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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm great, Paul, how are you?

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Speaker 2: It's kind of halloweeny, it's looking very halloween on your

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Speaker 2: side there.

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Speaker 1: Well, you see my buddy over here? Wait, yeah, right direction, Ye,

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Speaker 1: my buddy back here. And I was just choking to

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Speaker 1: one of my kids that they said, how did he die?

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Speaker 1: And I said, waiting to see if that Victorian era

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Speaker 1: chair is ever going to get comfortable? And this is

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Speaker 1: the result. They are not comfortable, and I'm sitting in

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Speaker 1: one right now. But my poor guy back there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we had a we had an anatomically correct skeleton

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Speaker 2: when I was first started out with the Sheriff's crime

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Speaker 2: lab back in the day, had been there forever, and

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Speaker 2: of course his name was Sherlock Bones, you know. And

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Speaker 2: every now and then we'll get dressed up around Halloween,

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Speaker 2: so it's kind of neat.

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Speaker 1: Oh good, and you have we we've talked about this

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Speaker 1: probably four years in a row. But you know, your

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Speaker 1: kids did Halloween and now you guys don't do a

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Speaker 1: lot right now.

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Speaker 2: We will throw up some decorations, you know, like we've

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Speaker 2: got some stuff out because we do get some kids

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Speaker 2: in the neighborhood that will come. But obviously with the

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Speaker 2: small kids, we don't do anything gory or over the top.

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Speaker 2: It's more of the you know, just kind of a

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Speaker 2: little spooky and keep things relatively tame for the little kids.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so did we do I did warn you you

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Speaker 1: know that I am planning to upgrade my cottage for

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Speaker 1: the next couple of episodes because it is Halloween time.

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Speaker 1: Did you do anything spooky in your man cave slash

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Speaker 1: manly library. I don't know how to describe your space

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Speaker 1: right now.

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Speaker 2: No, Well, I've got a couple of Easter eggs. I

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Speaker 2: have this book over here bones, oh and you know

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Speaker 2: kind of matching you know, your skeleton over there, and

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Speaker 2: you know this book it's by doctor A Douglas Uberlaker

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Speaker 2: who's with the Smithsonian Institute, and he's a quite a

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Speaker 2: famous anthropologist. And in fact, I sent him a skull

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Speaker 2: back in the day that I had recovered from a backyard.

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Speaker 2: And you know, the skull came back it looked like

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Speaker 2: it had been used in some occult related activities, with

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Speaker 2: some paint and some some sooting on it, like it

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Speaker 2: had been over a fire. And the skull came back

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Speaker 2: to a young girl. Per his assessment. Oh no, now

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Speaker 2: we don't know, you know, if this is you know,

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Speaker 2: somebody that is more of a modern al skull, if

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Speaker 2: this was a war souvenir, because we didn't get much

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Speaker 2: kind of the racial information. It's indicating that maybe, you know,

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Speaker 2: somebody from Vietnam war brought this back from overseas or Korea.

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Speaker 2: Don't know that at this point, but that was that

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Speaker 2: was surprising, you know. I was like, oh, you know,

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Speaker 2: and to this day, I don't know if this this

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Speaker 2: skull has been identified and if my former corner's office

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Speaker 2: has even attempted.

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Speaker 1: It was he able to date it. I mean, how

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Speaker 1: without how many years is it?

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Speaker 2: Do we know? No? You know, there was inside the

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Speaker 2: skull was a fragment of a newspaper. It looked like

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Speaker 2: a rat had probably made a nest inside the skull,

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Speaker 2: and it brought that newspaper in. And I, if I

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Speaker 2: remember correctly, there was a nineteen eighty two date on

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Speaker 2: this fragment of newspaper. So it predates that for sure,

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Speaker 2: you know, but you know, who knows? And that's just

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Speaker 2: one of those those things. Is like this eternal mystery

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Speaker 2: for me is like, well did we identify her? And

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Speaker 2: I will say with you know, the genetic genealogy being

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Speaker 2: done on human remains, like what my employer author is

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Speaker 2: doing day in and day out, we're finding that the

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Speaker 2: anthropologists aren't necessarily right in terms of you know, identifying gender,

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Speaker 2: identifying race based off of the physical features of the bones.

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Speaker 2: And so the DNA has really proven to be much

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Speaker 2: more robust to get, you know, the real answer as

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Speaker 2: to who this person was. And of course we can

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Speaker 2: use genealogy to identify who the person was.

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Speaker 1: You need to give the corners off as a call

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Speaker 1: in I know, where you were on that case. It's fascinating.

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Speaker 2: I need to harass the coroner's office.

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Speaker 1: Yes, well, I mean that's just amazing. And then of

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Speaker 1: course you would follow that up with now we're supposed

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Speaker 1: to be talking about light things that we're talking about

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Speaker 1: a case, but you would follow that up with once

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Speaker 1: we figure out where she lived, looking for missing person

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Speaker 1: reports from that time period and all of that stuff, right,

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Speaker 1: then you have to do the regular detective work.

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Speaker 2: Right and and that's just you know, as we've talked

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Speaker 2: about in the past, when you have an unidentified person, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, where do you start? And particularly with just

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Speaker 2: a skull, you can't even say this is a homicide.

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Speaker 2: That's the complexity. But once that skull is identified, if

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Speaker 2: it ever is identified, then you can start digging into

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Speaker 2: the circumstances of who this person was and it was,

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Speaker 2: or anything suspicious, you know, like a missing missing girl

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Speaker 2: from somewhere maybe in the Bay area.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is very halloweeny talk, absolutely, and I'm glad

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Speaker 1: that you're embracing your background. This is the power of

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Speaker 1: you when I know so many people are listening. But

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Speaker 1: then you can see our fun little things, the bones

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Speaker 1: book and all.

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Speaker 2: Of that well, I even have as it looks like

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Speaker 2: a crystal skull. It's actually an empty vodka bottle that's

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Speaker 2: in the shape of a skull, so I moved that

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Speaker 2: into view.

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Speaker 1: You're so festive, poll hooles at.

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Speaker 2: I should have filled it. I was looking for food

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Speaker 2: coloring to put like red liquid in there so it

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Speaker 2: would stand out a little bit more, but we just

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Speaker 2: don't have any in the house.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, well maybe for the next one. We'll see. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is not a particularly spooky story, but it'll be

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Speaker 1: interesting because I don't quite know if we've ever told

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Speaker 1: a story like this before, and it starts out with

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Speaker 1: a bit of mystery. We're in one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: time periods. I know it probably sounds like I'm constantly

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Speaker 1: saying that, but this is for real. This is where

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Speaker 1: American Sherlock was set in nineteen twenty one, and it's

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Speaker 1: in Birmingham, Alabama, And there will be some historical context

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Speaker 1: that I'll have to give you to understand this case.

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Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and set the seam. Let me tell

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Speaker 1: you about where we physically are, where we're going to be,

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Speaker 1: you know, exploring this murder, and then I'll kind of

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Speaker 1: give you a little bit more about the place and

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Speaker 1: the time period and everything. So this is a Catholic church,

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Speaker 1: you know. The first thing I thought of when I

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Speaker 1: started to think about this case being, you know, involving

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Speaker 1: the Catholic Church. And it's not a case that we have,

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Speaker 1: unfortunately become to associate with a Catholic church. This is different.

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Speaker 1: Is is there going to be a lockdown of information

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Speaker 1: within the church, you know, depending on who's involved, and

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Speaker 1: what will this do to their reputation presumably, So you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to look out for that kind of stuff too,

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Speaker 1: as I tell you the story. So we are in Birmingham, Alabama,

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty one, and it is Thursday, August eleventh. Because

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Speaker 1: this was important to me, I looked and this is

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Speaker 1: about eighteen months into Prohibition, which I'm fairly sure most

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Speaker 1: of our audience is aware of, you know, the prohibiting

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Speaker 1: of alcohol in most circumstances except medicinal and I think

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Speaker 1: I did tell you this. Then in my book, I

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Speaker 1: found out that that during Prohibition, Walgreens, which was making

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Speaker 1: medicinal whiskey, you know, for medicine to help people, they

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Speaker 1: were the only ones legally making alcohol in certain circumstances.

