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Speaker 1: On July, Mr Robot returns the USA Network for its

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Speaker 1: second season. Hailed by Rolling Stone as the number one

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Speaker 1: show of and named Best Drama by the Golden Globe

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Speaker 1: and Critics Choice Awards. Mr Robot follows a cyber security

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Speaker 1: engineer who is recruited by the mysterious leader of an

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Speaker 1: underground group determined to bring down the world's largest corporation.

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Speaker 1: But when their hack is a success, the consequences are

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Speaker 1: far greater than they imagined. Starring Rammi Malick and Christian Slater,

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Speaker 1: Mr Robot returns Wednesday July at ten ninth Central only

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Speaker 1: on USA Network. Hey, I'm Chuck and I'm Josh and

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Speaker 1: we're the host of Stuff. You should know, the podcast

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Speaker 1: that's right and if you're into understanding cool and unusual

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Speaker 1: and seemingly ordinary and even boring things that are made interesting,

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Speaker 1: you should check us out. Please and thank you. We're

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Speaker 1: on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play Music, anywhere you get podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff, Mom Never told you. From how stupports

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline and Caroline I can't believe we're here.

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Speaker 1: At the last installment of our rom com summer series.

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Speaker 1: It's been a wild ride, how it has been, indeed,

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Speaker 1: And you know what's part of what has been so

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Speaker 1: fun about doing all of this pop culture research is

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Speaker 1: revisiting movies and themes that I have previously seen or

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Speaker 1: just known about, and uncovering so much hidden meaning and

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Speaker 1: nuance that, like a young Caro didn't know existed or

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Speaker 1: didn't know what it meant, such as well, such as

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Speaker 1: a lot of the early Haze Code era gay character

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Speaker 1: tropes that we see in the thirties and forties specifically,

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Speaker 1: but also of course moving into later decades. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: really loved learning about how the Haze Code and censorship

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Speaker 1: gave way to romantic comedies because we're like, well, we

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Speaker 1: can't can't get directly sexy, so let's just do a

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Speaker 1: little a little slapstick and some jokes, which is actually

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Speaker 1: probably strategies I've had on dates, um might work better

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Speaker 1: on screen than off. Yeah, I mean to to revisit

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Speaker 1: something that we've been talking about through our series. The

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Speaker 1: Haze Code was basically this moral code that existed over

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Speaker 1: Hollywood films that you couldn't say certain things, show certain things,

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Speaker 1: and you obviously couldn't have certain types of characters. And

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Speaker 1: of course all of this encompassed staying away from sex

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Speaker 1: and drugs and all of that dangerous stuff. Hence you

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Speaker 1: do get all of the witty rep artee between characters,

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Speaker 1: which is basically the cornerstone of romantic comedy. And who

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Speaker 1: doesn't love some witty repartee rep bartee. Hello. Um. Before

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Speaker 1: we get into this final episode, though, can we just

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Speaker 1: take a nostalgic look back everything that we've covered, because

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Speaker 1: let's let's see where we started from and where we've arrived.

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Speaker 1: Because we started with rom coms one oh one and

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Speaker 1: really with the Hayze code and talking about how the

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Speaker 1: genre evolved. And then what did we talked about? So

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Speaker 1: then we talked about the independent career woman who basically

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Speaker 1: gets saved by love because she works too much. She's

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Speaker 1: married to her job. Yeah, we talked about people of color,

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Speaker 1: characters of color in rom comms they tend to be

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Speaker 1: shoved off to the side, and how romantic comedies are

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Speaker 1: the most segregated genre in Hollywood. They're super segregated because

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Speaker 1: even when you do have a gay character or a

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Speaker 1: black character or an Asian character, that person is likely

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Speaker 1: going to end up the sidekick, which was another episode

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Speaker 1: we did. Oh yeah, assassy but probably unlovable or undateable

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Speaker 1: sidekick who's just an accessory to propel the protagonist story

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Speaker 1: exactly well. And speaking quickly though, of people of color,

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Speaker 1: one of the studies that we were looking at in

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Speaker 1: this episode just mentioned as an aside that if you

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Speaker 1: look at just crowd scenes in romantic comedies, even those

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Speaker 1: are usually a sea of white people. Well, we did discuss,

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Speaker 1: was it, in the original episode, We did discuss romantic

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Speaker 1: comedies as a type of science fiction. Oh yeah, that's true.

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Speaker 1: So the romcoms clearly happened in a universe or on

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Speaker 1: some sort of plane of existence where uh, people of

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Speaker 1: color are just maybe they're on another planet somewhere. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's like an all white planet where people magically

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Speaker 1: meet and they can have they can afford like giant apartments,

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Speaker 1: even though they write one like magazine column per month,

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Speaker 1: and somehow there are dozens of Matthew McConaughey's just waiting

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Speaker 1: for you. That is funny to imagine that. Um, the

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Speaker 1: typical romantic comedy characters, everyone from a Meg Ryan and

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Speaker 1: a Tom Hanks to Julia Roberts, Richard Gere, Kate Hudson,

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Speaker 1: Matthew McConaughey. That they all exist. It's like the same person.

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Speaker 1: It is funny to imagine that this person is just insane.

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Speaker 1: Well maybe that's the appeal of the ensemble rom com,

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Speaker 1: which I feel like it's kind of the new the

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Speaker 1: newest iteration where you just pack all the stars and

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Speaker 1: all the storylines and into one Valentine's Day or one

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Speaker 1: like why can't I do like an Arbor Day. I

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Speaker 1: would like to see a very arbitrary holiday ensemble rom

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Speaker 1: com an Arbor trary Caroline, My love for You only grows.

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Speaker 1: But today we are closing out this series talking about

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Speaker 1: LGBT rom coms because in the Hollywood mainstream rom com canon,

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Speaker 1: only white people fall in love and only straight people

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Speaker 1: fall in love. I mean, it's a very heteronormative cis

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Speaker 1: gender genre. Yeah, And I mean it's important to talk

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Speaker 1: about how LGBT characters have been portrayed over the decades

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Speaker 1: because even still in more mainstream um more mainstream cinema,

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Speaker 1: and this is changing gradually, especially now that we have

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Speaker 1: merit equality, but gay characters have typically been denied the

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Speaker 1: happy ending they've typically been relegated to that sexless sidekick role.

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Speaker 1: And when you look at Hollywood around the time that

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Speaker 1: the Hayes Code was instituted, really the only way for

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Speaker 1: gay characters to exist, if they existed at all, was

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Speaker 1: through super no negative, awful stereotypes. Well, and I have

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Speaker 1: a feeling that that's obviously not just the Haze Code

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Speaker 1: and religious organizations like the Catholic Legion of Decency that

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Speaker 1: would bring its hammer down, um if any of the

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Speaker 1: films got too racy, but also just the general homophobia

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Speaker 1: of the day. Sure, exactly, And but you had that

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Speaker 1: homophobia institutionalized through the Haze Code and through the Legion

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Speaker 1: of Decency, which labeled LGBT people as deviants sexual deviance.

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Speaker 1: And so just like the Hayese Code forced filmmakers to

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Speaker 1: get creative, like you can't show sex, but you can

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Speaker 1: show the you know, the witty, funny slapstick lead up

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Speaker 1: to sex, like our verbal for play. That's right. Well,

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Speaker 1: filmmakers had to get creative with showing or including gay people.

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Speaker 1: And unfortunately, rather than the the high side of things,

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Speaker 1: which is like oh from censorship, we get romantic comedies

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Speaker 1: which are like cute and fluffy. When it came to

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Speaker 1: LGBT people, it was like, oh, you're the villain. And

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Speaker 1: so one of the first tactics used to navigate this

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Speaker 1: ban was a continuation of a character that Hollywood had

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Speaker 1: created a little earlier leading up to the Haze Code,

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Speaker 1: which is the Cissy. And this character did start to

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Speaker 1: dwindle over the lifespan of the Haze Code simply because

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Speaker 1: the Cissy even was too overtly gay to be depicted

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Speaker 1: on screen. And so basically, in general, if you look

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Speaker 1: at real life outside of the movies, homosexuality was seen

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Speaker 1: as the sort of attack on masculinity and gender norms,

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Speaker 1: which in the nineteen thirties and during the Great Depression

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Speaker 1: was already under attack. You have male breadwinners who are

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Speaker 1: suddenly out of work and unable to provide for their families,

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Speaker 1: and so the Cissy or the Pansy was sort of

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Speaker 1: a way to deal with those anxieties. This was one

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Speaker 1: of Hollywood's first gay stock characters, and this character was

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Speaker 1: portrayed as over the top of feminine lipstick wearing, has

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Speaker 1: a thin mustache and a trim suit and really, now

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Speaker 1: I'm just picturing John Waters. Yeah, I mean they're just

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Speaker 1: two dimensional characters obviously used for a cheap laugh. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's worth noting too that also during

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Speaker 1: this time, even if it's just an implied gayness, only

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Speaker 1: gay men exist, because also, I mean, like we have

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Speaker 1: the psychoanalytical panic um peeking at this point, worrying about

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Speaker 1: like girls hanging out too much together and possibly becoming lesbians. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I think there were still kind of vestiges of

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Speaker 1: that old Boston marriage era assumption that two women can't

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Speaker 1: really do much with each other. So, yeah, they all

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Speaker 1: have barbie crotches. Well. And also it was all men

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Speaker 1: making the movies. Oh yeah. Um. And the second of

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Speaker 1: three basically horrific uh. Stereotypes of gay people that would

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Speaker 1: continue to reverberate forever is portraying gay people as villains

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Speaker 1: or victims. And so in the late nineteen thirties and

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Speaker 1: into the forties, this was basically one of the Okay,

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Speaker 1: I just said that, um. And so in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirties and forties, one of the other ways to navigate

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Speaker 1: around the code was to portray gay people as villains

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Speaker 1: or victims. And this is yet another stereotype that Hollywood

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Speaker 1: helped institutionalize, and whose echoes are still felt in popular culture. Um, basically,

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Speaker 1: gay people were shown to be committing terrible crimes because

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Speaker 1: of their sexual orientation, with the implication that homosexuality leads

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Speaker 1: to insanity. And this is another one of those nuances.

