WEBVTT - #238 Jason Flom and Kim Kardashian on Julius Jones 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:07.160 Since our initial and second release of this episode, there 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.360 have been even more developments in the case of Julius Jones. 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:13.520 While the litigation continues around the issue of whether or 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.720 not the use of substitute drugs and leafal injections violates 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:20.280 the Eighth Amendment ban on Cruel and Unusual punishment, Oklahoma 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:25.279 stumbled blindly forward, causing yet another botched execution, this time 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:28.920 for John Marion Grant on November one, twenty twenty one. 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:33.080 Despite this tragic event and a recommendation from the Oklahoma 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:36.240 Board of Pardons and Paroles to commute Julius Jones's sentence, 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:40.680 his execution date continued to loom on the eighteenth, but 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:45.159 through the tireless advocacy of Julius's family, Kim Kardashian, the 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:49.839 Reverend C. C. Jones, Davis, Attorney Dale Bash, Scott Budnick, myself, 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:53.040 of course, had so many others, along with countless concerned 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:57.600 citizens like you. Governor Stitt finally granted Julius's clemency just 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:00.920 hours before he was set to be killed. Now, you 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:03.960 might recognize that the tone of my voice still sounds heavy, 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:07.400 and that's because although Julius will be spared, the fate 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:12.360 of another grizzly and bungled execution in Oklahoma, the conditions 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:16.440 of his clemency are hardly caused for celebration. The governor 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:20.240 commuted his sentence to life without the possibility of parole, 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:25.440 along with the gratuitously cruel stipulation that Julius shall never 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:30.880 be eligible to apply for or be considered for a commutation, pardon, 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:32.319 or parole. 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:33.640 For the rest of his life. 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:38.120 However, Julius's attorney, Dale Bash, assures me that the fight 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:44.160 for this innocent man's freedom is far from over. On 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:47.200 July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine, Paul Howell was shot 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.520 twice at a driveway to Edmund, Oklahoma, in a robbery 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:54.640 for his GMC suburban. According to his sister, the shooter 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.800 was an African American male wearing a red bandanna across 0:01:57.800 --> 0:01:59.880 his face and a stocking cap with up to an 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:04.320 Jim Harris sticking out from the bottom. According to numerous 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:08.200 non incentivized sworn affidavids, the co defendant in this case, 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:12.040 Chris Jordan, has since bragged about being the shooter and 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:16.040 framing his former friend Julius Jones. On the night of 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:19.560 the shooting, Julius was at home with his family the 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.840 evening following the murder. Chris Jordan spent the night at 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.800 the Joneses, which was when he said he hit the 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:30.040 gun in a second story call space. Confidential informants in 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:33.160 the stolen car trade, including a longtime associated Chris Jordan 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:39.079 ladel King, deflective investigators toward Chris Jordan and Julius. Chris 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:44.960 eventually gave seven statements riddled with inconsistencies, blaming Julius Jones 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:49.040 for the murder. On July thirtieth, police searched at Jones's 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:52.520 home and found the gun exactly what Chris Jordan is 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:56.640 believed to have hidden it. With nothing presented to defend 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.919 against the planted evidence and the incentivized testimony of ladel 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:04.559 King and Chris Jordan, Julius was sent to Oklahoma's death Row. 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:07.440 On this episode, we team up with one of Julius's 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:11.799 fierce's advocates, Kim Kardashian, as we speak with his attorney, 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:16.520 Dale Bash and his mother and sister, Madeline and Antoinette Jones. 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:34.280 This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flopp Today, we're here 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:36.600 to talk about Julius Jones, who has been on death 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.320 row in Oklahoma for over twenty years for a crime 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:43.200 he didn't commit. And I'd like to welcome a very 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.920 special guest. You'll recognize her name, and you'll recognize her 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:50.400 from having been on this podcast before, Kim Kardashian West. 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.520 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:55.400 Hi, thank you for having me again. 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:58.640 I can't overstate the importance of you being here today 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.760 with us, Kim, because if we don't take every possible 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:04.320 action that we can, and I mean the audience too, 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.280 Julius will be executed in Oklahoma as early as this 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:10.840 fall for a crime we know he didn't commit. Can 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:13.080 you tell us when you first heard about this case. 