1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: we don't have a great show for you today. Professor 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 1: Danigo Young, the author of Wrong, How Media, politics and 6 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: identity drive our appetite for Misinformation, stops by to talk 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: about the state of American media and misinformation. But first 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: we have actor director Ben McKenzie, who will talk about 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: his upcoming film Everyone Is Lying to You for Money. 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,959 Speaker 1: You'll break down the schemes in the crypto world. Welcome 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: to Fast Politics. 12 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 2: Ben mckenzy, Mollie, thanks for having me. 13 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: So let's talk about crypto. You know, it's funny because, 14 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: as we were just talking about, you're an actor, but 15 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: you're also a writer. You've written a bunch about crypto, 16 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: and crypto is so interesting in the fact that it 17 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: is both scammy and also scammy. So talk to me 18 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: about where we are right now with crypto. I want 19 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: you first to start with how you got involved did 20 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: writing that quick? Now? 21 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 2: Sure? So? It was the pandemic and my profession, showbiz 22 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 2: was on ice. There was really no way to act 23 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 2: if you had needed to be six feet apart from 24 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 2: people at all times. Obviously, So I was really bored. 25 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 2: I was really really bored and spiraling, as so many 26 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 2: of us were. I saw the markets go down and 27 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 2: go back up, and I was like, oh, that's interesting. 28 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 2: I'd never really paid much attention to them. I have 29 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 2: a degree in economics from UVA, but I heavily used 30 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 2: it because I decided to become a knucker, so whatever. 31 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 2: I started looking at the market. So I was like, oh, 32 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 2: maybe I should invest didn't know what to invest in. 33 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: And a buddy of mine came to me, my buddy 34 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: Dave from UVA, so I've known him for twenty years. 35 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 2: He said, you got to buy bitcoin. A lot of 36 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 2: people have had this experience of a friend or someone 37 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 2: telling mess but it The difference with me was that 38 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 2: David given me terrible financial advice before he had encouraged 39 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 2: me to invest in it. What I think was a 40 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 2: penny stock pump and dump where we invested in a 41 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 2: company that had supposedly invented synthetic blood. This wasn't there 42 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 2: on noose. It was like a precursor. Anyway. We lost money, 43 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 2: He lost money. He wasn't scamming me. But when Dave 44 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: came back and said I sho buy a bit coin, 45 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 2: I was like, I'm not going to do it, but 46 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 2: I am going to look at it. And that led 47 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 2: me down a rabbit hole and it reached out to 48 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: a journalist, Jacob Silverman. We wrote a bunch of articles, 49 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 2: as you said, about it, and then sold a book 50 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 2: and wrote a book about it that came out in 51 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 2: July of twenty twenty three. 52 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: I love that you knew when you got the advice 53 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: from this friend that it was going to be better. 54 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we all have that for I love 55 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 2: him to death, but like, I'm not going to rely 56 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: on day for financial advice. The joke I make is 57 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 2: that it's the books about crypto, but it's really about 58 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 2: money and lying. And I know about money because of 59 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: becon and about lying because I'm an actor and I 60 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 2: do it for a living. 61 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: Right. 62 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 2: These guys were just full of shit, you know, Like 63 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 2: that's that's the bottom line is that, Mike, you know 64 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 2: you have a pretty good BS. You can probably relate 65 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: to this. You have a pretty good BS radar in politics, 66 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 2: but also in show this, everyone's lying to you. In 67 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: Showbaz all the time, it's like, that's just the currency 68 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 2: of the place. It's just like, what's the what's the degree, 69 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 2: what's the intention. You know, there's a lot of lies. 70 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: These guys were lying about financial products, which you know 71 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 2: is a little scary. So I felt like I needed 72 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 2: to kind of speak out about it because I was 73 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 2: afraid that a lot of people could lose money, and 74 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of amusing. I did, and I 75 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: was right, But of course it didn't matter, like a 76 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 2: ton of people lot lost money anyway. But it has 77 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: been a fun journey. 78 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: It's funny because it's not none of this is funny. 79 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: It's disturbing, but it's also super interesting. I actually had 80 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: your co author on and I remember a moment where 81 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: I was, you know, crypto is just a scam, right, 82 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: it is a scam, but it's also really bad for 83 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: the environment. 84 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, we went to the biggest crypto mine in the country, supposedly, 85 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 2: which is outside of my hometown of Austin. This is in 86 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 2: the book. It's called Windstone, and it took over a 87 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 2: former Alco aluminum smelting plant that shuttered around the subprime crisis. 