1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello and Happy Friday. Am Holly Frye and 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson. We talked about al Tina Shanazzi 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: this week. We sure did. I highly recommend that documentary 5 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: to anybody who is interested in more about her. It's 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: called Altina. Here's what's really interesting about it to me. 7 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: I got it kind of late in the game for 8 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: a behind the scenes I was feeling a little under 9 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: the weather this earlier this week, and I didn't finish 10 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: the episode in time for our regular recording, which worked 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 1: out great because it gave it time for this documentary 12 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: to finally get to me, and so I had extra stuff, 13 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: which was great. But the thing that's really interesting about 14 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: it is that I think because it was made by 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: members of her family who knew her, they skip over 16 00:00:55,480 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: a lot of key moments in her life just because 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: I think they think everybody knows that or like that 18 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: seems like, you know, of course everybody knows that she's 19 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: doing this at this time. But then it means that 20 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: the whole thing is fleshed out with a lot of 21 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: other stuff that you don't get in other places, which 22 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 1: is great. I will say this too. Both her ex 23 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: husband Charlie and her husband at the time of her death, Tino, 24 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: are interviewed in it for long periods of time, and 25 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: you know, they both speak so lovingly about her, and 26 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: I feel like she is a person that it might 27 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: have been easy when we look at the facts of 28 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: her relationships and how she you know, transferred from one 29 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: person to another after having an affair, et cetera, and 30 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: think negatively about her. These people did not, like her 31 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: ex husband, Charlie talked about her with such love and 32 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: reverence and never any like bitterness about it, which is 33 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: really interesting. And I don't know if that's to to 34 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: who she was. Yeah, you just if you loved her, 35 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: you knew she had a free spirit element to her 36 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: and that was part of the deal. But it was 37 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: really quite a sweet, sweet thing to see her sisters. Yeah, 38 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: we don't know much about them, no, because she didn't 39 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: seem to like them all that much. Like she actually 40 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 1: kind of says something really mean about one of her sisters, 41 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 1: Like basically they were more interested in continuing this sort 42 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: of life they were raised in. They sure they wanted 43 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: to marry well and be society wives and like, Okay, 44 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: that's fine, although she kind of suggests that one really 45 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: turned into quite a piece of work. But they're like 46 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: left out. I don't know if they were no contact 47 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: or low contact or what, but they don't seem to 48 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: be involved. Yeah. I can't imagine that. If your life 49 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 1: involved a mansion and then it involved an entire floor 50 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 1: of a hotel, it might be really hard to imagine 51 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: a different life than that being satisfying. Yeah, not to 52 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: excuse any kind of behavior, I just like, yeah, I 53 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: think you just have a different point of view on 54 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: how the world works. And yeah, I mean Altina is 55 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: the outlier who was like, no, I'd like to get 56 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: a job and do some stuff. I know, I'm fine. 57 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 1: It's also interesting in a situation like that documentary, where 58 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: you get different perspectives to hear how differently people perceived 59 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: her as a mother. A lot of people are like, 60 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: I don't know why she ever had kids. She didn't 61 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: seem that didn't seem to fit with her life. She 62 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: didn't really seem to want kids, although others are like, 63 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: she adored those boys, they were her everything. It's a 64 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: very weird, you know, the way that anybody especially if 65 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: you have like a in any kind of conflicted relationship 66 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: with a parent, you know. I know I've had that. 67 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: Like I often feel like my dad is not very 68 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: enthusiastic about me. But then I'll talk to one of 69 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: his friends and they're like, no, he sings your praises, 70 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: And I'm like, are you being nice to me? Or 71 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: do we just have a very different you know? So 72 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: I think that's part of it. I will say. She 73 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: her first husband, Marris Sanders, who died pretty young. It 74 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: sounds as though he really had to grapple with alcoholism, 75 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: but she does speak of him. Even though she says 76 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: he was a terrible husband to her, she is very 77 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: quick to point out that he was actually a very 78 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: good father and that, you know, once they were living separately, 79 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: he would call the kids every single night and read 80 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: them their bedtime story over the phone, which is sort 81 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: of sweet. I promised that I would talk about a 82 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 1: story involving the mob. Yeah, and so it sounded like 83 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: a fun story involved it is fun It's funny, okay, Okay, 84 00:04:55,839 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: So when she had her sunglasses factory in Los Angeles, 85 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: she tells the story in the documentary, and it's really funny. 86 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: That this guy. These two guys came by one day 87 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: and they were kind of like they were basically doing 88 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: the mob shakedown. They were like, this is a nice 89 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: little place. She got here, be ashamed. If something happened 90 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: to it, we could protect you. She did not understand 91 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: what was going on at all. She was like, I 92 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: don't no, I'm good. I think we're fine. Like she 93 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: was not didn't. It wasn't that she was like, I'm 94 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: not playing your game. She did not understand that the 95 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: game was being played. I love that and that. It 96 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: wasn't until later that she realized what had happened, and 97 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: that was probably a factor in the shutting down of 98 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: the factory. Like she already hated it, but it was 99 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: like and if I got to deal with this, this 100 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: is just one more thing I don't want to handle. 