1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: This is Annie and this is Bridget, and you're listening 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: to stuff I've never told you. And today we're going 3 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: to try to answer a question, which is why do 4 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: dudes show you their dicks? Oh? Do be showing there? 5 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: Does that ever happen to you? Twice? I mean twice 6 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: where it's been like, not just some guy on the train, 7 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: like where it's been with just me. Oh god. So first, 8 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: before we get into this, we should say quick trigger warning. 9 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: This is about non consensual showings. So that's what we're 10 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: talking about today. It's pretty gross. Let's get into it. 11 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: So not it didn't happen to you on a train, 12 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: or it happened it was like that you and another 13 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: person in a room together. Yeah. Um, well, it has 14 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 1: happened in a public space like on a train before, 15 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: but I've had two instances where it was more like 16 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: private than that, And one the first time I was eight. 17 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: I was eight years old, and I am just really 18 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: glad that at that age I wasn't sure what was wrong, 19 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 1: but I knew something was wrong and I went and 20 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: got help. I'm very glad that I did. Yeah, did 21 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 1: did they find the guy? They did find the guy. 22 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: He was a friend of the family. He's someone I knew, 23 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: and it often is. And that's one thing that really 24 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: bothers me when the argument comes up about why didn't 25 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: you report something earlier when we're talking about sexual assault 26 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: or things like this is because it's it's almost always 27 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: someone that you know, and there's kind of this pressure 28 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: to like not make waves that is so much stronger 29 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: than you might think it is. And also just like 30 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: you know this person and you know that not only 31 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: will you might you might not be believed. It will 32 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: be difficult to prove if you succeed potentially ruin this 33 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: person's life, this person that you know. So it does 34 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: it really bothers Well, he ruined his own life, sure, 35 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,679 Speaker 1: but that's how you feel exactly Like. It really upsets 36 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: me when people are like, yeah, why didn't you report earlier? 37 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: There's so many things that go into it. It is 38 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: such a complex situation. Um, And when you're a kid 39 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: like I was a kid, and they were just like, 40 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: this is not gonna happen again. You move on, right, 41 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. If you do move on, I would 42 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: imagine maybe it could stick with you forever. Yeah, it does, 43 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: clearly because I do remember it very well, but as 44 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: a kid, I guess I sort of thought it was 45 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: just this weird thing and uh, I'm going to go 46 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: about my my kid business. Yeah, I can't even imagine. 47 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it's bad enough when it happens as an adult, 48 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 1: grown woman, I can't even imagine how confusing and disorienting 49 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: and destabilizing that is to be a little kid and 50 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: to have that happened. You know, maybe it's even before 51 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: you have your birds and the bees talk. You don't 52 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: even really understand what is going on, but you know 53 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: it doesn't feel right, and Jesus, I mean I I 54 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: just really can't just so hard. It's scary and confusing. Yeah, 55 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: I yeah, I was very I remember being very scared 56 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: and it it is. It is interesting, and we're going 57 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: to talk more into this because we are trying to 58 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: get to why this is a thing at all. But 59 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: I do remember kind of the sense from the person 60 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: that I would be excited or happy, and we were 61 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: going to talk about that because there is kind of 62 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: a psychology going on there. How about you have you 63 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: ever had Yeah, it's happened a few times. I lived 64 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: in New York for a while and something about living 65 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: in Brooklyn it was the hotbed of indecent exposure. I 66 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: don't know what what the deal was. It happened once 67 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: in a really traumatic way on the subway. I actually 68 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: didn't even live in New York at the time. I 69 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: was just visiting New York and I was standing on 70 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: the train and a woman next to me was being 71 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: really weird, right, and I was standing holding on as 72 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: a bar, and she was making eye contact with me 73 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: and sort of tugging at me, and I thought, this 74 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: woman is out of her mind, and I couldn't quite 75 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: figure out what was going on. And then I realized 76 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: the guy behind me had exposed himself and was actually 77 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: going off in the back of my winter coat, and 78 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: she was trying to get my attention. But of course 79 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: it is New York's a your you know, and somebody 80 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: tries to make eye contact with you on the subway, 81 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: You're like, let me not make eye contact back. That 82 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: was the time. That was pretty bad. Yeah, this memory 83 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: just reminds me of this woman who kind of became 84 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: a New York City folk hero. On the subway, she 85 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: a man exposed himself to her, and when she realized 86 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: what was happening, she was not having it. She really 87 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: called him out in a way that I imagine. I mean, 88 00:04:58,040 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: I wish I had the courage to do that, but 89 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: she made such a scene that it got other people 90 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: on the subway invested in getting this guy off the subway. 