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Speaker 1: It finally happened. The US government has issued their latest

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Speaker 1: report on what they call u a P S Unidentified

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Speaker 1: Aerial phenomenon the rest of us, all the UFOs. It

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Speaker 1: should go without saying, but we'll say it. Everybody at

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Speaker 1: the stuff there. What you know. FAM was massively excited

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Speaker 1: when this released, and we spent a lot of time

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Speaker 1: wondering what, if any revelations this report would contain, and

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Speaker 1: then it sent us off on our own rabbit hole. Guys,

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Speaker 1: we started looking at all of our old UFO episodes,

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Speaker 1: all the ones from the past, and uh, they kind

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Speaker 1: of build toward towards the same case that the U

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Speaker 1: a P report makes. I think, Oh, I think you're right.

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Speaker 1: I'm I made a silly analogy in an email chain earlier.

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Speaker 1: I felt like we were kids standing outside of our house.

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Speaker 1: If let's imagine that we're all a family and we

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Speaker 1: can hear the sound of an ice cream truck, but

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Speaker 1: it always seems like it's a couple of blocks away.

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Speaker 1: You can always hear it, and we just we were

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Speaker 1: just standing there day and night waiting and it never came.

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Speaker 1: And then it did and we got nine pages of

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Speaker 1: ice cream. Yeah, if you count like the title of

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Speaker 1: page of ice cream. I hope at least one of

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Speaker 1: them is one of those droopy, gumball eyed SpongeBob ice

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Speaker 1: cream bars that are so cool looking on the rapper

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Speaker 1: but terrifying looking in person. They freaked me out. But

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Speaker 1: it's speaking of freaking out. Our first episode here is

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Speaker 1: the story of Betty and Barney Hill. This is quite

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Speaker 1: literally the UFO abduction case that changed the conversation every

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Speaker 1: You can roughly categorize all stories of UFO counters into

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Speaker 1: like before the Hill case and after the Hill case.

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Speaker 1: And we're really excited because we did not go into

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Speaker 1: this endeavor alone. We spoke with the one and only

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Speaker 1: Toby Ball, friend of the show and the creator of

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Speaker 1: podcasts that dives deep into the story of the Hills.

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Speaker 1: That's right, it's called Strange Arrivals. You're gonna learn all

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Speaker 1: about it in this episode, and all about the Benny

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Speaker 1: and Barney Hill story. We highly recommend you continue listening

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Speaker 1: from this point forward. All right, we'll see you on

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Speaker 1: the other side. There's more coming after this. Get ready

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Speaker 1: for a bunch of UFO episodes. From UFOs to psychic

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Speaker 1: powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events.

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Speaker 1: You can turn back now or learn the stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know. A production of My Heart Rady,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my

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Speaker 1: name is Noel. They called me that, and we're joined

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Speaker 1: as always with our super producer Paul Michigan control decads.

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Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you, You are here, and that

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Speaker 1: makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Interestingly enough, uh,

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Speaker 1: many of our fellow listeners have written into us on

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Speaker 1: a regular basis over the years asking us to cover

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Speaker 1: more things about UFOs, whether that's just unexplained aerial phenomena,

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Speaker 1: whether that's uh, you know, allegations of visitations by extraterrestrial

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Speaker 1: or even extra dimensional entities. Uh. And we've we've taken

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Speaker 1: a swing at a lot of it. But today we're

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Speaker 1: bringing out the big guns. In fact, you could say

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Speaker 1: today's episode concerns the most important UFOs story in American history.

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Speaker 1: It's a strange, twisting tale. It begins all the way

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Speaker 1: back in nineteen sixty one, but it's a story that

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Speaker 1: has ramifications which continue to influence the world old of

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Speaker 1: UFO research here in the modern day. That's right, and

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Speaker 1: today we are not going to tackle this alone. We

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Speaker 1: have brought along and are joined by a journalist and author.

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Speaker 1: His name is Toby Ball. He is the host of

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Speaker 1: the new show Strange Arrivals that is executive produced by

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Speaker 1: arn Makeey. By the way, it's a new show on

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Speaker 1: our network that delves deep into the Betty and Barney

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Speaker 1: Hills story. Thanks for coming on the show, Toby. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for having me on. Now, Toby, before we begin today's show,

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Speaker 1: we would be remiss if we didn't mention the fact

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Speaker 1: that you are, in addition to being an author and

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Speaker 1: a journalist, you are also a podcaster in the world

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Speaker 1: of crime. Is that correct? That's right. For about five

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Speaker 1: and a half years, I've been one of the four

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Speaker 1: co hosts of Crime Writers on and every week we

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Speaker 1: review a couple of true crime properties. Occasionally um fictional

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Speaker 1: crime as well, if that happens to be hot at

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Speaker 1: the moment. So podcasts, you know, HBO series, documentaries, things

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Speaker 1: like that, and I would just say that, uh, they're

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Speaker 1: very honest in their reviews. They've they've done several of it.

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Speaker 1: I know Nolan I have made and U Ben you

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Speaker 1: might have one coming down the pike soon too. They're

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Speaker 1: really honest, and it is a It's a great show

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Speaker 1: if you want to get an objective take. Dare we

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Speaker 1: say brutally honest? Sometimes sometimes I think Nolan I have

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Speaker 1: both felt that before, felt the wrath. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know it's worth a listen. Did you did you

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Speaker 1: work on the Oregon Murder? I did? I did. Yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think you were the one that you were the

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Speaker 1: one that dug it, but everybody else hated it apparently.

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Speaker 1: Actually I couldn't even bring myself to listen to it.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, you and I spoke a little bit, and

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Speaker 1: I know that you, uh, you stood up for it,

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Speaker 1: and I really appreciate them. Yeah, I I did. I

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Speaker 1: actually did really like that one. Um awesome, But that's

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Speaker 1: not what we're talking about. To No, it's not. And

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Speaker 1: I want to be the first to say I really

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Speaker 1: like Strange Arrivals, which is what we are here to

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Speaker 1: talk about. It's such a lushly sound designed and soundscaped

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Speaker 1: storytelling kind of bordering on true crime. It feels like

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Speaker 1: a mystery kind of. There's this wonderful atmosphere to it.

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Speaker 1: Your narration is super solid, the writings great, all the

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Speaker 1: archival stuff really enriches the experience, and you know, kudos

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Speaker 1: for for the first episode. I can't wait to hear more.

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Speaker 1: New episodes are out every Tuesday. As we record this,

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Speaker 1: we should note to be strange arrivals. It addresses, as

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Speaker 1: you have mentioned, Matt, it addresses the story of Betty

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Speaker 1: and Barney Hill. Now, a lot of people in our

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Speaker 1: audience today no sort of the the broad strokes of

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Speaker 1: some aspects of the tale, or they've at least heard

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Speaker 1: the name right the Hill case mentioned, But we were

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Speaker 1: hoping we could begin today with a little bit closer

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Speaker 1: look at the overall lay of the land. Uh. On

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Speaker 1: this show, we always like to start with the fact.

