1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I want to throw 2 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: a question out there to you, what, in your estimation 3 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: is your worst nightmare come true? Now you know this, 4 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,639 Speaker 1: That statement is so broad, I know, and it can 5 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: be populated with all manner of horror. Now I think 6 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:44,639 Speaker 1: for me, I'm horribly claustrophobic, and that's something that has 7 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: happened as a result of, you know, my work that 8 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: I did for years and years. It's just kind of 9 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: a h one of those little adjunct adjunct things that 10 00:00:54,720 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: comes along with PTSD. I couldn't bear the thought of 11 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: it being locked down, closed in, surrounded by a bunch 12 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: of people, where I couldn't get out, not being able 13 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: to breathe, panicked, searching for an exit. Can you imagine 14 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: waking up in an environment that's not familiar to you, 15 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: or perhaps you feel danger, you're panicked. Today we're going 16 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: to talk about a case that, in my estimation, is 17 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: going to be the stuff of absolute nightmare for many 18 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: of us. We're going to talk about the death, the 19 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: resurrection and the death of Constance Glance. I'm Joseph Scott 20 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Now we're past Resurrection Sunday, 21 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: Dave Loath. These many weeks, you know, Easter has ended, 22 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: you know, and a great celebration something I look forward 23 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: to at my church, you know, every year. However, there 24 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: are those events involving death that I think that many 25 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: of us are fearful of. Many people feel very uncomfortable. 26 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: I've had people actually feel uncomfortable around me, and I'm 27 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: pretty approachable guy, because just merely by virtue of the 28 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: fact that I'm associated with death, as you know, I 29 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: just my presence makes people uncomfortable. And I've never threatened 30 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: number or anything like that. You know, they just they 31 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: know that I've been around that and that sort of thing. 32 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: But I'm thinking back, we were we were kind of 33 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: talking about this earlier, and it kind of gave me 34 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: a chuckle about the links, the links that folks used 35 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 1: to go to our ancestors to avoid being buried alive. 36 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 2: The term saved by the bell is part of that lore. 37 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: You're right, and that's not just a teeny bopper TV 38 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: show from the nineties. This is there's a reason they Yeah, 39 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: they used to actually have a bell that was adjacent 40 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: to a grave side and there would be a string 41 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: that went through a hole in the ground down into 42 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: the casket. So if the person who had been freshly buried, 43 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: let's say it that way, were to suddenly awaken, yep, 44 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: they could pull on the string and ring the bell. 45 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: And there were actually also see how can I describe 46 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: this other people, There were actually these horns that came 47 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: up out of the ground. When I say horns, they're 48 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: like megaphones. Old megaphones that yeah, that had a cup 49 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: that you would speak into and it would transmit the 50 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: sound through the bell that was above ground and people 51 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: could hear you. 52 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 2: I hope somebody would hear it. 53 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, no kidding. And I think that they used to 54 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: actually have a group of people that I don't know 55 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: the specific name, other than maybe grave watchers, that would 56 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: hang out for twenty four hours after burial in some circumstances, 57 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: just to guarantee that the person that had been buried 58 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: was in fact deceased again. And this goes back to 59 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: Tom's when you know, prior to embalming, right, all right, 60 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: Embalming is not something I know, we hear about it 61 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: with the ancient Egyptians and all that sort of thing. 62 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: It's not something thing that has been around forever and 63 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: ever in Western society. Okay, So the fact that today 64 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: we have a case of a lady who was declared 65 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: dead and turned out not to be dead. 66 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: Right, that's the name of wame right there. 67 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: And and she doesn't really come to in the funeral home, 68 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: but it was a funeral home worker that essentially saved 69 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: her life, at least for a very short space of time. 70 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 2: Well, all right, Constance Glance seventy four years old. She 71 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 2: was already in a nursing home, extended care, late care, 72 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it, but in a nursing home, 73 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 2: and they were she was on that that zone of 74 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: life where yeah, your family has already said their goodbyes, and. 75 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, end of life care, refresh. 