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:19.040 Yeah, I first started to receive letters. They were from 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:23.440 a woman named Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her, 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:28.200 and she was kind of reiterating the same information about 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:34.000 Julius and mentioned the documentary with Viola Davis. So I thought, 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:38.039 I have to look into this. And I say this 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.119 all the time because we have such an amazing group 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:45.839 of people between you and Scott Budnick, my attorneys and everyone. 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:50.839 When all of the big players really feel the same 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:54.440 way about a case, I know that we have to 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:57.960 be loud, and I feel in my soul that we 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:02.320 are early enough because execution date for Julius hasn't been 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:05.960 set yet that I feel like now is the time 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.640 where we all just have to come together and really 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:10.120 make a difference in his life. 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:13.479 What about this particular case, about his case makes you 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:17.000 so passionate and what sticks out to you the most 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:18.359 about Julius's case? 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:24.040 There's a few things. Being a young honor roll student athlete, 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:28.880 you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.680 always says what an amazing person he is, that grew 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:37.200 up with him, his coaches, and then to see getting 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:41.800 caught up with the wrong group of people and getting 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.440 set up the way he was just really rubbed me 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:49.719 the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life, 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:53.440 was just taken away. It always goes back to me 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.360 thinking about what if that was my son? What would 0:05:56.400 --> 0:06:00.280 I do if my son got set up like this? 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:04.040 So we got to fight for this guy, We got 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.200 to help him get his life back. 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:09.719 The next voice you hear is going to be the 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:14.040 voice of Dale Bash, an assistant federal public defender who 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:19.760 is definitely doing his part to help to unravel this nightmare? 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:21.839 When did you get involved with it? 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:27.720 In twenty and sixteen, our office was appointed to represent 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.200 Julius in clemency proceedings. 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:33.159 And this really is a terrible crime. I mean, you 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.680 have Paul Howell, a forty five year old church deacon 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:40.080 and business owner, family guy, returning to his parents' home 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:42.679 in the Oklahoma City suburb of Edmund from a school 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.600 supply shopping trip with his seven and nine year old 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.440 daughters and his sister, Megan Toby in the car. Now, 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:51.919 as he was getting out of the nineteen ninety seven 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:55.400 GMC suburban, a black man and a stocking cap with 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.160 about an inch of hair sticking out from the bottom 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.640 and a red bandana tied around his face stepped up 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:05.200 to Paul and demanded the suburban and fired his gun twice, 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:11.440 mortally wounding Paul. As his daughters and sister ran screaming 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:13.880 to the house for cover, the gunman sped away in 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:16.400 the suburban. And from what we know now, and remember 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:18.680 this is an addition to what was known when we 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.120 first released this episode, according to three men and counting, 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:25.840 not just the original two. These are three men who 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.600 all knew Chris Jordan in prison and or in jail. 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:32.960 And none of these men have been incentivized in any way, okay, 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.720 And they've all sworn to have been told by Chris 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:40.160 Jordan directly that Chris did this shooting and that his 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:44.119 former friend Julius Jones was not involved. I mean, that's 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:45.920 powerful stuff right there. 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:46.440 Okay. 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:50.240 But at the time of this investigation, the cops went 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.240 looking for the usual suspects in the stolen car trade. 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:55.760 First they went to a guy named Kermit Lottie. He 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:58.520 led them to laddel King, who was an associate of 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:01.880 Chris Jordan, who then had them to Jordan and eventually 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:07.040 Julius Jones. But the cops caught Chris Jordan first, Right, 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.200 So can you walk us through some of the things 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:12.120 that Chris Jordan told them? 