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Speaker 1: Hi. This is due to the virus. I'm recording from home,

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Speaker 1: so you may notice a difference in audio quality on

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Speaker 1: this episode of News World. Doctor Michael Crowe is a

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Speaker 1: disruptor and innovative leader in the field of education. He

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Speaker 1: became the sixteenth president of Arizona State University in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and two and has spearheaded as US rapid and

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Speaker 1: groundbreaking transformative revolution into one of the world's best public

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Speaker 1: metropolitan research universities. Through doctor Crowe's leadership and vision, Arizona

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Speaker 1: State University has been named the number one most innovative

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Speaker 1: school in the nation by US News and World Report

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Speaker 1: for four years. ASU strives to make education accessible and

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Speaker 1: affordable to any qualified student. They currently enroll one hundred

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Speaker 1: and sixty five thousand learners on campus and online. In fact,

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Speaker 1: was Magazine named doctor Crowe number forty four out of

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Speaker 1: the world's fifty Greatest Leaders in two nineteen and said

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Speaker 1: quote Crowe has spent seventeen years reinventing party school ASU

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Speaker 1: as a higher and innovator, adding satellite campuses, online degrees,

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Speaker 1: and partnerships to educate Starbucks employees and Uber drivers. Enrollment

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Speaker 1: at ninety eight thousand is nearly twice that of two

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Speaker 1: thousand and two, and the student body is far more

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Speaker 1: economically and racially diverse. Expansion has not heard learning fifty

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Speaker 1: two percent of students graduated four years, up from twenty

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Speaker 1: eight percent in two thousand and two. He is the

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Speaker 1: author of two books, including his latest, The Fifth Wave,

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Speaker 1: The Evolution of American Higher Education. I'm pleased to welcome

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Speaker 1: my guest, doctor Michael Crowe, President of Arizona State University.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Crowe, as we begin our discussion, would you start

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Speaker 1: with what's not working in higher education right now and

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest issues we are facing. First, thanks

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Speaker 1: for the chances to get together and talk. I really

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Speaker 1: appreciate having an opportunity to speak with you. The issue

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Speaker 1: that's out there now is that we have become obsessed

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Speaker 1: with basically exclusion and scarcity as the drivers. The best

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Speaker 1: schools are those that have the most applications and let

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Speaker 1: in the fewest number of people. That creates a tiering

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Speaker 1: in the higher education system where everybody's striving to become

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Speaker 1: more and more exclusive, that their evolutionary pattern is exclusion.

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Speaker 1: That then creates a dynamic energy in all of the

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Speaker 1: public colleges. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them where

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Speaker 1: they are unable or unwilling to innovate, and they become

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Speaker 1: trapped in a locked in bureaucratic model, and the lock

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Speaker 1: in bureaucratic model doesn't allow them to adjust and adapt.

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Speaker 1: And then we're beginning to see graduation rates go down,

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Speaker 1: we're seeing costs accelerating somewhat out of control. The system

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Speaker 1: then is cracking. Of the hundreds and hundreds of billions

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Speaker 1: of dollars that have been spent on pell grants since

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty in the generous moment of American culture where

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Speaker 1: we're helping kids to be able to go to college

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Speaker 1: who can't necessarily afford it, more than half of those

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Speaker 1: students never graduate. They have no degreeing, or diploma or

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Speaker 1: certificate of any type. And it's a terrible, terrible outcome.

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Speaker 1: And so the functional constraints within higher education are a

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Speaker 1: system built on excellence through exclusion and then a lack

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Speaker 1: of innovation in the rest of the system, because if

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Speaker 1: the system believes that exclusion is the path to excellence,

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Speaker 1: then there's no way to innovate to do that. So

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Speaker 1: the system has become broken down with an inability to

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Speaker 1: fulfill its public mission, overly bureaucratized, driven in an agency

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Speaker 1: type model as opposed to an enterprise type model. Those

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Speaker 1: are the basic kinds of things I think that are

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Speaker 1: going on. Can you talk about the extraordinary debt, the

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Speaker 1: college graduate surfacing, and how do we change it them?

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Speaker 1: Right now, the US government allows people to take loans

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Speaker 1: under the name of student loans, but they don't equate

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Speaker 1: it or drive institutions and students to success from those investments.

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Speaker 1: So you can take a loan for a car as

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Speaker 1: a student loan, but there's no correlation with your completion

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Speaker 1: at the university. I'm deeply of the view that investments

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Speaker 1: by the federal government, either in the forms of grants

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Speaker 1: or loans, should be tied to the universities or colleges,

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Speaker 1: and both the student and the college should be responsible

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Speaker 1: for outcomes. And so we need more outcome oriented investment.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to give you this investment, but I'm not

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Speaker 1: just giving you this investment and then you get to

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Speaker 1: do whatever you want. You have to make progress, you

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Speaker 1: have to pursue your degree. And so right now what

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Speaker 1: we have is runaway debt, and it's highly problematic, and

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Speaker 1: we need a range of improvements. Did you become presidents

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Speaker 1: who knowing that you were going to take on and

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Speaker 1: fundamentally transform the education system. The answer is yes. I

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Speaker 1: left my role as deputy provost and a factor number

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Speaker 1: at Columbia University because I felt that the system, the

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Speaker 1: higher education system and much of the education system in

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Speaker 1: the US was failing, and it was failing because of

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Speaker 1: a lack of willingness to reconceptualize the design to return

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Speaker 1: to the roots of our egalitarian society and then build

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Speaker 1: institutions that can operate that way. So the answer is yes,

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Speaker 1: I came here hoping to be able to do some

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Speaker 1: of the things that we've been able to do. I'm

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Speaker 1: always fascinated by visionaries who are successful actually pulling it off.

