1 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Since our initial and second release of this episode, there 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: have been even more developments in the case of Julius Jones. 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: While the litigation continues around the issue of whether or 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: not the use of substitute drugs and leafal injections violates 5 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: the Eighth Amendment ban on Cruel and Unusual punishment, Oklahoma 6 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: stumbled blindly forward, causing yet another botched execution, this time 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: for John Marion Grant on November one, twenty twenty one. 8 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: Despite this tragic event and a recommendation from the Oklahoma 9 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: Board of Pardons and Paroles to commute Julius Jones's sentence, 10 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: his execution date continued to loom on the eighteenth, but 11 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: through the tireless advocacy of Julius's family, Kim Kardashian, the 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: Reverend C. C. Jones, Davis, Attorney Dale Bash, Scott Budnick, myself, 13 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: of course, had so many others, along with countless concerned 14 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: citizens like you. Governor Stitt finally granted Julius's clemency just 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: hours before he was set to be killed. Now, you 16 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: might recognize that the tone of my voice still sounds heavy, 17 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: and that's because although Julius will be spared, the fate 18 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: of another grizzly and bungled execution in Oklahoma, the conditions 19 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: of his clemency are hardly caused for celebration. The governor 20 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: commuted his sentence to life without the possibility of parole, 21 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: along with the gratuitously cruel stipulation that Julius shall never 22 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: be eligible to apply for or be considered for a commutation, pardon, 23 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: or parole. 24 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 2: For the rest of his life. 25 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: However, Julius's attorney, Dale Bash, assures me that the fight 26 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: for this innocent man's freedom is far from over. On 27 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine, Paul Howell was shot 28 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: twice at a driveway to Edmund, Oklahoma, in a robbery 29 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: for his GMC suburban. According to his sister, the shooter 30 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: was an African American male wearing a red bandanna across 31 00:01:57,800 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: his face and a stocking cap with up to an 32 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: Jim Harris sticking out from the bottom. According to numerous 33 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: non incentivized sworn affidavids, the co defendant in this case, 34 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: Chris Jordan, has since bragged about being the shooter and 35 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: framing his former friend Julius Jones. On the night of 36 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: the shooting, Julius was at home with his family the 37 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: evening following the murder. Chris Jordan spent the night at 38 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: the Joneses, which was when he said he hit the 39 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: gun in a second story call space. Confidential informants in 40 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: the stolen car trade, including a longtime associated Chris Jordan 41 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 1: ladel King, deflective investigators toward Chris Jordan and Julius. Chris 42 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: eventually gave seven statements riddled with inconsistencies, blaming Julius Jones 43 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: for the murder. On July thirtieth, police searched at Jones's 44 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: home and found the gun exactly what Chris Jordan is 45 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: believed to have hidden it. With nothing presented to defend 46 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: against the planted evidence and the incentivized testimony of ladel 47 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,559 Speaker 1: King and Chris Jordan, Julius was sent to Oklahoma's death Row. 48 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: On this episode, we team up with one of Julius's 49 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: fierce's advocates, Kim Kardashian, as we speak with his attorney, 50 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: Dale Bash and his mother and sister, Madeline and Antoinette Jones. 51 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flopp Today, we're here 52 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: to talk about Julius Jones, who has been on death 53 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: row in Oklahoma for over twenty years for a crime 54 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: he didn't commit. And I'd like to welcome a very 55 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: special guest. You'll recognize her name, and you'll recognize her 56 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: from having been on this podcast before, Kim Kardashian West. 57 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 58 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 3: Hi, thank you for having me again. 59 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: I can't overstate the importance of you being here today 60 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: with us, Kim, because if we don't take every possible 61 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: action that we can, and I mean the audience too, 62 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: Julius will be executed in Oklahoma as early as this 63 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: fall for a crime we know he didn't commit. Can 64 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: you tell us when you first heard about this case. 65 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I first started to receive letters. They were from 66 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 3: a woman named Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her, 67 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 3: and she was kind of reiterating the same information about 68 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 3: Julius and mentioned the documentary with Viola Davis. So I thought, 69 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 3: I have to look into this. And I say this 70 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,119 Speaker 3: all the time because we have such an amazing group 71 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 3: of people between you and Scott Budnick, my attorneys and everyone. 