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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt. Our colleague Nola is on an adventure,

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Speaker 1: but will be returning shortly. They called me Ben. We

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Speaker 1: are joined as always with our super producer Paul. Mission

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Speaker 1: Control deconds. Most importantly, you are you, You are here,

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Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you

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Speaker 1: to know. We are quite excited about today's episode. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's um it's reminding me, Matt. It's often said that

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Speaker 1: there is a great crime at the heart of every

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Speaker 1: great fortune. And it's also often said that two sorts

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Speaker 1: of laws exist who sets of laws, One for the

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Speaker 1: very very wealthy, one for everyone else, all the other schmucks.

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Speaker 1: But in today's episode, we're diving deep into a story

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Speaker 1: that doesn't often get told until now. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you're a longtime listener to the show, you know about

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Speaker 1: things like Project paper Clip, the secret program Uncle Sam

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Speaker 1: used to bring Nazi regime scientists to the US. But

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Speaker 1: that's only part of a much, much larger story. What

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Speaker 1: about the other secrets, What about particularly all those business

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Speaker 1: leaders in Germany, the individuals, the families, the dynasties who

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Speaker 1: made fortunes off the atrocities of the Third Reich, And

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Speaker 1: what about their heirs? What about the folks who inherited

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Speaker 1: these fortunes. This is the question our guest journalist and

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Speaker 1: author David DeJong explores in his newest book, Nazi Billionaires,

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Speaker 1: The Dark History of Germany's Wealthiest Dynasties. David, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us today. Thank you, gentlemen for

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Speaker 1: having me. It's a pleasure. We're very excited to be

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Speaker 1: speaking with you. Uh, we've read through much of your book. Then,

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Speaker 1: I believed you've read the entire thing, U and we've

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Speaker 1: we've watched interviews, we've talked about Nazis since we were

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Speaker 1: making videos back in two thousand ten. That it's just,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you make videos about the unknown and

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Speaker 1: mysteries and strange things. The Third Reich has plenty of

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Speaker 1: material to go into, but we we have never explored

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Speaker 1: the fortunes that were built off of things that occurred

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Speaker 1: during the Third Reich's reign. So we can't thank you know,

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Speaker 1: for doing the research for writing this book. Uh, I think,

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Speaker 1: what Ben, let's just let's talk about, like, David, how

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Speaker 1: did you get into this? How did you begin this

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Speaker 1: investigation and journey. I started looking into these families at

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Speaker 1: when while I was still at Bloomberg News, I was

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Speaker 1: working as a reporter in New York. I was actually

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Speaker 1: hired in late eleven on his new team, which investigated

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Speaker 1: hidden wealth and billionaire fortunes, and the team it started

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Speaker 1: right around when Occupy Wall Street ended, So there was

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Speaker 1: this really you know, it's basically the start of this

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Speaker 1: of this narrative of the one percent versus I mean,

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Speaker 1: since then it's really become the zero point one percent

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Speaker 1: versus pot nine percent. And I was hired as one

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Speaker 1: of the of the reporters to cover the America's but

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Speaker 1: I was soon asked after a couple of months too

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Speaker 1: to cover the German speaking countries because I am Dutch.

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Speaker 1: I'm a native Dutchman, and I you know, I tell

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Speaker 1: a little bit about in the book about how I

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Speaker 1: had this sort of reluctance to cover German fortunes or

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Speaker 1: German or German business in general. You know, I'm probably

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Speaker 1: I was born in the late eighties, probably the last

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Speaker 1: of the generation which grew up with this kind of

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Speaker 1: I call it in the book playful antagonism that I

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Speaker 1: had visa feed Germany, the Germans, you know, because of

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Speaker 1: the brutal occupation that that that happened, you know in

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Speaker 1: the Netherlands between May and May, which also affected my family. Uh.

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Speaker 1: My grandfather was you know, he tried to sail to

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Speaker 1: England with his best friend, was very avid sailor um

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Speaker 1: and to join the Royal Air Force. In one and

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Speaker 1: the second time his boat was blown back to shore.

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Speaker 1: They were arrested by German soldiers and they were sentenced

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Speaker 1: as political prisoners to two year forest labor in the

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Speaker 1: rural area in Germany just over the border. And you know,

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Speaker 1: my grandfather was six six ft seven. He came out

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Speaker 1: weighing ninety pounds and luckily, you know, he survived. He

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Speaker 1: come valesced in the sanatorium in Switzerland and got married

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Speaker 1: to my grandmother, and my mother soon was born after.

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Speaker 1: And then as for my my father's parents were Jewish,

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Speaker 1: and as were my great grandparents and my grandfather he

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Speaker 1: had an amster them for three and a half years

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Speaker 1: after his textile factories that the Dutch German border work

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Speaker 1: were seized, and my grandmother was you know, she was Swiss.

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Speaker 1: She was Swiss, and she fled with my my aunt

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Speaker 1: was three at the time and a companion to the

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Speaker 1: French Swiss border, and they were arrested by the Gestapo,

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Speaker 1: by by the shop bishop or the Nazi Germany secret police,

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Speaker 1: and miraculously a Gestapo officer to pity on them and

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Speaker 1: let them and to pity on my aunt and my

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Speaker 1: grandmother and let them off, and then they fled over

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Speaker 1: the mountains into Switzerland and into safety. But her companion

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Speaker 1: was deported to too Soviet boy and was murdered. So

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Speaker 1: it was you know, it's a miracle that I am

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Speaker 1: here today. And I was very much especially by my

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Speaker 1: maternal grandfather. He lived and described in a book. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he lived in a very small village in the south

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Speaker 1: of the Netherlands where all the Germans would always go

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Speaker 1: every summer to to to to go to on beach

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Speaker 1: holidays um nearby, and you know, then he would always

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Speaker 1: quit um you know, another invasion incoming. And he he

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Speaker 1: kind of raised me always that he was kind of

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Speaker 1: my hero. My maternal funding income raised this idea, you know,

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Speaker 1: don't don't take the Germans too seriously, because they take

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Speaker 1: themselves too seriously. But I came, actually came to take

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Speaker 1: them very seriously, particularly you know, when I was asked

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Speaker 1: to cover big business and finance in Germany, because you

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Speaker 1: know what I what I quickly found is that particularly

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Speaker 1: large brands like BMW and Porsche, they maintain these global

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Speaker 1: foundations in the name of their founders or their or

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Speaker 1: their saviors or the patriarchs, and they celebrate these men's

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Speaker 1: business successes, but they do not mention anywhere that they're

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Speaker 1: conducting philanthropy global philanthropy in the name of men who

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Speaker 1: committed war crimes, are men who were members of the

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Speaker 1: s S. And that is actually the reason why I