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Speaker 1: It was totally lost on young Caroline watching old movies, like,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that someone was supposed to be gay.

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Speaker 1: I just it was like, oh, it's just a fancy villain. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because in those days, homosexuality was in the diagnostic and

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Speaker 1: statistical manual of mental disorders. So of course they were deviant.

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Speaker 1: Of course they were deviant. Yeah. And Alfred Hitchcock was

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Speaker 1: one filmmaker who definitely leaned heavily on this particular trope.

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Speaker 1: If we look, for example, at the movie Rope. It's

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Speaker 1: based on the real life killers and lovers Nathan Leopold

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Speaker 1: and Richard Lobe who met at college in Chicago, and

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Speaker 1: they kidnapped and killed a boy as an intellectual experiment

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Speaker 1: in staging the perfect crime. Basically, they were evil and weird.

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Speaker 1: Interesting personal side note, my family's lake house in Michigan

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Speaker 1: is right down the street from Lobes family farm, which

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Speaker 1: is now a wedding venue, the Richard Lobe, the Lobe family.

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Speaker 1: There there farm in Michigan which is now it's called

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Speaker 1: Castle Farms. That's right down the street. I grew up

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Speaker 1: driving past it all the time. And didn't he use

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Speaker 1: a similar device in Psycho, where Norman Bates is uh

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Speaker 1: inner evil is sort of quietly attributed to his homosexuality. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean well, and and the reason we get that

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Speaker 1: assumption is because of his close relationship with his mother,

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Speaker 1: with his mother at the same time. Now, I just

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Speaker 1: saw your eyes light up and I backed away. I

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Speaker 1: wanted you to have it. How creepy would it be?

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Speaker 1: Side note if instead of stuff Mom Never told you,

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Speaker 1: this podcast was called stuff mother Never told you. Um,

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Speaker 1: I laugh sort of hollowly, because a lot of people

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Speaker 1: do call it that. We usually it's like stuff your

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Speaker 1: mother never told you. Maybe that's just my father who

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Speaker 1: says that that might be what I'm thinking of. Um.

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Speaker 1: But can we talk about ben Her because another weirdo

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Speaker 1: Christen as a child moment, it was one of my

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Speaker 1: faiths as a kid, and I really, of course did

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Speaker 1: not pick up on the potentially homo erotic relationship between

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Speaker 1: ben Her and his former bff Massala Kristen, he wasn't

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Speaker 1: a bff. Well, initially they were BFFs, and then Massala

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Speaker 1: turns on him and gore Vidal, who partially screenwrote been Her,

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Speaker 1: later got into a public feud via the l A

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Speaker 1: Times Letters section with Charlton Heston when he came out

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Speaker 1: on a documentary called The Celluloid Closet saying, oh, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I I wrote it so that uh, there was, you know,

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Speaker 1: a secret gay relationship between the two. Charlton Heston never knew,

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Speaker 1: but that was always in the background. Well, yeah, gore

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Speaker 1: Vidal said that, Yeah, I was totally meant to be

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Speaker 1: implied that been Her and Massala had been lovers in

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Speaker 1: the past, and then Missala wanted to reignite their relationship

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Speaker 1: and the director was like, totally against this. This is

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Speaker 1: obviously horrific. Gay people are terrible. We can't have them

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Speaker 1: in off films. Um, but Vidal promised to quote, never

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Speaker 1: use the word. There will be nothing overt, but it

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Speaker 1: will be perfectly clear that Massala is in love with

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Speaker 1: beIN Her. And it was so between the lines. Because

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Speaker 1: this was the other tactic of using of how to

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Speaker 1: paint gay characters. It was so between the lines that

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Speaker 1: this biblical movie with gay undertones ended up being a huge,

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Speaker 1: award winning blockbuster. And it's possible that I missed the

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Speaker 1: gay undertones because I, as a child, only saw this

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Speaker 1: movie on Mystery Science Theater, So my only exposure to

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Speaker 1: it was having some robots talk over the movie. That

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Speaker 1: sounds like such a better way to watch it, first

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Speaker 1: of all. Um. Secondly, my childhood memory of watching ben

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Speaker 1: Her is just me zeroing in on their um armor

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Speaker 1: and that they had like the pokey nipples in the

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Speaker 1: in the chest playing. And I don't mean it's justn't

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Speaker 1: been her. I mean in general, armor doesn't need need nipples,

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Speaker 1: I know, and that and that's what I thought as

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Speaker 1: a child, like, huh, those are nipples. I'm what those

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Speaker 1: nipples doing there. I'm feeling strange and I don't know

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Speaker 1: what to call this, but I love that. Like years

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Speaker 1: and years later, Gorbidal, you know, makes this claim, and

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Speaker 1: Charlton Heston writes a letter in to the l A

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Speaker 1: Times it was like you you are doing a disservice

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Speaker 1: to Billy Wilder. And then Gorbodal writes back and he

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, chuck, chill out, and then he and

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Speaker 1: then winky emoji. Yeah, because you know that Charlton Heston

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Speaker 1: would not like be cool like conservative charld and Neston

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Speaker 1: would not have been cool with playing a quietly gay

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Speaker 1: character hashtag masculinity so fragile, But onward we go. That's

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Speaker 1: right because one classic classic film that I super need

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Speaker 1: to get rewatched now as a grown up person that

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Speaker 1: helped weaken the Haze Code was Billy Wilder's classic romantic

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Speaker 1: comedy Some Like It Hot that came out in nine.

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Speaker 1: So basically, cross dressing helped put the first little dents

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Speaker 1: in the armor, the Nippley armor of the Haze Code.

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Speaker 1: The movie features Jack Lemon and Tony Curtis in drag

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Speaker 1: basically the whole time, almost the whole time, fending off

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Speaker 1: male suitors and enjoying a little quality time with Miss

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Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe. And since they spend so much of the

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Speaker 1: movie in drag, the movie was condemned by the Legion

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Speaker 1: of Decency. It was banned in Kansas. Did you know? Um?

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Speaker 1: It also did not give the Haze Codes seal of

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Speaker 1: approval um and Jack Lemon's friends also warned him that

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Speaker 1: he would essentially damage his reputation as a masculine actor

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Speaker 1: by dressing up as a woman. And isn't it his

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Speaker 1: character that's eventually prop posed to buy a guy in

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Speaker 1: the film. Yeah, So basically, another way that this movie

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Speaker 1: ends up toying with gender and presentation is that Lemon's

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Speaker 1: Daphne gets proposed to buy a millionaire and when he

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Speaker 1: rips off his wig and says I'm a man, the

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Speaker 1: millionaire's responses, well, nobody's perfect, which is kind of great.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of a progressive moment. Yeah, but I mean,

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Speaker 1: the studio even brought in a female impersonator named Barbette,

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Speaker 1: according to this great article in any Wire, to teach

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Speaker 1: the men how to walk like women so that they

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Speaker 1: could portray women better on the screen and pass. But

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Speaker 1: Jack Lemon was he had other ideas. But they still

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Speaker 1: dressed up, they cross dressed and would walk around the

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Speaker 1: MGM studio and see if they could get into places. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they went in, which would enrage North Carolina legislators. They

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Speaker 1: went into women's public restrooms to apply either makeup, and

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Speaker 1: when they finally weren't getting really strange looks from people

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Speaker 1: in the in the bathroom, they knew that they could

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Speaker 1: they could pass that they were ready, and I gotta say,

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Speaker 1: Tony Curtis was pretty attractive and drag and who knows,

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Speaker 1: maybe that is what made the Legion of Decency a

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Speaker 1: little uncomfortable because they were like, I don't I don't

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Speaker 1: like how I feeled I looked at him on screen.