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Speaker 1: They expanded their pharmacies from like fourteen to two hundred

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Speaker 1: and seventy five during Prohibition. So probably I would say

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Speaker 1: Walgreens was the only place that actually loved prohibition in

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Speaker 1: much of the country.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, probably a lot of black market whiskey was making

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Speaker 2: its way out of the Walgreens distillery there.

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Speaker 1: I think so. And you know Oscar Heinrich, my forensic

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Speaker 1: scientist guy from American Sherlock. That's where he started becoming

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Speaker 1: interested in chemistry as they taught him how to make

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Speaker 1: medicinal whiskey and what its uses were. So he thought, well,

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Speaker 1: this is really interesting, and I'm sure took a little

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Speaker 1: sip here and there. He was in high school of course. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So we're at Saint Paul's Catholic Church, Birmingham, Alabama at

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Speaker 1: six thirty and this is a wedding, you know, and

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Speaker 1: we have a priest named Father James Edwin Coyle, and

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Speaker 1: he's important so that you would want to jot his

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Speaker 1: name down like you are. And he had performed a

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Speaker 1: ceremony just minutes before, okay, and he had married two

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Speaker 1: people with a massive age difference, an eighteen year old

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Speaker 1: named Ruth Stevenson and her fiance, who is a forty

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Speaker 1: two year old man named Pedro Guzmann, and I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you a little bit more about them in a minute.

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Speaker 1: He has performed this ceremony. I'll give you the background

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Speaker 1: on how that came about. But the opening scene of

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Speaker 1: this is he is sitting on the swing of the

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Speaker 1: rectory porch, so not right where the chapel cathedral would be,

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Speaker 1: but you know, the adjoining building. And he has a

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Speaker 1: a rectory housekeeper who is inside named Stella, and then

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Speaker 1: Marcella is his sister, and they're both inside. He's on

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Speaker 1: the porch by himself. He had just finished this ceremony

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Speaker 1: for Ruth and Pedro and was sitting outside relaxing, and

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Speaker 1: he did not think that this wedding was This was

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Speaker 1: not a planned wedding on his part. He had been

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Speaker 1: visiting with a friend at Saint Catherine's Church in Pratt's City,

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Speaker 1: which is about seven miles away that day and he

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Speaker 1: gets a call that sounds pretty desperate from one of

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Speaker 1: his fellow priests, Father Brady, in Birmingham, and he said

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Speaker 1: that you know, there is a young couple, Ruth and Pedro,

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Speaker 1: who showed up at the rectory and they want to

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Speaker 1: get married immediately, and they didn't say why. They say

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Speaker 1: this is going to be a small ceremony, and so

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Speaker 1: the priest comes back and says, okay, we're gonna go

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Speaker 1: ahead and do it. And so Father Coyle comes back

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Speaker 1: and it's a small ceremony, very uneventful. He's on this swing.

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Speaker 1: And while he's on the wing, the people inside, who

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Speaker 1: were Stella and the priest's sister, as I said Marcella,

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Speaker 1: heard two shots rang out and then there's a pause,

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Speaker 1: and there's a third, so they can hear him from

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Speaker 1: inside the house. They rush to the porch just in

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Speaker 1: time to see a tall man, six foot tall man

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Speaker 1: dressed in black, move slowly and deliberately across the yard

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Speaker 1: toward a hedge that is separating the rectory from the

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Speaker 1: church's good supply house. And they can see clearly that

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Speaker 1: he's holding a gun. He's not pointing this gun at them,

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Speaker 1: and he's not threatening them in any way, but he

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Speaker 1: is separating himself from the rectory. It's a thirty eight

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Speaker 1: or a forty five automatic revolver. They both come out

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Speaker 1: and they look down and they see Father Coyle, the

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Speaker 1: priest is splayed out on the front porch to the

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Speaker 1: left of the door. And then I have a description

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Speaker 1: of the scene. You know, where his body is. Is

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Speaker 1: that where you would want to go or do you

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Speaker 1: have any questions so far?

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Speaker 2: Tell me what is observed about father coils he just

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Speaker 2: shot while he's on the swing, or is there are

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Speaker 2: more things going on, more interaction between this tall man

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Speaker 2: and the father.

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Speaker 1: So you know, like any investigation, you'll have the crime

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Speaker 1: scene and then you'll have the results of the autopsy

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Speaker 1: and more information in a little bit. So this is

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Speaker 1: the crime scene if you're a deputy who's just showing

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Speaker 1: up here. So he's on the front porch to the

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Speaker 1: left of the door. His head is against the wall

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Speaker 1: underneath one of the windows. His feet are stretched beneath

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Speaker 1: the swing toward the street. And again last time somebody

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Speaker 1: saw him who was not the killer. He was sitting

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Speaker 1: on the swing. There's a bullet wound in his temple

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Speaker 1: that is still bleeding, and there are blood pools around

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Speaker 1: his body. The body extends halfway between the steps and

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Speaker 1: the end of the porch swing, and the blood is awesome,

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Speaker 1: so spattered against the wall. Everything else is in place,

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Speaker 1: so his hat is on the swing. The papers are

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Speaker 1: still neatly arranged on the swing, and the porches to

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Speaker 1: rocking chairs and a bench are not disturbed at all.

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Speaker 1: So this is what they walk into. And then there's

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Speaker 1: an ambulance that shows up in less than a minute

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Speaker 1: and he's unconscious, but he's still alive. So you know,

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Speaker 1: we've got this man who's sort of disappearing very calmly,

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Speaker 1: holding a gun. You've got this dead priest right after

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Speaker 1: a ceremony on the porch, and the last time people

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Speaker 1: saw him he was sitting on the swing. And I

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Speaker 1: have a photo of the porch, not the crime scene,

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Speaker 1: but just so that you can see. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: a beauty shot of the porch, just so you're able

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Speaker 1: to see it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let me take a look, because you know, one

250
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Speaker 2: of the questions that comes into my mind is the shooter.

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Speaker 2: Would Father Coyle have seen him approach or is there

252
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Speaker 2: a chance that the shooter could have snuck up? But

253
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Speaker 2: let me see. I know you sent me this, so

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Speaker 2: this is a photo of the rectory, And so what

255
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Speaker 2: I am looking at is it's a photo showing in essence,

256
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Speaker 2: what appears to be a porch. I see stairs that

257
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Speaker 2: lead up to a door on the left side of

258
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Speaker 2: the photo, and then there appears to be to the right,

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Speaker 2: maybe some sort of overhang. There's columns that go up,

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Speaker 2: probably supporting a roof. And then I see just a

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Speaker 2: standard bench what appears to be a chair, maybe a

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Speaker 2: rocking chair next to that bench to the right, and

263
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,680
Speaker 2: then to the furthest right what appears to be a

264
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Speaker 2: swing that's facing kind of the length of the porch

265
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Speaker 2: towards where the door and the stairs are. So you

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Speaker 2: know there is a chance, and this is where you

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Speaker 2: know the autopsy results will be important, but there is

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Speaker 2: a chance that the shooter could have come up behind

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Speaker 2: with the father kind of facing towards the door. There

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Speaker 2: appears to be space for the shooter to have either

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Speaker 2: snuck up to get close before starting to shoot. Based

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Speaker 2: off of the position of a father Coyle's body where

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Speaker 2: he's off the swing, you don't have the disturbed items

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Speaker 2: like there was a struggle. It almost appears like maybe

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Speaker 2: the shooter walked up onto the porch or walked up

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Speaker 2: right next to the porch, and the father stood up

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Speaker 2: off of the swing and then he gets shot, likely

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Speaker 2: with the two shots. My guess is his autopsy's going

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Speaker 2: to show that he has two shots that may have

280
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Speaker 2: hits more centered masts in the torso chest area. And

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Speaker 2: then you have the pause. Father coil goes down, and

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Speaker 2: then you have the execution with the gunshot wound to

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Speaker 2: the temple. Now that's just right now, just say educated speculation.

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Speaker 2: So from here, can you give me the autops or results?

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Speaker 1: Sure, and I can also give you the depth. But

286
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Speaker 1: the sheriff goes and we have a pretty good detail

287
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Speaker 1: about where bullets are found, like what walls, the measurements.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all of that.

289
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Speaker 1: So which one is more helpful? Do you want to

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Speaker 1: stay at the scene or do you want to go

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Speaker 1: to the autopsy.

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Speaker 2: Let's do autopsy first and then I'll revisit the scene

293
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Speaker 2: with those trajectories.