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Speaker 1: What were your opening steps back when you first got there.

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Speaker 1: How did you get people to decide that they wanted

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Speaker 1: to go on your journey? I really focused on was

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Speaker 1: a belief that the faculty themselves, and the staff of

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Speaker 1: the university and the people supporting university wanted it to

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Speaker 1: be successful at social scale. That is, that the initial

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Speaker 1: conceptualization of the institution was to be a powerful driver

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Speaker 1: for the success of our democracy, but that they sort

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Speaker 1: of lost their way, and so the initial approach was

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Speaker 1: to come in and to try to inspire the culture

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Speaker 1: with a well defined purpose. And so we outlined a

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Speaker 1: purpose of the institution that ultimately evolved to be our charter.

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Speaker 1: So what I really went after was culture change, modernization

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Speaker 1: of the culture, empowerment of the culture. And that's not

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Speaker 1: very easy to do, but that's where I started. Could

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Speaker 1: you describe how you imagine the different audiences that you

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Speaker 1: had to carry with you in order for this to work,

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Speaker 1: I thought I needed to really say to the political

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Speaker 1: leadership of the state and to the other leaders of

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Speaker 1: the state, let us be entrepreneurial, let us stop being

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Speaker 1: a government agency. And that was relatively easy to do

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Speaker 1: here in Arizona because people listen to that kind of

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Speaker 1: logic and I got a lot of willingness to say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want you give that a shot. Just don't screw up.

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Speaker 1: A second group was the faculty itself, as I suggested,

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Speaker 1: which I felt had to be empowered. We've disempowered all

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Speaker 1: of our faculties by allowing them to become simple bureaucracies

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Speaker 1: that endless. They fight within systems of resource scarcity that

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Speaker 1: they contrived, and it's not necessary, and so that's a

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Speaker 1: second group. The third group was to convince the broader

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Speaker 1: community of potential learners that the institution was going to

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Speaker 1: be able to be adaptable to differences, different financial circumstances,

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Speaker 1: different learning circumstances, different interests, and that meant detangling the

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Speaker 1: rigidity of the design of the institution to that group.

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Speaker 1: And then we had to rethink our relationship. You know,

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Speaker 1: we've increased our fundraising by a factor of fifteen fifteen fold,

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Speaker 1: so we had to get people to believe in the

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Speaker 1: institution and to invest in the institution for its new purpose,

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Speaker 1: not just the edification of self aggrandizement by the naming

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Speaker 1: of things, but the actual investment in the institution itself.

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Speaker 1: And so all of those groups had to be approached

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Speaker 1: in a unique and different way. One of the more

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Speaker 1: complicated groups, of course, is other university leadership around the country,

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Speaker 1: some of whom shared heartily for us to be successful

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Speaker 1: in others who shared heartily for us not to be successful,

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Speaker 1: in the sense of the fact that our model is

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Speaker 1: pretty disruptive to the core set of assumptions that are

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Speaker 1: out there. So it's a complex set of groups that

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Speaker 1: one's working with to make something happen. I yes this

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Speaker 1: as a former assistant professor a relatively small state college.

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Speaker 1: If I'd been a faculty member when you arrived, how

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Speaker 1: would my life have been different over the last seventeen years. Well,

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Speaker 1: you would have found I think, more opportunity to work

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Speaker 1: in an environment where there's fewer barriers. You could have

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Speaker 1: connected with more people easily. You could have been easily

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Speaker 1: appointed to different schools. You would have been a part

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Speaker 1: of schools, not in every case, but in many cases

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Speaker 1: where you could set your own intellectual agenda, that is,

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Speaker 1: your own intellectual design, freed from just replicating things that

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Speaker 1: existed in other places. We would have delivered to you

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Speaker 1: unbelievable technology to allow you to figure out how to

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Speaker 1: project your own intellectual identity, which thousands of our Factor

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Speaker 1: members have been able to do. And so I hope

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Speaker 1: that if you'd been here as a Factor number, growing

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Speaker 1: up here academically, that you would have felt empowered to

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Speaker 1: have larger voice, larger intellectual flexibility, a larger impact, and

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Speaker 1: that those things would have motivated you. That's what I

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Speaker 1: hope would have happened to you here as a Factor member.

