WEBVTT - You're Not Failing Long Enough To Be Successful With Artist Daniel Arsham 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.840 No one has all the answers, but when we ask 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:10.639 the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:16.560 closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.280 Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.800 together to challenge the status quo and our own ways 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:27.360 of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not? 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:33.480 And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:41.560 the conversation. It's time to question everything. Hello, my friends, 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:46.680 Happy Thursday. I am just coming back from Denver. The 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:50.879 last few days I was there for the NWSL, the 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:55.160 National Women's Soccer League, and it was my first women's 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:58.240 soccer game. I was telling everybody that my first football 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:01.240 game was a super Bowl. I haven't been to a 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:04.319 football game since, and I also don't even remember who played. 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:07.959 It was the Lady Gaga Super Bowl, and I hadn't 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:10.080 been to a women's soccer game, and I didn't know 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:15.800 how I would feel. It was so fun. Wow, I'm 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:18.520 going to go to an LA Galaxy game. Now that 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:20.760 I'm back in LA and here for a little bit, 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.240 I can't believe how interesting and fun it was. Like 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:26.560 I feel like I'd been missing out on this amazing thing. 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:31.280 And I was there with the NWSL. They're absolutely making history. 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:34.640 The game I was at had sixty three thousand attendees, 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:38.600 which is the most ever. And I was interviewing Melody Hobson, 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:44.520 Malala and Ali Raceman while I was there. And Melody Hobson, 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.000 she's somebody I've wanted to talk to for a long time. 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:48.520 I'm going to try and get her on the pod, 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:51.600 but she said a few things that really stood out 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:53.280 to me that I just wanted to share before we 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:56.240 get into today's episode because I think it'll resonate the 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:58.080 way it did with me. So first of all, I 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:02.120 was asking her why women's sports, because Melody has had 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:05.920 one job since college. Okay, most people have an average 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.680 of eleven jobs over their lifetime, Melody has had one. 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:12.399 It's at Ariel Investments, which is an investment fund, and 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.400 she raised a two hundred and fifty million dollar fund 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:19.519 for women's sports. She owns the Denver Women's Soccer League 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:21.760 along with a lot of other teams with her husband 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:25.040 George Lucas, and this fund. The two hundred and fifty 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.440 million dollar fund will reach a billion soon and it 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.280 will be the largest female investment fund around and I 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.360 asked her aside from all the financials, which she explained, 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:39.200 like why it makes sense? I asked her why and 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:42.280 she got quiet for a second and she said, because 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:46.960 we are giving women what they are doue. Women's sacrifice 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:51.520 and work and give and have for so long, and 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:55.480 we are giving women what they are due. And everybody 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:58.560 in the room got quiet, like you could just feel 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:02.680 the energy shift. And then she shared this story and 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:04.320 this is what I want to share with you because 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:06.640 I've actually been thinking about it since she said it. 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:11.000 She said, her husband George Lucas, who's a famous film director. 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.240 He did Star Wars, which you know, has really stood 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:16.680 the test of time in the way most films just 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:21.200 don't like it became a phenomenon. And he's friends with 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:26.079 director Ghirmo del Toro and Guaramo recently did Frankenstein, which 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:29.920 won an Oscar and Ghirrimo sent them the film to watch, 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.880 and she texted him and she said, Geirmo, this was amazing. 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:38.760 Congratulations and he said, thanks, Melody. I think everybody gets 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:43.880 one song. This was my song. What's yours? And she 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:46.600 paused and she was like, WHOA, what a question? And 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:50.480 she thought about it and she said, my song is inclusion, 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:53.800 and that's obviously part of the Women's Sports Fund. But 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:56.360 you know, the rest of the week, in the weekend, 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:58.000 I was thinking, what is my song? 0:03:58.920 --> 0:03:59.160 Is it? 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.280 Curiosity is a form of love. I don't know yet. 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:04.560 I'm trying to think about it, but I would ask you, 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:08.160 what is your song? It's interesting to think about. Okay, 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:14.839 let's get into today's episode because it's quite special. Now. 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.800 A lot of us move through the world on autopilot. 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:21.520 We walk past the same street, same objects, same people, 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:25.000 and we never stop to question what it is that 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:28.479 we're actually looking at. But our guest today has become 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.720 a phenomenon in the art world by doing the opposite. 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:36.160 Daniel Arsham doesn't just create art. He reveals what's hiding 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:40.400 just beneath reality. He takes objects you think you understand 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:44.320 and then makes you question when they exist, what they mean, 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.200 and whether you've really seen them at all. If you 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:50.839 know art, or fashion or culture, you've most likely seen 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:54.920 his work. The melting clocks, the eroded sculptures that look 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:59.039 like they're simultaneously falling apart and crystallizing back together. He's 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:02.799 had collaborations with dior Portia, Tiffany Pokemon. 