91 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: Here's a little bit of how it sounded. Are done 92 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: for tonight I was starting. You can kind of see 93 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: why she became a bit of a New York City 94 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: lady folk hero in that situation. Oh. Absolutely. It happened 95 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: when I was in high school. I went to an 96 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: all girls Catholic school, and so sometimes there would be 97 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: perverts and creeps who would do things to, you know, 98 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: my classmates and I when we were out and about 99 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: after school. Probably found it titilated or something. But there 100 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: was a guy who would be to drove around and 101 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 1: he would roll down his window and ask, do you 102 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: know where broad Street is? You know where Main Street is? 103 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: And he would have a map and when he would 104 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: go to his car window, he would remove the map 105 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: and it would be his junk. When it happened when 106 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: when I was with friends, I did not internalize it 107 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: as a sexually threatening experience. It was just so out 108 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: of the norm for how people behaved that we laughed 109 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: and like pointed, and my friend was like, oh, it's 110 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: so small, like we and he drove away and we 111 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: and I just thought like, Oh, what a weird, funny 112 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: thing that happened. I told the story several times in 113 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: a way that was humorous, like a joke. And then 114 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: I remember hearing a classmate it happened to her the 115 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: same guy, but while she was alone, and that was 116 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: the first time I realized, Oh, that's actually scary and threatening, 117 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: and it's so interesting how that dynamic changed it. When 118 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: it was me with a group of my classmates, we 119 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: laughed and pointed us at his small, weird looking dick. 120 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 1: But when I heard about that that same situation with 121 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: my friend being alone, I was like, she could have 122 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: been her, Like it was just so different. So that 123 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: was the time. It has happened a couple of times, 124 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: but that was the time that sticks out at me 125 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: the most, hearing about it secondhand from a friend when 126 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: she was alone. It's happened a whole host of times 127 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: on the subway, on the street, that kind of thing, 128 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: but that's the time that release too. Yeah, And there 129 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 1: have been a lot of high profile cases of powerful 130 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: men exposing themselves to women. Lately, you've got Harvey Weinstein, 131 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: Luis k Charlie Rose, Matt Lower. There is a laundry 132 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: list of people doing this. Um. I did read somewhere 133 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: that this is not new behavior. It's centuries old and 134 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: it's not confined to the entertainment industry obviously, but we 135 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: have been hearing a lot more about it, and we 136 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: were curious a science to why this would happen. A 137 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: study conducted by the Barner Group and Seen found that 138 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: out of one thousand respondents, one in four men did 139 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: not consider exposing themselves are masturbating in front of people 140 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: sexual harassment? What yeah for the same study found that 141 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: women are ten to twenty more likely to consider something 142 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: sexual harassment. So we have a disconnect. I feel like, 143 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: if your dick is out and it's not was not 144 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: an agreed upon a thing, it's sexual harassment. You're not 145 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: at a nude beach and someone was not like, oh, 146 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: let's see what in those pants? If it's out, faults up? 147 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: If it's out up, oh, you're probably right. Not like that, 148 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Who are these men who 149 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: don't think it's sexual harassment to take out your genitals? 150 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: And pleasure yourself in front of someone who didn't ask 151 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: for that. Well, you're like, I know who it is. 152 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: It's Louis c. K, it's Matt Lowerd, it's Charlie Rose, 153 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: it's Harvey Weinstein. Yeah, it's more men than I would 154 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: have guessed, apparently, and we are, Yeah, we're gonna look 155 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: more into that. And if you're wondering here in the US, 156 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: most states do have indecent exposure laws that make exposing 157 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: your genitals to someone else without their consent for the 158 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: purposes of sexual gratification illegal. If touching the other person 159 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: is involved at the same time, it could be escalated 160 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: to a sexual assault charge. The typical punishment for indecent 161 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: exposure is a misdemeanor charge, possibly a fine, maybe even 162 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: jail time, and or requirement to register as a sex offender. 163 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: So the law does not agree with these one in 164 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: four men, yeah, one in four men, homies, homies, homies 165 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: get it together. Yeah. One time president of the American 166 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: psycho Analytic Association suspects it has to do with deniability. Quote. 167 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: It could also be a kind of strange plausible deniability. 168 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: It's a kind of disavowal, a kind of pernicious defense 169 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: mechanism that allows a man to know that if that 170 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: he did something on one level, but they are essentially 171 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: telling themselves a story that they are not doing anything 172 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: so bad. He could think to himself, well, I didn't 173 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: rape anyone, which is true in a broader sense, but 174 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: it is a twisted defense. So this wine of thinking 175 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 1: I thought was so prevalent in the Lewis k situation. 176 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: Like when I read that report, it really sounded like 177 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: he was able to jud deify his behavior by saying 178 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: it's not rape. And I actually saw a lot of people, frankly, 179 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: people that I respected, say things like, oh, well, it's 180 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: not like he attacked them, or it's not like he 181 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: abused them, or it's not like he forced himself on them, 182 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: and they sort of discount the fact that that kind 183 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: of act wrapped up at it is the ability to 184 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: make people say exactly that because you aren't necessarily touching them. 185 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: It's the kind of thing that people who choose that 186 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: as their mode of unacceptable non consensual sexual behavior, they 187 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: are doing so because of that, because it has plausible 188 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: deniability baked right into it. And again, when I actually 189 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: sat down and read the report of what happened at 190 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: the Louis p K situation. Two of the women he 191 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: did this too. One of the things that stuck out 192 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: to me in their stories was that he invited them 193 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: back to his hotel room and it was the winter times. 