72 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 3: When all of the big players really feel the same 73 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 3: way about a case, I know that we have to 74 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 3: be loud, and I feel in my soul that we 75 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 3: are early enough because execution date for Julius hasn't been 76 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 3: set yet that I feel like now is the time 77 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 3: where we all just have to come together and really 78 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 3: make a difference in his life. 79 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: What about this particular case, about his case makes you 80 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: so passionate and what sticks out to you the most 81 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 1: about Julius's case? 82 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 3: There's a few things. Being a young honor roll student athlete, 83 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 3: you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around 84 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 3: always says what an amazing person he is, that grew 85 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 3: up with him, his coaches, and then to see getting 86 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 3: caught up with the wrong group of people and getting 87 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 3: set up the way he was just really rubbed me 88 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 3: the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life, 89 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 3: was just taken away. It always goes back to me 90 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 3: thinking about what if that was my son? What would 91 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 3: I do if my son got set up like this? 92 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 3: So we got to fight for this guy, We got 93 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 3: to help him get his life back. 94 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: The next voice you hear is going to be the 95 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: voice of Dale Bash, an assistant federal public defender who 96 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: is definitely doing his part to help to unravel this nightmare? 97 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: When did you get involved with it? 98 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 4: In twenty and sixteen, our office was appointed to represent 99 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 4: Julius in clemency proceedings. 100 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: And this really is a terrible crime. I mean, you 101 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: have Paul Howell, a forty five year old church deacon 102 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: and business owner, family guy, returning to his parents' home 103 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,679 Speaker 1: in the Oklahoma City suburb of Edmund from a school 104 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: supply shopping trip with his seven and nine year old 105 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: daughters and his sister, Megan Toby in the car. Now, 106 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 1: as he was getting out of the nineteen ninety seven 107 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: GMC suburban, a black man and a stocking cap with 108 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: about an inch of hair sticking out from the bottom 109 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: and a red bandana tied around his face stepped up 110 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: to Paul and demanded the suburban and fired his gun twice, 111 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: mortally wounding Paul. As his daughters and sister ran screaming 112 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: to the house for cover, the gunman sped away in 113 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: the suburban. And from what we know now, and remember 114 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: this is an addition to what was known when we 115 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: first released this episode, according to three men and counting, 116 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: not just the original two. These are three men who 117 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: all knew Chris Jordan in prison and or in jail. 118 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: And none of these men have been incentivized in any way, okay, 119 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: And they've all sworn to have been told by Chris 120 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: Jordan directly that Chris did this shooting and that his 121 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,119 Speaker 1: former friend Julius Jones was not involved. I mean, that's 122 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: powerful stuff right there. 123 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: Okay. 124 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: But at the time of this investigation, the cops went 125 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: looking for the usual suspects in the stolen car trade. 126 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: First they went to a guy named Kermit Lottie. He 127 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: led them to laddel King, who was an associate of 128 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: Chris Jordan, who then had them to Jordan and eventually 129 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: Julius Jones. But the cops caught Chris Jordan first, Right, 130 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: So can you walk us through some of the things 131 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: that Chris Jordan told them? 132 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 4: Sure. On July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine, according to 133 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 4: Chris Jordan, who is a co defendant in this case, 134 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 4: he and Julius were driving around looking for a suburban 135 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 4: to jack. They spotted a car, followed it into a neighborhood, 136 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 4: and according to Chris Jordan, Julius jumped out of the 137 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 4: car when the car pulled into the driveway and shot 138 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 4: Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken into custody, that's 139 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 4: what he told the police, and they immediately focused on Julius. 140 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 4: Tunnel vision set in. But what we now know is 141 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 4: Chris made seven different statements to the police and those 142 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 4: statements were in constant and at one point the police say, 143 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 4: what you're telling us, it's not adding up. We don't 144 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 4: have this backwards, do we. So the police knew that 145 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 4: there were problems with what Chris was telling them, but 146 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 4: the police continued to focus on Julius. 147 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: And something that really struck me when reading about this 148 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 1: case is that, according to the non incentivized witnesses who 149 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: knew Chris Jordan in jail, prison, or both, as well 150 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: as to statements that Jordan himself later made to the police, 151 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: Chris Jordan on the night after the shooting, but before 152 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: he was arrested and gave his initial statement, slept at 153 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: the Joneses home. Chris left the Jones' home, which is 154 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 1: where he said he stashed the murder weapon. So on 155 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: its face, the gun being found at the Joneses looks 156 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: damning for Julius at that time, but now in hindsight, 157 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: it just further points in that the direction of Chris 158 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: Jordan's culpability. 