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Speaker 1: wrote a book, not because of my personal relation to

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Speaker 1: the story or because of my personal background. No, it's

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Speaker 1: because I was just stunned by after so called reckoning

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Speaker 1: as they as they see it occurred that they're still

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Speaker 1: doing the they're they're still maintaining these you know, doing

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Speaker 1: these fib You know, not only it's not only foundations,

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Speaker 1: it's global head corps, corporate headquarters, it's it's journalism prizes

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Speaker 1: in the name of these men without being transparent about

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Speaker 1: about the bad things they've done on these other writing

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Speaker 1: a business success, and I think that is that is,

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Speaker 1: you know, leaving out that history is unacceptable to me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's deeply unethical, to say the least. And that's something

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Speaker 1: that really stuck with us when we were diving into

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Speaker 1: the stories here, because you know, I do have to

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Speaker 1: admit there's a bit of dark humor with Bloomberg saying Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: go go cover this, and you having to say, do

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Speaker 1: you have any idea, well, what you're asking me to do?

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Speaker 1: And I could sense that, I could sense that reticence,

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Speaker 1: but it did it did pay off in a way

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Speaker 1: that many, especially many Americans, are not aware of. You know,

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Speaker 1: many people in the US know of some business stories

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Speaker 1: from that time in Nazi Germany, you know, like Coca

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Speaker 1: Cola inventing Fanta, or ib MS disturbingly cozy relationship with

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Speaker 1: the Third Reich. Yeah, and the list goes on. But

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Speaker 1: people here often think of those relationships as singular, isolated

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Speaker 1: moments in business history, isolated from the current day. And

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Speaker 1: I want to know if that is an attitude or

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Speaker 1: a perspective that you have encountered in Europe in the US,

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Speaker 1: or maybe even in Germany itself. Is there an active,

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Speaker 1: coordinated effort in some cases to sanitize history for lack

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Speaker 1: of a better term, I mean, here's this kind of

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Speaker 1: tried and true mefort, at least in Germany, where you

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Speaker 1: know a media scout, you know, it's like clockwork. Every

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Speaker 1: year some media scot has kind no breaks about a

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Speaker 1: famous German business dynasty with global business interests for the

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Speaker 1: most part, and you know, some investigative reporter in Germany

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Speaker 1: digs up there they're hidden activities of Patriarch X, you know,

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Speaker 1: who was a committed Nazi party member who use mass

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Speaker 1: force and slave labor, who mass produced weapons, who you know,

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Speaker 1: acquired companies stolen from Jews or acquired shares far below

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Speaker 1: market value because people were desperate to leave to flee

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Speaker 1: Jewish people were desperate to flee Nazi Germany, or expropriated

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Speaker 1: companies of people who were in a livelhood of people

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Speaker 1: who were living in occupied territories. So what then happens

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Speaker 1: are to the responses? Then, Okay, we're going to commission

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Speaker 1: an academic study. It's going to be an independent academic study.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're we're we've we've we've asked a prominent

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Speaker 1: German history professor to to to do this. Him his

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Speaker 1: team as researchers will conduct this and and you know,

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Speaker 1: three or four years later, you know, we will open

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Speaker 1: our archives as well for the first time and three

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Speaker 1: four years lead and then it's silent, you know, and

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Speaker 1: then three or four years later study the studies published

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Speaker 1: X gives one Maya kupa interview um and and about

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Speaker 1: what happens then with the reckoning. I mean, you have

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Speaker 1: a very dense academic study in German that does not

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Speaker 1: reach a wider audience. It remains the story itself, remains

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Speaker 1: contained to Germany. And you know, barely any translations, you know,

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Speaker 1: bar few exceptions, you have very few translations of these

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Speaker 1: studies ever ever produced. And the question that I also

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Speaker 1: have in like a large pictures, who exactly is this

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Speaker 1: reckoning dis reported? Reckoning with right? Because you know, for

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Speaker 1: the most part, the Germans were not see the victims

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Speaker 1: of Germany's own crimes. It were millions and millions of

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Speaker 1: others living in Europe. You know, we're forced into forced

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Speaker 1: or or slave labor um, particularly in Eastern Europe, you know, Poland, Ukraine, Russia,

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Speaker 1: Belarus party taking in some part as well in in

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Speaker 1: the Holocaust too, you know, or or having led concentration

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Speaker 1: camps and in etcetera, or having built them who then

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Speaker 1: is directing with because it never reaches the surviving former

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Speaker 1: force or slave labors or their heirs. Right, they don't

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Speaker 1: read academic German. So then companies like BMW and Porsche

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Speaker 1: can can go on and pretending like nothing has happened.

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Speaker 1: And it is also the sense is that they lean

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Speaker 1: on Germany's collective guilt, right we were all I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, you also to imagine that Germany still, you know,

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Speaker 1: every time one of these business families or one of

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Speaker 1: these massive global companies comes out with a study. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they get inundated with this stuff. You know, you get

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Speaker 1: so in Germany, learning about the third right era is

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Speaker 1: is it's you know, and being confronted with it is omnipresent, right,

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Speaker 1: so it is you know it point Unfortunately, you become

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Speaker 1: I mean I imagined they become desensitized to it, so

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Speaker 1: in a way that you're able to contain these narratives

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Speaker 1: to Germany. And yeah, I'm bringing to a global audience

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Speaker 1: down for the first time when we're glad you're doing that. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you just hit on something that I just want to

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit further about. You kind of you

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Speaker 1: outlined it pretty quickly there, but this is two parts.

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Speaker 1: So first, are there any car manufacturers that don't have

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Speaker 1: a background relationship with the Third Reich? I was just

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Speaker 1: looking through the list in the book and yeah, goodness,

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Speaker 1: yeah no, yeah, but that's kind of a joke question.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but but you just name so many major

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Speaker 1: car manufacturers that are still big players today that did

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Speaker 1: have a background. Let's dive a little deeper into what

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Speaker 1: exactly companies like BMW we're doing during the reign of

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Speaker 1: the third Third Reich to to gain profits and um

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Speaker 1: to make those fortunes that we're talking about. The main

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Speaker 1: family I'm writing about qua who came to control BMW

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Speaker 1: after World War Two. So the patriarch Gunther Quanta and

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Speaker 1: his son Herbert. They they controlled guns, mainly controlled and

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Speaker 1: and operated a massive battery manufacturer and a massive arms manufacturer.

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Speaker 1: And quickly after Hitler sees his power, he starts in

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Speaker 1: secret this massive rearmament push and you know all the

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Speaker 1: industrialists who by the way, and it is also one

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Speaker 1: of the maps and charge of the spell in the book.