88 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 2: And yes, and so the reason that they they bought 89 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 2: it was it has a big transformer or a connection 90 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: to the power grid where it can handle it like 91 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 2: a really high load. And so it's just football field 92 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 2: after football field of these computers stacked Florida ceiling, you know, 93 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 2: one hundred feet in the fifty feet in the air, 94 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: running endlessly and consuming all of this energy. I think 95 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: I think the sales pitch of crypto is the positive side, 96 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: right that the pitch is, Hey, do you hate the banks? 97 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 2: Everyone raises their hand. Crypto will fix everything. Vague vague 98 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 2: stories about how I'll fix everything. The reality is most 99 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: people are going to lose money. The money that is 100 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 2: made goes to people who I don't have a lot 101 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 2: of respect for, either people that are in jail or 102 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 2: people that have made money in ways that I don't rate. 103 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 2: And Trump coins a good example, right, like Trump I 104 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 2: think the Times reported this like something an eight hundred 105 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 2: thousand people are negative on their down on their money 106 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,679 Speaker 2: as of a few weeks ago, and like fifty people 107 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 2: made ten million or more. It's a market set up 108 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 2: to be manipulated and to have all those things that 109 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 2: shouldn't happen in a regulated market, like insider trading and 110 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: front running and wash trading and all this stuff. So 111 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 2: it's pretty bad. I think the assumption was, oh, all 112 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: these guys have gone to jail, this thing will go away. 113 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,359 Speaker 2: Even I I think was too cocky about it. But 114 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: Trump's reelection and his embraceive crypto, I mean everyone sees 115 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 2: it now. Now it's just like a free for all. Again, 116 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 2: what could possibly go wrong? 117 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like a lot of going wrong. So 118 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: you have trump Coin. The thing that I think is 119 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: interesting trump coin is somehow sponsored by Liberty Financial. Liberty 120 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: Financial I remember from part one of this whole apocalypse 121 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: when I went to cepac in the early twenty sixteen 122 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: ish seventeen ish era, they were not a crypto company. 123 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: Then they were some other kind of sketchy financial services company. 124 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know much about the history of it. 125 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 2: What I do think is interesting is that the you know, 126 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 2: one of my kind of dorky arguments, But what I'm 127 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 2: really passionate about was one of the problems with crypto 128 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 2: is it says we're going to replace that evil government 129 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 2: that's sprinting the money, which, by the way, we do 130 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 2: live in a representative democracy, like at least supposedly so, 131 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 2: Like the people, these evil people that are running the 132 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: government like we did put them in power, but we 133 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: don't want the money from the government. So you asked, well, 134 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 2: where's the money going to come from? And they don't 135 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 2: like to admit it, but the answer is corporations, private money, 136 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: right money. We've tried this before. It was the nineteenth century. 137 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 2: It was called the free banking era or the wildcat 138 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,679 Speaker 2: banking era. Banks were allowed to issue their own notes, 139 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 2: their own currency because we were trying to expand west 140 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 2: and provide all this economic activity, and basically it was 141 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 2: right for the fraud is the short or the wildcat 142 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 2: banks were called wildcat banks because you would only allowed 143 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 2: one branch of your bank. You'd set it up as 144 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 2: far away from your depositors as possible, wildcats roamed and 145 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 2: then once the other money you could run off with it. 146 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 2: So private money should just like I mean, anyone on 147 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: the left should be able to see why private money 148 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: is a bad idea, like instantaneously, but just in general, 149 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 2: like historically it's also a bad idea. Like we have 150 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 2: tried it. It didn't work very well. Facebook has tried 151 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: to meta with Hell they call themselves down has tried 152 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: their own currency before it got stopped, but they really 153 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 2: wanted to try their own currency. And now that Trump 154 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: is in office, I fear that that may happen again, 155 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 2: or it may happen for real. They may actually get 156 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 2: it through Congress and get private money out there. 157 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: One of the things that I think is super interesting 158 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: about this is these are like my beliefs a little bit. 159 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: But one of the things that we saw from twenty 160 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four was that they weren't able to regulate crypto. 161 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: We all saw it coming as a disaster, like it 162 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: must be the run up to the I mean, I 163 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: don't remember thinking this during the run up to the 164 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: credit crisis in two thousand and eight, but clearly the 165 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: subprime mortgages, somebody, I'm sure there were people out there 166 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: being like, you know, this is going to be bad. 167 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: Like we're giving people money to buy houses that clearly 168 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: can't afford the mortgage payments. So this is a similar thing. 