1
00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,120
Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. We returned to you this evening with

2
00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:11,160
Speaker 1: a classic episode about a terrible, terrible conspiracy that continues

3
00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:16,959
Speaker 1: today in twenty twenty four and continued far before we

4
00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,800
Speaker 1: first spoke about this in twenty nineteen.

5
00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:24,919
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and we've learned so much more about the

6
00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,760
Speaker 2: prison system and healthcare, you know, as two separate things

7
00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,880
Speaker 2: since that time. I'm specifically thinking back to the discussion

8
00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,640
Speaker 2: you guys had with the Lava for Good folks, like

9
00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,600
Speaker 2: all the different hosts there, and just learning about the

10
00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,960
Speaker 2: dangers of the prison system. But the weirdest thing, the

11
00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,680
Speaker 2: weirdest thing for me was learning from them through you guys,

12
00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,320
Speaker 2: that private prisons are actually way smaller of a deal

13
00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,880
Speaker 2: than I thought because there's so fewer of them.

14
00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:56,160
Speaker 3: But yet they're the ones that get all the headlines.

15
00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,680
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, well that's the headlines, and that's at least

16
00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,800
Speaker 2: my perception. And the reason why that was mind blowing

17
00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,800
Speaker 2: to me is because I imagined there was pretty good healthcare

18
00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,000
Speaker 2: for prisoners because there is a profit motive to keep

19
00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,600
Speaker 2: that prisoner alive and in jail, because the private prison

20
00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,120
Speaker 2: gets money per person per bed, right, But that's not

21
00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,360
Speaker 2: that's not the way it goes in most prisons.

22
00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:24,679
Speaker 3: Accurate. Let's check out the episode.

23
00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,960
Speaker 4: From UFOs to Psychic Powers and government conspiracies. History is

24
00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,360
Speaker 4: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

25
00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,440
Speaker 4: learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

26
00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,559
Speaker 1: A production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.

27
00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,520
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

28
00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:52,160
Speaker 2: my name is Nolan.

29
00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,120
Speaker 1: They call me Ben. When we were joined with our

30
00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,160
Speaker 1: super producer Paul Michigan, control decand most importantly, you are you.

31
00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,760
Speaker 1: You are here that makes this stuff they don't want

32
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,240
Speaker 1: you to know. We've been going down some dark alley

33
00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:10,200
Speaker 1: ways figuratively speaking or conversationally speaking in the past few episodes,

34
00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,440
Speaker 1: and you know, honestly, we're getting to a point where

35
00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,280
Speaker 1: maybe we should do something a little more lighthearted in

36
00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,639
Speaker 1: the future. Well that's not true. We have a lighthearted

37
00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,679
Speaker 1: interview for the Legend of Cocaine Island that's out now

38
00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,080
Speaker 1: by the time you hear this. So that's a fun listen, right.

39
00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,520
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, We've got stuff unicorns don't want you to

40
00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:31,320
Speaker 2: know on the slate.

41
00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:35,080
Speaker 1: M Okay, yeah, I know. Well it's weird because I

42
00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,640
Speaker 1: was thinking I was reading something about unicorns oddly enough,

43
00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,519
Speaker 1: now that you mentioned this, wherein someone who was a

44
00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,280
Speaker 1: zoologist of some sort of another said, based on the

45
00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:48,560
Speaker 1: fact that they had a single horn, and based on

46
00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,760
Speaker 1: the fact that was positioned in the center of their

47
00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,080
Speaker 1: forehead facing forward, what that tells us about their behavior.

48
00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,920
Speaker 1: It's very similar to rhinos. So unicorns, if they did exist,

49
00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:03,160
Speaker 1: would probably be legerent, antagonistic animals, capable of great violence.

50
00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,400
Speaker 3: They'd be very stabby, and that's something unicorns don't want

51
00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:06,920
Speaker 3: you to know.

52
00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:11,200
Speaker 2: That's right, not the profile, Yeah, exactly, all the glitter

53
00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:13,320
Speaker 2: and all the shininess.

54
00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:14,440
Speaker 1: And they're weird thing with virgins.

55
00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,079
Speaker 3: Have you seen that movie Legend with a very very

56
00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:17,840
Speaker 3: young Tom.

57
00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,120
Speaker 1: Cruise and a very awesome Tim Curry.

58
00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,800
Speaker 3: Very awesome Tim Currey wearing a giant rubber satan suit,

59
00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,079
Speaker 3: And there's a whole thing where they like the unicorns

60
00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,320
Speaker 3: play a big part in that, very very important.

61
00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,760
Speaker 1: There's also the animated The Last Unicorn, which is really sad. Yeah.

62
00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking about the Brie Larson, her directorial debut,

63
00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,560
Speaker 2: something about the Unicorn Store something to that.

64
00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,360
Speaker 3: Effects on Netflix. Now it is is it spoiler alert?

65
00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,920
Speaker 3: Does not seem to have anything to actually do with unicorns,

66
00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:45,360
Speaker 3: I know, just putting that out.

67
00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,320
Speaker 1: Well, thank you guys, you've saved me a few hours.

68
00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,240
Speaker 3: No, it else has absolutely nothing to do with unicorns.

69
00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,800
Speaker 1: The healthcare in the prison systems. So the US healthcare

70
00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,000
Speaker 1: system is by any measure, no matter how you look

71
00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,280
Speaker 1: at it, no matter what your opinion is, and everybody

72
00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,240
Speaker 1: has opinions about this, by any measure, it's anomalous. One

73
00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:07,240
Speaker 1: of the world's wealthiest countries with one of the world's

74
00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:14,080
Speaker 1: worst performing healthcare sticks. You know, like not in comparison

75
00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:18,080
Speaker 1: to very very impoverished countries so much as in comparison

76
00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:23,640
Speaker 1: to other countries we would consider peer countries economically. Right. Yeah,

77
00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,240
Speaker 1: And there's the one thing we all agree on is

78
00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:31,719
Speaker 1: that this thing is rife with problems. It's lousy with

79
00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,760
Speaker 1: problems and things that don't work, and it's complicated by

80
00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,520
Speaker 1: the fact that there is a ton of money wrapped

81
00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:41,400
Speaker 1: up in this issue. Doctors make a ton of money, hospitals,

82
00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,160
Speaker 1: of course, insurance companies make tons of money. There's a

83
00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,080
Speaker 1: lot writing on this, and that means there's also extensive

84
00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,880
Speaker 1: propaganda in play. We will hear some people say, well,

85
00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,080
Speaker 1: the entire problem with US healthcare is that it is

86
00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,200
Speaker 1: to a great degree run by privatized insurance companies, that

87
00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,280
Speaker 1: they're the root of the problem as they continually put

88
00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,400
Speaker 1: profits over the greater good. For some people, that's fighting words.

89
00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,719
Speaker 1: For other people, it's like, you know, shrug, dot gift,

90
00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,800
Speaker 1: that's what companies do, that's what for profit businesses do.

91
00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,080
Speaker 1: Other people say, no, it's broken. But the problem is

92
00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:22,120
Speaker 1: not honest, red blooded American business. It's that the government

93
00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,560
Speaker 1: is involved. And every time Uncle Sam is involved in something,

94
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,800
Speaker 1: it's going to be ruinous because the government is inefficient

95
00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,440
Speaker 1: and corrupt. Sometimes that's a sincere argument. Sometimes it's a

96
00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,920
Speaker 1: Star of the Beast argument. Depends on what you hear about.