159 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 4: Well, we know that when Chris was interviewed by the police, 160 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 4: he was asked, so you hid the murder weapon, and 161 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 4: he responded yeah. Chris also told one of the men 162 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 4: that he spoke to while in custody in the county 163 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 4: jail that he wrapped the gun used to commit the 164 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 4: murder and hid it in Julius's parent's house. We understand 165 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 4: that Chris was sitting in a police car outside of 166 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 4: Julius's house after the police stormed the home and then 167 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 4: went looking for the gun and immediately went to where 168 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,479 Speaker 4: we think Chris told them the gun would be located. 169 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 4: We also know that there were other people involved, namely 170 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 4: Kermit Lottie and Ladel King, that had a lot to 171 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 4: gain by pointing in Julius's direction away from themselves. 172 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: Can you tell us about Kermit and Lyddell. 173 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 4: Kermit Lottie was a man who ran a chop shop 174 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 4: on the south side of Oklahoma City, and it was 175 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 4: a well known establishment in the trade of stealing cars. 176 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 4: Laddel King was a close confidante of Kermit's and was 177 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 4: known for his involvement in that trade. Laddel King was 178 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 4: also a confidential informant, and in exchange for providing information 179 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 4: to the police, he would be allowed to carry on 180 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 4: with some of his illegal activities. At the time of 181 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 4: Julius's trial, laddel King was facing bogus check charges and 182 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 4: as an habitual offender he was looking to twenty years, 183 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 4: and in exchange for his testimony, he got ten years probation. 184 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 4: Liddell was one of the guys that pointed the finger 185 00:11:58,240 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 4: at Julius. 186 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: So this paints a pretty strong picture of a sort 187 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: of a unit. 188 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 3: Right. 189 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: You had Chris Jordan, who was a troubled kid. You 190 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: have these two other known criminals, particularly ensconced in the 191 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: stolen car business, and then you have a car that 192 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: gets stolen in a violent robbery a tragic death. But 193 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: we know a number of things that would make anyone 194 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: go wait. I mean, for instance, we know that the 195 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: number of shellcasings tuned the scene was something that was 196 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: known and volunteered by Chris and his interrogation before the 197 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: police even asked or suggested it. We know that the 198 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: witnesses were incentivized. We know that the description matches someone 199 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,359 Speaker 1: very much like Chris Jordan, who doesn't look like Julius. 200 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 4: Megan Toby, mister Howell's sister, was in the car with 201 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 4: him when he pulled into the driveway, and she testified 202 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 4: that she saw the person who shot her brother, and 203 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 4: she described him as African American, wearing a red bandana 204 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 4: across his face, wearing a black stocking cap, and half 205 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 4: an inch of hair hanging out from under the cap. 206 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 4: What's critical about that is Julius wore his hair close crop, 207 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,199 Speaker 4: very short. Chris Jordan, on the other hand, wore his 208 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 4: hair in braids. And how do we know that Julius's 209 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 4: hair was short. Ten days prior to mister Howell's murder, 210 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 4: Julius got picked up on a traffic stop and had 211 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 4: a mug shot taken. So there's an official government photo 212 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 4: of Julius with short hair, and that photograph was never 213 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 4: shown to the jury at trial. We also know that 214 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 4: Julius was at home with his family at the time 215 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 4: mister Howell was shot and killed, and later that evening, 216 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 4: Chris and Julius were supposed to down to Norman, Oklahoma, 217 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 4: which is about twenty minutes south of Oklahoma City. Julius 218 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 4: was at home getting a little agitated because Chris said 219 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 4: he would be there early in the evening and Kristen 220 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 4: would show up until close to midnight. 221 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: We also have with us Julius's sister Antoinette and his 222 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: mother Madeline. Now Here you have a son who is 223 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: excelling in so many ways, co captain of three different 224 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: sports teams in high school, academic scholarship at Oklahoma University, 225 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: great looking young man with his whole life laid out 226 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: in front of him, and then everything takes a terrible, 227 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: terrible turn. 228 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 5: It's been a twenty plus year shot and I really 229 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 5: can't often find the worst explain what it's been like. 230 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 6: We just got blindsided. 231 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: It sure seems like he went from the American dream 232 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: to the American nightmare. And let's go to that faithful 233 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: night July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine. Can you tell 234 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: us what was happening that night and why and how 235 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: you know that Julius could not possibly have been there. 