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Speaker 1: So for the here are the facts portion of our show,

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Speaker 1: could you give us maybe just a broad outline of

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Speaker 1: of what the story is. It starts on September nineteenth,

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Speaker 1: n right, yes, so what the base of the sort

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Speaker 1: of bones of the story are. Betty and Barney Hill

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Speaker 1: were a mixed race couple from Portsmouth, New Hampshire, professionals

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Speaker 1: in their community, leaders in the civil rights UH movement

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Speaker 1: in in our area of New Hampshire. This I live

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Speaker 1: in southeast New Hampshire as well. UH. So they went

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Speaker 1: on a vacation. Uh. They went to Niagara Falls, they

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Speaker 1: went up to Toronto, UM, and they were going to

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Speaker 1: go and spend a final night the night of September

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Speaker 1: nine in Montreal, and for some reason UH, and there's

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Speaker 1: been a number of reasons given as to why this

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Speaker 1: was UH, they didn't spend the night there. Instead, well

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Speaker 1: into the evening, they decided to draw all the way

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Speaker 1: back to Portsmouth, New Hampshire, which was probably about a

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Speaker 1: seven hour drive at that time. So they started heading south.

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Speaker 1: They crossed the border, they stopped at a um A

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Speaker 1: diner to grab something to eat. As they were leaving

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Speaker 1: the diner, they noticed that it was about a little

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Speaker 1: bit after ten o'clock at night, and they continued to

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Speaker 1: head south and they started to notice they saw a

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Speaker 1: light in the sky that seemed a little brighter than others,

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Speaker 1: and UH and Betty in particular sort of fixated on that.

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Speaker 1: They stopped a couple of times. It seemed as though

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Speaker 1: it was following them. And then they stopped one time

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Speaker 1: just north of a place in the mountains called Franconia Notch.

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Speaker 1: They got out, they looked through binoculars, couldn't quite figure

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Speaker 1: out what it was, but it definitely seemed odd. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't another star. Uh. They thought maybe it was a plane, um,

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Speaker 1: but weren't weren't quite sure what to think. Got back

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Speaker 1: in the are They started to head down through Franconia Notch,

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Speaker 1: which is this area that cuts between uh these two

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Speaker 1: sort of sets of mountains. Um, it's very very steep

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Speaker 1: on either side. It feels it feels pretty um claustrophobic.

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Speaker 1: They pulled up to a place called the Old Man

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Speaker 1: in the Mountain, which uh is no longer there. It

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Speaker 1: actually uh crashed to the ground in two thousand and three,

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Speaker 1: I think, but it used to be this this sort

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Speaker 1: of natural rock formation that looked like an old Man.

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Speaker 1: And they saw an actual craft at this point with

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Speaker 1: with lights and it was hovering and it wasn't making

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Speaker 1: any noise, and so they looked at it and then

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Speaker 1: it it left again and they got back into their car,

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Speaker 1: and then you know, the hearts are pounding. They keep

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Speaker 1: driving south through Fanconia Notch, stopping every once in a

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Speaker 1: while to to see if they can see it. And

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Speaker 1: they get a little bit further south near a tourist

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Speaker 1: area called Indian Head, which is another sort of natural

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Speaker 1: rock formation that looks a tiny bit I guess, like

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Speaker 1: an Indian head. And then you know, they feel this

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Speaker 1: thing whoosh over their car. They stop their car in

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Speaker 1: the middle of the highway. I mean this is at

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Speaker 1: night in very world New Hampshire, so there's almost no traffic,

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Speaker 1: there's no ambient light, and they see a craft hovering

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Speaker 1: above a field. Barney gets out. Uh, he approaches the

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Speaker 1: craft with binoculars and sees beings looking back at him.

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Speaker 1: He panics, runs back to the car. They take off

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Speaker 1: down the highway. Uh, there's a sense that the UFO

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Speaker 1: is following them. It's like sort of hovering above them

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Speaker 1: as they move. Uh, they feel this here, this buzzing noise,

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Speaker 1: and feel like a little bit of a tinge in

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Speaker 1: their bodies. And then about thirty miles further down the

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Speaker 1: road they kind of come to you know, they haven't

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Speaker 1: said anything, they're not really clear of time passing, but

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Speaker 1: suddenly they're down by uh this town Ashelynd, New Hampshire,

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Speaker 1: and they wonder what happened. And so they've had this

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Speaker 1: strange experience and they drive home basically straight from there.

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Speaker 1: They make a quick stop trying to get some coffee,

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Speaker 1: but they end up arriving home, uh two or three

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Speaker 1: hours later than they're expecting to arrive home. They get there,

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Speaker 1: they unpacked their car. They notice a few interesting things.

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Speaker 1: They Betty's dresses torn, Barney's shoes are scoffed, their watches

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Speaker 1: have stopped at identical times, and they they called Betty's sisters.

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Speaker 1: Neighbor was a physicist, and they for whatever reason, Betty

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Speaker 1: thinks that maybe he'll have some insight into this. He

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Speaker 1: suggests they go and they put a compass over uh

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Speaker 1: their car to see if there's any strange magnetism. UH.

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Speaker 1: They apparently do this over the trunk where these bright

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Speaker 1: spots and the compass starts spinning wildly. So there was

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Speaker 1: all these little pieces of what they considered to be

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Speaker 1: evans that something strange had happened during that time. And

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Speaker 1: then about ten days later, Betty has this series of

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Speaker 1: very very intense nightmares about being brought aboard UH an

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Speaker 1: alien spacecraft and having sort of a medical examination done

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Speaker 1: to her on the spacecraft by aliens, and it is

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Speaker 1: very disturbed by this. She tells this story UH to

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Speaker 1: a variety of people, including her supervisor. She apparently, I

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Speaker 1: guess used to have tea with her supervisor and her sister,

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Speaker 1: and she she tells him about these nightmares she's having,

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Speaker 1: and her supervisor, uh, for whatever reason, says, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe you know, maybe they're not just nightmares. Maybe you're

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Speaker 1: actually remembering something that actually happened really really quickly. So

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Speaker 1: this is so, I mean, this is you're you're going

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Speaker 1: through like all of these things that have happened and

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Speaker 1: so far through all of this except with the exception

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Speaker 1: of a few extra people there. These are the personal

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Speaker 1: experiences of two people and the stories that we're getting

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Speaker 1: from two points of view right there, or were the

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Speaker 1: only two people that we are to believe right now,

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Speaker 1: curly are Betty and Barney about what's happened besides the

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Speaker 1: neighbor and you know the supervisor right right, So there

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Speaker 1: wasn't any other sort of corroborating witness to see anything

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Speaker 1: that night they did, you know, they pretty immediately started

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Speaker 1: telling people about what they had seen, you know, So

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Speaker 1: it's not this isn't something where two years later there's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: by the way, you know, two years ago we saw

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Speaker 1: this thing. They they get in touch with a UFO

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Speaker 1: investigation group called Nightcap, which was pretty big at the time, um,

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Speaker 1: and they send an astronomer to come and interview them, um,

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Speaker 1: and he writes up a report. But at the time,

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Speaker 1: it really is the extent of it is seeing this

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Speaker 1: light in the sky and then having this very very

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Speaker 1: intense experience in this field by the Indian Head resort

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Speaker 1: and then heading home. And that's kind of what they remember, uh,

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Speaker 1: served consciously throughout the whole thing, and they you know,

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Speaker 1: they draw a picture of what they saw. Betty writes

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Speaker 1: down a narrative of her dreams nightcap. By the way,

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Speaker 1: for anyone who's interested, was a thing called the National

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Speaker 1: Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena, and it was active roughly

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Speaker 1: nine fifties to the nineteen eighties. So this was a

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Speaker 1: real this was a real prime time heyday for the organization.

