1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From House to 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and this is our Summer Reading 4 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen episode. Every summer we talk about books 5 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: because this is the time of year when folks are 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: hopefully having a little extra time to read. Hopefully, hopefully 7 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,239 Speaker 1: you're on a beach somewhere and you're reading, and then 8 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 1: you can tell us about it. I would love to 9 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: hear I have really weird beach reads. Let me tell you. 10 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: Last summer it was a Curt Vonnegut book. I can't 11 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: remember which one. I have a couple of myself. I 12 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: can't remember which one was. And the summer before that, 13 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: it was The Lee Family of Virginia, So like an 14 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: entire book of nonfiction on the leaves, like Robert Ealie 15 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: of Virginia. Because I'm just like that sounds like a page. 16 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: I know people at the beach are like, what is 17 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: They're holding their mystery novels, holding their fifty shades of 18 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: gray inside of like an economist magazine? Right, look, legitimate, 19 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: are you reading anything right now? Any good? Any good books? 20 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: I actually just finished Monkey Mind, a Memoir of Anxiety 21 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: by Daniel Smith, because I myself have like just a constant, 22 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: low grade baseline anxiety that peaks now and again, and 23 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: you can tell because I get really sweaty um, And 24 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: I have started reading. I'm taking a break from the 25 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:38,479 Speaker 1: clinical nonfiction stuff to go to uh Lamb, the story 26 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: of Christ's childhood pal, written by Christopher Moore. Huh, it's funny. 27 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: Um so far, I'm like only like a hundred and 28 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: fifty pages into it, and then I kind of want 29 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: to read Brain on Fire by that journalist who I 30 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: can't remember her name at the moment, young journalist who 31 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: basically like kind of law sit for a couple of months. Yeah, 32 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: there was an interview with her on NPR that I've 33 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: been wanting to listen to her on a Fresh Air. Yeah, 34 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: I'm I'm kind of obsessed with books that have anything 35 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 1: to do with the brain or anxiety or anything like that, because, 36 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: like I said, I do get anxiety, but also I 37 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: get migraines, and so that's why I love reading like 38 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: Oliver Stacks, who's a neuropsychologist and talks about hallucinations and 39 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: all sorts of brain circuitry stuff. Well, I have been 40 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: on more of the lighter side. As I mentioned on 41 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: Facebook a few weeks ago, I have now finished Wild, 42 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: the memoir by Sherl Strait, who I mentioned in our 43 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: episode on Advice Columns. I have a huge writer and 44 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: just person crush on. She's fantastic and in so many ways, 45 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 1: and I've been wanting to read her memoir and I did, 46 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: and it's great and I highly recommend. I know a 47 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: number of listeners commented that they had read it as well. 48 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: And kind of randomly, I'm reading Carson mccullor's Wedding guest 49 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: or guest at the Wedding Um, about a twelve year 50 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: old girl who has quite an imagination. It's more of 51 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: a novella, and I just kind of wanted something to 52 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,119 Speaker 1: just stip through. It's like a fiction paletate cleanser. And 53 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: I'm also reading A Natural History of Breasts or it's 54 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: called Breasts a Natural and Unnatural History. And hopefully we'll 55 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: have the the author on, but I haven't asked her 56 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: to come on yet. So if you're listening, author, this 57 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: is your formal invitation. Well, I mean, okay, so what 58 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: we're talking about for this summer reading episode is you 59 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: know the title can you judge a book by its 60 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: gendered cover? And I was thinking about that with when 61 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: I walked out of the bookstore with my copy of 62 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: Wild and Wedding Guests and this book about Breast, all 63 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: of which were slightly feminine. I mean, Wild is a 64 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: boot hiking boot on a white background. The Carson mccolor's 65 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: book Is is a blurred picture of a young girl 66 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: so dancing in the field, which was very prototypical female 67 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: author book. And then Press, as you can imagine, it's 68 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: got a silhouette of a lad figure. Um. But we 69 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about book covers more than maybe the 70 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: substance of books, because online lately there has been a 71 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: lot of discussion prompted by female authors about hey, guess 72 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: what's going on with these covers. Yeah, and not just 73 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: the covers, but we'll also get into a little bit 74 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: of the attitude of male authors being taken more seriously 75 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: than female authors. There was there was quite a big 76 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: debate about that online and you might have heard of this. 77 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,679 Speaker 1: It's called the cover flip challenge, and it all started 78 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: out on Twitter when author Marine Johnson, who by the way, 79 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: I went to her personal side. I thought it was 80 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: kind of interesting. She has a very pinkish personal side. 81 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: But she kicked off this cover flip challenge to highlight 82 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: the high le gendered quote unquote soft sell book covers 83 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: in more marketing violence that are often used for books 84 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: written by women, And she tweeted, I do wish I 85 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: had a dime for every email that says, please put 86 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: a non girly cover on your book so I can 87 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: read it, Signed a guy, And then she tweeted project 88 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: redesigned book covers by literary dudes, imagine they have been 89 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: reclassified as by and for women hashtag challenge and hundreds 90 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: of people responded. And doing this challenge sort of brought 91 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: up the fact that there is this attitude about gender 92 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 1: and about gendered looking books that they're not for boys 93 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: or for men, which is ridiculous because it's not like 94 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: boys and men can't read books written by female authors, 95 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: or not even that they can't or that they don't 96 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: want to write right exactly. And so yeah, she just 97 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: thought that this whole idea of girl books versus boy 98 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: books and chick lit, and she says, whatever is the 99 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: guy equivalent of chick lit? Give credit to absolutely no one, 100 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 1: And she just wanted people, as she says, to be 101 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: freed from some of these constraints. And so some of 102 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: the cover flips that were featured in a side show 103 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: Overundhuvington Post were of the book carry Game of Thrones 104 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: The Absolutely True Diary of a Part Time Indian by 105 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 1: Sherman Alexei Neil, Game in Stardust, which I know is 106 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: a favorite of a number of listeners on the Road 107 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 1: by Jack Kerouac, Freedom by Jonathan Franzen, which kicked off 108 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: a discussion which we'll talk about as well about gender 109 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: and literature. UM. Also a clockwork orange David sedariss Me 110 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: talked pretty one day and so forth. And what they 111 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: did was they made female versions of these and I 112 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: say female in quotes, female versions of these uh covers. 113 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: And it was really striking to see the visuals. And 114 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: I wish that for a moment that we could somehow 115 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: do like a video in lay in this podcast so 116 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: that you could see what we're talking about. UM. But 117 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: I just trust this when we say that it was 118 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: not very hard to turn something like a Game of 119 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: Thrones into all of a sudden Game of Throne, you know, right, 120 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: And there was one big to do in particular over 121 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: one book, and that is Sylvia Platts The bell Jar 122 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: uh Favor Books over based in England, rerelease it for 123 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: its fiftieth anniversary, and people freaked out because the cover 124 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: image was of a quote unquote retrobabe applying makeup, which 125 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: which what it looked very prototypical chicklick cover. You would 126 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: have no idea. If you had no idea who Sylvia 127 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: Plata is, what the bell Jar is about, it would 128 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: seem like you were picking up a story about a 129 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: girl who I don't know it's going to go on 130 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: a lot of dates, or maybe like a ya ya 131 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: Sisterhood sequel. And the theory accorded by graphic designer Barbara 132 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: de Wilde was that, hey, you know what, maybe this 133 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: publisher is just trying to drag in a young crowd. 134 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: And the theory was confirmed by said publisher, who wrote 135 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: in our endless endeavor to keep our backlist writers in 136 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: the minds and hands of new readers, we often look 137 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: to packaging as a way of describing an old work afresh, 138 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: and their defense of putting you know this, it's a 139 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 1: bright red cover, uh sorely script and a woman applying makeup, 140 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: they say, the image on the cover picks up on 141 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 1: the beginning of the story where the narrator is encountering 142 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: conflict between new freedom and old assumptions about women's aspirations. Well, 143 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 1: regardless of the defense, I think a lot of people 144 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: still got their feathers ruffled by it. Absolutely, And well, 145 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: it might seem trivial to spend so much time talking 146 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: about book jackets when perhaps you might think, well, does 147 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: it really matter what the cover looks like? Is long 148 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: is where you know, reading what's inside and really gleaning 149 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: the meat from that. But in terms of how we 150 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: consume that media and for new readers out there who 151 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: were just browsing through bookstores, it absolutely does matter. And 152 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: I feel like that point was summed up really well 153 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: in a quote from a New York Times article that 154 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: came out by The New Republic's Chloe Shama, and she 155 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: she wrote a brief piece asking the question of why 156 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: there are so many images of female bare backs on books, 157 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: And there was this illustration that they did for it. 158 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: And indeed, I mean it was just like title after 159 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: title that she was listing, and it wasn't necessarily a 160 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: thing where it was only women's backs on books. By women. 