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:17.240 Sure. On July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine, according to 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:21.120 Chris Jordan, who is a co defendant in this case, 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:26.280 he and Julius were driving around looking for a suburban 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:31.160 to jack. They spotted a car, followed it into a neighborhood, 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:35.560 and according to Chris Jordan, Julius jumped out of the 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:39.360 car when the car pulled into the driveway and shot 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.480 Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken into custody, that's 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:48.439 what he told the police, and they immediately focused on Julius. 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:53.440 Tunnel vision set in. But what we now know is 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:58.160 Chris made seven different statements to the police and those 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:03.760 statements were in constant and at one point the police say, 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.520 what you're telling us, it's not adding up. We don't 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:12.080 have this backwards, do we. So the police knew that 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:16.320 there were problems with what Chris was telling them, but 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:18.840 the police continued to focus on Julius. 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:22.360 And something that really struck me when reading about this 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:26.439 case is that, according to the non incentivized witnesses who 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.880 knew Chris Jordan in jail, prison, or both, as well 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:33.600 as to statements that Jordan himself later made to the police, 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:37.800 Chris Jordan on the night after the shooting, but before 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:42.000 he was arrested and gave his initial statement, slept at 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:45.440 the Joneses home. Chris left the Jones' home, which is 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:50.079 where he said he stashed the murder weapon. So on 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:53.760 its face, the gun being found at the Joneses looks 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:58.120 damning for Julius at that time, but now in hindsight, 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:00.880 it just further points in that the direction of Chris 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:02.160 Jordan's culpability. 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:07.800 Well, we know that when Chris was interviewed by the police, 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.600 he was asked, so you hid the murder weapon, and 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:16.800 he responded yeah. Chris also told one of the men 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.760 that he spoke to while in custody in the county 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:23.120 jail that he wrapped the gun used to commit the 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:28.000 murder and hid it in Julius's parent's house. We understand 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:33.440 that Chris was sitting in a police car outside of 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:38.600 Julius's house after the police stormed the home and then 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:44.000 went looking for the gun and immediately went to where 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.479 we think Chris told them the gun would be located. 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:52.600 We also know that there were other people involved, namely 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:55.960 Kermit Lottie and Ladel King, that had a lot to 0:10:56.080 --> 0:11:01.400 gain by pointing in Julius's direction away from themselves. 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:03.680 Can you tell us about Kermit and Lyddell. 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:08.240 Kermit Lottie was a man who ran a chop shop 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:12.240 on the south side of Oklahoma City, and it was 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:16.360 a well known establishment in the trade of stealing cars. 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:22.360 Laddel King was a close confidante of Kermit's and was 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:26.480 known for his involvement in that trade. Laddel King was 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:32.040 also a confidential informant, and in exchange for providing information 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:35.360 to the police, he would be allowed to carry on 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:39.440 with some of his illegal activities. At the time of 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:45.160 Julius's trial, laddel King was facing bogus check charges and 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:49.480 as an habitual offender he was looking to twenty years, 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:54.120 and in exchange for his testimony, he got ten years probation. 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:58.000 Liddell was one of the guys that pointed the finger 0:11:58.240 --> 0:11:59.320 at Julius. 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:04.160 So this paints a pretty strong picture of a sort 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:04.760 of a unit. 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:05.040 Right. 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:10.040 You had Chris Jordan, who was a troubled kid. You 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:15.000 have these two other known criminals, particularly ensconced in the 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.960 stolen car business, and then you have a car that 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.440 gets stolen in a violent robbery a tragic death. But 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.640 we know a number of things that would make anyone 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.720 go wait. I mean, for instance, we know that the 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.440 number of shellcasings tuned the scene was something that was 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.640 known and volunteered by Chris and his interrogation before the 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:37.440 police even asked or suggested it. We know that the 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:42.920 witnesses were incentivized. We know that the description matches someone 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.359 very much like Chris Jordan, who doesn't look like Julius. 