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Speaker 1: I guess we would sum up then for our or

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Speaker 1: look at these unusual instances. So so Betty and Barney

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Speaker 1: see this anomalous thing. Uh. They also, uh, when they

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Speaker 1: kind of come to out of a fugue state, they've

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Speaker 1: lost time. Would it be fair to say that from

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Speaker 1: their account they have lost time? Yeah, they absolutely think that.

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Speaker 1: I think sort of the the unusual nature of the

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Speaker 1: whole experience makes the lost time part of it seemed

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Speaker 1: not as like that seems to kind of fall back

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Speaker 1: as compared to seeing, uh, you know, a spacecraft in

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Speaker 1: the middle of a field, but as time kind of

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Speaker 1: goes on um, and especially after she has those dreams,

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Speaker 1: that is something they're like, huh, you know, that is

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Speaker 1: kind of weird that it took an extra two hours

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Speaker 1: to get home. What what went on there? I'd like

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Speaker 1: to maybe bracket this just for a second, because what

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Speaker 1: what you've just outlined, uh succinctly and and very well

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Speaker 1: is the is the order of events in which they

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Speaker 1: occur that we that we know for sure per Betty

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Speaker 1: and Barney. For many people this would probably remain the

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Speaker 1: most in explicable, strangest experience of their adult lives. But

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Speaker 1: this is just sort of the beginning of the tale.

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Speaker 1: And one thing I like, without spoiling strange arrivals, one

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Speaker 1: thing I I was surprised to find and fascinated by,

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Speaker 1: was there's a segment early on in the podcast where

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Speaker 1: you talk a bit about your own personal experience. I

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Speaker 1: think it's at the very beginning of the very first episode.

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Speaker 1: Could you could you tell us a little bit just

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Speaker 1: so we have something to compare with Betty and Barney.

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Speaker 1: Could you tell us a little bit about your experience

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Speaker 1: and what you see as differences or commonalities and maybe

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Speaker 1: whether that inspired you to pursue this show. Yeah, so,

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Speaker 1: um strange arrivals. Actually it starts with me talking about

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Speaker 1: uh an experience and experiences is maybe putting it too strongly, Uh,

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Speaker 1: but uh, I was having So my family's got a

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Speaker 1: place up on an eye is land in a lake

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Speaker 1: in New Hampshire called Lake Winnipesake, which is you know,

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Speaker 1: it's about an hour and a half, two hours from

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Speaker 1: where Betty and Barney had their experience. And it was

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Speaker 1: right around dusk and we were having uh dinner and

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Speaker 1: drinks with a couple who are old friends of ours,

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Speaker 1: my wife and I and uh my wife saw these

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Speaker 1: red lights sort of hovering above, you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: the hills that you can see, uh from the porch

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Speaker 1: of our house. You know, it was just strange. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've been going up there for fifty years and I

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Speaker 1: hadn't seen anything quite like that before. And it was

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Speaker 1: enough that we we walked down from the porch, we

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Speaker 1: walked onto our dock to get a better look and

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Speaker 1: you know, the number of lights. I believe it started

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Speaker 1: with four and probably got up to about seven red lights.

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Speaker 1: And they were kind of moving around and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: clear you know, there there's some distance away, there was

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Speaker 1: no noise, and it wasn't clear if there are individual

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Speaker 1: things that were moving or whether it was a larger

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Speaker 1: thing that was kind of you know, moving in its

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Speaker 1: aspect to us, so that we were getting a different

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Speaker 1: view of what it was. I mean, that was sort

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Speaker 1: of the illusion that we had. And I just I

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Speaker 1: just I checked. My wife was checking. She wrote some

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Speaker 1: notes about this afterwards. Uh, and we watched it for

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Speaker 1: twenty minutes, you know, so it was a good long

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Speaker 1: time that we were watching this, you know, and it

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Speaker 1: never got to be more than just lights. You know,

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Speaker 1: we never saw like an outline of anything or ane

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Speaker 1: of the lights seemed to have uh you know, more

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Speaker 1: to them. So what's what's kind of interesting is, you know,

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Speaker 1: while we're watching this, my buddy and I are like,

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Speaker 1: how I wonder what that is? And my wife and

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Speaker 1: and my buddy's wife were like, oh, yeah, that's definitely

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Speaker 1: that's what those are. That's an alien spacecraft, like no

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Speaker 1: doubt about it. And then you know, if you talk

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Speaker 1: to us now, like my buddy and I are, the

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Speaker 1: way we remember it ending is the lights just kind

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Speaker 1: of blinked out one by one, like they just kind

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Speaker 1: of disappeared. And uh, my wife and and uh and

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Speaker 1: my buddy's wife are both say that they took off

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Speaker 1: at high speeds. You know, they just kind of took

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Speaker 1: off and disappeared. But there was movement involved. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: just blinking out. So this has been a source of

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Speaker 1: of some some dispute at various times after a few libations, um.

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Speaker 1: And so that was kind of it was an interesting

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Speaker 1: question to me. It's like, why did half of us

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Speaker 1: believe right off the bat, It's like, wow, that must

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Speaker 1: be something extraterrestrial, and then half of us were like,

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Speaker 1: it could be just about anything, have no clue what

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Speaker 1: it is, but it's definitely not that um. And that

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Speaker 1: was kind of what got me thinking about these kinds

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Speaker 1: of questions in general, like why are some people uh

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Speaker 1: skeptical about these things? Why are the people more prone

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Speaker 1: to believe these things when you're looking at exactly the

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Speaker 1: same thing. Right, the evidence that we had was identical.

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Speaker 1: And then based on that that first instinct, our memories

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Speaker 1: of what happened are are are very different. It's really fascinating.

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Speaker 1: The whole idea of like the fallibility of memory, I

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Speaker 1: think is a really interesting spin on this, And especially

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Speaker 1: when it was sort of split between the believers and

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Speaker 1: the nonbelievers as to how you actually visually, you know,

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Speaker 1: interpreted this information like and then took that and created like,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is this is this is this phenomenon.

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Speaker 1: I absolutely believe it. It's not such a leap to

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Speaker 1: think that. It's just really interesting to me that And

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Speaker 1: so what where did you guys land on that? Like

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Speaker 1: when you like, what do these debates sound like over

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Speaker 1: a few drinks like that? How do you make your case?