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Speaker 1: And with the film coming out in ninety nine, it

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Speaker 1: does seem like it is a reflection of culture starting

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Speaker 1: to slowly, slowly, slowly open up to even the possibility

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Speaker 1: of gay people as people and not just stock characters.

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Speaker 1: Because ten years later you have the Stonewall Riots, and

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Speaker 1: even in the late nineteen fifties, in early nineteen sixties

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Speaker 1: you have the homophile movement, which was a social movement

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Speaker 1: of gay and lesbians essentially asking to be similated into

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Speaker 1: broader culture and to have the same kinds of civil

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Speaker 1: rights um that street people were afforded. Yeah, and in

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Speaker 1: the seventies, finally you mentioned the d s M earlier,

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Speaker 1: homosexuality is removed from the d s M, so it's

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Speaker 1: no longer classified as some sort of mental disorder, but

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Speaker 1: more context. As we moved through our timeline of rom

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Speaker 1: comms in the Defensive Marriage Act has passed DOMA so

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Speaker 1: do you think then that the passage of Doma like

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Speaker 1: essentially so, do you think then that the passage of

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Speaker 1: DOMA took gay rom comms backward? Do you think that

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Speaker 1: we would have seen more had we I mean, obviously,

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Speaker 1: had we had marriage equality earlier? Yeah, I mean I

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Speaker 1: think and and uh. Scholars link so much of the

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Speaker 1: development of gay rom comms to what was going on

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Speaker 1: contextually at the time in society. But um, I don't

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Speaker 1: know that it necessarily took gay rom comm back, but

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Speaker 1: it definitely put a massive stumbling blog because, of course,

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Speaker 1: the cornerstone of a rom com too is the eventual

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Speaker 1: marriage that if it doesn't happen at the end, there's

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Speaker 1: a promise of marriage at the end of a movie. Um.

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Speaker 1: And two of those scholars are Kyle Stevens and Deborah

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Speaker 1: Model mag who definitely linked the way that LGBT characters

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Speaker 1: are shown in movies to their place in mainstream society

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Speaker 1: at the same time. And so, because marriage is sort

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Speaker 1: of seen in society but also portrayed in rom coms

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Speaker 1: as basically the way that you become a functioning, socially

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Speaker 1: acceptable adult, it's definitely the key in the movie that's

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Speaker 1: like Hey, look, this person has grown beyond his or

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Speaker 1: her narcissism to become a contributing member of society and

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Speaker 1: we'll go on to procreate. Like well, oh, but gay

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Speaker 1: people aren't allowed to marry. There are no same sex

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Speaker 1: marriages happening yet, and we still only have the sex

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Speaker 1: less sidekick character. And in the process, you're denying these

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Speaker 1: gay characters any sort of sexual agency, which is really

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Speaker 1: a reflection of just denying their existence and complexity as people,

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Speaker 1: and also denying them the potential of being desirable to

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Speaker 1: other people. Hence things like the sexless gay sidekick. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and by denying them the happy ending of tying everything

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Speaker 1: up with a marriage bow at the end of a

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Speaker 1: rom com and allowing them a place in the social order,

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Speaker 1: they're just sort of left out. Doesn't ever, girl grow

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Speaker 1: up dreaming of her marriage bow, her marriage bow. I know,

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Speaker 1: And I mean this doesn't mean that though that marriage

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Speaker 1: isn't present in gay focused rom coms. Kyle Stevens rights that, regardless,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the narratives in these movies still hinge

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Speaker 1: on impain ending nuptials, sometimes the protagonists, sometimes of family members. Um,

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Speaker 1: but it's always a looming wedding, he writes that forces

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Speaker 1: the homosexual hero to confront his desires, and and he writes,

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Speaker 1: complicating Byron's dictum, romantic comedies with homosexual heroes that end

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Speaker 1: in marriage would constitute a tragedy. In other words, gay

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Speaker 1: characters couldn't get married obviously were pre marriage equality, so

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Speaker 1: you don't get that happily ever after ending. And if

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Speaker 1: they did, it could also be considered as not a

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Speaker 1: great win because it would still be hewing to that heteronormative,

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Speaker 1: conservative traditional value system. So there's no winning. So there's

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Speaker 1: almost no winning in this uh, in this explanation. And

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Speaker 1: then in we Get In and Out starring Kevin Klein

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Speaker 1: and Magnum p I otherwise known as Tom Selleck. That's

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Speaker 1: who he is. I just only picture the mustache, so like,

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Speaker 1: I can't hear his name in my brain over the mustache,

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Speaker 1: even though in the movie he doesn't have a mustache.

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Speaker 1: It's very confusing. It's a whole whole new Tom Selle.

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Speaker 1: It's like a different face. There's so much real estate

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Speaker 1: above his lip. I just don't know what to do with.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, I'm saying all this having not actually seen

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Speaker 1: the movie myself, um. But Stevens uses In and Out

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Speaker 1: as an example of the anxiety that can come up

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Speaker 1: around same sex relationships and the inability to tie things

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Speaker 1: up with a wedding. So in in and Out towards

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Speaker 1: the end or at the end you see spoiler. Sorry uh,

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Speaker 1: the lead gentleman Kevin Klein and Tom Selleck putting on suits.

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Speaker 1: They're all handsome, They're clearly getting ready for a wedding,

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Speaker 1: and oh my god, there's all this tension of like, wait,

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Speaker 1: a wedding. This is a year after demo was passed, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: so so how can two men be getting ready for

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Speaker 1: a wedding? But don't worry nineties audience. It turns out

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Speaker 1: that it's just one of the men's parents renewing their vows.

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Speaker 1: So even a quote unquote gay rom com has straight

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Speaker 1: people tying the knot in it rather than a same

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Speaker 1: sex couple. So this basically just reaffirms that sacred, sacred

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Speaker 1: hetero love at the end. So I read the Stevens

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Speaker 1: analysis before I watched In and Out for the very

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Speaker 1: first time. Seriously, this rom com series has just done

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Speaker 1: so much good for my like pop culture knowledge. I'm

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Speaker 1: finally catching up. I'm in like what es seven? You're

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Speaker 1: getting there like sixth grade? Finally, Um, And I found

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Speaker 1: stevens Is critique of In and Out to be overly

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Speaker 1: harsh in comparison to what I saw as a viewer. Um,

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Speaker 1: because A it's laugh out loud funny. I was rise

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Speaker 1: how how much I found myself laughing throughout the whole thing. Um. Also,

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Speaker 1: Joan Cusack is wonderful. I mean, it's it's an ensemble

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Speaker 1: cat perfect Joan Cusack, isn't it? Oh yeah, should have

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Speaker 1: said earlier. So Joan Cusack plays Kevin Klein's fiancee, and

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Speaker 1: the relationship between them is really sweet because they obviously

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Speaker 1: have a true platonic love for each other and they've

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Speaker 1: never had sex, and she has gone through all of

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Speaker 1: this dieting to like make over her bodies so that

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Speaker 1: she can fit into a wedding dress. Um. So there

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Speaker 1: are all these other trophy anxieties that the movie plays

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Speaker 1: with as well. Um. And Tom Selleck without his mustache

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Speaker 1: comes along and essentially opens Kevin Kleins eyes to the

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Speaker 1: fact that Matt Dillon was probably right. Um. And to me,

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Speaker 1: the whole thing was really satirical because I was I

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Speaker 1: started watching it, expecting to be kind of horrified at

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Speaker 1: the almost bird cage like level of the Sun's you know,

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Speaker 1: like disdain in the homophobia. Um. And of course the

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Speaker 1: small townspeople once they start suspecting and later find out

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Speaker 1: that Kinvinclin is in fact gay, he loses his job

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Speaker 1: and people start turning on him. But then in the

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Speaker 1: end it's so redemptive because essentially it's a story about

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Speaker 1: showing audiences how being gay in no way like makes

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Speaker 1: you a different person. It doesn't. It isn't some type

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Speaker 1: of character failing. And so you see this small town

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Speaker 1: rallying to support Kevin Klein's character and get him his

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Speaker 1: job back. After Bob new Heart, oh God, new Heart

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Speaker 1: is the principle of the school and he reluctantly asks

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Speaker 1: Kevin Klein to step down after he outs, you know,

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Speaker 1: comes out of the closet publicly. UM. So I wish

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Speaker 1: I could have seen it in the late nineties because

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Speaker 1: it is such a mainstream film with such an a

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Speaker 1: list cast UM. And I would be curious to go

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Speaker 1: back and and read reviews from the time UM about it,

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Speaker 1: because to me, it's still even though it played a

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Speaker 1: lot on Gamel stereotypes. There are a lot of barber

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Speaker 1: strays and jokes. There's this whole scene of Kevin Klein

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Speaker 1: dancing um in a rather effeminate way. Um. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time when he has his quote unquote bachelor party,

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Speaker 1: when he's still closet, Kevin Klein's character, UM, he gets

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Speaker 1: really frustrated because all of his kind of like blue

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Speaker 1: collar small town guy friends are like, hey, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: play your favorites it strives in night and Kevin Klein's like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm a man, I don't want to hear that. And

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Speaker 1: they're like, but it's our favorite too. So it's kind

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Speaker 1: of cute how they play around with a lot of that.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, you aside from you know, the comical kiss

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Speaker 1: that he and Tom Selleck share, which we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about later on, it is also a product of

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Speaker 1: its time in how unsexual Kevin Klein is and even

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Speaker 1: after he and Tom Selleck get together, how unsexual or

424
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: de sexualized I just say their relationship is. But it

425
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: is very much a product of his time, because Kevin

426
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: Klein remains really de sexualized in his character does even

427
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: after he gets together with Tom Selleck, even when they

428
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: are very lovingly putting on, you know, each other's taxes,

429
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: helping helping each other tie the tuxedo, bow tie the tuxedo.