294
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Speaker 1: Okay, well this is going to be anti climactic. But

295
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,400
Speaker 1: he was alive and then you know, we get him

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Speaker 1: to the hospital and I wanted to mention this to

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Speaker 1: you because I thought this was really interesting. So when

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Speaker 1: the ambulance driver gets him to the hospital, he's still unconscious,

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Speaker 1: but he's alive, and there's you know, a small crowd

300
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Speaker 1: that has gathered around and had loaded him onto the ambulance.

301
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Speaker 1: And it goes to Saint Mencent Hospital, which is less

302
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Speaker 1: than ten minutes away. In the meantime, our deputy sheriff,

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Speaker 1: who's going to give you all this great information, is

304
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Speaker 1: examining the crime scene and I'm assuming looking for this

305
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Speaker 1: mysterious man in black who had done this. We think, okay,

306
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Speaker 1: so the medics there's a doctor named doctor James, and

307
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Speaker 1: the medics at the hospital first give him a stimulant

308
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Speaker 1: to try to kind of wake him up. So then

309
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Speaker 1: I was thinking, nineteen twenty one, what would the stimulant

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Speaker 1: be now that you know, I don't know if it's

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Speaker 1: the heart racing, and you know, I was thinking defibrillator,

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Speaker 1: but they're talking about a chemical. Would there be something

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Speaker 1: now that would in this circumstance would be appropriate?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that I don't know. You know, I know at

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Speaker 2: times that you'll you'll see medical staff inject epinephrine in

316
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,080
Speaker 2: order to you know, stimulate the heart or whatever else.

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Speaker 2: Potentially father Coyle is shot through the temple with a

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Speaker 2: thirty eight or forty five. You know, yeah, he may

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Speaker 2: still be you know, as hard as beating, and his

320
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Speaker 2: lungs are you know, he's breathing, but you know, in essence,

321
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Speaker 2: his brain has been in all likelihood destroyed to a

322
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Speaker 2: great extent. You know, So the term alive when you

323
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Speaker 2: made it to the hospital is probably a loose term

324
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Speaker 2: based off of, you know, I've seen what happens, you know,

325
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Speaker 2: inside the skull when you have a close range shot

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Speaker 2: from a thirty eight or forty five.

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Speaker 1: Well, the stimulants that I was looking at, I was

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out what they meant, and I thought,

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Speaker 1: you'd think this was interesting. So they would use cocaine

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Speaker 1: would be one of them. And then I thought, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: if it's cocaine, then also maybe amphetamines. The amphetamines didn't

332
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Speaker 1: come into hospitals really until the late nineteen twenties, and

333
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Speaker 1: this is nineteen twenty one, so they're using, you know, cocaine.

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Speaker 1: They also used strychnine in small amounts to try to

335
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Speaker 1: get the heart going again. It didn't work and he dies.

336
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Speaker 1: So these are the observations first of the doctor, who

337
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Speaker 1: is doctor Mason. He says, there are no powder burns

338
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Speaker 1: and there is no gun shot residue on Father Coyle's body,

339
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 1: and an X ray of these wounds reveals that a

340
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,720
Speaker 1: bullet had pierced just in front of his left ear,

341
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,400
Speaker 1: which is right at the jawbone, and it tore through

342
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Speaker 1: his brain and had blown a hole through the base

343
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Speaker 1: of his skull. You know, they had thought, I guess

344
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,720
Speaker 1: doctor Mason thought that maybe this would would be emergency surgery,

345
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,479
Speaker 1: and then he backed away from that when he saw that.

346
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Speaker 1: He said, you know, this guy is not going to recover,

347
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Speaker 1: and he was given his last rights and then he dies.

348
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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, so that sounds like that was the

349
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,200
Speaker 2: observed shot that was seen at the crime scene, which

350
00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,119
Speaker 2: was described as the temple area. It's kind of just

351
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,639
Speaker 2: a little down from the temple area in front of

352
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 2: the ear, but it's going through the skull as opposed

353
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Speaker 2: to kind of going down through let's say the face.

354
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Speaker 2: His observation of you know know what i'd call stippling

355
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:51,199
Speaker 2: or gunpowder residue. You know, this firearms discharge evidence is

356
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,680
Speaker 2: what we can look at in order try to determine

357
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 2: how close or how far away, you know, the shooter

358
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,359
Speaker 2: was standing from victim, so at least with his observation,

359
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:07,159
Speaker 2: this was a shot to father coils left side of

360
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,360
Speaker 2: his head at a distance at this gun wasn't leaving

361
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:17,639
Speaker 2: This type of firearms discharge evidence. However, the extent of

362
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 2: damage inside Father Coil's head, the base of the skull

363
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,640
Speaker 2: he's describing as basically being blown out thirty eight and

364
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,439
Speaker 2: forty fives. I mean, that seems like that's an awful

365
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,680
Speaker 2: lot of internal damage for this caliber of weapon at

366
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:38,479
Speaker 2: a distance. I'm kind of wondering if this wasn't what

367
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 2: would be considered a contact gunshot where literally the gun

368
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,920
Speaker 2: is held tight up against by outside the left ear,

369
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:51,120
Speaker 2: and all the gases from this gunshot literally go inside

370
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Speaker 2: Father Coil's head, and that can cause significant damage. These

371
00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 2: gases are very damaging. But right now, well, you know,

372
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,359
Speaker 2: it's I just have to assume that maybe this is

373
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 2: a shot that's, you know, maybe greater than two feet away.

374
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Speaker 2: I mean, it doesn't take much distance for this type

375
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Speaker 2: of firearms discharge evidence not to be deposited on Father Coil.

376
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 1: Well, and it seems clear to both of us right that,

377
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 1: because his hat is still there on the porch swing neatly,

378
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 1: his papers, which would have flown everywhere if he were

379
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 1: shot on the swing right are there neatly. So he

380
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,119
Speaker 1: clearly saw somebody coming or something and stood up, or

381
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 1: heard something and stood up.

382
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 2: Is that right, Well, that's you know, that's my guess,

383
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,119
Speaker 2: you know, and this is where, you know, I'm kind

384
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 2: of curious to see, you know, where else he was shot.

385
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 2: And then revisit the crime scene, particularly you know, the

386
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 2: position of the body as well as this statement you

387
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 2: made about some some blood spatter that's present, So that

388
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 2: that's significant because this right now, it appears that this

389
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 2: shot to the left side of his head didn't exit

390
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 2: the yedo and so is this spatter coming back out

391
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 2: of the entry wound or is there another gunshot wound

392
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 2: that could account for the spatter.

393
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting, So he says, doctor Mason had said

394
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 1: there was no metal to remove, so does that mean

395
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 1: that must mean that it was it went through, right, Yeah.

396
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 2: So I misunderstood that, Okay, So as a through and through.

397
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 2: So it's possible that that spatter, just depending on what

398
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,680
Speaker 2: side of his head, that spatter could be very possibly

399
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 2: from an exit.

400
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,919
Speaker 1: Okay. So this is why the photo and the body

401
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,159
Speaker 1: positioning or what we think the reenactment part of this

402
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 1: is going to be really important later on. So they've

403
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,640
Speaker 1: recovered one bullet, they find several holes, so there were

404
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 1: some shots fired, only one hit him. So there are

405
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 1: no other bullets in him, no other wounds on him,

406
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 1: just that one that we just talked about to the temple.

407
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: But there's evidence that there were other shots fired, and

408
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 1: of course they heard two shots and then a third

409
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 1: the women inside. But where they find these is what's

410
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,360
Speaker 1: going to be kind of important. And I think it's

411
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,360
Speaker 1: going to be a lot of like trajectory, bullet trajectory,

412
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 1: And I don't know where you land on that. Do

413
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 1: you always believe in that, you know that they can

414
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 1: predict from what height somebody was holding a gun when

415
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 1: they shot somebody based on the pathway.