169 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: We're using money that's not regulated. There's just not enough 170 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: there there. People don't understand. There's just not regulation. And 171 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: one of the biggest problems with crypto, and you tell 172 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: me if I'm right, is crypto has just like TikTok 173 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: has become very involved in labby and politicians. And one 174 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: of the things they do, and this is reported in 175 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: the New reported in the New York Times, which I 176 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: thought was really interesting, they run ads against an opponent. 177 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: So if you are a crypto, you know, and this 178 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: is on the left and the right, they will campaign 179 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: against your opponent, and they will, you know, run ads. 180 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: You know, it won't say they love crypto, it'll say 181 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: they're great for this or that or whatever constituents want. 182 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: This is all pressure just to not be regulator. 183 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: Absolutely, or to be regulated in a favorable way. I 184 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 2: part one hundred and thirty five million dollars into the 185 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 2: Lost Cycle, and crypto and the people associated with the 186 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 2: industry apparently accounted for almost half of all corporate donations 187 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 2: of the entire corporate Then don't think how much much 188 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 2: corporate money is in our politics. So it's an enormous amount. 189 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 2: And to your point about targeting people, Yeah, Katie Porter, 190 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 2: they spent a super pac pro crypto. Super Pac spent 191 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 2: ten million attacking Katie Porter. They spent forty million making 192 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: sure that Shared Brown could not get re elected in Ohio, 193 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 2: which was particularly sad for me. Because ale of shared Brown, 194 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 2: but also when I testified to the Senate Banking Committee 195 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 2: in December twenty two after Sam Bateman free you know 196 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 2: everything with Kabluly, Brown was the chair of the committee, 197 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 2: and he was like holding the line against this nonsense. 198 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: It's not like he's particularly anti crypto, you know. I 199 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: think he's a much more of a working class guy. 200 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,959 Speaker 2: But he was skeptical of what was going on, and 201 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 2: he and his staff were great and put together that hearing, 202 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 2: and then you know, a few years later he's out 203 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: forty million, has a lot of money for one race 204 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 2: with the Porter race. I think was this in the Times? 205 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 2: I think it was the NOS. The New Yorker did 206 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:55,239 Speaker 2: an article about this, and someone connected with that superpack 207 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 2: was anonymous, but went on the record saying this is 208 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 2: to intimidate you. This is and intimidate people. I'm paraphrasing, 209 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 2: but like, if you're anti crypto, we're going to come 210 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 2: after you. And all of that actually makes a perfect 211 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 2: kind of sense because if you think about crypto, so 212 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 2: the interesting thing about crypto as a quote unquote asset 213 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 2: is that there is no product. There isn't anything right, 214 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: There isn't a good or a service. There's bits of 215 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: computer code stored on these ledgers, a couple blockchains. So 216 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 2: it's the old saying like if you don't know the product, 217 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,599 Speaker 2: then you're the product. So the product is the consumer 218 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 2: getting duped out of their money. The way to keep 219 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 2: that thing going is to get much like the Ponzi 220 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 2: scheme that it is, is just to keep getting more 221 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: people in the door so you can keep you know, 222 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 2: pretending like this thing has value. The way to do 223 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 2: that is through marketing and and or political influence, and 224 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 2: so they've put a ton of money in there. The 225 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 2: Republican Party is obviously already on board with this, or 226 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 2: at least a lot of them are. But the Democrats, 227 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 2: they've bought off a number of Democrats, I would argue, 228 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: or certainly influence them, so they're probably crypto legislation. Signing 229 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 2: to law this year would be my bet, right. 230 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: And there is crypto legislation. The legislation is what you 231 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 1: would expect it to be, so talk about that. 232 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's called the Genius Act, so no stupid. Yeah, yeah. 233 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 2: I'm not an expert on banking regulation or any of 234 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 2: this stuff, so I may be you know, touch vague here, 235 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 2: just to like not please misspeak. But the gist is, 236 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 2: and I've gotten this from people that I respect, like 237 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 2: Hillary Allen, who's a professor of law at American University. 238 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 2: She and I testified, and instead of Banking Committee that 239 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 2: hearing I mentioned, she's written about crypto and all that 240 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 2: similarities of subprime and all of the mistakes we're making 241 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 2: again that we've made before. And the gist of the 242 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: legislation is that it will allow stable coins to get 243 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 2: into our bank. Stable Coins are cryptocurrency that's pegged one 244 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 2: to one with an actual currency. Supposedly the main ones tether. 