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:06.160 One of the magical things about being an artist is 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.479 you know when you make that thing that's the only 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:12.320 one of those that exists in the world at that moment, 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:14.960 and if you're very good at it, you can make 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:18.680 these things that other people invest in not only with 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:23.200 their money, but emotionally, conceptually, and that they think about 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:24.640 over long periods of time. 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:28.440 Daniel's built one of the most recognizable visual languages in 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:32.799 modern art, a language about time, about decay, and about 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:36.360 what survives. You could apply the same idea to his career. 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:40.279 From the outside. A successful artist, his work has shown 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:43.360 in museums and galleries around the world, and now a 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:46.640 new memoir called Future Relic. But on his thirtieth birthday, 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.880 Daniel Arsham was living in a ninety square foot box 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:53.360 suspended from the ceiling of his own studio in Brooklyn, 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.960 no kitchen, no shower, walking down the street to the 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:01.880 YMCA to wash up, absolutely unknown and unproven. He took 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:05.760 an enormous risk that changed the trajectory of his career 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:06.839 and life. 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:11.040 The most harsh truth is that most people are just 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:12.960 not willing to fail for that long. 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:17.200 Art historians will talk about a generation producing maybe a 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.560 handful of artists, sometimes fewer than ten, people whose work 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:24.400 genuinely enters the cultural conversation in a lasting way, the 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:28.560 ones whose visual language becomes so distinctive that you recognize 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.760 it without a label. Daniel Arsham is one of them. Now, 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:35.279 today's conversation is about art, but I think it's really 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:37.880 about something much more useful than that. It's about what 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:41.920 it actually takes to build something that lasts. The obsession, 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:46.080 the sacrifice, the willingness to fail in public for years 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.920 without any guarantee of what's on the other side. So 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.200 here's the question we're circling today, and the one I 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.440 invite you to ask yourselves during or after you listen. 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:58.640 What are you willing to suffer for in order to 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:00.920 attain it? And how do you care keep going when 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:03.719 there's no proof yet that you should. It's time to 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:13.400 question everything with Daniel Arsham. Daniel, congratulations, A career memoir 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:14.200 is pretty exciting. 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:15.520 Yes, thank you so much. 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:18.560 I really wanted to start with the art of noticing, 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.040 because I feel like so much of what you do 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:26.120 begins there. What is something beautiful or strange or interesting 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:28.400 that you've noticed today that made you pause. 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.040 Well, I'm back in New York. I've been traveling very 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:33.920 heavily for the last couple of months, and you know, 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:35.840 there's a lot of snow last time I was here 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:39.000 in New York and it's finally melted away, and a 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:41.120 lot of traffic this morning, so it took the subway 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:43.760 up to the studio for I did a session on 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:46.520 New York Fox five Good Day New York, which is 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:48.320 like a New York stable this morning. I don't know. 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:50.480 Interesting to just be back, you know, back in the 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.120 city after being away for so long. 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:55.680 Yeah, lots of noise in New York. Every time I 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:56.920 go there, I notice the noise. 0:07:57.160 --> 0:07:58.960 You might hear some sirens in the background. 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.120 I know that one of your earliest projects was taking 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.280 pictures of doors and R two D two from Star 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:08.480 Wars was something that you felt compelled to draw. But 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.200 do you remember the first moment when you realize you 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:13.280 were paying attention to the world differently? 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.520 I mean, I think you know, my early art career, 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:19.880 as I talked about in the book, was really through photography. 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:23.360 And this is something my grandfather told me at the 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:25.160 time when he had given me the camera, which is 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.480 that you know, anyone can take a photo, but not 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:30.720 everyone can make a kind of interesting image, and the 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:32.960 camera is really a way of looking, a way of 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:36.080 framing your own viewpoint. I think I've carried a lot 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:39.160 of that into the way that I treat my work 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:42.160 as an artist. It's really about revealing things that are 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:46.160 just below the surface of our reality, and yes, showing 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.200 people things that they may already know, but they're being 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:54.480 presented in a slightly altered way, something unusual and out 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:55.160 of the ordinary. 