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Speaker 1: I was the coordinator of environmental studies in the very

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Speaker 1: early days, this was early nineteen seventies. One Earth Day

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Speaker 1: was big, and as such, I floated on top of

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Speaker 1: the various departments, so an effect had faculty loaned to me,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't own any turf. How did the departments

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Speaker 1: react to this kind of flexibility. Initially, I think there

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Speaker 1: was a great amount of skepticism coming from maybe a

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Speaker 1: quarter of the faculty and some of the departments. Maybe

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Speaker 1: another quarter of the faculty were who really cares, They

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Speaker 1: were just going to go out and do their thing,

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Speaker 1: and maybe half the fact that maybe half the units

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Speaker 1: were interested in the possibility of new trajectories. And so

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Speaker 1: your experience at environmental Studies is sort of an example.

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Speaker 1: So imagine that we had environmental studies type things, but

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Speaker 1: we had fifty of those or a hundred of those

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Speaker 1: going on in different areas, and we allowed that to happen.

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Speaker 1: And so what we didn't do was we didn't try

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Speaker 1: to bring every single person on. We brought along people

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Speaker 1: like yourself who were interested in doing some of these

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Speaker 1: new things, and then we empowered them, and then we

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Speaker 1: just let that start taking off on its own. So

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Speaker 1: we created a catalytic innovative environment where innovation became a

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Speaker 1: perpetual thing rather than an occasional thing. And that is

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Speaker 1: true in the intellectual design of the institution, also not

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Speaker 1: just in its structural design or its administrative design. Because

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Speaker 1: I've read your work and talk with you, this has

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Speaker 1: been a continuously evolving model. And what you might have

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Speaker 1: had in mind in two thousand and two or three

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Speaker 1: is not necessarily what you have in minded twenty because

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Speaker 1: your own experience and the world have both changed. What

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Speaker 1: would you say are the biggest changes in your understanding

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Speaker 1: of how to lead an institution like this and where

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Speaker 1: an institutional exists us to go well. I think that

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Speaker 1: the lessons that I've learned in this timeframe, one is

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Speaker 1: that this is extremely hard work because the scale of disciplines,

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Speaker 1: the scale of the professoriate around the world is so massive.

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Speaker 1: I think I underestimated the extent to which higher education

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Speaker 1: in the United States is valued. Because of scarcity, the

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Speaker 1: scarcer the seat to enter the freshman class than in theory,

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Speaker 1: the better of the university. Those are powerful forces. What

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Speaker 1: we've had to do is basically say that we're not

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Speaker 1: going to follow those traditional trajectories, which are kind of

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Speaker 1: like sideshow evolutionary environments as opposed to mainstream evolutionary environments.

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Speaker 1: And I think what I've learned along the way is

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Speaker 1: that this is an evolutionary process, or what we're trying

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Speaker 1: to do is to empower the institution to be able

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Speaker 1: to evolve. And I think the lesson I've learned is

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Speaker 1: that that's really really difficult, particularly when almost all of

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Speaker 1: the actors are coming in from institutions that are acculturated differently,

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Speaker 1: and so one of the biggest challenges has been trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out how to balance how we exist in

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Speaker 1: a broader set of higher education institutions while building this

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Speaker 1: unique institution that's required me to be more patient than

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Speaker 1: I might normally be and more flexible than I might

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Speaker 1: think we need to be. You had a remarkably open

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Speaker 1: admission policy for a school which was becoming an elite

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Speaker 1: research institution. You're taking a lot of students who would

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Speaker 1: not normally make it to those so called elite universities,

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Speaker 1: and you are transforming their lives in an asu kind

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Speaker 1: of unique model, both online and in person. Is that

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Speaker 1: a reasonable analysis? That's completely reasonable, and it is in

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Speaker 1: fact at the core of what we're trying to do

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Speaker 1: the notion that a research university can be populated only

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Speaker 1: by the aid plus students from high school, I think

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Speaker 1: is a socially delimiting design. Who would have thought that

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Speaker 1: your life's fate would be determined because you were a

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Speaker 1: screw off in the eleventh grade and ended up with

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Speaker 1: a B average coming out of high school. What we've

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Speaker 1: decided to do was to go back and say, what

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Speaker 1: is the admission requirement that allows you to be qualified

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Speaker 1: to attend the university. And so we went back and

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Speaker 1: looked at the admission requirements at the University of California

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Speaker 1: from nineteen fifty, which was then no tuition and required

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Speaker 1: a B average to be admitted, and you had to

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Speaker 1: take fifteen preparatory courses and get at least to be

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Speaker 1: So those are our admission requirements. Those are not the

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Speaker 1: admission requirements for most research universities, but they are for us.