76 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 2: Today to go, thank you. That was always trying to 77 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 2: come up with end of life care. Well, the staff 78 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 2: at the nursing home, believe you know, the nurse goes 79 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 2: into check on her and doesn't appear to be breathing, 80 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 2: can't find a pulse, and calling the nurse practitioner who 81 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 2: comes in, I guess and yep, she's dead. Now. I 82 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: don't know if they got a mirror and put it 83 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 2: up under her nose or anything like that, but she 84 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 2: was believed to have passed away at nine four am. 85 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 2: Because it's in a nursing home in Nebraska, they don't 86 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 2: call the coroner, right because it's not a suspicious death. 87 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 2: It's expected. Ye, So rather than a corner being called 88 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: in to declare her dead, she is sent directly to 89 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 2: the funeral home. Now, once she's at the funeral home, somebody, 90 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: a worker preparing the funeral. I guess, man, it might 91 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 2: not have been for her. You know, they're prepared, being 92 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 2: a funeral generic term there, realizes she's breathing. Now, I 93 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 2: don't know if she burped, coughed. I don't know what happened. 94 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: But this worker thankfully realized that this woman was breathing, 95 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 2: she was still alive. And this is a couple hours 96 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 2: after the fact. We're not talking minutes. We're talking a 97 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: couple hours after she'd been nicclared dead. The funeral home worker. 98 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 2: I don't know what happens after this, Joe. I mean, 99 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 2: I don't know the process. When you're in there in 100 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: the funeral home. You know there's several rooms in a 101 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 2: funeral home. You know, there are living quarters. They're the 102 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 2: areas where they display the deceased for visitation. There's usually 103 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 2: a small casket room displaying other caskets that you could purchase. 104 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 2: At some funeral homes, you have a kitchen area, and 105 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 2: you have the embalming area. 106 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, the prep room, prep room. 107 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I don't know, I'm going to assume that 108 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 2: she's in the prep room. 109 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: Yes, that would be where. And they have actually somebody 110 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: to put. 111 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: A dead body in a funeral home. 112 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: Right exactly, And it has to be done, and it's 113 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: generally done in a very tasteful sense. I got a tag. 114 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: I got to make a confession to you. 115 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 2: Here funeral home Confessions. Here we go, new TV show. 116 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: It's a million dollar idea, isn't it. Funeral homes creep 117 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: me out. They always have And even even in my 118 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: in my world, which I've spent a lot of time 119 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: in funeral homes, because I've actually had to go there 120 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: after the fact to conduct examinations on bodies before we 121 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: actually say, okay, we're going to go ahead and say 122 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: you know, you can proceed with the preparation of the body. 123 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: And of course I've been there unfortunately many times for 124 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: people that I've known and loved that have passed away. 125 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: But there there's something about the the the artificial nature 126 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: of it, the manufactured ambiance, if you will, the creepy lighting, 127 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: the music, the power point, all that stuff, even the 128 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: way the place smells. It's just it's not. It's not 129 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: someplace that I look forward to going to at any 130 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: point in time, even as a forensic scientist. And I've 131 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: been to many prep rooms. I've been. I've been to 132 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: prep rooms over the years where bodies are in various 133 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: states of the prep, pre embalming and post embalming, and 134 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: certainly in the midst of the embalming. You know, part 135 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: of me was fascinated by that because I wouldn't see 136 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: how the process worked, and I have many times, but 137 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: I cannot even begin to imagine this worker who is there, 138 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: who is getting ready. Just keep in mind that is 139 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: getting ready to essentially profuse the body with embalming fluid, 140 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: because that's the next step you have to do that. 141 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: And what do they notice, Well, they notice that the 142 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: chest is apparently rising and falling, that constance chest is 143 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: apparently rising and falling, giving an indication that she still 144 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: has life. And you talk about being in an odd 145 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: space here you are you normally are taking care of 146 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: individuals mortal remains, but I can and again I'm super 147 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: imposing my thoughts upon this. They started CPR on her day, 148 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: and while they were doing CPR, they were I can't 149 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: even begin to imagine what was going through their minds 150 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: at this moment. Tom and they had said that, you 151 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: know that they started CPR, and I'm thinking, well, if 152 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: she's breathing, if you notice she was breathing, why are 153 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: you doing CPR. But they did call nine to eleven, 154 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: and nine to eleven came to the facility. So that's 155 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: that's kind of a weird bit there for me to try. 156 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 2: They do CPR and I. 157 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: Have no idea. And you know, because if she if 158 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: the chest is rising and falling, that's an indication that 159 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: life is still in dwelling. 