Speaker 1: Since our initial and second release of this episode, there
Speaker 1: have been even more developments in the case of Julius Jones.
Speaker 1: While the litigation continues around the issue of whether or
Speaker 1: not the use of substitute drugs and leafal injections violates
Speaker 1: the Eighth Amendment ban on Cruel and Unusual punishment, Oklahoma
Speaker 1: stumbled blindly forward, causing yet another botched execution, this time
Speaker 1: for John Marian Grant on November one. Despite this tragic
Speaker 1: event and a recommendation from the Oklahoma Board of Pardons
Speaker 1: and Paroles to commute Julius Jones's sentence, his execution date
Speaker 1: continued to loom on the eighteenths but through the tireless
Speaker 1: advocacy of Julius's family, Kim Kardashian, the Reverend C. C. Jones, Davis,
Speaker 1: Attorney Dale Bache, Scott Budnick, myself, of course, it's so
Speaker 1: many others, along with countless concerned citizens like you. Governor
Speaker 1: Stitt finally granted Julius's clemency just hours before he was
Speaker 1: set to be killed. No, you might recognize that the
Speaker 1: tone of my voice still sounds heavy, and that's because
Speaker 1: although Julius will be spared, the fate of another grizzly
Speaker 1: and bungled execution in Oklahoma, the conditions of his clemency
Speaker 1: are hardly caused for celebration. The governor commuted his sentence
Speaker 1: to life without the possibility of parole, along with the
Speaker 1: gratuitously cruel stipulation that Julius shall never be eligible to
Speaker 1: apply for or be considered for a commutation, pardon, or
Speaker 1: parole for the rest of his life. However, Julius's attorney,
Speaker 1: Dale Beach assures me that the fight for this innocent
Speaker 1: man's freedom is far from over. On July, Paul Howell
Speaker 1: was shot twice at the driveway into Edmund, Oklahoma, in
Speaker 1: a robbery for his GMC suburban. According to his sister,
Speaker 1: the shooter was an African American male wearing a red
Speaker 1: band down across his face and a stocking cap with
Speaker 1: up to an Jip Harris sticking out from the bottom.
Speaker 1: According to numerous non incentivized sworn Affi Davits, the code
Speaker 1: defender in this case, Chris Jordan's, has since bragged about
Speaker 1: being the shooter and framing his former friend Julius Jones.
Speaker 1: On the night of the shooting, Julius was at home
Speaker 1: with his family The evening following the murder, Chris Jordan's
Speaker 1: spent the night at the Joneses, which was when he
Speaker 1: said he hit the gun in a second story call
Speaker 1: space Confidential informants in the stolen car trade, including a
Speaker 1: longtime associated Chris Jordan, ladele King, deflected investigators toward Chris
Speaker 1: Jordan and Julius. Chris eventually gave seven statements riddled with inconsistencies,
Speaker 1: blaming Julius Jones for the murder. On July thirty, police
Speaker 1: searched at Jones's home and found the gun exactly what
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan is believed to have hidden it. With nothing
Speaker 1: presented to defend against the planted evidence and the incentivized
Speaker 1: testimony of liddel King and Chris Jordan's, Julius was sent
Speaker 1: to Oklahoma's death row. On this episode, we team up
Speaker 1: with one of Julius's fierce's advocates, Kim Kardashian, as we
Speaker 1: speak with his attorney, Dale Bache and his mother and sister,
Speaker 1: Madeline and Antwina Jones. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Speaker 1: Flopper today, we're here to talk about Julius Jones, who
Speaker 1: has been on death row in Oklahoma for over twenty
Speaker 1: years for a crime he didn't commit. And I'd like
Speaker 1: to welcome a very special guest. You'll recognize her name,
Speaker 1: and you'll recognize her from having been on this podcast before.
Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian West. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Speaker 1: flam Hi. Thank you for having me again. I can't
Speaker 1: overstate the importance of you being here today with us, Kim,
Speaker 1: because if we don't take every possible action that we can,
Speaker 1: and I mean the audience too, Julius will be executed
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma as early as this fall for a crime
Speaker 1: we know he didn't commit. Cam, can you tell us
Speaker 1: when you first heard about this case. Yeah, I first
Speaker 1: started to receive letters. They were from a woman named
Speaker 1: Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her, and she was
Speaker 1: kind of reiterating the same information about Julius and mentioned
Speaker 1: the documentary with Viola Davis. So I thought, I have
Speaker 1: to look into this. And I say this all the
Speaker 1: time because we have such an amazing group of people,
Speaker 1: between you and Scott Budnick, my attorneys and everyone. When
Speaker 1: all of the big players really feel the same way
Speaker 1: about a case, I know that we have to be loud,
Speaker 1: and I feel in my soul that we are early
Speaker 1: enough because an execution date for Julius hasn't been set
Speaker 1: yet that I just I feel like now is the
Speaker 1: time where we all just have to come together and
Speaker 1: really make a difference in his life. What about this
Speaker 1: particular case, about his case makes you so passionate and
Speaker 1: what sticks out to you the most about Julius's case,
Speaker 1: There's a few things. Being a young, honorable student athlete,
Speaker 1: you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around
Speaker 1: always says what an amazing person he is, that grew
Speaker 1: up with him, his coaches, and then to see getting
Speaker 1: caught up with the wrong group of people and getting
Speaker 1: set up the way he was just really rubbed me
Speaker 1: the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life,
Speaker 1: was just taken away. It always goes back to me
Speaker 1: thinking about what if that was my son? What would
Speaker 1: I do if my son got set up like this?
Speaker 1: So we gotta fight for this guy. We got to
Speaker 1: help him get his life back. The next voice you
Speaker 1: here is going to be the voice of Dale Bache,
Speaker 1: an assistant federal public defender who is definitely doing his
Speaker 1: part to help to unravel this nightmare? When did you
Speaker 1: get involved with it? In two thousand and sixteen, our
Speaker 1: office was appointed to represent Julius in clemency proceedings. And
Speaker 1: this really is a terrible crime. I mean, you have
Speaker 1: Paul Howell, a forty five year old church deacon and
Speaker 1: business owner, family guy, returning to his parents home in
Speaker 1: the Oklahoma City suburb of Edmund from a school supply
Speaker 1: shopping trip with his seven and nine year old daughters
Speaker 1: and his sister, Megan Toby in the car. Now, as
Speaker 1: he was getting out of the GMC suburban, a black
Speaker 1: man and a stock and cap with about an inch
Speaker 1: of hair sticking out from the bottom and a red
Speaker 1: bandanna tied around his face stepped up to Paul and
Speaker 1: demanded the suburban and fired his gun twice, mortally wounding Paul.
Speaker 1: As his daughters and sister ran screaming to the house
Speaker 1: for cover, the gunmen sped away in the suburban. And
Speaker 1: from what we know now, and remember this is an
Speaker 1: addition to what was known when we first released this episode,
Speaker 1: according to three men and counting, not just the original two.
Speaker 1: These are three men who all knew Chris Jordan's in
Speaker 1: prison and or in jail and none of these men
Speaker 1: have been incentivized in any way, Okay, And they've all
Speaker 1: sworn to have been told by Chris Jordan directly that
Speaker 1: Chris did this shooting and that his former friend Julius
Speaker 1: Jones was not involved. I mean, that's powerful stuff right there. Okay.
Speaker 1: But at the time of this investigation, the cops went
Speaker 1: looking for the usual suspects in the stolen car trade.
Speaker 1: First they went to a guy named Kermit Lotty. He
Speaker 1: led them to Lidel King, who was an associate of
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan's, who then add them to Jordan's and eventually
Speaker 1: Julius Jones. But the cops caught Chris Jordan's first, right,
Speaker 1: So can you walk us through some of the things
Speaker 1: that Chris Jordan's told them? Sure. On July, according to
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan's, who is the co defendant in this case,
Speaker 1: he and Julius were driving around looking for a suburban
Speaker 1: to jack. They spotted a car, followed it into a neighborhood,
Speaker 1: and according to Chris Jordan's, Julius jumped out of the
Speaker 1: car when the car pulled into the driveway and shot
Speaker 1: Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken into custody. That's
Speaker 1: what he told the police, and they immediately focused on
Speaker 1: Julius tunnel vision set in. But what we now know
Speaker 1: is Chris made seven different statements to the police and
Speaker 1: those statements were in concer system and at one point
Speaker 1: the police say, what you're telling us, it's not adding up.
Speaker 1: We don't have this backwards, do we. So the police
Speaker 1: knew that there were problems with what Chris was telling them,
Speaker 1: but the police continue to focus on Julius. And something
Speaker 1: that really struck me when reading about this case is that,
Speaker 1: according to the non incentivized witnesses who knew Chris Jordan
Speaker 1: and jail prison or both, as well as to statements
Speaker 1: that Jordan himself later made to the police, Chris Jordan's
Speaker 1: on the night after the shooting, but before he was
Speaker 1: arrested and gave his initial statement, slept at the Joneses home.