97
00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,919
Speaker 1: And today's episode is not about that cartoonishly tragically comic

98
00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,919
Speaker 1: state of medical care in the US overall. That's probably

99
00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,320
Speaker 1: its own podcast. Today's episode instead is about one of

100
00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,839
Speaker 1: the worst case scenarios for anyone who lives in this

101
00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,760
Speaker 1: country and ever gets sick orrever needs some sort of

102
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,640
Speaker 1: medical treatment. Healthcare in prison.

103
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:01,760
Speaker 2: Two things you don't want to be a part of.

104
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,719
Speaker 2: Sick and incarcerated. So just to get a better understanding

105
00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,839
Speaker 2: of this problem, it's best to start with some statistics.

106
00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,000
Speaker 2: We all love those. So let's look at just the

107
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,839
Speaker 2: US population in general. As of twenty eighteen, the population

108
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,000
Speaker 2: in this country was three hundred and twenty seven point

109
00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,480
Speaker 2: two million human beings. Twenty eight point seven percent of

110
00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,880
Speaker 2: the population is under the age of eighteen, so you know,

111
00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,279
Speaker 2: that's almost a third of the people very very young.

112
00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,200
Speaker 2: About fifteen point six of the population is over the

113
00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,880
Speaker 2: age of sixty five. And then that leaves the people

114
00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,560
Speaker 2: who are not minors, you know, who are eighteen and

115
00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,320
Speaker 2: they're also not they're above eighteen below senior citizen, which

116
00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,240
Speaker 2: are going to be the primary, the primary age range

117
00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,440
Speaker 2: for people who are incarcerated.

118
00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,880
Speaker 1: Right right, the regular, the regular Joe's and James. This

119
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,800
Speaker 1: is interesting that fifteen point six percent number for elderly

120
00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,920
Speaker 1: and senior citizens makes sense because do in large part

121
00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,280
Speaker 1: to the way the healthcare system here does or does

122
00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:10,960
Speaker 1: not work, We have a disturbingly low life expectancy compared

123
00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,120
Speaker 1: to other what are called first world countries or other

124
00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:18,960
Speaker 1: developed countries is a better phrase. So's that's the population

125
00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,760
Speaker 1: by the numbers. What about the medical stuff? Do we

126
00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:23,120
Speaker 1: have any stats for that?

127
00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the US spends way more on healthcare than

128
00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:33,040
Speaker 3: any other nation. On this here globe three and forty

129
00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,640
Speaker 3: eight dollars per person, which amounts nearly eighteen percent of GDP,

130
00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,280
Speaker 3: which seems bonkers to me. Government funded Medicare and Medicaid

131
00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,920
Speaker 3: account for more than a dollar of every three dollars

132
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,280
Speaker 3: of US healthcare spending, and a dollar every four dollars

133
00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,200
Speaker 3: in the federal budget. The entire federal budget, we know

134
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,440
Speaker 3: is a is like seems like one of those imaginary numbers,

135
00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,200
Speaker 3: you know, the trillions.

136
00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:03,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's largely, it is largely a series of which

137
00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,440
Speaker 1: is promises, increasingly ambitious pitches. I was going to say

138
00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,240
Speaker 1: from Congress. Absolutely, and and it's been growing, right, it's

139
00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,760
Speaker 1: been growing Medicare at least that more than twice the

140
00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,920
Speaker 1: rate of inflation. It's forecast to accelerate as what we

141
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:23,080
Speaker 1: call the baby boomer generation ages increasingly into that elderly demographic.

142
00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:28,400
Speaker 1: So that's one thing upon which we cannot blame millennials. Sorry,

143
00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,760
Speaker 1: I know some of us in the audience are dig that.

144
00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,280
Speaker 2: But yeah, and then that's just for Medicare. That's that's

145
00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,640
Speaker 2: the part that the government helps out with, right, right,

146
00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,320
Speaker 2: And that's for people who do have Medicare, you're considered

147
00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,480
Speaker 2: to have healthcare. There are a lot of other healthcare

148
00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,880
Speaker 2: comes from employers, kind of like what we have sitting

149
00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,440
Speaker 2: in this room, including Michigan control over there.

150
00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:53,520
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, Matt twenty sixteen. Private health insurance covered

151
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,800
Speaker 1: more people than the government does. So you pay like

152
00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:03,040
Speaker 1: think of think of every country as a club. We've

153
00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:08,160
Speaker 1: said this before in previous episodes. The concept of taxes,

154
00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,880
Speaker 1: the concept of taxation is at heart in a very

155
00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:17,080
Speaker 1: oversimplified way, it's the same thing as paying dues to

156
00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:23,240
Speaker 1: a club, country club perhaps, sure, a country club, a

157
00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,920
Speaker 1: chess club that has a nice HQ, if they have those.

158
00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,040
Speaker 1: The idea is, you pay into this thing, and because

159
00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,520
Speaker 1: you've paid into this thing, you get certain rights. So

160
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,800
Speaker 1: you're a country club, a golf club, whatever. That goes

161
00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,000
Speaker 1: to the maintenance of the place, but it also goes

162
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,040
Speaker 1: to the maintenance of things you use. So the argument

163
00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,080
Speaker 1: that people will have is that, well, if you pay

164
00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,920
Speaker 1: taxes here in a country, then those taxes should guarantee

165
00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,400
Speaker 1: some of your rights, guarantee some maintenance, and then arguably

166
00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,480
Speaker 1: they could be in a situation where they pay to

167
00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:01,040
Speaker 1: help keep you alive or at least make your existence

168
00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,199
Speaker 1: a little bit less painful than it would be without

169
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,800
Speaker 1: health insurance. Again, not everybody agrees with that. A lot

170
00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,520
Speaker 1: of people think privatization is the answer. So that's why

171
00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,920
Speaker 1: employer based coverage covers more than half of the population

172
00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,320
Speaker 1: for part or all the calendar year. And then there's

173
00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,000
Speaker 1: Medicaid nineteen point four percent, Medicare sixteen point seven percent,

174
00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,600
Speaker 1: what's called direct purchase, I go out and buy my

175
00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:27,120
Speaker 1: own stuff sixteen point two percent of people either thought

176
00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:28,920
Speaker 1: that was a good idea or were forced to do

177
00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,760
Speaker 1: it through things like Cobra right, or military coverage four

178
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,160
Speaker 1: point six percent. You're going to lay your life on

179
00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,200
Speaker 1: the line for a country. The least we can do is,

180
00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:41,760
Speaker 1: you know, not put you in the poorhouse if you

181
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,640
Speaker 1: have cancer, although that still happens. But this number doesn't

182
00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:50,000
Speaker 1: answer everything, because despite all these different kind of partial

183
00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,800
Speaker 1: band aids for keeping people alive and healthy, twenty eight

184
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,160
Speaker 1: point five million people in this country have no form

185
00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,600
Speaker 1: of health insurance whatsoever all the year, all the livelong day.

186
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, eight point eight percent. At least that's as of

187
00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:06,320
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen.