416
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,679
Speaker 2: It's just straight physics, you know, particularly if it's if

417
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,199
Speaker 2: it's close enough range. We're not talking about you know,

418
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 2: one hundred yard distance, you know, typically we're talking about

419
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,199
Speaker 2: a matter of feet to a little bit, you know,

420
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: ten twenty feet whatever, you know. And the bullets as

421
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 2: long as they're not impacting, you know, intervening objects or

422
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 2: passing through other objects, you know they're going to fly

423
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 2: true for that stretch. And so when we go and

424
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 2: we have let's say, bullet defects and walls, we will

425
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 2: you know, evaluate that defect, document it as well as

426
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 2: then try to determine a trajectory if there's a possibility,

427
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,360
Speaker 2: and that does give us accurate information in terms of

428
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 2: you know, stringing it back or now using lasers to

429
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 2: be able to see what the flight path was of

430
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 2: that bullet. Now, sometimes you know, you have to take

431
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 2: into account, you know, how the offender is holding the gun,

432
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 2: and you know, what is the question that needs to

433
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 2: be answered in order to determine Can you actually draw

434
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 2: any conclusions from the trajectory as to the circumstances of

435
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 2: the shooting itself. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't.

436
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,959
Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and get to what the deputy sheriff

437
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,439
Speaker 1: found when he was on the front porch. So we

438
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 1: know it was one bullet and that's what killed them,

439
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 1: and we know that the women inside Stella and Marcella,

440
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: so they heard two shots ring out and then there's

441
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: a pause and then there's a third shot. So this

442
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: is what the deputy finds. So his name is Fred McDuff.

443
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: The officers are there and they find bullet holes. They

444
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 1: exis I'm in the bullet holes in the porch and

445
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: the church, So I think what we're seeing is the

446
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: church right next door with that kind of you know,

447
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 1: back on that photo, it looks like, oh, yeah, you

448
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: can see maybe because that the drawing of a priest

449
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 1: against the wall. Do you see that's kind of an

450
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: odd almost like behind the porch.

451
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, it looks almost like an apparition.

452
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 1: Yeah it is. Yeah, yeah, it looks odd. But I

453
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 1: think that's the church and then the rectory is separate

454
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: because that's his residence. So what they say they found

455
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: is there's one bullet hole that is about twenty and

456
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: a half inches from the floor to about three or

457
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 1: three and a half feet in front of the swing.

458
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: I don't know if that goes into the wall. I

459
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: think maybe we'll get information about that. The second hole

460
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 1: is about fifty two inches from the floor to about

461
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 1: two feet behind the swing. Yeah, so these must be

462
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: in the walls. Both bullets pierced through the clapboards, entering

463
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: higher than they exit. So is that somebody shooting downwards?

464
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: Is that what that means?

465
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 2: Well, it indicates that the bullets at that point had

466
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 2: a somewhat downwards trajectory. Now they're not indicating how steep

467
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 2: of a downwards trajectory there is. Describe that the location

468
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 2: of that second shot.

469
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 1: Again, so he says the second home is about fifty

470
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 1: two inches from the floor and about two feet behind

471
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: the swing, and both bullets pierced through the clapboards, entering

472
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: higher than they exited.

473
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 2: So if I'm understanding the directionality they're finding these bullet

474
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 2: defects into, I would say the kind of the wall

475
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 2: that is behind the swing, as if the trajectories are

476
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 2: coming from the shooter standing let's say, on the lawn

477
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 2: and then shooting at Father Coil towards the swing, and

478
00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 2: then the wall behind that is where the bullets are striking.

479
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: Does that make sense.

480
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: I think that does make sense.

481
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. So now you have one shot that's in front

482
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 2: of the swing, you have one shot that's behind the swing.

483
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 2: First shot is twenty inches above the floor. The other

484
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: shot is, you know, almost four and a half feet

485
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 2: above the floor, but still having somewhat of a downwards trajectory.

486
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 2: Both shots have downwards trajectory. So we have this tall

487
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,479
Speaker 2: man potentially standing on the lawn shooting towards Father Coil,

488
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 2: missing him, and those bullets are going into this wall,

489
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 2: which is sort of like the front of the rectory itself,

490
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,479
Speaker 2: is what I'm thinking this is indicating. And then you

491
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 2: have this other shot that is catching father coil and

492
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 2: you know, in front of the left ear, and that's

493
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 2: obviously the fatal shot.

494
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 1: Now I have a newspaper article which is terrible quality,

495
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: and I did not think it was going to be helpful,

496
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: but now all of a sudden, I think it's going

497
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: to be helpful. So it's poor quality, but I think

498
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 1: actually it will help clear out where the bullets are.

499
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: One of the office finds a thirty eight, So here's

500
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: an answer to our weapon, A thirty eight steal jacket

501
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: bullet from the left side of the porch. And then

502
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: another one another officer removes a bullet from a bookshelf

503
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: inside the rectory. Okay, So I don't know if that's

504
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: more confusing or if that's helpful, but I'm going to

505
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: send you this photo of this article because I think

506
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: the photo from the article at least it points to

507
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: where one of the bullets is, which is the rectory,

508
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: so that'll help.

509
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting that these are these are jacketed bullets.

510
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: What does that mean?

511
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 2: Bullets often have a lead core and then they can

512
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: have a thin metal covering. That's often in this case,

513
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: it's it's it's made out of steel and modern handguns.

514
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: You know, when you're loading your weapon to be used,

515
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 2: let's say for law enforcement, typically you have these bullets

516
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: that are what we call hollow points, so they're only

517
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 2: partially jacketed on the side, but the tip is left unjacketed,

518
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: and that's exposed soft lead core. When it strikes an

519
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 2: object or a person, it naturally mushrooms out and has

520
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 2: a larger surface area, and so it and has it's

521
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: you know, puts more energy into let's say the wound,

522
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: but it also slows down rapidly inside a person's body,

523
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: so you don't over penetrate. When you have something that

524
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: is completely jacketed, that's more of like for target practice,

525
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 2: and because it has this hard steel all around it,

526
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 2: it's going to have a greater tendency to penetrate deeper

527
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: into an object or pass through a person. So now

528
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 2: what you have is you have a bullet found in

529
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: the bookshelf, you know, So that jacketed bullet penetrated all

530
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 2: the way through the exterior wall and then ended up

531
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 2: embedding into this bookshelf. And that almost sounds consistent with

532
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 2: this bullet defect that was fifty two inches high above

533
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 2: the floor. But maybe it could be the one that's

534
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 2: twenty inches. So it just depends, but you might be

535
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 2: able to line, you know, where that bullet is found

536
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: with one of the two holes in the wall of

537
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 2: the rectory. Then you have this other bullet that just

538
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 2: laying on the porch. It sounds like left side of

539
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 2: porch near the front door, and so that sounds like

540
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: a bullet that you know, it could be from one

541
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 2: of the two holes in the wall if it bounced

542
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 2: off of a stud or something, or that may be

543
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: the bullet that passed through Father Coyl's head. And now

544
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 2: after it's gone through his head and is exited, it's

545
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 2: lost energy, so it doesn't go into the wall or

546
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: pass through the wall. It bounces off and then ends

547
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 2: up bouncing over by the front door. That's what I'm guessing.

548
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 2: And of course we could look at these bullets and

549
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: determine which bullet actually has potentially a blood and brain

550
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: man or on it, and determine, yeah, this is a

551
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 2: bullet that's the fatal bullet.

552
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 1: Does the fact that this killer used a steel jacket

553
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: bullet does that indicate anything about intent? Because you said

554
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: I heard target practice, but then I also heard penetrates deep.

555
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: So is this an ideal thing to go and murder

556
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: someone intentionally?

557
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: Could you have purposely selected a full jacket bullet? Yes,

558
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 2: in my experience, the shooters rarely are paying attention to

559
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 2: that aspect of the AMMA. Now, most of my cases

560
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 2: are dealing with you know, gangs, you know, and so

561
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: they whatever ammal they get, and that's what they use.

562
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 2: So I don't know, I really can't draw any conclusions

563
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 2: as to what the use of a steal jacketed full

564
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 2: metal jacket bullet would mean to the killer or what

565
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,959
Speaker 2: his intent was. So I'm looking at this photo that

566
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 2: you just sent me, and I'm assuming on the left

567
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 2: his father coil, just sort of like a portrait of him,

568
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: if you will. And then to the right is the

569
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 2: right side of the which shows the swing. And yes

570
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 2: it's been you know, photocopied way too many times, but

571
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: there is a white circle with an white arrow pointing

572
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 2: at what appears to possibly be a bullet hole that

573
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: is at a height that is above the back of

574
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 2: the swing and towards what I would say, behind the swing.