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:57.880 I was reading the other day about a guy who 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:02.120 said that if you meet a great photographer, know that 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.320 they are probably in a lot of pain. The way 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:09.000 they see the world is usually very sensitive. Would you 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.360 agree with that. Was your grandfather a sensitive guy? 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:15.240 No? I mean, I think his way of using photos 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:18.480 was just documenting his everyday, you know, experience and was 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:23.520 much more about family and travel and that kind of universe. 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:27.440 He probably never printed his photos larger than like a small, 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.959 you know, four x five image. When we think about 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.560 image making as artists, I think our perspective is quite different, 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:35.960 and a lot of it has to do with editing. So, 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:39.000 you know, we may take hundreds of thousands of images 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.199 or when I'm preparing a painting, I may do a 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.760 number of preparatory drawings and then select and kind of 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.640 edit down from that. So a couple of those drawings 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:51.840 can be failures or not work, and you know, the 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:53.800 final ones make it to the next stage. 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:57.160 I find that there are people who like to talk 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.520 about their process and then people who like to talk 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.679 about the outcomes. And in your book, I was really 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:07.560 struck by how much you talk about the process, the failures. 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.200 I mean even you know, one of the subtitles is 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:14.439 like Failures and Detours, and I'm curious why. 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:16.760 You know, just going with the idea of failure. I 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:20.680 think as artists, when we make work, or this is 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.120 true for any creative person, it's like we want to 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:27.760 reach the outcome that feels complete and feels ready to 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:30.520 kind of go out into the world. There was a realization, 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:32.840 I think for me at some point that I'm allowed 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:35.800 to fail so many times. I almost have to collect 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.240 those failures as a way to get to this final product. 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:42.800 And people look at my career today or even like 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.440 a completed work, and they don't really see all of 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:49.040 the steps that went into creating that I can make 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:53.800 a drawing now in thirty minutes, let's say, right, But 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.079 it took me twenty five years to be able to 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.160 learn how to do that. So there's a lot of 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:02.200 like trial and error and repetition and a willingness to 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.680 fail without really knowing that there is success on the 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:08.760 other side of that. I think the simple and the 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.680 most harsh truth is that most people are just not 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.600 willing to fail for that long, right, for that many 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.480 years to get through to the other side of being successful. 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:22.200 And today I've done a lot. But when I woke 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:24.960 up on my thirtieth birthday, I lived in my studio 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:29.480 in green Point, Brooklyn, which was one single room, very poor, 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:33.200 no kitchen, no shower. I went down the street to 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:36.200 the gym to shower, and that was only fifteen years ago. 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.400 Why is it important for you to let people in 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:40.800 on the process? 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:43.400 You know, when I studied in school, I went to 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:45.120 school here in New York at Cooper Union, and I 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:49.600 studied painting and sculpture and ideas, but I didn't study 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:53.600 at all how to turn those into a career. And 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:57.120 during the pandemic, you know, I was having a lot 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:00.120 of like younger artists reach out to me, asking like 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.160 how we were going to make it through this period 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:04.280 and what was going to happen on the other side. 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.679 And it sort of led to this realization that those 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:09.760 stories aren't really told that much. Right. People see kind 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.679 of the end result, but they don't really see the process. 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.960 And the way that I wrote this book was really 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:19.400 by speaking, so I didn't type it or you know, 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.599 write it out physically. And I think that's part of 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:25.200 the reason why I'd read so kind of conversationally. Is 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:27.800 I set like a series of topics that I thought 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:31.400 would be interesting, and then I just recorded them and 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:33.320 kind of edited down from there. 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.120 That's cool to know you just kind of recorded voice 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:38.640 notes to yourself. Yeah, I loved reading that your fourth 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:41.480 grade teacher, Miss Perry, was one of the first people 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:43.400 to tell you that you might be really good at this. 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:47.240 In hindsight, what do you think she saw that as 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:49.600 a fourth grader you just could never recognize at the time. 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:53.880 She probably saw like a persistence and an obsessive quality 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:57.679 about wanting to be making art, because realistically, like every 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:01.000 fourth grader is probably at the same level in making art, 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:03.680 and in some ways, like every person is an artist 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:05.760 when they're a child, Like we all have drawings that 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:07.720 our mothers have kept, you know, from when we were 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:10.520 five years old, and at some point we forget how 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.840 to do that, we forget the interest in that creative 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:17.480 aspect of our lives. And I think you recognize that 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.720 I continue to have this obsessive quality about drawings, about painting, 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:25.600 and you know, encourage my parents to let me follow 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:26.319 that path. 