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Speaker 1: Was it just okay I canna this podcast? Yeah? Well

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Speaker 1: you know it's uh, you know, nobody budgets Basically, you know,

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Speaker 1: people dig in their heels and we have another beer

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Speaker 1: and we dig in our heels even further. And uh,

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Speaker 1: there really hasn't been any kind of movement towards the

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Speaker 1: center from anybody. I mean, you just the memories, the

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Speaker 1: memory um and and that's kind of what made it

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Speaker 1: compelling to me. Um. And when I was talking to

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Speaker 1: my friend about this podcast. He had the same same feeling.

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Speaker 1: It's like it is, it is super strange that we all,

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Speaker 1: you know, at this point it's what like six years ago.

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Speaker 1: It's not that long, UM, but our memories of it

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Speaker 1: are just are so different, and there's just no gift

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Speaker 1: to anybody. Everybody is very clear about what they remember.

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Speaker 1: So I was trying to figure out a way of like,

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Speaker 1: how do you approach like examining this, UM And that

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Speaker 1: was when I kind of latched onto the Betty and

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Speaker 1: Partey hillcase. Uh, partly because I live UM in the

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Speaker 1: same town as the University of New Hampshire and they've

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Speaker 1: got the Betty and Partney Hill papers and um a

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Speaker 1: lot of other kinds of documents, audio documents, video documents, uh, photographs,

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Speaker 1: So it seemed like it seemed like kind of a

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Speaker 1: natural as a way of taking a look at it,

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Speaker 1: because it does bring up a lot of the same

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Speaker 1: issues about you know, perception and memory and how how

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Speaker 1: do you approach how do you approach making sense of

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Speaker 1: things that that you experience that don't have an obvious explanation.

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Speaker 1: And we'll be back with our discussion with Toby Ball

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Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsor welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: Now let's keep you on with this conversation. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're we're talking about belief here. Something Ben has stated

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Speaker 1: on this podcast before. I'm gonna paraphrase, But each of

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Speaker 1: our understandings of the world, it's only the information that

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Speaker 1: we've ever taken in, right, You. We can't no things

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Speaker 1: necessarily that we've never accepted it like as as information

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Speaker 1: into our brains. So each of us has that different

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Speaker 1: perspective of all the information we know and then applying

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Speaker 1: it to what we're observing. Right, That's kind of what

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Speaker 1: you're exploring here. But the story really takes a turn

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Speaker 1: at the point where we left off a little while

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Speaker 1: ago there when we're getting into the concept of digging

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Speaker 1: into someone's brain, putting someone back into a fugue like state,

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Speaker 1: and digging through their brain to pull out new information

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Speaker 1: that hasn't been stated as a memory. Right. Yeah, That's

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Speaker 1: that's why I would ask you specifically, Toby, um, do

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Speaker 1: you think that, uh say, hypnotic regression might help solve

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Speaker 1: this long standing disagreement about what you saw? I would

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Speaker 1: it would be interesting to find out I uh my

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Speaker 1: sense is having uh talked to a lot of people

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Speaker 1: about hypnotic regression at this point is that we would

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Speaker 1: probably probably I'll tell the exact same stories. It's your

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Speaker 1: your recall through hypnotic regression is it's it's making it's

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Speaker 1: made with the same sort of fallible things that you're

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Speaker 1: conscious memory is made of, you know, when you're when

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Speaker 1: you're thinking about things. So it's it's taking the same

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Speaker 1: basic elements but just in sort of a different state

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Speaker 1: of consciousness to recreate them. And I didn't want to,

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Speaker 1: uh apologize if I'm derailing the conversation here, guys, but

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Speaker 1: I do mean it as, let's say, um sixty joking

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Speaker 1: with you and well what if, because that's, uh, that's

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Speaker 1: exactly what you're setting up, Matt, right, like the the

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Speaker 1: idea that the Hills eventually um and I think we

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Speaker 1: we have a little bit of a of a time

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Speaker 1: gap there, but eventually, uh, how inspired in part by

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Speaker 1: Betty's dream journal, inspired of course by these unusual events,

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Speaker 1: they they also uh turned to hypnosis. Right, is it

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Speaker 1: hypnotic regressions specifically or just I'm not a hypnotist. I

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Speaker 1: don't know the difference. So Barney had already had um

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Speaker 1: some anxiety issues and I believe it's already seeing a therapists.

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Speaker 1: But regardless of whether he was before or not, he

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Speaker 1: does end up seeing a therapist, but they're not really

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Speaker 1: talking about alien stuff. They're talking about other issues in

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Speaker 1: his life. But he does bring up this this thing

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Speaker 1: that happened um, and his therapist recommends that you go

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Speaker 1: down and see a psychiatrist uses hypnosis, whose name is

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Speaker 1: Dr Benjamin Simon, who's very well known for working with

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Speaker 1: returning soldiers who had PTSD. It wasn't known as PTSC

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Speaker 1: at the time, but but that's what it was. So

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Speaker 1: they go down there and and they do regression hypnosis.

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Speaker 1: So what he as as he says, you know, cast

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Speaker 1: yourself back to this date, tell me what happened. And

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Speaker 1: so they start to go through this story, and he

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Speaker 1: starts them off in in Montreal and going on the

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Speaker 1: different steps of the journey. But what they what they

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Speaker 1: find is that after this buzzing noise that I talked about,

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Speaker 1: after they have this uh sort of intense experience with

428
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: the UFO in the field, they both tell sort of

429
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: versions from their own viewpoints of this same story of

430
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 1: their driving down the highways Route three, they take a

431
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: turn off for some reason they don't really know why.

432
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: They take another turn onto a dirt road where they're

433
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: stopped by six figures in the road and they see

434
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: this glowing light behind them, and you know, they're they're

435
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: not quite clear what's going on. But Barney turns off

436
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: the car and then can't turn it back on again,

437
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: and the figures break into two groups come and take

438
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 1: them from their car and bring them on to a

439
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 1: bring him through the woods and onto a spacecraft. Yeah,

440
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: they they get on a spacecraft and don't the don't

441
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: the people talk to them while they're being pulled out

442
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: like it's it's interesting in that. So one of the

443
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: things that comes out of all this is Betty has

444
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: this very detailed, uh story about this whole thing. Barney

445
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: has a much less detailed story, and they both sort

446
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 1: of agree that that he was sort of put under

447
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: the alien control and then he had his eyes closed

448
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: and it was very scared. She, on the other hand, um,

449
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: you know, ends up talking to them, um, and there

450
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: was one who speaks English with an English accent, she says,

451
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: sort of a foreign English accent, and he's sort of

452
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: trying to reassure her that it's gonna be fine. We're

453
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 1: just gonna take you aboard the spaceship. You don't have

454
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: to worry, and then we'll bring you back and no

455
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: harm will come of you. And you know, she's wary,

456
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: as I think anybody would be about being brought onto

457
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: an alien spacecraft. But they do. They bring them aboard,

458
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: and they separate them into different rooms and uh they

459
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: undergo you know, medical uh, medical examinations at the hands

460
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 1: of a alien who they call the physician um. And

461
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: he doesn't speak English either. There's there's the leader who

462
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: speaks English, the physician who does the medical exams, and

463
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: then there's a whole bunch of you know, six or

464
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: seven sort of crew members or whatever who speak amongst

465
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: each other, but not in English or any language that

466
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: you know a human would understand. Now you mentioned, you know,

467
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: the divide that is obviously even in in listeners to

468
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,719
Speaker 1: the show, and even between the three of us, between

469
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: you know, belief and skepticism um. And you know some

470
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: people can kind of their grades of that obviously, and

471
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: you can change over over the course of your life.