194 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: They were all bundled up, and he was already had 195 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: his pants down and was masturbating before they took off 196 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: their winter codes. That means they just gotten into the room. 197 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: And if you think that's acceptable sexual behavior, like, there's 198 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: a real pathology on display there. Yeah, it kind of 199 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: almost feels like a calculation that maybe some people are 200 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: making subconsciously. But this is as far as like I 201 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: can get away with before something that I cannot even 202 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: begin to convince myself as correct. Like I can get 203 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: away with this behavior, but I can't get away with 204 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: this one. It's messed up thinking and it's wrong. But 205 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: I wonder if there is an element of that to it. Oh, 206 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: I'm sure there was. When I was in college, there 207 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: was a guy who was a complete sexual predator. And 208 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: the way that he would sort of get around it, 209 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: the way that he avoided being ostracized by our entire 210 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: you know, seen, was that he basically quote unquote would 211 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: only quote unquote his words, have sex with women while 212 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: they were passed out drunk. And so for him, the 213 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: way that he was able to sort of say like, oh, 214 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: I'm not clocking them over the head and like dragging 215 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: them back to my apartment, it would be like, oh, 216 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: I'm just having sex with women who are too drunk 217 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: to say no. And that was his m o to 218 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: avoid being seen as a quote rapist rapist, which of 219 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: course he was, but that he operated within he was 220 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: he was such a good sexual predator that he operated 221 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 1: within this area where he knew enough people will be like, well, 222 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: if she was drunk and I saw them dancing earlier 223 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,839 Speaker 1: to the night, maybe it wasn't actually raped. He specifically 224 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: trafficked in that kind of sexual abuse because he knew 225 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: that people like these defendors, like the supporters, would be like, oh, 226 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: it's not that bad. Yeah, that is the mark of 227 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: a good predator. Absolutely, this is a lot of women 228 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: have been impacted by this. Jennifer Wright over at Bizarre 229 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: wrote um about this time. She tweeted, quote, hey women, 230 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: retweet if you've ever been shown a penis you did 231 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: not want or expect to see. And it has over 232 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 1: two hundred and five thousand retweets. A lot of the 233 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: story shared were about this happening at a young age. 234 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: Some male commenters, of course, responded with variations of you're 235 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: a part of the problem, ladies. Butter boobs though are 236 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: the always popular slitt Wait, how are you the slot 237 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,839 Speaker 1: if someone if someone is showing you there? Petis I know, right, 238 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense, doesn't make sense. Your argument is flawed. 239 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: Sexist Twitter responder right said of the whole situation. What 240 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: surprises me, if anything can surprise me anymore about this, 241 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: is that not taking your genitals out in front of 242 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: a colleague doesn't strike me as a high bar on 243 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: being a decent person. It strikes me as honestly a 244 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: really low bar. However, I suppose it is exponentially higher 245 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,959 Speaker 1: than no bar whatsoever, which until very recently was the 246 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: world some privileged men were operating in. Yeah, that's just 247 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: so depressing. That's so depressing, it really is. What's even 248 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: more depressing to me is the fact that from I'm 249 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: D women reported men masturating in front of them to 250 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: the Everyday Sexism Project in Lauren Bates wrote over at 251 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: The guard It about this quote, girls are growing up 252 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: in a world where this is such a widespread experience 253 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: that some don't even see it as something that is unusual. 254 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: It's just part of being a woman. I want to 255 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: pull my hair out. That is awful. Yeah. The fact 256 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: that women are internalizing this as something that is not 257 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: out of the ordinary is really infuriating. Yeah, and that's 258 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: why I like, I had two separate categories when you 259 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: asked me, right, Like, there are these two that stand 260 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: out to me, and then there's all these other times 261 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: where it just happened and I sort of went about 262 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: my day because it is just part of being a 263 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: woman and it should not be at all. So we've 264 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: established that this is a problem, but the question still 265 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: remains why Why exactly? And we'll delve more into that 266 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: after a quick break for a word from our sponsor, 267 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank you sponsor. The there hasn't been 268 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: a lot of science looking into why this specifically, maybe, 269 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: but there has been research into exhibitionism and exhibition disorder, 270 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: which is a paraphilic disorder defined scientifically as recurrent, intense, 271 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,119 Speaker 1: sexually arousing fantasies urges, our behaviors that are distressing, our disabling, 272 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: and that involved inanimate objects. Children are non consenting. Adults 273 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: are suffering our humulation of oneself or the partner with 274 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: the potential to cause harm from their Exhibitionism is categorized 275 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: based on whether the exhibition is prefers to expose themselves 276 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: to children adults are both. The behavior that we're talking 277 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: about here, According to some, but not all, does fall 278 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: under the exhibitionism umbrella. And yes, some exhibitionists are turned 279 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: on by their own shame, perhaps even addicted to it. 280 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: It's a cycle of feeling the shame. Yeah, going back 281 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: to that experience in high school with my friends and 282 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: we saw that guy of a car, I almost thought 283 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: that he was into the fact that we were sort 284 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: of laughing and pointing at him and belittling him, and 285 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: that we we weren't bursting into tears. The fact that 286 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: we were pointing and laughing. It seemed to be part 287 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: of it. You're glad to say. Another thing that people 288 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: who engage in this behavior often come with is narcissistic traits, 289 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: a lack of