236 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 5: That was kind of a busy day for us. I 237 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 5: was trying to do Antoinette's hair, was fixing spaghetti, but 238 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 5: Julius was. 239 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 6: There all day long. They played monopoly. 240 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 7: There were a few of us playing Monopoly. 241 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 8: Julius was there playing Monopoly, and my oldest brother, Antonio 242 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 8: and another young man that. 243 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: Was over there. 244 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 8: They got mad at me because I gave Jus all 245 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 8: my money and property. I had to do that because 246 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 8: I had to get my hair done. So it's specific 247 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 8: things like that, like I know that it was around Jesus' birthday. 248 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 8: Jesus friand had a big chocolate chip cookie that she 249 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 8: gave to him for his birthday. Tony kept going in 250 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 8: and out of the refrigerator to take pieces of the cookie. 251 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 8: And later on that day, my brother Antonio had to 252 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 8: go to work. My mother went to go take him 253 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 8: to work. Julius looks in the refrigerator and he's like, 254 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 8: oh my goodness. He was like, who ate my cooking? 255 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 8: And I kid you not. He waited at the back 256 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 8: door in the kitchen, pacing back and forth, waiting for 257 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 8: Mom to come home so he could tell that somebody 258 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 8: ate his cookie. So I kind of was like, well, 259 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 8: you know, I was like, Tony h a cookie, and 260 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 8: so I'll never forget that day. 261 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: So it doesn't seem like someone who just murdered somebody 262 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: would be particularly concerned over how much of a cookie 263 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: was left in the refrigerator or not. I mean, that's 264 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: just one of many, many things, you know. So July 265 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: twenty eighth, he's home with you, sounds like sort of 266 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: a typical family night. But then things changed dramatically in 267 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: the next thirty six hours. Right the twenty ninth, Chris 268 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: is at your home. Right, he spent the night that night, 269 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: which is when he had the opportunity to plant the gun. 270 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: Do you recall Chris being at your house that night? 271 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 5: Thursday was trash day and Jews usually take some my 272 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 5: trash out and sometimes we sit and talk on the walkway, 273 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 5: But Chris was kind of like a shadow was there? 274 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: Answer that, were you there that night? Do you remember 275 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: if Chris was at the house? 276 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 8: I know Chris was there because I heard him come 277 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 8: upstairs and go into the room that was Julius. 278 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: The very next day, the police would surround the Jones's house. 279 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: Julius family was purp walked out of their own home, 280 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 1: and Chris Jordan would be in a police car out 281 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: front to tell them exactly where the murder weapon was hidden. 282 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: Julius was appointed a good attorney, mister Barry Albert, who 283 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: was known for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style, 284 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: But mister Albert he died shortly before the trial, leaving 285 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: his new public defenders woefully unprepared, so much so that 286 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 1: they didn't put on any defense whatsoever. 287 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 4: When it came time for Julius to present his case, 288 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 4: the lawyers simply stood up and said the defense. The 289 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 4: lawyers did not put on testimony from the family who 290 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 4: would have presented an alibi. The lawyers did not investigate 291 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 4: and present evidence from two people who were in jail, 292 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 4: who didn't know each other and independently came forward and 293 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 4: said that Chris Jordan told them that he said Julius up. 294 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,439 Speaker 4: He told one of the men that he planted the 295 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 4: weapon in Julius's house, and he told both of the 296 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 4: men that he would be getting out of prison after 297 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 4: serving a fifteen year sentence in exchange for his testimony 298 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 4: against Julius. The inconsistent statements that Chris made to the 299 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 4: police during his interrogation were never explored by the defense 300 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 4: when they had an opportunity to cross examine Chris. 301 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact, it's totally understandable. Why 302 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: did your would have voted to convict They didn't have 303 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: any information to work with except what the state was saying. 304 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 1: What was it like seeing your baby going through this trial. 305 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 5: Well, at the beginning, I was very confident because the 306 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,959 Speaker 5: attorney that we had, mister Abbot, he was very thorough 307 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 5: and he talked to us and he said, I just 308 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 5: need to get Chris on the stand. Miss Abbot had 309 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 5: a plan before he passed away. The opponent attorneys they 310 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 5: wanted more time, and then after he passed away than 311 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 5: they wanted to immediately start up with trial and everything. 