472
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 1: Have you found that this research and and looking into

473
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: the story and going deeper has changed you a little bit?

474
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: In terms of your belief or or made you more skeptical. Um,

475
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: that's a really interesting question. I feel as though I've

476
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: become more skeptical of my own memories of things that

477
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: seem that seemed real. UM. And I can kind of

478
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: give you a quick example. I my my sister has

479
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: a story up at that same island place where when

480
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: she was young, you know, three or four, opening the

481
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: door from our kitchen to the outside and seeing a

482
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: raccoon hanging from a screen and freaking out and then

483
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: having nobody believe her. And I have this absolutely crystal

484
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: clear memory of being in the kitchen when that happened,

485
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: in her opening the door and looking and seeing her

486
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: back and then seeing the raccoon hanging from the screen.

487
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: But it seems that that almost certainly did not happen.

488
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: It seems that she told me that story, and I,

489
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: you know, I was able to picture it in my

490
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: head so clearly that now it seems like this absolutely

491
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: concrete memory that oh yeah, I was there when my

492
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: sister opened the door and saw the raccoon. But based

493
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: on her memory of it, like, we both can't be right,

494
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: and I'm pretty sure she's probably the one who is

495
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: And I just imagine that happening so much. Uh, So

496
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: that's really been you know, more than I would have

497
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: expected myself too. I've really taken a look at things

498
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: that have happened in the past that I feel as

499
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: though I remember pretty well but don't necessarily feel consistent

500
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: with with other pieces of reality, um, and then sort

501
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: of questioning if my memory of that is accurate. So

502
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: that that's really been you know, it's been kind of

503
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: an eye opener, quite honestly. And then when you apply

504
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: it to the other part of my other podcasting stuff,

505
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: which is about you know, true crime, and you think

506
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: about you know, people going in front of going out

507
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: trial and having these witnesses with these people's lives in

508
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: their hands, and just knowing that their memories are probably

509
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: not as accurate as they think they are. Is Uh,

510
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,479
Speaker 1: it's sobering. We talked about this all the time, and

511
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: you know, we've all worked on true crime shows as well,

512
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: but how eyewitness accounts are typically just awful. They're the

513
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: worst kinds, but they can absolutely convict somebody or if

514
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: you point somebody out in a lineup. And then we've

515
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: seen you know, experiments where people um don't remember faces

516
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: or they kind of twist it to fit their own narrative,

517
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: or maybe they really want someone to go down for

518
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: something and so they convinced themselves that that's the guy

519
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: that did this or whatever. I mean, it's really fascinating

520
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: the way we're able to almost delude ourselves, Like your

521
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: raccoon story is a form of that. It's it's less conscious,

522
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: but you basically invented a narrative by believing something so

523
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: much that you created this image in your mind that

524
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: seemed very very real. But now you've accepted Okay, I

525
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: think that was just It sort of speaks to the

526
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: power of belief, really, and how we're able to kind

527
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: of fool ourselves and trick ourselves into thinking that things

528
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: are are happening are real when they're absolutely not. We'll

529
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: be back with more from Toby Ball after a word

530
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: from our sponsor and we're back. So I want to

531
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: follow up with a question here. To me, one thing

532
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: that's fascinating about the raccoon story is, Toby, have you

533
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: ever heard of something called the Mandela effect? I don't

534
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: think so. So. Uh, maybe fifty years from now you

535
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: and I will look back and think that we both

536
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: did remember it because it's a uh, it's it's this

537
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: fascinating concept that's very close to what what we're talking

538
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: about today. Um wherein people can become convinced in a

539
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: group that something has happened and it didn't occur. It's

540
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,719
Speaker 1: named the Mandela effect because the person who named it

541
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: they were in a group of people who were certain

542
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: that they knew um Nelson Mandela had or had not

543
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: died and exactly when that happened, and they were so

544
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: surprised that this was not the case at least in

545
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: their current timeline, that instead of just saying, well, maybe

546
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: we were wrong about it, they've doubled down and said

547
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: maybe they're having a memory from a different timeline. The

548
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: stupidest version of that is that there's a whole contingent

549
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: of people that believe Shaquille O'Neil played a genie named

550
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: Shazam in a movie, but it was actually Kazam I

551
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: think was the name of the movie. If I'm mistaken,

552
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: and it wasn't Shaquila no Sinbad, but it was actually

553
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: Shaquille O'Neil, And correct me on that one then. But

554
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: that's my favorite example of this. There's another one with

555
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: the baron Stein Bears versus the Baron's Stain Bears. So

556
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: many people believe it's spelled st e i N and

557
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: in their minds that's like just that's all it's ever been.

558
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: It's always been the Barren steam Bears, but it's actually

559
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: the Barren Stain Bears. It's interesting. I was actually tripped

560
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: up on that one a few years ago. Somebody pointed

561
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 1: that out to me. We did a whole episode on it,

562
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: and I don't think we've ever had more feedback episode

563
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 1: besides maybe the what the sleep paralysis episode maybe been?

564
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: I think maybe we got right right Matt sleep paralysis.

565
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,399
Speaker 1: It's interesting because both the Mandela effect, the what I've

566
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: always called like the treachery of memory, and sleep paralysis, uh,

567
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: the situation wherein people experience vivid things, often nightmares, or

568
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: the sensation that they are not in control of their

569
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: body while they attempt to slumber. Those both could relate,

570
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: in a way, however, indirectly to the case of Barney

571
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: and Betty Hill. More skeptical people in the audience, for instance,

572
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: might say that perhaps Betty was experiencing some form of

573
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: sleep paralysis in her dreams. But what we like Toby.