245 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: One tether's treated as one dollar in the crypto casinos, 246 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 2: the crypto exchanges where people gamble on crypto. If that's 247 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 2: separate from the banking sector, then you know, people are 248 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 2: playing games and they're losing them and this is ours. 249 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 2: All this money that's flowing around. It's not that bad. 250 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 2: But but if that money is treated as real money 251 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 2: that can be parked in a bank, you know, you're 252 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: basically recreating the conditions for the subprime crisis and the 253 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 2: sense of money market funds. You know, where you would 254 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: have you'd get a return on your investment, and that 255 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 2: was a problem in two thousand and eight. I was 256 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 2: one of contributing factors of subprime. There's also a problem 257 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty that thankfully got dealt with. But you're 258 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:35,719 Speaker 2: basically introducing systemic risk into the banking system where if 259 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 2: there is a recession, and of course recessions are inevitable, 260 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: so at some point there will be a recession, people 261 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: are going to risk off. Right, Investors are going to 262 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 2: want to decrease their risks, so they're going to try 263 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 2: to cash out of this crypto Crypto the market is 264 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 2: notoriously illiquid. There'sn't actually anywhere near as much actual money 265 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 2: backing these things as they say there are, And so 266 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: they go to get their money and they can't get 267 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 2: it out because it's gone. And again, if that's set 268 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 2: writ from the banking system, it's one thing like FTX 269 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 2: blew up, and it didn't immediately take down our banking system, 270 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 2: but it did actually only less than six months later. 271 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: This is the gist of the article that I wrote 272 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 2: for Slate. It contributed directly to the Silvergate, Silicon Valley 273 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 2: and Signatures implosion. They were all three crypto banks, They 274 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 2: all had heavy exposure to crypto. It's not a coincidence. 275 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder if you could talk about their story 276 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: going right now, So another suspect is arrested in the 277 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: bitcoin kidnapping and torture case. Right, this was Tuesday Morning authority. 278 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: So the victim was an Italian man who was tortured 279 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: in a luxury townhouse for weeks. This is to get 280 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: his It's a token, right. 281 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 2: As keys, right, these keys. 282 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, this has always been a danger of crypto. Can 283 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: you explain it to us? 284 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 3: Yeah? 285 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 2: Sure, I mean the basic way to look at it, 286 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: the simplest way to look at it is you're creating 287 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 2: a gray or black market for something of value. Right, 288 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 2: There's these coins that can be traded back and forth 289 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 2: and can be sent instantaneously all over the world while 290 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: avoitting banks. So who would find that appealing criminals obviously. 291 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: So when people have accumulated crypto there, they can become targets, 292 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 2: right and quite frankly, in order to cash out of 293 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 2: the crypto and to not arouse suspicion from the authorities 294 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 2: and to avoid you know, the banks, because you mightn't 295 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 2: want to pay taxes, or you might not have gotten 296 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 2: directly or whatever you're putting yourself in a place. I'm 297 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 2: not talking about the regular person who's got like one 298 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 2: hundred bucks on coinbase. I'm talking about people, the whales, 299 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: the people with lots and lots of bitcoin. What's stopping 300 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 2: people from like doing what unfortunately seems to have happened 301 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 2: to this guy and just you know, torturing him to 302 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 2: get it out. There's lots of crime that happens in 303 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: crypto where people just you know, fall out of balconies, 304 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 2: and you know, there's some pretty horrible stories. Ask some 305 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 2: guy who's dismembered and stuffed in a trunk of a car, 306 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 2: and it's all pretty bad stuff. But the point I 307 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 2: think I come back to is like, well, that's the 308 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 2: reason you don't want that stuff is you know, you 309 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 2: want the monetary system to be something that we all 310 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 2: benefit from, We all sort of have some buy in. 311 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 2: Our failures to actually create this sort of better version 312 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: of our regulated system has led people to crypto. But 313 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 2: that's works. Just because different doesn't mean it's better. This 314 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 2: is works even when you win, you could end up torture. 315 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: Almost as if crypto seems like it's like Philt Morris right, 316 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: or old school cigarette companies or you know the companies 317 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: that were working so hard, or the oil and gas 318 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: companies working so hard to influence regulation for years and 319 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: years and years. 320 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. 321 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 2: Again, to my point, crypto doesn't have a product, so 322 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: it's very ironic. The crypto advocates will tell you bitcoin 323 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 2: has no marketing department, right, like it was just dropped online. 324 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 2: But actually, if you think about it, because crypto has 325 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 2: no part of crypto is only marketing. It's only the 326 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 2: ability to convince other people to buy it or to influence, 327 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 2: and that's or to convince people to legalize it. So 328 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 2: it has to spend, or it ought to spend. It's 329 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 2: smart of it to spend as much money as they 330 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 2: need to buy off as many legislators as they need to. 331 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 2: And I think they've done that. I think they've done 332 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 2: it with certain numbers of the Democratic Party. I think 333 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 2: Senator Gillibrand in New York here is unfortunately not on 334 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 2: the right side of this issue. I don't know her personally, 335 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: but that's just a fact. And she spent sponsorble legislation 336 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 2: with Senator Loomis of Wyoming. They were talking about letting 337 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 2: people invest their four oh one ks and irais into 338 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 2: Crypto before the crash, you know, and it's like, imagine 339 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 2: if that had happened. It happened a little bit. The 340 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: Ontario Teacher's pension fund invested in a thing called Celsia 341 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: Ponzi scheme that blew up. So yeah, I mean it's 342 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 2: really bad stuff. I'm hoping. Well, actually, I'll be honest 343 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: with you, Molly, I don't have a ton of hope 344 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: that the Congress is going to do the right thing. 