101 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: So that is a very interesting thing. Her husband, Charlie, 102 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: who was working on the MLK documentary with her, was 103 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: so clearly committed to that cause, and he talks about them. 104 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: I think they were in Alabama. They went to church 105 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: services that doctor King was giving as a guest pastor, 106 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: and they spent time with him and his family and 107 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: like their circle, and he was like I didn't know 108 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: how they were going to perceive us, Like here is 109 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: you know, my wife, a rich Jewish artist, and me 110 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: a political scientist who is the whitest of white guys, 111 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: coming in and saying we want to help tell your story, 112 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: and we didn't know how we were going to be greeted. 113 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: And he said that that community was more welcoming to 114 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: them than many of the white social circles that they 115 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: ran in, and he was so touched by it, which 116 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: was lovely. He was just a sweet story. He seems 117 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: like the sweetest human on the planet. Truthfully. Her fourth husband, 118 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: Celestino Tino, clearly adored her and admired her, but he 119 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: gave this quote that was really really fascinating to me. 120 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: He said, I always remained her employee. I was married 121 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 1: to her, but I wasn't her husband. I was her employee, 122 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: companion and guardian. And like it's I think part of 123 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: it is, and keep it. I want to keep in 124 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: mind too. He is a Spanish speaker, so everything we're 125 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: getting on that is through subtitles, so I don't know 126 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: if there's a translation thing, because I don't my Spanish 127 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: is not in any way to a point where I 128 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: could pick that out. It seems like it's an issue 129 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: of reverence for him. There was such a big age gap, 130 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: and he also noted that he never used the informal 131 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: oh yeah address of her in Spanish, always the formal, 132 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: even when they had been together for years and years 133 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: and years. It's very interesting to me. She commanded a 134 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: lot of respect, and she seems super interesting. I am 135 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: floored by again the casual way she would just be like, well, 136 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: I just really wanted to have a lot of sex, 137 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: and I needed to. I needed to have that affair. 138 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to have an affair, now what I 139 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: will admit right, this is a thing that I don't 140 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: want to sound judgy, but that's like a thing that 141 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: like gets my hackles up. I'm like, no cheaters, no, 142 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: But I couldn't even find myself disliking her. She seemed 143 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: to see it also clearly, right, Uh, she fascinates me utterly. 144 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. I didn't. I mean, I it's I 145 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: never knew about all of her activism because it doesn't 146 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: come up in the little like she admitted the cat 147 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 1: eye glasses. Yeah, it makes her sound like a cool, 148 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: artsy little kind of you know, a chick on the 149 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: arts scene in the thirties of New York, like, oh, 150 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: how quaint, and it's like, no, she did a lot 151 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: of very risky stuff politically throughout her life, like the 152 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: fact that she signed thirteen f A. Davids for people 153 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: and was basically like, if they do something wrong, that's 154 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: on me, and that's fine. We got to get him 155 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: out of Europe. Very very bold. The New York Times 156 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: ad saying that the war was wrong. Very bold. You know, 157 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: as we discussed in those episodes and in that behind 158 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: the scenes, that was a divisive time in the country 159 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: where people really were tooth and nail over the issue 160 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: of the war. Yeah, So for her and her husband 161 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: to take such a strong stance on it in writing 162 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: was a lot. Yeah. She just seemed very She was 163 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: confident in her convictions, which I have to admire, even 164 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: if she wasn't maybe always great about treating other people 165 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: with respect. When it came to right, she wanted to 166 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: have an affair with right. I of course cannot imagine 167 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: having a prolonged affair with my best friend's spouse. I mean, 168 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: I can't imagine having a prolonged a fair full stop. 169 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: But I really ca not imagine having a prolonged affair 170 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: and then having social outings with that person's spouse as 171 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: though everything was fine, right, right, And I have to wonder, 172 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: like did the wife Surely she must have picked it, Yeah, 173 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: I kind of part of me is like, you know, 174 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: if she had lived in a time with different mores 175 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: around sex and relationships, but at the same time, she 176 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: lived through the seventies, right, you know, we're not talking 177 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 1: about someone who lived at a time when things, I mean, 178 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: part of her life more restrained than maybe now. But like, 179 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: I can imagine a world in which she was just 180 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: like openly polyamorous and it did not feel like a 181 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: series of affairs that then ended marriages and started new ones. Yeah. 182 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: I mean, here's what becomes really intriguing to me, right 183 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: I All of the behavior and all of the risky 184 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: things she did were definitely possible because she lived a 185 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: life of extraordinary privilege. Right. Sure, if everybody turned on 186 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: her because of her political opinion, I don't think she 187 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: would have cared. She would have been fine. She's like, great, 188 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: I got money, I'm going to hang out my house 189 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: and make art cool. So that's part of it. It 190 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: was risky, but it wasn't the same level of risky 191 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: as it would be for other people. But I also 192 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: think that offers her this odd sense of remove when 193 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: it came to having affairs and whatnot. It would be like, well, yes, socially, 194 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: this will blow up, but my life will be fine. 195 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: I can still go about my I think it may 196 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: have given her