161 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 1: It was male and female authors, but there seemed to 162 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: be something to do with all of well, with it 163 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: being just this go to image, but the back issue aside, 164 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: and why book designers may or may not be kind 165 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: of obsessed with the female back. Her novelist friends said, 166 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: a book jacket seems to like the single most efficient 167 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: way to signal whether a book has substance or not. 168 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: And I feel like that really sums up the point 169 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: of even having a conversation about the book jacket, because 170 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: if you are an author, it's a very important process, 171 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: not just the selecting of the title, but also the 172 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: design of your book jacket probably says a lot about 173 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,599 Speaker 1: how it's going to be marketed, how it's going to 174 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: be reviewed, and whether or not a publisher is really 175 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: taking it seriously and considering it, you know, a piece 176 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: of literature that they are proud to put out right. 177 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I know this isn't a book written by 178 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: a woman, but the book Lamb that I just referenced 179 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: by Christopher Moore, I mean a lot of his book covers, 180 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: including Lamb, are very kind of, lack of a better word, 181 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: goofy looking, and so you kind of know, like all right, 182 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: he's going to write something funny, and I'm okay with that, 183 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: and that's what I'm going after. You know, it's I 184 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: probably would be put off if I bought a book 185 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: with a really serious cover ended up being hysterical. Well, 186 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 1: speaking of which, just on a side out, there was 187 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: an article in the Chicago Tribune talking about this and 188 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: it mentioned how there was an addition it's actually the 189 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: addition that I have of the Feminine Mystique, which has 190 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: this giant flower on the cover, and I hadn't really 191 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: thought about that before, but it said that this it 192 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,839 Speaker 1: was the perfect example of kind of how this marketing 193 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: is at work. And they interviewed a professor of feminist 194 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: media studies of the University of Iowa, and she said, 195 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: these covers are using every stereotype of mainstream femininity to 196 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: visually represent work that specifically challenges those very stereotypes. So 197 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: it's a really crazy paradox that's going on with the 198 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: example of something like the Feminine Mystique, Right, it is funny. 199 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: I mean, like, you know, are they literally they well 200 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: they must be the publishers literally must just be trying 201 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: to get it into the hands of new people and 202 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: there's absolutely nothing wrong with publishers wanting to sell books 203 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: right now. You and I are very much pro books, 204 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: were pro reading. But uh, within these literary circles, Uh, 205 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of questions about how all these books 206 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: are being sold. And even though the cover flip challenge 207 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: sprang up pretty recently, a public internet fuel conversation over 208 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: women writers and how they're marketed and regarded in literary 209 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: circles as well really first sprang up in two thousand ten, 210 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: right after the publication and swift Pulitzer nomination of Jonathan 211 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: Franson's book Freedom, which I read it was great. I 212 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: love Jonathan Fransen. But Jodi Picole, who wrote House Rules, 213 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: My Sister's Keeper, she's a very best selling author. She 214 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: makes a lot of money off of her books. But 215 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: nevertheless she tweets n Y T New York Times raved 216 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: about Franson's new book, is anyone shocked? Would love to 217 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: see the n Y t rave about authors who aren't 218 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: white male literary darlings, And oh my goodness, I remember 219 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: when that happened and it set off this online fire storm. Yeah. 220 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: And Jennifer Weiner, who wrote Good in Bed and In 221 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,359 Speaker 1: Her Shoes other books like that joined in the conversation, 222 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: and she said, I think it's a very old and 223 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: deep seated double standard that holds that when a man 224 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: writes about family and feelings, it's literature with a capital L, 225 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: but when a woman considers the same topics, it's romance 226 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: or a beach book. In short, it's something unworthy of 227 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: a serious critics attention. And they really took the conversation onward, 228 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, who makes the money and who 229 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: is the critical success and a lot of times both 230 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: of them are men. Yeah, And the the idea that, uh, 231 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,839 Speaker 1: you know, a book written by a woman is going 232 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 1: to inherently possibly be considered differently to a critic also 233 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: goes along with that whole marketing thing of well, how 234 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: are these books even being packaged and sold? And while 235 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: all this is going on. Just as another example, uh, 236 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: Deborah copecan Cogan writing over the Nation about her own 237 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: experience and is more like horror stories really with the 238 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: publishing world said there's a reason j. K. Rowling's publishers 239 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: demanded that she used initials instead of Joe Anne. It's 240 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: the same reason Marian Evans used the pen name George Elliott. 241 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: The same reason. Robert Southey, then England's poet Laureate, wrote 242 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: to Charlotte Bronte, literature cannot be the business of a 243 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: woman's life, and it ought not to be, basically saying 244 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: that in order to get the respect, then you know, 245 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: maybe you need to cloak some femininity even in your name. 246 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: If it comes to that. Well, I mean, if we're 247 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: going to talk about that kind of issue and you know, 248 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: things being taken seriously, perhaps we should have a sidebar 249 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: and talk about a recent issue that Vice magazine ran 250 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: into with women literary figures O mercy. This was I 251 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: you know, I run across Vice every now and then, 252 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: and I mean I get it, Vice, I get you. 253 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: I've gotten you for a long time. But and I 254 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: never want to get riled by Advice because I feel 255 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: like as soon as I get riled about something that's 256 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: in Vice, or or think to myself, oh, distasteful vices one, 257 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: you know, there's a hipster taking a shot of whiskey 258 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: at a bar, you know, and laughing about me. Um. 259 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: But Vice had to publicly apologize, probably the first public 260 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: apology even that it was kind of a weak one 261 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: that they've ever issued, because it put out its Women 262 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: in Fiction issue, and in the back of it there 263 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: was a fashion spread entitled last Words, which depicted famous 264 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: authors including Sylvia Plath, Virginia Wolf, and Dorothy Parker, all 265 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: killing themselves, all all mid suicide, wearing wearing clothes that 266 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: they had on, and the sidebars calling out the labels 267 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: and where you could get them. And I mean, I'll 268 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: just say they weren't even well styled, but um, I mean, 269 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: and the the Internet rightly freaked out about it, saying 270 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: this is disgusting first of all, like you are depicting 271 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: the suicide of real people. But I felt like Michelle Dean, 272 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: writing over in New York Magazine, made some really insightful 273 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: points about it. She said, suicide is fair game for commentary, 274 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: regardless of how many others on the Internet crite otherwise 275 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: when seeing this spread. But slouching, indifference and sloppiness do 276 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: not a real sensation make to address these women's lives 277 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: and pain. The work should at least be as smart 278 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: as those featured. And I felt like that bit about slouching, 279 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: indifference and sloppiness really still gets at the heart of 280 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: this larger conversation that is happening among women writers. Well. Also, 281 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: I think there's an issue of Jennifer Weiner brought this 282 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: up to kind of the fact that men's books, like 283 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: like Frandsen's books, can you know their literature with the 284 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: capital L versus the family books, like she said, And 285 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: there's something to men's books that just become universal. You know, 286 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: you write some epic family saga story and it's taken universally, 287 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: everybody feels welcome to read it. But there's something about 288 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: maybe a woman writing a family saw aaga that maybe 289 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: has a woman's back on the cover, and people are like, oh, 290 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: that's just like a just like a beach read about 291 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: family stuff. Yeah, it's it's it's often more niche, it's 292 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: a soft cell. It's chick lit or something. We did 293 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: an episode on chick lit a long time ago. And 294 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: while there are definitely books that focused on you know, 295 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: women meeting men and having martinis and running on beaches 296 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: and such, and that's totally fine too, UM, but it's uh, 297 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: I think it sometimes can do a disservice for UM 298 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: writers at large. Well. But also there are other people, 299 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 1: it's not just the general population who maybe doesn't take 300 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: women writers or women's novels seriously. There's also the whole 301 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: issue of reviewing books, because you know, if if you 302 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: haven't been at the bookstore and a while, you're not 303 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: keeping up with what Amazon's telling you you should read like, 304 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, you might pick up a magazine, newspaper, or 305 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: internet review about books. And a lot of studies have 306 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: pointed out that the New York Times Book Review mostly 307 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: mostly reviews white dudes. Yeah. VITA, which is an organization 308 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 1: that focuses on women in literary arts and a couple 309 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: of years ago, started up a statistical tally of things 310 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: like the number of books written by women that are 311 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: reviewed in places like New York Times Book Review, also 312 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 1: uh the number of female journalists featured in magazines, etcetera. 313 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:37,239 Speaker 1: And in their tally, they found that of all the 314 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: authors reviewed in the publications that it tracks, and it's 315 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: high level publications like New York Times Book Review, nearly 316 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 1: three fourths were men. So sigh, yeah. And the Fairness 317 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: and Accuracy in reporting two thousand eight report on this topic, 318 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: they looked at the New York Times Book Review from 319 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: March two thousand eight to January and found that of 320 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 1: the US authors, and this is niche of political books, 321 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: were non Latino whites. And I know that it's not 322 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: just white men writing books on you know, historical politics 323 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: or current day politics, but it, I mean, that is 324 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: something interesting to point out because a lot of the 325 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: Times reviews like that, especially from those high level publications, 326 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: are what drives people to go pick up that book. Well, 327 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: and racial diversity too is something that we're not really 328 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: addressing in this podcast, but it's something that other authors 329 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 1: have brought up in this whole conversation of saying, yeah, yeah, 330 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: women writers too, but hey, guess what writers of color 331 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: also exist, and we get even more of a short 332 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: shrift than probably white women like a Jodi Picole. I mean, no, nothing, 333 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: absolutely nothing against Jodi Picole, but um, you know there 334 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: it goes down even even deeper than just a gendered issue. 335 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: But go back to gender. Meg Wallets are talked about 336 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: this in the New York Times book review actually in 337 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 1: March of and she brought up that issue of the 338 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: book jacket. She said, look at some of the jackets 339 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 1: of novels by women, Laundry hanging on a line, a 340 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: little girl in a field of wild flowers, like the 341 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: Carson mccullor's book that I'm reading right now, a pair 342 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: of shoes on a beach, or a single hiking boot, 343 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: perhaps an empty swing on the porch of an old 344 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: yellow house. Compare these with the typeface only jacket of 345 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: Chad Hardback's novel The Art of Fielding, or the jumbo 346 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: lettering on the corrections. Such covers, according to a book 347 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: publicist I spoke to, Meg Waltz or Rights, tells the reader, 348 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: this book is an event. Yeah, And I can totally 349 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,719 Speaker 1: see what she means by that. I you know, I 350 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: am really drawn to books with strong, bold covers. I 351 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: I tend to like that, that that look of a 352 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: novel that has like the faded wild flowers on the cover. 353 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: I'm like, if there, if there's an empty rocking chair, 354 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: I'm probably gonna keep walking. Probably so and so, you know, 355 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: covers like the Corrections I find really interesting to look at, 356 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: Like and the cover of um and this will take 357 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: switch us switch our gears a little bit. But the 358 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: cover of Like a Visit from the Goon Squad, which 359 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: though was in fact written by a lady, it just 360 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: happened to also have a strong graphic cover like some 361 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: of those other books we mentioned. Yeah, Jennifer Egan's book 362 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: Visit from the Goon Squad is often cited as an 363 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: exception to this rule because it is very kind of 364 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 1: linear and straightforward type of design. Whereas as Emily Temple, 365 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: writing over at Flavor Wire, who looked at the gendered 366 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: cover stuff when she read that Meg Walletzer piece in 367 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: New York Times, and she took a group of books, 368 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: some written by men and some written by women, and 369 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: found that for books like Jeffrey Genity Is the marriage 370 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: plot ar to Fielding by Chad Hardback that we mentioned, 371 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: the Tragedy of Arthur by Arthur Phillips, Freedom by Jonathan Franzen, 372 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: i q eighty four by Haruki Murakami, and The Pale 373 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: King by David foster Ballas she said, they all had 374 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,239 Speaker 1: things in commons such as big block efonts, lots of 375 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: white and blue and neutral covers, and even the ring 376 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: on the marriage plot almost looks masculine. It looks more 377 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: like a wedding band. I thought it was a great 378 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: The writers who brought up the cover of the marriage 379 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: plot had great things to say. And one of the 380 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: points that I really enjoyed was because I I love 381 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: Jeffrey ugenitys and I loved his book, The Marriage Plot, 382 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: But one of the writers that we looked at did say, like, 383 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: all right, that's a man has a strong, bold cover. 384 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: But if it had been written by a woman, if 385 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: a woman had written a book by the name of 386 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: the Marriage Plot, what kind of cover would they have 387 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: given that? And would anyone have read it? You know? Like, 388 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: I mean, Jeffery Ugenitys is a wonderful writer, and so 389 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: I think regardless of what his cover looks like, people 390 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: are going to pick up his books. But it was 391 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: that question of, like, I mean, are people just gonna 392 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: walk by a book about marriage or so they assume 393 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: by a woman. Well, and you still often up the 394 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: funt even though the script is a little bit uh seraphi. 395 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: But you soften it up a little bit, and you 396 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 1: make it a diamond ring instead of a wedding band, 397 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: and you put the outline of a bride in a veil, 398 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: and it's instead of Jeffrey Eugenitys, it's January Eugenities. What 399 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: is the female equivalent of Jeffrey Jessica Jessica Eugenities, Jennifer Jenugenities, 400 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: Jenny Okay, a lady named Eugenities, And yeah, it's like 401 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: a completely different experience. Um, but with the the group 402 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 1: of female written books that Emily Temple pulled together. She 403 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: looked at The Tiger's Wife by Tea oh Brett, all 404 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: of kidder Dge by Elizabeth Strout, swamp Landia by Karen Russell, 405 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: a Visit from the Goon Squad, the Exception to the Rules. 406 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,199 Speaker 1: We talked about the Buddha and the Attic by Julie 407 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: Otsuka and The Help by Catherine Stockett, and she said 408 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: that they were typified by more seraph's golden yell, low coloring, 409 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: more delicate lettering in general, and more illustration. I mean, 410 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: but why do you think that is? Why do you 411 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: think that a publisher can take or will take a 412 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: family saga written by a woman and make it more 413 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: flowery script than if a man writes a family saga 414 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: which becomes bold lettering and primary colors. Well, I wanted 415 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: to try to find whether any book designers had something 416 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: to say about this, because I don't think that it's 417 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: it's not some conspiracy. We're not trying to comclaim some 418 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: conspiracy that all book jacket designers are out to make 419 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: sure that women's books never get read or are only 420 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 1: read in chick lit book groups, which you're fine too, um, 421 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 1: but I did find a two thousand seven article in 422 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 1: Poets and Writers that talked about the author's often limited 423 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: role in book jacket design. And they interviewed Karen Temple, 424 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: who was the founder of the site Readaville, and she 425 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: noted how quote unquote list women's fiction, i e. Chick lit, 426 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: which I mean you wouldn't call something like a visit 427 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: from the goon squad midlist women's fiction, but just speaking 428 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: about like uh more of the kind of what would 429 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,959 Speaker 1: you say, just like run of the mill books written 430 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: by women, she said, it's fallen victim to book jacket tropes, 431 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: kind of in the same way that science fiction is 432 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: often treated with their very science fiction a types of designs. 433 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: And she says, you take a really lovely stock photo, 434 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: especially a landscape or a cityscape, legs or shoes, you 435 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: superimpost some very pretty star up and there's that word again, 436 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: letter space type preferably white. Thereupon it's become every bit 437 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: as cliche as any other genres covers. So maybe there's 438 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 1: a little bit of laziness going on. Maybe it's just 439 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: you know that it has become such a strong and 440 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: probably well selling um genre, that whole midlist women's fiction 441 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: thing that maybe publishers just kinda up but all together 442 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: and send it out. I don't know. Well, you know, 443 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 1: we talked earlier about um, you know, reviews driving sales, 444 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: but designer Terry Juliana Long for Indie Reader does confirm that, hey, 445 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: people are out there judging books by their cover and 446 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: that solid writing, descriptions and reviews do count. But excellent 447 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: book jackets can also snag sales. Excuse me, And I 448 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 1: know I'm I'm not guilty of it because it's not 449 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: something to be ashamed of, but I've picked up some 450 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: really attractive looking book covers and bookstores that I might 451 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: not otherwise have well, And I wonder if a piece 452 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: of all of this is the fact that, you know, 453 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: women do comprise a majority of book buyers. Um. I 454 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: don't have the statistics in front of me, but that's 455 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: a pretty well accepted facts. I mean, you can if 456 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: you break it down by genre, then you then you 457 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: have some differences, but overwhelmingly women do tend to buy 458 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 1: more books than men do. So maybe what's going on 459 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: is in the design process they're saying they're going to say, hey, 460 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,959 Speaker 1: who is our number one customer? Most likely it's going 461 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: to be a woman. What a lady's like laundry on 462 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: a line and a breeze, I don't know, and a 463 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: a vase full of flowers in the window. And I'm 464 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, 465 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: but I'm a lady who does like some really good 466 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: graphic design. And I'm sure you do like flowers in 467 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,199 Speaker 1: the vase in the window. I like real flowers in 468 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: a vase on a window. Um. But I do hope 469 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: that we hear from some authors who may have gone 470 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: through this process of getting a book published and getting 471 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: a jacket designed, especially if they're doing it with a 472 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: publishing house, because it seems like, unless you are an 473 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: a list writer, your hand in that and even selecting 474 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 1: the title might not be all that much. You might 475 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: get a book sold, and then I hope you like 476 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: what it looks like on the outside. And the thing is, though, 477 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: the argument that kind of gets swept into all of 478 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: this that I don't think is valid is the idea that, oh, well, 479 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: we're just complaining that well regarded women writers don't exists. 480 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: No that's absolutely not true, and that's not what we're saying. 481 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: I mean, do we need to go through a list 482 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: of awesome women writers just to prove it we have some? 483 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: And also I do think that the argument that well, 484 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 1: men just aren't reading books by or about women is 485 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: also a flimsy one. Over at Slate, Esther Bloom actually 486 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: took on that idea that you know, men don't want 487 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: to read books by or about women, and she says, 488 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: really blame the publishers, which brings it all back to 489 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: this whole cover flip challenge thing and the marketing angle 490 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: to begin with. And she writes, because publishers, editors and 491 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: agents fear that men won't read books by women, they 492 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: encourage people like J. K. Rowling to hide behind gender 493 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: obscuring initials or pen names, and thus they exacerbate the problem. 494 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: A male seeming author of a well loved book doesn't 495 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: help the change the perceptions of a male reader, just 496 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: as a child who atees spinach doesn't come to love 497 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: it when it's blended skillfully into his cupcake. And the 498 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: whole marketing thing doesn't doesn't help much either. I don't know. 499 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be curious to hear from readers and listeners 500 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: on this, because there were some points when I was 501 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: reading this and I was thinking, maybe this is too 502 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: much out of nothing, but then hearing directly from authors 503 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: who have gone through this process, because it's not just 504 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: about the cover, but it's how it's the cover process, 505 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: it's the entire publication process, marketing, reviewing, actually breaking into 506 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: the upper echelons of literary circles, which you know, I'm 507 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: sure as herculean effort, right, And we we sided Meg 508 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: Waltzer earlier, but she pointed out, I mean, it was 509 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: her opinion, but she says that some, particularly men, see 510 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: most fiction by women is one soft, undifferentiated math that 511 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: has little to do with them, and I think part 512 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: of that could be the covers. I mean, book blogger 513 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: Dan wag Stuff said that the assumption is that women 514 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: only want to read certain kinds of stories, and that 515 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: men don't want to read books by women at all, 516 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: That they tend to be pink, that the pictures tend 517 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: to be pretty and domesticated and completely inoffensive and wistful, 518 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: and so yeah, I think that does contribute to the 519 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: idea that they are all one kind of soft mass 520 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: where if you actually looked into them deeper. I mean, 521 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: there are plenty, As we said, there are plenty of 522 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: incredible female authors out there, and it would be a 523 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: shame that something like the book cover just put people off. Yeah, 524 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I think there should definitely be that variety. 525 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm thinking about this book called The dud 526 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: Avocado that was written I think in the forties or fifties, 527 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: and it was recently re released, and the cover was 528 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: this bright, cheerful green and this picture of a girl 529 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: probably I don't know, ninetior twenty years old, very prototypical 530 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: girl book. But as soon as I saw it, I 531 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: loved it. I immediately wanted to read it because I 532 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: was like, I know exactly what this book is going 533 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: to be, going to be about a zany girl trying 534 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: to figure life out. And then it's sometimes that it's 535 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: exactly what I want, and it was, and I just 536 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: felt like when I was reading this stuff, I kept 537 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: thinking about that. I was like, but that's totally fine, 538 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: you know. But contrast that with the Bell Jar and 539 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: having like a very similar cover image for that, where 540 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: it's like a girl about nineteen or twenty looking like 541 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: she's trying to figure out life maybe zany. Well, I 542 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: mean that goes back to that whole argument that that 543 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: one professor made about like it's it's one thing to 544 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: take a book about a z any girl finding her 545 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: way through life and put that cheerful, you know, cookie 546 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: cover on it. But then you take a book like 547 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: The Bell Jar or The Feminine Mystique and you put 548 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: like a flowery, uh, super girly makeup cover on it, 549 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: and it's like, well, no, but that's what they're talking about, 550 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: not being But you know, I would like to toss 551 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: this fact out though, um, just as a nod to 552 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: the fact that we don't think there's some like massive 553 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: conspiracy trying to keep women authors down. Especially this is 554 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: about like women fiction writers. For instance, the New York 555 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: Times did vote Beloved by Tony Morrison as the best 556 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: novel of the past twenty five years. It's fantastic. So 557 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: we got that, and we got Jennifer Egans a visit 558 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: from the goon Squad, and like a million other books 559 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: by women. And I'm not saying that we should only 560 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: write read books by women or you know, men's books 561 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: are over appreciated. I love male authors as well, but 562 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: there is that attitude that women writers aren't as serious 563 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,959 Speaker 1: that we still do have to overcome. And I'm not 564 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: they're bad male authors. They're bad female authors. I've read 565 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: them books. I've read good and bad books by both genders. 566 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,719 Speaker 1: But uh, I think there are some attitudes out there 567 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: that we can overcome. Yeah, well, I know we've got 568 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: some librarians who listen, booksellers, writers who want to hear 569 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: from all of you, people who are might be a 570 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: little closer to the industry, really curious to get your 571 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: thoughts and all. So for just listeners, in terms of 572 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: your beach reading, what are you reading and when you're 573 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: picking out a book, does the cover make a difference? 