345 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: So I'm hoping that maybe we can fix it before 346 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 2: it crashes later. But I'm not even sure that's possible. 347 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 2: It's really great, and it's like looking at this iceberg 348 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 2: in the distance and like, at some point we're going 349 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 2: to head it. I don't know how fast the boat's moving. 350 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 2: I don't know what's going to happen, but at some 351 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 2: point it's gonna blow up again. 352 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: Thank you, Ben Kinsey, Thank you for having me for sure. 353 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: Danago Young is a professor of communications and political science 354 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: at the University of Delaware and the author of Wrong, 355 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: How Media, politics and identity drive our appetite for misinformation. 356 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, Danna. 357 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me on, Molly. 358 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: So you're an academic and This book is called Wrong, 359 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: How media, politics and identity drive our appetite for misinformation 360 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: an incredibly important and interesting take, So talk us through 361 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: how you got here. 362 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 3: I was seeing so much research in my field around 363 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 3: sort of the nature of misinformation, and you know, this 364 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 3: was especially during COVID. There's lots of COVID misinformation about 365 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 3: vaccines and masks, and then there was of course misinformation 366 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 3: about the twenty twenty election that you know, led us 367 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 3: to January sixth, and I just kept thinking, there's all 368 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 3: this research on the supply of misinformation and what the 369 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 3: content is and all of these lies people believe in, 370 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 3: but there's not as much of a focus on the 371 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 3: demand side, that is, why do we want it? Not 372 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 3: why do we want to be lied to? But why 373 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 3: do we embrace fictions? And it's clear that that's there's 374 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 3: a real opportunity for social scientists like myself to dig 375 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 3: in a little bit too. Are what are the needs 376 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 3: that are being satisfied by holding belief and misperceptions? Because 377 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 3: if there wasn't an appetite for it, there wouldn't be 378 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 3: so much bullshit. That's just the reality. And so I 379 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 3: was kind of inspired by some inquiries that I was 380 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 3: getting early on in COVID. I don't know if you remember, 381 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 3: and I know we block it out because it was awful. 382 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 3: But in the spring of twenty twenty, when we didn't 383 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 3: really know what the hell was going on and we 384 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 3: weren't sure do we mask do we not mask? And 385 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 3: then there was this weird documentary that came out called Plandemic. 386 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 3: Oh yes, yeah, it was all lies, like Fauci is 387 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 3: benefiting and the thing was planned and all of this stuff. 388 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 3: I had some really thoughtful friends who were asking me like, oh, 389 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 3: have you seen this. It's kind of interesting, like maybe 390 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 3: COVID is a lie, and maybe maybe this and maybe that. 391 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 3: When I realized that these are well meaning people who 392 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 3: are just trying to make sense of chaos and they're 393 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 3: still uncertain, and I was reminded of a time when 394 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 3: I had the same impulse, and that time was when 395 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 3: my late husband was sick with a brain tumor, and 396 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 3: I went down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theory beliefs 397 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 3: for fundamental reasons that drive all of us, and that is, 398 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 3: you want to understand what's going on, you want to 399 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 3: have control over what's going on, and you want to 400 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 3: feel a part of a community of people who can 401 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 3: support you. So in the book, I talk about these 402 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 3: three c's, comprehension, control, and community. That are the fundamental 403 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 3: needs that drive us. And if there's information out there 404 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 3: that makes us feel like we get it and we 405 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 3: have agency and we're together with like minded people, it 406 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 3: doesn't matter if that information is true or false. It 407 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 3: is satisfying primal needs and that's what we're going to 408 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 3: go with. 409 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting, And you know, I have this 410 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: book coming out called How to Lose Your Mother about 411 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: how when my husband got diagnosed with cancer, how it 412 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: worked out for us now he had amass since pancreas 413 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: turned out to be the good short answer has turned 414 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: out to be the good cancer, right, the neuroendocrine. But 415 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: we went through that period of like what is it? 416 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 1: You know, how long do we all have? What is 417 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: this going to look like? What is our lives going 418 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: to look like? So I know that period