle altogether. So

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Speaker 1: it's not just a you know, a pad on the back.

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Speaker 1: It's it's considered serious business. That's right. It's very rich

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Speaker 1: in rituals and steps are to be taken. It's not

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Speaker 1: just as you say, the casual association with if I

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Speaker 1: do this one good day, perhaps I will not be

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Speaker 1: a cockroach in the next life. Yeah, I mean, the

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Speaker 1: Tibetan Book of the Dead is all about the steps

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Speaker 1: that one can take as this traveling soul, as the psychonaut,

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Speaker 1: and the steps that your that the your survivors can

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Speaker 1: take to help guide you through that gray area into

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Speaker 1: the next life. It's it's it's a dangerous voyage for

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Speaker 1: the practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism. And then there's one more

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Speaker 1: version of reincarnation, one more take on it. That's uh,

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Speaker 1: that that has a lot of Lusser to it, and

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Speaker 1: that's kind of a metaphoric interpretation. Okay, this is the

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Speaker 1: idea that that the idea that Buddhist reincarnation is not

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Speaker 1: a literal model of rebirth through various forums and a

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Speaker 1: karmic cycle, but rather a model for our moment to

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Speaker 1: moment reincarnation. And and I tend to really like this interpretation.

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Speaker 1: It's the idea that instead of oh, if you leave

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Speaker 1: a lead a peaceful human life, then maybe you'll have

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Speaker 1: more peace in the next moment. Or if you have

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Speaker 1: a sort of an out of controlled, lavish demi god life, uh,

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Speaker 1: then your next life might see you cast down into

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Speaker 1: the hells. But rather, what am I How do I

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Speaker 1: feel right now? Am I peaceful? Now? Well? Then that

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Speaker 1: means in the next moment I may be peaceful as

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Speaker 1: well if I am sort of if I'm on one

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Speaker 1: end of the pendulum now, if I'm you know, angry,

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Speaker 1: then maybe I'll swing back to something a little more

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Speaker 1: reasonable in the next It's a about that moment to

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Speaker 1: moment change in our our psyche and and in the

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Speaker 1: way we're experiencing the world around us. I like that.

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Speaker 1: I like that sense that if you're tending your own

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Speaker 1: garden at that very moment, then you're also converging on

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Speaker 1: the all points of time past, present, in future, and

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Speaker 1: that that tending of that garden now reaps its rewards

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Speaker 1: metaphorically throughout this ripple of time. Yeah, Alan Watts put

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Speaker 1: it really well. He said that, Okay, look at a flame.

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Speaker 1: A flame is a process and not a thing. He said, said,

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Speaker 1: every human being is also a process, just as a

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Speaker 1: flame is a conversion of wax into gas. Because who

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Speaker 1: are you right the at any given moment, You're a

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Speaker 1: different person than than who you were five minutes ago,

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Speaker 1: a month ago, a year ago. We're perpetually changing where

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Speaker 1: there We're just this this vast storm of ideas and

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Speaker 1: memories and and uh and interpretations of the world around us,

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Speaker 1: and so that that changes all the time. And we

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Speaker 1: talked a little bit about that in the Problem of

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Speaker 1: Immortality and as well as in our episodes on Hell,

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Speaker 1: like who who's judged when it comes to heaven? In hell?

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Speaker 1: The person you are now the person you were when

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Speaker 1: you die. It really gets problematic when you look at it.

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Speaker 1: It gets problematic even when you look at it in

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Speaker 1: terms of of crime and punishment here in the real world,

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Speaker 1: like how what happens when you judge somebody for a

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Speaker 1: crime they committed uh ten years ago? Is this the

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Speaker 1: same person that committed that crime? I was thinking about

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Speaker 1: this the other day. I thought, you know, so much

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Speaker 1: of life is about rutinization, about habits and about how

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Speaker 1: you know, you do wake up and you do you

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Speaker 1: feel maybe a little bit different from the person you

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Speaker 1: were the day before. And the things that keep us

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Speaker 1: the person that we are, or those uh cages of

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Speaker 1: habit that we create around us, those cues that, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: my name is Julie, I live in this house. These

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Speaker 1: are the things that surround me. These are the associations

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Speaker 1: that I have in this world. If all of those

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Speaker 1: cues fell away, would you be that same person? So