both empathy and inhibition. According to the 290 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: executive director of the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center Ginus Garamela, 291 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: this type of exhibitionist behavior falls into the same spectrum 292 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: of a delusional entitlement to do whatever you want no 293 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: matter what everyone else thinks, and then some level of 294 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: embarrassing or shaming the person that you're doing it in 295 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: front of. And she goes on to say for people 296 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: who have been victimized in this way, things that people 297 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: tend to express is that they feel stupid for feeling 298 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: anything because they know that people are physically assaulted and raped, 299 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: and they feel like, why am I having such a 300 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: reaction when they didn't touch me. So we really talk 301 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: about how the feelings are very similar whether or not 302 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: you were touched. It's the same thing with people who 303 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: were forced to watch pornography or listen to things. It 304 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: doesn't always have to be physical to have the harmful 305 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: psychological impact. Yeah, but that another way, I bet a 306 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: lot of people can understand why having a sexually explicit 307 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: conversation with a minor on the internet is not okay. 308 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: Even though that minor is not touched, it's still impactful. 309 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: It still has a impact on them even though you 310 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 1: never touched them or see them whatever. Yeah, exactly. And 311 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 1: a doctor or Darryl Turner, who is a forensic psychologist 312 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: with a focus on sexual offenses. Thinks that quote for 313 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: a lot of guys who are exposing themselves, as ridiculous 314 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: as it seems, is about the act of exposing yourself 315 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: to someone who isn't expecting it. That is sexually arousing. 316 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: It's power play, it's control. The high profile cases we mentioned, 317 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: they are acting out on impulses and not in voluntary compulsions, 318 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 1: which is an important distinction, and California's sex therapist Alexandra 319 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: Kada Hawk has told Slate something similar. Exhibitionists purposefully looked 320 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: to shock their victims because they are angry. They are 321 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: not looking to make friends or go on a date. 322 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: These are acts of revenge against women. These men are 323 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: in saying the body part that is most threatening to 324 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,199 Speaker 1: a female, and in doing so, they're acting out what 325 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: is called sexualized hostility or eroticized rage against their prey. 326 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 1: That look of fear or humiliation on women is arousing 327 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: to them. We see clinically that these men feel wildly inadequate, 328 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: and going back to Luis k, he said as much. 329 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: In his statement, he said, what I learned later in 330 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: life is that when you have power over another person, 331 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: asking them to look at your dick, isn't a question. 332 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,959 Speaker 1: It's a predicament for them. The power I had over 333 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: these women is that they admired me, and I wielded 334 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: that power irresponsibly. Yeah, the c K situation, Emily and 335 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: I did an episode on it. I was really conflicted. 336 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: His statement seemed to illustrate a wider understanding of why 337 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: what he did was so faked up and how he, 338 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: you know, really kind of stuffed the trajectory of these 339 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: women's lives, like some of some of them were budding 340 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: comedians and just left the industry altogether. On the other hand, 341 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: it almost felt kind of designed to make me pity him, 342 00:18:57,920 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: And it's sort of like what you're getting at, right, 343 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: idea that he kind of realized that this was about 344 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: some up, dark, sad, gross thing inside of him, and 345 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: by writing about it in his statement, it almost on 346 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: the one hand, I was like, Oh, he really gets it, 347 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: But then it's like, is he just using that as 348 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: a shield, Like, Oh, I'm pathetic and up and you know, 349 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 1: I need to work it out. So I felt so 350 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: conflicted and bothered by by his statement. And I also 351 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: think because on his show and in his stand up 352 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: he talks about feelings of like how shame and sex 353 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: or sort of connected. And I think when I found 354 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: out that he was doing this to women and have 355 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: been doing it for a long time, and had been 356 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: very hostile to people who brought it up and interviews 357 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: journalists this and that, a fellow comedian, Tig Nataro, you 358 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: know how how he went to great lengths to cover 359 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: this up about himself but then was open about it 360 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: on stage. It just was a really confusing, conflicting situation. 361 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 1: I think that we know. I think I don't want 362 00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: to put words in anybody else's mouth. I think that 363 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: I gave him too much credit because he seemed like 364 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: someone who understood his dark impulses, and I don't think 365 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: that excuses his behavior, right, Like, I guess what I'm saying. 366 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: I'm sort of working at how how I'm feeling in 367 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: the moment, But I guess what I'm saying is that 368 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 1: I think that he perhaps expected a level of forgiveness 369 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: because he is someone who both is open about his 370 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: deep dark and talked about his deep dark in his statement. 