188
00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,480
Speaker 1: Right, that number may have gone up or down a

189
00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,120
Speaker 1: little bit, but it hasn't moved a ton yet. It

190
00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,319
Speaker 1: may very well in the near future, in the next

191
00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:18,960
Speaker 1: three ten years. Right.

192
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,480
Speaker 3: Not to mention the fact that I don't know how

193
00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,679
Speaker 3: this figures is the puzzle here, but I think it's

194
00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,360
Speaker 3: fascinating and it certainly should be part of the conversation.

195
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,760
Speaker 3: It costs an average of thirty one thousand dollars per

196
00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:36,720
Speaker 3: inmate per year to incarcerate an individual. It's like tax

197
00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,760
Speaker 3: payer money. So it's just crazy to me that if

198
00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,360
Speaker 3: we're paying that much to incartrate a person, yet people

199
00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,760
Speaker 3: outside of the prison system, we wouldn't even consider spending

200
00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,360
Speaker 3: that much on them and their well being.

201
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:50,280
Speaker 2: It is.

202
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,880
Speaker 1: It is cheaper, or it has been for a number

203
00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:59,280
Speaker 1: of years. It is cheaper for the United States, on

204
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,160
Speaker 1: a state and federal level to send someone to community

205
00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,960
Speaker 1: college for two to four years and pay for their

206
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,200
Speaker 1: dorm or their apartment than it is to incarcerate them.

207
00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:18,120
Speaker 1: And that's something I learned via Little Wayne originally true story,

208
00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,640
Speaker 1: but yeah, but it's true. It's we can get into

209
00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,960
Speaker 1: the political reasons for that, because the argument here doesn't

210
00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,280
Speaker 1: bear out when you look at the math. It bears

211
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,040
Speaker 1: out when you look at what people like voting for, right,

212
00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,520
Speaker 1: which is a little bit of a simplified way to

213
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,680
Speaker 1: say it, but it's true, and it's a big business.

214
00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,760
Speaker 1: The US locks up a lot of people. I was

215
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,000
Speaker 1: thinking about this earlier. I was going to say they

216
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,040
Speaker 1: lock up tons of people, and then I read back

217
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,000
Speaker 1: through it, and it's true. If you do the math

218
00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,680
Speaker 1: on how much a single person weighs, and you do

219
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,840
Speaker 1: the math on how many people are locked up, we

220
00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,839
Speaker 1: are literally locking up tons and tons of people, tons

221
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,600
Speaker 1: of human flesh. Our prison population rate is roughly seven

222
00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,000
Speaker 1: hundred per one hundred thousand. That makes it the second

223
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,679
Speaker 1: highest incarceration rate of two hundred and twenty two countries

224
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,840
Speaker 1: tracked by the Institute for Criminal Policy Research, and that

225
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:15,560
Speaker 1: is such a large net to cast the ICPR study

226
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,440
Speaker 1: right now, the UN doesn't recognize two hundred and twenty

227
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,280
Speaker 1: two countries, so they gave everybody a chance. This country

228
00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,480
Speaker 1: locks up a half million more than China, and that

229
00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,560
Speaker 1: has a population five times larger than the US. This country,

230
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:33,720
Speaker 1: and this is a statistic that many of us have

231
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,320
Speaker 1: heard before, and I wish it wasn't still true. This

232
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,400
Speaker 1: country holds twenty five percent of the world's prison population.

233
00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:46,679
Speaker 1: Twenty five percent. Yeah, it's worse though, because the statistic

234
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,720
Speaker 1: that follows right after, we're only five percent of the

235
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,960
Speaker 1: people in the world, which means that, if you think

236
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,760
Speaker 1: about it, just from living here, you have one of

237
00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,760
Speaker 1: the highest chances in the world of going to prison.

238
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,800
Speaker 2: Yep, Okay, So what was it we said, three hundred

239
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,040
Speaker 2: and twenty seven something million people in the United States. Well,

240
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,720
Speaker 2: the American criminal justice system holds within it incarcerated human

241
00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:16,920
Speaker 2: beings two point three million people. That's crazy. There are

242
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,840
Speaker 2: and it holds them in over seventeen hundred state prisons.

243
00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,760
Speaker 2: There are one hundred and two federal prisons, and then

244
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:28,600
Speaker 2: eighteen over eighteen hundred juvenile correctional facilities. Then there are

245
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,080
Speaker 2: also like that. Okay, and that's just starting right. Then

246
00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,960
Speaker 2: you go down another level. You get to the local jails.

247
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,360
Speaker 2: They wouldn't even be really called a prison, just a jail,

248
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,920
Speaker 2: a holding cell kind of thing. There are three thy

249
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,800
Speaker 2: one hundred and sixty three of those, and there are

250
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,720
Speaker 2: also eighty Native American like they're called Indian country jails.

251
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,560
Speaker 2: Well that's not even talk, dude. We're not even thinking

252
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,440
Speaker 2: about military prisons, the brig yeah, and the oh, the

253
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,720
Speaker 2: detention facilities like immigration facilities.

254
00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:00,920
Speaker 3: The bizarre and labyrinthine network of detention centers. Yeah, that's

255
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,680
Speaker 3: that's that's a whole on other conversation.

256
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,480
Speaker 1: There, one of which was famously until quite recently, a

257
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:10,840
Speaker 1: series of fences set up under a bridge. Yeah, civil

258
00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:16,280
Speaker 1: commitment centers, state psychiatric hospitals, which are still around, mostly privatized,

259
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:17,920
Speaker 1: but still exists to some degree.

260
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,840
Speaker 2: You can be held without against your will in those facilities.

261
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:25,440
Speaker 1: And prisons in US territories which occupy an even more

262
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:33,000
Speaker 1: murky legal space, including Gano, including Guantanamo. Yeah, every year

263
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,200
Speaker 1: six hundred and twenty six thousand people walk out of prison,

264
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,720
Speaker 1: but they go to jail ten point six million times

265
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:47,800
Speaker 1: each year. Jail and prison are as as many people will,

266
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,600
Speaker 1: as many people attest. Jail and prison are two very

267
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:56,440
Speaker 1: different beasts. Jail churn is pretty high because most people

268
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,720
Speaker 1: in jail have not been convicted.

269
00:15:58,960 --> 00:15:59,680
Speaker 2: They're just waiting.

270
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:05,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, they've been arrested. They're desperately using that trope and fiction.

271
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,480
Speaker 1: They're one phone call to get a bail bondsman, or

272
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,000
Speaker 1: to get some money together to get out before they

273
00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,080
Speaker 1: have to go to trial, or in many, many, many,

274
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:19,480
Speaker 1: many cases, they are too poor. And you know, justice

275
00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,720
Speaker 1: is a slot machine that only takes dollars.

276
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,720
Speaker 3: So if jail is like a holiday, in prison is

277
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:30,120
Speaker 3: like a living community of some kind in an apartment building.

278
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,040
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, So again, jail is like kind of like

279
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,560
Speaker 1: a slot machine that only takes dollars. So other people

280
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,080
Speaker 1: are too poor to make bail and they have to

281
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,400
Speaker 1: stay behind bars until their trial. And we've all seen

282
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,960
Speaker 1: these stories, right, There's somebody who has arrested for something.