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Speaker 1: so again, metaphoric interpretation of reincarnation is very much the

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Speaker 1: idea that the person I am now is reincarnating into

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Speaker 1: the person I'm going to be a second from now,

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Speaker 1: and a second from from there, and and on and

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Speaker 1: on through the course of your life. Let's take a

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Speaker 1: quick break, and when we get back, where we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about a little bit more about ancestral reincarnation

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Speaker 1: is something called the persistence of personality. Reppy, all right,

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Speaker 1: we're back, and indeed this is gonna be the segment

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Speaker 1: of the episode where we get into a little more

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Speaker 1: of the skeptical views of reincarnation and indeed what happens

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Speaker 1: when science gets involved and science is involved. In fact,

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Speaker 1: in two thou twelve, a five million dollar grant was

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Speaker 1: awarded to you see, a University of California Riverside to

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Speaker 1: study immortality, including reincarnation and resurrection by the John Templeton Foundation.

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Speaker 1: So that's really interesting and just a side note one

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Speaker 1: of the things that they want to try to figure

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Speaker 1: out our near death experiences because culturally, say, in the

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Speaker 1: United States, it's very different from Japan because in the

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Speaker 1: United States we have the little trope of you see

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Speaker 1: a light at the end of the tunnel, whereas in

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Speaker 1: Japan it's that people are seen tending a garden, huh,

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Speaker 1: which plays into this idea of well, how much of

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Speaker 1: it is just this mental construct that we play into.

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Speaker 1: Is there any sort of way that we can get

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Speaker 1: to it scientifically and figure out if there's a basis

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Speaker 1: to reincarnation. Yeah, because that that brings to mind episodes

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Speaker 1: we've done about alien encounters and abduction experiences and ghosts,

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Speaker 1: ghost encounters and any kind of paranormal experience one might

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Speaker 1: have the the at the core of it there might

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Speaker 1: be something similar, but a lot of it seems to

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Speaker 1: be based on the cultural script you're bringing into the experience.

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Speaker 1: So you're experiencing sleep paralysis of very real condition. But then,

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Speaker 1: what kind of myth do you lay on top of,

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Speaker 1: what kind of religion do you lay on top of,

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Speaker 1: what kind of uh, you know, cultural sci fi reference

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Speaker 1: do you lay on top of it? To interpret the

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Speaker 1: the this other worldly experience. Right, you're you're sleeping, you're

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Speaker 1: in a dream, you're paralyzed, and you're starting to wake

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Speaker 1: and your your brain is confused about what state to

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Speaker 1: be in. Maybe there's some sort of green light emanating

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Speaker 1: from the hallway, you know, that becomes interpreted into, as

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Speaker 1: you say, the cultural script that's put before us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so that's very much a part of the scientific

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Speaker 1: analysis of reincarnation as well. Now, when we talk about

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Speaker 1: studying reincarnation, obviously there's very little that science can do

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Speaker 1: to study reincarnation. Reincarnation largely exists as an idea outside

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Speaker 1: of the observable universe, outside of of science. It's uh,

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Speaker 1: it's like trying to scientifically prove the existence of God.

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Speaker 1: It can't be done. It's not a provable thing. It's

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Speaker 1: a matter of faith and worldview and all that. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: it's the same thing with reincarnation. The studies that we

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Speaker 1: look at tend to be based in interviews with children

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Speaker 1: with their parents, rigorous note taking, and then trying to

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Speaker 1: to compare different experiences in different accounts of of not

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Speaker 1: only this life but the life before. Yeah. Dr Ian Stevenson,

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Speaker 1: an academic psychiatrist, led the study of reincarnation in the

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Speaker 1: US until his death in two thousand and seven, and

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Speaker 1: he founded the Division of Personality Studies under the University

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Speaker 1: of Virginia's Department of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences. He conducted

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Speaker 1: thousands of interviews. As you say, he took rigorous notes, um,

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Speaker 1: and his studies focused really on young children, usually between

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Speaker 1: the ages of two and five, who had inexplicable phobias

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Speaker 1: or detailed memories about a previous life as reported by

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Speaker 1: the parent. Yeah, and these cases generally, generally they broke

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Speaker 1: down about like this, like, here's the kid again, some

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Speaker 1: sort of weird phobia. They're afraid of busses or something,

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Speaker 1: you know, or they're suddenly talking about Ron all the time. Well,

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Speaker 1: who's wrong. There's no Ron in the immediate family. Why

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Speaker 1: is Ron such a character in this three year old's life.