Speaker 1: Chris slept to the Jones's home, which is where he
Speaker 1: said he stashed a murder weapon. So on its face,
Speaker 1: the gun being found at the Joneses looks damning for
Speaker 1: Julius at that time, but now in hindsight, it just
Speaker 1: further points in that the action of Chris Jordan's culpability. Well,
Speaker 1: we know that when Chris was interviewed by the police,
Speaker 1: he was asked, so you hid the murder weapon, and
Speaker 1: he responded yeah. Chris also told one of the men
Speaker 1: that he spoke to while in custody in the county
Speaker 1: jail that he wrapped the gun used to commit the
Speaker 1: murder and hid it in Julius's parents house. We understand
Speaker 1: that Chris was sitting in a police car outside of
Speaker 1: Julius's house after the police stormed the home and then
Speaker 1: went looking for the gun and immediately went to where
Speaker 1: we think Chris told them the gun would be located.
Speaker 1: We also know that there were other people involved, namely
Speaker 1: Kermit Lottie and Liddell King, that had a lot to
Speaker 1: gain by pointing in Julius's direction away from themselves. Can
Speaker 1: you tell us about Kermit and Ladell. Kermit Lottie was
Speaker 1: a man who ran a chop shop on the south
Speaker 1: side of Oklahoma City, and it was a well known
Speaker 1: establishment in the trade of stealing cars. Liddel King was
Speaker 1: a close confidante of Kermits and was known for his
Speaker 1: involvement in that trade. Adel King was also a confidential
Speaker 1: informant and in exchange for providing information to the police,
Speaker 1: he would be allowed to carry on with some of
Speaker 1: his illegal activities. At the time of Julius's trial, liddel
Speaker 1: King was facing bogus check charges and as a habitual offender,
Speaker 1: he was looking to twenty years, and in exchange for
Speaker 1: his testimony, he got ten years probation. Liddell was one
Speaker 1: of the guys that pointed the finger at Julius. So
Speaker 1: this paints a pretty strong picture of a sort of
Speaker 1: a unit. Right. You had Chris Jordan's who was a
Speaker 1: troubled kid. You had these two other known criminals, particularly
Speaker 1: ensconced in the stolen car business, and then you have
Speaker 1: a car that gets stolen in a violent brobberty tragic death.
Speaker 1: But we know a number of things that would make
Speaker 1: anyone go wait. I mean, for instance, we know that
Speaker 1: the number of shellwcasing stounded the scene was something that
Speaker 1: was known and volunteered by Chris and his interrogation before
Speaker 1: the police even asked or suggested it. We know that
Speaker 1: the witnesses were incentivized. We know that the description matches
Speaker 1: someone very much like Chris Jordan's who doesn't look like
Speaker 1: Julius Megan Toby. Mr Howell's sister was in the car
Speaker 1: with him when he pulled into the driveway, and she
Speaker 1: testified that she saw the person who shot her brother,
Speaker 1: and she described him African American, wearing a red bandana
Speaker 1: across his face, wearing a black stocking cap, and half
Speaker 1: an inch of hair hanging out from under the cap.
Speaker 1: What's critical about that is Julius wore his hair close crop,
Speaker 1: very short. Chris Jordan's, on the other hand, wore his
Speaker 1: hair in braids. And how do we know that Julius's
Speaker 1: hair was was short. Ten days prior to Mr Howell's murder,
Speaker 1: Julius got picked up on a traffic stop and had
Speaker 1: a mug shot taken. So there's an official government photo
Speaker 1: of Julius with short hair, and that photograph was never
Speaker 1: shown to the jury at trial. We also know that
Speaker 1: Julius was at home with his family at the time
Speaker 1: Mr Howell was shot and killed, and later that evening,
Speaker 1: Chris and Julius were supposed to draw I've down to Norman, Oklahoma,
Speaker 1: which is about twenty minutes south of Oklahoma City. Julius
Speaker 1: was at home getting a little agitated because Chris said
Speaker 1: he would be there early in the evening and Kristen
Speaker 1: and show up until close to midnight. We also have
Speaker 1: with us julius sister Antoinette, and his mother Madeleine. Now Here,
Speaker 1: you have a son who is excelling in so many ways,
Speaker 1: co captain of three different sports teams in high school,
Speaker 1: academic scholarship at Oklahoma University, great looking young man with
Speaker 1: his whole life laid out in front of him, and
Speaker 1: then everything takes a terrible, terrible turn. It's been a
Speaker 1: twenty plus year shock and I really can't often find
Speaker 1: the worst explain what it's been like. We just got blindsided.