575
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: So that would be the second bullet hole, not indicating

576
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 2: what the sequence is, but just a second bullet hole

577
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: that you described, and then there must be another bullet

578
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 2: hole in front of the swing that is, you know,

579
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: maybe one third the height of the second bullet hole.

580
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 2: I mean, this is just indicating to me, Yes, your

581
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 2: shooter is standing on the lawn shooting at Father Coil.

582
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 2: You know again it's trying to figure out his body positioning.

583
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: But it doesn't appear that the shooter and Father Coil

584
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 2: ever came into physical contact with each other. Basically, Father

585
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 2: Coil is ambushed and shot, and.

586
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: You think this is that that that the lack of

587
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: gunshot residue and powder burns is one of those big indicators.

588
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 2: Right yeah, and I'm I'm kind of surprised, But in

589
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: all likelihood, you have a shooter that's going boom boom.

590
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 2: Father Coil is possibly moving, and then the shooter basically

591
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 2: takes better aim and catches Father Coyle in the head.

592
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: But it sounds like it's going to be at a

593
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 2: distance versus what my initial thought was is that Father

594
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 2: Croyle collapsed and then the shooter came up and did

595
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 2: a close range shot to the you know, the the

596
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: left side of his head.

597
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: Now they're saying that he was found. Let me double

598
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: check the body positioning to the left of the door.

599
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: So what I was thinking was, Okay, it's probably maybe

600
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,479
Speaker 1: it's the door's left, like if you're standing, you know,

601
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: looking out from the front porch. He must be going

602
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: for the door handle to try to run inside and

603
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: he gets shot beforehand. Or does that that make sense

604
00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: to you?

605
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 2: Well, the shooter is obviously, I mean, you got two

606
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: shots you know that are right there on the right

607
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 2: side of the porch. You know where the swing's at,

608
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 2: you know, so yeah, it is possible. You know. Father

609
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 2: Coyle gets up and starts running, and the shooter misses

610
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 2: and then eventually you know, tracks him as he is

611
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 2: approaching where the door is and catches him on the

612
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: left side of the head. Now that's where it's like, Okay,

613
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 2: is that where we are seeing the blood spatter up

614
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 2: on the wall.

615
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it said that the top of his body

616
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: has had it was found under one of the windows.

617
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 1: So he shot on the left temple. He's going for

618
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: the door, and then what he's kind of from he

619
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 1: falls backwards and his head ends up you know, even

620
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: further away from the door under the window.

621
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 2: Or he just collapses, you know, and the body flops

622
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 2: one way or another. From a reconstruction standpoint, it really

623
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 2: does indicate that at the time of the first shot,

624
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 2: Father coil Is is close to the swing, the shooter

625
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 2: is shooting twice in rapid succession at Father coil Well

626
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 2: on the side of the porch where the swing's at,

627
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 2: and then Father Coyle appears to at least try to

628
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: move away towards the front door, and then catches the

629
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 2: round in the head where he collapses. And that's pretty typical.

630
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the shooter, and we're going to assume

631
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 1: that the man who's dressed all in black holding a

632
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: thirty eight is the shooter, and he's walking calmly away.

633
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: He's just sort of exiting the yard. He's not making

634
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: eye contact with anybody, he's not running, he's not doing anything.

635
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: So is this the potential of somebody who is having

636
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: some kind of a psychosist psychological break, or a cool,

637
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,439
Speaker 1: calm assassin, or someone who is just so confident that

638
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 1: in what they just did that they think they're going

639
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: to get away with it, Or maybe that's too vague

640
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: of a description to give you to make a conclusion.

641
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:50,720
Speaker 1: Who did this? Paul?

642
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, right, now all we know is that

643
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 2: you have somebody that you know, approached Father Coil and

644
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 2: intentionally killed him, you know, with a firearm.

645
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: Uh.

646
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 2: It's interesting that he is not trying to get away quickly,

647
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 2: you know, but that also maybe he's he knows what's

648
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: going on on the grounds of the church that you know,

649
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 2: potentially he has the time to be able to just

650
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 2: kind of walk away. I don't know at this point,

651
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 2: you know, what to extrapolate related to his his psychology

652
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: or his mental state. This is now, well, why was

653
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 2: Father Coyle killed? You know, this is where victimology comes

654
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 2: into play. And then you know, you open up this

655
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 2: episode talking about Ruth and Pedro and you know this

656
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 2: you know, marriage of a man and woman that have

657
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 2: very you know, large age gap and it was a

658
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 2: last second thing. So is there a nexus with this

659
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 2: wedding that Father Coyle performed and the reason Father Coyle

660
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 2: is killed.

661
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: Well, let's before we talk about Pedro and Ruth what

662
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: because they're important, But let's talk about the overarching theme

663
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: of what's happening in the nineteen twenties, particularly with people

664
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 1: who are Catholic in this country. This is a very

665
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: very anti Catholic time in America and Alabama is one

666
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,879
Speaker 1: of those places. So a little bit of background. When

667
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: prohibition comes in, of course, there's a religious sentiment to it,

668
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: the belief that alcohol was corrupting people, and there is

669
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: you know, the conservative part of the churches are coming

670
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: together and saying this has to stop. Of course, we

671
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: also know prohibition was the origin of organized crime, because

672
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: anytime you tell people don't do it, they're going to

673
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: find a way to do it. So what comes with

674
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: that is you have a lot of these Protestant groups,

675
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: of course, like traditionally white nativist groups who are blaming

676
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: the immigrants, especially the Catholics, and saying that the saloon

677
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: that called it saloon culture in America is corrupting everyone

678
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: and causing and murders and you know, gambling, and they're

679
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: the corruption. And they blamed a lot of people, including

680
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: the Irish, and in some ways especially the Irish, and

681
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: father Coyle came from Ireland, so he had been receiving

682
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: a huge amount of hate from all across the city

683
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: even though he had been in Alabama for quite a

684
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: long time, because it was really ramping up from the

685
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 1: racist and the you know, the xenophobic people and all

686
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: of these hate groups led by the KKK. And the

687
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: KKK was really interesting in the nineteen twenties because when

688
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 1: Prohibition came out, they said to law enforcement, we have

689
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: a lot of men, we're all really strong, let us

690
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: help you tamp down the immigrants who are coming in

691
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: and bringing alcohol like the Irish and the Italians and

692
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: wrecking our way of life. So in a lot of

693
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: cities across the country, the KKK was responsible for cracking

694
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: down on people who were breaking the law during Prohibition.

695
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: And you can imagine this turned into just a nightmare

696
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: for an awful lot of people. As if Prohibition weren't

697
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: bad enough, then you're, you know, engaging with this clearly

698
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: racist group that is willing to use violence. And so

699
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: the KKK is everywhere across Alabama in nineteen twenty one

700
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: when this is happening, and Father Coyle will not stay

701
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 1: silent when people, you know, attack him and attack Catholicism

702
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: in general. So you're talking about a very outspoken priest

703
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,280
Speaker 1: in an area surrounded by so much hatred towards Catholics.

704
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 2: Well, and this is where there's there's a bit of

705
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 2: victimology in there in terms of Father Coile and potentially

706
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 2: upsetting these groups. Notably you know KKK sounds like they're

707
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 2: in bed with law enforcement during this era in this

708
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:56,760
Speaker 2: particular town. And this may explain why the killer didn't

709
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 2: feel like he had to run away because he, basically

710
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 2: his mind, he carried out a mission that is accepted,

711
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 2: socially accepted in this community. There wasn't going to be

712
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 2: anybody coming after him. That's now maybe you had asked

713
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 2: me before what does it mean about the killer and

714
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 2: it's like, well, now it may just be well, yeah,

715
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 2: you know, this is just going to be an accepted crime.

716
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,240
Speaker 2: I'll never be prosecuted. In fact, I'll probably be lauded

717
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 2: for committing this crime.

718
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: But you're also looking at just a massive pool of suspects.

719
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: If you're really going to if we find law enforcement

720
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:34,439
Speaker 1: we trust, and you're going to really try to drill

721
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: down to who did this to this man who's beloved

722
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: within the Catholic community in Birmingham, you have just an

723
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: endless amount of suspects who are willing to do this.

724
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: So where would you then start if that were the case.