283
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,360
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a case, wrong place, wrong time, but they

284
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,600
Speaker 1: can't make bail, and so they're in jail for what months,

285
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,080
Speaker 1: and then they go to trial and the judge is like,

286
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:56,040
Speaker 1: who is this guy?

287
00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,000
Speaker 3: Not to mention they're in jail because they've done something.

288
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,360
Speaker 3: Then they can't make bail, so then they lose their

289
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,040
Speaker 3: jobs because they're sitting in jail, and it just creates

290
00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,159
Speaker 3: this cycle of being able to not afford anything that

291
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,920
Speaker 3: the system foists upon you, especially then once you are

292
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,080
Speaker 3: convicted and then have some kind of you know, fee

293
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,240
Speaker 3: schedule that you have to deal with, but you've lost

294
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,639
Speaker 3: your job and become unemployable again, probably another conversation, but

295
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,439
Speaker 3: it's a problematic cycle.

296
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,439
Speaker 1: And this number might surprise some folks. Met you recently

297
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,240
Speaker 1: gave us the statistics of some people in jail. But

298
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,199
Speaker 1: of those people in jail, only about one hundred and

299
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,960
Speaker 1: fifty thousand or so on any given day have actually

300
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,320
Speaker 1: been convicted, and most of them to take your holiday

301
00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:45,159
Speaker 1: in comparison or the apartment comparisons. They're generally serving sentences

302
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,480
Speaker 1: that are less than a year, and almost half a

303
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,600
Speaker 1: million people are locked up purely because of drug offenses.

304
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,840
Speaker 1: So mainstream media, right, we all know and love our

305
00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:02,679
Speaker 1: favorite fiction films and stories, often depicts the incarcerated population

306
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,639
Speaker 1: in some in some wild extremes, right, there are two

307
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:12,239
Speaker 1: or three big stereotypes we see people incarcerated. There are

308
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,480
Speaker 1: either woefully disenfranchised, you know what I mean, The system

309
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,640
Speaker 1: is broken. It crushed my life, you know, I got

310
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:23,320
Speaker 1: arrested wrongfully, but I lost everything while I was waiting

311
00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,600
Speaker 1: for my day in court. Or there might be the

312
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:30,160
Speaker 1: other extreme where these people are absolute suicide squad level

313
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:35,119
Speaker 1: monsters and the state is being too nice by putting

314
00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,639
Speaker 1: these people in time out for life and should just

315
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,879
Speaker 1: kill them. And then you'll see things like red and

316
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,960
Speaker 1: Shawshank redemption right, who who has attained wisdom or higher

317
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:50,199
Speaker 1: enlightenment despite their physical confines and stuff like that. But

318
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,040
Speaker 1: regardless of how these people are depicted in fiction, life

319
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,000
Speaker 1: on the inside is not like what you'll see in

320
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,879
Speaker 1: a lot of those things. Like what's that HBO series

321
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,600
Speaker 1: OZ got praised for being a little more realistic than most.

322
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, that show is insanely good. It was also like

323
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,680
Speaker 3: one of the early big HBO dramas, So it has

324
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,480
Speaker 3: this look of like video where it looks very real,

325
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,000
Speaker 3: almost like you're watching a play, but it's like it's

326
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,480
Speaker 3: I love everything about that shows it's super great.

327
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 2: Does it hold up?

328
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:20,240
Speaker 1: It does?

329
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:20,800
Speaker 2: Okay?

330
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:22,560
Speaker 3: I mean I don't know. It's a little data because

331
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,320
Speaker 3: it's super square, like the framing or whatever. And also

332
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 3: some of the some of the performances are a little

333
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,200
Speaker 3: over the top, but no, the stuff that it covers,

334
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,159
Speaker 3: it's very theatrical, but it's also very grounded in reality.

335
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,000
Speaker 1: Mmm, sort of a harbinger of the gritty realism of

336
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:43,960
Speaker 1: Orange is the New Black. So, regardless of any of

337
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,280
Speaker 1: us listening now, regardless of our stance on the prison system,

338
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,320
Speaker 1: whether you think it's chugging right along, whether it's the

339
00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,600
Speaker 1: best we can do, even if it's not perfect, whether

340
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 1: you think it's broken, whether you think it's a system

341
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 1: meant to oppress certain demographics here in this country. It's

342
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 1: clear that crime does continue inside the walls of penitentiaries.

343
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,520
Speaker 1: There are gangs everywhere. People love all the vices still,

344
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, drugs, sensual pleasure, old fashioned violence,

345
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 1: and the chances of that kind of violence are always

346
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 1: somewhere in the cards. But to activist policymakers and others,

347
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,560
Speaker 1: there is another criminal in the mix here. And it's

348
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,520
Speaker 1: not a criminal that you're going to see on America's

349
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,639
Speaker 1: Most Wanted. It's not a criminal that you will see

350
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:37,760
Speaker 1: in a highly publicized OJ Simpson level trial, right.

351
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,679
Speaker 2: No, you would see them in the ads in between

352
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:41,560
Speaker 2: those programs.

353
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 1: That's right, we're talking about insurance companies. Wait, our insurance

354
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:51,439
Speaker 1: companies criminals. You might be saying, kind of, let's have

355
00:20:51,480 --> 00:21:03,199
Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor. Is where it gets crazy.

356
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,440
Speaker 1: So well, let's call this part healthcare, profit and public perception.

357
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,600
Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, the Bureau of Justice Statistics released a

358
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,199
Speaker 1: study and they said that nearly half of the people

359
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 1: held in jails suffer from some sort of mental illness,

360
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,879
Speaker 1: and more than a quarter have a severe condition such

361
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,679
Speaker 1: as bipolar disorder. And again as we as we noted

362
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:34,440
Speaker 1: with jail, many of the people in jail are just waiting,

363
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,359
Speaker 1: they're churning through. They haven't been convicted and sentenced to

364
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 1: that misdemeanor. That's less than a year. But in the

365
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,560
Speaker 1: same year twenty seventeen, the Bureau reported that about two

366
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 1: thirds of sentenced inmates in jail suffer from drug addiction

367
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 1: or dependency. And that conclusion they made this is the

368
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 1: scary part. It comes from numbers in two thousand and

369
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 1: seven to two thousand and nine, which means it largely

370
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: does not account for the opioid crisis. Wow.

371
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Wow, that's uh, that's tough. Well, well, here's the

372
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,160
Speaker 2: other thing. So you've got a life sentence, let's say

373
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 2: you're going to be in prison for a long time.

374
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 2: You're also going to be dealing with just what happens

375
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 2: to your body as you're getting older. Just age related stuff, right,

376
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,439
Speaker 2: like all kinds of diseases, all kinds of stuff that

377
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,880
Speaker 2: you need medication for, stuff that you need maybe even

378
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 2: some I don't know, recovery, physical recovery from and work on.

379
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 2: And these people are dealing with that. There's also you know,

380
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 2: we talked about the addiction, the mental illness, and when

381
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 2: you put these together, kind of as you're saying, Ben

382
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 2: getting older, being addicted to something, probably maybe continuing to

383
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,360
Speaker 2: be addicted while you're in while you're incarcerated, and then

384
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 2: also you know, having to deal with the mental illness.