Speaker 1: It sure seems like he went from the American dream
Speaker 1: to the American nightmare. And let's go to that faithful night, July.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us what was happening that night and
Speaker 1: why and how you know that Julius could not possibly
Speaker 1: have been there? Uh, that was kind of a busy
Speaker 1: day for us. I was trying to do Antunette's hair,
Speaker 1: I was fixing, uh spaghetti, But Julius was there all
Speaker 1: day long. They played monopoly. There were a few of
Speaker 1: us for a monopoly. Julius was there for a monopoly
Speaker 1: and from my oldest brother, Antonio, and another young man
Speaker 1: that was over there. They got mad at me because
Speaker 1: I gave Jesus all my money and property. I had
Speaker 1: to do that because I had to get my her done.
Speaker 1: So it's specific things like that, Like I know that
Speaker 1: it was around Jesus birthday. Jesus friend had a big
Speaker 1: chocolate chip cookie that she gave to him for his birthday.
Speaker 1: Tony camp going in and out of the refrigerator to
Speaker 1: take pieces of the cookie. And later on that day,
Speaker 1: my brother Antonio had to go to work. My mother
Speaker 1: went to go take him to work. Julius looks an
Speaker 1: refrigerator and he's like, oh my goodness. He was like,
Speaker 1: who ate my cooking? And I kid you not. He
Speaker 1: waited at the back door in the kitchen, pacing back
Speaker 1: and forth, waiting for mom to come home. So you
Speaker 1: could tell that somebody ate his cookie. So I kind
Speaker 1: of was like, well, you know, I was like to
Speaker 1: cook and so I'll never forget that day. So it
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like someone who just murdered somebody would be
Speaker 1: particularly concerned over how much of a cookie was left
Speaker 1: in the refrigerator or not. Um. I mean, that's just
Speaker 1: one of many many things. You know, So July he's
Speaker 1: home with you. It sounds like sort of a typical
Speaker 1: family night. But then things changed dramatically in the next
Speaker 1: thirty six hours, right the twenty nine, Chris is at
Speaker 1: your home, right, he spent the night that night, which
Speaker 1: is when he had the opportunity to plant the gun.
Speaker 1: Do you recall Chris being at your house that night? Thursday?
Speaker 1: It was trash day and Jews usually take some trash
Speaker 1: outain sometimes we sit and talk on the walk away.
Speaker 1: But Chris was kind of like a shadow was there.
Speaker 1: And when that were you there that night? Do you
Speaker 1: remember if Chris was at the house. I know Chris
Speaker 1: was there because I heard him come upstairs and go
Speaker 1: into the room that was Julius. The very next day,
Speaker 1: the police would surround the Jones house. Julia's family was
Speaker 1: perp walked out of their own home, and Chris Jordan's
Speaker 1: would be in a police car out front to tell
Speaker 1: them exactly where the murder weapon was hidden. Julius was
Speaker 1: appointed a good attorney, Mr Barry Albert, who was known
Speaker 1: for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style. But
Speaker 1: Mr Albert he died shortly before the trial leaving his
Speaker 1: new public defenders woefully unprepared, so much so that they
Speaker 1: didn't put on any defense whatsoever. When it came time
Speaker 1: for Julius to present his case, the warriors simply stood
Speaker 1: up and said the defense rapped. The lawyers did not
Speaker 1: put on testimony from the family who would have presented
Speaker 1: an alibi. The lawyers did not investigate and present evidence
Speaker 1: from two people who were in jail, who didn't know
Speaker 1: each other and independently came forward and said that Chris
Speaker 1: Jordan's told them that he said Julius up. He told
Speaker 1: one of the men that he planted the weapon in
Speaker 1: Julius's house, and he told both of the men that
Speaker 1: he would be getting out of prison after serving a
Speaker 1: fifteen year sentence in exchange for his testimony against Julius.
Speaker 1: The inconsistent statements that Chris made to the police during
Speaker 1: his interrogation were never explored by the defense when they
Speaker 1: had an opportunity to cross examine Chris. It's an inexplicable lapse.
Speaker 1: In fact, it's totally understandable. Why did your would have
Speaker 1: voted to convict. They didn't have any information to work
Speaker 1: with except what the state was saying. What was it like, uh,
Speaker 1: seeing your your baby going through this trial. Well, at
Speaker 1: the beginning, I was very confident because the attorney that
Speaker 1: we had, Mr Abbot, he was very thorough and he
Speaker 1: talked to us and he said, I just need to
Speaker 1: get Chris on the stand. Mr Abbot had a plan
Speaker 1: before he passed away. The opponent attonis they wanted more time,
Speaker 1: and then after he passed away, then they wanted to
Speaker 1: immediately started with trial and everything. And we were there
Speaker 1: every day. But one of the excuses after Mr Abbott
Speaker 1: had passed, they said the reason they didn't call us
Speaker 1: understand it after they had sentenced Julius because they didn't
Speaker 1: know we were there. It was just a mockery. I
Speaker 1: was devastated. I was devastated when I heard the word
Speaker 1: we rest. I think I was a little older than thirteen.