312 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 6: And we were there every day. But one of the 313 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 6: excuses after Miss Abbot had passed, they said the reason 314 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 6: they didn't call us on the standing after they had 315 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 6: sentenced Julius because they didn't know we were there. It was 316 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 6: just a mockery. 317 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 8: I was devastated. I was devastated when I heard the 318 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 8: word we risked. I think I was a little older 319 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 8: than thirteen, and I didn't understand how you couldn't put 320 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 8: people on the stand to help my brothers defense. 321 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 7: There was no defense there. And I mean it just 322 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 7: that pisces me out. 323 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 3: It infuriates me to hear when cases when there's ineffective counsel. 324 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 3: It just makes me so mad. Especially if it's an 325 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 3: appointed attorney, that you think that if you don't have 326 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 3: the money to afford an attorney, and so you're getting 327 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 3: appointed one, that they're going to be ineffective and not 328 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 3: help but actually hurt your case so much. I mean, 329 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 3: I don't know how I could live with myself if 330 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 3: I was an attorney like that. But I think, especially 331 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 3: with Julius's case, he just didn't get a fair trial. 332 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: Bottom line, as we've heard at Julius's trial, the defense 333 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: didn't even give the jury much information to work with. 334 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: But believe it or not, it gets even worse. 335 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 4: During the trial in the jury room, one of the 336 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 4: jurors said out loud, why are we wasting our time here? 337 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 4: We ought to just take that end out back and 338 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 4: bury him outside the jail, and one of the jurors 339 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 4: approached a bailiff told him what she heard and asked 340 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 4: to talk to the judge on the record. The judge 341 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 4: sort of dismissed it as well, he could have been 342 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 4: talking about Osama bin Laden. We don't know who the 343 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 4: juror was talking about. Take the N word out of 344 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 4: the equation. You still have a juror who made up 345 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 4: his mind and was going to convict Julius and sentence 346 00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 4: him to death. Throw the N word in there, and 347 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 4: the racism is just oozing from this case. We also 348 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 4: know that between nineteen ninety five and twoenty twelve, there 349 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 4: was a study conducted in Oklahoma on race and the 350 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 4: death penalty. The authors concluded that an African American male 351 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 4: who is convicted of killing a white male is three 352 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 4: times more likely to get the death penalty in Oklahoma. 353 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: So at trial, yet racism incentivized lying witnesses and no 354 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: defense whatsoever. So Dale, when you took on this case, 355 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,439 Speaker 1: you guys had your work cut out for you, to 356 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: say the least. But there was a new law in 357 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: place in Oklahoma that allowed you to do DNA testing 358 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: in post conviction, So you tested the red bandana right. 359 00:22:54,320 --> 00:23:00,120 Speaker 4: It was sitting in evidence for almost twenty years. Doctor Shapiro, 360 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 4: he used to be with the Department of Forensic Biology 361 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 4: at the Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed 362 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 4: the DNA report that was produced by body Selmark and 363 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 4: came to some conclusions. So one of the things that 364 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 4: Megan Toby, the victim's sister, testified to was that the 365 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 4: shooter yelled something at her is she was running away, 366 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 4: and we identified a stain on the bandana, and we 367 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 4: wanted to check if that stain was saliva, and it 368 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 4: came back negative is to saliva. So we don't even 369 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 4: know if that bandana was the same bandana that the 370 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 4: assailant wore, because there's not the saliva stain on it 371 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 4: that should be there. Because the assailant yelled. 372 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: Don't forget, this was July in Oklahoma, right, So you 373 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: do have to suspend a lot of this belief to 374 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: come up with the conclusion that someone Julius or anyone 375 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: is going to be in an extremely high pressure situation 376 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: on a very hot day and not sweat or breathe 377 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: into the bandana that they're supposedly wearing on their face. 378 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: We don't know. We'll never know whether the gun was 379 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: wrapped in the bandana or whether the gun was taken 380 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: and placed in the bandana by the authorities when they 381 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: were taking it out. One would hope they would put 382 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: it in an evidence bag instead, But the state made 383 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 1: a big deal about the fact that there were several 384 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: different people's DNA on this bandana, and that one of 385 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: the people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius. Can 386 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: you elaborate on what that really means, because some people 387 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute, 388 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 1: Then you know, I guess I got the right guy 389 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: after all. 390 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 4: Right, case closed. But the testing indicates that the DNA 391 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 4: was degraded and was defined as trace DNA, which suggests 392 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 4: that the DNA could have been transferred to the item. 393 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,919 Speaker 4: So the bandana is found in Julius's house, it's handled 394 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 4: by the police, it's in his bedroom. It's very possible 395 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 4: that any DNA on there that could be consistent with 396 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 4: Julius's could come about as a result of the transfer 397 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 4: of the DNA. 398 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: So here's what we're faced with. It seems to me 399 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong on any of these fronts. 