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Speaker 1: And what we've found is that the environment that we've

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Speaker 1: produced from that is fantastic. What we've also found is

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Speaker 1: unbelievable achievement by not only our incoming A students, but

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Speaker 1: our B students. And then we have other ways to

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Speaker 1: come into the university transferring from community colleges. And then

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Speaker 1: we have another thing called our College Pathways program, where

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Speaker 1: you earn your way into the university by taking and

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Speaker 1: completing college level courses. Successful, you represent a state which

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Speaker 1: has a very complex demographic pattern between Native Americans, Hispanic Americans,

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Speaker 1: African Americans, Asian Americans, and White Americans. Was that there

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Speaker 1: from the beginning or did you gradually evolve into a

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Speaker 1: much more open an integrative approach. It typically wasn't there

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Speaker 1: to the extent that it needed to be. We were

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Speaker 1: not representative of ethnic diversity within the state's population at

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Speaker 1: the university in terms of our students. But the way

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Speaker 1: we approached that was we said that we needed to

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Speaker 1: be representative of the totality of the socioeconomic diversity. It

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Speaker 1: took us ten years to do that. And once we

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Speaker 1: did that, once our student body represented families of all

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Speaker 1: income levels, where we broke down financial barriers, eliminated financial barriers,

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Speaker 1: sought students out, found pathways to the university's programs, and

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Speaker 1: so forth. Once we did that, our ethnic diversity became

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Speaker 1: more diverse than the population itself. The institution is more

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Speaker 1: diverse today, both ethnically and socio economically than it's ever

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Speaker 1: been at any point in its history, and it is

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Speaker 1: as representative as the entire population, and it's never been

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Speaker 1: anywhere near that in its past. And even though you

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Speaker 1: are making it that accessible, you still rose in terms

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Speaker 1: of quality of research. You were becoming a major world

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Speaker 1: level research university while you're at the same time this

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Speaker 1: massive general population education. This is what everybody says is impossible.

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Speaker 1: The model that we were attempting to demonstrate that I

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Speaker 1: think we have demonstrated, is that you can be highly

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Speaker 1: accessible and highly excellent if one measurement of excellences research performance,

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Speaker 1: you can do those two things in the same institution.

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Speaker 1: And then you can add a third dimension, which is

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Speaker 1: the impact of the institution. So our research thing has

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Speaker 1: gone from one hundred million a year to almost seven

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Speaker 1: hundred million a year without a medical school. That's more

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Speaker 1: non medical research than Stanford or USC and more non

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Speaker 1: medical research at Harvard or Columbia, and more total research

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Speaker 1: than Carnegie Mellon or Caltech or any of these schools.

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Speaker 1: So we've built one of those inside the university, and

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Speaker 1: it demonstrates at the faculty and the environment can manage

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Speaker 1: those two things at the same time, How were you

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Speaker 1: able to fund that much financial assistance. One, once we

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Speaker 1: found the value of technology, and once we discovered that

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Speaker 1: technology could help us to improve our outcomes and lower

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Speaker 1: our cost we became much more efficient. So we've done

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Speaker 1: a good job I think of holding our costs down.

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Speaker 1: I think the second thing that we've been able to

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Speaker 1: operate from a scale, So scale has given us the

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Speaker 1: resources to be able to move forward and those things

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Speaker 1: that work. And then as we've moved into our online programs,

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Speaker 1: those programs are both very effective and very efficient, and

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Speaker 1: so that you know, the university is able to operate

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Speaker 1: financially in this new model. So those things coming together

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Speaker 1: helped us to be able to make this work. As

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Speaker 1: you look at all this, do you think this is

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Speaker 1: unique to the system you've build or do you think,

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Speaker 1: in fact a lot of other places could model off

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Speaker 1: of this and evolve into a very similar relationship with

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Speaker 1: their community. I think there are other places that can

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Speaker 1: do this. The argument in the Fifth Wave book is

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Speaker 1: that it's time for America's democracy to birth a new

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Speaker 1: kind of university. And these would be schools which are

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Speaker 1: research capable, scholarly intensive, scalable, diverse, and projectable. That is,

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Speaker 1: they can project outside of the physicality of the university itself.

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Speaker 1: I think that there is a need for these kinds

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Speaker 1: of universities, and there are several schools that are moving

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Speaker 1: in this direction and others that want to. What I'm

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Speaker 1: impressed with is not just what you do at the

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Speaker 1: college level, but you run a significant number of K

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Speaker 1: through twelve institutions though too right. We run eleven face

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Speaker 1: to face full immersing charter schools with thousands of students

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Speaker 1: K twelve in low income neighborhoods, and we also run

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Speaker 1: a digital preparatory academy which has high school embedded in

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Speaker 1: it also, which has about twenty two thousand learners. That's amazing.

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Speaker 1: What has that taught you about what the rest of

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Speaker 1: the country should be doing in terms of K through twelve,

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Speaker 1: which in many ways is a much bigger problem for

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Speaker 1: us than college and graduate school. It's a huge problem.

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Speaker 1: And the reason that we did the ASU Preparatory Academy

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Speaker 1: that's call our K twelve schools was we got sick

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Speaker 1: of people telling us that everyone couldn't graduate from high school,

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Speaker 1: and sick of all the silly excuses that they had

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Speaker 1: about this or that and so what we decided to

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Speaker 1: do was to take lessons that we'd learned and tools

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Speaker 1: that we'd built, and teams that we thought that we

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Speaker 1: can construct and design and deploy K through twelve schools

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Speaker 1: that could graduate everyone and move everyone into post secondary education,

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Speaker 1: either a technical school or a community college, or the

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Speaker 1: university or the military. And so we've been able to

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Speaker 1: do this, And the lessons are that you have to

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Speaker 1: set that as a goal. All assets have to move

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Speaker 1: towards that goal, no excuses. The use of technology is

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Speaker 1: very very important, the use of analytics is very very important.