Speaker 1: I didn't understand how you couldn't put people understand to
Speaker 1: help my brother's defense. There was no defense there. And then,
Speaker 1: I mean, it just that pieces me out. It infuriates
Speaker 1: me to hear when cases when there's ineffective counsel, and
Speaker 1: it just makes me so mad, especially if it's an
Speaker 1: appointed attorney, that you think that if you don't have
Speaker 1: the money to afford an attorney, and so you're getting
Speaker 1: a pointed one that they're going to be ineffective and
Speaker 1: not help but actually hurt your case so much. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know how I could live with myself if
Speaker 1: I was an attorney like that. But I think, especially
Speaker 1: with julius case, he just didn't get a fair trial.
Speaker 1: Bottom line, as we've heard at Julius's trial, the defense
Speaker 1: didn't even give the jury much information to work with.
Speaker 1: But believe it or not, it gets even worse. During
Speaker 1: the trial in the jury room, one of the jurors
Speaker 1: said out loud, why are we wasting our time here?
Speaker 1: We ought to just take that end out back and
Speaker 1: bury him outside the jail, and one of the jurors
Speaker 1: approached a bailiff told him what she heard and asked
Speaker 1: to talk to the judge on the record. The judge
Speaker 1: sort of dismissed it as well. He could have been
Speaker 1: talking about Osama bin Laden. We don't know who the
Speaker 1: juror was talking about. Take the N word out of
Speaker 1: the equation. You still have a juror who made up
Speaker 1: his mind and was going to convict Julius and sentence
Speaker 1: him to death. Throw the N word in there, and
Speaker 1: the racism is just oozing from this case. We also
Speaker 1: know that between and two thousand and twelve, there was
Speaker 1: a study conducted in Oklahoma on race and the death penalty.
Speaker 1: The authors concluded that an African American male who is
Speaker 1: convicted of killing a white male is three times more
Speaker 1: likely to get the death penalty in Oklahoma. So at trial,
Speaker 1: yet racism incentivized lying witnesses and no defense whatsoever. So Dale,
Speaker 1: what you took on this case, You guys had your
Speaker 1: work cut out for you, to say the least, But
Speaker 1: there was a new law in place in Oklahoma that
Speaker 1: allowed you to do DNA testing and post conviction, so
Speaker 1: you tested the red bandanna right it was sitting in
Speaker 1: in evidence for almost twenty years. Dr Shapira, he used
Speaker 1: to be with the Department of Forensic Biology at the
Speaker 1: Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed the d
Speaker 1: N A report that was produced by Bodhi Sellmark and
Speaker 1: came to some conclusions. So one of the things that
Speaker 1: Megan Toby, the victim's sister, testified to was that the
Speaker 1: shooter yelled something at her is she was running away,
Speaker 1: and we identified a stain on the bandanna, and we
Speaker 1: wanted to check if that stain was saliva, and it
Speaker 1: came back negative as to saliva. So we don't even
Speaker 1: know if that bandanna was the same bandanna that the
Speaker 1: assailant war because there's not the saliva stain on it
Speaker 1: that should be there. Because the assailant yelled, don't forget,
Speaker 1: this was July in Oklahoma coma right, So you do
Speaker 1: have to suspend a lot of this belief to come
Speaker 1: up with the conclusion that someone Julius or anyone is
Speaker 1: going to be in an extremely high pressure situation on
Speaker 1: a very hot day and not sweat or breathe into
Speaker 1: the bandanna that they're supposedly wearing on their face. We
Speaker 1: don't know. We'll never know whether the gun was wrapped
Speaker 1: in the bandanna, or whether the gun was taken and
Speaker 1: placed in the bandanna by the authorities when they were
Speaker 1: taking it out. One would hope they would put it
Speaker 1: in an evidence bag instead, But the state made a
Speaker 1: big deal about the fact that there were several different
Speaker 1: people's DNA on this bandanna, and that one of the
Speaker 1: people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius. Can you
Speaker 1: elaborate on what that really means because some people would
Speaker 1: look at that and go, oh, wait a minute, Then
Speaker 1: you know, I guess I got the right guy after all. Right,
Speaker 1: case closed. But the testing indicates that the d NA
Speaker 1: was degraded and was defined as trace d NA, which
Speaker 1: suggests that the d NA could have been transferred to
Speaker 1: the item. So the bandanna is found in Julius's house,
Speaker 1: it's handled by the police, it's in his bedroom. It's
Speaker 1: very possible that any d n A on there that
Speaker 1: could be consistent with Julius's could come about as a
Speaker 1: result of the transfer of the d n A. So
Speaker 1: here's what we're faced with. It seems to me and
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong on any of these fronts.