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Speaker 1: And then you start to you start comparing notes, and

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Speaker 1: you find out, oh, well, there's a family in the

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Speaker 1: next town and uh and and this uh, this woman

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Speaker 1: died and her husband's name was Ron. Or here's this uh,

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Speaker 1: this case just like a few streets over where somebody

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Speaker 1: was hit by a car. And so maybe that explains

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Speaker 1: the phobia. It's the idea that the soul has moved

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Speaker 1: on from one body to another, and in doing so,

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Speaker 1: has brought over at least some aspect of that previous

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Speaker 1: personality enough to carry over a severe phobia or a

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Speaker 1: severe or a or a significant attachment to another person.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're doing our next podcast episode on the

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Speaker 1: illusion of continuity. And I just realized the overlap here,

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Speaker 1: because if you have all of these details, and we

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Speaker 1: already know that our brains are pattern recognition machines, it

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Speaker 1: can't help but sees on these details and say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: four or five kilometers away, there was a girl who

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Speaker 1: died in a rice patty when she was eight years old,

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Speaker 1: And perhaps it's that girl's soul reincarnated into this other

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Speaker 1: little girl who's having these very serious phobias of water

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Speaker 1: and drowning. Yeah, Stevenson studied about different cases over the

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Speaker 1: course about four decades. He published several books and articles

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Speaker 1: about it. Really, it's a it's an intimidating amount of

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Speaker 1: information that he put together and and it's and it's

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Speaker 1: all all of it is coming down to individual cases

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Speaker 1: where they went out and analyzed that, they talked to

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Speaker 1: the parents, they talked to the child, and uh. At

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Speaker 1: the end of it, though, you ultimately have this this huge,

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Speaker 1: massive information that science largely rejects because again it's it's

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Speaker 1: just based in it's it's more like a police case

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Speaker 1: really than anything. It's more about about the just asking

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Speaker 1: people when pairing accounts of the situation, rather than than

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Speaker 1: any kind of actual scientific investigation. And we'll get to

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Speaker 1: why that process has flawed in a moment. But I

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Speaker 1: wanted to mention someone named Jim Techer. He is a

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Speaker 1: professor of psychiatry and neurobehavioral sciences at the University of

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Speaker 1: Virginia who really picked up where Stevenson left off and

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Speaker 1: he and I believe this was an interview with PDS.

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Speaker 1: He he said this about reincarnation. He said, some leading

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Speaker 1: scientists in the past, like Max Plank, who's the father

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Speaker 1: quantum theory, said that he viewed consciousness as fundamental and

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Speaker 1: that matter was derived from it. So in that case,

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Speaker 1: it would mean that consciousness would not necessarily be dependent

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Speaker 1: on a physical brain in order to survive, and could

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Speaker 1: continue after the physical brain and after the body dies.

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Speaker 1: In these cases it seems, at least on the face

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Speaker 1: of it, that a consciousness has then become attached to

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Speaker 1: a new brain and has shown up as past life memories.

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Speaker 1: And then he goes on to say, I think these

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Speaker 1: cases can tr ribute to the body of evidence that consciousness,

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Speaker 1: at least in some circumstances, can survive the death of

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Speaker 1: the body, that life after death isn't necessarily just a

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Speaker 1: fantasy or something to be considered on faith, but can

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Speaker 1: be approached in an analytical way, and the idea can

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Speaker 1: be judged on its own merits. That's pretty that's a

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Speaker 1: heavy statement. That is that it goes right into the

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Speaker 1: mind body problem that we discussed in some past episodes.

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Speaker 1: The idea that we have this physical brain and then

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Speaker 1: we have this mind, and when we compare the two,

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Speaker 1: they don't seem to match up, uh, you know, one

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Speaker 1: to one. So we come into to all these various theories,

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Speaker 1: these philosophical models for what the relationship is. Is the

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Speaker 1: is the mind merely the shadow cast by the brain,

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Speaker 1: or does the does the mind exist independently of the brain.