400 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 1: Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His hair was short 401 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: and could never have stuck out from a stocking cap, 402 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 1: but Chris Jordan's absolutely could have. Chris Jordan gave a 403 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: confession that was riddled with inconsistencies and false as he 404 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 1: changed his story numerous times. Chris also admitted to planting 405 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: the gun exactly where the police found it in Julius's 406 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: house on more than one occasion. There's no salary DNA 407 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: on the bandana in evidence, and it doesn't seem to 408 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: be the one that was worn across the shooters or 409 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: anyone's face anyway. And I'm leaving out other exculpatory stuff. 410 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: Forget to incompetent defense, forget the racial bias, forget the jury, 411 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: forget everything. Those facts alone would seem to be enough 412 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 1: to unravel this. And then you add to it that 413 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: the only thing connecting him to it are the words 414 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: of two highly incentivized witnesses, both of whom happened to 415 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: be career criminals, who were maybe an offer they could 416 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: almost get refused. I mean, they were given an offer 417 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 1: that they would be able to avoid lengthy prison sentences 418 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 1: of their own in exchange for their testimony against Julius. 419 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: Does that pretty much sum it up? 420 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 4: That's it? And one would think that, you know, why 421 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 4: is Julius even in prison, let alone on death row? 422 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 4: But that's not how it turned out. 423 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: This leads to my next question, Kim, his only contact 424 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: to the outside world is through letters. Have you gotten 425 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: letters directly from him or have you corresponded with him 426 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: in any way? 427 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 3: I have, yes, you know, just hearing what he has 428 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 3: to say, and I mean, what I can't understand, but 429 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 3: I'm so grateful for is someone in Julius's situation who 430 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 3: could just be so angry at the world. And I 431 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 3: don't know how I would act if I was in 432 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 3: his situation, But to see the grace that he has 433 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 3: and to see how he's fighting through this and won't 434 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 3: give up, it inspires me. So I want to fight 435 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 3: like I we need him to get out. I mean, 436 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 3: just to even know that because he was an athlete, 437 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 3: to see a lot of athletes support him and write 438 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 3: letters on his behalf now to send to the governor 439 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 3: has been so amazing to see. You know, when he 440 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 3: was playing ball, Blake Griffin's dad was his coach and 441 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 3: is completely in support of Julius and Blake Griffin wrote 442 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 3: an amazing, heartfelt letter for the governor to see in 443 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 3: support of Julius's release. Russell Westbrook. There's been some amazing 444 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 3: people that really want to see him released as well, 445 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 3: people that grew up there, people that played there. Carmelo Anthony, 446 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 3: who played in Oklahoma for a little while. His wife 447 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 3: is my best friend. 448 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 4: You know. 449 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 3: I sent him all the facts and he wrote a 450 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 3: letter as well. It's amazing to see the support that 451 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 3: has come together. And I hope that everyone really pays 452 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 3: attention before it's too late, because we will not go 453 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 3: out easy on this one. 454 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: And we know that the governor of Oklahoma is a 455 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: guy who cares about criminal justice reform. He's done some 456 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: positive things for sure. It would be hard to imagine 457 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: that he and the members of the Parole Board wouldn't 458 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: be moved to take action here. Between the outcry and 459 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: the public, the support of prominent people, faith leaders, business leaders, 460 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: so many different people, and the facts of the case 461 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: cry out for justice. Yeah. 462 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 3: Absolutely. I mean, you know, everyone always asks me like, well, 463 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 3: what can we do? And I think the most important 464 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 3: thing to do is call the Governor's office and elected 465 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 3: officials that can really make a difference and just be 466 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 3: really loud. And you should go to Justice for Julius 467 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 3: Jones dot com. First of all, look into his case. 468 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 3: Everything is on this website, from the documentary The Last 469 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 3: Offense with Viola Davis to where you can sign the 470 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 3: petition in favor of Julius, and you can also subscribe 471 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 3: to stay up to date on what's going on. And 472 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 3: it even gives you a link to email the Parole Board. 