725
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: If these two women who see the man in black

726
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: walk across the lawn and sort of vanish into the

727
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: shrubbery and they can't identify and they've never really seen

728
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 1: him before. So then what happens Now do you try

729
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: to approach these groups? There's one called True Americans, which

730
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: is a secret anti Catholic political organization, and they're everywhere.

731
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: There's a variety of steps investigatively that could be taken.

732
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 2: You know, part of it is just a straight canvas

733
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 2: try to find more witnesses. The when you start talking

734
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 2: about these groups, of course you can go you can

735
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 2: try and go talk to them. But this is where

736
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 2: now depending on how law enforcement interacts with these groups.

737
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 2: You know, does law enforcement have informants that they can

738
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 2: go to and say, hey, you know, what's the word

739
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,240
Speaker 2: on the street, what have you heard about who committed

740
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 2: this crime? Did somebody order this crime? You know? Is

741
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 2: this just a hit man who's carrying out a mission

742
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 2: for somebody else? That's a shot caller. And it's also

743
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 2: just now who has father Coyle had squabbles with, you know,

744
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 2: in the weeks months, you know, leading up to his homicide,

745
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 2: and then of course course the wedding. You said that

746
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 2: Ruth and Pedro they're important to this story. And right

747
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 2: now I don't know how they're important. Pedro has a

748
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 2: Hispanic surname. Is Ruth also Hispanic? She is not? She

749
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 2: is not what was her last name?

750
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: So her last name is Stevenson.

751
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 2: You know, I think the age difference and this got

752
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 2: to get married now. My assumption is is that Ruth

753
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 2: is pregnant. You have a Hispanic male that's likely Catholic,

754
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 2: and it sounds like Ruth is probably Catholic, so they're

755
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 2: rapidly needing to get this relationship ratified. I guess I'm

756
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 2: not sure that's a good term or not. And I

757
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 2: kind of wondered, you know, is there potentially when you

758
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 2: initially mentioned the wedding, could this be you know, like

759
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: Ruth's father, who is now upset. You know that father

760
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 2: Coyle is willing to marry his eighteen year old daughter

761
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 2: to you know, this forty two year old Hispanic man.

762
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 2: Is there anything going on along that front? You know?

763
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 2: So is it more in that real like a family

764
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,439
Speaker 2: type of vengeance if you will, versus what we were

765
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 2: just talking about. You know, this this idea that father

766
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 2: Coyle is upsetting the community in this community, you know,

767
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 2: struck out against him.

768
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: So it would be kind of uncommon culture in a way,

769
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: kind of an honor killing. If this were somebody doing

770
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: it on behalf of a family that did not approve

771
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 1: of their daughter marrying somebody who is Catholic.

772
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 2: Something along those lines.

773
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let me talk you about Pedro. Pedro was

774
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: born in Puerto Rico and he grew up very Catholic,

775
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 1: and Ruth did not grow up Catholic, but she converted

776
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,800
Speaker 1: to Catholicism about four months ago. She is not pregnant

777
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: as far as I know, but when she was twelve,

778
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: she had been intrigued by the priests, you know, who

779
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 1: were at St. Paul's church. She lives nearby, and she

780
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: had even stuck in and seen some of the ceremony.

781
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: And as soon as she turned eighteen she started to

782
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: take stef towards conversion, and she had met Pedro and

783
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: they fell in love. I don't have commentary on the

784
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 1: age difference. We don't know very much about them, if

785
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: they continue to stay married, if they had children. But

786
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 1: the most important part is that Ruth is the daughter

787
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:16,720
Speaker 1: of a Methodist minister.

788
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,280
Speaker 2: No interesting, Okay, he.

789
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: Is not happy about their relationship at all. And so

790
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 1: when Father Coyle gets word that there's a couple on

791
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: the steps of his rectory saying we need to get

792
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 1: married pronto, and they have one person with them who

793
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 1: was not even a family member, as like a witness.

794
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: This is the reason why is because the dad is

795
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:38,399
Speaker 1: not approving of this.

796
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 2: Was Ruth's dad very tall, He is tall, and.

797
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: He does like to wear black. And he shows up

798
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 1: on the steps of the courthouse and turns himself in

799
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: and says, I shot Father Coyle, And thus begins a

800
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: big unfolding of is this man going to get a

801
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 1: fair trial or is father Coyle going to get fair

802
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: justice in a town that abhors.

803
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:08,240
Speaker 2: Catholics, you see where parents kill because of what somebody

804
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 2: has done to their their children. Right in addition to

805
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 2: this father, because of what's happening with Ruth, he has

806
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:22,359
Speaker 2: some incentive on that front. But also there's this religious

807
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 2: divide that's also you know, kind of stoking the fire,

808
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 2: you know, the angst for this Methodist pastor, you know,

809
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 2: to go no, you know, I got to take care

810
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,879
Speaker 2: of this. This Catholic priest. He's done. He's done, And

811
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 2: in fact, I can almost see where he'd argue that,

812
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: you know, he's losing his daughter to Catholicism as a

813
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 2: result of what father Coyle has just done.

814
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: So his name is Reverend Edwin Stephenson. He does turn

815
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: in his gun and he doesn't say why he did it,

816
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 1: but he says, here's my gun, and I committed this crime.

817
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: He's a local barber and he is a Methodist Episcopal price.

818
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 1: In town. They would call him an itinerant preacher, so

819
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: he was kind of a traveling preacher. But you know,

820
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 1: he lived in Birmingham. He is called the marrying parson,

821
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: which means he does an awful lot of courthouse marriages

822
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: for young runaway couples. So so far, so good, except

823
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: he's also a member of the KKK. So the Reverend

824
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 1: Stevenson has said, even though Pedro has been identified as white,

825
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: I don't understand quite his heritage. He was born in

826
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico, doesn't mean that he was Puerto Rican. But

827
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:37,280
Speaker 1: Stevenson keeps labeling Pedro as black, so in his mind,

828
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 1: his daughter is marrying a black man who is also

829
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 1: a Catholic. The approach is that he has literally nailed

830
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: her windows shut. He has whipped her when he found

831
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 1: out that she was with Pedro, and then of course

832
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 1: when she converts to Catholicism and has you know, done

833
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: quite a lot of terrible things that people have heard.

834
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 1: I mean, this is all confirmed. He strapped her a

835
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: bedpost and he stuffed a rag in her mouth. I mean,

836
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: you know, he really had made it difficult. And I

837
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: think this is where the quick wedding came in. So

838
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 1: here we have a very violent man who seems to

839
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 1: have this streak of wanting retribution, wanting to get his

840
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: daughter out of this, and he was too late. She

841
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 1: had already gotten married.

842
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I mean he's a child abuser, you know,

843
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 2: first and foremost obviously, you know, when he gets angry,

844
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 2: he's willing to use homicidal violence. You said, he's not

845
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,240
Speaker 2: a good guy, even though he's you know, a leader

846
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 2: within his Methodist community if you will. You know, it's

847
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 2: interesting that, you know, he targets father Coil, and I'm

848
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 2: just kind of thinking out loud, why not target Pedro

849
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 2: and take take his daughter back, so to speak. But

850
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 2: maybe he recognizes that if he kills Pedro, that is

851
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 2: going to his daughter is in love with this Pedro,

852
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 2: and then he will never be able to save his daughter.

853
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 2: If you will, or have her come back over to

854
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 2: his side after doing something like that. But maybe there's

855
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 2: more to his motive than just Pedro and Ruth. Maybe

856
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 2: it is also this anti Catholic sentiment that he apparently

857
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 2: obviously has.

858
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: Well, I'll give you more background. Ruth ran away. She

859
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: went to Chattanooga and Reverend Stevenson, her father, sent the

860
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: KKK after her, and they dragged her back to Birmingham.

861
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: He had supposedly psychologists examine her and they said that

862
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: her mind was disturbed through derangement, and he said, if

863
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 1: you screw up again, I'm going to have you institutionalized,

864
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 1: which would have been very easy in the nineteen twenties.

865
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 1: So this is where his mind's going. As days go by,

866
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:00,879
Speaker 1: he has just had enough. I don't think he even

867
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 1: sees here's a daughter at this point. It's like an

868
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: a property that somebody is sullied, and he is determined

869
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: to keep her locked up and to not have this

870
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: fall on his family and his reputation, especially as a clansman.

871
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 2: So how does the trial proceed then?