Speaker 1: Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His hair was short
Speaker 1: and could never have stuck out from a stocking cap,
Speaker 1: but Chris Jordan's absolutely could have. Chris Jordan's gave a
Speaker 1: confession that was riddled with inconsistencies and false as he
Speaker 1: changed his story numerous times. Chris also admitted to planting
Speaker 1: the gun exactly where the police founded in Julius's house
Speaker 1: on more than one occasion. There's no salivary DNA on
Speaker 1: the bandanna and evidence, and it doesn't seem to be
Speaker 1: the one that was worn across the shooters or anyone's
Speaker 1: face anyway. And I'm leaving out other exculpatory stuff. Forget
Speaker 1: to incompetent defense, forget the racial bias, forget the jury,
Speaker 1: forget everything. Those facts alone would seem to be enough
Speaker 1: to unravel this. And then you add to it that
Speaker 1: the only thing connecting to it are the words of
Speaker 1: two highly incentivized witnesses, both of whom happened to be
Speaker 1: career criminals, who were maybe an offer they could almost
Speaker 1: con't refused. I mean they were given it, an offer
Speaker 1: that they would be able to avoid lengthy prison sentences
Speaker 1: of their own in exchange for their testimony against Julius.
Speaker 1: Does that pretty much sum it up? That's it? And
Speaker 1: one would think that, you know, why is Julius even
Speaker 1: in prison, let alone on death row? But that's not
Speaker 1: how it turned out. This leads to my next question, Kim,
Speaker 1: his only contact to the outside world is through letters.
Speaker 1: Have you gotten letters directly from him or have you
Speaker 1: corresponded with him in any way? I have, yes, you know,
Speaker 1: just hearing what he has to say, And I mean,
Speaker 1: what I can't understand, but I'm so grateful for is
Speaker 1: someone in Julius's situation who could just be so angry
Speaker 1: at the world, and I don't I don't know how
Speaker 1: I would act if I was in his situation. But
Speaker 1: to see the grace that he has and to see
Speaker 1: how he's fighting through this and won't give up, it
Speaker 1: inspires me. So I want to fight like I. We
Speaker 1: need him to get out. I mean, just to even
Speaker 1: know that because he was an athlete, to see a
Speaker 1: lot of athletes support him and write letters on his
Speaker 1: behalf now to send to the governor has been so
Speaker 1: amazing to see. You know, when he was playing ball,
Speaker 1: Blake Griffin's dad was his coach, and it's completely in
Speaker 1: support of Julius and Blake Griffin wrote an amazing, heartfelt
Speaker 1: letter for the governor to see in support of Julius's release.
Speaker 1: Russell Westbrook. There's been some amazing people that really want
Speaker 1: to see him released as well, people that grew up there,
Speaker 1: people that played their Carmelo Anthony who played in Oklahoma
Speaker 1: for a little while. His wife is my best friend.
Speaker 1: You know. I sent him all the facts and he
Speaker 1: wrote a letter as well. It's amazing to see the
Speaker 1: support that has come together. And I hope that everyone
Speaker 1: really pays attention before it's too late, because we will
Speaker 1: not go out easy on this one. And we know
Speaker 1: that the governor of Oklahoma is a guy who cares
Speaker 1: about criminal justice reform. He's done some positive things for sure.
Speaker 1: It would be hard to imagine that he and the
Speaker 1: members of the Parole Board wouldn't be moved to take
Speaker 1: action here. Between the outcry and the public, the support
Speaker 1: of prominent people, faith leaders and business leaders, so many
Speaker 1: different people, and the facts of the case cry out
Speaker 1: for justice. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, everyone always
Speaker 1: asked me like, well, what can we do? And I
Speaker 1: think the most important thing to do is call the
Speaker 1: Governor's office and elected officials that can really make a
Speaker 1: difference and just be really loud. And you should go
Speaker 1: to Justice for Julius Jones dot com first of all,
Speaker 1: look into his case. Everything is on this website, from
Speaker 1: the documentary The Last Offense with Viola Davis to where
Speaker 1: you can sign the petition in favor of Julius, and
Speaker 1: you can also subscribe to stay up to date on
Speaker 1: what's going on. And it even gives you a link
Speaker 1: to email the Parole Board. I do believe that the
Speaker 1: Parole Board is like in favor of reform. I believe
Speaker 1: everyone is very compassionate from what I've heard. So I
Speaker 1: just urged everyone please sign the petition for Julius Jones
Speaker 1: if you're moved by his story. I've done it. I
Speaker 1: believe in him so much. I believe in his innocence.