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Speaker 1: You know, most of the families I'm writing about, we're

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Speaker 1: already extremely wealthy when Hitler sees power, except for the

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Speaker 1: poor Shapire family who today controls the Volkswagen group, which

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Speaker 1: has Art Porsche. Volkswagen says good to Bentley Lamborghini. So

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Speaker 1: around the largest garn manufacturers in the world. Their wealth

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Speaker 1: really started because of their relation with the Third Reich

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Speaker 1: and because Hitler put the Volkswagen in production, which for

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Speaker 1: non Porsche car design company also ended up taking off

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Speaker 1: in this era. And you know, all of them works

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Speaker 1: already extremely wealthy bar them. And after the big Weronman

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Speaker 1: push starts, billions and billions flow into the coverers of

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Speaker 1: of the industrialists that are producing that we are now

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Speaker 1: producing mass producing weapons. And then you have all these

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Speaker 1: decrees that come out that are issued which you know

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Speaker 1: incrementally takes the assets of Jewish people living in or

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Speaker 1: seizes the companies of Jewish people living in Germany. Of course,

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Speaker 1: once the war breaks out, you have that extended, you know,

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Speaker 1: to Nazi occupied territories as well as you know where

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Speaker 1: because German Men were being called to the front. This

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Speaker 1: mass rounding up of people all across of the men

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Speaker 1: and women all across and teenagers to all across Europe

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Speaker 1: who were then being shipped off or people ordered to

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Speaker 1: forcibly work in factories in all across Germany, as well

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Speaker 1: as slave labor from concentration camp, but from concentration camps

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Speaker 1: later on during the war. So these are really the

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Speaker 1: main components of how these families benefited from the Third Rock,

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Speaker 1: and benefit they did because as you as you established

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Speaker 1: in the recent New York Times article, which which is

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Speaker 1: also a fantastic overview of some of the problems here,

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Speaker 1: as you established you you open with some critical facts

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Speaker 1: about the scope and power of Germans modern automotive industry.

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Speaker 1: Right it is, it is huge. To call it a

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Speaker 1: leviathan is maybe a bit unfair even, but it's not

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Speaker 1: hyperboly the it's not. I think it's a pretty fair description. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: the thing that gets me about this is, and I

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Speaker 1: think it gets Matt you as well, is that for

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Speaker 1: people in the US, there's quite a disturbing comparison to

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Speaker 1: be made between the deification of these titans of industry

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Speaker 1: and their families. And we've got to talk more about

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Speaker 1: those families in a second, But there's there's this clear

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Speaker 1: comparison to be had between the way that parts of

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Speaker 1: the US have deified um Confederate memorials right or officers

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Speaker 1: in the Confederate Army. And I'm wondering, in your opinion,

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Speaker 1: what how would the people of Germany react if there

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Speaker 1: was a movement to you know, take these Nazi sympathizers

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Speaker 1: names off of foundations or to you know, be more

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Speaker 1: transparent about their past. Would they would the German establishment

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Speaker 1: push against this? What would the reckoning be interesting? That's

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Speaker 1: a very interesting question. I think there would be the

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Speaker 1: German establishment, which is embarked art these families I'm writing about,

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Speaker 1: of course, and they are and they're handlers and and

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Speaker 1: and the entire culture around around them, of course don't

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Speaker 1: to too large extent do not do that right. They

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Speaker 1: leave their dark histories out on the websites of the

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Speaker 1: of the global foundation they control through you know, the

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Speaker 1: global brands such as BMW, nportion. But I think the

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Speaker 1: vast majority of Germans would be delighted if they know,

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Speaker 1: if they knew, if they're aware, would be delighted to

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Speaker 1: to you know, either see these companies being pushed to

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Speaker 1: be transparent about it online or or C d C,

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Speaker 1: T c C, these foundations or media prizes or corporate quarters,

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Speaker 1: um renamed. I mean what I write in the s

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Speaker 1: in the New York Times, I say, is what I

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Speaker 1: wrote in New York Times. I say as well, was

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Speaker 1: how you know I lived? I moved for this book.

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Speaker 1: I moved from from from New York to Berlin in

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Speaker 1: late And you know, there is such a awareness and

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Speaker 1: such a new ones and such a such a introspective

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Speaker 1: discussion going on in Germany about this past. And it

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Speaker 1: seems like the most powerful players in Germany do not

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Speaker 1: want to do not want to participate in that. And

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Speaker 1: that is of course very damaging because these families are

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Speaker 1: not only economically powerful, the quality BMW quants are also

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Speaker 1: the largest donors to to the Christian Conservative said Miracle

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Speaker 1: Angela Merkel's party, right um. And and you know there's

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Speaker 1: books people all were worked for cdo politicians. So it's

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Speaker 1: very much this is the total establishment I'm writing about.

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Speaker 1: And and they they clearly do not want to want

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Speaker 1: to engage in this on a global level. At least

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Speaker 1: I want to play Devil's advocate just for a moment.

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Speaker 1: For this I I spent quite a bit of time

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Speaker 1: on some of these foundations websites where You're right, they

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Speaker 1: don't talk about any of these things and the connections,

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Speaker 1: but they do all of them without exception. They have

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Speaker 1: these very lofty goals they've you know, they state things

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Speaker 1: about their missions that like I I love like this,

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Speaker 1: these are great things to try and do and and

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Speaker 1: to work towards and to pour money into. Um. I

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Speaker 1: I just it feels as though there's good work. And

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Speaker 1: specifically I'm looking right now at the BMW Herbert kunt Foundation,

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Speaker 1: uh and I just like what, um what is the goal?

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Speaker 1: What is the goal? I guess in in having foundation

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Speaker 1: like that like really come to terms with their past.

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Speaker 1: It's not the foundation, of course, it's it's it's accompany

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Speaker 1: itself and it's controlling shareholders. And it's quite perverse. In

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Speaker 1: the case of the BMW. Quantz who commissioned is academic

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Speaker 1: study two pousand seven after a critical TV documentary you know,

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Speaker 1: came out on Good jour and Herbert Quantz third rag

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Speaker 1: Past and arch activities and you know, four years day

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Speaker 1: to study is published. Stephan Quanto was one of, together

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Speaker 1: with his sisters, the controlling shareholder of BMW gives this

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Speaker 1: interview to decide Um, one of Germany's leading newspapers, and says,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're not going to rename our headquarters and

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Speaker 1: if you going to Quant, we're not going to rename

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Speaker 1: our media price. And after Herbert Quant, we're not going

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Speaker 1: to rename our foundation. But we will remember them in

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Speaker 1: you know, the with the good and the bad things.