872
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 1: So he is indicted by a grand jury on September

873
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: So this is about a few weeks later, and he

874
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 1: is churched with second degree murder, So what would that mean?

875
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: Not preplanned sort of kind of went out of his

876
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: mind temporarily and went over and when he found out

877
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 1: about the wedding, Yeah.

878
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 2: Kind of in the heat of the moment. You know,

879
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 2: I think it depends on Alabama's statutes, you know, but

880
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 2: first degree versus second degree first degree, obviously there's what

881
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 2: we call malice a forethought in terms of there's been

882
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 2: there's obviously the pre planning aspect to it. And even

883
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 2: if there had been some sort of hostile interaction between

884
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 2: let's say the killer and the victim, if there had

885
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,879
Speaker 2: been a cooling off period, then that the killer makes

886
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 2: a decision. You know, this is where your prosecutors will

887
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 2: sit there and take a look at the circumstances and decide,

888
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 2: am I dealing with first degree? Am I dealing with

889
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 2: second degree? Am I dealing with manslaughter? So it looks

890
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 2: like what they and they also have to take into

891
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 2: consideration what is the jury going to believe? You know,

892
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 2: And so you know, in this case, you have I

893
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 2: think there's an argument that Reverend Stevenson he arms himself

894
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 2: with a gun and he walks over to this location

895
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 2: and kills Father Coyle. I mean, you could make a case.

896
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 2: I believe that he planned ahead, he intended to kill,

897
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 2: But the prosecutors may have decided that there wasn't an

898
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: it wasn't convincing enough that they could get a jury

899
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 2: to go with first degree, and so they charge him

900
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 2: with second degree. And maybe it says, well, he just

901
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 2: found out about the wedding and he runs out of

902
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 2: the house with his gun and is like, God, damn it,

903
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to go get them.

904
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 1: Well, here's another layer, and we'll revisit what you just

905
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: said and see it. You know what you think about it.

906
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 1: The prosecutors rarely do I say I feel badly for

907
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: a prosecutor, but I feel badly at this point with

908
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: this prosecutor because the judge is a member of the KKK,

909
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 1: the foreman is a member of the KKK, the majority

910
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 1: of the jurors are members of the KKK, and several

911
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 1: defense witnesses, including the police chief, are all clansmen.

912
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 2: That sounds like a movie.

913
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:32,720
Speaker 1: I mean, we've talked about collusion before, but in corruption,

914
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: but this is this is an extreme. I mean, most

915
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: of this town is KKK, and this reverend is is

916
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 1: you know, well known and higher ranking in the in

917
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: the Klan.

918
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 2: It comes down to, Okay, these members of the clan

919
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 2: are they are they accepting of you know, one of

920
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 2: their own members, you know, committing homicide, you know, with

921
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 2: this type of motive, or is this something that they

922
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 2: themselves even find deplorable and would be willing to to convict.

923
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: You know, I don't have a clue, because you know,

924
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 2: of course the KKK just did horrible things to so

925
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 2: many people that I'm just assuming all these you know,

926
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 2: the judge and the police chief and everybody else, they're

927
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 2: all have the same mindset and go, yeah, you know,

928
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 2: we killed a Catholic.

929
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 1: The defense is led by a guy named Hugo Black,

930
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,479
Speaker 1: which you know, I don't expect you to know that name.

931
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: He was a Supreme Court judge. He would eventually become

932
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,439
Speaker 1: a Supreme Court judge, okay, and he was not part

933
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: of the KKK until nineteen twenty three, so he became

934
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: a klansman. What's interesting about Black, though, is later on

935
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: when he was on the court, he would vote against

936
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: segregation with brown versus education. So he has like a

937
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 1: I mean to say, a spotty history with the Klan.

938
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:50,799
Speaker 1: He voted with a lot of the liberal justices in

939
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 1: a lot of cases. So he has an interesting trajectory

940
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: we don't have to get into. But anyway, he's head

941
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: of the defense here, and of course the whole defense

942
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 1: is klansmen, and it's fun by the Klan.

943
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 2: Here, you have a community, and you have a government

944
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 2: structure that is infiltrated by a private group that has

945
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 2: very strong philosophies. And so from my perspective, obviously the

946
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 2: government is just going to be extremely influenced by the KKK. Now,

947
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 2: how does that impact Reverend Stevenson's trial? Is he going

948
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 2: to get an honest trial? Is a defense going to

949
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 2: be able to sounds like the cards are stacked against

950
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 2: the prosecutors in terms of being able to get a conviction.

951
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 1: Stevenson enters two, Please, I didn't know you could do that.

952
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: One is not guilty and the other one is not

953
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 1: guilty by reason of insanity. Can you do that?

954
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 2: I don't know if you can or not, you know,

955
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 2: but obviously it's trying to cover all bases.

956
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: Right for me, Neither of these work with what he

957
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: says happened, which was he said Quill attacked him and

958
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,239
Speaker 1: it was self defense. And you've already said that there

959
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 1: are no marks, and we've talked about in the autopsy report,

960
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: it's just this bullet wound and that's it. There's no

961
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 1: defense marks, there's no nothing happening on Coyle's body, you know.

962
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 2: And this is where you get into the crime scene reconstruction.

963
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 2: Those trajectories. The space on this porch is very tight

964
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 2: and confined, you know, all these these items on the porch,

965
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 2: these chairs and everything else. When you have two men

966
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 2: that let's say are are struggling, you know, you're going

967
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 2: to see potentially, you know, items being disturbed. But I

968
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 2: don't see how these trajectories line up with Reverend Stevenson

969
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 2: being up on the porch and then getting into a

970
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 2: struggle and shooting in self defense. Basically, those trajectories are

971
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,840
Speaker 2: suggestive that he's right there, walks up on the you know,

972
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,919
Speaker 2: on the lawn, and start shooting at father Coyle. Bits

973
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 2: of information I don't have is how steep the downwards

974
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:03,320
Speaker 2: angle of these shots are. Because if they're fairly steep

975
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 2: and they're putting the gun up on the porch, then

976
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 2: maybe there's a chance at Stevenson got up on that porch.

977
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 2: But based on what I'm seeing, I just don't think

978
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 2: that that's a possibility. He basically walked up and executed

979
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 2: to Father Coyle.

980
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 1: We have a lot of people in on this, including

981
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: the sheriff's deputy who had examined the crime scene. Initially,

982
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: he says that Stevenson came to his office before Stevenson

983
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 1: apparently went over to the porch, and he said, I

984
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 1: think that the Catholics meeting Father Coyle A and pedrom

985
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 1: Assuming have kidnapped my daughter and I want a search

986
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: warrant from you to look at the rectory and see

987
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:48,320
Speaker 1: if she's there. And McDuff says he didn't do it.

988
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: It was not granted. Then he says that McDuff and

989
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 1: there weren't other people who were corroborating this. But McDuff says,

990
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 1: oh yeah, you know, initially I saw there was a

991
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: chair that had been flung, and then I looked at

992
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: at the crime scene, and then I looked at Stevenson

993
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: and actually several deputies said that Stevenson had an abrasion

994
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 1: about the size of a man's thumb on his head.

995
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: He said that he also complained of back in foot

996
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:18,439
Speaker 1: injuries because he had been attacked by Coyle. But these

997
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: are all things that none of these guys reported until

998
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 1: after Stevenson had been confined to a jail cell. So

999
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 1: before there weren't any marks, and afterwards there are these marks.

1000
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 1: And the sheriff's deputy is like, listen, you know, I'm

1001
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 1: sure they have been there the whole time, and that

1002
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 1: this is a result of a fight. So it's like

1003
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 1: the prosecutor's not going to catch a break in any

1004
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:42,359
Speaker 1: of this. You know, everybody's against them.

1005
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, Stevenson is just now trying to, you know,

1006
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 2: set up his defense. He's bouncing himself off the wall

1007
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 2: inside the jail cell in order to get some abrasions

1008
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 2: to make it look like he had been in a fight. Yeah,

1009
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 2: I'm not buying it.

1010
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 1: So one witness, and I'm not kind. I'm not sure

1011
00:56:57,680 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 1: what this means, and I don't know if we believe

1012
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:02,280
Speaker 1: this witness anyway. One witness says that he saw flashes

1013
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 1: on the rectory porch from a nearby He was at

1014
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,320
Speaker 1: a nearby grocery store and he could see the flashes.