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:28.560 I really want to ask you about your parents, because 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.920 I was laughing reading about how they really wanted something 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:35.040 more stable for you. And I was laughing because up 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.200 until about two years ago, I'm thirty five, my parents 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:40.040 they would call me. They live in Chicago, and they 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:41.839 would be like, are you sure you don't want to 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:45.040 be an executive recruiter? And I had already found like 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.400 enough success that should not have been a question. But 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:50.600 I think parents they just want to know that their 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.400 kids are okay. Have your parents, in so many words, 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.120 said that they're proud and they're okay with your path? 0:13:57.400 --> 0:13:59.440 I mean, certainly they are now, and I think they're 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.920 probably about how far I managed to take it. But 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:07.240 my dad was a banker and my mom worked at 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.960 a university, and so their perspective on me pursuing art 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:15.120 was interesting you know, I grew up around culture from them, 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:19.400 specifically my mom, But I think that they thought the 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:21.680 end result of that would be a job like in 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:25.320 graphic design or something that they could imagine could be 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:29.640 applied to, you know, trade, and I really just kind 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:33.360 of invented the career out of failure and trial and error. 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:35.240 And you know, as I said, I didn't have an 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:39.120 apartment when I finished school until I was thirty two. 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:41.720 I put everything that I had back into the studio, 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:43.760 and that was part of the intention. Was if I 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:45.720 have to rent my studio and I have to pay 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.400 for a separate apartment, I'm losing a couple thousand dollars 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:51.600 a month that I could then apply to making my work, 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.000 to traveling for exhibitions, whatever I needed. 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:56.720 Did you feel like at that moment when you were 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.600 living out of your studio and you weren't telling people, right, 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:01.520 you just hide that part of the studio if you 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:02.920 had people come in to visit. 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.800 Actually, people totally knew. I had a loft in the 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:09.360 studio and it was like a box almost hanging from 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.880 the ceiling with a ladder that dropped down out of 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:13.880 the bottom of it that I could kind of crawl 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:18.080 up into and inside of it. It was probably ninety 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:22.120 square feet and I built out the most luxury ninety 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.200 square feet that I could make, right, So there was 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:28.080 a bed in there, there was a television mounted to 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:30.960 the wall. I put all this beautiful lighting in there, 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.160 and it's what I could do. And then I you know, 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:37.160 I had a gym membership at the YMCA and green Point, 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:39.640 and so I would go there use the shower. That's 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:40.200 all I needed. 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.120 Is it hard that people look at your success now 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:47.800 and like, don't quite realize what sacrifice it took. Did 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:49.720 you have a lot of people willing to support you 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:52.800 when you were living in your studio in Greenpoint? 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:55.600 I got very lucky. But part of the idea is 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:58.440 you got to be working when luck is floating around 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:01.880 for it to find you. So when I finished college, 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:06.800 I wanted nothing more in the world than to show 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.280 with this French gallery. And the owner's name is Emmanuel Parton, 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:12.480 and I had heard that he was going to be 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:16.160 in town, and basically through an art collector that I know, 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:18.640 managed to get him to come over for a visit. 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.720 And in the weeks before that, I'm thinking to myself, like, 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.760 how can I convince this guy who works with some 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.240 of the most famous artists in the world to give 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.640 me a show. I'm a nobody, right, nobody's seen my work. 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:35.040 I haven't sold anything. I've just finished school. I'm twenty 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:37.640 three years old. And I kept repeating, like, how can 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.000 I show him that I want to exhibit in his gallery? 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.000 And finally I'm like, I need to show him and 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.520 exhibit in his gallery. And so I built a full 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:49.640 scale replica of his gallery in my studio out of cardboard, 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:53.560 like down to every detail, like the radiator, the benches, 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.720 there was like a flower vase on the desk, and 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:00.360 I built it all out of cardboard, and I hung 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:04.360 an exhibition of my work in it. And he came 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:06.479 over for the visit and as soon as he like 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.239 walked through the door, you know, he recognized immediately that 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:13.480 he was in that space and the question was in 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.119 the room. I didn't even have to ask him. It 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:18.840 was a proposal that he was able to see. And 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:23.040 that kind of like crazy idea is something that I've 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.560 tried to really dig down on, and there's been many 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:30.479 instances of things that I've uncovered. You know, somehows you 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:32.879 may have to make the crazy move to reach the 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:34.240 crazy place you want to be. 