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Speaker 1: The measurement of all things is really important. The culture

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Speaker 1: has to be one built around a presumption of success

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Speaker 1: rather than what we've seen in several cultures, the presumption

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Speaker 1: of failure. So these K twelve schools that we've operated

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Speaker 1: have become powerful learning environments for us. Also, I'll say

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Speaker 1: one of the thing relative to them, and that is

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Speaker 1: this gap between the universities and the colleges and the

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Speaker 1: K twelve. It's an unnecessary and net negative gap. We

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Speaker 1: should take every asset that we have at the university

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Speaker 1: and make it available to every high school. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: diminish what's available to the university students by making it

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Speaker 1: available to high school students and connecting and so this

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Speaker 1: is another thing that we're working to do. Can you

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Speaker 1: find in that sense that there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: K through twelve students who actually can do dramatically more

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Speaker 1: serious work than would normally occur in K through twelve?

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Speaker 1: We're low balling in every possible way in high school,

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Speaker 1: we're not individualizing education enough. In our issue digital Prep,

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Speaker 1: we now have two hundred college courses embedded into that

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Speaker 1: preparatory academy for high school students to take, and they're

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Speaker 1: doing very, very well in those. We've also found that

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Speaker 1: if you can individualize learning using our adaptive learning platforms,

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Speaker 1: using other kinds of platforms, and you can really find

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Speaker 1: the pathway to learning for high school students rather than

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Speaker 1: just trying to force them through these kinds of industrial factories.

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Speaker 1: Those things just aren't going to work except in neighborhoods

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Speaker 1: of very extreme resources, of which there's very few of those.

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Speaker 1: So what we do find is that learning potential is

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Speaker 1: much broader than people seem to realize in the structures

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Speaker 1: that we have. Is there a capacity limit to your

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Speaker 1: academy or could people sign up from all over the country.

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Speaker 1: There's no capacity limit to the A issue prep digital.

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Speaker 1: That's a scalable capacity. We have students right now from

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Speaker 1: all over the country, and we have programs expanding in Utah, California,

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Speaker 1: discussions about programs expanding in Georgia and in Illinois and

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Speaker 1: other places. Would you take to sub minute and talk

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Speaker 1: about when you wrote the Fifth Wave the Evolution of

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Speaker 1: American higher Education? Why did you pick the title the

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Speaker 1: fifth Wave. It has to do with the fact that

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Speaker 1: there have been four distinct waves of American higher education evolution.

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Speaker 1: The first wave where the colonial colleges Harvard, Princeton, Columbia,

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Speaker 1: Penn ten or so. These existed at the time of

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Speaker 1: the Revolution, and they were basically extrapolations of the British model,

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Speaker 1: but not organized into universities. They couldn't be built in

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Speaker 1: the South for whatever, and they all were in the

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Speaker 1: mid Atlantic and in the Northeast, and so Georgia, South Carolina,

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Speaker 1: and North Carolina. Then right after the Revolution got universities going,

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Speaker 1: and then Jefferson got University Virginia going right in the

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Speaker 1: first quarter of the nineteenth century. That's the second wave,

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Speaker 1: was the beginning of the emergence of the public college,

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Speaker 1: the idea of the public college, which in the twentieth

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Speaker 1: century added community colleges and state colleges. The third wave

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Speaker 1: was the product of America's diversification, growth, industrialization, and agricultural

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Speaker 1: The fourth wave was the American idea of merging the

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Speaker 1: German Technical School with the British College. Hopkins was the first.

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Speaker 1: Stanford in Chicago were the second and third. They became

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Speaker 1: philanthropically back to prototypes of the American Research University that

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Speaker 1: was the fourth wave. Many many other schools like Harbor Michigan, California.

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Speaker 1: Ultimately even ASHU became fourth Wave schools. And the suggestion

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Speaker 1: of the fifth wave is that evolution didn't stop with

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Speaker 1: the emergence of the American Research University. America is still evolving,

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Speaker 1: growing and expanding and diversifying and becoming more and more complex.

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Speaker 1: So new models are needed. So the fifth wave is

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Speaker 1: our articulation of the idea for the new model. This adaptable, expandable, innovative,

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Speaker 1: technologically driven, socially projectable new kind of university and ASSUE

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Speaker 1: is the prototype. I was really impressed at the very

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Speaker 1: high thro the COVID pandemic and people closing down, etc.

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Speaker 1: Would you just say one minute and explain the scale

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Speaker 1: of it you used and the fact that you didn't

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Speaker 1: miss a stride. So many places closed down or they

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Speaker 1: had very ineffective online learning but nobody knew what they

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00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 1: were doing. Explain how ASU dealt with the COVID shutdown.