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Speaker 1: But it becomes completely but it never says how they're

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Speaker 1: going to do that, right so in s so what

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Speaker 1: leads to this very perverse situation where in twenty sixteen

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Speaker 1: they they make the BMW foundation Herbert Quant global and

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Speaker 1: make it much larger, and Stefan Stefan Quand and Susanna Klatten,

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Speaker 1: the siblings you know, both give you know, tens of

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Speaker 1: millions of dollars to his foundation and then the motto

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Speaker 1: is inspire responsible leader ship. I mean, you can't make

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Speaker 1: this up in the name of a man who, yes,

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Speaker 1: he said BMW from bankruptcy in ninette, but who also

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Speaker 1: this man you know, who also built or a planned

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Speaker 1: built and and and dismantled a sub concentration camp in

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Speaker 1: Nazi occupied Poland early who had to responsibility over over

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Speaker 1: battery factories in Berlin, where you know, thousands of force

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Speaker 1: and slave laborers were used, including five hundred female slave

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Speaker 1: laborers from concentration camps who helped acquire companies in France

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Speaker 1: sees from Jews and we use at as private estate

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Speaker 1: prisoners of war and forced labor. And to inspire responsible

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Speaker 1: leadership is to be transparent about that history and not

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Speaker 1: to leave that up. You know, the BMW Foundation, I

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Speaker 1: asked them and they said, well, we are only concerned

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Speaker 1: with what what what Herbert Quant did during his ownership

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Speaker 1: of BMW between nine and his death in two Whereas

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Speaker 1: when the spokes the spokesperson for seven Quanta, Susanna Clatter,

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Speaker 1: when they suddenly replaced part of the biography on the

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Speaker 1: Herbert Quant Media Price, said oh, this year we decided

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Speaker 1: to to replace after ten this year we did, we

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Speaker 1: reviewed our web presence and we decided to go for

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Speaker 1: a more holistic biography of Herbert Quant, which now shows

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Speaker 1: that these And they did that a couple of months

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Speaker 1: after I asked you an ignored question about where they

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Speaker 1: considered the website of the Herbert Kuan Media Price a

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Speaker 1: journalism price, wherefore also of Germany's most high profile journalists

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Speaker 1: serve on if they consider that to be open and transparent.

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Speaker 1: Never got a response on that question. Three months later, overnight,

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Speaker 1: suddenly a new biography footnote that still leaves out a

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Speaker 1: lot of Herbert Quantz Nazi activities, but at least now

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Speaker 1: it's says that that he had to responsibility of these

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Speaker 1: brilliant battery factories. And then you have the spokesman saying,

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Speaker 1: after I con front of him with it, he said, oh,

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Speaker 1: we decided to go for a more holistic view of

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Speaker 1: Herbert que side, which you know, I mean, it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's truly beyond irony, unfortunately, and we were going to

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Speaker 1: take a quick commercial break, but we'll be right back,

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Speaker 1: and we've returned with David de Jon. I want to

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Speaker 1: set up a moment in the very beginning of the

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Speaker 1: book where in you right beautifully about this really disturbing,

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Speaker 1: weird meeting in February. I believe it is. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: so uh this you fulk. You'll have to check out

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Speaker 1: the book yourself to get the actual language here, but

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Speaker 1: there to paraphrase it or to summarize, around two dozen

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Speaker 1: of the absolute most powerful members of Germany's business community

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Speaker 1: meet at Herman Goring's house, and they're under the impression

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Speaker 1: that this new chancellor on the block, this Adolph Hitler guy,

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Speaker 1: is gonna just, you know, explain his policies to the group, right,

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Speaker 1: and uh, then there's a bunch of power plays that

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Speaker 1: happened at the very beginning. It quickly becomes a parent

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Speaker 1: that this is not the meeting these guys thought they

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Speaker 1: were going to. And it ties into a two part

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Speaker 1: question I have and I think we all have it. First,

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Speaker 1: what actually happened at the meeting? How did it shape

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Speaker 1: the events of the future? And then secondly, knowing how

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Speaker 1: that meeting went, is it a good faith argument for

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Speaker 1: these business leaders to have said they were forced to

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Speaker 1: participate or to collaborate with the regime, because you know

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Speaker 1: you have did also later in the work that that

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Speaker 1: was that was something a few people said, right like,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't my choice to do this, I was forced to. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: these are both really good questions. So as to your

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Speaker 1: first question, at the point of the meeting happens on

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Speaker 1: February ninety three, the Nazi Party is dead, broke, They're

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Speaker 1: twelve million Heist mark in debt, and I mean it's

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Speaker 1: like tens of millions in dollars today and they you know,

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Speaker 1: they summoned these businessmen under guise of of having Hitler

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Speaker 1: expence for economic policy, and they're basically being asked to

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Speaker 1: pony up to a election slush fund um to to

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Speaker 1: to finance the election campaign that in the run up

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Speaker 1: to March five. But by the time the election happens,

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Speaker 1: and a week after the meeting, the stock burns down

406
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 1: under the most mysterious of circumstances still hasn't cleared up exactly.

407
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Speaker 1: A show trial happens where a couple of members Communist

408
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: Party members put to trial and are executed, but it's

409
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 1: not clear still to this day who actually set the

410
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 1: ice stuck on fire. So you know, martial law is implemented,

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Speaker 1: and basically all the Communists and all Communists and social

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Speaker 1: Democrats in Germany are arrested. Um and and also during

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Speaker 1: that speech on February twenty February, Gurring and Hitlers say

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Speaker 1: the election of March three is going to be the

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Speaker 1: last election that's going to occur in Germany for the

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Speaker 1: past for the next ten years to a hundred years time.

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Speaker 1: So that ends up being about three million rice mark

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Speaker 1: ends up being paid by various companies and and and

419
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Speaker 1: and industrialists and financiers. But the election itself doesn't really

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Speaker 1: matter anymore because Hitler has already seized power, and and

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Speaker 1: and martial law has been declared. So did that money

422
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Speaker 1: really matter? Probably not that much, because the fire happened,

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Speaker 1: and and and and and law and the rule of

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Speaker 1: law is suspended best degree, but at least as Gobble

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Speaker 1: as Joseph Gobbles, the Nazi propaganda or the Nazi campaign

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Speaker 1: manager and propaganda leader brighton this diary the next day

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Speaker 1: after the meeting, saying, you know, the millions are here.

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Speaker 1: You know, we can put the presses back to work.

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Speaker 1: So at least for one to two weeks, they had

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Speaker 1: they they had money, they had cash on hand, and

431
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: they could run an election campaign. Wow, the rule of

432
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: law was suspended, what was being suspended? And and and

433
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: everything else happens, So that that's that's one. Now as

434
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 1: to your second question, did they have a choice in

435
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 1: the matter? Do you mean generally or at that meeting?