160 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: So maybe maybe maybe she saw the breathing and then 161 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: realized that she stopped breathing. 162 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: And she may have, but you know, when you have people. Now, 163 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: let's keep in mind Constance was in a nursing home, 164 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: but she's also been identified as a hospice patient. Okay, Now, 165 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: you can have a whole wing of a nursing facility 166 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: that is devoted to hospice care, and these patients are 167 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: completely different than the rest of the population. Okay that 168 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: in dwells a facility, and these facilities sometimes can be massive, 169 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: all right, So they're providing what is referred to as 170 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: palliative care. Palliative care is you're making the individual comparable 171 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: in this in the last the final weeks or days, 172 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: maybe months, I don't it's hard to say, leading toward 173 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: their end. And it's called palliative care. 174 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 2: I always thought that just meant that you were giving 175 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 2: them friendly care. But I guess you are being a 176 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 2: pal you know. 177 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, well palliative Yeah, it has kind of a different Yeah, 178 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: it kind of does, but it does have a different 179 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: connotation here. And here's the thing you mentioned the corner 180 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: And I want to get back to this, yeah very quickly, 181 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: because I think that many folks assume that every time 182 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: someone dies, the corner is is notified or corner slash 183 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: medical examiner, and that is not the case. The law, 184 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: dependent upon the state that you're in has a have 185 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: have pretty pretty specific rules about when when the medical 186 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: legal authorities are notified. But almost across the board, if 187 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: you have an attended death with a with a care 188 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: provider present or approximating the body they've got a history 189 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: of some kind of illness that is either terminal or 190 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: could be a terminal leading up to a terminal event, 191 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: and it can be documented. Sometimes those cases are not reportable, 192 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: and taking another step with hospice hospice death, those are 193 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: never reportable to the coroner, and so they they do 194 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: fly beneath the radar many times. So there wouldn't be 195 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: a need if someone passes away in a hospital, I 196 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: mean in a in a hospice situation, there wouldn't be 197 00:13:53,240 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: a need to contact us. And you never know, first off, 198 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: what has brought the person to the nursing home facility 199 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: to begin with. Now, maybe they sustained trauma many many 200 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: years ago. Can I tell you a quick story that's 201 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: kind of fascinating. I actually did an autopsy on a 202 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: guy that went into a nursing facility. His first nursing 203 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: facility that we could make a note of was I 204 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: think in nineteen forty eight. I did his autopsy. I 205 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: assisted in his autopsy in nineteen eighty nine, and he 206 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: had come in paralyzed below the waist. Now you say, well, 207 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: all the way back in the forties, why in the 208 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: world would you do an autopsy on somebody like that. 209 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: You want to hear something really amazing. This young man 210 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: had participated in the Battle of the Bulge. Oh wow, 211 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: he sustained a rifle wound to his ab and I actually, 212 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: I'm actually the person that went into his spine with 213 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: striker saw and recovered that projectile. And did you know 214 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: that after all of those years, the pathologists that I 215 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: was working with, they ruled his manner of death as 216 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: a homicide. And I'll never forget this. This stands out 217 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: in my mind so much to parts of this the 218 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: fact that when we removed that projectile, I was holding 219 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: in my hand literally a piece of history, because this 220 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: projectile had last been touched and loaded into the weapon 221 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: of probably some young German soldier in the Wehrmat that 222 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: was at the Battle of the Bulge and had fired 223 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: that rifle and struck this equally young soldier in the 224 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: abdomen and started this chain of events that led to 225 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: his death decades later. And I held that project on 226 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: mine and I'll never forget it was like one of 227 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: those moments where you're touching history, but the kind of 228 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: have cause and effect there, and that they did report 229 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: that death to us, and we wanted to examine him 230 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: because they told us he still has a bullet in him. 231 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: But wow, many times and I guess he could have 232 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: gone on to hospice maybe, but in most states, when 233 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: you have somebody that is in hospice care, those are 234 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: not going to be reportable to the coroner. And in 235 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: Constance case, she had they had diagnosed her. If she 236 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: is on hospice, which we are discovering here, then she 237 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: would be in kind of a terminal phase of her 238 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: life where she's moving toward death. But how in the 239 00:16:54,280 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: world are you going to do the assessment that facilitates 240 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: you and your facility releasing her body to a funeral 241 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: home where she's going to be prepared to be buried. 242 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: You know, they say that if you see a cardinal 243 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: in your yard, that's a visitation, that's a messenger sent 244 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: by God, perhaps even to give an indication that you 245 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: have a loved one. 246 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 2: That's some of the red birds, right, the red birds. Yeah, 247 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 2: I was thinking, because don't Catholics have cardinals And. 248 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's it's an ecclesiastical ecclesiastical post and it's 249 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 1: a high ranking priest the College of Cardinals. But those 250 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: are nouns aren't they. We have something in death investigation 251 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: that is actually an adjective, and so it means for us, 252 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: we have what are referred to DAVE as the cardinal 253 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: the cardinal signs of death, and it's one of the 254 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: little lists that we go down to assess deceased individuals. 255 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 1: When you begin to look at subjects at the scene, 256 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: the first thing you need to do is try to 257 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: validate your presence at to see why am I here? 258 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: You're calling me out because you have determined that this 259 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: individual is dead. You might be saying they're dead, but 260 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: let me tell you something. I'm going to prove to 261 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: myself that they are in fact deceased, no longer existing 262 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: in this realm. 263 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: Have you ever called out to a dead body that 264 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: wasn't dead? 265 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: Not in me? 266 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 2: Okay, not me. 267 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: However, However, when I was in Atlanta, and this is 268 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: going to blow you away, one of my colleagues was, 269 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: and I'll give you the quick, quick thumbnail. Here this 270 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: colleague of mine who was a really old death investigator, 271 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: even he was much older at this period of time. 272 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 1: And this guy was highly experienced. He had been a 273 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: homicide detective in Atlanta, and he gets called out to 274 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 1: what is the police are reporting as a suicide, and 275 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: it is a gentleman that has killed himself in a 276 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: bathtub by slashing his wrist. And the bathtub is full 277 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: of warm water. It's up to the very top and 278 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: it is tinged with red blood. You know, guy's knew 279 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: in the bathtub and his hands are resting on the 280 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: sides of the tub, and is both of the wrist 281 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: are slit. And this investigator with our office went over, 282 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: walked over to the body and starts taking This is 283 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: back in the days when we still did polaroid snapshots 284 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: and thirty five milimeters. We'd also do polaroids for quick reference. 285 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: This is before digital cameras, and so he's snapping polaroid photographs. 286 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: And he had brought along a physician that was in 287 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: training with him to become a forensic pathologist. This individual 288 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: walked over, had their gloves on, knelt next to the tub, 289 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: and when they went to reach for the body to 290 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: do their examination, the dead guy's hand went up in 291 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: the air like this at the wrist. It bent at 292 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: the wrist and went up and this individual turned to 293 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: the investigator and said, this guy's alive. Now, this is 294 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: in a bloody bathtub. Now, this is a monumental failure 295 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: on the part of the paramedics, to a lesser degree, 296 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: the police, because the police are not really there to 297 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: assess death. The empts had come out, and you know 298 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 1: what we determined at that point in time was that 299 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: because of the supersaturation that was surrounding the body. And 300 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: you know what they say about assume, they assumed that 301 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 1: they were dead, but they didn't want to put their 302 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 1: hands in the bloody water. Isn't that something? Well, the 303 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: investigator whom I had mentioned was a foreign police officer. 304 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: He goes outside of the apartment and there's a cop 305 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: standing post at the door, and he starts, as we say, 306 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: down in the South, he starts giving him down in 307 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: the country. He's yelling and screaming at this cop. He's 308 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: up in his face like a Marine Corps DI and 309 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 1: he's saying, get the wagon back out here immediately. I 310 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: want you to know, in that particular case, the wagon 311 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: did roll back out. The ambulance did. It wasn't the 312 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: same crew. They're probably hiding under a rock. They pulled 313 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: that guy out of the water day. They saved that 314 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: guy's life. Wow, they stitched him up, transfused him, put 315 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: him on psych unit. He got he got healthy, Wow, 316 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: and he was He went on with his life. I 317 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: don't know whatever became of him, but those things do happen. 