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:51.000 Megan Toby, mister Howell's sister, was in the car with 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:54.480 him when he pulled into the driveway, and she testified 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:58.320 that she saw the person who shot her brother, and 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:03.840 she described him as African American, wearing a red bandana 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:08.480 across his face, wearing a black stocking cap, and half 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:11.400 an inch of hair hanging out from under the cap. 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:17.520 What's critical about that is Julius wore his hair close crop, 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:21.199 very short. Chris Jordan, on the other hand, wore his 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:25.440 hair in braids. And how do we know that Julius's 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:30.439 hair was short. Ten days prior to mister Howell's murder, 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.800 Julius got picked up on a traffic stop and had 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:38.080 a mug shot taken. So there's an official government photo 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:43.360 of Julius with short hair, and that photograph was never 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.680 shown to the jury at trial. We also know that 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:51.480 Julius was at home with his family at the time 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:56.480 mister Howell was shot and killed, and later that evening, 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:02.400 Chris and Julius were supposed to down to Norman, Oklahoma, 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:06.480 which is about twenty minutes south of Oklahoma City. Julius 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:10.520 was at home getting a little agitated because Chris said 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:13.559 he would be there early in the evening and Kristen 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.720 would show up until close to midnight. 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.320 We also have with us Julius's sister Antoinette and his 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:23.760 mother Madeline. Now Here you have a son who is 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:28.200 excelling in so many ways, co captain of three different 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:33.840 sports teams in high school, academic scholarship at Oklahoma University, 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.760 great looking young man with his whole life laid out 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:42.240 in front of him, and then everything takes a terrible, 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:43.280 terrible turn. 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:50.320 It's been a twenty plus year shot and I really 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:54.200 can't often find the worst explain what it's been like. 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:56.480 We just got blindsided. 0:14:56.960 --> 0:14:59.560 It sure seems like he went from the American dream 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:03.720 to the American nightmare. And let's go to that faithful 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.000 night July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine. Can you tell 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:10.080 us what was happening that night and why and how 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:12.360 you know that Julius could not possibly have been there. 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:17.000 That was kind of a busy day for us. I 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:23.520 was trying to do Antoinette's hair, was fixing spaghetti, but 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:24.520 Julius was. 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.840 There all day long. They played monopoly. 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:29.640 There were a few of us playing Monopoly. 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:34.520 Julius was there playing Monopoly, and my oldest brother, Antonio 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.400 and another young man that. 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:37.840 Was over there. 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:40.240 They got mad at me because I gave Jus all 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:42.800 my money and property. I had to do that because 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:45.400 I had to get my hair done. So it's specific 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.920 things like that, like I know that it was around Jesus' birthday. 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:52.360 Jesus friand had a big chocolate chip cookie that she 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.600 gave to him for his birthday. Tony kept going in 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.240 and out of the refrigerator to take pieces of the cookie. 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.440 And later on that day, my brother Antonio had to 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:03.920 go to work. My mother went to go take him 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:06.360 to work. Julius looks in the refrigerator and he's like, 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:08.920 oh my goodness. He was like, who ate my cooking? 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:10.760 And I kid you not. He waited at the back 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.600 door in the kitchen, pacing back and forth, waiting for 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:15.520 Mom to come home so he could tell that somebody 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:17.640 ate his cookie. So I kind of was like, well, 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.320 you know, I was like, Tony h a cookie, and 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:22.040 so I'll never forget that day. 