473 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 3: I do believe that the Parole Board is like in 474 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 3: favor reform. I believe everyone is very compassionate from what 475 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 3: I've heard. So I just urge everyone please sign the 476 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 3: petition for Julius Jones if you're moved by his story. 477 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 3: I've done it. I believe in him so much. I 478 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 3: believe in his innocence. Justice for Julius Jones dot Com. 479 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: When we initially released this episode, as you heard mentioned 480 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: several times throughout, there were two witnesses who had been 481 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: in jail with Chris Jordan, and they are Manual Little 482 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: John and Christopher Berry. Now since then there's been a 483 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: third man. Now, mind you, only the state can incentivize 484 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: a witness. Everybody knows this right. It's totally illegal for 485 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: anyone but the state to bribe a witness. So these 486 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: men have nothing to gain by coming forward. In fact, 487 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: they have a lot to lose. Here's what Manuel Little 488 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: John said in his two thousand and four sworn Affidavid Quote. 489 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: Jordan stated that he felt kilty because he was going 490 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: to implicate his co defended Julius Jones in a murder 491 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: case to avoid getting the death penalty for himself. 492 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 2: That's end quote. 493 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: In Little John's Affidavid, after admitting to hiding the gun 494 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: in the Joneses home, Jordan stated to Little John, quote, 495 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: Julius didn't do it. End quote. Julius wasn't there. Then, 496 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: Christopher Barry in his two thousand and four sworn Affidavid, 497 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: referring to what Chris Jordan had told him, quote, he 498 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: was the actual person who shot the victim in his case. 499 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: Mister Jordan also said of still quoting that because he 500 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: was the first person to talk to police, he was 501 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: getting a deal and would not get the death penalty 502 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: end quote. And finally, in March of twenty twenty one, 503 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: we have a sworn affidavit from Roderick Wesley and he 504 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: says the following on video about his interaction with Chris Jordan. 505 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 2: Me and Jordan had worked together. One day. 506 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 9: We're sitting there and I'm telling him about my situation. 507 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 9: He pretty much told me about his. I guess you 508 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 9: say he was being sort of remorseful, but it was 509 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 9: one of the cases where I'm sorry, but I'm not 510 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 9: gonna jump out there and just, you know, throw myself 511 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 9: to the wolves like that. 512 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 2: And so when he ended up breaking it down. 513 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 9: It was pretty much like, you know, yeah, I committed 514 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 9: the aid that somebody else is getting accused of. You know, 515 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 9: he admitted that he won, you know, did kill it, 516 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 9: and it won't this guy. You know, it was a 517 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 9: big decision, is do I jump out there? 518 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: What? 519 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: But I looked at it as if it was my situation. 520 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 9: I was wont with somebody who has information to go 521 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 9: ahead and do it because this is man life online. 522 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: I mean, what can I possibly add to further prove 523 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: what we've been all saying all along? Julius Jones is 524 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: an innocent man on death row. And since almost seven 525 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: million people have signed a petition on Julia's behalf Banker's 526 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: boxes of signatures were delivered to the Oklahoma Border Pardons 527 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: in Parole begging for justice in this case. And now 528 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: since this latest statement from Roderick Wesley, Julius has been 529 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: granted a hearing. It's a Stage two commutation hearing in 530 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: front of the Oklahoma Border Pardons in Parole and it's 531 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: happening on September thirteen, twenty twenty one. But that doesn't 532 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: mean it's time to rest or relax. Now is the 533 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: time to ramp up the pressure. If you'd like to 534 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: add your name to that petition, it's going to be 535 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: linked in the bio. Please help us keep the pressure on. 536 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: And with that we're going to go to closing arguments, where, 537 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: of course, first of all, I think all of you, 538 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: and now we're going to hear from Dale, Antoinette, and 539 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: of course Julius's mother, Madeline. But let's kick it off 540 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: with you first. 541 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 3: Kim Oh, thank you for having me on here, and 542 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 3: thank you for everything that you do and for showing 543 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 3: me the way. Seriously, I look up to you so much, 544 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 3: and I'm so grateful to you for sharing so many 545 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 3: cases with me and that we're able to hopefully open 546 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 3: up people's minds and hearts that might have been a 547 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 3: little bit closed off when it comes to reform, or 548 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 3: might not understood how they could help, and then we're 549 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 3: giving them a platform where they can help out and 550 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 3: be a part of the conversation and help fight for 551 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 3: people that really really deserve it. 552 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: So thank you, Dale, You've done a fantastic job and 553 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 1: I appreciate you making the time. I know it's going 554 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: to make a difference. 