quite well 419 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: because I just went through it, and I feel like 420 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 1: it is a very vulnerable period. So you can absolutely 421 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 1: draw the line from being vulnerable like that to trying 422 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: to make sense of the world, to how we were 423 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: as a culture right after COVID, So say more about that. 424 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that it still applies now, Molly. I mean, 425 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 3: we're all vulnerable and life is actually really hard, and 426 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 3: many of us experience hardships sort of at ebbs and flows, right, 427 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 3: you're like waiting for the other shoe to drop, when's 428 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 3: the next crisis? But for many people, life is a 429 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 3: series of painful crises and a lot of suffering. And 430 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 3: if you do not feel like you have mechanisms of control, 431 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 3: you're going to do whatever jiu jitsu you need to 432 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 3: do in your own mind to make you feel like 433 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 3: you have control. And for me, what's been interesting about 434 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 3: the response of the book is that it's kind of 435 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 3: just shifted for people how they think about their loved 436 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 3: ones who believe things that are untrue, and rather than 437 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 3: like judging them or being like, oh, what idiots, what morons, 438 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 3: it gets to the heart of something that we all share, 439 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 3: which is we're all just trying to get by, and 440 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 3: part of getting by is needing to feel hope. And 441 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 3: if the world itself does not provide you with hope, 442 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 3: you're going to find your own mechanisms for hope, and 443 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 3: unfortunately a lot of those are being exploited by some 444 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 3: really nefarious entities who are creating hope among certain groups 445 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 3: of people through the demonization of other groups of people. 446 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 3: That where it gets dangerous. 447 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: What does that look like? 448 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 3: What that looks like is is sort of offering people comprehension, control, 449 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 3: and community by creating false narratives of threat. So the 450 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 3: easiest one would be the great replacement theory. So the 451 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 3: conspiracy theory that says, for example, that Democrats are trying 452 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 3: to replace white people in the United States and bring in, 453 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 3: you know, racial and ethnic minorities to try to replace 454 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 3: white voters to win election time. 455 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: Right. 456 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 3: The reason that that is an attractive fiction to believe in. 457 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 3: If you are someone who feels like you lack agency 458 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 3: and power, you feel like you're voicesn't heard. You are 459 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 3: a white, middle class, working class person who feels like 460 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 3: the job opportunities that you thought were going to be 461 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 3: there aren't there for you. You feel like culturally and 462 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 3: so bad almost the above, right, Rather than thinking in 463 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 3: terms of the complex systems and the way that the 464 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 3: administrative state could actually serve you, it is far more 465 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 3: attractive to be like, those people are doing something against me, 466 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 3: to try to sabotage my power in society. So complex 467 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 3: systems are really we're not great at wanting to grapple 468 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 3: with them and how they work. What we are really 469 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 3: good at is identifying human cause and effect, very simple, like, 470 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 3: this is a bad entity doing this action that's causing 471 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 3: this outcome. There are these powerful people who are trying 472 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 3: to orchestrate this bad thing and it's hurting me. That's 473 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 3: how these things get weaponized. But the needs underlying them 474 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 3: are not inherently bad, They're inherently human. 475 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: I want you to talk about take it a step further, 476 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: so the Pandemic documentary. I remember when that came out. 477 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: I was in a group chat with a lot of 478 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: pretty affluent young women who were like, I have seen 479 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 1: this video and it makes a lot of sense to me. 480 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: And I was like what. I couldn't believe it. And 481 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: one of the things during the twenty twenty four cycle, 482 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: one of the many things I got wrong during the 483 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four cycle was I thought Trump wasn't reaching 484 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: out to women at all, and I was like, why 485 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: isn't he reaching out to women? That's odd, that is 486 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: very strange. But now what I realized is that Maha 487 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: was his woman outreach. I would love you to talk 488 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: about MAHA Make America Healthy Again, which is meant to 489 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: be ironic ultimately, and RFK Junior. 490 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 3: This is something that I've been grappling with even more 491 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,360 Speaker 3: recently in the you know, the book came out less year, 492 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 3: but I feel like this piece is so irrelevant right now. 493 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 3: What is the appeal of MAHA. 494 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: What is the. 495 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 3: Appeal of RFK Junior? The answer is kind of simple. 496 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 3: It is about individual agency in your physical health and 497 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 3: well being. Right that you don't need to rely on science. 498 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 3: You don't need to rely on like controlled trials and 499 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 3: meta analyzes conducted by people who have dedicated their life 500 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 3: to this study. That you, as a human can trust 501 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 3: your own experiences, your own intuition, and your own observations 502 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 3: of the world to make yourself healthy. How attractive is that, Molly? 