385
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 2: It all kind of just adds up into this pretty

386
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 2: brutal thing where you're going to be probably experiencing withdrawal symptoms,

387
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 2: especially early on in your situation there. So, like I guess,

388
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,360
Speaker 2: the first year of prison, which is what you were saying,

389
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 2: a lot of people actually only spend about a year

390
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 2: and there it can be extremely rough on your health.

391
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,479
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean imagine if you are, if

392
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: you are encountering withdrawal symptoms from some sort of drug addiction,

393
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 1: and the medical staff on hand says we're not going

394
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 1: to give you your drug of choice, but then another

395
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,120
Speaker 1: inmate sidles up to you, maybe in the yard, and says, hey,

396
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 1: I can help you out if you do something for me.

397
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: Dangerous times right, And now, I guess we can take

398
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: a moment to talk about the politics here, because I'm

399
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: sure as we're exploring this, a lot of us are thinking, well,

400
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 1: people aren't in prison for good behavior. No one has

401
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: ever helped an old lady across the street so many

402
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 1: times that they got put in jail, you know what

403
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: I mean. You don't go there for being an honors student.

404
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: In terms of like civic mindedness, so there's this kind

405
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 1: of callous or colder argument that says, well, why should

406
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,199
Speaker 1: we take care of these people if they are a

407
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 1: detriment to society? Because of that attitude or because of

408
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 1: that you know, that school of thought, it's very difficult

409
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: for politicians to argue in favor of advocacy for people

410
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: who have medical conditions while they are incarcerated, you know

411
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 1: what I mean. Like back in the eighties especially, it

412
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 1: was political suicide to say we should still treat human

413
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: beings as humans, because then it would be immediately equated

414
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: with being quote unquote soft on crime. And another difficulty

415
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 1: there a twists there is that it's very difficult in

416
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: many cases for felons to vote. So until the demographics

417
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: that are far more likely to get arrested and far

418
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: more likely to serve longer sentences are voting in larger

419
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: proportionate numbers, then politicians aren't going to go out of

420
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: their way to be I mean largely. It's true. It's

421
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,959
Speaker 1: sad and it's kind of disgusting, but they're not going

422
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: to go out of the way to represent someone who

423
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: they don't see as capable of handing a benefit to them.

424
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,199
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a huge downfall of our species, right,

425
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 1: everything is quid pro quo and stuff you should Know

426
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: has a great episode about how altruism doesn't really exist,

427
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: but no one wants to hear that.

428
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 2: That's depressing, right, yeah, So well, really fast, I just

429
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 2: want to talk about something with you guys. Something I

430
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 2: don't know if this even really fits in the show,

431
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 2: but something I think we can apply to this is

432
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 2: the fact that unless you have experienced something in your life,

433
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 2: or you know someone directly who has experienced something, it's

434
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,479
Speaker 2: very difficult to have true empathy about a situation. And

435
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 2: I take this to the concept of quitting smoking or

436
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 2: attempting to quit smoking. Now, just hear me out really fast.

437
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 2: For a lot of people who have never been addicted

438
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 2: to something like nicotine and attempted and failed to quit

439
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 2: that substance or something like that, a lot of people

440
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 2: will have, at least I've noticed in my experience very

441
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 2: negative thoughts on alternatives to quitting smoking even or you know,

442
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 2: other things like that, Like they have an immediate negative

443
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: reaction to something like that unless you are someone who

444
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 2: has actually attempted and failed to do something like quitting smoking,

445
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 2: And so I wonder if it's the same thing with

446
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 2: the prison system and a lot of these other things

447
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: where unless you have that direct experience with it, it's

448
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 2: very difficult to even see it outside of the negative

449
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 2: context which has already built up around it societally experiential knowledge.

450
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 1: Right, like the uh like how the stem cell conversation

451
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: changed when people who were politicians opposed to stem cell

452
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: research realized the benefits it could have for people that

453
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: they personally knew.

454
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean I think so, I mean even

455
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 2: the CBD oil, Yes, absolutely, you know, I.

456
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: Think it's it's weird because here in here in Georgia, Atlanta, Georgia,

457
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: where we record this podcast, uh one, regardless of where

458
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 1: you fall in drug criminalization. Uh. I thought it was

459
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: hilarious when we had some we had some politicians when

460
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: the CBDU the Medical Medicinal CBD Bill or whatever was called,

461
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 1: was first past, the politicians who approved of it spent

462
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 1: the majority of their time assuring everyone that no one

463
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: would enjoy it. I don't worry. No one is gonna

464
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: have fun. This is just for people with epilepsy.

465
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 2: So you're sure you cannot get high.

466
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 1: If I thought people would have anything like a good

467
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: time on this, I would be burning down the capitol.

468
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. I'm still mad that people

469
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: Fox trot.

470
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 3: He is burning down the capitol. When you smoke a

471
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 3: bunch of weed in the capitol, Uh.

472
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 1: Little known fact. Yeah, it's part of the that's part

473
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: of the Georgia congressional slang.

474
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 3: They say their prayer and then they spark up a doobie.

475
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, guy Fox, I don't know if you remember him.

476
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 2: He thought that barrel was actually full of doobies.

477
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: Yeah no, yeah, yeah, yeahah yes and right. So the

478
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: the reason the politics matter here, the reason they're so fundamental,

479
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: is because this means that exkews the budget allocations for

480
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: a lot of jails and pin tentries. You want to

481
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: spend a lot of money securing the place, right, making

482
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: it hard to walk out of. But why would you

483
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: spend money on healthcare, especially if it means you could

484
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: be accused of going soft on crime. This problem is

485
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: exacerbated in jails that are in rural or poor counties,

486
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: which happens a lot. Jails will tend to be in

487
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: rural and poor counties because they can be advertised as

488
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: a source of jobs right for an ailing community. So

489
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: administrators complain, you know, they say, look, I don't have

490
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: the resources. I can't make the numbers work. How am

491
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: I supposed to hire, train, and supervise doctors and nurses

492
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: right like GPS, let alone specialized medical care? Like, what

493
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,959
Speaker 1: what on earth am I going to be able to

494
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: do to incentivize a medical health professional to work with me?

495
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: I certainly can't pay her or him as much as

496
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: they can make in the private sector, So increasingly they

497
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: turn to for profit companies. And this is a field

498
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: of healthcare that a lot of people have probably not

499
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: heard about. I don't know if any of us heard

500
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: about it beforehand. I certainly didn't. Correctional health care, so

501
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: think of like blue Cross, Blue Shield, just for people

502
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: in lock up. They pledge to deliver quality care, while

503
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: very very attractive to administrators, containing cost. It's part of

504
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: a trend that started back in the nineteen eighties during

505
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: the Reagan administration, where the idea was that in general,

506
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: we will start to privatize things. We as a country

507
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: in general will privatize things because we'll be cutting the

508
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: fat and having cost as the Having costs as the

509
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: bottom line will encourage more nimbles, slimmed down and more

510
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: efficient operations. This trend accelerated after the nineties, right when

511
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: we had a ton of tough sentencing laws like mandatory

512
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: sentencing and stuff. The Violent Crime Control Law Enforcement Act

513
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four made the number of people in jails

514
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: and prisons jump from about three hundred thousand to more

515
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: than two million today. Yeah so.