574
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: The question about the dreams is fascinating to me because

575
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: they're a whole other world. What did Betty just have

576
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: like a short run of bad dreams or where they

577
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: recurring dreams? Did they change? What do we know about

578
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: her dreams? So it's interesting she actually wrote them down

579
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: in a document called Dreams or Recall, So she was

580
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: already kind of thinking about, you know, is this dreams

581
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: or is this actual memories of something that happened that

582
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: that's been repressed. And so what she said is she

583
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: does she doesn't dream them in sort of chronicle order,

584
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: of chronological order of of the way they happened. She

585
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: dreams them sort of out of order, and then she

586
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: puts them into order in this document. And and so

587
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 1: they kind of stitched together, but they don't follow one

588
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 1: after the other. There they kind of bounce around a

589
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: little bit. And I don't know, like I haven't come

590
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: up with anything that goes into any more detail on

591
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: on how that all worked. You basically just get you know,

592
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 1: this is my compiling these five dreams in a way

593
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 1: that sort of makes narrative sense going forward. And and

594
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: so it's this, you know, it's this I imagine quite

595
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: distressing a series of dreams again about being aboard a

596
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: spacecraft and and being under the control of alien visitors

597
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: and having them, you know, examine you, and and really

598
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: you know, you're you're sort of powerless in the face

599
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: of their technology, and they also seem to have some

600
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: kind of physical control over you, even if they're not

601
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: holding on. It's interesting how that scenario always is kind

602
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: of the trope of alien abductions. Like I kind of

603
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: wonder what the first one that has ever reported was

604
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: you happen to know anything about the history of this

605
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: scenario of being you know, probed or examined, Like it

606
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 1: didn't just come out of nowhere, you know, like whether

607
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 1: even if it's made up, is somebody made it up first.

608
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by how this is a repeating story we

609
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: see all the time with these abduction um remembrances. I

610
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 1: guess so. I think that's one of the interesting thing

611
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 1: about this case is that there really wasn't anything quite

612
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: like it beforehand, and this sort of sets the narrative

613
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 1: going forward, you know, And and so most abduction cases

614
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: that follow are are playing off this to a certain extent,

615
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: And and you know, it's like anything else where. It

616
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: escalates and escalates and escalates, and then you end up

617
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 1: in the eighties and nineties with you know, people being

618
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: de materialized through walls and you know, uh, you know,

619
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: tens or hundreds of thousands of people being abducted. But

620
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 1: before Betty and Barney Hill, there's really only one case

621
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: that was not well known own at the time, and

622
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: it took place in Brazil, and it was this guy

623
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: named Antonio Villis Bois who was abducted and brought on

624
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: a UFO and and sort of a little twist on

625
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: this has a a sort of sexual, uh sexual encounter

626
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: with a alien like this small female alien with bright

627
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: red hair who you know, screams like an animal and

628
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 1: rubs her belly and points up to the stars and

629
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: he takes it to me and she's gonna take their

630
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 1: baby back to her home planet, I guess, to raise

631
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: him or whatever. This hadn't really made it to uh,

632
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: the US unless you were like a real UFO aficionado.

633
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 1: So son Betty and Barney, Um, and I think there

634
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: is a question that that hasn't been answered about why

635
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: this sort of medical exam in particular, h she talks

636
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: about having a needle uh, plug into our navel with

637
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: the idea that it has something to do with reproduction

638
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 1: or pregnancy. Different people have different I think hypotheses, and

639
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: I think you can kind of, you know, guess what

640
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: they are about why they would why should be sort

641
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: of fixated on that in particular. But I don't know.

642
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, nobody's I haven't read anything

643
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: where people are like, this is why these two people

644
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: in particular would be this concerned about, you know, sexual

645
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: matters when you're on board a spaceship. So it's just

646
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: a really good question, and I'm not sure what the

647
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: answer is. If there's something deeper, I want to get

648
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: into that and try and tie it back to their

649
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: work in the civil rights movement and like try and

650
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 1: compare or somehow find a way to compare that. But

651
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: before we do that, we're talking about the how influential

652
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: this story was from the you know, the abduction experience,

653
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: what actually happens when you're abducted, but also the the

654
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:06,959
Speaker 1: extra supposed extraterrestrials that did the abducting there the descriptions

655
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 1: of them change quite a bit. Right over the course

656
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:16,240
Speaker 1: of the oldest stories from Betty and Barney. Yeah, yeah. Um.

657
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: So when it first happened, immediately following their sighting on

658
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: on September nine, they describe seeing, you know, basically humans

659
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 1: looking back at them, humans who are wearing uniforms, um,

660
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: who are wearing caps some of them. And so that's

661
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: about what you get up until the point where they

662
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: undergo hypnosis. And then there's a slight change and part

663
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 1: of it is under hypnosis. Um. You know, when Barney's

664
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 1: describing being in the in the field and looking at

665
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: these beings looking back at him, he describes two of

666
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: these beings. One he describes as looking like an irishman, um.

667
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: And he worked in Boston, and as an African American,

668
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,720
Speaker 1: it was very clear that he saw Irish as being

669
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: sort of agents of racial animosity. Uh. So this is

670
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: like a stressful image to him. The other one he

671
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: describes as a Nazi. So again it's this sort of

672
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: a figure that would cause him anxiety. Um. And he

673
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: actually talks in radio interviews about how he didn't feel

674
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:32,720
Speaker 1: that they were sinister, but that the situation itself was sinister.

675
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 1: But the way he describes them, certainly to me, sort

676
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: of indicates that at some level he thought it was

677
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: they were sinister. But this changes when they go aboard

678
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 1: the UFO and he he talks about you know, basically

679
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: you know what you would think of as a gray

680
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: or sort of like a proto gray of like you know,

681
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: the slit mouth and the very small nose or almost

682
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,720
Speaker 1: non existent nose, and uh, you know, the big eyes.

683
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 1: And he even goes he has this very weird thing

684
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 1: about there being a film over the mouth that makes

685
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: this kind of weird, you know, slurpy kind of noise. Uh,

686
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: and it's very you know, it would be an alarming

687
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: thing to open your eyes up to. Betty, on the

688
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,720
Speaker 1: other hand, and her dreams, talks about them as little

689
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: guys with big noses like Jimmy Duranty, and people kind

690
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: of say, well, she heard what Barney's description was and

691
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: kind of changes her story a little bit to fit his,

692
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 1: uh not to mention the fact that you know, people's

693
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: reaction is is that it's like, oh, like Jimmy Durranty

694
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: and you chuckle, like aliens like Jimmy Durranty, How's that happened?

695
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: So they come out of this doing doing all this

696
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: hypnosis with this basic idea of sort of what the

697
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,720
Speaker 1: aliens look like, and it's sort of on the way

698
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 1: to being what we think of now as a typical alien.

699
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: And they spend some time trying to refine this, and

700
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: they end up working with a New Hampshire artists named

701
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: David Baker in the late sixties, and he's sketching drawings

702
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: of of what Betty and Barney think they look like.

703
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 1: And they're getting back to him, they're like, see sketches,

704
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 1: and they'll get back and they'll they'll say, you know,

705
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 1: make these changes. This isn't this is the stuff that

706
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: was wrong. And then he'll get back with a new um,

707
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 1: a new sketch, and they actually, you know, if at

708
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,959
Speaker 1: the UNH Library, University of New Hampshire Library, they've got

709
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 1: the copies of those um those sketches, and they're they're

710
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: really they're they're a little bit spooky, like in all honesty,

711
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: and they're just kind of hazy and vague enough that

712
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: they're very evocative of this idea that you're kind of

713
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: like trying to bring up a memory um in a

714
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: way that I thought was really kind of cool and interesting.