436
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: I mean I mean generally because I believe when we're

437
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 1: talking about facing possible consequences after the conclusion of World

438
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 1: War Two, there were a lot of people saying, you know,

439
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: over the course of this I was forced to do

440
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: these things. Yeah, um, yeah, they had a choice. I mean,

441
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: there's the example of Fritz Teason of you know, Tesson

442
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: Group now teasing Croup. Back then it was the Tecent

443
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: Steell conglomerate and the Croup still conglomerate. And you know,

444
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: Fritz Teason was one of Hitler's earliest backers and um

445
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: of the industrialist because the industrially staid in then in

446
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: the businessman for the business community first was like they

447
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: didn't want anything to do with Hitler. So only when

448
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: he started being electorally successful that there were in the

449
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: crash of October happens on Wall Street and the economy

450
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: is in a big grade propression starts that they're coming

451
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: around to this idea of you know, let's check out

452
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: this Hitler guy. And and Hitler himself and his and

453
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: his entourage had had no connection barely any connections to

454
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: two business people at that point in time. Talking leg

455
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty early Fritz season, one of Hitler's earliest backers,

456
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: already starts backing him in the mid nineteen twenties. He

457
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,479
Speaker 1: ends up he is a member of Parliament at the

458
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: eve of the of of Germany's invasion of Poland in September,

459
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: n ends up voting against the invasion and and fleeing Germany,

460
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: going to Paris, where he has an American journalist write

461
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: in this whitewash book called right a bright whitewash men

462
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: Mark called I paid Hitler and he's arrested, and Fritz

463
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: season is and ends up in a concentration camp. So

464
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: he you know, you're talking about part of Germany's most

465
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: powerful industrialists who just two turns against the regime and

466
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: has as a result, has his um has his still

467
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: conglomerate of course appropriated or put under trusteeship of of

468
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: somebody else. Actually the right hand man, one of the

469
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: main characters in my book. And um, you know you

470
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: so you had it, you know, if you you could

471
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: turn again. They had a choice, absolutely to had a choice.

472
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: Gunter Quant arguably the main character of my book, or

473
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: one of the main characters in my book. You know,

474
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: he writes in his wide Wash memoir that he that

475
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: he that he writes after the war ninety four seven,

476
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,479
Speaker 1: when he's in detention, when he's in American detention, actually

477
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: in Germany. He writes how he could have left to

478
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: North America or South America, where his business partners were

479
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: during that era, but that he stayed put, you know,

480
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: as he puts it himself, to be a loyal soldier

481
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: to you know, to to to protect his his his

482
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: factories and his employees for for you know, to keep

483
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: them running basically, so he admits that, you know, he

484
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: frames himself as a as a you know, as a Nazi,

485
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: as an anti Nazi, and somebody who was a victim

486
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: of the regime, even though he was not one of

487
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: Nazi Germany's largest arms men of lecturers and one of the

488
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: the largest user of force and slave labor, and one

489
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: of the largest beneficiaries of stolen companies, both in Germany

490
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: and occupied territories. I want to I want to stay

491
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: in that realm Um. Many children are taught about the

492
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: Nuremberg Trials, and they're aware of those things and the

493
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: consequences of people who are directly involved in the war,

494
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: especially you know, on the military front. I personally, and

495
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: I think many of the many people out there don't

496
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: know what happened to these corporations and these private interests

497
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: post World War Two that are in Germany. Um, what

498
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: happened to a company like BMW after a war like that.

499
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: There were all these plans, you know, the initial planets

500
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: of Henry Morgantower was a Treasury secretary on the Roosevelt,

501
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: you know, proposed this famous plan initially, and I think

502
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: believe it was n which became known as the Morganto Plan.

503
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: And which is this which basically caused for this the

504
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: complete destruction and dismantling of all of German industry and

505
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: and the summarily execution of you know, not only of

506
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: military and political leaders, but also of of German industrialists.

507
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: Their plan ends up being scrapped, and instead there is

508
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: a focus on as they called it, the five d s,

509
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: which is which is in the in the pot Stem

510
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: Agreement of August, which style in Harry Truman and the

511
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: silent Harry Truman and Clement at least the successor to Roosevelt,

512
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: agree on. You know, the five ds are the natification,

513
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: which is a word you hear a lot nowadays, because

514
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: it's what Vladimir Putin uses to describe what he's doing

515
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: in Ukraine. Just obscene. The word of the the use

516
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: of I mean, what he's doing is horrific. But the

517
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: use of that word the nattification in that context, because

518
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: the natification was became a very flawed legal process that

519
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: saw millions of Germans basically go free for crimes that

520
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: committed under the Nazi during the Third Ride or simple

521
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: Nazi sympathies that they had. So the notification. There's decartilization,

522
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: which means it means the that the cartels, the big

523
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: industrial conglomerates were broken up. Deconcentration which was referred to

524
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: German industry being less concentrated, being less in the hands

525
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: of being less you know, too big to fail, less

526
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: in the hands of the very few. And the militarization,

527
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: which speaks for itself. But in the end, you know,

528
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: the de concentration and decarcialization, they happened with a company

529
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: like Ek Farban, which was the largest chemical company in

530
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: the world at the time. And you know you have

531
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: today you have Buyer and B A. S F. Which

532
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: is today Buyer is one of the large pharmaceutical companies

533
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: in the world and B A. S F is the

534
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: large chemical company in the world who both came out

535
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: of what Eka Farben was. And you know, there's Eka

536
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 1: Farmer for the reb but the rest all the German

537
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: company was basically or the German business basically remained intact.

538
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: There wasn't massive continuation of the power structures e can

539
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: both economic and politically, but mainly economically that remained in

540
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: place because, of course, very soon after World War Two happens,

541
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: the Cold War emerges, and it's in America's best or

542
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 1: deems that in its best interest to have a strong, industrialized,

543
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: democratic West Germany to you as used as a bulwark

544
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: against the encroaching Soviet Union, and for that it needed

545
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: a economically viable West Germany. So German business needed to

546
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: be protected, and German businessmen, um, you know, except for

547
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: the three industrialist trials at New rom Burg, we basically

548
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: let off scot free. I'm seeing so many parallels. It's

549
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: kind of what Ben was already talking about here, parallels

550
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: between what occurred then and then what we're seeing happen

551
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: right now. And you just hit on it just with

552
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,399
Speaker 1: a simple word that's being thrown around right now as

553
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: a as a justification for actions being taken that appear

554
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 1: to be appear to be World War three, like let's say, um, well,

555
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: and it makes me think about the economic sanctions that

556
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: are placed like the weapon of war of choice from