Speaker 1: Justice for Julius Jones dot Com. When we initially released
Speaker 1: this episode, as you heard mentioned several times throughout, there
Speaker 1: were two witnesses who had been in jail with Chris
Speaker 1: Jordan's and they are Manuel Little John and Christopher Barry.
Speaker 1: Now since then there's been a third man. Now, mind you,
Speaker 1: only the state can incentivize a witness. Everybody knows this right.
Speaker 1: It's totally illegal for anyone but the state to bribe
Speaker 1: a witness. So these men have nothing to gain by
Speaker 1: coming forward. In fact, they have a lot to lose.
Speaker 1: Here's what Manuel Little John said in his two thousand
Speaker 1: and four sworn affid David Quote. Jordan's stated that he
Speaker 1: felt guilty because he was going to implicate his co defendant,
Speaker 1: Julius Jones in a murder case to avoid getting the
Speaker 1: death penalty for himself. That's end quote. And Little John's
Speaker 1: affid David, after admitting to hiding the gun in the
Speaker 1: jones Is home, Jordan's stated to Little John, quote Julius
Speaker 1: didn't do it, and quote Julius wasn't there. Then Christopher
Speaker 1: Barry in his two thousand and four sworn affid David,
Speaker 1: referring to what Chris Jordan had told him, quote he
Speaker 1: was the actual person who shot the victim in his case.
Speaker 1: Mr Jordan's also said, I'm still quoting that because he
Speaker 1: was the first person to talk to police, he was
Speaker 1: getting a deal and would not get the death penalty.
Speaker 1: End quote. And finally, in March one, we have a
Speaker 1: sworn affidavit from Roderick Wesley and he says the following
Speaker 1: on video about his interaction with Chris Jordan's. Me and
Speaker 1: uh Jo and had worked together. One day. We're sitting
Speaker 1: there and I'm telling him about my situation. He pretty
Speaker 1: much told me about his. I guess you could say
Speaker 1: he was being sort of remorseful, but it was one
Speaker 1: of the cases where I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: jump out there and just you know, throw myself to
Speaker 1: the wolves like that, and so when he ended up
Speaker 1: breaking it down, it was pretty much like, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: I committed the end that somebody else is getting accused
Speaker 1: though you know he admitted that he won, you know,
Speaker 1: did killer and it wasn't this guy. You know, it
Speaker 1: was a big decision, is do I jump out there? What?
Speaker 1: But I looked at it is if it was my situation,
Speaker 1: I was one with somebody who has information to go
Speaker 1: ahead and do it. Because this is a man life online.
Speaker 1: I mean, what can I possibly add to further prove
Speaker 1: what we've been all saying all along, Julius Jones is
Speaker 1: an innocent man on death row and Wahoma. Since almost
Speaker 1: seven million people have signed a petition on Julius behalf bankers,
Speaker 1: boxes of signatures were delivered to the Oklahoma Bord of
Speaker 1: Partons in Parole begging for justice in this case. And
Speaker 1: now since this latest statement from Roderick Wesley, Julius has
Speaker 1: been granted a hearing. It's a Stage two commutation hearing
Speaker 1: in front of the Oklahoma Board of Partons in Parole
Speaker 1: that's happening on September one. But that doesn't mean it's
Speaker 1: time to rest or relax. Now is the time to
Speaker 1: ramp up the pressure. If you'd like to add your
Speaker 1: name to that petition, it's going to be linked in
Speaker 1: the bio. Please help us keep the pressure on. And
Speaker 1: with that we're going to go to closing arguments, where,
Speaker 1: of course, first of all, I think all of you,
Speaker 1: and now we're going to hear from Dale, Antoinette, and
Speaker 1: of course Julius's mother, Madeleine. But let's kick it off
Speaker 1: with you first. Kim Oh, thank you for having me
Speaker 1: on here, and thank you for everything that you do
Speaker 1: and for showing me the way. Seriously, I look up
Speaker 1: to you so much, and I'm so grateful to you
Speaker 1: for sharing so many cases with me and that we're
Speaker 1: able to hopefully open up people's minds and hearts that
Speaker 1: might have been a little bit closed off when it
Speaker 1: comes to reform, or might not understood how they could help,
Speaker 1: and then we're giving them a platform where they can
Speaker 1: help out and be a part of the conversation and
Speaker 1: help fight for people that really really deserve it. So
Speaker 1: thank you Dale, You've done a fantastic job and I
Speaker 1: appreciate you making the time. I know it's going to
Speaker 1: make a difference. Well, thank you, Jason. We have a
Speaker 1: commutation application pending before the Oklahoma Pardon in Parole Board.