715
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 1: And the other the other piece that they try to

716
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 1: put together to sort of document their memories of this

717
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: is this strange little bust called JR. And it was

718
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 1: something that Betty commissioned a woman named Marjorie Fish, who

719
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 1: plays a big part in the story in another way,

720
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: to create and it's it's like a little bust of

721
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: a gray, you know, like a primitive version of a gray.

722
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: And it's about the size of a small human head.

723
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: I've held it. It's got a little hole in the

724
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: back from where she knocked it off pedestal during a

725
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: talk she was giving in Cincinnati, and it's it's just

726
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: a very very odd thing, but but it is. I mean,

727
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 1: that's that's what she says is the closest representation to

728
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,839
Speaker 1: what she saw during that experience and that classic kind

729
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 1: of gray alien image that is just so ubiquitous and

730
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 1: pop culture. Now this is kind of the origin of that,

731
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: Like this is really where that kind of came into existence.

732
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: The story. Yeah, so this is the first time I

733
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 1: think it's been put forward as being a um, you know,

734
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: an actual alien, like I saw an alien and that's

735
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: what it looked like. There's been uh people have tried

736
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 1: to say where where did they get this vision? And

737
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: they point to a there's an episode of the Outer

738
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 1: Limits that ran just a couple of weeks before they

739
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 1: started Hypnosis, and it was called the Bolero Shield. And

740
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: it's got this alien in it that kind of looks

741
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:35,359
Speaker 1: like a gray It looks very loosely. Yeah, I mean,

742
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: I think you the only way you can really make

743
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: it work is if you try and describe it and

744
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: then somebody hears it and then they draw something that

745
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: sort of looks a little bit like it. You might

746
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: come up with the gray, but it's not so close.

747
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: And then I've actually heard Brian Dunning from Skeptoid had

748
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: heard from somebody that there was another Twilight Zone episode

749
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 1: that was about a year and a half before that

750
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: that was called, um, hocus Pocus and Frisbee that has

751
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 1: another similar kind of I mean, this is all this

752
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: is stuff from like, you know, the early sixties. So

753
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: the alien is basically a guy in a mask, and

754
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 1: I think in hocus Pocus and Frisbee, he's actually wearing

755
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,439
Speaker 1: a suit while he's being an alien. Uh, And it's

756
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: it's all, it's kind of ridiculous, but it does have

757
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: the basic idea of big eyes, not much of a nose,

758
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: just a little slip for a mouth. So for what

759
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: it's worth. Another fascinating detail that ends up coming out

760
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 1: of the hypnosis session sessions and the memories then that

761
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 1: are kind of brought back from the time that Betty

762
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: I think it is particularly Betty when the time that

763
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: she supposedly spent on this spacecraft UM was that she

764
00:46:55,800 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: saw some kind of dotted lights or line of light

765
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 1: which she interpreted to be I believe a star map.

766
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yeah? So while she's after she gets

767
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: her exam, uh, she apparently gets quite comfortable uh and

768
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: starts having a conversation with this alien. She calls the

769
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,439
Speaker 1: leader and she asked him, you know where did where

770
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: did you come from? And his response is to sort

771
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 1: of pull out this what they call a star map

772
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 1: UM and apparently is in some ways a three D

773
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: type thing UM. Regardless, he pulls it out and she says, well,

774
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: which one is yours? And he says, well, can you

775
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: point out where your son is on on this map?

776
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: And she says now, and he says, well, then it

777
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: doesn't make any difference, right, like, you know, you can't

778
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: orient yourself, So he puts it away. So she tells

779
00:47:54,160 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: this story under hypnosis and Dr Simon, Uh, the hypnotist.

780
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:05,720
Speaker 1: It's just intrigued by it, and says, you know, sometime

781
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: when you're not hypnotized, if you if you want to,

782
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: why don't you draw that map that you saw. So

783
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 1: she draws the map later, and it's you know, I

784
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: think it's twenty one sort of circles of various sizes,

785
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 1: and some of them are connected by lines, and some

786
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: of them are connected by more than one line. And

787
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 1: so this is a star map. So this is supposed

788
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 1: to be a exact replica of what she saw on board.

789
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,840
Speaker 1: And what makes it the really interesting part of the

790
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: story is that this woman, Marjorie Fish, the very same

791
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: Marjorie Fish who did the bust of Junior the alien.

792
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,879
Speaker 1: She looks at it and thinks, maybe I can use

793
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 1: that to determine where the aliens came from, Like what's

794
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,919
Speaker 1: the what's the vantage point in the galaxy from which

795
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: this map was made. So this isn't the pre you know,

796
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: home computer age. So what she does is she gets

797
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: uh the latest information on stars and their distance from

798
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 1: the Earth and each other um and she makes these

799
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 1: really really elaborate models of the near galaxy in her

800
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: living room. And what she does is she puts you know,

801
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: black paper or fabric around the walls, and then from

802
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: the ceiling she hangs beads from thread and it's all

803
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 1: done with these like super exact measurements to get them

804
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,839
Speaker 1: as close as possible to exactly where they would be

805
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 1: in space based on what we knew. Then you know

806
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:49,919
Speaker 1: this is you know, this takes place over a course

807
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: of years, and I think she does twenty or twenty

808
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 1: one different models, and then she takes a camera and

809
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,919
Speaker 1: she's taking pictures from different angles, right, so she's trying

810
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: to get it to match, get a picture that will

811
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 1: match the star map. And so she gets to a

812
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,399
Speaker 1: point it's very you know, as you can imagine, it's

813
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:14,760
Speaker 1: very detailed, exacting, frustrating work. She can't find a match.

814
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 1: And then um, this new uh astronomy catalog sort of

815
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 1: the astronomy Bible at the time comes out and it's

816
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 1: identified a few new stars and there's three stars that

817
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: when she adds them to one of her models, it

818
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: fits the star map. Um, and then so you know what,

819
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 1: what's her proponents of the Hills story say, is you

820
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 1: know that Matt wouldn't have existed as humans couldn't have

821
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 1: made that map with what they knew at the time

822
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:52,839
Speaker 1: that she drew it, Like you had to have had

823
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: advanced understanding of the location of different stars in order

824
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 1: to create that map. Um. So yeah, she she identified

825
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 1: they're sort of uh stars of origin as Zeta Reticuli,

826
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: which is a a binary star system which she thought

827
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:15,280
Speaker 1: could sustain a planet that could have life. So it's really,

828
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:23,439
Speaker 1: you know, uh completely sort of obsessive quest to uh

829
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: find a match in something that would be really daunting

830
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: today with computers, but back then when you're just like

831
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: literally hanging beads from a ceiling. Uh, it is unbelievable.

832
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: And the pictures there's no pictures on the internet, um,

833
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:40,720
Speaker 1: but there are, or at least that I could find.

834
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 1: But they do have a lot of those pictures at

835
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: the University of New Hampshire Special Collections and I've I've

836
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:51,240
Speaker 1: checked them out, um, and it's it's really it's quite something.