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Speaker 1: When we realized that we couldn't come back to complete

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Speaker 1: the spring semester in March, we were able to successfully

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Speaker 1: in forty eight hours convert to a new mode that

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Speaker 1: we actually now have as a new modality for the

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Speaker 1: university called ASU SYNC, which is shorthand for synchrons, which

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Speaker 1: means Zoom enabled Technological projection of the university. We trained

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Speaker 1: in Zoom technology thousands of Factor members who had already

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Speaker 1: been trained in digital technology. Also, we were able to

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Speaker 1: move eleven thousand courses into ZOOM mode, and by the

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Speaker 1: end of the semester we had used about three hundred

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Speaker 1: million minutes of ZOOM with as many as ninety thousand

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Speaker 1: people tied in at one time. In fact, Zoom told

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Speaker 1: us that we were one of the five most significant

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Speaker 1: consumers of their technology on the planet. We did this

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Speaker 1: also for our K twelve charter schools. They didn't miss

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Speaker 1: a day. We had the highest completion rate for the

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Speaker 1: spring semester that we've ever had. We had about seventy

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Speaker 1: five percent of the students that we surveyed said that

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Speaker 1: their learning experience were as good or better. Twenty percent

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Speaker 1: said about the same, and only about five percent said

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Speaker 1: that it was worse. So we felt that that was

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Speaker 1: a successful outcome. We learned a lot. For the fall semester,

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Speaker 1: we will now have three modalities that were operating in

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Speaker 1: assue full immersion on campus if we're able to reassemble,

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Speaker 1: assue synchronous immersion, which is what we did with Zoom,

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Speaker 1: and then assue Digital immersion, which is online. We have

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Speaker 1: record enrollment for our summer school, sixty thousand students in

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Speaker 1: summer school right now, in our sync mode, in our

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Speaker 1: digital mode. I really give it to our faculty and

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Speaker 1: to our IT team. They were able to completely morph

435
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 1: the institution. Now this is not just a casual thing.

436
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 1: You should see the work products that came out of

437
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 1: our design school and our music school. The musical performances

438
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: that our students were able to carry out using Zoom technology,

439
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: they are astounding. We were very happy that we were

440
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: able to make this adjustment so quickly. If you think

441
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: about your own trajectory over the last eighteen years and

442
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 1: you then look out, say fifty years, we will be

443
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 1: his shault of education. Be like at that point. By

444
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: then we will have to have moved to a mode

445
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: of learning being a lifetime thing, not a thing early

446
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: your life. Before age twenty five, you will come in

447
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 1: and out of various types of institutions. Some colleges and

448
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: universities will stay isolated. Everyone will have to be finishing

449
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: high school but mastering high school. Everyone will have to

450
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: become involved in education throughout their life just to team

451
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: up with the rate of technological advance the rate of

452
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: changes in the economy. It's all going to be within

453
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 1: single generations, even fractions of generations. And so I think

454
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: it's going to be about speed and adaptability as well

455
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: as how do we find a way fifty years from

456
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 1: now to teach in ways in which we can still

457
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: capture the totality of history as it's expanding and evolving

458
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 1: at orders of magnitude with more complexity than it had

459
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 1: in the past. And so we're going to need more

460
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: innovations and different models of learning and teaching. And I

461
00:26:50,280 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 1: think it's a hugely important time. I want to switch

462
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: gears and shift to another topic, which will be one

463
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: of the two or three, if not the biggest questions

464
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: the next fifty years, and that is China. And I

465
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: know you've done a lot of thinking about it, and

466
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: you've done a lot of work in China. How do

467
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: you think about China and what sort of patterns do

468
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: you try to study or to work off of as

469
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: you look at China. China obviously is an immensely complicated

470
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: place that is coming up on its fiftieth year of

471
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: an open relationship with the United States from President Nixon's

472
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: opening of China, and its fortieth year of evolving into

473
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: a form of modern economy. And in both cases, the

474
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: accelerated rate of dynamic change given where they were before

475
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 1: that is so astounding it's hard to describe. China is

476
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: a place in which they are approaching things from a

477
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: different value system than we have, but it is a

478
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: scaled economy and a scale culture that I'm hopeful that

479
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: we can find ways to successfully work with China in

480
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: a way where we avoid global superpower conflict and that

481
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: we find some way to work together. What is your

482
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 1: experience been like working in China and trying to have

483
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: a relationship with Chinese higher education generally positive. We have

484
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: a big program in Hainan Province with thousands of students

485
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: working with Hainan University. We operate a program with our

486
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: business school in Shanghai with the Shanghai National Accounting Institute.

487
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: We built an American Culture Center at Sichuan University. Former

488
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: Ambassador John Huntsman Jr. Asked me to see if I

489
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: could facilitate the building of American culture centers in Chinese universities.

490
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: We got thirteen of them going, including the one that

491
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: we started, and we had to negotiate with the university's

492
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: party officials. They had to work our way through the

493
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: provincial governments, we had to work our way through the

494
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: national government. I have a lot of interactive experience just

495
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: getting programs started, launching them, working them, making them successful.

496
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: And what I find is that they are significant admirers

497
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: of the American higher education system, of American universities, of

498
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: American research universities. To be a scholar in China is

499
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: socially more status oriented than it is in the United

500
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: States by a long shot. I think that there is

501
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: a strong and potentially positive set of relationships that can

502
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: be derived within the academic structure. If you can set

503
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: up a set of rules that are fair. Can Chinese

504
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: students come to a issue. Yes, we had last year

505
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: about thirty four hundred students from China at a issue.

506
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,959
Speaker 1: We won't have that many this year because of COVID

507
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: and travel restrictions and complexities and so forth and so on.

508
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: Do you try to also afford an opportunity for your

509
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: students to go to China? Yes, we have programs in sustainability,

510
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: programs in other areas culture, language, Yes we do. I

511
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: wrote a book last year on Trump versus China, focusing

512
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: on the Jesi and Being and the Chinese communist dictatorship.

513
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: But I put an entire chapter in there that said,

514
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: it's not China's fault. And I said, you know, you

515
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: can't blame the Chinese. For example, if the Baltimore school

516
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: systems have entire buildings where nobody's been able to pass

517
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: an exam, that is not China's fault. But you're trying

518
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: to accomplish that. One of the great drivers in the

519
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: next twenty years is going to be that the current

520
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: US education system is simply incapable of preparing young people

521
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: to compete with China. That the quality of work, the

522
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: seriousness of work that the Chinese are engaged in, is

523
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: just dramatically different then we are currently used to, and

524
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: that just from a national security standpoint, education is going

525
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: to become a national security issue. What do you think

526
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: we need to do so that the next generation of

527
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: Americans who'll be capable of competing with their counterparts in

528
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: China in the US, for whatever reason, we don't realize

529
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: the nature of the competition. We're like the wealthy family,

530
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: three or four generations into the family that can't any longer.

531
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: Remember how they got wealthy In China, they're the scrappers.

532
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: They're the first generation and the second generation getting wealthy.

533
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: We don't realize the nature of the competition. The competition

534
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: is who is the most industrious, Who is the most innovative,

535
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: Who is the hardest working, Who is the most creative?

536
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: Who can produce the most engineers or the most creative

537
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: digital artists? And it's all those things. We don't realize

538
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 1: that the world's economy, led by China, has become a

539
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: true competitor. We're not currently conditioned to have a long

540
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: term competitor. Correct. We're delusional to think that somehow such

541
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: a competitor is a net negative. Such a competitor is

542
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: a net positive if the rules are fair, because it

543
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: will stimulate rates of innovation and rates of creativity and

544
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: rates of expression and rates of economic growth that will

545
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: benefit everyone, and we don't see it that way. I

546
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: think that's why what you're doing with the K through

547
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: twelve students in the ASU system is really important as

548
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: a potential prototype for a lot of other people to

549
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: learn from and to see to what extent they could

550
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: develop similar patterns. If you're a brilliant physicist or mathematician

551
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: at thirteen, you ought to learn as much as you

552
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: can learn, yes, because you will probably drop out. I've

553
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: been to probably thirty or forty different Chinese universities, maybe

554
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: more than that, and many many laboratories and dozens and

555
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,959
Speaker 1: dozens of companies over there. We decided in two thousand

556
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: and nine to quit listening to the rhetoric that nobody

557
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: in the United States is interested in being an engineer. Well,

558
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: that's false. Many people are, they're just not interested in

559
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: the way our engineering schools work. So in two thousand

560
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: and nine we had six thousand students in engineering, and

561
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: we had a weed out culture. Eight percent of the

562
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: freshman made it to the end of the freshman year

563
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: and the rest thirty two percent we're obliterated along the way.

564
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: So in the ten years since then, we've grown engineering

565
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: from six thousand students to twenty five thousand students here

566
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: at a issue, seventeen thousand on campus and eight online.

567
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: We've taken freshman retention from sixty eight percent to ninety percent,

568
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: and we've done this with huge numbers of new kids

569
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: coming in from every family background imaginable who want to

570
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: be engineers. Now, to do that, we had to eliminate

571
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: all eleven of our engineering departments and their names Industrial engineering,

572
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: civil Engineering. We've created Grand Challenge engineering programs, we built

573
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: technology platform. So the notion was, how does America compete

574
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: with China relative to the production of young talent as engineers,

575
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: just as an example, and the answer is, you do

576
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,719
Speaker 1: not sit back and wind. You must innovate, you must adapt,

577
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: you must move forward in new ways. And we've been

578
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: able to do that. So we're producing several times the

579
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: number of engineering graduates that we were, and any times

580
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: the number of engineering graduates that are women are minority

581
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: students than we were because we decided to do that.

582
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: And that's going to be the only way that we're

583
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: going to be able to be competitive, not just in engineering.

584
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 1: It's going to be by scaling and adapting and diversifying

585
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: and taking advantage of the totality of our culture, which

586
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 1: we haven't been able to do yet. By the way,

587
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: since it's going to come back three hundred and thirty

588
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: to three hundred and thirty five million people, this is

589
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: a massive country growing to four hundred, four hundred and

590
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 1: fifty million before you're twenty seventy timeframe. Unless we start

591
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: building hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of new colleges and universities,

592
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: which we're not going to do, we're going to need

593
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 1: a new, scalable model and that's what we're figuring out

594
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: how to do. Also, that's great. Listen, thank you for

595
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: doing this. I appreciate you taking the time. You appreciate it.

596
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:48,919
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll get some more ideas that people will send

597
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 1: us their ideas out there, and now I'll answer your questions.

598
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: Run and from Georgia Rights. Thank you for all you

599
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: do to keep conservatives educated. Can you please explain why

600
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 1: requiring people to wear masks with the safety of others,

601
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: especially our seniors, is not against the constitution. It's my

602
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: constitutional rights, seems to the loudest rallying cry for those

603
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: who do not want to wear masks. Well, there are

604
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: provisions in the Constitution for suspending things that usually relate

605
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: to insurrection or civil war. But you can make an

606
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: argument if it's a large enough public health crisis that

607
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 1: the community at large has the right to impose rules.

608
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: There was a very famous case many years ago involving

609
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: a woman called Typhoid Mary, who had a very unusual

610
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: case of typhoid and they couldn't cure it, and wherever

611
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: she went she was spreading typhoid, which was killing people

612
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: given the medicine of her generation. And so ultimately she

613
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 1: was in fact locked into a house untol She could

614
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: not leave the house, and they brought her food and

615
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,919
Speaker 1: they tried to get her things, but they were very

616
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 1: strict because wherever she went she infected people. Now, historically

617
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: we don't require random people who are not sick to

618
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: wear masks, and historically we don't quarantine the healthy, we

619
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: quarantine the sick. So I have to say, as a historian.

620
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: I have been totally confused by how screwed up this is.

621
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: I don't understand it. I can't understand the numbers. My

622
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: younger daughter, Jackie Cushman, is a certified financial analyst and

623
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: used to run a billion dollars a year budget for

624
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: an AT and T Ballsouth joint venture, and she said

625
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: she has never seen data as totally impossible to understand

626
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 1: as the data we get about the spirates. So whether

627
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 1: that is pure incompetence or whether it's deliberate, I don't

628
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: know that. I am very uncomfortable, and I'm saying this

629
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: to you from Italy, where we went through a ten

630
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,919
Speaker 1: week absolute lockdown with only grocery stores, pharmacies and guest

631
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: stations open, with a thirty two hundred dollars fine if

632
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 1: you're in the street without a legitimate reason with everything closed.

633
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: But now virtually everybody's out on the street again, and

634
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 1: the museums are open, the restaurants are open. About forty

635
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: percent of people wear masks, but it's really much more

636
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: optional they used to be. And frankly, the idea, for example,

637
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 1: that the governor of California just closed the zoos is

638
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: utterly stupid. I mean, if anything, you want public spaces

639
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: for little kids to be able to go out. I mean,

640
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 1: these little kids are going crazy locked up, particularly if

641
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: you're in a poor neighborhood and you're in a very

642
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: small apartment and you have no space and no opportunity,

643
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 1: and the idiot governor who's very wealthy, sitting up there

644
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: in the Sacramento with his nice winery and Napa Valley,

645
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: decides that you can't even go to the zoo. And

646
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: the idea of a four year old having a problem

647
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: out in the open at the San Diego Zoo or

648
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: the San Francisco Zoo or the Griffin part of zoo

649
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, this is just madness. And we seem

650
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: to be, I think, caught up in an age of

651
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Speaker 1: panic and fantasy, sort of resembling waves in the Middle Ages,

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Speaker 1: when people would go from town to town beating on themselves.

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Speaker 1: They're called the flagilante. And we now have a whole

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Speaker 1: series of politicians who should sign up for the flagilanti,

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Speaker 1: except they're determined to beat on us. If the governor

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Speaker 1: California wants to beat on himself, that's fine, but I

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Speaker 1: don't want him to beat on me or other people,

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Speaker 1: and that's where we are. I think of the dumber

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Speaker 1: politicians you're watching as the Flagilanti. Look it up, see

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Speaker 1: what it was like in the Middle Ages, and you'll

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Speaker 1: understand exactly what we're living through. It is a totally

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Speaker 1: mindless anti science experience, has nothing to do with public

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Speaker 1: health and everything to do with the political ideological insanity.

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Speaker 1: Thank you to my guests, structor Michael Crowe. You can

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Speaker 1: read more about Arizona State University and his book The

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Speaker 1: Fifth Wave on our show page at newtsworld dot com.

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Speaker 1: Newts World is produced by Gangwis who sixty and iHeartMedia.

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Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Debbie Myers and our producer is

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Speaker 1: Guernsey Slump. The artwork for the show was created by

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Speaker 1: Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Gingwish three sixty.

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Speaker 1: Please email me with your questions at Gingwish three sixty

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Speaker 1: dot com slash questions. I'll answer them in future episodes.

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Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying news World, I hope you'll go

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Speaker 1: to Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five stars

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Speaker 1: and give us a review so others can learn what

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Speaker 1: it's all about. I'm new Gingwish. This is new told,