557
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: you know, NATO and and much of the West is

558
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: economic and we're hitting in these places. We're hitting the

559
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: industry right as much as possible. UM. I'm just wondering

560
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: how you after doing all this research, looking at the

561
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 1: profit centers of the Third Reich, looking at these these

562
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: families that you know, you can kind of see it

563
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: mirrored in the oligarchs, Like what what what other mirrored

564
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: situations do you see happening right now? From what you've

565
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: learned in researching this, what you see happening now, of

566
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: course is the main parallel is what's happening with the

567
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 1: Russian oligarchs and their Devil's packed with with Vladimir Putin,

568
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: which was of course the Russian oligarchs for the most part,

569
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: took there, you know, grabbed the their initial assets in

570
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: this in the wild west of the Russia of the

571
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 1: under Boris Yeltsen, and then consolidated their power with you know,

572
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: with this devil's packed Imputin in the early two thousand's

573
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: and have been allowed to operate unfettered globally since and

574
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: are now having this moment of reckoning because of Russia's

575
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: invasion of Ukraine. And of course because of their because

576
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 1: they owe their which or they owe their maintenance of

577
00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: their billion fortune and assets to their relationship with Putin.

578
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: That's the clearest example I can I can. You know,

579
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 1: it's the clear I mean, it is very very you know,

580
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: in a sense, it's very timely. But that's the you know,

581
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: it's it's the clearest example I can figure at the moment.

582
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: Let's pause for a moment. We'll have a word from

583
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: our sponsor, who is hopefully not Krispy Kreme, and we'll

584
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: be back with more from David Dejng. And we're back

585
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: with more from author David. One other thing that's interesting,

586
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: when we're looking at the human element of this um

587
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: you had already, I want to talk a little bit

588
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 1: about process this sort of a meta question. UM. You have,

589
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: as we established earlier, spent years investigating hidden wealth, uh,

590
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: the storage of money or the transit of money for

591
00:37:54,600 --> 00:38:00,919
Speaker 1: billionaires and high net worth individuals. When when you were

592
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: in the midst of the research for Nazi billionaires, were

593
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: you able to apply some of your earlier research processes

594
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: to these cases. I'm just I think we're both interested

595
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: in learning how difficult it was or was not to

596
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: get to the bottom of stories about complicity. You know,

597
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: there are parts of the book where you talk, in

598
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: particular about the extreme privacy that a lot of these

599
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: airs have. In some cases, it feels like you're you're

600
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: searching for answers that don't want to be found. How

601
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: how did you navigate that, especially given that these are

602
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: very powerful people. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm a reporter.

603
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: You know, I'm a reporter first, So I did reporting,

604
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 1: and of course, because I have one air talk to

605
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: me or correspond with me on the records. But other

606
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: than that, I you know, had spokespeople answer part of

607
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: my questions and but for many I also just received

608
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: no comments. I received a few statements here and there,

609
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 1: but that it was about it. So I had to

610
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: report around the subject, and I had to use with

611
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: you know, I had to do multi archive research in

612
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: Europe and the United States. You know, of course, one

613
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: of the main sources of information are all these massive

614
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: academic studies that have been commissioned, but that that you know,

615
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: I have never been really delved into or or or

616
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: used as sources in a journalistic work that brings this

617
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: to a larger audience. I mean, there were many, many

618
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: memoirs poured over, you know, hundreds of thousands of historical documents,

619
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: all of them thankfully that have been digitalized diaries. The

620
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: Diary of Yos of Gobbles was more for the narrative

621
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 1: itself rather than for the larger question. Was it was?

622
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: It was? It was a great so us I mean,

623
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: and then it's just old fashioned reporting. You know, you

624
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: you try to talk to people, but not even the

625
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: people you know, as in question didn't want to talk

626
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: to me, but also nobody around it, you know, lawyers

627
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: or the family offices or you know. It was it's

628
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: also exactly these people are extremely private, so you know,

629
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: it's um you know, a lot of talks. Spoke with

630
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: a lot of historians too in Germany, which was which

631
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: was also important to kind of you know, for the

632
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 1: framing of the entire debate. I have to ask that

633
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: you know, that really stands out because we've spoken in

634
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: the past on this show about how privacy becomes a

635
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: powerful currency all its own, especially in a world where

636
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: everything is connected, right, and one passage I really wanted

637
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 1: to drill into is we're talking about families. I was

638
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: fascinated by how you were able to map out the

639
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: families and the business is that they control or controlled,

640
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: And in particular I was interested in the story of

641
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: the Rieman family where where you say, I mean there,

642
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: I had no idea they're a huge deal. And you

643
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: also kind of at one point you you mentioned that

644
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: there is no public photograph of the Ryman air. Okay,

645
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 1: so that all right? I wanted to make sure it

646
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: wasn't misread. No, no, no, no, you are you are

647
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: very right. So how did you find these families? Like,

648
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: how did you Actually, it's fine, it's it's it's very

649
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: interesting to bring up the Rieman's um because it actually

650
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 1: the first story I ever did on a German business

651
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: family was for Bloomberg, was in April exactly ten years

652
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: ago when Day initiated. When the Riemans or their entity

653
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 1: J A b. Which controls an incredible amount of American

654
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 1: uh fast food and consumer brands. I mean I can go.

655
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 1: I mean there's just so many Krispy Kreme Donuts, you know, yeah,

656
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 1: I mean okay, I mean Krispy Kreame Donuts, Snapple, seven Up, A, Panera, Bread,

657
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: Einstein Bros. Bagels, Current Green, Mountain, Pizs Coffee. I mean

658
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: that's not even half of Coti, which is the makeup.

659
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: I mean there's is incredible. And they built all of

660
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: that up, those of the brands except for Corti in

661
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: the past ten years because they started the executive to

662
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,439
Speaker 1: have a man who made them as richest r today,

663
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: the chairman Peter Harve, who initiated this coffee sorry this yeah,

664
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: this coffee strategy was in but it started with them

665
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: trying to buy with Coti, which I already owned for

666
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: for a long time, buying avon the hair products, the

667
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 1: famous American Well it was the door to door seller,

668
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 1: I think. And that's a she the first time I

669
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 1: ever reported on a secretive German dynasty business dynasty, and

670
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: you know, the Rhemans. I use them at the end

671
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 1: of the book as a counter example to the other

672
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: families in the book because in the they emerge as

673
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:18,879
Speaker 1: as Germany's wealthiest family. Um, you know, I spent years

674
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 1: reporting on them for Bloomberg, reporting on their global deal

675
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: making and reporting on all these other families Nazi history,

676
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: having no idea that the Rhymans itself had the most

677
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: bizarre Nazi history of all of them. So it's it's

678
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: crazy how this story For to me, it's crazy how

679
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: this story can totally full circle with the Rymans because

680
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: in March, just as the as they emerges as Germany's wealthy,

681
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:54,240
Speaker 1: wealthiest family, they have Germany's largest tabloid built on Zontac

682
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: or largest Sunday tabloid built on Sunday. They break this

683
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 1: put show this reporter Maximilian ki Will breaks this massive

684
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,760
Speaker 1: story about the dark history of of of of of

685
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 1: of of certainly as well for his family, the Riemans,

686
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 1: and he goes into how the patriarchs are you know,

687
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: both deeply committed Nazis as members of the doughters to

688
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 1: the SS sit on the municipality in the in the

689
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,760
Speaker 1: in the city where they're from in the south of Germany.