837
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 1: It's interesting because it reminds me of the old, the

838
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,839
Speaker 1: older story of the Dogon tribe that um, I think

839
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: this was actually after or the Betting and Barney hillcase.

840
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 1: You guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but the

841
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 1: Dogon tribe had a similar experience being able to UM

842
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: name stars or star system, a serious system that was,

843
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 1: according to the tail uh, something that human technology was

844
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: not at the time able to view. UH. And it's

845
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: strange to me because, you know, like someone else pointed

846
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: out earlier, we're seeing tropes there. And now that we

847
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 1: know this story for the Dogon may have happened or

848
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 1: come to attention after the Betty and Barney Hill story,

849
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 1: we have to we have to ask ourselves just how

850
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: profoundly the experience of these folks has has informed UFO

851
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: of folklore UFO. UM. I don't even want to say tropes,

852
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 1: but you know, has informed the commonalities that people say

853
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 1: they experience. When you're in the course of your research

854
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 1: here uh and you're you're finding all these exclusive materials

855
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 1: that are, as you said, uh, not available on the

856
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: internet or not widely available. Have you run into other

857
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 1: people researching this story, or if you had anybody, um,

858
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: anybody contact you with some kind of exclusive or some

859
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: kind of what they feel is an insight. I guess

860
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: what I'm asking Toby is have you had other people

861
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: who feel they've experienced an abduction reach out to you? Uh?

862
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 1: Not yet, although I I feel so that may come

863
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:36,720
Speaker 1: at some point in the future as we as strange

864
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: arrivals kind of continues on. Um, yeah, I haven't. It's

865
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: the Betty and Barney Hill archives are as you imagine

866
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 1: the most sort of viewed things that they have at

867
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 1: the University of New Hampshire. There's a big UFO conference

868
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 1: in Exeter, New Hampshire, which is about twenty minutes away.

869
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 1: Uh So during that sort of week slash weekend, a

870
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 1: lot of people come in and if only to see

871
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: like the Junior Boss star Betty's torn dress, which is

872
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 1: also there. Um, it's sort of a pilgrimage. Um. But yeah,

873
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,800
Speaker 1: I haven't. I haven't anybody reach out to me yet,

874
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: but I'll keep you in the loop if I do.

875
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:23,399
Speaker 1: Please do because towards the end of this episode, we're

876
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 1: going to tell people where to find you, ha ha,

877
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 1: which is actually guys, what we're about to do now. Um,

878
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 1: really quickly, if you do want to check out the

879
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 1: special collections at the University of New Hampshire, if you

880
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: cannot physically go there, you can go to Library dot

881
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 1: U n H dot e D. You just do a

882
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 1: little search within there for Betty and Barney Hill and

883
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 1: you'll see the special collections that they have. Um, they've

884
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 1: really it's it's really just kind of a list of

885
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 1: the materials that are available there and like which box

886
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,399
Speaker 1: they're in and where you can find them if you're

887
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,359
Speaker 1: physically there. But it's a great list of things as

888
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 1: well as just some overall information about the the case.

889
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 1: I actually I believe they're going to be digitizing making

890
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 1: some of it available digitally over the next few months.

891
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: So depending on how quickly people are listening to this,

892
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,720
Speaker 1: there may be more stuff there. At the very bottom

893
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 1: of the page of that special Collection of Betty Barney Hill,

894
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 1: there is a picture of the alien bust if you

895
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 1: want to go and see what that looks like. So

896
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 1: if you want to do that, you know, if you

897
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 1: want to learn more about this story, then just listen

898
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 1: to Strange Arrivals. That would be my recommendation. Uh. We

899
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,839
Speaker 1: kind of talked about the experience, the sonic experience you're

900
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 1: gonna get in that show. Um, we really think it's

901
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:49,360
Speaker 1: worth your time. It feels like you're there. There's like

902
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:53,839
Speaker 1: some recreations that have been done correct where it makes

903
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 1: you feel like you're with Betty and Barney, um, and

904
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 1: you're aren't there actual isn't their actual hypnosis tape in

905
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: the show too? Yeah, there's a in a couple of instances,

906
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 1: we do have the actual hypnosis tape um that we play. Uh,

907
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: there's a part where Betty's talking about being taken from

908
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 1: the car and being brought aboard the ship, um Barney

909
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 1: experiencing uh the UFO in the in the in the field. Wow. Yeah,

910
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 1: So if you want to do that? What should what

911
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: should people do to find you? And Strange arrivals? Toby, So,

912
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: strange arrivals, uh, you know, should be available on whatever

913
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 1: podcast app you use. Uh, if you want to, uh

914
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 1: get in touch with me, I'm on Twitter at Toby

915
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 1: Ball n H and my website is Toby ball dot com. Awesome. Well, hey,

916
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,360
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us and talking about

917
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 1: this really really interesting case. I'm glad that you're making

918
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 1: the show you're making because I want to know more

919
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 1: and I'm sure a lot of us do. Agreed. Agreed,

920
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 1: And also thanks for the solid Outer Limits and Twilight

921
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 1: Zone Rex in this episode. And if you can, I

922
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 1: don't know if you can see my background, but I

923
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 1: changed it to the uh hocus Pocus and Frisbee alien

924
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 1: kind of scheme mask looking dude, but he really does

925
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 1: have the two kind of almond shaped eyes and the

926
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: two little nostrils. Actually, now I'm noticing which I think

927
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: is a pretty key part of the gray face facial structure.

928
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 1: So I'm actually kind of on board with this having

929
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 1: been an influence for for those descriptions now that I'm

930
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 1: looking at it. Yeah, you check it out online. Uh,

931
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: you can if you put into Google that they've got

932
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 1: pictures of it. It's you know, it's getting there. It's

933
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 1: getting there, and we are getting to the end of

934
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: today's episode. Please check out Strange Arrivals. Don't take our

935
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 1: word for it, experience it yourself wherever podcasts are available.

936
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 1: We also like to hear your stories about allegations of

937
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: extraterrestrial activity at UFO Sightings. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter,

938
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 1: and Instagram. We are conspiracy stuff on most of those

939
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 1: conspiracy stuff show on Instagram. If you don't want to

940
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 1: use the social media, because come on, we all know

941
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 1: what happens with the social media. We joke about it

942
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 1: all the time, and our n s a intern definitely

943
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 1: you know, appreciates these jokes, I'm sure every week. But

944
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 1: if you want to give us a call, we are

945
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 1: one eight three three st d w y t K.

946
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 1: You can leave a message, talk to us about this episode,

947
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: about an idea you've got for an upcoming episode, anything

948
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 1: you want to do, just give us a call and

949
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 1: leave a message. And if you don't want to do

950
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 1: any of that, you can only send us a good

951
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 1: old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i heart radio

952
00:58:44,880 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 1: dot com. H Stuff they Don't Want You to Know

953
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 1: is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts

954
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

955
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:14,040
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