430
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: Not exactly. Um, that's pretty much as far as their

431
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: physicality goes. And that's when you remember, oh yeah, this

432
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: is coming out on the heels of doma. And I mean,

433
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: in this era, people do love a rom com. Oh yeah,

434
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: they do love a rom com. Model Mogs sites Mark Rubenfeld.

435
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: I guess that this must be a fellow rom com scholar. Also,

436
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: what a great phrase, model Mogs sites Rubenfeld uh and

437
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: reuben Feld notes that the nineties were rom com boom time.

438
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't have to tell you people this.

439
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: You've been listening to our series, you already know. But

440
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: in alone, there were fifteen Hollywood romantic comedies that sold

441
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: more than three point four million tickets at the box office,

442
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: and eight of those actually grossed more than a hundred

443
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: million dollars. So basically, at this time in the nineties,

444
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: we are clearly in love with love. We're in love

445
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: with happy endings. But the thing is all of these

446
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: gay rom coms and and I really I don't say

447
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: gay rom coms as like a dismissive or pejorative thing.

448
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: I'm I'm lovingly saying gay rom comms. Um, these these

449
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: rom coms have to find an alternative ending, because there

450
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: can't like we said, there can't be that wedding at

451
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: the end. It can't be too serious, it can't be

452
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: too passionate, like the gay characters can't or the same

453
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: sex characters can't love each other too much or or

454
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: kiss passionately even well. And it seems like as a

455
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: result of that, a lot of the mainstreaming quotes gay

456
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: ish rom coms are more about a straight person, either

457
00:30:54,640 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: a presumably straight person either discovering that they are gay,

458
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: like navigating a journey with their sexual orientation, or a

459
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: straight person being in love or attached to somehow a

460
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: gay person like um, object of my affection with Jennifer

461
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: Aniston and Paul Read. Where Yeah, where he is gay,

462
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: she is straight, she's pregnant, she wants Paul Read to

463
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: be her main squeeze and help raise the baby. Um.

464
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: There were a lot in the nineties two that was

465
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: like prime time for all of that anxiety to about

466
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: like straight women falling for a gay men and wanting

467
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: to form the conventional family unit with them. Well, isn't

468
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: it also that time that the whole gay best friend

469
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: trope is starting to peak on TV as well? You

470
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: have Will Embrace Sex in the City. Yeah, I mean

471
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: think about it though, because Will wasn't allowed to be

472
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: very sexual, where at least Jack got to flirt and

473
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: be outlandish, and Stanford on Sex in the City wasn't

474
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: really allowed to be sexy or sexual either. He was

475
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: also more trophy and like almost a old friend. So

476
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: you have these characters that are again are devoid of

477
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: the sexual, devoid of the political, and are basically the

478
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: best friend. Yeah, because obviously our culture still doesn't know

479
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: what exactly to do with it, so you have to

480
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: have some straightness, it seems like in there so that

481
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: we are kind of coloring still within the lines for

482
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: the most part, Yeah, basically. And included in coloring within

483
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: the lines is the way that LGBT centric rom coms

484
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: are distributed, because it's not like many of them have

485
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: been huge hits in mainstream theaters outside of major cities.

486
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: They're more likely to be in your art house theater

487
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: here in Atlanta. That's Tara, And I'm not I mean,

488
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: I'm not even kidding, like, if you gotta Tara, that

489
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: sounds so awful that our that the movie theater, the

490
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: movie theater y'all that we go to in Atlanta's is Tara. Well, yeah,

491
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: a log. But it's not just gay themes, it's I

492
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: mean any type of outside the mainstream theme at all.

493
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: That's where I saw Obvious Child starring Jenny Slate, which

494
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: is all about I mean, it's a rom combat, it's

495
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: about abortion. But I mean that's the thing. These themes

496
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: that exist outside of the white, straight, uh conservative traditional

497
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: storylines c Yeah, yeah, that are enjoyed in mainstream theaters

498
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: end up in these art house theaters because Hollywood is

499
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: just not down with distributing something that might not make money.

500
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: I mean, let's be honest. Yes, Hollywood has racism and

501
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: sexism and all that stuff, but it also wants to

502
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: make a money And if it's afraid that people aren't

503
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: going to shell out the dollars to put their eyeballs

504
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: in front of the screen, then they're not even going

505
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: to bother. And so basically, as scholars Model mug Rubenfeld

506
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: and Stevens argue, this really reinforces the mothering of LGBT

507
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: people and the idea that same sex romance and sexuality

508
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: are shameful and something that you, as a straight person

509
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: in the major theater you shouldn't even bother being interested in.

510
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: And so basically, if you have an LGBT centric rom

511
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: com or featuring LGBT themes, if you want to wind

512
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: up in a major theater, those same sex romances have

513
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: to be like in and out, completely comic or ultimately tragic.

514
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 1: I'll brokeback Mountain, but that is not a rom com

515
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 1: mostly non sexual and white, because I mean, when's the

516
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: last time in a major theater you saw an LGBT

517
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: rom com about people of color? Well? Also, when was

518
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: the last time in a mainstream theater like an AMC

519
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: you saw a gay romcom period? Yes, well exactly. And

520
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: so one thing that um, I believe it's model mag

521
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: talks about in her paper in the Journal of Popular

522
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: Film and Television from two thousand nine is the presence

523
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: of the key kiss. So the key kiss, think end

524
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: of one of my least favorite movie has never been

525
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 1: Kissed with Drew Barrymore and Michael Vartan. I really enjoy it,

526
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,240
Speaker 1: but sorry everyone, no, I mean, we can have different

527
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: tastes in rom coms Caroline, Oh my god. But that

528
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: key kiss when Michael Vartan runs out and kisses Drew

529
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 1: Barrymore on the baseball field, that is that's the key kiss,

530
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 1: and the key kiss symbolizes that commitment is happening. True

531
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: love has been found. This is serious, committed love. And

532
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: these people are together now and everyone approves of it.

533
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: They have the whole community support because you know, in

534
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: never been kissed, the stands are filled with everybody in town.

535
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: As if you need somehow to reinforce the fact that, like,

536
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: you might as well have big cartoon arrows pointing to

537
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: the couple kissing, like this is who you're cheering for,

538
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: we want them to be in love. I feel like

539
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: I needed those arrows and Hope floats because I didn't

540
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 1: want those characters to be together like so bad. One

541
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: thing I've learned from this is that you hate Hopeful

542
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 1: more than anything. I think that Hopefuls has come up

543
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: in every single episode. Yeah, and here's the thing. I

544
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: love that movie, but I hate Harry Connick Jr. Like

545
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: what he does to her. Now I can go back.

546
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 1: I can't go back down that road we already had

547
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 1: feedback on Facebook that was unhappy with me. Um. Okay,

548
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: So all I'm trying to say is that the key

549
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: kiss symbolizes seriousness. It symbolizes that two people are in love,

550
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 1: and if those two people are of the same sex,

551
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: well that just means you're going to the art house theater.

552
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: And a lot of times in those movies, the key

553
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: kiss is not going to happen in a packed out

554
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: baseball stadium or at a wedding with with both families there. Um.