516
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 3: According to a twenty eighteen study from the Pew Charitable Trusts,

517
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 3: more than half of the states hire private companies to

518
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 3: provide at least some of that prison healthcare services. Those

519
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 3: prison healthcare services the companies they negotiate these multi year

520
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 3: contracts with each jail and prison that they serve. Medical

521
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 3: staff and prescription drugs, and outside services such as hospital stays,

522
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 3: constitute the bulk the line to share of these costs. Oftentimes,

523
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 3: the companies receive a per day, per individual rate, so

524
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 3: profits depend on keeping costs below that amount. Sometimes contracts

525
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 3: include provisions that increase a company's potential profit if it

526
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 3: holds down transfers to hospitals or to other outside providers. Ben,

527
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 3: can you help us unpack this because I don't know

528
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 3: about you, but this seems a little on the shady side.

529
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: For sure, your spider sense is correct. Sometimes this stuff

530
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: can get lost in the legal language. But this is

531
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: a very important turn in the story here. The companies,

532
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: these private health providers for prisons have negotiated these things

533
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: that say, look, we will make more money if everyone

534
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: is and this is just for sake of argument. If

535
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:52,239
Speaker 1: everyone is limited to four hundred dollars a day, the

536
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: medical care for all these inmates is four hundred dollars

537
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: per person per day or less, and as probably is

538
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: less than we will make another profit. Furthermore, if x

539
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: number of people or less than that go to a

540
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: hospital per year or to a specialist off site, then

541
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: we'll make another We'll make another windfall, another bonus. So

542
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: we know that private health insurance follows the same thing.

543
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: It's not a new game, right. They want to avoid

544
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: unnecessary tests and procedures. You probably hear that a lot

545
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: back in the old death panel argument days. But this

546
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: is very important. This means that if someone in jail

547
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: or in prison believes that their health or even their

548
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: life is in jeopardy. They can't do what any of

549
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: us do. They can't just call nine to one one.

550
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: They can't, you know, they can't play the great medical

551
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: debt game that's killing this country and pay eleven grand

552
00:33:54,680 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: for an ambulance over time. Instead, they have to hope

553
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: and pray. If they are the religious type, that someone

554
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: in the prison believes that they are exhibiting the signs

555
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: of a stroke and they have to hope and pray

556
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 1: that it's a minor stroke, or they have to hope

557
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 1: and pray that the diabetes doesn't catch up to them

558
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: and they get some help before they go into insulin shock.

559
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 1: There are no comprehensive statistics about the prevalence of private

560
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: healthcare companies in jail, and that makes sense because why

561
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: would you want people to know that outside of maybe

562
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: a trade show where you're pitching to a warden. There

563
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: you go, well, we do have some stuff. We know

564
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: that the National Commission on Correctional Healthcare has accredited these

565
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: programs around the country, and seventy percent of the jails

566
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: it inspects outsource their medical services and when they outsource.

567
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: These for profit companies have a pretty big chunk of

568
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: those contracts.

569
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: Oh boy, So let's get into what we know about

570
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 2: some of this stuff. Just it's gonna get even deeper

571
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 2: and darker. After a quick word from our sponsor, we're back.

572
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: So we've been talking in general terms about private companies, right,

573
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 1: private healthcare companies. But let's name a few because we

574
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: have some names.

575
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 2: Right. So we've got at least one big one, and

576
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 2: it used to be called Correct Care Solutions, and that's

577
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,399
Speaker 2: the one that I had heard of before, but it's

578
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 2: now called well Path. And there's also Corizon Health. It

579
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 2: looks like Horizon but with a C. Those are two

580
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:41,760
Speaker 2: of the bigger players.

581
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 3: Is that like a kronat kind of Yeah?

582
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 2: Okay, so it's on the horizon, but it's correction. It's

583
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:50,720
Speaker 2: the Correction Horizon of health.

584
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 1: It used to be called Correctional Medical Services Incorporated, and

585
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: then before that it was Prison Health Services Incorporated. Kind

586
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: of like Backwater or Academi or EXE. Just changed up

587
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: a little bit, Just change the names. It'll be fine,

588
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: it'll be grand. What an adventure.

589
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there's a reason why those names changed. Just

590
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 2: like you said with Blackwater, well, with Blackwater, it was

591
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 2: about public perception, right with some scandals that were occurring.

592
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 2: When we say scandals, we mean pretty much murder that

593
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 2: was occurring. With these companies, it's because they've been sued

594
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 2: a lot. The two of them together combined have been

595
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 2: sued about fifteen hundred times in the past past five years,

596
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 2: and a lot of those were over, you know, accusations

597
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 2: of things like neglect and malpractice and in dozens of

598
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: cases even wrongful injury or up to death. Carizon, one

599
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 2: of those companies, was the defendant in more than one

600
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 2: thousand cases, so of those fifteen hundred.

601
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because Karison cares for about one hundred

602
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 1: and eighty thousand people day to day. Well Passed, in contrast,

603
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: handles about two hundred and fifty thousand people day to day. Wow.

604
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: Representatives for both companies say, well, these lawsuits are often flimsy, frivolous,

605
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: or inconclusive, and we know, you know again, people aren't

606
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: in jail or prison for being on their best behavior.

607
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: From what we understand, the vast majority of people are

608
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: inmates are just trying to get through their time and

609
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: get out and the other side of the bars gives

610
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 1: us a different perspective. The prison guards can assure us

611
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: that there are multiple people who do have mental health problems.

612
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 1: You know, they're flinging pooh. Maybe there's some people malingering,

613
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 1: which means faking an illness simply to change up their

614
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: routine to get out somewhere, you know what I mean.

615
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: But be that as it may, it doesn't negate the

616
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: fact that these cases of wrongful injury or death have

617
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: been decreed. Legitimate public interest lawyers have brought class action

618
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: suits alleging inadequate healthcare across the entire system. There are multiple,

619
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: multiple examples of this, unfortunately some which end in death.

620
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: But we've got let's just do one example from Arizona.

621
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 3: So in Arizona, civil rights groups filed a class action

622
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 3: suit in twenty twelve. A year later, after the state

623
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 3: passed legislation privatizing prison healthcare, it signed a contract with

624
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 3: Coruson to provide medical services in those prisons. Then, in

625
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 3: twenty fifteen, a federal district court that sought to resolve

626
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 3: the suit approved a settlement in which the state pledged

627
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 3: to overhaul its care. But last June, Judge David Duncan

628
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 3: found that quote, widespread and systematic failures remain end quote

629
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 3: and held the state in contempt, issuing it fines of

630
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 3: more than one million dollars.

631
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 1: And that's interesting because when they're defending themselves, the private

632
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: prison insurance companies will say that part of their contract

633
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: indemnifies the state or you know, the party from the

634
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: government that they're contracting with, indemnifies them from legal costs.

635
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 1: But in the case of Arizona, the judge wasn't having

636
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,959
Speaker 1: it and essentially said, no, don't put this on them.

637
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: You're the ones who agreed to let this happen. In

638
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,280
Speaker 1: the meantime, by the way, while these things are winding

639
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: and wending through the court system, people are dying, you know,

640
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: and many of whom committed crimes. But the ones who

641
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: are dying were not sentenced to the death penalty. And

642
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 1: the question then becomes, is this sentencing people to death?