555 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 4: Well, thank you, Jason. We have a commutation application pending 556 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 4: before the Oklahoma Pardon and Parole Board. Julius is thankful 557 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 4: for all the support, the prayers, the letters that he 558 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 4: has received that is giving him strength. This case got 559 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 4: the attention it deserved when Viola Davis in Julius Tennant 560 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 4: produced the last defense that put light on this injustice 561 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 4: and wrongful conviction. What's troubling to me, and we should 562 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 4: all be concerned about this, is that without the last defense, 563 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 4: no one would be interested in this case. Julius would 564 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 4: have been just another African American man in prison saying 565 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 4: he was innocent, one of the four percent, and no 566 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 4: one would care. There are thousands of julius'es behind bars 567 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 4: today and people should care. And we know you care, Jason, 568 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 4: and we appreciate that the struggle isn't over. Thank you 569 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:40,479 Speaker 4: very much. 570 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 1: Why don't we save mom for last, because you know 571 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: she's mom? So antoinete over to you. 572 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 8: So first I would say that my brother, Julius there 573 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 8: is Jones. He did not kill Paul. How my brother 574 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 8: is a human being. He is not a number. When 575 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 8: we consider people human beings and not just numbers, and 576 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 8: we really take it into account all the facts. I'm 577 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 8: just asking them to correct this wrong. I'm asking you 578 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,240 Speaker 8: to look at all of the key points in this case. 579 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 8: I'm asking you to understand that my brother never got 580 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 8: a fair defense. He never got a proper defense, he 581 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 8: never got a jur of his peers, he never got 582 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 8: a chance to voice what happened to him from his side. 583 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 8: And I'm just asking you, as a human being, to 584 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,240 Speaker 8: understand and take my brother in consideration as. 585 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 7: A human being and not a number. 586 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 2: He is not a. 587 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 8: Person that will take a life. He is a person 588 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 8: that will protect a life. He is a person that 589 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 8: cares about everybody's well being. To this day, he cares. 590 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 8: He cares more about how everybody else is doing than 591 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 8: how he's doing. Inside. That's who my brother is. He's 592 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 8: a person that cares. He's a loyal person. He is 593 00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 8: a person that loves life. I never gave up, and 594 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 8: I'm still not gonna give up. We shall not give up. 595 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 8: We shall not rest. Even though the defense rests for him, 596 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 8: we shall not rest. 597 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, and now for the final words, Madeline. 598 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 6: First of all, Julius is a good person. 599 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 5: He's very kind, he's loving, compassion, and a lot of 600 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 5: times he will hurt himself to keep from hurting someone else, 601 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 5: and that's the reason he's in predicament. 602 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 6: He's in now, and. 603 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 5: I just want to say to the bole board that 604 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,720 Speaker 5: one science does not fit all and that I would 605 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,799 Speaker 5: like for them to take careful consideration concerning Julius and 606 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 5: to look at what he will be able to contribute 607 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 5: to society if they spare his life. We just need 608 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 5: to try to get things right because when justice is 609 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 5: covered up, it stays cover for so long, but it 610 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 5: will either burn through or it will grow. And right 611 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 5: now I feel like that justice is growing because it 612 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 5: wants to be heard and it wants to be fulfilled 613 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,879 Speaker 5: what it's really meant to be justice for all, not 614 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 5: just for some of us. 615 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,760 Speaker 6: And you know, freedom is worth more than money. 616 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 5: My biggest joy is to help my son home and 617 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 5: to be about the things that he's dreamed and long 618 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 5: to want to do. And I thank God for this 619 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 5: opportunity today to be able to express so many things 620 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 5: that I've helped in today. I really thank God for you, Jason, 621 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 5: I thank God for people like you. 622 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Rafel Conviction. I'd like to 623 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,720 Speaker 1: thank our production team, Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cleiburn 624 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: and Kevin Wartis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music 625 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated 626 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram 627 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and 628 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava 629 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow 630 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flam. 631 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcast 632 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one