555
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: It's usually in a more private setting where it's just

556
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: one on one. And it is interesting now, as model

557
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 1: made points out, and something that I've never thought about

558
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: until all of our rom com scholarship, um, is the

559
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: fact that so many of these key kiss scenes and

560
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: the whole audience is cheering, or the whole township, or

561
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 1: the whole baseball stadium is cheering for the kissing straight

562
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: couple or or opposite sex couple. This is emerging around

563
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: the same time that DOMA was past. So you do

564
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: you have all of these like straight people anxieties. Well,

565
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: and I mean think about how a decade before what

566
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: was going on in the gay community. It was the

567
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: AIDS crisis, So before we have all of these rom

568
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: coms happening, you have to have a Philadelphia like it's

569
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 1: We had to move through those cycles because aside from

570
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: one AIDS rom com that I could find sided I

571
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: think it's called Jeremy. I mean, they're in the eighties,

572
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 1: there's nothing like funny at all of the portrayal of

573
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: gay characters on screen, because all of it was like

574
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: basically trying to shake mainstream America to say, hello, this

575
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: is real, this is happening, and we're dying. Exactly so,

576
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: because all of those negative stereotypes about gay people and

577
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: these like fearful assumptions that AIDS was the quote unquote

578
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: gay cancer as it was first reported on in the

579
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: New York Times, and all of the homophobia that was

580
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: still happening, um, and just the slow recognition of gay

581
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 1: people as existing and being worthy of attention and respect

582
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: as people. It takes until the mid to late nineties

583
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 1: for us to see them not as this other group

584
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 1: of people who are having something like a horrible epidemic

585
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: sweep through them, but who are having love lives, love

586
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: lives that are in no way connected to tragedy. And

587
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 1: as a byproduct of all that, gay activism. Though that

588
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: happened in light of the AIDS crisis, it does pave

589
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: the way for lighter films that we're going to talk about.

590
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: We come right back from a quick break, all right, Caroline,

591
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: We've got some big news for the small screen. On July.

592
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: Mr Robot is coming back to USA Network for its

593
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 1: second season. That's right. It's been hailed by Rolling Stone,

594
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: is the number one show, and named Best Drama by

595
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: the Golden Globe and Critics Choice Awards. Mr Robot follows

596
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: a cyber security engineer who's recruited by the mysterious leader

597
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: of an underground group determined to bring down the world's

598
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: largest corporation. But when their hack is a success, the

599
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: consequences are far greater than they imagined. Following the events

600
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: of f Society's five nine hack on multinational company Evil Corps,

601
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 1: the second season will explore the consequences of that attack,

602
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: as well as the illusion of troll. Starring Rommy Malick

603
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: and Christian Slater, Mr Robot returns Wednesday, July at ten

604
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: nine Central, only on USA Network. So if you're looking

605
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 1: for something to binge on this summer, head on over

606
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: to USA Network on July and tune in to Mr Robot.

607
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: So once we hit the nineties, right, this is this

608
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: is romcom boom time style. Personal style is peaking. We've

609
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 1: got lots of frosted tips. We've got those uh, flipped

610
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: up bucket hats with sunflowers on them. That's right. I

611
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,919
Speaker 1: actually had a I had a flipped up hat because

612
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: I addressed as Matilda to a second grade costume parade.

613
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: I thought you were adorable. I don't know, I have

614
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: no idea. I don't know. I hope I was um

615
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: and And well, those negative tropes around LGBT characters didn't

616
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 1: disappear like we said earlier. Mainstream film and TV slowly

617
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,320
Speaker 1: begin to feature more positive portrayals of gay characters. Again,

618
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: they might not be more than two dimensional, kind of

619
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: like trophy sidekick characters, but at least they're not villains

620
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: whose sexual orientations have driven them insane to murder people.

621
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: That's a plus. I feel like that's a step up. Well,

622
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 1: this is also the time, especially in the mid nineties,

623
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: when we start to get the first LGBT romcom cult classics. Yeah.

624
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: So in four, which I also believe is the same

625
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,959
Speaker 1: year that Reality Bites came out, I'm pretty sure, So

626
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. Ninety four like something great was happening

627
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: year good year from movies, But we get Priscilla, Queen

628
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: of the Desert, which, as far as eccentric movies about

629
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: drag queens in a bus going across the desert goes,

630
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 1: it is really really heartwarming. I really love Priscilla Queen

631
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: of the Desert. And can you tell me a little

632
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: more about it, because I have never seen it. Yes,

633
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: it is on my queue, um, but I've never seen

634
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 1: it before. Basically, you have some drag queen characters. You

635
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: also have a trans woman character, which when I saw

636
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 1: the movie didn't think anything of it. But when I'm

637
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: looking back now and I think of the context of

638
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: the time where we were in ninety four and where

639
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 1: we are now talking about trans rights and visibility, that's

640
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 1: pretty stinking incredible. Um and and and and not to

641
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 1: spoil it, which really you should see the movie anyway,

642
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,919
Speaker 1: but the trans woman, I mean she's not painted as

643
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 1: a caricature. I mean a lot of ridiculous things happen

644
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: in the movie, and they are like dressed up and

645
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: shown putting on makeup even when they're stranded. They're putting

646
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: on their fabulous clothes. But she doesn't die. And I

647
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: know that's I know that's crazy, like what that's like

648
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: the bare minimum? Right? No? I mean so often you

649
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 1: had gay characters or LGBT characters in general meeting some

650
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: sort of horrible end to compensate for their evil and

651
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: their subversiveness and whatever. Um. But she finds love. Oh,

652
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: she gets the wrong amid the calm she she she

653
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: gets the happy ending that I mean that is massively

654
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: progressive Australia. But I mean Australia does have like I

655
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: want to say, is it Sydney that has the big

656
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: drag queen culture? Um? But yeah, and and so I

657
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: love Priscilla Queen of the Desert. And the following year,

658
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: I don't know what's in the water. Uh, movement towards

659
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: equal rights maybe, um, but we get too wong food

660
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:52,479
Speaker 1: with love Julie Newmar And this is Patrick Swayze, John

661
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: Legisamo and Wesley Snipes dream team as drag queens but

662
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: again looking bad ac. Yes, they were drag queens and

663
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: they performed in drag, but their characters were really really

664
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: women identified. I mean they were still when they were

665
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: by themselves in their house. In this movie, they were

666
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: still a lot of times, especially Patrick Swayze's character, dressed

667
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: and behaving as women. And so I'm wondering now if

668
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: you could go back and look at that movie and

669
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: it doesn't have more to say about trans women. But

670
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: I mean, however, hokey this movie is. I mean, you

671
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:36,720
Speaker 1: do have these three outlandish characters coming to a small

672
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: town and changing hearts and minds. It still is incredible

673
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:42,919
Speaker 1: this movie. My mother took me to see this movie

674
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: in the theater and she loved it, loved it. But

675
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: how could you not love Patrick Swayze and anything though? Honestly,

676
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: but John Lama's character in that movie, I think her name,

677
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,280
Speaker 1: I'm I seriously think her name is Cheche or something

678
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: like that. Um. John Lgizama's character has this like a

679
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: Dore horrible falling in love storyline where she meets this

680
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 1: young farm boy, you know, he's never been away from home,

681
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 1: and he just thinks she's so beautiful and exotic because

682
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 1: you know, oh, my goodness, a Latina woman and she's

683
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: beautiful and tall and broad shouldered. Um. And he has

684
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: to then grapple with her actual identity. So so these

685
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: cult films. These early LGBT rom coms are are such

686
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 1: interesting time capsules in the nineties well, and in treating

687
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: these characters as people rather than just accessories. Um. I'm

688
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: so curious though, to know what you think about a

689
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: movie that came out the next year, in the year

690
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: the Olympics came to Atlanta. Um when The Bird Cage

691
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 1: came out, Because now, I did not immediately think of

692
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: The Bird Cage as a rom com um, but some

693
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: argue that it is. I feel like it kind of.

694
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: It's sort of like sits on the line between rom

695
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 1: com and just a calm com um. And I tried

696
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: to watch it recently and it was unbearable because as

697
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: delightful as Nathan Lane and hank Azariah are, their sons

698
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:26,240
Speaker 1: like deep seated like embarrassment and all of just the

699
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:31,399
Speaker 1: homophobia um in it coming from the sun. I mean,

700
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: I get the whole plot line that creates the conflict,

701
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: but he's just awful to his dad's Yeah. Oh yeah, so.

702
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: Uh Robin Williams and uh Nathan Lane are the fathers

703
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: of the son who's newly engaged to Calista Flockhart. Hankers

704
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: Area is like their house boy and I use that term,

705
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: I understand, but I use that term because he literally

706
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: is like the trophiest, most caricatured character ever. He wears

707
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 1: little short shorts, denim cut offs and is hysterical, but

708
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 1: he is a total trope. Um. But now I thought

709
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: the exact same thing. And when I was looking at

710
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: this as a potential rom com, because you do have

711
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: a lot of rom between Robin Williams and Nathan Lane

712
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 1: despite all of the caricatures that are in that movie,

713
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: I thought the same thing. I was like, I don't

714
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: know today if you could have this movie, because the

715
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: driving force is them being afraid of upsetting their homophobic

716
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 1: son or he's and how embarrassing they are. Yeah, you know,

717
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 1: but you're right. I mean there are really sweet moments,

718
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 1: especially of Nathan Lane toward Robin Williams, but partially it's

719
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: because he has on false eyelashes and is batting them

720
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: so perfectly. That's another movie. Both of my parents loved

721
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: The Bird Cage. I mean, if you knew my parents well,

722
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,760
Speaker 1: and it's so colorful. It's a very vivacious movie. Um,

723
00:47:54,840 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 1: but yeah, a little different to watch in verses. Yeah,

724
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 1: and then the next year is when we get In

725
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: and Out. In we get Kevin Klein. He's about to

726
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: get married to a lady, but his former student, who

727
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 1: is now a successful actor, Matt Dylan Uh is up

728
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,479
Speaker 1: on stage delivering acceptance speech, thanking his teacher quote who

729
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 1: is gay? And Kevin Klein this like sends him on

730
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: this journey of self discovery because he's like, I'm not gay,

731
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: I'm engaged to Joan Cusack. Am I gay? And so

732
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: you know, like, okay, great nineties movie, make the straight

733
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: guy the impetus for the gay guys self discovery. Whatever,

734
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: We'll overlook that. In and Out has the key kiss

735
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: that is central to so many rom coms, but it

736
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: is completely slapstick. It's devoid of that intimate close up.