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Speaker 1: And that's the case that Tucker is making here, the

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Speaker 1: idea that that the mind doesn't need a physical brain

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Speaker 1: in order to exist. But perhaps uh is like this

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Speaker 1: sort of psychic energy ghost that merely haunts and inhabits

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Speaker 1: physical brains, like the physical brain is a little hotel

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Speaker 1: room that nature has prepared for this visiting neugget of

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Speaker 1: soul energy, if you will. The problem, of course, is

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Speaker 1: just runs counter to Acam's razer. Right. This is not

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Speaker 1: the simplest explanation, Right, You're building an increasingly elaborate explanation

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Speaker 1: for the metaphysics of of an immortal soul. And it's fascinating,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's very cool. I I really like

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Speaker 1: the idea. But but yeah, you're creating something that's more

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Speaker 1: complex than the than the immediate answer. And again, it's

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Speaker 1: nothing you can prove, it's nothing that can be scientifically studied.

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Speaker 1: It is ultimately Tucker is having to accept this as

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Speaker 1: an article of personal faith and just like any other

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Speaker 1: model that one might assume of what happens to an

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Speaker 1: immortal soul after death or before it. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and it's just not showing up.

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Speaker 1: There's compelling the interesting evidence. I guess if you can

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Speaker 1: call that with you know, those interviews. Um, but I

424
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,199
Speaker 1: believe that those interviews, only twenty of them have written

425
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 1: accounts by the parents immediately afterwards. Now what's the problem

426
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 1: with that, Because because when you have only twenty cases

427
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 1: where the parents wrote the record before the match was made,

428
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: that means you only have twenty cases where the where

429
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: the information was not yet corrupted by the match. And

430
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 1: he discussed right to the fouible nature of memory, uh

431
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: and our our tendency to to rewrite and reinterpret our

432
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: memories in light of new evidence. UM. For instance, UH,

433
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: that the child is talking about an imaginary friend named Ron. Um.

434
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: If if you are telling the investigator about Ron after

435
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: you found out about the uh, the Ron whose wife

436
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: died in a neighboring city, then that potentially colors the

437
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: story that you give the the interrogator not to mention

438
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 1: that child might have been watching parks and rec and

439
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: then watching Ron, I do keep imagining Ron Swanson and

440
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: all I do to the mustache hero of parks and

441
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: rec Now, these ideas were explored a little bit more

442
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 1: in Mary Rich's Spook. She has a chapter on this,

443
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: I believe the chapter is called You Again, and she

444
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: goes to India, where, um, these sort of narratives, these

445
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: reincarnation narratives are somewhat common, I mean, at least uh

446
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,959
Speaker 1: in comparison to the United States. And she says that

447
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 1: by the time the researcher arrives on the scene, the

448
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: family has usually found a likely candidate for the child's

449
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: former incarnation. Most Indian villagers accept reincarnation is fact, and

450
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: word of a child remembering a past like travels quickly

451
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: to neighboring villages. Yeah. So, on one hand, you have

452
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: the pre existing cultural script for what is happening and

453
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 1: why the child is talking about Ron. And then by

454
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: the time the investigator gets there, they've already begun to uh,

455
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: to piece together the story to form their own answer

456
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: of what's happening and UH and and where this particular

457
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 1: soul has come from and UH, and that's just gonna

458
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: color everything that they pass on to to the to

459
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 1: the interrogator. Yeah, and even if it was written down,

460
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: we know that memory is fallible, and I will tell

461
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: you just as completely anecdotal. But you know, I write

462
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: down a lot of things that my daughter says, and

463
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 1: even right that split second after she says that, I

464
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: go and I grab a pen. I will write it

465
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: down and then I will read it back to her

466
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 1: and say did you say this? And she'll say, no,

467
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: I said this because I have inadvertently rearranged from the

468
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: words you know, or in it. And when you once

469
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: you do that, you know that you have changed the

470
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: context of a sentence. So that's in a split second.