574 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: Do you judge your books by their cover? Or are 575 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: all of your books e books and so you don't 576 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: care or notice what the cover looks like. That is 577 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: such a good point too that we didn't even bring up. Well, 578 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: now we will leave it to our readers to educate us, okay, 579 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: or you know you're you're our listeners, but you are 580 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: also readers. Yes, we do a very a very literate audience, 581 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: I know. So I can't wait to hear from everybody 582 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: on this mom stuff at Discovery Dot com is where 583 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: you can email us. You can tweet us your thoughts, 584 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: that mom stuff podcast, or send us a Facebook message. 585 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: And we've got a couple of messages to read. But 586 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: before we do that, we're going to take a quick 587 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: break and we'll get right back. And now back to 588 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: our letters. And these are a couple of messages we've 589 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: gotten from Facebook. Bonnie Rights, I'm thirty and just about 590 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: to undergo a prophylactic mystectomy, and I was wondering if 591 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: you could do a podcast on the Brocco one into 592 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: gene variants. Those are, by the way, known as the 593 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: breast cancer jeans. And she says this gene is in 594 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 1: fact patented, although update the Supreme Court did a rule 595 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: that you cannot patent gene, so it is no longer patented. 596 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: She says, knowing this information is really crucial information for 597 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: young woman who may have a history a breast cancer 598 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 1: or ovarian cancer in the family. And I wanted to 599 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: read her message because a long, long time ago we 600 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: did an episode on gene patenting focusing on Brocco one 601 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: into gene variants and with the whole news about Angelina 602 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: Jolie's preemptive mostectomy for instance, and the developments with Jeene patenting. 603 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: I wanted to reach out to listeners to say, Hey, 604 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: do you all want an update episode on the breast 605 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 1: cancer gene and if so, we'll do it. But we 606 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: gotta hear from you, So tweet us, Facebook us, send 607 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: us a telegram. Actually, you can't send alegrams anymore, singing telegrams. 608 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: Send us up a jamagram yea. But yeah, if you 609 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: want to hear an update episode on the breast cancer jeans, 610 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: just let us know and we'll do it. Okay. Well, 611 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: speaking of books and librarians and such, and the librarian 612 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,240 Speaker 1: wrote to us and said, in response to the podcast 613 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: about gender and financial literacy slash illiteracy, I have a 614 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,879 Speaker 1: fantastic book recommendations for listeners of any gender that wants 615 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,359 Speaker 1: straightforward information about how investments work and more importantly, how 616 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: to make your money work for you. It's called The 617 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: Bogelhead Guide to Investing by Taylor Laramore, Mel Lindauer, and 618 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: Michael L. Book. The title is certainly not as sparkly 619 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: as some of the titles mentioned in the podcast, but I, 620 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: as I imagine many others also do prefer that these 621 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 1: financial concepts be explaining accurate, real world scenarios as opposed 622 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: to being compared somehow to buying shoes. I know, seriously, 623 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 1: and I know me too, Okay, so she continues. The 624 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: advice is met for people of all income Braggetts, and 625 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: it has certainly helped me understand where my money goes 626 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: and how to create a strong financial plan. It's available 627 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: on Amazon and bookstores and of course from Anne at 628 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: her library. And she includes a PS that I enjoy 629 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: because I get really angry when strange men on the 630 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: street or on the train or really anywhere tell me 631 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: to smile, because get out of my face. What is 632 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: your problem? I just wrote a blog post about that recently, 633 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: which people good bond and O how stuff works blog well, 634 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: she says. PS. I also have a topic suggestion which 635 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,800 Speaker 1: we welcome all of your topic suggestions, she says. Street harassment. 636 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: There's been a lot of buzz lately about artists Tatiana 637 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,280 Speaker 1: faz Laaliza Day and her stop telling women to smile 638 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,320 Speaker 1: Gorilla campaign. I think it would be interesting to explore 639 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: why men harass women on the street, Gender differences in 640 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: street harassment, in the debate between it being harmless or threatening, 641 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 1: and degrading. Well, I've got good news. There's a podcast 642 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: of about it and the title is why do Men 643 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: cat Call? I Believe? And we talk about Hollowback, which 644 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: is a great organization that has really taken on street 645 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: harassment and empowered women to stop street harassment and its 646 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: tracks safely. So maybe I'll post a link to that episode. 647 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: Um and yeah, thanks to everyone who's written in. We 648 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: love your suggestions. Keep them coming. Mom Stuff at discovery 649 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: dot com is where you can email us. You can 650 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Like us 651 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: on Facebook, leave us a message there. You can follow 652 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: us on Tumbler as well. It's stuff Mom Never Told 653 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,760 Speaker 1: You dot tumbler dot com. And finally you can watch 654 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: us as well. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. We come 655 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: up with new stuff or times a week. We are 656 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 1: at YouTube dot com slash stuff Mom Never Told You 657 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 1: and don't forget you. Subscribe for moralness than thousands of 658 00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 1: other topics, does it housetof works dot com tw