737
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: In the swelling music, Kevin Klein is like flapping around

738
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 1: crazy like as Magnum p I kisses him. And that

739
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: is essentially model mogu are us. That is essentially what

740
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: kept In and Out in the mainstream theaters and out

741
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 1: of the art house theater ghetto. She writes, the implication

742
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,359
Speaker 1: is not only that heterosexuals are naturally revolted by same

743
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,439
Speaker 1: sex eroticism, but that gays should be to the entire

744
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 1: audience is asked back away from or to laugh at

745
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 1: the gay kiss, not to desire it, and apparently the

746
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 1: the filmmaker considered taking that scene out because he was

747
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,839
Speaker 1: worried that it was too much like a bridge too far,

748
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,879
Speaker 1: but it tested so well with audiences that they left

749
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 1: it in because it's hilarious, right yeah, on the one hand,

750
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: good for you not being disgusted by two men kissing.

751
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: On the other hand, like, oh, but it can only

752
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: be if it's played for laughs. Although I will say

753
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: that a very much redeeming factor in all of this

754
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: is that while yes there is this slapstick kiss and

755
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 1: a lack of physicality between um Tom Sellick and Kevin Klein,

756
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: really be on that at the end, the town's embrace

757
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: and support of Kevin Klein and the way that they

758
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 1: do it, and I really can't describe it, and you

759
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 1: need to watch it because it made me will up

760
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: a little bit. I'm gonna be honest. Is not for

761
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: laughs at all. I mean, there's it's still kind of funny,

762
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:26,479
Speaker 1: but like the underlying message is a very serious one

763
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 1: that these are people. This is like a beloved English

764
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: teacher in small town, USA who has tremendous friends and

765
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: a devoted family who also happens to be gay. You know,

766
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 1: at one point you have uh, what's his name? He

767
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 1: did the Quaker oats commercials. It's a Quaker oatmeal commercials,

768
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: and he was in life goes on Wilfred Brimley. Okay,

769
00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: so Wilfred Brimley, this old guy places dad and he's

770
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 1: a farmer. And at one point, after Kevin Klein comes

771
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 1: out as gay, Wilfred Brimley walks in and he's just like,

772
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,879
Speaker 1: you know, San, I don't I don't necessarily understand it all,

773
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: but I love you, you know, I mean, it's just

774
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: like very sweet. Um. So again I have I have

775
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 1: a couple a couple of bones to pick with Stevenson

776
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: model mog. But a couple of years later we have

777
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,839
Speaker 1: but I'm a Cheerleader, which I watched this morning, Caroline

778
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: before we came in to record this podcast, because when

779
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,240
Speaker 1: we on Facebook asked stuff, I never told you listeners

780
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 1: of their favorite rom coms. But I'm a Cheerleader was

781
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: one of the in the top ten and it stars

782
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: Natasha Leone who is sent off to gay reform camp essentially,

783
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 1: and she falls in love with Graham, who is another

784
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:09,839
Speaker 1: lesbian there who is um resisting reformation, And it's so

785
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: campy and um have you ever seen House of Yes.

786
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 1: It has very much the same kind of like outlandish

787
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 1: feel as that movie starring Um Parker Posey. It might

788
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 1: also be because both movies have a lot of pink

789
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 1: and then but it co stars Rue Paul, who's hilarious

790
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 1: in it, I mean, and it just takes all of

791
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 1: those stereotypes, all of those caricatures that we've seen in

792
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 1: a lot of these mainstream films leading up to this

793
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: point and just blows them up and essentially like satirizes

794
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 1: all of the homophobia happening at the time. So if

795
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 1: you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it. It is

796
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 1: on Amazon Prime and Google Play. And this episode is

797
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 1: brought and this episode is brought to you by Netflix

798
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 1: by lesbians. No, it's it's fantastic, go back and watch

799
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 1: it. It It is laugh out loud, funny, and Natasha Leone,

800
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 1: a young Natasha Leone, is a delight. Well. So when

801
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 1: we move into the New Millennium, I wonder if I

802
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: can get echo on my voice there in the New

803
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:24,280
Speaker 1: millennium thousand, actually your two thousand one we get Kissing

804
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: Jessica Stein, which stars Jennifer Westfeldt as basically this she

805
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 1: thinks she's straight lady who answers a woman seeking woman

806
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 1: ad in the paper clicks instantly with a woman who

807
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: placed it and Hi jinks in Sue Well and that

808
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,919
Speaker 1: was another gay rom com that stuff one never told

809
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: you listeners loved and that was like almost a critical

810
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: darling at the time because it does treat sexual fluidity

811
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 1: in a really novel way, especially at the time. Um.

812
00:53:57,920 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 1: But I gotta tell you, the first thing I thought

813
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 1: of when I was watching the trailer was that it

814
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: starts off with her going on a date with John

815
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 1: Ham and of course it doesn't work out because she

816
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:12,799
Speaker 1: goes on to start a relationship with a woman. But

817
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: you know, I r L they end up getting married.

818
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 1: Just that's a very much they didn't tangential thing. Oh

819
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 1: yeah I did, and they just they just broke up.

820
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 1: I know, I wrote, I wrote this, I broke the

821
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: news on Refinery. Yeah, they never got mar um, but

822
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 1: I really, I really want to see that one. But

823
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 1: I was reading a couple of reviews of it, and

824
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 1: the one in Slate from when it came out, like

825
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 1: almost loved it. He was frustrated because you have Jessica

826
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: Stein in this relationship between two women that's like very

827
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 1: genuine and is exploring themes in rom coms that you

828
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: never see in terms of emotional connection versus sexual connection.

829
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:04,359
Speaker 1: Do you do if you don't that key kiss is

830
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 1: different for both people? Um, But they end up having

831
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 1: this deep bond anyway. But he was disappointed because it's

832
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 1: still circled back to so many romcom tropes, and the

833
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 1: two women, both of whom had been in straight relationships before,

834
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 1: talked about men so much to each other that it

835
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 1: seemed like that was sort of the stand in for

836
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: having a guy in there, you know what I mean,

837
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 1: to kind of stabilize the whole thing. Yeah. Interesting. And

838
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: then they don't stay together, No, but they stay friends.

839
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 1: Spoiler spoiler, spoilers for so many spoilers. And the thing is,

840
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 1: I wish I hadn't read those reviews before I went

841
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 1: back UM and discovered that Kissing Jessica Sign is an

842
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 1: HBO Go, So there you go. I know. Yeah, So

843
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 1: I watched it and very much enjoyed it, um and

844
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 1: and very much agree that it's a rom com focus

845
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 1: not necessarily on heterosexual love or gay love lesbian love,

846
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 1: but rather on fluidity and the idea of openness. But

847
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 1: it does play on so many of the same rom

848
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 1: com tropes, and it's funny to see how they kind

849
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:26,919
Speaker 1: of twisted around. Not that different from In and Out

850
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 1: because you have a wedding that prompts conflict, you have

851
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 1: people from different worlds who are coming together that kind

852
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 1: of opposites attract situation. Um. And you have just like

853
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:48,280
Speaker 1: very stock rom com scenes where you'll have the awkward

854
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:51,399
Speaker 1: first kiss and then them sitting nervous next to each other,

855
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 1: not knowing what to do after that. Um. And it does, ultimately, yes,

856
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: kind of anchor itself around straight relationships with men. But

857
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: it was I've just never seen a rom com like

858
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 1: that before. Well, I mean you said something that, uh

859
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 1: that I thought was important. Um. I mean, yes, we

860
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: could argue very easily, and in some cases this is true.