503 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 3: I love that, and I think, right, I think that 504 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 3: we all want it, and I think that it's the 505 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 3: weaponization of it that's been dangerous against science, because if 506 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 3: we're all being honest, we all rely on intuition and 507 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 3: our gut a little bit. I don't know about you, 508 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 3: but I'm not like in a lab conducting studies in 509 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 3: a lab coat with a peatree dish. I trust scientists, right, 510 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 3: But that's because my social norms around me suggest to 511 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 3: me that science is to be trusted. But I also 512 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 3: my gut tells me that sciences are to be trusted. 513 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 3: Other people's thatts tell them science is not to be trusted, 514 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 3: and you should take ivermectin. Well, So what separates those two, 515 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 3: What separates those two is the sort of voices in 516 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 3: their ears that they're putting faith in. And I think 517 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 3: that if the folks who really care about science and 518 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 3: medicine and getting closer to truth allow for regular people 519 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 3: to have a little more agency and be a little 520 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 3: more open to the idea that, like, we get it. 521 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 3: Your intuition is telling you this or that, and as 522 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 3: long as it's not bad for you, then go ahead 523 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 3: and do that, right, go ahead and drink apple cider vinegar. 524 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 3: If it's not bad for you, go ahead, like, because 525 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 3: there are certain psychological benefits of allowing yourself to feel 526 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 3: that power. And you know, I take a stupid number 527 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 3: of vitamins every day, and I have a lot of 528 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 3: very science y friends who are like those actually aren't 529 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 3: doing anything. The empirical evidence is not suggesting they're working, 530 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 3: but they do something for me. They make me feel 531 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 3: like it's part of my morning routine of self care. 532 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: Right, So let's talk this through. How we got here 533 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: is through COVID. Right, was a pandemic. It was very 534 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: scary for a lot of people, including me. I found 535 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: it quite scary. People did not know what to do. 536 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: The doctors did not know what to do because it 537 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: was a once in a lifetime hopefully though who knows pandemic, 538 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: And I think that there was a feeling that doctors 539 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 1: got things wrong, which is what happens in a pandemic, right, 540 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: liken't you don't know what the virus is, you know, 541 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: like masking kids probably a mistake, but we didn't know 542 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: until we knew. That was the sort of moment I 543 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 1: think that we tipped over into unrealities. So talk us 544 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: through kind of what happened there with people taking advantage 545 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: of the culture of people. 546 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 3: Sure, so what should have happened in an ideal world 547 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 3: is that in that moment of uncertainty, in that moment 548 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 3: when we're all desperate to try to protect ourselves, what 549 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 3: should have happened is that we should have identified the 550 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 3: virus as the external threat, not each other. Yeah, not 551 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 3: each other, and not political parties as the expert. Unfortunately, 552 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 3: our polarization runs so deep, and we do know that 553 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 3: this trait called psychological reactants, which is feeling really angry 554 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 3: when you feel as though your autonomy is being constrained, 555 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 3: that tends to cluster more on the cultural right, and 556 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 3: they're probably genetic and social reasons for that. What that 557 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 3: means is that when there were mandates that came down, 558 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 3: those mandates were disproportionately hated by the right. Obviously also 559 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 3: were of course weaponized by political pundits in our media 560 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 3: environment who are like, how dare they tell us what 561 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:58,239 Speaker 3: to do? 562 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: Et cetera, and the RFP, the people who sell supplements 563 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: and vitamins and. 564 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 3: Multi level marketing. Yeah, yeah, well, because there's so much 565 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 3: money to be made by a snake oil salesmen when 566 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 3: everyone's freaking out right and taking advantage of the fact 567 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 3: that the real science, the true science, was changing, that 568 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 3: the scientists were saying different things over time, but that's 569 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 3: because the information was changing. But that created increased uncertainty 570 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 3: and increased distrust in science. I also think that the 571 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 3: medical community is dealing with a bit of blowback because 572 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 3: while they were so focused on containing the virus right 573 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 3: like they were thinking in terms of virology epidemiology, they 574 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 3: weren't thinking about societal health and the need for social 575 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 3: contact and community. Our adolescents, who were probably needing more 576 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 3: than ever to be connecting with one another, were stuck 577 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 3: into their rooms on their phones, which we're still dealing 578 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 3: with what the hell happened, both academically and in terms 579 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 3: of mental health. So I think a lot of parents 580 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 3: and communities are rightfully angry, and the anger, though I 581 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 3: think the anger is a bit misplaced because so much 582 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 3: of it is aimed at the scientists, when really it 583 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 3: shouldn't be aimed at the scientists. It should be aimed 584 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 3: at the sort of disconnect between science and public policy. 