Speaker 1: Julius is thankful for all the support, the prayers, the
Speaker 1: letters that he has received that is giving him strength.
Speaker 1: This case got the attention it deserved when Viola Davis
Speaker 1: in Julius Tennan produced the last defense that put light
Speaker 1: on this injustice and wrongful conviction. What's troubling to me,
Speaker 1: and we should all be concerned about this, is that
Speaker 1: without the last defense, no one would be interested in
Speaker 1: this case. Julius would have been just another African American
Speaker 1: man in prison saying he was innocent, one of the
Speaker 1: four percent, and no one would care. There are thousands
Speaker 1: of julius is behind bars today and people should care.
Speaker 1: And we know you care, Jason, and we appreciate that
Speaker 1: this struggle isn't over. Thank you very much. Why don't
Speaker 1: we save mom for last, because you know she's mom,
Speaker 1: So Antoinette over to you, so first, I would say, then,
Speaker 1: my brother, Julius, there is Jones. He did not kill
Speaker 1: Paul Hall. My brother is a human being. He is
Speaker 1: not a number. When we consider people human beings and
Speaker 1: not just numbers, and we really take into account all
Speaker 1: the facts. I'm just asking them to correct this wrong.
Speaker 1: I'm asking you to look at all of the key
Speaker 1: points in this case. I'm asking you to understand that
Speaker 1: my brother never got a fair defense. He never got
Speaker 1: a proper defense, he never got a juror of his peers,
Speaker 1: he never got a chance to voice what happened to
Speaker 1: him from his side. And I'm just asking you, as
Speaker 1: a human being, to understand and take my brother in
Speaker 1: consideration as a human being and not a number. He
Speaker 1: is not a person that would take a life. He
Speaker 1: is a person that will protect the life. He is
Speaker 1: a person that cares about everybody's well being. To this day,
Speaker 1: he cares. He cares more about how everybody else is
Speaker 1: doing then how he's doing inside. That's who my brother is.
Speaker 1: He's a person that cares. He's a loyal person. He
Speaker 1: is a person that loves life. I never gave up
Speaker 1: and I'm still not gonna give up. We shall not
Speaker 1: give up. We shall not rest. Even though the defense
Speaker 1: rest for him, we shall not rest. Thank you, thank you,
Speaker 1: And now for the final words, Madeline. First of all,
Speaker 1: Julius is a good person. He's very kind, he's loving, compassion,
Speaker 1: and a lot of times he will hurt himself to
Speaker 1: keep from hurting someone else, and that's the reason he's
Speaker 1: in predicament he's in now, and I just want to
Speaker 1: say to the parlor board that one size does not
Speaker 1: fit all, and that I would like for him to
Speaker 1: take careful consideration concerning Julius and to look at what
Speaker 1: he will be able to contribute to society if they
Speaker 1: spare his life. We just need to try to get
Speaker 1: things right because when justice is covered up, it stays
Speaker 1: covered for so long, but it'll either burned through or
Speaker 1: it will grow. And right now, I feel like that
Speaker 1: justice is growing because uh, it wants to be heard
Speaker 1: and it wants to be fulfilled. What it's really meant
Speaker 1: to be justice for all, not just for some of us.
Speaker 1: And you know, freedom is worth more than money. My
Speaker 1: biggest joy is to help my son home and to
Speaker 1: be about the things that he's dream and long to
Speaker 1: want to do. And I thank God for this opportunity
Speaker 1: today to be able to express so many things that
Speaker 1: I've helped in today. I really thank God for you, Jason.
Speaker 1: I thank God for people like you. Thank you for
Speaker 1: listening to wrongful Conviction. I'd like to thank our production team,
Speaker 1: Connor Hall Justin Golden, Jeff Clyburne, and Kevin Wardis, with
Speaker 1: research by Lila Robinson. The music in this production was
Speaker 1: supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on
Speaker 1: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction,
Speaker 1: as well as at Lava for Good. On all three platforms,
Speaker 1: You can also follow me on both TikTok and Instagram
Speaker 1: at It's Jason flam Ralevul Conviction is the production of
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number
Speaker 1: one