690
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: For they serve for the Nazi Party. You know, their

691
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: company was quite small in comparison to the other families

692
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 1: are right about in the book, but they use hundreds

693
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: of of of force labors and their chemical companies and

694
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: their chemical company called Bankings are I have a particularly

695
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: brutal factory foreman who abuses who you know, abuses force

696
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,879
Speaker 1: labors in the most horrific ways. And you know key

697
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: Will discovered all of that. Now the Riemans, and I

698
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: was quite in touch often with the spokeswoman. Um, you know,

699
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 1: the Riemans had already commissioned a history professor to dig

700
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 1: into that history before the story broke. He was commissioned

701
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: years earlier. So you have their chairman, Peter Harf issued

702
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: his response. And then two months later, this massive story

703
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: in New York Times breaks of the Rhymans of two

704
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: Rhyman heirs for the first time ever is being on

705
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: the record with Katherine ben Holt, was the New York

706
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: Times period chief in Berlin, about how their father, Albert Ryman,

707
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: the committed Nazi, had an affair with a Jewish woman

708
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: whose father was deprayer. We deported, and and and and

709
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 1: and sorry have Jewish woman, a woman of Jewish with

710
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: Jewish roots because her father was Jewish and was murdered

711
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: in the Holocaust. M and how they have this this narrative,

712
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: this very tragic narrative which are only later found much

713
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: later found out about being the heirs of both a

714
00:45:55,239 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 1: you know, being descendants of both a perpetrator and a victim.

715
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: And they end up renaming their foundation in the name

716
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: of their murdered grandfather, Alfred Landecker and funding it in

717
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 1: perpetuity with two D fifty million euros, which is you know,

718
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: three hundred three D and fifty million dollars every ten years,

719
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: and but still being transparent about that. Their patriarchs, you know,

720
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 1: we're total Nazeas and and and anti Semits. And even

721
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 1: their great aunt was married to an s. S Man.

722
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really like they were just truly a

723
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: Nazi family. And then you know Albert Ryman, their their

724
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,479
Speaker 1: their father who was married to a woman but didn't

725
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: have children. For father's three children with this have Jewish

726
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: woman and and you know these airs end up um

727
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: as all of their cousins end up as Germany's wealthiest family.

728
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: So it's it's totally it was total bizarre, totally bizarre story,

729
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, it's it's very tragic and and

730
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: just is surreal and tragic. I mean, I can't I

731
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 1: can't make it and anything else of it. Wow, thank you, Ben,

732
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 1: I did not I did not know that last story.

733
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: I guess from the end of the book there. Wow. Okay, um, David,

734
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: we have a unique thing here where we've just completed

735
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: our first book and it's coming on October check it out.

736
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:28,760
Speaker 1: And we we know the process now of uh, cutting, cutting?

737
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 1: What is it killing your darlings? The expression of like

738
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,879
Speaker 1: having to get rid of certain parts of the book

739
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 1: because they just don't happen to fit in the story

740
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: you're telling. I wonder if there's anything in your research

741
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: that you came across that would you know, just be

742
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: a story that you'd want to tell that you had

743
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: to take out of the book. Oh wow, it's such

744
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: a good question. I had to cut about a hundred

745
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: badges of the I end up cutting about a hundred

746
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: padges of the book. I think everything it's sort is

747
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 1: kind of a laments, But I think everything that I

748
00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 1: wanted in the book ended up in it, because you know,

749
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: the hundred pages that were cut. How great editor in

750
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: the US Alexander little Field and in the UK are

751
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: Abella Pike, and they you know, they gave fantastic structual

752
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 1: feedback which allowed me to rewrite the story in a

753
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: way which made it far more slimmer and better paced.

754
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,919
Speaker 1: And those hundred pages that were cut were really we're

755
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 1: just redundant, was redundant information. So you know, everything that

756
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: I wanted in there ended up being in there. I

757
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: didn't really feel that I had to cut any major darlings,

758
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: which I feel very blessed about. Congratulations, wonderful And with this,

759
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: you know, we have to we have to ask. There's

760
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 1: a sense of mission right to telling stories that some

761
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: powerful people would rather not be told. And I think

762
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: we're both very interested in the audience as well. Today.

763
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: I think we're all interested in hearing what what you

764
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 1: hope comes about as a result of this, of this investigation,

765
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: what you know. I saw an earlier interview, not that

766
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: we were stalking you too much, but saw an earlier

767
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: interview where where someone to ask you what the reaction

768
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,439
Speaker 1: in Germany was like when the book came out, and

769
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: you had said, at least at that time, you had

770
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 1: said the press was a bit silent. Was that the case?

771
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean the book. I mean we're talking

772
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: on April twentie The book came out on April nineteen,

773
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: so yesterday, and an interview was also from yesterday, and

774
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 1: you know so far, I mean, the German translation is

775
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 1: gonna come out May five, and we'll see. I mean,

776
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: it is an extremely fraught subject in Germany. Still, the

777
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 1: press laws in Germany are also not as free as

778
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: they are in the US. Unfortunately. Um, you know, so

779
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: it is very it is very difficult to you know

780
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: what I mean. You can report on it, but it's

781
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: all it's it's all. It's a very it's a very

782
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: fraught narrative in Germany still, of course, and so far

783
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: that the German press has been in silent. We'll see

784
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: what happens when the German translation comes out. Germany, as

785
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: is the US, to their massive countries, massive economies, and

786
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 1: they're very they're insular countries. You know, they look inward,

787
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: you know, because they're so big, they don't really need

788
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,280
Speaker 1: to look at at other you know, and and Germany itself.

789
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: You know, it's not natural, per se to to to

790
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 1: take over what the English language press is is writing.