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:25.920 So it doesn't seem like someone who just murdered somebody 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.600 would be particularly concerned over how much of a cookie 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.840 was left in the refrigerator or not. I mean, that's 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.480 just one of many, many things, you know. So July 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.360 twenty eighth, he's home with you, sounds like sort of 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:42.360 a typical family night. But then things changed dramatically in 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:46.480 the next thirty six hours. Right the twenty ninth, Chris 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:49.640 is at your home. Right, he spent the night that night, 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.640 which is when he had the opportunity to plant the gun. 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:56.040 Do you recall Chris being at your house that night? 0:16:56.520 --> 0:17:01.480 Thursday was trash day and Jews usually take some my 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:05.400 trash out and sometimes we sit and talk on the walkway, 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:09.080 But Chris was kind of like a shadow was there? 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:11.200 Answer that, were you there that night? Do you remember 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:12.359 if Chris was at the house? 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.600 I know Chris was there because I heard him come 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.280 upstairs and go into the room that was Julius. 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.760 The very next day, the police would surround the Jones's house. 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:24.760 Julius family was purp walked out of their own home, 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:27.360 and Chris Jordan would be in a police car out 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.040 front to tell them exactly where the murder weapon was hidden. 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:34.240 Julius was appointed a good attorney, mister Barry Albert, who 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:38.000 was known for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style, 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:42.800 But mister Albert he died shortly before the trial, leaving 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:47.639 his new public defenders woefully unprepared, so much so that 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.400 they didn't put on any defense whatsoever. 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:55.320 When it came time for Julius to present his case, 0:17:55.960 --> 0:18:01.000 the lawyers simply stood up and said the defense. The 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:05.800 lawyers did not put on testimony from the family who 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:10.880 would have presented an alibi. The lawyers did not investigate 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:15.320 and present evidence from two people who were in jail, 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:19.639 who didn't know each other and independently came forward and 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:24.320 said that Chris Jordan told them that he said Julius up. 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:27.439 He told one of the men that he planted the 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:31.240 weapon in Julius's house, and he told both of the 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:34.280 men that he would be getting out of prison after 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:38.640 serving a fifteen year sentence in exchange for his testimony 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:44.560 against Julius. The inconsistent statements that Chris made to the 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:50.600 police during his interrogation were never explored by the defense 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.879 when they had an opportunity to cross examine Chris. 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:59.639 It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact, it's totally understandable. Why 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:01.520 did your would have voted to convict They didn't have 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:04.159 any information to work with except what the state was saying. 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:09.199 What was it like seeing your baby going through this trial. 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.879 Well, at the beginning, I was very confident because the 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:17.959 attorney that we had, mister Abbot, he was very thorough 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:19.720 and he talked to us and he said, I just 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:24.800 need to get Chris on the stand. Miss Abbot had 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:30.080 a plan before he passed away. The opponent attorneys they 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:34.440 wanted more time, and then after he passed away than 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:37.960 they wanted to immediately start up with trial and everything. 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:41.040 And we were there every day. But one of the 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:45.160 excuses after Miss Abbot had passed, they said the reason 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:47.800 they didn't call us on the standing after they had 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:52.879 sentenced Julius because they didn't know we were there. It was 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:54.360 just a mockery. 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:58.119 I was devastated. I was devastated when I heard the 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:01.000 word we risked. I think I was a little older 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:04.640 than thirteen, and I didn't understand how you couldn't put 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:07.080 people on the stand to help my brothers defense. 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.040 There was no defense there. And I mean it just 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:19.159 that pisces me out. 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:32.320 It infuriates me to hear when cases when there's ineffective counsel. 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:36.480 It just makes me so mad. Especially if it's an 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:39.480 appointed attorney, that you think that if you don't have 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:41.520 the money to afford an attorney, and so you're getting 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:44.760 appointed one, that they're going to be ineffective and not 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:47.840 help but actually hurt your case so much. I mean, 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:51.080 I don't know how I could live with myself if 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:55.000 I was an attorney like that. But I think, especially 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:58.639 with Julius's case, he just didn't get a fair trial. 