471
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: Can you imagine trying to get that trickle of babble

472
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,239
Speaker 1: that comes out of toddler's and makes sense of it,

473
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: you know, five minutes after the fact. Yeah, Like, uh,

474
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: my son will suddenly start off singing this little song

475
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: and he's kind of going a mingo, mingo, mingo, But

476
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: we eventually started interpreting it is mango mango, and now

477
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: it's the mango mango song. Uh, which is all pointless,

478
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: but again where you just instantly start forming, taking what

479
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: they've given you and forming it into something that makes

480
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: a little more narrative sense and as Dr Kiri S. Robert,

481
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 1: that's the director of International Center for Survival and Reincarnation

482
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: Researches that Mary Roach spoke with in in her research

483
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: for Spook, that the parents will latch onto almost anything,

484
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: like any little little bit. Again, we we we crave

485
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 1: synchronicity in life. We look for our pattern recognizing brains,

486
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: look for those little uh you know, one or two

487
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: uh bits of light that match up, not all the

488
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: other ones that are out of place. So, you know,

489
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: the mention of the name ron, the mention of fear

490
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 1: of automobiles. Whatever, they'll take that, they'll run with it.

491
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: They'll shape that without even really having without having any

492
00:27:55,119 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: kind of mischief in mind. Uh, They'll they'll form the uh,

493
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: they'll form a story that fits everything. They'll they'll edit

494
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: it into a shape that that works with reincarnation. Which

495
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 1: makes sense again if culturally this is a part of

496
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 1: the fabric. And if your kid is is reincarnated, does

497
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: that make your child special? You know? Is this this

498
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: something that in a family that feels very special. Oh,

499
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: my child is reincarnated, he or she is an old soul. Yeah,

500
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: does that give you a higher position among your neighbors. Well,

501
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: I mean, as apparent, one of the things you inevitably

502
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: fear and think about is what happens if my child dies? Right,

503
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: and you're by by strengthening their bond to a a

504
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: life before this one, you're of course also strengthening the

505
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: existence of a life beyond this one. So you're kind

506
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: of answering one question with another one. You know. You know,

507
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: that's kind of interesting because that terror management system that

508
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: we talked about in the immortality problem, really I think

509
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: writes that those ages between two and five, at least

510
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: it did for me as a parent, where you get

511
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: to age two with your child and you've gotten past that.

512
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: I have a baby, and I'm kind of you've got

513
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: sleep deprivation, but now I have a toddler, and it

514
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: almost feels like you have to create an even bigger

515
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: swaddle around your your child to protect him or her.

516
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: And this idea that it's not just getting your child

517
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: to age two and aged five and age seven, you're

518
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: gonna be worrying about your child age forty, age eighty,

519
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: especially if you're I don't know, a hundred and twenty

520
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: at that point um for the rest of your life.

521
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: So I wonder if psychologically it's fertile ground those ages

522
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: two to five to ascribe the sort of reincarnation narrative

523
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: to a child in that culture. Yeah. And the the

524
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: other big thing too, is, of course that you know

525
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: I've already alluded to this, but young children age two

526
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: to five here in the in the in the in

527
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: the West, tend to have a proclivity for imaginary friends.

528
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: We did a whole episode on imaginary ends in the past,

529
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: and I'll try and push that back up back out

530
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: on social media and on the website when this episode publishes.

531
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: But kids are already bringing in unreal personalities into their

532
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: imaginative play. They're bringing in ron or they're bringing in

533
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: Uh didn't you said that your daughter had an image?

534
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: I stopped counting after eight. But she has a couple now,

535
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: twins that terrorize the house, um that show up, and

536
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: then one that she dropped about six months ago, and

537
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: her name was Delta, and she could see her in

538
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: the mirror. And Delta lived in an abandoned house and

539
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: on our street, and so that of course would kind

540
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: of freak me out sometimes. But then I realized that

541
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: our faucet is a Delta faucet um, and that was

542
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: the mirror that she was looking in. You know, she

543
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: was looking at the faucet was she was looking at

544
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: the mirror. So anyway, again you can it's very easy

545
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: for us to start to throw some of the stuff

546
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: together and create these narratives. Yeah, and as Dr Rowitt

547
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: points out, in any roaches spook uh in the West

548
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: were likely to just look at these cases, to hear

549
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: about Ron or delta and and just see it for

550
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: what it is, right to say, oh, it's just imaginary

551
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: friend and dismiss it. But in the East, where there

552
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: is especially in India, where there's this cultural script of reincarnation,

553
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: parents are more likely to not only say, hey, that's reincarnation, clearly,

554
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: that's a sign of a past life. They're likely to

555
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: encourage it to to nurture the child's story into something

556
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: that that fits the reincarnation script even more, to say, oh,

557
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: did you say Ron or do you mean Wren, because

558
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: we know a wren died, a wren had a wife

559
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: die in then the neighboring city or what have you.

560
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: You know, they'll they'll begin to mold it, begin to

561
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: edit it again into something that fits the story. Mingo

562
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: mingo becomes mango mango because they have mango mango, and

563
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: then it becomes mango for him, exactly right, the mingo mango.

564
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: So these are just all examples of the problems with

565
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: any kind of quote unquote scientific exploration of reincarnation. There's

566
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: nothing about it you can actually prove in terms of

567
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: the transfer of soul energy from one being to another.

568
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: And when it comes to these interviews with parents and children,

569
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: they're they're they're just flawed at several different levels. Yeah,

570
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: information gathering, the perception of that information. UM. I wanted

571
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 1: to go back real quickly to molecular reincarnation because Enrico Uvo,

572
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: who was writing for Science to point oh, has a

573
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: really interesting bit to say about it, just to kind

574
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: of close out some of our thoughts on this. He says,

575
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: we sit to eat molecules that were once part of

576
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: fish and plants. We become the reincarnation of transient beings.

577
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: When we drink ions and uncharged atoms, we borrow them

578
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: and enrich them with nitrogenous compounds. Rivers then flow in

579
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: ocean's ebb with parts of ourselves that will soon become

580
00:32:54,920 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: parts of others. As thinking animals are molecules orchestrate into

581
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: neurons and neurotransmitters. Strongly interwoven assemblies of neurons known as ideas,

582
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: occasionally emerge. The best of these reincarnate themselves in the

583
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: minds of others, and like the molecules that make them possible,

584
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: they outlive the temporary shelters of individuals. Death is simply

585
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: the final and largest repayment of a molecular debt, but

586
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: a fair amount of caring and weaving can be done

587
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: before then. Yeah, there you go. Or you know, another

588
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: way to put it is the energy cannot be created

589
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: or destroyed, and mass, uh, you and me included are

590
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: just energy and energy transposed into matter, so on, you know,

591
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: on varying levels. Reincarnation makes a lot of sense and

592
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: and feels very solid and and is something that appeals

593
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: to us because we see these cycles in the world

594
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: around us. But when you shine the light of scientific

595
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: inquiry on it, most of of of the structure doesn't

596
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: show up, and what does show up is highly suspect.

597
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: And I think it's a homage to how incredibly artistic

598
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 1: our brains are and what great storytellers we are, and

599
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: how we survive in this world which is so complex

600
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: and through so many things at us um that we

601
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: can weave these sort of narratives together which are actually

602
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: kind of lovely and give us a lot of solace. Yeah. Yeah,

603
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: I think reincarnation is is a beautiful idea, and I

604
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: do want to stress even though we're saying, you know,

605
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: when when you shine science on it, mostly nothing shows up.

606
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: I don't want anyone to take that the wrong way

607
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: because I think an idea like reincarnation, like like various

608
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: metaphysical ideas about you know, what happens to the soul

609
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: after death, you don't need science to prove that to you.

610
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: That that should be a matter, in my opinion, that

611
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: should be a matter uh, completely outside of science. Let's

612
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: science prove the things that science can prove. Let science

613
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: be your guide for the observable universe in the natural world,

614
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: and in terms of anything that exists outside of that

615
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 1: natural world for you, anything else in that worldview U

616
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:05,439
Speaker 1: you know, let that sort of float free. Indeed, all right, well,

617
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: speaking of floating, if you want to float us any

618
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 1: ideas or comments about this podcast or any other podcasts

619
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: that we've done or podcast that we may do in

620
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: the future. You can find us at all the usual places.

621
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,919
Speaker 1: Our mothership is Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

622
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 1: That's where you will find all the podcast episodes, all

623
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 1: the videos, all the blog costs, as well as links

624
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: to our various social media accounts uh Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler,

625
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: Google Plus, YouTube, SoundCloud. We're in all of those and

626
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: he knows what the future will bring. And if you

627
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: want to send us an old fashioned email, well you

628
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 1: can do that too, that's right. All you have to

629
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: do is address it to Blow the Mind at discovery

630
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

631
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: Does it how stuff works dot com