1015
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:13,720
Speaker 1: Each flash was progressively higher than the last, which suggests

1016
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 1: that the gunman had opened fire from kneeling and later

1017
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 1: standing positions. Does that make sense to you.

1018
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 2: Well, it makes sense to me because you know, the

1019
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 2: porch is elevated, and this is where Now, did Reverend

1020
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 2: Stevenson just walk up and plane view and shoot Father

1021
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 2: Coil or the porch would allow Reverend Stephenson to sneak up,

1022
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 2: possibly on hands and knees, below the eyesight of Father Coil,

1023
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 2: and then start shooting from a kneeling position and then

1024
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 2: stands and then Coil of course is now trying to

1025
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 2: get away, and then catches the round in the head.

1026
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think that's a distinct possibility.

1027
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let me tell you a little bit more

1028
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 1: about motive. Now they're saying there's shifting over and saying, okay, yes,

1029
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 1: this was self defense. But also Stevenson went crazy, he

1030
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 1: you know, temporari insanity. He found out that Ruth had

1031
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 1: married this guy Pedro, and that the union was breaking

1032
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 1: a law. So we know that there was there were

1033
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: laws in place that people of you know, that a

1034
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 1: white person and a black person could not be married.

1035
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: The Supreme Court took care of that in nineteen sixty seven.

1036
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 1: And even though Pedro is legally classified as white, right,

1037
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: I have my quotation marks around there Stevens had said, no,

1038
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 1: this is this is a black man. So this is

1039
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:36,479
Speaker 1: what they did in court. It's a very dramatic move.

1040
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 1: The defense turns off all the lights and pulls the

1041
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: blinds and shines a floodlight at poor Pedro's face, and

1042
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 1: so they're looking to see they produce these photos from

1043
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 1: Pedro where he had like curls that were rubbed from

1044
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: his hair, you know, meaning this was this was somebody

1045
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 1: who was a black man. There's no getting around it.

1046
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: So having the jury kind of examined this guy, just

1047
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: his facial features to confirm what they already know, which

1048
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 1: this is a black man, even though Pedro's not black.

1049
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 2: And so this is where the defense is trying to

1050
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 2: indicate that the act of ruth in essence being stolen

1051
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 2: away from him by Pedro, a Catholic and a black

1052
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 2: Catholic at that was so enraging that he lost Reverend

1053
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 2: Stevenson lost his senses and went and shot Father Coyle.

1054
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you about the prosecutor, because now

1055
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 1: he's ticking me off. He does not do a good job.

1056
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's because he's a clan

1057
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 1: member or if he was so intimidated that he ended

1058
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 1: up doing stupid things. He tries to poke hole in

1059
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 1: the defense but doesn't do a great job. He doesn't

1060
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 1: call hardly any witnesses, including Ruth. He does not put

1061
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: Ruth on the stand. He tries to introduce a guy

1062
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 1: named Douglas White, who was a minor like as in

1063
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:01,280
Speaker 1: cole Miines, who had seen the murder unfold and probably

1064
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 1: could have said everything, but Tate the prosecutor introduces him

1065
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 1: too late into the trial, and the judge says, no,

1066
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:11,479
Speaker 1: it's too late. He can't get on the stand, which

1067
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 1: Joe Tate would have known. He would have known that

1068
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: that was going to get thrown out. So I don't

1069
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 1: know what happened there, but you can imagine that the

1070
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 1: jury is not convinced of anything, and he has.

1071
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 2: Acquitted you know this, and thinking about Reverend Stevenson's actions,

1072
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 2: you know, he obviously arms himself. He goes to the

1073
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 2: Catholic church, but he had stopped by in the assuming

1074
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 2: it's a police department, to try to tell the deputy

1075
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 2: my daughter's been abducted. I need you to which seems weird.

1076
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 2: I need you to get a search warrant to find

1077
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 2: my daughter at the Catholic church. So you can see

1078
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 2: where he has got a mental clarity of what's going on.

1079
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 2: He could be very upset about the circumstances, but he's

1080
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 2: doing this in a step wise fast where now when

1081
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 2: the deputy doesn't pursue getting a warrant or going to

1082
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 2: the church, Stevenson takes things into his own hands. I

1083
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 2: think just his acts in terms of how he approaches

1084
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 2: this homicide really kind of underscores he knew exactly what

1085
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 2: he was doing. You know, he took it in a

1086
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 2: step wise fashion. It wasn't like he flew off the

1087
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 2: handle and ran over to the church and just started shooting.

1088
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 1: I agree. So the end of the story, it was

1089
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 1: a two hour deliberation and he is acquitted. Of course,

1090
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:38,959
Speaker 1: the end of this story is it's so odd these

1091
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 1: two men at the center of this, the Catholic priest

1092
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 1: and the Methodist preacher, are both revered in very very

1093
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 1: different ways. So Stevenson gets a seat of honor at

1094
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:57,240
Speaker 1: all of the clan rallies throughout Alabama, his defense attorney,

1095
01:01:57,680 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 1: you know, becomes a member of the KKK I talked about,

1096
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 1: and then Coyle is seen as a martyr even today

1097
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 1: and actually people have mentioned putting him up for sainthood

1098
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 1: because people were threatening to burn down the church and

1099
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 1: his house and rectory, and people who were law enforcement

1100
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:16,360
Speaker 1: who sounded like good people who were not colluding with

1101
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 1: the Klan had said you need to change your routine

1102
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 1: and don't sit outside in public, and he ignored all

1103
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:23,439
Speaker 1: of it. He said, now I'm not doing that. I'm

1104
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:26,520
Speaker 1: not going to cower down. Ultimately, what ends up happening is,

1105
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 1: you know, he is embroiled in this and I'm not

1106
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 1: saying this wouldn't have happened had he not married Ruth

1107
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: and Pedro, but it becomes yes, political, but more of

1108
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 1: just the fury of a father.

1109
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the acquittal is wrong. But once once

1110
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 2: that is done, there is no way to pursue Reverend

1111
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 2: Stevenson again for this homicide. And it just really shows

1112
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 2: his calmdemeanor. After killing Father Coyle and walking away, he

1113
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 2: had all the confidence in the world that he was

1114
01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 2: going to get away with it.

1115
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 1: Yep, and he was right. Yes he did. Well. We

1116
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 1: tell a lot of stories that for me, I you know,

1117
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 1: in true crime, are very very frustrating, and we know why,

1118
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:12,920
Speaker 1: you know, people die, especially when children die. This is

1119
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 1: frustrating on almost a different level for me, where it's

1120
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 1: just like no matter what you do, no matter how

1121
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 1: many people see it happen, and it's so clear that

1122
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter the politics step in, it doesn't matter.

1123
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 1: And that's what you know. I picked this story just

1124
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 1: because you know, we the Klan was political. I mean,

1125
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 1: let's face it. They had infiltrated every single area of

1126
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 1: power that there was in this country. So you know

1127
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 1: it's for mind or for me of you know, keeping

1128
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 1: a check on who is in charge of everybody who

1129
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 1: controls your life, you know, and Father Quile just paid

1130
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 1: this awful price for sure.

1131
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 2: In many ways, it's just a this is where the

1132
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 2: justice failed. You know, this was a failure of the

1133
01:03:56,120 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 2: system because of you know, the bias of everybody within

1134
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 2: that court, you know. So it's obvious to me Reverend

1135
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 2: Stevenson should have been convicted of murder and he got off.

1136
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:12,400
Speaker 2: And it's just too bad.

1137
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 1: Okay, I know this wasn't halloweeny, but we're going spooky,

1138
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 1: I promise next week for the Coup de Gral with

1139
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 1: our Halloween season and we'll go much spookier. But thanks

1140
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 1: for joining me on what I think is a really

1141
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 1: important case.

1142
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 2: Well, thanks for sharing me.

1143
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 1: See you next week, see you. This has been an

1144
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 1: exactly right production for our sources and show notes go

1145
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 1: to exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried Bones sources. Our senior

1146
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 1: producer is Alexis Emosi.

1147
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1148
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1149
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1150
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1151
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

1152
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1153
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:02,480
Speaker 1: buried Bones pod.

1154
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1155
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1156
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

1157
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1158
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

1159
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 2: Listen to Buried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1160
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.