861
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: You could argue that some of these rom com trips

862
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 1: are damaging regardless of who the stars are and what

863
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 1: the plot is. Some of these tropes are you know,

864
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: playing up people's lives and realities for laughs. But not again,

865
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 1: not having seen kissing Jessica Stein is it possible that like,

866
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: that's where we should be going. And by that I

867
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 1: mean that sexual fluidity in relationships is shown is just normal,

868
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 1: a normal part of a rom com Yeah, and that

869
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 1: there's life beyond a relationship as well. I really appreciated

870
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: how they ultimately explored what is a very common issue

871
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 1: when you are dating, which is the um if you

872
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 1: have the imbalance of someone who might have, you know,

873
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 1: a more aggressive sexual libido and someone who is more

874
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 1: emotionally connected, and how those two things really interact over

875
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 1: the long term, because I think that that's an issue

876
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 1: that a lot of couples who have been together for

877
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 1: a while deal with, as as the dust starts to settle,

878
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: you know, in figuring out like what that balance is, Um,

879
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 1: the lust dust the lust dust, yes, um. But but

880
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 1: I like how they are able to we see these

881
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:42,919
Speaker 1: characters after the breakup happens, and they're okay, we know that,

882
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 1: we know that Jennifer Westfeldt has undergone a serious, you know,

883
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 1: a long term change in her life because her hair

884
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:56,280
Speaker 1: is now crimped and she's using Uh this is the

885
00:58:56,280 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 1: big thing. So she's this writer and she hates computers.

886
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 1: She finds them just loaths some. But then at the

887
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: end when she is like, at the very very end,

888
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 1: when she is reconnecting with someone, I won't say who,

889
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 1: although if you watch it's gonna be easy to guess.

890
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: She gives this person her email address, to which the

891
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:25,080
Speaker 1: person is like an email address, and she laughs and says, yes, yes,

892
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 1: it's true. Email is the easiest way to get in

893
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 1: touch with me. Now with her curly hair just bobbing around,

894
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 1: and then she goes, you know, to meet up with

895
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 1: with someone, I feel like I shouldn't say anymore because

896
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 1: now I'm just like revealing the end of this movie. Um,

897
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 1: but so wait spoilers. She talks to someone and then

898
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 1: meets up with someone. There are more than there are

899
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 1: scenes with more than one person on screen. Yes. Uh.

900
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 1: The only thing that I found unnecessary and very much

901
00:59:55,920 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 1: a product of its nineties time is her initial all

902
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 1: like ill at the thought of lesbian sex. Oh yeah,

903
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 1: that is something that's played up for laughs. We saw

904
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 1: that in Sex in the City too. Yeah, m like, nope,

905
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 1: come on, all right, But overall I gave it a

906
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 1: what's our sminty rating system for for movies? Would that

907
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 1: be hystorical uteruses? Oh? Yeah, Dampons. Yeahs Uterus is okay. Well,

908
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: out of how many five, I would give it a

909
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 1: four and a half out of five Sminty gold Uteruses. Yeah,

910
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 1: that's high praise. Yeah, it's very enjoyable. Um So looking

911
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 1: forward to hearing what listeners have to say about that one.

912
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 1: And and I can't speak on this movie this next

913
01:00:58,440 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 1: movie because I have not seen it, but it is

914
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 1: one that I definitely want to see. It's two thousand

915
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 1: four Saving Face, which not only features a lesbian couple

916
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:09,320
Speaker 1: and one of the women's pregnant mother who has to

917
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 1: move in with them, and of course one of the

918
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 1: daughters is like, oh, I can't tell my mom I'm gay,

919
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 1: Like she keeps wanting to marry me off. So you've

920
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 1: got all of those masquerading screwball hijinks. But it's an

921
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 1: Asian American couple and their families and it's like, oh

922
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:27,440
Speaker 1: my god, finally, and it looks so good. It looks

923
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 1: so good. And it's one of the ones that someone

924
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:31,479
Speaker 1: on Twitter was like, this is one of the few

925
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 1: LGBT rom coms I know of what else is out there?

926
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 1: So I have to see Saving Face. Well, and that

927
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 1: also is one of the few rom coms starring Asian Americans. Yeah,

928
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 1: we talked about that in our last episode, that you

929
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: just it's not like you see Asian American rom coms

930
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 1: rolling around everywhere. I mean, it is so rare and

931
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 1: so yeah, I for so many reasons, not only that

932
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 1: it just looks good. I need to see saving face. Um.

933
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 1: So as we moved through the two thousands, we do

934
01:01:57,880 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 1: start to see a little bit more diversity coming in

935
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 1: and two fours, Touch of Paint deals with issues of religion.

936
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 1: And then if we jump forward to two thousand six,

937
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 1: we get another movie that was a pretty relatively large

938
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 1: success as far as LGBT rom coms go, although this

939
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:16,080
Speaker 1: one is more of a rom com drum. And that's

940
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 1: imagine me and you with Piper Parabo. And so Piper

941
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 1: parables like she's happily committed to Matthew Good and and

942
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 1: I he's so hot. Um, but she discovers her mutual

943
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 1: attraction to a woman. Okay, so it sounds kissing Jessica

944
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 1: stein Ish. You have presumably straight, but oh look at this,

945
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 1: we have maybe bisexuality or some sexual fluidity happening. Yeah,

946
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 1: they have that in common, and they have their more

947
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 1: or less mainstream success in common as well. So what

948
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 1: is up? Why why do you imagine me and you

949
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 1: and kissing Jessica Stein? Why did they go against the

950
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,680
Speaker 1: usual end of oh my god, same sex, Key kisses

951
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 1: me and you go to the Art House theater because

952
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 1: it's two women, yeah, and attractive white women. Yeah. I

953
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 1: mean not to be like chasing amy about it, but

954
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 1: it's like that is more palatable usually and is more

955
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 1: eroticized definitely than two men kissing, which that reminds me

956
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 1: of It's not necessarily a gay rom com, but when

957
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 1: that came out a few years ago that does include

958
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 1: men men kissing, although their their friends. Is the movie

959
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:39,160
Speaker 1: hump Day starring Mark dupless Um, where he plays kind

960
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 1: of straight lace guys got the the house and the

961
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:44,640
Speaker 1: wife and the kid, and his friend comes to town

962
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: Um who is living more of a wild lifestyle. He's

963
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: not tied down to anything. And they get drunk one

964
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 1: night and they're talking about the I think it's in

965
01:03:55,880 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 1: Portland there it's an actual porn festival, um that I

966
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 1: want to say, Dan Savage out of hand in uh

967
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 1: in starting and they get the cookie idea to make

968
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 1: a porn and submit it because they were like, I mean,

969
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:13,600
Speaker 1: we can do this. We love each other, we're guys,

970
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:17,600
Speaker 1: we can totally like make a porn together. And it

971
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 1: could veer off into browy homophobe territory, but it actually,

972
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 1: in the end, from what I remember of it has

973
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:35,440
Speaker 1: a really nice honest moment of these guys actually exploring

974
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 1: their sexuality in the sense of like talking openly about it.

975
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 1: Because when it comes down to the time, they were

976
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 1: like in the hotel room, they're like, are we gonna

977
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 1: do this or not? And they do end up kissing.

978
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:48,200
Speaker 1: I won't give away the rest, but they have an

979
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 1: honest conversation about what it would feel like, and Mark

980
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 1: Dupless's character actually is like, I mean I did have

981
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:58,600
Speaker 1: a fantasy about a guy at one time, and it's

982
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 1: not played up for jokes. Yeah, so I mean that.

983
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 1: And again though that was more of an indie film,

984
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 1: but it got a lot of attention when it came

985
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,120
Speaker 1: out because it was like, oh, wait, we're seeing wait

986
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:15,280
Speaker 1: is this a bromance? This is a a what's going on?

987
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 1: How do you classify sexual fluidity and just general openness

988
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 1: and acceptance? Yeah, because like, oh, we're we're totally on board.

989
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:26,040
Speaker 1: If it's too if it's too hot, girls kissing, but like,

990
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:27,960
Speaker 1: oh wait, two guys, I don't know, I don't know

991
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 1: what to do with that, and especially two guys who

992
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 1: look like you know, I mean, if you watch the league,

993
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 1: like they look like two dudes, like hanging out at

994
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:38,040
Speaker 1: a bar, maybe playing fantasy football or something. They're like

995
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 1: very much bros. There not a Stanford Blatch on sex

996
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 1: in the city. So I'm going to be curious to

997
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:52,280
Speaker 1: see as marriage equality becomes more of just like the

998
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 1: thing that has always been um, trans rights continue to

999
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:02,560
Speaker 1: become more and more accepted and destigmatized, whether we will

1000
01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 1: see that reflected on the big screen, because on the

1001
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:09,800
Speaker 1: small screen we've seen more progress with that. Yeah, I mean,

1002
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:13,000
Speaker 1: things are definitely slower for the big screen. We had

1003
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:16,080
Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen another movie that I have to go

1004
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:18,960
Speaker 1: back and see, which is Boy Meets Girl and the

1005
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:22,440
Speaker 1: leading lady is a trans woman. This is she's played

1006
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:25,320
Speaker 1: by Michelle Henley, who's an actual trans woman, thank goodness,

1007
01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:30,160
Speaker 1: not someone masquerading as trans. Um who gets her own

1008
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 1: wonderful storyline of self discovery. This character is allowed to

1009
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 1: dream and have love and romance and doubt and fear,

1010
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:42,960
Speaker 1: and her best friend is a dude who's like basically

1011
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,160
Speaker 1: okay with the fact that his bff is a trans woman.