371 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,719 Speaker 1: But if you're an adult man and you don't know 372 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: that inviting women back to your hotel room, women who 373 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: are your colleagues, women who you work with, women who 374 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: admire you, taking out your dick and non consensually ding 375 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: off at them and then using your power and your 376 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: money and your status to swish them and anybody else 377 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: who asked you about at anybody else who questions you about, 378 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: at anybody else, even a journalist who's doing her job 379 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: to question that. There are so many stories of him 380 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: getting people blacklisted, journalists getting blacklisted from the red carpet, 381 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: people not talking to journalists, him using his agent to 382 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: shake people down. Like if you get to be an 383 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: adult who is rich and powerful and famous and you 384 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,959 Speaker 1: don't know that's wrong, like golf forever, Like I like 385 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 1: part of me wants to be sympathetic to Oh he's 386 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: dark and twisted, but it's seems so deliberate. Yeah, that 387 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: was a tangent. I loved Luisy K for a while, 388 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: and that situation really held up a mirror both to 389 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 1: me to like what I'm willing to sort of excuse 390 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: and be okay with. Yeah, it just really made me think, well, 391 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: predators are good, Like predators know how to do something 392 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: horrible to someone else and in the end have you 393 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: feel sorry for them? Yeah, absolutely agree. And going back 394 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: to sort of what we were talking about earlier of 395 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: the whole it's not rape, but it's not there wasn't 396 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: touching involved. Conscious Suffers, who is a therapist with a 397 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: specialty and problematic sexual behavior, has this to say. I 398 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: like to use the metaphor that if you're attacker, it 399 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: hit you over the head with a frying pan, you 400 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: wouldn't call it cooking. Just because the invent event evolved 401 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: genitals doesn't make it sexual. The person used masturbation as 402 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: a weapon no different than a gun. It is violence, 403 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: so it is an attack. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure 404 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: there's someone listening right now who is thinking he just 405 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: showed me as penis he just off near me, he 406 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: just touched my boobs, or like there's someone out there 407 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: thinking that something that happened to them wasn't that bad 408 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: and it was that bad. Like if you feel like 409 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: it was that bad, it was that bad. And I 410 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: think as women, we are whether it's our pain, whether 411 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: it's our physical pain, or whether it's something traumatic would 412 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 1: happen to us. I think we are conditioned to it's 413 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: not that bad and to put it in a little 414 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: category of I don't need to deal with it. I 415 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: don't want to make a fuss. I don't wanna make 416 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: a bother. But yeah, we don't want to make waves. 417 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: But then you can't lock something away and not deal 418 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: with because it always comes up. And so the same 419 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: way that fifteen year old bridget maybe laugh when that 420 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: guy showed her and her friends his dick, I still 421 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: think it at it like it didn't go It didn't 422 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: go anywhere. It didn't. It's still with me. We lie 423 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: to ourselves and tell ourselves that it's not that bad 424 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: because we don't want to make waves, and we're just 425 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: sort of increasing the burden on ourselves and we shouldn't. 426 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: We shouldn't have to do that. No, we shouldn't. We're 427 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: gonna take one more quick break for a word from 428 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: our sponsor. We're gonna keep digging into this. You know, 429 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: I'm pissed, we're getting worked up. Let's find Louis c K. 430 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: We've got something to say. We knock on the door. 431 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: You don't know who we are, but you know who 432 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: you are, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. During that break, 433 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: we did not go track down Louis c K and 434 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: bang on his door. In case you were curious. Yeah, 435 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna have to take a really long break, do 436 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: some digging. Yes, this seems like the beginning of like 437 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: a vigilante group of women who like go get justice 438 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: on men who are harassers and abusers. Like this is 439 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: how those things start. Well, if something happens, So Louis 440 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: s k, I'm afraid they're going to suspect for suspects, 441 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: We've got it on records. They're not very good a criminals. 442 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: They made a whole podcast about what the bands first, 443 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: We've got to find him. Oh boy, okay. So researchers 444 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: who were looking into this affirmed that many men who 445 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: are exhibitionists do have sex dist views of women, are 446 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: probably looking to reaffirm their masculinity, and or may have 447 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: experienced abuse in the past. There are treatments available to exhibitionists, 448 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: namely medication and or psychotherapy, perhaps cognitive behavioral therapy to 449 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: identify triggers and alternate ways of coping, but most don't 450 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: seek these out until they are caught. A blog post 451 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: on Psychology Today suggests that men who masturbate in front 452 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: of women do it out of quote intolerable anxiety and 453 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: a need to reassure themselves that their penis ak their 454 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: manhood is acceptable, and their heads. Although perhaps on an 455 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,479 Speaker 1: unconscious level, they have a fantasy that women will be 456 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: excited to witness such a thing. The actress sues the 457 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 1: anxiety around their masculinity, at least for a little bit, 458 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 1: and that is the man's primary goal in this scenario. 459 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: This blog post argues not to humiliate the woman. She 460 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 1: is being used to reflect back with the man desires 461 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: to see. So she's just like a vessel or like 462 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: a mirror. Yeah, and so in a kind of way, 463 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: it's not even really about her. It is because she's 464 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: there and it's part of it. It is taking something 465 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: away from that situation herself. But it seems like what 466 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: they're saying there is that it's just she is a 467 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: tool to work out something inside of himself. Men are 468 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: complex creatures. I'll tell you that they're Rand's making a 469 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: lot of like ringing hand trying. I'm just trying to 470 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: like get my like wrap my head around that, because 471 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: oh boy, yeah, there certainly is a lot at play here. 472 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: And like I said at the beginning, when this happened 473 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 1: to me when I was young, I definitely got the 474 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: sense from that guy that he thought this was going 475 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: to be a great experience for all involved. So I 476 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: think there is a level of yeah, you're you're not 477 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: a person. Whatever woman they're doing this in front of 478 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: is no longer a person. It is a tool or 479 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: something to use to make something easier or better inside yourself. 480 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: Something that you mentioned that struck with me is this 481 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 1: idea that men who do this don't usually get help 482 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: until it's too late. I would have had so much 483 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: more respect for people like Louisy k if he had said, 484 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: you know, this is gonna come out sooner or later. 485 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: Because he waited until it was already out. Sure, I 486 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 1: feel like people give him credit for getting ahead of it. 487 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: He didn't. It was like a thing for a very 488 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: long time. I would have so much more respect for 489 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: these people if they said, I have this thing I 490 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: need to work out. Why wait until it gets worse. 491 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: I need to be honest with myself and the people 492 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: are aunt me and get help. I want someone to 493 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: not wait until there's a blind item on jezz Ball 494 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: about who was this famous comedian masturbating in front of people. 495 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: I want someone to think to themselves, I'm not on 496 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: the right path, and I need to put a stop 497 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: to it before it gets worse. Yeah, I would have 498 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 1: so much more respect for them if they did that 499 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: and they didn't wait until they had to deal with it, right, 500 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: And that's I think that's part of the problem when 501 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: you were talking about like Lucy Kay's statement is that 502 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 1: it was if he had known these things, he did 503 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 1: wait until he was caught to do something about it. 504 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,719 Speaker 1: And I have a relationship in my life with someone 505 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: who uses pity very much so that you cannot judge them. 506 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: You have to pity them, and it's just so that 507 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: they don't have to face the consequences for their actions. 508 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: Weaponized pity. That was basically having a sputtering and ability 509 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 1: to express myself. That was what I was trying to 510 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: get at. It's weaponized pity. It's this idea that because 511 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: I have expressed and I'm in a vulnerable situation, I'm 512 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: going through this tough time, I'm dealing with this hard thing. 513 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: I had a bad childhood. I grew up a fat 514 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: nerd and nobody wanted to do whatever it is. It's 515 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: this way of using people's pity as a way of 516 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: getting out of taking responsibility for your own stuff and 517 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: I think that I was trying. I couldn't express it earlier, 518 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: but that exactly what it is. It's it's weaponized pity. Yeah, 519 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: I think we see that play out a lot, probably 520 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: a lot more than we realize. I think there's a 521 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: lot going on here, and we could use more more 522 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: research because this is a problem, clearly, and we've just 523 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: been dealing with it and we need to find some solutions. Well, 524 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: I have one pretty easy solution. Don't show your dick 525 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: to anybody who doesn't want to see your dick. That 526 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: is classic. Just assume they don't want to see your 527 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: dick in a workplace setting. They probably don't want to 528 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: see your dick on the subway. They probably don't want 529 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: to see your dick. And I would say, unless they've 530 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: asked to see it, they probably don't want to see it. 531 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: Just just a you know, if you if you have 532 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: to ask, here's my advice, speaking of like stuff your 533 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: mom ever told you if you have to ask, air 534 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: on the side, if she doesn't want to see it, 535 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: it's my advice. That's good advice. Yeah, we didn't even 536 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: get into um dick picks. I could I could do 537 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: an art installation. I could wall paper the walls in 538 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: my apartment with dick picks unsolicited. I've gotten so many 539 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,239 Speaker 1: do want be tm I but your girls on the market. Uh, 540 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: I just don't understand it. Like I can show you 541 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: conversations where it goes from, Hey, oh, I see you 542 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: like to surf? Where where? What beach was that? That 543 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: looks like a nice beach to penis in so so quickly, 544 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: so quickly? What do they do? Here's my theory. I 545 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: think a guy suspects I said my penis picture unslictened 546 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: to a hundred girls, one might be into it. I 547 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: think it's I think it's a numbers game. That's what 548 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: I think that I could see that it's wild to 549 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: think that this is just another thing that, oh, what 550 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: we learned to do with because I remember it's kind 551 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: of like that fear and snapchat that you'll just get 552 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: a dick pick one day or I can't remember what 553 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: was that other kind of like I used to call 554 00:29:55,360 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: it Russian roulette chat roulette chat roulette, Yeah, and was 555 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: all it was all like disembodied dicks masturbating. That was 556 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: what it was like. Basically that masturbating dot com was 557 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: basically what it was yeah, and it was just a 558 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: thing we all knew. Yeah, So I think perhaps that 559 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: plays together with what we've been talking about today. I 560 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: didn't really even think about, Yeah, how many unsolicited dick pics? Girl, 561 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: I'll show you some off off my because I have 562 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: some stories and it's ridiculous and I don't get it. 563 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: There's something about getting sent an unsolicited dick pick that, 564 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: at least for me, it just kind of makes me wonder, 565 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: what is it about me or our interaction that made 566 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: you think that this was okay? Yeah? Well, I wonder 567 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: if it is sort of the same thing where it's 568 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: like you're they're just using you for whatever pleasure, gratification 569 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: or whatever reassurance they need that their penis is okay. 570 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'll say that it does feel very 571 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: hostile to me when I just get one and I'm like, 572 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: I didn't at least ask. Yeah, Like, I personally have 573 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: never been in a situation where it even made since 574 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: like you were saying, like, conversationally, there's nothing in there. 575 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: Almost see if we're having a flirtatious conversation and you're 576 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: like ian hew, Mary flat this into what she thinks, 577 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: I could maybe see that maybe I wouldn't recommend it, 578 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: and I appreciate it, but I understand it the times 579 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: when you're talking about where it's like there's not even 580 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: a logical you can't even follow what like why it's happening. Yeah. Yeah, 581 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: and it's in the context of I find when this happens, 582 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: it's almost always somebody you barely know. Um, Like it's 583 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: one thing if you're in a relationship and maybe you've 584 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: been talking about sexty ng or whatever. But if it 585 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: is just some random dude that you don't know, that, well, no, 586 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: thank you, keep it in your pants. Yeah. The end, 587 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: that's it? Is that so much to ask? I mean, 588 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: it's really I'm not showing my genital to anybody right now. 589 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: That's how it is. Yeah, you almost have to work 590 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: harder to do it. Yes, So yeah, I hope we've 591 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: gotten through to some people. We probably haven't because that 592 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: most of our listeners are already pretty pretty rad. But 593 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: speaking of listeners, we do have listener mail, and both 594 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: of these listener mails are kind of on the longer side. 595 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: Their responses to the episode we did about the vote 596 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: in Ireland, and I wrote as a double and listener 597 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: and a journalist myself, who has been marching for choice 598 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: since I was a teenager in the early nineties, and 599 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: spent April and May campaigning for a yes vote in 600 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: the recent Irish referendum. I really enjoyed and appreciated your 601 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: latest episode. Like thousands of others all over Ireland, I 602 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: went out canvassing with my local group Shout Out to 603 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: the Dublin Bay North Yeah Shout Out, knocking on doors 604 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: all over Dublin and encouraging people to vote yes. It 605 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: was an incredibly stressful and grueling campaign, not least because 606 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: the thought of what a no vote would say about 607 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: our country was basically unbearable. But it was also incredibly rewarding. 608 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: Not only was their enormous camaraderie among the campaigners, who 609 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: all really supported each other, but we got to have 610 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: really good, thoughtful conversations with all sorts of people on 611 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: the doors, including many who were undecided about which way 612 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: to vote. These conversations always left me hopeful that compassion 613 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: and empathy would win the day, as indeed it did. 614 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: People really opened up to us, telling us the most 615 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,239 Speaker 1: personal stories, which were often incredibly moving. I was too 616 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: scared to let myself get too hopeful, But the day 617 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: before the vote, members of my campassing group gathered on 618 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: a local footbridge at the evening rush hour, asking commuters 619 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: to beat for Yes. We had a constant stream of 620 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: beeps and thumbs up and even applause, and it really 621 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: made me feel that my country, or at least my city, 622 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: was on the right side. The same thing happened the 623 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: next day when we gathered on Traffic Island after the 624 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: anti choice crowd took over our bridge to deafening silence 625 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: from drivers. I'm pleased to say Repeal Island as it 626 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: quickly became known, became a hub of joyful support. I 627 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: knew then that whatever the result was, my city was 628 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: full of what we in Dublin would call sound people. 629 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: When the exit poles came in that night showing all 630 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: landside for Yes, my group gathered in a nearby pub, 631 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: hugging and laughing, unable to believe it. The next day, 632 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: after finding out our constituency had returned to seventy yes 633 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: vote with seventy one voter turnout, we gathered in a 634 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: sunny Dublin castle for the result, where we toasted our 635 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: neighbors and ourselves with prosecco. Working on the campaign is 636 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: one of the best things I've ever done, and I'm 637 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: so glad I did it. After the campaign, many of 638 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: my friends and I felt a huge calm down. It 639 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: was like being jet lagged. We were so used to 640 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: being stressed and constantly working, we didn't know how to 641 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: relax anymore. But we're all gradually getting back to normal. 642 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,399 Speaker 1: My canvassing group had a reunion meeting last week where 643 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: we about that abortion is accessible to everyone who needs it, 644 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 1: including migrants and people from marginalized communities of all kinds. 645 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 1: The fight continues, but we're still feeling pretty good about 646 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: what we achieved, as you should. Yea yeah, and that 647 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: first of all, I have that kiddo gave me flashbacks 648 00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: to what I wrote on campaigns, because that feeling is 649 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 1: completely normal, that sort of whiplash feelings of you know, 650 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: balls to the wall, high octane campaign life where you're 651 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: sort of stressed, having good time, kind of stressed a lot, 652 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: and then it's over and you're like, wait, I can 653 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 1: sleep now, you know what? Um, but that's so awesome 654 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 1: and you say like warm with my heart, Yeah me too, 655 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 1: me too. I'm so glad that there are sound people 656 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: out there and then your city, and thank you for 657 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: working on the campaign and making your voice heard. Our 658 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: next letter is from Kaylie. Katie wrote, I Abason mindedly 659 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: puts Minty on today while I was Brau shopping as 660 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: I want to do, and let me tell you, I 661 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: can now tick crying surrounded by ugly beige braws off 662 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: of my list of reactions I've had to the podcast, 663 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: so thanks for that. I was involved in canvassing for 664 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: a yes vote in the referendum, out on the streets, 665 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: talking to people, knocking on doors, manning informations, dolls, writing letters, etcetera. 666 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: The referendum campaign was an all encompassing emotional experience for 667 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: those of us involved. I'm going to attribute crying and 668 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: the double D plus braw aisle to that. I just 669 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: wanted to thank you for covering the topic at all. 670 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: Your episode was so well researched, balance and its delivery. 671 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: I've seen and about a lot of international takes on 672 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: the Wrath in the last few weeks, but I'm a 673 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: fan of the show, so I was great to hear 674 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: something so dear to make at the Spinty stamp. The 675 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,720 Speaker 1: way you talked about Sevito was especially moving and completely 676 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,919 Speaker 1: in line with how we as pro choice activists felt 677 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: about her preventable death and what it meant about our 678 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,399 Speaker 1: places women in Ireland. The Eighth Amendment came in three 679 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,800 Speaker 1: I wasn't due to be born for another decade and 680 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,879 Speaker 1: my mother wasn't even old enough to vote at the time, 681 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 1: yet it essentially reduced our entire beings to nothing more 682 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: than walking wombs as far as the law was concerned. 683 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 1: Growing up, abortion wasn't talked about except in hushed tones, 684 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: normally after seeing the graphic image posted by anti choices 685 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: outside public landmarks on Saturday mornings, or if you heard 686 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: a rumor about a girl in the area who had 687 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: quote gone to England. It's also worth bearing in mind 688 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: that contraception wasn't freely available here until and the morning after. 689 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: Pill didn't become available without prescription and with a very 690 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: judgy consultation from your local GP until terrible. They have 691 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: been activists fighting the Eighth since the eighties, of course, 692 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: but as you mentioned, it wasn't until Sevida's death that 693 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: the issue truly got the attention in mainstream support it deserved, 694 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 1: and that's why I personally started to become invested in 695 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: the issue too. It's worth noting that our victory in 696 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: this referendum is a testament to people power and specifically 697 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: the power of women. Since the result, I've noticed a 698 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 1: lot of politicians from traditionally right leading parties like the 699 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: one that has become the current majority in our government, 700 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,839 Speaker 1: have crept in to try to claim our victory. As 701 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: the story is being retold, decades of work by activists 702 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: are being rebranded by politicians to try and earn them 703 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,959 Speaker 1: voters in the next election, when as recently as last 704 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,919 Speaker 1: year they were not behind the issue. Our tea shock. 705 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,760 Speaker 1: The Irish Prime Minister called the win quote a quiet revolution, 706 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: when in truth there was nothing quiet about it. The 707 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: win for the Yes side was because of us, the 708 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: women of Ireland who were sick of being treated like 709 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: second class citizens, and the men who supported us instead 710 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: of trying to keep us down. It belongs to the 711 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: normal people who marched health strikes, lobbied and fault with 712 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 1: everything they had in them. It belongs to the activist 713 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: groups like ARC, the Abortion Rights Campaign ROSA for Reproductive 714 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: Rights Against Oppression, Sexism and Austerity, the m E r J, 715 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: Migrants and Ethnic Minorities, for reproductive justice to name a few. 716 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,439 Speaker 1: We definitely had the support of some amazing politicians whose 717 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: work can't be discounted, but that came towards the end 718 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 1: of that fight. At its core, the movement was just 719 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: normal women taking to the streets and making their voices heard. 720 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: It was only a quiet revolution to those who weren't 721 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: willing to listen to it. I'm so proud to count 722 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: myself as one of those women, and to be someone 723 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 1: who stood shoulder to shoulder with women and some men 724 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: like that. Change has been a long time coming in Ireland, 725 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: and over the last few years it really seems to 726 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 1: be snowballing. Our next step is to fight for those 727 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: same rights for our Northern Irish sisters. On May I 728 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 1: was in the public courtyard of Dublin Castle but the 729 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,319 Speaker 1: announcement of the referendum results, surrounded by hundreds of others 730 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,359 Speaker 1: who had fought for our Yes vote. We pretty much 731 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:47,759 Speaker 1: knew from the exit polls that it was going to 732 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: go our way, but I needed to hear the official 733 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: announcement before I could be relieved after what happened to 734 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: our neighbors with Brexit and the U S election. Sorry 735 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: to even bring it up girl, me too. I was 736 00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: worried that it would be a no. There was a 737 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,280 Speaker 1: good feeling in the air, but only the day before 738 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: the day of the vote, I had Amanda stall and 739 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: received the most openly hostile reaction I have ever experienced 740 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: while camvtcing to date. When we finally got the news, 741 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: the place exploded. We only got to hear the words 742 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: in Irish Gaelic before we started screaming and hugging, so 743 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,439 Speaker 1: the English announcement got drowned out. Once the initial celebration ended, 744 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: a chance started and together hundreds of us who fought 745 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: to change things changed the name of the woman who 746 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: really changed it all, Sevita. She won't be forgotten. Wow. 747 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,399 Speaker 1: I have chills. I feel like I was there. It's 748 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,839 Speaker 1: inspiring stuff. It's been so wonderful hearing from so many 749 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 1: of our Irish listeners who have stories like this and 750 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: who made this change happen. Definitely. Yeah, I'm so thankful 751 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: that they worked on the campaign and volunteered and just 752 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: really did the work. Yeah. Thank you to both of 753 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: them for writing in, and all of the other listeners 754 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: who have written in. If you would like to write 755 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: to IS, you can Our email is mom Stuff at 756 00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: hosts dot com and find us on Instagram at Stuff 757 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: I've Ever Told to You and on Twitter at mom 758 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:06,280 Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast. And thanks as always to our producers, Dylan 759 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:12,880 Speaker 1: Fagan and Catheine Killian's h