791
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 1: You know, you saw that with many things that happened,

792
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:43,760
Speaker 1: like when the Built editor in chief was fired only

793
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 1: after Ben Smith of the of then of the New

794
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: York Times still wrote a column about his about his

795
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: you know, his sexual madrassment cases are wrong. I mean,

796
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 1: these were facts were known in Germany for for for

797
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 1: months and months already, you know, they were, but only

798
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,240
Speaker 1: after New York Times because of course, because actual Springer,

799
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 1: the conglomerate that owns Built just bought political for a billion.

800
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: They were realized, Okay, our business enterts are at risk here.

801
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 1: You know, it's a story with wire Card. I don't

802
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,280
Speaker 1: know if you followed that story that the Ft journalist

803
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 1: Dan McCrum reported on incredibly well, um, you know they didn't.

804
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: They accused FT of the German Stock Market Regulator Um.

805
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 1: The accus c FT of basically manipulating and Dan crum

806
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: was was sued in Germany for his reporting, you know,

807
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: until until wire Card went bankrupt and filed for insolvency

808
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: and now the CEO is in pretties on trial and

809
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 1: the CFO is missing. It was it was, you know,

810
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: prepared to be a Russian spy. I mean, this is

811
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: also story you guys should look in because it's so

812
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: it's such a good story. Den mcrumb is coming up

813
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: with his book Layer this year, and I'm sure it's

814
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 1: gonna make a huge class because the guys stories about

815
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,799
Speaker 1: wire Card or wild so so often nothing happens in

816
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: Germany until stories are reported in the English language press.

817
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: But it also takes a little bit, you know for

818
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 1: things to land in German. You know, it's Germany's in

819
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: many ways, it's old fashioned. It's an old fashioned country

820
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: in many, many ways. Yeah, it's going, it's having your

821
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:19,919
Speaker 1: right direction, but but you know it still has a big,

822
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: big ways to go. All right, So May five, we're

823
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:28,319
Speaker 1: gonna set our set our alarms here to know, ex

824
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:35,479
Speaker 1: keep an eye on dear Spiegel. Yeah, we've first thank

825
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 1: you for being so generous with your time, David, as

826
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: as you can tell and as our as our listeners

827
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: can tell as well, we agree that humanity, civilization owes

828
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: it to itself to be transparent about these stories, even

829
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: even if they seem to make people uncomfortable. I would say,

830
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 1: especially if they seem to make people uncomfortable because they're

831
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: discomfited for a reason. In with with this, uh, what

832
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: we can say is we wanted to hold off on

833
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 1: this interview until the book was out now, so so

834
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 1: now that the book is out in the world, you

835
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: can find Nazi Billionaires The Dark History of Germany's Wealthiest

836
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 1: Dynasties anywhere good books are sold. German listeners, as as

837
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 1: David and Matt pointed out, the German edition is coming

838
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: up May five, keep an eye on the news on

839
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 1: the other side of the pond. And with this you know,

840
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,919
Speaker 1: I I know we're talking a little bit off air,

841
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:42,839
Speaker 1: but you're already onto some new projects, is that correct? Yeah,

842
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 1: I'm moving to to the Middle East, moving to Tel Aviv.

843
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: To be more specific. My partner has a job. She's

844
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: the the new correspondent for German TV for Israel and

845
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 1: the Palestinian territories, and she has already moved here in

846
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 1: August said, I mean, can you imagine it off for

847
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:04,479
Speaker 1: a job in journalism, then being the German Core TV

848
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 1: correspondent for German television in Israel and preston in territories.

849
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I have so much respect for her. She's

850
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: she's an incredible reporter and incredible hard worker and somebody

851
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: who studied both Arabic and Hebrew university and just you know,

852
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: um amazed that that that that I get to be

853
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,800
Speaker 1: with her, such an incredible woman. We wish her safety

854
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 1: just yeah, I mean yeah, just reading news from from

855
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: that region and on this other on this other side

856
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 1: of the world, there's a tremendous sense of you know, yeah,

857
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: it's dangerous, it is it is, yes, absolutely, And I'll

858
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 1: be covering the Middle East, the larger Middle East, um

859
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 1: from from from Tel Aviv. Um, still covering financial and

860
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 1: finance and business as usual. Okay, well, can't wait to

861
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 1: learn about you know, the oil money. It's gonna be exciting, yes,

862
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's gonna be a lot of focus on

863
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 1: the Gulf and dude, yeah all right. Well, David, is

864
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 1: there a specific place that people should go to to

865
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: get your book? If you want to order it to online,

866
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: do a bookshop dot org because I support local booksellers

867
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 1: and independent bookstores. They need all the help they can get.

868
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: UM and you know you can find me on Twitter

869
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:20,760
Speaker 1: and Instagram at David de Young. And with that, folks,

870
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 1: we are going to call it a day. Get the

871
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 1: to your local bookstore and find out more about this

872
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: very important story. Very powerful people would rather you not here. Uh.

873
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 1: We can't thank you enough, David, for being so generous,

874
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 1: as we said, with your time today, and we cannot

875
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 1: thank you enough for the herculean amount of research that

876
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: you have put into this. I I knew it was

877
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 1: serious when I was I was Matt and I were

878
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 1: lucky enough to read advanced copies. And I opened the

879
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: book and one of the first things I see are

880
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 1: this collection of maps, and I think, okay, this is

881
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 1: gonna be one of those things where you don't read

882
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: it straight through. I'm gonna have to go back to

883
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,319
Speaker 1: some stuff, and so I broke out, broke out some

884
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: sticky notes and con track. Yeah, and we're just we're

885
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: grateful this is in the world and we can't wait

886
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:20,800
Speaker 1: to see where this adventure takes you. But please stay

887
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:24,439
Speaker 1: safe and uh and we'll talk with you soon. Thank

888
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 1: you very much for having me ben in, Matt. It's

889
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 1: really a pleasure. And as always, if you would like

890
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 1: to connect with us regarding ideas for a future episode,

891
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 1: regarding your own experience with Hidden History, we'd love to

892
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 1: hear from you. We try to be easy to find

893
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 1: online Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, all the hits, all the good ones,

894
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 1: and if you don't like the online stuff, you don't

895
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 1: sip the social meds. We have another way to contact us,

896
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:53,399
Speaker 1: that's right. Our phone number is one eight three three

897
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 1: st d w y t K. When you call it,

898
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 1: you're gonna be leaving a voicemail message. Please give yourself

899
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:01,839
Speaker 1: a will name and let us know if we can

900
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: use your voice and message on the air. You've got

901
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 1: three minutes, and if you've got more to say than

902
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,319
Speaker 1: can fit in that three minute voicemail message. Why not

903
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 1: instead send us a good old fashioned email. We are

904
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 1: conspiracy at i heeart radio dot com. Stuff they don't

905
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 1: want you to know. Is a production of I heart Radio.

906
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i

907
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Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows.