Speaker 1: Pushkin Andre three thousand, best known as half of Atlanta's Outcast,
Speaker 1: arguably the greatest hip hop duo of all time and
Speaker 1: definitely one of the most gifted rappers ever. Outside of Atlanta.
Speaker 1: Most rap fans first heard of Outcast in nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: five when they got booed at the Source Awards after
Speaker 1: winning Best New Artist. This was at the start of
Speaker 1: the East Coast West Coast rivalry, and Andre threw down
Speaker 1: the gauntlet, declaring the South got something to say. Andrea
Speaker 1: and his partner Big Boy were the first Southern rappers
Speaker 1: to see the same sales success as any of their
Speaker 1: East or West Coast counterparts. In two thousand and three,
Speaker 1: They're double album speaker Box The Love Below was certified Diamond,
Speaker 1: meaning it sold over ten million copies and artistically that
Speaker 1: album remains one of the all time creative high water
Speaker 1: marks and music. But as you're about to hear, Andre
Speaker 1: is often haunted by his own legacy. He sat down
Speaker 1: for tea with Rick Rubin at Shangri La and talked
Speaker 1: about how fame crippled his creativity and why it's so
Speaker 1: hard for him to quiet the noise and make new music.
Speaker 1: The rap fan of me, the music, fan of me,
Speaker 1: the all things. Andre three thousand fan of me is
Speaker 1: absolutely in love with this episode, and I think you're
Speaker 1: gonna love it too. Enjoy. This is broken record line
Speaker 1: of notes for the digital age. I'm just a mission.
Speaker 1: Here's Rick Rubin with Andre three thousand from Shangri La.
Speaker 1: When you were starting to make music, what would have
Speaker 1: been the touchstone influences that got you'd want to actually
Speaker 1: make music. I'll have to say Tribe and Dark Powell
Speaker 1: snooping them and just it was when you at that
Speaker 1: point of discovery as a kid and seeing these new
Speaker 1: ways of doing things, these new ways of rapping, like
Speaker 1: the way how our glyphics were rapping at the time,
Speaker 1: it was completely new. Yeah, the phrasing was different, Yes,
Speaker 1: the ending of words, man Eminem. We sat on the
Speaker 1: phone about an hour talking about how our glyphics crew
Speaker 1: like how those words and we were trading Yeah, and
Speaker 1: like their lyrics on the phone, like do you remember man, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like they sparked so much. They opened up a new
Speaker 1: door for everybody, I think, and I think just to
Speaker 1: be around that time and to be like we we
Speaker 1: were out when Woo was out, We were out when
Speaker 1: Nas was out so but we're from the South, so
Speaker 1: it's kind of like we had to step up. Like
Speaker 1: I think that was the best blessing. I know, people
Speaker 1: look at the footage of us winning the Source Award
Speaker 1: and what I had to say on stage, like, oh
Speaker 1: that was it was messed up. They're bing boo. But
Speaker 1: I think that was the biggest blessing for us to
Speaker 1: have to have to just be better. Yeah, to have
Speaker 1: to fight and really prove that we were really in
Speaker 1: to what we were doing. And I could understand how
Speaker 1: they may have taken you know, first album is just
Speaker 1: you know, just just some Southern you know, riding around
Speaker 1: you know, Caliac smoking chick you know, smoking and eat
Speaker 1: chicken Wayans kind of stuff like that. But it made
Speaker 1: us have to be better because we were on the road.
Speaker 1: We're on the road where Red Man, we were opening
Speaker 1: up for these people, so we got that schooling, you know,
Speaker 1: so we had to become we had to become better.
Speaker 1: What's interesting about it too, is that you you did
Speaker 1: become better, but you didn't become at all like any
Speaker 1: of them. You know. It really was completely original, and
Speaker 1: I think that's the reason why it's still holds up
Speaker 1: to the test of time. Is I don't know anyone
Speaker 1: who's really made music sense like the music that you made.
Speaker 1: It's very unique. I would have to say that that
Speaker 1: is because of the dungeon, like the kind of our incubator,
Speaker 1: Like the dungeon was basically a house with us, you know,
Speaker 1: goody mob pa. We were all in a basement, drum machines,
Speaker 1: house speakers, you know, dirt, no no walls, actually dirt
Speaker 1: where the furnace and all that kind of stuff was.
Speaker 1: And that was a place where you you leave your job,
Speaker 1: leave school. You'd come down there and you might smoke,
Speaker 1: you might talk about issues. You but you rapping. So
Speaker 1: I'm trading versus. Could you go over that? Trade versus?
Speaker 1: Clow come trade versus. So it was at a certain
Speaker 1: point we started building our own slang, you know, so
Speaker 1: it became a world in itself. So we gained confidence
Speaker 1: in ourselves. You know, like when I say king shit,
Speaker 1: somebody else say king shit, we knew what that meant
Speaker 1: because we would talk that way around the dungeon. So
Speaker 1: a certain confidence and a certain building of our vocabulary
Speaker 1: and building of our own styles. It was like we
Speaker 1: were creating this own world. So by the time it
Speaker 1: hit every everybody else it may have sounded like something else,
Speaker 1: you know, but we were influenced by everything, and there
Speaker 1: were times where I sounded Souls of mischief e. You know,
Speaker 1: my very first rap that I remember writing out of
Speaker 1: high school, which sounded cute, tippish, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: because that's what I'm listening to. It makes sense, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Really found your own voice yet,
Speaker 1: but you but you developed your skill as a writer
Speaker 1: doing it like him, to find your way in yes,
Speaker 1: and then eventually it's like, oh, well that's more like him,
Speaker 1: and this other way it's more like me, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I originally was at a club in LA in this
Speaker 1: place where you know indie bands played like, you know,
Speaker 1: first few shows you've ever played. And I saw a
Speaker 1: band and I saw him perform, and they came and
Speaker 1: asked me what I thought after performance, and I said, man,
Speaker 1: you gotta keep keep going, you gotta keep doing it,
Speaker 1: because it's like, yeah, man, we've been trying to decide
Speaker 1: if we should wait till we get a deal before
Speaker 1: we do shows. I was like, no, no, because you're
Speaker 1: a training ground. Lets you know what you are, who
Speaker 1: you are of course you want to sound like everybody
Speaker 1: you love, but in the end you really don't. You
Speaker 1: know what I mean, You don't, but you don't. You
Speaker 1: don't get to that point until you've put it out
Speaker 1: there and you've heard yourself sound horrible or you've heard
Speaker 1: yourself sound exactly like something but not as good as
Speaker 1: what you love. Yes, it takes that time. So a
Speaker 1: lot of our proven ground. We're in the dungeon, you know.
Speaker 1: We didn't do it a lot of shows. To be honest,
Speaker 1: it was and it took me to that point. It
Speaker 1: took me a while to learn how to perform. Actually,
Speaker 1: I mean I could write. I was more of a writer,
Speaker 1: but even if you listen to the first album, I
Speaker 1: couldn't even nuncey to say my words, you know, like
Speaker 1: I wanted to, because those muscles weren't built, you know,
Speaker 1: and people I don't understand that. Performing even vocally, it
Speaker 1: is a muscle and you have to exercise it. And
Speaker 1: the more you exercise it, the stronger you get. The
Speaker 1: more you are in front of people, you know what works,
Speaker 1: what doesn't work, and you can play with that and
Speaker 1: bring it back into your writing, and you have more
Speaker 1: confidence in your writing so all all those building moments
Speaker 1: are important to find your your voice. Absolutely, and there's
Speaker 1: really no shortcuts. It's you just have to do the word.
Speaker 1: It's not and it's and it's hard, it's very it's
Speaker 1: very hard. That I remember times where Rico Rico Wade.
Speaker 1: There will be times where I would come down and
Speaker 1: I say, check this out, and I would bust a
Speaker 1: word for him, and he would just get up and
Speaker 1: walk away. I say anything, and I would like, fun
Speaker 1: wrong with him, you know what I mean, Like, damn,
Speaker 1: this kind of disrespect, you know what I mean. But
Speaker 1: it took me a minute to realize that, wouldn't it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And then I remember one time I maybe had smoke
Speaker 1: to joint and then winning the in the booth, and
Speaker 1: I was kind of out of it and I just
Speaker 1: started rapping with my normal voice, like my speaking voice,
Speaker 1: and we said that's it, and that was it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's amazing how those breakthroughs happen almost when you're not
Speaker 1: really looking, you know, like when you're not paying attention,
Speaker 1: something happens. You gotta move out the way, Yeah, but
Speaker 1: you gotta you gotta work for moving out the way too,
Speaker 1: You gotta you can't move out the way so far
Speaker 1: that nothing happens. Yeah, so you have to work hard
Speaker 1: and then wait for that moment. Was that there it is? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, be open to recognizing it when it happens. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but community, man, like, yeah, it's it's funny because and
Speaker 1: thank you for the opportunity to be on this on
Speaker 1: this podcast. But when I learned that I was coming,
Speaker 1: and you know, I learned that it was you and
Speaker 1: Malcolm's thing. I'd never read any of Malcolm's books, bought
Speaker 1: them and then I went on on the road and
Speaker 1: did something and I forgot to read them. So I
Speaker 1: was like, all right, I'll of respect, let me read,
Speaker 1: you know, at least read a book. And I don't
Speaker 1: read much. I actually don't, and so I read outlies
Speaker 1: and it, man, it blew my mind. It completely blew
Speaker 1: my mind. And it really made me think of the
Speaker 1: community that gives you opportunity to be all of this
Speaker 1: and that's what the dungeon. Yeah, and had there not
Speaker 1: been a dungeon, who knows what you would have done.
Speaker 1: You know, like it really and that wasn't anything that
Speaker 1: you decided to make happen. It's like so much of
Speaker 1: it is chance. It was, Yeah, like things just happened.
Speaker 1: The universe sets up a situation and something good happened,
Speaker 1: something comes out of it. I was just talking about
Speaker 1: that today earlier with my friend when I was going
Speaker 1: to college or decided between going at NYU and University Chicago,
Speaker 1: and had I gone to University Chicago, my whole life
Speaker 1: would have been different because hip hop was happening in
Speaker 1: New York and I happened to be there. But if
Speaker 1: I was somewhere else, I wouldn't have known what was
Speaker 1: going on there because I wouldn't have been in it. Yep.
Speaker 1: And that's just luck. You know that has it is?
Speaker 1: It's luck, it's chances. Maybe you were just supposed it
Speaker 1: was supposed to happen to you, And I believe in
Speaker 1: that as well. It's like it's like it's so much
Speaker 1: of it is out of our control, but but I'm
Speaker 1: always grateful when something good happens. You know. It's like
Speaker 1: I know I can't make it happen, but I know
Speaker 1: that I can be open to it happen. I'll invite
Speaker 1: it in and welcome it and do everything I can
Speaker 1: to best support this thing that arrives that I know
Speaker 1: is bigger than me. Yes, you know, it's magical. It
Speaker 1: really is. Magic really is. And it's the hardest part
Speaker 1: of that is when something bad happens and feeling the
Speaker 1: bad thing and remembering trying to separate ourselves from the
Speaker 1: thing that happened that didn't work out or didn't go
Speaker 1: the way we wanted it to go, and to say, Okay,
Speaker 1: imagine that's a scene in a movie, I can't wait
Speaker 1: to see what happens next, do you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: instead of just sinking into the vibe, because because it's
Speaker 1: the same, it's the same vibe of when the good
Speaker 1: thing happens, it's the same. It's like, good things happen,
Speaker 1: bad things happen. It's that's all part of life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And just sort of staying neutral and riding the wave.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm learning. I'm still learning that. You know.