1012
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:50,480
Speaker 1: There's not drama there. That's not the source of the conflict. Um,

1013
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 1: And she even has a relationship and tries to explore

1014
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:55,800
Speaker 1: obviously not just gender. Gender has been on that's been

1015
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:59,240
Speaker 1: figured out, but she explores her sexual orientation as well.

1016
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:05,080
Speaker 1: And so how wonderful to see um trans issues on

1017
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 1: the big screen displayed normally. I mean, I know that

1018
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:12,280
Speaker 1: sounds weird, but not as a joke, not as a

1019
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 1: trope or a trick or something like that, or a

1020
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:18,840
Speaker 1: tragedy or a tragedy. Yeah, exactly. And obviously there are

1021
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:23,160
Speaker 1: fewer gay rom coms than there are you know, hetero

1022
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:27,440
Speaker 1: rom coms, But there are so many, especially independent films

1023
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:30,200
Speaker 1: that we haven't had time to mention. And some of

1024
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:33,959
Speaker 1: them are real stinkers, you know, just like the same

1025
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:37,760
Speaker 1: seas with a straight wrong cum I mean, never been kissed.

1026
01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:40,520
Speaker 1: You're not a fan. I'm not a fan. I'm trying

1027
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:42,480
Speaker 1: to think of one that I hate. I'm sure that

1028
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. My brain is just a little fuzzy

1029
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:48,280
Speaker 1: right now, But um, I would love to hear though

1030
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 1: from listeners about their favorites and what they predict for

1031
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 1: the rom com genre, because we are at a point

1032
01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:03,400
Speaker 1: where some wonder if it's even going to survive UM

1033
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:06,280
Speaker 1: because in a lot of ways, like our society has

1034
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 1: progressed beyond the typical rom com formula. UM, so what

1035
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 1: are we gonna do with it? We're just gonna keep

1036
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 1: having ensemble rom coms about Arbor Day. Maybe a gay

1037
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:23,880
Speaker 1: ensemble rom com. We haven't seen that well, no ensemble Calm,

1038
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:28,080
Speaker 1: a ensemble Colm, a mainstream ensemble Colm, because there have

1039
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:35,120
Speaker 1: been indie ensemble comms. Who was the Who was the Scholar?

1040
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:42,879
Speaker 1: Mogel Dog and her Gonsomble colms starring Dilmot mcdingle whoo.

1041
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:45,879
Speaker 1: And I think that is the sign that our series

1042
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 1: has come to a close, because we've talked so much

1043
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:51,599
Speaker 1: about rom coms now that we are making up words

1044
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 1: and acreatives that do not exist. So listeners, please write

1045
01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:01,040
Speaker 1: to us, give us the words. Want to hear all

1046
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:04,639
Speaker 1: your thoughts about this UM, and we should probably set

1047
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 1: up some kind of stuff I've never told you, uh

1048
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:10,720
Speaker 1: must see movie list because we've gotten so many fantastic

1049
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:13,519
Speaker 1: suggestions and so many films that I now need to

1050
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:17,919
Speaker 1: see and have seen by virtue of your suggestions listeners,

1051
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:21,519
Speaker 1: So thank you for that. And mom stuff at how

1052
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:24,000
Speaker 1: soberk dot com is where you can send us your letters.

1053
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 1: You can also tweet us and moms of podcast or

1054
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages

1055
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:36,040
Speaker 1: to share with you right now. I have a letter

1056
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:39,320
Speaker 1: here from Caitlin in response to our Surfer Girl episode.

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01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:42,280
Speaker 1: She said, you expressed some doubt that Queen Emma was

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01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:44,760
Speaker 1: a real person or if her name was anglicized from

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01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:47,479
Speaker 1: a Hawaiian name. She was in fact a real person

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01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,640
Speaker 1: and my son attends the preschool named after her and

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01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:52,600
Speaker 1: which is part of a group of Catholic school she

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01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:56,920
Speaker 1: originally founded. It's very common for Hawaiian alite i e.

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01:09:57,160 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 1: Members of the ruling class to have English names. In

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01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:03,280
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, the elite often intermarried with the American

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01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:06,800
Speaker 1: missionaries and businessmen who came to Hawaii. In addition, the

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01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 1: elite admired the British royal system and society a great

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01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:13,240
Speaker 1: deal and borrowed from it in their post contact system

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01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 1: of governance, as well as established relationships and alliances with

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01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:21,880
Speaker 1: the Brits. For example, Queen Emma's husband's name was Alexander

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01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 1: Lee Hooliho, and the last Hawaiian king's name was King

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01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:30,480
Speaker 1: David Calicawa. It's difficult to overstate the influence American missionaries

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01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:33,880
Speaker 1: and businessmen had on modern Hawaiian history and culture, the

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01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:38,080
Speaker 1: names of individuals being only one small example. Kristen, I'm

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01:10:38,120 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 1: glad you enjoyed your visit to Hawaii. I've lived here

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01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 1: for thirteen years and still have to pinch myself when

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01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:45,519
Speaker 1: I'm sitting under a palm tree on the beach looking

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01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:48,280
Speaker 1: at at the incredible blue and beautiful ocean. Hope you

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01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 1: return to do a live show one of these days,

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01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 1: Oh my god, anytime. Oh yeah. I want to get

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01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:59,360
Speaker 1: up back to Hawaii as soon as possible. So I

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01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:04,640
Speaker 1: have a recommendation here from Christina for a rom com.

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01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:08,320
Speaker 1: She writes, I have the most amazing movie recommendation for you.

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01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 1: I'm not even through your Working Girl rom com episode,

1084
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:13,519
Speaker 1: and I haven't listened to the first episode in the series,

1085
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:15,479
Speaker 1: but I don't care because I love this movie and

1086
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:17,840
Speaker 1: I think you will too. And I highly doubt you're

1087
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:20,200
Speaker 1: gonna mention it because it's not as famous of an

1088
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:25,960
Speaker 1: oldie Wife Versus Secretary is a movie that clubs to

1089
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 1: death so many tropes. The gold digging secretary and the

1090
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 1: attractive women aren't smart and career driven women are happier

1091
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:35,680
Speaker 1: when they lay off work and get married. It's a

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01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:38,840
Speaker 1: wonderful movie you will like. In the vein of My

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01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:42,960
Speaker 1: Girl Friday and Working Girl without too many spoilers, the

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01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 1: wife played by Myrna Loy allows herself to be persuaded

1095
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:50,679
Speaker 1: on really shaky evidence that her very devoted husband, Clark Gable,

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01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:54,559
Speaker 1: is cheating on her with his secretary played by Gene Harlowe.

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01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 1: The secretary is actually a very smart and competent woman

1098
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:00,840
Speaker 1: who knows gender is holding her back, and it's also

1099
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:04,000
Speaker 1: dealing with her boyfriend played by Jimmy Stewart talk about

1100
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:08,519
Speaker 1: an ensemble romcom wanting her to quit working and settle down.

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01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:12,240
Speaker 1: It's funny, smart, and is so so freaking good. It's

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01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 1: the first movie where Gene Harlowe is in the sex

1103
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 1: pot role, but there's nothing sex pot about her. It

1104
01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:21,760
Speaker 1: addresses the idea that women can crave life satisfaction through

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01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:24,760
Speaker 1: a career and are just as competent and capable as

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01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:28,240
Speaker 1: men and are held back by societal rules and fears

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01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:30,799
Speaker 1: of women in the workplace. There are a few issues

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01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:33,680
Speaker 1: on the feminist front with it, but relatively minor, and

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01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:37,400
Speaker 1: overall it's very modern and liberal thinking for the times,

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01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:40,960
Speaker 1: despite coming before the postwar pushed to send women home.

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01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:43,920
Speaker 1: And it's not exactly like secretaries today don't deal with

1112
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 1: the same kind of thinking or that jealousy and fear

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01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:53,240
Speaker 1: of workplace romance. Wow, so that sounds fantastic, Christina, I'm

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01:12:53,280 --> 01:12:55,599
Speaker 1: adding it to my cue. I need like a month

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01:12:55,600 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 1: off to watch all of these movies. So thank you

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01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:01,080
Speaker 1: listeners for tuning in with us all summer for our

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01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 1: rom com series and keep your recommendations and letters coming. Mom.

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01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:07,800
Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email

1119
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:10,200
Speaker 1: address and for links to all of our social media

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01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:13,360
Speaker 1: as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts

1121
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:17,080
Speaker 1: with our sources. So you too can learn even more

1122
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:20,679
Speaker 1: about rom coms. Head on over to stuff Mom Never

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01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:27,599
Speaker 1: Told You dot com for more on this and thousands

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01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:37,680
Speaker 1: of other topics. Isit how stuff works dot com.