318 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: And and and for us, we're looking for the cardinal 319 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: signs of death and forensics. Let me run some of 320 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: these down for you, and I want people to understand this. 321 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: This is one of the things we do as death investigators, 322 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: try to obsess and this was not done with constants. 323 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 1: I don't think we look for. First off, is there 324 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: a palpable pulse? You know, you can check the curate 325 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: it in the neck, you can check the radial pulse, 326 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: and the wrist you can check the brachial pulse, which 327 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: is if you stick your finger between your biceph on 328 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: the the medial aspect of it and press in, you 329 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: can actually feel very You can feel stronger there below 330 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: your bicep, on the inner portion of your bicep, much 331 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: better than you can the radial pulse in your wrist. 332 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: You know that would show people holding the wrist, you 333 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: can feel it a lot better. At the break heal. 334 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: You can even do ephemeral palpitation. That's a bit born difficult. 335 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: So you're looking for a pulse or an absence thereof 336 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: you're also looking for absence of respiration. And so how 337 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: do you do that. Well, if you don't have a 338 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: stethoscope handy where you can hear breast sounds, you can 339 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 1: actually get down to the level of the body so 340 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: that you're even with their chest. They're in your eye 341 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: line and you can look and see if the chest 342 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: is rising and falling. Now you had mentioned a mirror earlier. 343 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: There are some people that you know, fogging the mirror 344 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: is what it's called. Do they fog the mirror. I've 345 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: never come across anybody that assesses that way. I'm assuming 346 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: that it has been done at some point in time. 347 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,239 Speaker 1: Another thing you look for is non responsiveness to what 348 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: we refer to as painful stimuli. And if you've ever 349 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: seen somebody that in us that is passed out, uh, 350 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: and you're around the e mts that are assessing them, 351 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 1: you'll see them do a sternal rub. That's where they 352 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: take their knuckles and it's it's very painful. They'll press 353 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: down on the stern them and rub vigorously and you're 354 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: going to wake up. Relative to that, you can even 355 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: with gloved hands. You can even touch the eyeball, and 356 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: there's there's a reflex that occurs in that that you're 357 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,239 Speaker 1: going to respond where the person will blink. From an 358 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: evidentiary standpoint, it's not really a good idea. And of 359 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: course we look for things like obvious signs of of 360 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: of decomposition. We also look for, you know, if they've 361 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: got a foul odor and skin is changing color, you know, 362 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 1: you can pretty much say that the person's probably passed 363 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: on to their reward at that at that possible at 364 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: that time. And we also look for things in the immediate, 365 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: you know, like a rigidity with rick or mortis and 366 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: all those sorts of things post mortal avidity. But you know, 367 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: just the part of the rising and following in the chest, 368 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: the absence of a heartbeat, and non responsiveness to painful stimuli. 369 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: Those are just three in the immediate that you could do. Now, 370 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: there are people that are in such a state and 371 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: they're in hospice care where they're kind of in that lingering, 372 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: that kind of twilight zone, if you will, where they're 373 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 1: almost comatose, and you might not be able to fully 374 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: appreciate the status of the individual at that particular time, 375 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: and that can be problematic, I would assume because the 376 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: individual is not in fact demonstrating kind of life signs. 377 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: But with constance rolled she rolled out of the door 378 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: on a gurney. Now keep in mind, on a gurney, 379 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: Dave that's either placed into a van or a hearse. 380 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: I can't believe this, and carted off to the local 381 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: funeral home and where they're going to prep her. 382 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 2: That's a lot of people involved in her train. Oh 383 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 2: my gosh, nobody taken a close look. Because she's at 384 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 2: a nursing home. It's end of life care. They call us, 385 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 2: she's passed away, and you go there and gently respectfully 386 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 2: you're I would just you know again that assume you're 387 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 2: basing your activity on those that preceded you by calling 388 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 2: and saying, we have an elderly woman who has passed away. 389 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 2: No need to call the coroner. Just take her to 390 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 2: you know, Mulberry funeral home or no, it's Mulberry nursing 391 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 2: home is where she was. Take her to the funeral home. Now, 392 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 2: they were very specific that she passed away. They declared 393 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 2: her at nine four am. My first thought on this, 394 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 2: Joe was Andy Griffith really. Yep. Andy Griffith passed away 395 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 2: on the outer banks of North Carolina and he died 396 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 2: at about seven thirty that morning, and they held his 397 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 2: burial within five hours. It was part of his end 398 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 2: of life plan. He was not embalmed. And I don't 399 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,360 Speaker 2: believe there is a state of the union that actually 400 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 2: requires embalming, but in this particular case, he was not embalmed. 401 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 2: He was having breakfast with his wife at seven fifteen, 402 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 2: seven thirty. He's dead before lunch. He's in the ground. 403 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 2: And my thought was this, what if he was just 404 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 2: lightly breathing, you know, and anyway, so that was like 405 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 2: again my thought was I hope he was really dead. 406 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. Isn't that a horrifying thought? You know, 407 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: because one of the things that you think that is 408 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: conjured up in our minds and we hear this and 409 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: you've seen it in movies before. As a matter of fact, 410 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: I think in the original Brendan Fraser Mummy movie, they 411 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: showed the interior of a sarcophagus and there were scratch 412 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: marks on the interior of the sarcophagus, and so that 413 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: generates kind of this unease, if you will, And yeah, exactly, 414 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: and you really wonder if this has in fact happened before. 415 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: But we have to say that you never know what's 416 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: waiting around the corner in any death investigation. It doesn't 417 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: necessarily have to be some big trauma event, because I 418 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: know from my experience surprises await us around every corner. 419 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question, David, what do you think? 420 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: What do you think? My biggest fear was when I 421 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: was working in. 422 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 2: The morgue, Oh, dead person waking up? 423 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, to a certain degree, my biggest fear was that. 424 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: And I actually had this as a nightmare, a reoccurrent nightmare, 425 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: and I think that it was because just maybe the 426 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: mathematical probability had entered. 427 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 2: Into my brain. 428 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: I had. I had an absolute terror of holding a 429 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: number twenty two scalpel in my hand, which is generally 430 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: what I did autopsies with, which is a blade size. 431 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 2: By the way, I was going to ask you, because 432 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 2: you say number twenty two, you may say they come 433 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 2: in you know, they come in a variety of sizes. 434 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: But anyway, it had the most utility from my purpose. 435 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,959 Speaker 1: And when I make that initial incision, which is the 436 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: why incision, it starts at, you know, the apex of 437 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: the shoulders. You know that it would not be blood 438 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: that would come out of the incision in a seeping 439 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: kind of way. It would be an arterial spray. I 440 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: always had that that dream, that reoccurrent dream. And you know, 441 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: you you hear all of these stories day because you know, 442 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: our history is populated by these things. I mean, it 443 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: really is. They don't happen with great frequency where somebody 444 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: does in fact wake up in the morgue. But there 445 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: are those cases out there. I think you had mentioned 446 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: there's one just in the past year. 447 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 2: Out the three, they've been three in US nursing homes 448 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 2: in the last year. And in one case, the nursing 449 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: home was fined ten thousand dollars and it was in 450 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 2: Iowa where it granted. Now, this was a woman who 451 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 2: was an end of life care. She had dementia and 452 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 2: was suffering from Alzheimer's. But she was only sixty six 453 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 2: years old, Joe, and she was determined to be dead. 454 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 2: And in this particular case, staff members at the Glen 455 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 2: Oaks Alzheimer's Special Care Center reported that she had passed 456 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 2: away about six am. As I mentioned, she had early 457 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 2: onset dementia and anxiety and depression. She had a number 458 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 2: of issues for being in this hospice care, and a 459 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 2: staff member reported that she could no longer feel the 460 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 2: woman's pulse and ordered. In this case Iowa, a nurse 461 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 2: practitioner can declare make a death declaration. And it's different 462 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 2: in every status who actually can do this And Iowa 463 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 2: law allows nurses, physicians, assistants addition to doctors to declare 464 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 2: a patient dead. In this case, it was a nurse 465 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 2: practitioner who declared the woman dead about ninety minutes Joe. 466 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 2: Ninety minutes after she was declared dead, she was taken 467 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 2: to the funeral home and crematorium in a zipped body bag. 468 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 2: In a zipped body bag. When she arrives at the 469 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 2: funeral home, they unzipped her and somebody saw her chest 470 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: was moving and she gasped for air. 471 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: I bet she did. 472 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 2: She was in a body bag, Joe. Yeah, oh my goodness. 473 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: Yes, it's terrifying stuff. And they called nine one one. Yeah. Well, 474 00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: I'm glad they did because, you know, and in constance case, 475 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: you know, full reveal here, she didn't make it through 476 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: the day. No, you know, she she was transported to 477 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: the hospital and she's fragile to begin with, obviously, if 478 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: she's in hospice care and palliative care and so she 479 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: I don't know that she mercifully ever regained conscious consciousness. 480 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: But right now I think my thoughts kind of moved 481 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: towards the family because you know, they're having to they're 482 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: having to process all of this coming in, you know, 483 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: because okay, so let's just say, and this is the 484 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: way it would happen, she passes away at at this 485 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: nursing home. As soon as she she passes away, there's 486 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: a mechanism that goes into place. The family is notified. Now, 487 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: as you said, if she's in hospice status, the family, 488 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 1: this is not unexpected, right, So can you imagine this scenario. 489 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 1: You're the family, You get the call that Constance has 490 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: passed on. Okay, well, in hospice care what's mandated. And 491 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: in any nursing home, many times they will have a 492 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 1: designated funeral home that's already in your chart. Okay, So 493 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: just so that you understand that, the family would have said, okay, 494 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 1: well go ahead, call the funeral home. We have it 495 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: listed down there. They call the funeral home. Funeral home 496 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: comes and picks up, picks up Constance Okay, Now we 497 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: don't know how her body was prepped, because in certain 498 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: hospitals and facilities, what they'll do is they'll use what's 499 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: called a morgpack. A morkpack is not a body bag. 500 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,240 Speaker 1: It is a plastic wrapping that goes around the body 501 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: and it has strings with it where you can tie 502 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 1: the body off. It's tied around the neck, and it's 503 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: tied around the waist, it's tied around the feet, and 504 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: it almost looks like kite string that comes in this thing, 505 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: and they'll be placed onto a gurney and they will 506 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: be covered. Have you ever seen those coverings that funeral 507 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,839 Speaker 1: homes use. They're kind of they look like carpet. They're 508 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: furry looking and in grand calligraphy, embroidery, calligraphy along the side. 509 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 1: It'll have the logo of the funeral home on this thing, 510 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: and they're pushing. You see it at crime scenes many 511 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,760 Speaker 1: times people that use contractors like this, they'll be pushing 512 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: the body. So that's the way this would have gone down. 513 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,280 Speaker 1: And then they because most nursing home facilities don't have morgus, 514 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: so they the funeral home literally comes to the room, 515 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: removes the body off of the bed, places the body 516 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: onto the gurney, covers it in this this thing that 517 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: identifies the funeral home, goes down the hallway, places the 518 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 1: body in the back of a hearse and it could 519 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:14,720 Speaker 1: be a van, and then they drive off. But then 520 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 1: then there's. 521 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 2: More to the story. 522 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: But wait, there's more. The family has to now deal 523 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: with a phone call. And where did this phone call 524 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: come from? Does it come from the workers at the 525 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: funeral home. Probably not, they're going to get a funeral. 526 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: The family would then get a phone call from the 527 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 1: local emergency room, perhaps the charged nurse, and they're calling 528 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: to say, hey, look, this is so and so with 529 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: you know, the local general hospital. Your loved one is here. 530 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: We're trying to save her life. And the family's thinking, 531 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, well wait we wait, we were told 532 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 1: she was dead. Yeah, and now why are you calling us? 533 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,280 Speaker 1: And so that's the kind of thing. 534 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 2: That that would be just devastating it. 535 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: Is, and that's you know, this brings us back to 536 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: the cardinal sience of death, you know, with constance in 537 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: this particular case, the fact that the level of attention 538 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: that is actually required in something like this is not 539 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: intended to perhaps and it's not the hospice staff that 540 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: pays the price for it, because yeah, they're they're providing care. 541 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: But I doubt that you know, anybody at the nursing 542 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: home actually sat around and celebrated holidays with Constance over 543 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 1: the entirety of her life, or laughed with her, or 544 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: cried with her, or celebrated life with her. It's the 545 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 1: family at the end of the day that where this 546 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: really comes into play, and it's I think that it 547 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: is a cautionary tale and I'm so sorry that the 548 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: family went through this. But again, as we always say, uh, 549 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: you know, the devil is in fact in the details, 550 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 1: and particularly when it comes to a death investigation, it's 551 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: important to remember never ever assume anything. I'm Joseph Scott 552 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,760 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is bodybacks