Speaker 1: It's hard. It's hard riding you say it, riding that waves.
Speaker 1: It's hard because you dip down low. Sometimes you get stuck,
Speaker 1: you know, absolutely, especially if you're used to the wave
Speaker 1: going a certain way. Yes, you know, And I think
Speaker 1: that's when you have to kind of lay yourself down
Speaker 1: and kind of just let it be. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: And that's that's hard. It's hard for me. Yes, it's
Speaker 1: very hard for me. Yes, Well, you've been listening too
Speaker 1: lately instrumental music. I was just turned on to Steve Wright. Wow. Great,
Speaker 1: I just chest now, like and I'm like, what the
Speaker 1: hell have I been? Because I knew Philip Glass. I
Speaker 1: was always into Field Glass, but I never Then somebody said, well,
Speaker 1: if you like Philip Glass, you'll love Steve right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like what I heard. I was like, what, Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: been into a lot of a lot of instrumental music
Speaker 1: now because I'm I just had a point where I
Speaker 1: sometimes I figure, like a lot of lyrics just bombarding,
Speaker 1: you know. And I know it sounds crazy coming from
Speaker 1: a rap artist, but I think sometimes, you know, just
Speaker 1: sometimes the thoughts just just take over, you know, and
Speaker 1: then not necessarily anything you want to be a part of,
Speaker 1: you want to party and you know. But I kind
Speaker 1: of that I kind of like music that I can
Speaker 1: have my own thoughts too. Yes, you know, that's kind
Speaker 1: of where I've been lately. Beautiful. What's your process like
Speaker 1: making music these days? Do you do you make much?
Speaker 1: Not so much? How would you say? I haven't been
Speaker 1: making much music? Man? My my focus is not there,
Speaker 1: my confidence is not there. I tinker. I tinker a lot,
Speaker 1: Like I'll just go to a piano and I'll set
Speaker 1: my iPhone down and just record what I'm doing, move
Speaker 1: my fingers around and whatever happens. But I hadn't been
Speaker 1: motivated to do a serious project. I'd like to, but
Speaker 1: it's just it's just not coming in my in my
Speaker 1: own self, I'm trying to figure out where do I
Speaker 1: Where do I Where do I sit? And you know,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't even know what I am And
Speaker 1: maybe I'm nothing. Maybe I'm not supposed to be anything.
Speaker 1: Maybe you know, my history is kind of handicapping in
Speaker 1: a way. And so I'm just trying to find out
Speaker 1: what makes me feel the best right now. And what
Speaker 1: makes you feel the best is when I just do
Speaker 1: these random, kind of instrumental kind of things. You know,
Speaker 1: they make me feel that, they make me feel the
Speaker 1: most rebellious. Yes, you know, I don't know. I have
Speaker 1: a really rebellious but I don't like to go with
Speaker 1: the flow. Really, I don't know why. Yes, but I
Speaker 1: just feel best when I don't. Yes, you know, So
Speaker 1: I have to honor that, understand, I have to honor
Speaker 1: that in a way, you know, Oh for sure, for sure.
Speaker 1: I think so much of it isn't to be decided,
Speaker 1: do you know what I'm saying. It's not. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's to be figured out. I think it's more
Speaker 1: to be I think you make a lot of you
Speaker 1: start making a lot of things with no thinking of
Speaker 1: what it's supposed to be or who's it for, what
Speaker 1: anyone else is going to think. But just get in
Speaker 1: the habit of making a lot. That's what I gotta
Speaker 1: get back to me. Yeah, just make a lot. And
Speaker 1: then at some point in that process you'd be like,
Speaker 1: m I really like this. It didn't and you didn't know,
Speaker 1: like through through that whole process, you don't know when
Speaker 1: that's going to happen. Yeah, And it's not. It's not
Speaker 1: a decision you make. And it's not an intellectual idea
Speaker 1: where I have a vision and I'm going to make
Speaker 1: this thing. It doesn't. It doesn't happen like there rarely
Speaker 1: happens like that. It happens more just having fun making things.
Speaker 1: No no stakes, you know, there's no nothing's on the
Speaker 1: line to see. That's that's that's I'm got to say.
Speaker 1: That's hard to do when everything is actually I mean
Speaker 1: when the problem with being an artist, a successful artist, yes,
Speaker 1: is you have to find a comfortable place to do
Speaker 1: that again, Yes, but think about they come to place
Speaker 1: to feel uncomfortable with what I'm saying. But the way
Speaker 1: that you made the stuff that ended up being successful
Speaker 1: wasn't made from a place of feeling any responsibility, right
Speaker 1: because it because the attention wasn't there at all yet
Speaker 1: in a way, you know, And it's kind of like
Speaker 1: you were still proving yourself. And it's so I liken
Speaker 1: it to like if you're a kid and you're in
Speaker 1: your room, you're plan you know, with with toys and
Speaker 1: you hops, and you you have this world going on. Yes,
Speaker 1: the moment when your mom opens the door and says Andre,
Speaker 1: that world kind of stops. Yes, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So once the attention is on that world, that the
Speaker 1: world goes away. So you got to find a way
Speaker 1: to get back to that place to where you can
Speaker 1: build those worlds again and not have the eyes or
Speaker 1: like the judge, you know. And that's that's a that's
Speaker 1: that's hard for me. It's really hard for me because
Speaker 1: and I mean you see it everywhere now, any little
Speaker 1: thing I put out is instantly like attacked, not not
Speaker 1: in a good or a bad way. Well well I'm
Speaker 1: saying the the yeah, and people nitpick it like with
Speaker 1: fine tooth comb, like oh he said that word, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? And that's that's not a great
Speaker 1: place to to create from, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And it makes you it makes you draw back, and
Speaker 1: then maybe I don't have the confidence that I want
Speaker 1: or the space to experiment like I used to. When
Speaker 1: the stuff that people love from back then, it was
Speaker 1: in a place you would free. Yeah, you free. You
Speaker 1: didn't give a shit, you didn't care like because they didn't.
Speaker 1: They didn't care. They ain't even like you. No, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. So it's like, great, don't like
Speaker 1: what we're doing. Now we can just do what we're doing.
Speaker 1: But the same holds true now. So now you can
Speaker 1: make stuff that you as long as you like it.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if they like it or not because
Speaker 1: they hated you back then. It's the same. It's the same,
Speaker 1: do you know what I'm saying. The only thing that's
Speaker 1: changed is your point of view. Really, yes, nothing else
Speaker 1: has changed, and that's that is within your control. You
Speaker 1: can you can you can decide to read what someone
Speaker 1: else says or give them that power, or you can
Speaker 1: say they can think what they want and you Usually
Speaker 1: here's another part of it. This is very interesting when
Speaker 1: someone is critical of something you do, usually that's more
Speaker 1: about them than it is about you. Do you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. It's like it's a that's what they
Speaker 1: see because of who they are. It has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with you, right, do you know what I'm saying? Well,
Speaker 1: that's that brings to another point because I've noticed that
Speaker 1: I'm very judgmental at this point of my own self.
Speaker 1: So as that's saying that I'm just in a not
Speaker 1: so great play, yes, you know, yeah, and I and
Speaker 1: I feel that I feel very judgmental and I hate it,
Speaker 1: like I don't want to be judgmental. It's almost like
Speaker 1: being a movie director but not being able to go
Speaker 1: to the movie theater and see movies on Friday like
Speaker 1: you used to, because you're judging every shot. Yes, you're
Speaker 1: judging every light lighting situation. You're like, oh man, they
Speaker 1: adr that one up. You know. It's it's kind of
Speaker 1: like how do you get away from that? Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: almost like you know too much. Yes, yes, yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: you know too much. And I think as you go along,
Speaker 1: you just got to find a way to break free
Speaker 1: of everything you know. And that's very hard. That's very hard,
Speaker 1: even even melody wise, like I'm getting sick of my
Speaker 1: melodies because they're all they seem like they're tied to
Speaker 1: something that I know, or so I try to just
Speaker 1: throw notes anywhere just to try. Yeah. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: think that's that rebellious kind of unrespirit, that turn left
Speaker 1: spirit when everybody's going this way because you're looking for
Speaker 1: something else. But it's it's very it's very hard when
Speaker 1: you've been doing it for so long. Understood it's very hard.
Speaker 1: But moving forward to try to help work through this stuff,
Speaker 1: make something to where you're happy you made it. That's
Speaker 1: all like something you'd be happy to play for your friend.
Speaker 1: That would be the ultimate. That's the ultimate. I mean
Speaker 1: for me, if I make something, I'm excited to play
Speaker 1: it for my friend. That's it. Yeah, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. That's that's what I've that's what I've been
Speaker 1: doing lately. That's it. That's that's that's the whole mission. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll be back with under three thousand after the break,
Speaker 1: we're back with more of under three thousand. Growing up,
Speaker 1: would you say you were hard on yourself or yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure. I think especially as a kid when you're
Speaker 1: trying to fit in or trying to figure out what
Speaker 1: you are, Like am I cool like that? Or do
Speaker 1: I want to be hanging with these people? Or do
Speaker 1: what do they think of me? Or oh man, it's
Speaker 1: this girl? Does she really like me? Or you know,
Speaker 1: am I cool enough for it? Like all of those
Speaker 1: things that most kids go through. You get it, but
Speaker 1: I think I think I think I did do it
Speaker 1: a little bit more. And maybe because isolation and I
Speaker 1: think when you're alone a lot you contemplate, yes, and
Speaker 1: when you have a lot of time to contemplate, sometimes
Speaker 1: it's not good. Yeah, you know. And so that's when
Speaker 1: I said, like if I had brothers and sisters, yeah,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have to worry about certain things with social
Speaker 1: anxieties order like I was diagnosed years ago and hypersensitivity
Speaker 1: like with that kind of thing, isolation is not good.
Speaker 1: But I feel most comfortable being isolated. So I spend
Speaker 1: ninety five percent of my time by myself, yes, you know,
Speaker 1: and that that gives you time to analyze, and the
Speaker 1: brain loves to find problems absolutely even if they're not there, absolutely,
Speaker 1: and so the judgment will kind of analyzing. It's kind
Speaker 1: of running book. Yeah, so you have to find ways
Speaker 1: to break out of that kind of thing. And but
Speaker 1: the other side of it is it's that same hypersensitivity
Speaker 1: that makes you a great artist. You know. It's like therapist,
Speaker 1: my therapist, the same thing. It's the truth. It's the truth.
Speaker 1: It's it's like it's a blessing and a curse. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's harder to be in the world, but that's the gift,
Speaker 1: and it's I know, it's it's man, it's there have
Speaker 1: been times where I would like I've prayed, like prayed
Speaker 1: to a god that I didn't even know it existed. Really, yes,
Speaker 1: pray like I would rather you take this away from me,
Speaker 1: all of this, and just if I could just feel
Speaker 1: normal like that, if I could just feel normal, like
Speaker 1: take voice, career, all that shit, you can have it,
Speaker 1: if I could feel normal. Yes, But it don't work
Speaker 1: like that. No, I just don't. It's really sad. But
Speaker 1: that's why a lot of artists o D. That's why
Speaker 1: young artists die from drugs, is they're sensitive people. There's
Speaker 1: all especially in success, there's all this emotion that no
Speaker 1: one teaches us how to deal with. No, and it's weird.