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:37.080 I think that's really inspiring to hear. And it was 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:39.679 cool to find out that you recently found out that 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:44.560 same guy, Emmanual Parentine, secretly bought every piece in your 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:47.440 first show, your first solo show, to show you support. 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:51.360 What does it feel like to discover that the foundation 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:53.880 of your career was built on this act of love 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:55.199 that you didn't even know about. 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.080 So that same show, right, the one that I hung 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:01.440 originally in the cardboard space, we mounted that show about 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:04.840 a year later in Paris, and this was another one 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.439 of these moments where I'm relatively unknown, you know. I 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:12.040 go to Paris, I do the exhibition, and I wasn't 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.560 even really thinking about the financial aspect of it at 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:16.520 that time. I was just like, this is great. You 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:19.000 feel like, oh, I've made it at this point. And 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.200 the following day I go back to the gallery and 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.280 one of the women who works there, Peggy, said, great news, 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:26.440 the tire show sold. 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:29.760 Which can you just explain to people who haven't heard 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.080 of Parentied, like what that is like? 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:37.600 So Emmanuel Parenton now is one of the most famous 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:41.520 galleries in the world. Right, he has basically climbed through 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:44.360 the ranks of the art world and now has exhibition 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.560 spaces all over the world. So the original one in Paris, 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:49.800 he's got an exhibition space here in New York that 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.359 I actually have a show at now, Los Angeles, Tokyo, 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:58.679 Hong Kong, Shanghai, London, Los Angeles, like everywhere. And he's 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:00.880 worked with some of the most famous artists in the world, 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:04.719 Takashi Murakami, Marizio Catalan, and so it was kind of 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:06.800 an amazing thing for me to be able to do 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:08.960 that exhibition in the first place. I was twenty three 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.720 years old, kind of unknown, and then to have that 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:15.520 exhibition sell out, you know, I was floored. So about 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:19.000 twenty years later, I'm preparing for a big museum exhibition 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:20.879 and this is like a major deal. It's kind of 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.080 like a mid career thing for me, where I was 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:26.280 invited to create a huge solo exhibition at a museum 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.640 in California, and then that show traveled, It was in Korea, 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:31.560 you know, kind of moved around the world. And as 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:34.560 I'm preparing for it, I'm having dinner with Emmanuel and 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.080 I said, one of the aspects of the exhibition that 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:39.920 I want to show is some work from that earliest 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:42.040 show that I did with you, which was twenty years ago. 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:45.200 So I said, you know, can you ask your staff 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:47.159 to help me locate a couple of the pieces, like 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:49.320 from the collectors who bought them. And he looks at 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:51.000 me and he says, oh, I know where everything is 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:53.040 from that show. And I was like, what do you 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:56.040 mean you know where everything is? You know? And he says, well, 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:59.639 I bought that whole show. And you know, at the moment, 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.480 it was like so hard to understand. Like clearly at 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:07.320 the time he wanted to show me that success and 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:10.000 kind of launched me with this feeling of like, oh, 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.239 I've made it, and also give me some funds that 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:15.879 I could use to you know, continue making my work. 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:18.960 And you know, that's just kind of like the person 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:20.800 that he is. You know, he still had all the work. 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.119 I borrowed a bunch of it to put in the exhibition. 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:26.680 And sometimes you find people who support you without even 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:28.000 asking for anything. 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:30.880 They're like angels. They just come in when you need 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:32.440 it most. It's pretty remarkable. 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:35.040 Well, you got to put that energy out into the world, 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:38.840 and we you know, talked about before. It's like talent luck, 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:42.360 like all of these kind of floating ideas, like they exist, 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:43.720 but they have to find you working. 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:58.120 Did you see this all, Daniel, like when you were 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.439 in your bed at night? And that's studio because some 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:03.760 people I interview, like Kevin Hart, was like, I had 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:05.360 no idea, and I don't know that I. 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:08.639 Believe him so, not to the degree that it's at 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:10.639 right now, but I certainly feel like I kind of 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:14.400 manifested things by imagining scenarios. And you know, not all 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:16.240