643
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: Which I know is a really messed up way to

644
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: look at it, but it's not unfair. According to Steve Cole,

645
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: a journalist wrote an excellent article for The New Yorker

646
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, evidence from cases across the country suggests

647
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: that four decades of policy failures in both healthcare and

648
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 1: criminal justice reform have left a largely neglected population vulnerable

649
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: and at times at risk, and that for profit companies,

650
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 1: which were promoted as a solution have instead become an

651
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: integral part of a troubled system. They were supposed to

652
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: fix it back in the eighties, and all they did

653
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: was fix their profit margins.

654
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, and now it's become too big to fail in

655
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: a way you can't really remove it.

656
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 1: It even goes even goes down to the food, right,

657
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 1: because we joke about food all the time. But food's

658
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: part of your health.

659
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 2: It's a massive part of your health. Yo, are what

660
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 2: you eat, buddy, And it really is like the simplest

661
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 2: thing to say that. My wife, My wife and I

662
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 2: have an ongoing joke argument about that about how important

663
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 2: your food is. She likes to eat a lot more

664
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 2: healthy than I do. And I just like the good

665
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 2: tasting stuff, you know, you know.

666
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: Stuff that you evolved to seek out, right.

667
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, the sugar, salt, yeah, mostly the fats, like the bacons.

668
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 3: You also like the heat, though, don't you.

669
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 2: Man, Yeah, give me the spicy bacon.

670
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 3: You're a spicy boy.

671
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 2: I'm good to go. But yeah, it's just one of

672
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: those things where it is true, if you're eating more

673
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 2: healthy or getting more nutrients, you are in a better

674
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 2: spot for all the other stuff and you're not going

675
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 2: to have as many issues, at least theoretically. But we

676
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 2: got a caller, someone a listener called in from Alabama

677
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: and told us about this story where there was a

678
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,320
Speaker 2: local sheriff's office that was getting they would make money

679
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 2: off the top of whatever money they didn't spend on

680
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: food for the prison system within the county. And we

681
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 2: haven't looked into it fully yet. We do have a

682
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 2: story here from NPR about if sheriff in Alabama that

683
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,280
Speaker 2: the caller was mentioning he took almost a million dollars

684
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,240
Speaker 2: seven and fifty thousand dollars legally. He took this money

685
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 2: to buy a beach house. Money that was meant to

686
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 2: feed inmates within his county.

687
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, Atawa County, SHAREFF Todd intrickin Todd, if you're listening,

688
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy your beach house. What Todd did

689
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 1: was pocket this, you know, seven hundred and fifty large

690
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: that was supposed to feed inmates of the jail that

691
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 1: he supervised. Then, according to the Birmingham News, he used

692
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 1: the money that he pocketed or the majority of it

693
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,760
Speaker 1: to buy a beach house. Because Alabama has this law

694
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: that allows sheriffs to quote keep and retain unspent money

695
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 1: from jail food provision accounts. So sheriffs across the state

696
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 1: of Alabama take the money as personal income.

697
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 3: Like a bonus. Yeah, for like doing a good job,

698
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 3: because they had like a surplus.

699
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: Kind of Well, it's not attached to doing a good job.

700
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: It's just a I mean, if the good job is

701
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: defined as taking less money to feed people, then they

702
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: can take it. There. It goes both ways, though. People

703
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: are quick to point out if they have a shortfall

704
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: in the budget in that regard, then the sheriff as

705
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: an individual's personally held liable for covering the gap. But

706
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: turns out that they don't really go out of their

707
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 1: way to spend that much on feeding their inmates.

708
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really depressing and messed up sheriff.

709
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: Also, we don't know how many people are doing this,

710
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: because sheriffs across the state apparently have done this for

711
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: a long time. That law dates back to the Depression,

712
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: and according to the Southern Center for Human Rights quote,

713
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: it is presently unknown how much money sheriffs across the

714
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 1: state have taken because most do not report it as

715
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: income on state financial disclosure forms.

716
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're not required to specify any money that

717
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 2: you take in in this way above two hundred and

718
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,280
Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars a year. And he brought in seven

719
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty.

720
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 1: We have to wonder what they're what they're eating.

721
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 2: You know.

722
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 1: It makes me think of do you guys remember the

723
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: controversy of neutral loaf? Do you remember hearing about that?

724
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 3: Yeah? I do. It was like a food substitute, kind

725
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 3: of like soilent green.

726
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of. It's like the the Okay, you know

727
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: that there's meat loaf, there's neutral loaf, which is also

728
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 1: called meal loaf because it is it's this unholy amalgamation

729
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: of vegetables, fruit, meat, bread, other grains baked into a

730
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: solid loaf. The ingredients vary, but there is something called

731
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 1: dairy blend.

732
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 3: Sounds like fruitcake to me, but.

733
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: With fruitcake they at least keep the shape of the

734
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: fruits right in there.

735
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

736
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 3: Well, they dice and kind of like also candied and

737
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 3: gummy looking.

738
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: But they're identifiably fruit, right. I see what you're saying.

739
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 3: This is just like ground into a pulp into a

740
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 3: paste and then that's baked into kind of this amalgam

741
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 3: of god knows.

742
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: What, right, yeah, oh god, And that one even went

743
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 1: to court several times. In a case called Gordon versus Barnett,

744
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: the District Court for the Western District of Washington ruled

745
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: that someone got all the way to court arguing that

746
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: eating neutral loaf was cruel and unusual punishment. And although

747
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 1: the court ruled that it was not cruel and unusual,

748
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: it was a punishment and that prisoners should be entitled

749
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: to due process before they have to eat it. It's

750
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 1: so bad that you have to get like the law

751
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: involved for you to be forced to eat this, at

752
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 1: least according to that judge.

753
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 2: Geez, just a just to jump back in this, I'm

754
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 2: reading a little bit further down in the article. It

755
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 2: gives a little more context to this. So apparently this

756
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 2: sheriff and how did we say it in and tracing

757
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 2: entricn entrican.

758
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: Like the demon, he's in Albata.

759
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 2: Oh that's ooh, that's really cool. So yeah, so he's

760
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 2: in Alabama's he's Entrican. So when he came into office,

761
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 2: the previous sheriff died while he was in office. Okay,

762
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 2: and this this money, this money that's meant for inmates

763
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,760
Speaker 2: for food, that account got drained and it was given

764
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 2: to the family of that sheriff that just passed, and

765
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 2: that was about one hundred and fifty thousand dollars or

766
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,800
Speaker 2: something to that effect. All that money was taken out.

767
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 2: So then this current sheriff had to take out a

768
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 2: personal loan one hundred and fifty thousand dollars just to

769
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 2: keep the inmates fed. And he was paying off that

770
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: for years and years and years. So it is interesting

771
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 2: how the tides kind of turned with him having to

772
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 2: take out this initial loan to him getting a beach

773
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,320
Speaker 2: you know, a beach house, and then ultimately owning property

774
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 2: that's worth over one point seven million dollars through you know,

775
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 2: all these various things that's he and his wife. And

776
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 2: then also the fact that he makes about ninety three

777
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 2: thousand dollars a year as the sheriff of a county,

778
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 2: just base level, base level, and then he's able to

779
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: make the bonus essentially on this one account that is

780
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 2: directly tied to the food that would go to inmates.

781
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 2: That is puzzling and strange, and I will never fully

782
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 2: understand that.

783
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 1: And it is legal, it is completely not against the law, yepet.

784
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 1: So this this is such a brief look, but it

785
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: leads us to the question what is to be done.

786
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,439
Speaker 1: The problem comes down to profit, but it also comes

787
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: down to accountability. Right the healthcare providers say, you know, again,

788
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: we take care of the legal cost in many cases.

789
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: But also this is a ten billion plus dollar industry

790
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 1: and those companies are obligated to seek profit on behalf

791
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 1: of their owners. According to David Fothy, the director of

792
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:13,240
Speaker 1: the National Prison Project at the ACLU American Civil Liberties Union,

793
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: these companies have compelling incentives to cut costs and staff,

794
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 1: and that can result to denying care. And what is

795
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: literally and I don't know if he was going for

796
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 1: a pun here a captive market like they can't they

797
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 1: cannot switch insurance providers, right, They can't say, well, this

798
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: doctor stinks and they misdiagnosed my appendicitis and I almost died.

799
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: I want someone else, and they'll say, no, sorry, you're

800
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 1: gonna have to stick with this person for at least

801
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: the next two to five years that you're locked up.

802
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 1: And Fathi says, you know, he says, I don't mean

803
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: to suggest that government run prison healthcare is perfect. It's

804
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: often appallingly deficient. But at least when the government is

805
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 1: providing the service, there's some measure of oversight, some measure

806
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 1: of democratic control, and a lot of people may say, well,

807
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: this is a rock and a hard place situation, because

808
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 1: neither is particularly great for people incarcerated. But then there's

809
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: something weird that we didn't talk about because of the

810
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 1: way that the law changed to guarantee. For much of

811
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: US history, the idea of prisoners receiving medical care was

812
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 1: just like bonkers, why would you do that? You know

813
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 1: what I mean. But as the law has changed, even

814
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: though the prison system is terrible for people who are

815
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 1: caught up in it, and even though it often increases

816
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: a person's chances of committing a crime or recidivism, which

817
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 1: is when they return to prison, inmates rights to healthcare

818
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:53,320
Speaker 1: have actually expanded in comparison to the public the inmates.

819
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 1: The rulings that gave inmates a right to access to healthcare,

820
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: at least on paper, have never been applied to free citizens.

821
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: I want to say that one more time, inmates access

822
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: to a doctor, to healthcare have been guaranteed in this country,

823
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: at least on paper. If you are listening to this

824
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 1: and you are not in prison, in that regard, the

825
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 1: people incarcerated have more rights than you do.

826
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,879
Speaker 2: It doesn't. Yeah, Yeah, it makes you wonder. It makes

827
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 2: you wonder if sometimes it would be a better move

828
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,240
Speaker 2: to do something to get incarcerated to get your health back.

829
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 2: If you're in a tight enough spot. That's scary to

830
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 2: think about. And I will have done that, That's what

831
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,399
Speaker 2: I'm saying. I know it has been done. There are

832
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 2: specific examples, but just the fact that that is a

833
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 2: situation you could find yourself in in this country is

834
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 2: baffling and terrifying.

835
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 3: And not even to mention that some people do it

836
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 3: just for shelter, sometimes on purpose.

837
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it doesn't happen all the time, but people

838
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,879
Speaker 1: do go to jail on purpose. Some people go to

839
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: bring in drugs from the outside one way or another,

840
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: probably ingesting it somehow right and then passing it. In

841
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, a guy named Frank Morocco of Amherst, New York,

842
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: was unable to afford healthcare for a rare form of leukemia.

843
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: He was released from prison in twenty twelve. He had

844
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: been in jail for twenty years on felony drug charges.

845
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 1: So he's fifty six years old. So he went in

846
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 1: when he was thirty six. He had leukemi. He had

847
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 1: no way to pay for it. He had been incarcerated

848
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 1: for so long that he walked into a grocery store,

849
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,720
Speaker 1: stepped up to the counter, just stole twenty three bucks

850
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 1: worth of goods in plain sight so that the employees

851
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: could see him, and then walked out. Got arrested on shoplifting,

852
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 1: which violated his supervised release, and he was hoping it

853
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,919
Speaker 1: would land him back in prison so that he could

854
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: get some help with his leukemia.

855
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 2: Did it work.

856
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 1: It was not reported whether Morocco got the treatment, but

857
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,839
Speaker 1: he was released from prison on the shoplifting charge in

858
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 1: April of twenty thirteen.

859
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 2: Wow, well, I guess I hope he did. But again,

860
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,720
Speaker 2: you know, this is such a tough topic because there really,

861
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 2: there really is such a range of humanity that exists

862
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 2: within the prison system, and just of you know, depending

863
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,879
Speaker 2: on your sense of morality, it really affects the way

864
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 2: you're gonna feel about this. It really does. In the

865
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 2: In the end, every single person in a prison everywhere

866
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 2: is a human being that that, you know, and the

867
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 2: best of times and the best of idealism, they deserve

868
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 2: a shot at being healthy. But if that person has

869
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 2: you know, heard another in one way, or you know,

870
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 2: in one fashion or another, it's tough to it's tough

871
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 2: to stomach the thought of them getting better healthcare than

872
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 2: just someone who isn't doing so great financially outside of prison.

873
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:07,240
Speaker 2: This is a really tough topic.

874
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,799
Speaker 1: It is it is. Let's also, I mean, let's take

875
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 1: a step further and say that one of the reasons

876
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 1: the prison system in the US has so many problems

877
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 1: is that it is not a program meant to rehabilitate

878
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,359
Speaker 1: people in along in many ways.

879
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,720
Speaker 2: Makes me think about that Sicko documentary from several years back.

880
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: And we want to hear your take. Thank you for

881
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: taking this strange journey with us. What role do you

882
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: feel private, private medical care or private medical provider should

883
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: play in the US prison system? Is this is this

884
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: something that people incarcerated, you know, somehow deserve, you know?

885
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 1: Is is that just part of the risk that they

886
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: knowingly or unknowingly took when they committed a crime? How

887
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,720
Speaker 1: how would it be a I'm sure we have several

888
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 1: people who are saying, right now, you know that I

889
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 1: pay my taxes, I pay a lot right and I

890
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 1: still struggle to pay my own medical bills. Why should

891
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: this be better for someone else didn't, who didn't obey

892
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 1: the rules of our land. And we don't want to

893
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,720
Speaker 1: say it's necessarily better because I think, as we've illustrated here,

894
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: people are dying from easily preventable conditions in prison exactly.

895
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 1: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't

896
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts. We try to be easy

897
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:37,240
Speaker 1: to find online.

898
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 3: Find this at the handle Conspiracy Stuff, where we exist

899
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 3: on Facebook X and YouTube, on Instagram and TikTok. We're

900
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 3: conspiracy Stuff.

901
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,919
Speaker 2: Show call our number. It's one eight to three three

902
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,759
Speaker 2: std WYTK. Leave a voicemail and.

903
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 5: If you have more to say, we can't wait to

904
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:55,280
Speaker 5: hear from you at our good old fashioned email address

905
00:54:55,360 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 5: where we are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

906
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

907
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:24,319
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

908
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,280
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.