Speaker 1: Even people that you know for a long time start
Speaker 1: acting different to you. Yes, and you start acting different
Speaker 1: because they start at it's it's weird. It's the whole
Speaker 1: the whole thing's unnatural. No one teaches you how to
Speaker 1: deal with it, and it's it's crazy. It's a crazy
Speaker 1: it's it make it's a crazy making process. Yes, and yes,
Speaker 1: and so people do stuff to try to just numb
Speaker 1: that pain. Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it
Speaker 1: makes sense. It's self medication. You know. It's like I
Speaker 1: just don't want to feel everything all the time. I understand. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you got it. You got Well, we're we're aliking many ways. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and even a lot of people in the world too,
Speaker 1: I'm finding you know, you know, it's I think we
Speaker 1: do get it differently because of the career we've chosen
Speaker 1: or that chose us. But they're when researching you know,
Speaker 1: this condition, there are kids that have it. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: are kids that just don't know how to how to
Speaker 1: deal in the world. Yes, in that way, you know, Yes,
Speaker 1: and especially if your parents aren't as sensitive as you are.
Speaker 1: Then it's really confusing. It's there, it's like they're the adults.
Speaker 1: They're supposed to know everything. Yeah, and they don't even
Speaker 1: see this stuff that's happening. Yeah, and you can't explain it. No,
Speaker 1: they don't want under They're just like, oh, why do
Speaker 1: you think? Why? Why are you thinking about that? And
Speaker 1: then I mean, I'm talking about the last fifteen twenty years.
Speaker 1: I mean we're just now starting to get titles for
Speaker 1: this stuff, you know, names that you call it. What
Speaker 1: about the people that didn't have the names for it
Speaker 1: back then, like or didn't have medicine for it? Absolutely,
Speaker 1: what do you do? Yeah, you know you can't sit
Speaker 1: and have a conversation. Yeah, there's a social anxiety think
Speaker 1: what Yeah, that wouldn't even invent it. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: we first started rapping none of those words will now
Speaker 1: by polarism and you know, all that kind of stuff
Speaker 1: is like it's almost like commonplace now yea. If someone
Speaker 1: says I have anxiety, it's like, oh, okay, just go
Speaker 1: take a nap. That's kind of what it's like now,
Speaker 1: you know, because it's so common. Yeah, but it's it's
Speaker 1: and it may have always been just no one knew right,
Speaker 1: like you see, and people didn't want to look at
Speaker 1: it or talk about it. And now people are more open, luckily,
Speaker 1: because it's really because it's helpful to others feeling it.
Speaker 1: We're not alone, yep, you know, it's so helpful to
Speaker 1: know that I'm not the only person who feels this
Speaker 1: way all the time. Yeah. It doesn't make it easier, no,
Speaker 1: but but it's a little better. It's a little just
Speaker 1: to be understood, that's it. Yeah. But here's another thing.
Speaker 1: A friend of mine pointed out that when we talk
Speaker 1: about isolation and certain societies, they don't have these things
Speaker 1: like when you're like if it's not a chemical thing,
Speaker 1: if it's a social thing, Like if you're in a
Speaker 1: house with ten other people your family and you're all surviving,
Speaker 1: you don't have time to have that yes, and you're
Speaker 1: faced you you're faced with these people, so you don't
Speaker 1: have a kind of like the social kind of dwarfing.
Speaker 1: And that's interesting to me, you know. And also the
Speaker 1: success part of it is a key piece of it too,
Speaker 1: because when you're when you suffer from depression, let's say,
Speaker 1: and you feel like there's this whole in you. You
Speaker 1: don't know what it is. You just know you feel bad,
Speaker 1: but you have this dream I'm gonna I'm gonna through music.
Speaker 1: I see these people doing this, and I love this.
Speaker 1: And if when I do that, the hole's going to
Speaker 1: go away. Yeah, oh no, it's that. But but at
Speaker 1: least during that time you have hope because you know,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna work really hard because I want to feel
Speaker 1: better than I feel now. And you do all this work,
Speaker 1: and that hole is the thing that allows you to
Speaker 1: have that drive and perspective to break through. And then
Speaker 1: you break through and your dreams come true, and the
Speaker 1: hole is exactly the same, yes, and then your hope
Speaker 1: it actually it works up a little bit more absolutely
Speaker 1: because now now what I was spending all my time
Speaker 1: to my way of solving it, I did it, and
Speaker 1: it didn't work at all. If anything, as you said,
Speaker 1: maybe it's worse. I can remember it's funny, and I'll
Speaker 1: only remember this because they're happy to be a phone call.
Speaker 1: If it wasn't for this phone call, I would not
Speaker 1: remember this story. But I had produced the first Beastie
Speaker 1: Boys album. It came out and it was It became
Speaker 1: the number one album in the country. And I remember
Speaker 1: my music lawyer calling me and he said, you have
Speaker 1: the number one album and in the country. How do
Speaker 1: you feel? And I said, I've never fret worse in
Speaker 1: my whole life. Yeah, And it had that call not happened,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't remember. I wouldn't remember how I felt. But
Speaker 1: in that moment, because of the call, that's how I
Speaker 1: was feeling terrible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's yeah. And people
Speaker 1: would think that that's the that's the best thing, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the best thing to hear. But it has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with it. It's like that's the other thing is
Speaker 1: like it's a it's like a false until it happens,
Speaker 1: you don't know. Because we're hopeful, you know, something's going
Speaker 1: to make it better. If a dream comes true, that's
Speaker 1: gonna make it better. Nope, or just to get the
Speaker 1: acceptance you think that this will get. You will get love,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, But you also get everything
Speaker 1: else that comes with it too, absolutely absolutely. Yeah. In
Speaker 1: a way, in success, it's more isolating, very more lonely
Speaker 1: making and less community. And like we said, people treat
Speaker 1: you differently, and it's hard to have regular conversation, not
Speaker 1: because you don't want to it just it's like the
Speaker 1: surrounding the whole world has changed. It's a bad plight. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The more, the more, the more higher you climb, the
Speaker 1: more success that you have, you become more and more isolated.
Speaker 1: You spend more times in hotels. Yeah, you spend less
Speaker 1: time around people. Yes, and your writing kind of goes
Speaker 1: to ship too. Yeah when that starts to happen too,
Speaker 1: because your life becomes about being on Yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: not really interesting to talk about. Yeah. And another one
Speaker 1: like once you're like I'm sad, you know, because I'm
Speaker 1: successful alone and hear that ship no, or back on
Speaker 1: the road again, like yeah, being on the bends who
Speaker 1: just would tour forever? And all the songs were about
Speaker 1: being on the road because that's all they had to
Speaker 1: talk about. Yeah, and that and I don't I don't
Speaker 1: like it, man. So you know, I try to. I
Speaker 1: try to do things and I really get enjoyment. Like
Speaker 1: I don't have bodyguards. Man, I'm my only child, so
Speaker 1: I go everywhere by myself. You know. I actually love
Speaker 1: to go to the laundromat and wash clothes like I
Speaker 1: love that, man, Like I love being in as much
Speaker 1: in the most normal place I can be yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: because even if it's I mean, I could buy washing
Speaker 1: and dry and wash it at home, but it's something
Speaker 1: about going to the laundromat and sitting social. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: is social, you know what I mean. Absolutely, it's something.
Speaker 1: It's something about it. There's some I don't know, you
Speaker 1: may know it. There's some blues artists that I think
Speaker 1: he wrote a lyric that the song kind of story
Speaker 1: went that he had gotten successful and now he's going
Speaker 1: to have to hire a woman to break his heart
Speaker 1: to be able to write blue songs, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. It's kind of like and that's a weird
Speaker 1: place to be, yeah, you know. And that's why I
Speaker 1: love new artists. That's why I love going to these
Speaker 1: ship clubs and watching fands because I remember that feeling
Speaker 1: like and I know what it feels like to not
Speaker 1: be known and when you're fighting to be known, yes,
Speaker 1: and when you're doing it because you just love it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a different that's a different things, and that it's
Speaker 1: not it's not. Nobody at those clubs are punching the
Speaker 1: clock trying to get it done. Mmm. They gotta get
Speaker 1: up in the morning and go to their real work.
Speaker 1: And when you think about it, that when when that
Speaker 1: cycle of being on the road all the time, when
Speaker 1: that turns into a job. It's a grueling job, yeah,
Speaker 1: it is, especially all the travel, flying. It's it's exhausting,
Speaker 1: it's lonely, and all of it is for this, like
Speaker 1: you know, an hour or two or and it's kind
Speaker 1: of exciting because people like it. But even that, when
Speaker 1: you've done the same thing for a while, starts feeling
Speaker 1: like what am I doing? Yeah? I did this last night. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I knew it became a problem for me, like years
Speaker 1: years ago. I mean this had to be like fifteen
Speaker 1: twenty years ago. I was on stage doing something, some song.
Speaker 1: I don't remember what it was, but I've done it
Speaker 1: so much that it was kind of just in my
Speaker 1: scan and I'm you know, going through it and I'm
Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, but I was thinking about what am
Speaker 1: I going to eat tonight, get back to the hotel,
Speaker 1: and I and that thought. Yeah, it freaked me out
Speaker 1: because it was like I was on overdrive, yeah, but
Speaker 1: I was somewhere else, yeah, autopilot. Yeah, it was just
Speaker 1: going on yeah yeah yeah yeah. And at that point,
Speaker 1: I think you just as the artist, I mean of
Speaker 1: course you have responsibilities you gotta do. But you gotta
Speaker 1: find a way to shake yourself up. You gotta find
Speaker 1: a way to change it. And I hadn't toured in
Speaker 1: ages man like, and I said, if I ever were
Speaker 1: to get on stage again in that kind of way,
Speaker 1: like it would be in the shittiest clubs ever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it would be like like I want to
Speaker 1: perform at all the flea markets around the world, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like, yeah, like it's just just
Speaker 1: to feel something different. Yeah. Another thing too. The more
Speaker 1: success you have, too, seems like the further the crowd
Speaker 1: gets from you. Absolutely, so by the time you get
Speaker 1: the festivals, yeah, they are twenty feet back. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: can't even touch nobody. No, you can't, and you can't
Speaker 1: like even see really faces lights on you, and it's
Speaker 1: just sort of like a mass of people. It's like
Speaker 1: they talk about that. It's like if if one person
Speaker 1: gets in an accident gets killed, you really feel it
Speaker 1: because of the personality the person. But when you read
Speaker 1: you know that ten thousand people just died because of
Speaker 1: an earthquake, it's different because it it becomes faithless. The
Speaker 1: more the more people, the more faithless it becomes and
Speaker 1: you don't have that connection. It's not that one person
Speaker 1: in the front row. Yeah. Yeah, it's going good. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: that exchange. Yeah. We'll be back with more Rix Conversation
Speaker 1: with Andre after the break. We're back with more RIX
Speaker 1: Conversation with Andre. Three thousand. What type of meditation practice
Speaker 1: do you do? None. I started messing around with bay clarinet,
Speaker 1: and it's a breathing kind of thing, you know, and
Speaker 1: so I would hope to My goal is to learn
Speaker 1: how to so that I can get my practice in
Speaker 1: every day, to incorporate practicing and meditation, like with the
Speaker 1: breathing in some kind of way, to make it one
Speaker 1: kind of thing, you know, so you know, I start
Speaker 1: my day that way. Beautiful. How did you pick that instrument?