585 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 3: Right with the scientists didn't say here's what has to happen, 586 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 3: everyone needs to stay in their houses, right, wasn't scientists 587 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 3: who said that. It was our public officials who did 588 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 3: the best they could with the information they had and 589 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 3: said we're going to come up with these rules. Unfortunately, 590 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 3: I think that the trickle down effect of that has 591 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 3: been devastating for faith in science. I also think that 592 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 3: you can draw a straight line from the blowback against 593 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 3: COVID to the Trump administration's cuts to Higher ed A 594 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 3: and Harvard. Oh yeah right, It's like, oh, these are 595 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 3: the same people who wanted to keep me and my 596 00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 3: kids in my house for two years. 597 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: I would rephrase because I would say, I think Trump's 598 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: more on high right is from the Orbon playbook. It's authoritarianism. 599 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: But I think the support for it is from the 600 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: Maha crowd who said scientists never did anything good for 601 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,719 Speaker 1: us anyway, They kept my kid out of school, which 602 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: is why he's getting away with it. I would love 603 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: you to talk about RFK Junior because I think he's 604 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: a critical part. You would never have gotten RFK Junior 605 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: running healthcare in this country were it not for COVID, 606 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: like a slow motion car accident. So I wonder if 607 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: you could talk us through what RFK Junior does in 608 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: this moment that is a function of this happy talk. 609 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 3: Let's think back to the fact that we had this 610 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 3: kind of wonderful partnership public private partnership. Trump administration really 611 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 3: so much credit to that administration. Trump won for getting 612 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 3: the vaccine out to the public, forgetting the vaccine produced right. However, 613 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,239 Speaker 3: you have, you're still operating in this climate where you 614 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 3: have this new clustering of anti vaxers that is skewing 615 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 3: on the cultural right. OURFK Junior has made an entire 616 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 3: career out of drawing a false connection between vaccines and 617 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 3: autism and talking about the harms of vaccines. He has 618 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 3: an entire enterprise based on this, and he's made a 619 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 3: ton of money speaking over the years based on these lies. Now, 620 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 3: for folks who are nervous about the COVID vaccine because 621 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 3: it came to market so fast, because that was the 622 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 3: big thing, right, it came so fast. It's mRNA, which 623 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 3: is a new technology, and we don't really know what 624 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 3: this is. 625 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: What is there's a regular one that works less well too. 626 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 3: Right, But the idea that RFK Junior is already an 627 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 3: established voice in the anti vaxx space, just he is 628 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 3: the natural spokesperson to kind of push back against the vaccine, 629 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 3: and that the notion that you have these folks who 630 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 3: are so desperate to want to feel some sense of control. 631 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 3: Trump now was in a weird situation, right because he 632 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 3: fast tracked this vaccine to make it available. But he 633 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 3: also can't be the pro vax guy, because he's got 634 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 3: all of these supporters who are in this sort of 635 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 3: rear holistic right wing space. So he's like, you know, 636 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 3: the vaccine is here, weird people to take it, but 637 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 3: if you don't want it, don't get it. But I 638 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 3: think that it's the legacy because he was already in 639 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 3: that space for so many years that he became the 640 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 3: natural spokesperson for this sort of anti vax pushback. Something 641 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 3: really totally freaked me out when he became named head 642 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 3: of the HHS, And it was a trend on TikTok. 643 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 3: Trends on TikTok never fail to. 644 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,719 Speaker 1: Scare the shit out of me as well they should. 645 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 3: A trend of nurses who had worked in the ers 646 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 3: during COVID and after the fact, young nurses singing these 647 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 3: songs about how excited they were that RFK Junior was 648 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 3: now head of the HHS and he was going to 649 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 3: break the juggernaut that was big science, big pharma, big 650 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 3: medicine so that they, the nurses would finally be able 651 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 3: to deliver the real kind of care that they want 652 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 3: to deliver to their patients. And it was some like 653 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 3: country western song that they were singing Asleep Black Baby 654 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 3: basically like, now the RFK jr Is going to be 655 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 3: heading up. Hhs. I'm going to sleep like a baby. 656 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 3: And I was like, these are nurses. Something big is 657 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 3: going on here. And I saw dozens and dozens of these. 658 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 1: I was like, okay, yeah, so cripplingly, terrifying, just so scary. 659 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thank you. I hope you'll come back. 660 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 3: Thanks Molly, thanks so much. 661 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 662 00:34:54,800 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 663 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: minds and politics makes sense of all this chaos. If 664 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,720 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 665 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.