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:02.399 Bottom line, as we've heard at Julius's trial, the defense 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:05.040 didn't even give the jury much information to work with. 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:08.560 But believe it or not, it gets even worse. 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:12.520 During the trial in the jury room, one of the 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:16.720 jurors said out loud, why are we wasting our time here? 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:21.719 We ought to just take that end out back and 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:27.200 bury him outside the jail, and one of the jurors 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:31.520 approached a bailiff told him what she heard and asked 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:34.920 to talk to the judge on the record. The judge 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:38.400 sort of dismissed it as well, he could have been 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:42.320 talking about Osama bin Laden. We don't know who the 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:47.119 juror was talking about. Take the N word out of 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:51.840 the equation. You still have a juror who made up 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:55.760 his mind and was going to convict Julius and sentence 0:21:55.840 --> 0:22:00.080 him to death. Throw the N word in there, and 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:05.240 the racism is just oozing from this case. We also 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:11.520 know that between nineteen ninety five and twoenty twelve, there 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:17.119 was a study conducted in Oklahoma on race and the 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:21.720 death penalty. The authors concluded that an African American male 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:25.640 who is convicted of killing a white male is three 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:29.440 times more likely to get the death penalty in Oklahoma. 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:36.440 So at trial, yet racism incentivized lying witnesses and no 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:40.080 defense whatsoever. So Dale, when you took on this case, 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:42.439 you guys had your work cut out for you, to 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:46.359 say the least. But there was a new law in 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:50.000 place in Oklahoma that allowed you to do DNA testing 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:53.920 in post conviction, So you tested the red bandana right. 0:22:54.320 --> 0:23:00.120 It was sitting in evidence for almost twenty years. Doctor Shapiro, 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:03.520 he used to be with the Department of Forensic Biology 0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:07.840 at the Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:12.600 the DNA report that was produced by body Selmark and 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:17.400 came to some conclusions. So one of the things that 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:23.159 Megan Toby, the victim's sister, testified to was that the 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:27.480 shooter yelled something at her is she was running away, 0:23:27.840 --> 0:23:33.360 and we identified a stain on the bandana, and we 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:38.600 wanted to check if that stain was saliva, and it 0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:43.320 came back negative is to saliva. So we don't even 0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:49.320 know if that bandana was the same bandana that the 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:53.920 assailant wore, because there's not the saliva stain on it 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:57.880 that should be there. Because the assailant yelled. 0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:01.600 Don't forget, this was July in Oklahoma, right, So you 0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:03.960 do have to suspend a lot of this belief to 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:08.240 come up with the conclusion that someone Julius or anyone 0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:12.600 is going to be in an extremely high pressure situation 0:24:12.720 --> 0:24:16.880 on a very hot day and not sweat or breathe 0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:19.640 into the bandana that they're supposedly wearing on their face. 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:22.159 We don't know. We'll never know whether the gun was 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:24.560 wrapped in the bandana or whether the gun was taken 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:27.560 and placed in the bandana by the authorities when they 0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:30.119 were taking it out. One would hope they would put 0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:32.880 it in an evidence bag instead, But the state made 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:37.119 a big deal about the fact that there were several 0:24:37.119 --> 0:24:40.520 different people's DNA on this bandana, and that one of 0:24:40.560 --> 0:24:45.080 the people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius. Can 0:24:45.119 --> 0:24:48.480 you elaborate on what that really means, because some people 0:24:48.480 --> 0:24:50.040 would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute, 0:24:50.080 --> 0:24:52.640 Then you know, I guess I got the right guy 0:24:52.680 --> 0:24:53.080 after all. 0:24:53.680 --> 0:24:59.679 Right, case closed. But the testing indicates that the DNA 0:25:00.240 --> 0:25:07.679 was degraded and was defined as trace DNA, which suggests 0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:11.879 that the DNA could have been transferred to the item. 0:25:12.560 --> 0:25:16.919 So the bandana is found in Julius's house, it's handled 0:25:17.000 --> 0:25:22.679 by the police, it's in his bedroom. It's very possible 0:25:23.280 --> 0:25:27.280 that any DNA on there that could be consistent with 0:25:27.440 --> 0:25:32.320 Julius's could come about as a result of the transfer 0:25:32.800 --> 0:25:33.600 of the DNA. 0:25:34.320 --> 0:25:38.000 So here's what we're faced with. It seems to me 0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:41.160 and correct me if I'm wrong on any of these fronts. 0:25:41.560 --> 0:25:46.120 Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His hair was short 0:25:46.520 --> 0:25:48.760