Speaker 1: I was messing around with saxophone a little bit because
Speaker 1: listening to John cold Tran, So one day I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of one of those let me well, let
Speaker 1: me just try it, let me just pick it up
Speaker 1: kind of person. Yeah. So I didn't get lessons to anything.
Speaker 1: I just I immediately had an armature that worked and
Speaker 1: so I could get sound out of it. And then
Speaker 1: that moved me, and then I read the Cold Train
Speaker 1: played clarinet first before he played saxophone, and so that
Speaker 1: made me try clarinet. And so I had the normal
Speaker 1: B flat clarinet. And one day it was in New
Speaker 1: York on tour or something, and I went into this
Speaker 1: used instrument shop and I saw a bass clarinet, US
Speaker 1: bass clarinet, and I just got it. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: never I never went back to the normal clarinet. The
Speaker 1: bass clarinet is where it sat for me, like the
Speaker 1: deep tones, like I feel those tones, you know. And
Speaker 1: I'm in a place where I've never been disciplined with anything,
Speaker 1: and that's one of my biggest issues. I've always kind
Speaker 1: of just been so wired and just trying everything that
Speaker 1: I've never been great at anything. That it's important for
Speaker 1: me to try to really really dedicate myself to something,
Speaker 1: to lessons now. So I'm trying to take a little
Speaker 1: bit more seriously. YEA, not for any goal anything, just
Speaker 1: to yeah, to practice and to be able to play
Speaker 1: whatever here basically play whatever I wanna whatever, Yeah, play
Speaker 1: whatever I'm hearing in my head, or really to play
Speaker 1: along with anything. That's one of my biggest goals to
Speaker 1: be able to if someone's in a park, singing something
Speaker 1: I can just come on in and just mess around. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's those are like my biggest goals now. Our friend
Speaker 1: of mine was laughing at me because I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, with with the history of what we've done
Speaker 1: so far, my goals are not grand at all anymore.
Speaker 1: My goals are like, I want to be able to
Speaker 1: go to a park and just play. Yeah, I do
Speaker 1: it sometimes, and I go to the beach sometimes, just play,
Speaker 1: go to a park. I'm not great, but yeah, I
Speaker 1: want to be able to to soothe, you know, I
Speaker 1: want to be able to just kind of serenade or
Speaker 1: soothe by playing beautiful who who's ever around? You know,
Speaker 1: beautiful m It felt like there was another influence in
Speaker 1: your in your old work that wasn't coming from hip hop.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, most of my influences early, so you have
Speaker 1: to you have to like with with outcasts. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like even before we had our first album, I
Speaker 1: remember there were times in the Dungeon like big shit,
Speaker 1: let's paint our faces man, and just let's do like
Speaker 1: this kind of rockish kind of sound that's not hip
Speaker 1: hop at all, and then we go du rap. Like
Speaker 1: it was always searching for other things. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think that comes from the community once again, like because
Speaker 1: Dallas Austin was doing alternative things. Yeah, Joy had came
Speaker 1: into town, she was doing alternative things, like she had
Speaker 1: brought the circus in the town, and so all those
Speaker 1: influences and we were we were kids, so we got
Speaker 1: we we actually got to see Kurt Cobain perform on
Speaker 1: TV like we were kids. But yeah, and I think, uh,
Speaker 1: and influences so much in a certain way. So those
Speaker 1: those acts were really really really like influence, even like
Speaker 1: Raging as a machine, like I wouldn't have I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have done bombs with a back that if it wasn't
Speaker 1: for Raging inst a machine. Wow, Because I felt urgency
Speaker 1: in their music. So I was like, how can I
Speaker 1: add urgency to what we're doing? Yes, it doesn't sound
Speaker 1: like rage against the machine, no, but energetically yes yes.
Speaker 1: So you could playing back to back at the party
Speaker 1: and the same dancing would continue. It was it's the energy. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I tell any musician, you know, when I meet
Speaker 1: people on the street, like well, what advice could could
Speaker 1: you give me? I was like, well, you have all
Speaker 1: the answers, like you you have it the only thing
Speaker 1: I could say is listen to everything outside of your genre. Yes,
Speaker 1: a lot of times it'll help your genre. Yes, you
Speaker 1: know in some type of way. You know, because if
Speaker 1: everybody's kind of just listen to the exact same thing,
Speaker 1: it kind of gets like incession was a little maybe
Speaker 1: you know, but you get it gets more. Say though, yes,
Speaker 1: this is the way to it's those combinations that make
Speaker 1: it new. Yeah. Yeah, But the beauty of it is
Speaker 1: is the new could be made by anybody, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, It doesn't. You don't have to be
Speaker 1: new to make new. That's a good argument, it's true,
Speaker 1: because it's really more about it's the sensibility, you know,
Speaker 1: Like when Radiohead made kid A that was new Radiohead.
Speaker 1: Radiohead transformed from the band that they were, And when
Speaker 1: I first heard it, I loved Radiohead, and when I
Speaker 1: first heard it, I was little taken aback. The same
Speaker 1: thing happened first time I heard eight O eights. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like, I don't do I want to hear Kanye singing?
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like this is not why I listened
Speaker 1: to Kanye. And it took a minute. And often those
Speaker 1: are the things that you come around to liking the best.
Speaker 1: It's like when the first time you hear it's like
Speaker 1: you don't necessarily have the the framework understand, especially if
Speaker 1: you're expecting something different. So that's oh so that's a
Speaker 1: that's an important point because with the new artists, you're
Speaker 1: not expecting anything, so there's no expectation, right, So when
Speaker 1: someone that you like what they do makes a left turn,
Speaker 1: sometimes that's really jarring. Yes, yeah, I'm familiar man some people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but then it takes a minute and you realize, oh,
Speaker 1: like in both of those cases. Now, when I listen
Speaker 1: back today and it oates or two of my favorites,
Speaker 1: but maybe not the first time I heard them, Yeah,
Speaker 1: take a minute. Absolutely. When we were making Needs, it's
Speaker 1: a lot of I knew a lot of people were
Speaker 1: not gonna like it, but we loved it, and I
Speaker 1: knew that probably people come around because it's really good.
Speaker 1: It's just not what they're expecting, right, And when you
Speaker 1: give someone something that they're not expecting, that the first
Speaker 1: instinct is that's not what I wanted. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 1: You say you don't have to be new to make new.
Speaker 1: I agree, Yeah, you know, because I've been making music
Speaker 1: for a long time. I've learned a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: along the way. But I don't let that get in
Speaker 1: the way. I don't let that impede the process of
Speaker 1: making something new. Right. Are there any examples of like
Speaker 1: bands or groups that have made new when they've been
Speaker 1: around for a long time, Yes, and not not in
Speaker 1: your kid was the first one that I thought of.
Speaker 1: But but they but that was still a trajectory of
Speaker 1: it was the band, but it was they were the
Speaker 1: bends was incredible. Okay Computer was you know, considered, They're
Speaker 1: like that's there, but it was going that way, or
Speaker 1: even with Okay Computer, it was going that way, but
Speaker 1: kid A was not continuing that. It was just left
Speaker 1: turn and a lot of people didn't like it, me
Speaker 1: included at first first time I heard it. Then they
Speaker 1: were on Saturday Night Live and asked one performed some
Speaker 1: of those songs live, and then was my first cruise like,
Speaker 1: oh I see what this is now? Like I couldn't
Speaker 1: really get it from the record at first, and then
Speaker 1: when I saw that, it helped me bridge my expectation
Speaker 1: versus this beautiful new thing. Yeah, I struggle with that. Man,
Speaker 1: I struggle with the same too. You remember, like Paul
Speaker 1: Simon was already Paul Simon. He had been Simon and
Speaker 1: Garfuncle and made a load of hits as Paul Simon. Yeah,
Speaker 1: some might have thought he was sort of on the
Speaker 1: down swing, and then he made Graceland and that was
Speaker 1: one of his biggest albums. And in the case of
Speaker 1: we were talking about the Beatles earlier, Sergeant Pepper, that
Speaker 1: was the case. The reason it's called Sergeant Pepper's Lonely
Speaker 1: Hearts Club Band was I think it was Paul who
Speaker 1: had the idea of the Beatles are so big and
Speaker 1: so familiar, to make something new. Let's become a different band,
Speaker 1: and let's let's play the characters of Sergeant Pepper and
Speaker 1: his Lonely Hearts called band. What do they sound like?
Speaker 1: And now we're free? And it's just and it's both,
Speaker 1: and it was both even for them as writers. It
Speaker 1: was a way just to stimulate, stimulate writing. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: an exercise sometimes I give artists to do is to
Speaker 1: and this might be a fun one for you, is
Speaker 1: pick an artist, pick one of your favorite artists, could
Speaker 1: be whoever it is, could be Prince, could be whoever.
Speaker 1: And let's say you had a chance for to write
Speaker 1: a song for Prince to do, and write a song
Speaker 1: with the idea of this is a song I'm gonna
Speaker 1: get Prince to sing, yeah, because it would be completely
Speaker 1: different than what you'd write for yourself. Yeah, No, exactly
Speaker 1: the song Prototype, I actually wrote it in mind for
Speaker 1: Janet Jackson to sing. I wanted to just submit for
Speaker 1: her to sing that song. She probably don't even know it,
Speaker 1: but Prototype was written in that way. And once I
Speaker 1: lay down, you know, Demo, it's like, uh, it feels better.
Speaker 1: It feels really you know if I did it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and another song She's alive on the Love Below, like
Speaker 1: I really wanted to need a Baker to sing it, yea.
Speaker 1: And so it's my bad version of a need a Bakery.
Speaker 1: And I know it doesn't sound like it, but that's
Speaker 1: kind of That's kind of how how it is. This
Speaker 1: is one of those conversations I could have gone on forever,
Speaker 1: and in fact it did. Rick and Andre continued talking
Speaker 1: about how Andre played the flute for random Starbucks customers
Speaker 1: before the interview, about mystical experiences, their shared love of
Speaker 1: James Blake, and so much more. But this is where
Speaker 1: we'll have to leave it for now. Are sin serious?
Speaker 1: Thanks to Andrew two thousand for his music and his words.
Speaker 1: We'll be back on Thursday with an episode from Brittany
Speaker 1: Howard of the Alabama Shakes, and then Broken Record is
Speaker 1: going on a short hiatus, but when we back up
Speaker 1: in January with episodes of the podcast, and I'm really
Speaker 1: excited to share Ozzy Osbourne, was Sharon Bob Were, Kenny Beats,
Speaker 1: Booker TV and Gez Nick Lowe, The XX and more
Speaker 1: for now. If you'd like to hear a curate in
Speaker 1: playlist of Andre's music or any of our other past shows,
Speaker 1: check us out at Broken Record podcast dot com. You
Speaker 1: can also sign up for a behind the scenes newsletter
Speaker 1: while are you there. Broken Records producing help from Jason Gambrel,
Speaker 1: Neil Lobell, and Lea Rose for Pushkin Industries. Our theme
Speaker 1: music is by the great producer Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.