subconsciously. I don't think she would have 197 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: been conscious of it, but I think it gave her 198 00:11:55,400 --> 00:12:00,040 Speaker 1: like a remove from concern about the morality of it. 199 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 1: Was like, well, I have money, I'm fine, I'm good. 200 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 1: I can just keep making I'm gonna paint. I would 201 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: lose a friend, but so it's okay. It's wild to me. 202 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: It's very moment on many levels, but she is an intriguing, 203 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: intriguing person. It is also funny. I will say how 204 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: many of the people interviewed in that documentary talk about 205 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: these aspects of her personality that were maybe not the easiest, 206 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: but they still talk about her with so much love 207 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: and adoration that she seems like she must have been 208 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: a truly wonderful human who, just like other humans, is 209 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: flawed in variety of ways. And that one is a 210 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 1: pretty arly problematic flaw for a lot of people. I'm 211 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: not trying to brush it into the rug, but that 212 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: they just all loved her so much. It was like, 213 00:12:55,280 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: well that's Altina. Yeah. Yeah, we mentioned too that she 214 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: went by Tina a lot of the time, right. I 215 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: found myself having a hard time calling her that, which 216 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: I had written into the outline in some places, and 217 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: then I just stopped doing it. And then when I 218 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: saw that documentary and her husband Tino talking about how 219 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: he never addressed her at the informal, I was like, 220 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: I think I understand this a little bit. Sure, it 221 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: doesn't feel right to be so familiar with her for 222 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: some reason, and apparently even the people closest to her 223 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: felt that. It's very cute. One of her neighbors from 224 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: Santa Fe talks about they had she and Tino had 225 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: their house, and then down the hill a couple houses 226 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: away they had bought another house that they made their 227 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: art studio, and how every morning they would walk down 228 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: the hill hand in hand together to go to work, 229 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: and how charming everyone found it because they were obviously 230 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: very very deeply devoted to one another, which I find 231 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: really interesting because that's the one marriage that all of 232 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: her social circle was like, what are you doing? This 233 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense, Like this isn't do you just 234 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: want a younger man for the stamina, Like what's going 235 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: on here? But they clearly were emotionally completely connected, which 236 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: is really lovely. Listen, you gotta try several times sometimes 237 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: to get it right. I guess she did. In the end. 238 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: Her last marriage seems like it was very good, and 239 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: her second marriage I think was very very good. Had 240 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: he not died, I'm sure they would have been together 241 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: for the rest of their lives. Right. Yeah, Anyway, al 242 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: Tina Shnazi, you intrigue and fascinate me, and I can't 243 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: help but admire you, even as I make kind of 244 00:14:47,160 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: cringey faces about some of the things you do. We 245 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: talked about the Boston Floating Hospital this week. We did 246 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: so my little trip to just look at the Boston 247 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: Molasses flood plaque. I don't remember if I've told this 248 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: story on the show before, but it's there's two plaques. Now. 249 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: The initial one was not a very big plaque. It 250 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: was a small green plaque that used to be affixed 251 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: to a stone wall that was in kind of a 252 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: green space area. That space has been redone. There's I 253 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: think a baseball field there. There's Botchy courts there. Now 254 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: that sign it's still on the block from the stone wall, 255 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: but the wall is gone so instead of it being 256 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: it was a low wall, so it was kind of 257 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: like calf height before, huh, And now it's like the 258 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: just the one block from the wall down at ground level. 259 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: So I walked around for a period of time, like 260 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: I had the spot marked on Google Maps or whatever, 261 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: but I was like, where is it though, And when 262 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: I finally found it, I was like that, I see 263 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: why this was so difficult for me to find. The 264 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: other sign is a newer sign, and it is one 265 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: of a series of signs that has been put up 266 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: by the Friends of the Boston Harbor Walk and the 267 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: Friends of the Boston Harbor Walk sign about the floating 268 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: hospital is what inspired this. That is also where I 269 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: read the quote about where they went and stopping by 270 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: the lighthouse for the light housekeeper to play the fog 271 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: horn at them. So sweet, it was very sweet. So 272 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: I was very glad that I just, you know, I 273 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: don't remember exactly what I was doing, but I had 274 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: a little time that I didn't want to just sit 275 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: there in North Station doing nothing. It was a pretty date. 276 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: This is a pretty area to walk around, right there 277 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: by the water. Something I found in the research that 278 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 1: I just found so funny that I'm now going to 279 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: share with all of you is a dispute from the 280 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: pages of the American Journal of Nursing circa nineteen eleven, 281 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: so the first letter to the editor, or yes, the 282 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: letter to the editor from the American Journal of Nursing. 283 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: It's titled Boston Floating Hospital, Dear Editor. In the June 284 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 1: number of the journal. I read an advertisement of the 285 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: Boston Floating Hospital and went there this last summer to 286 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: take a postgraduate course. There was one thing which I 287 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: was surprised to find, and that was that the nurses 288 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: were expected to go from the hotel where they had 289 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: their rooms, down on the street car to the dock 290 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: in their uniforms. It did seem to me that, after 291 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: so much has been written in our journals, and so 292 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: much has been said in our county and state associations 293 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: about the nurse appearing on the street in the sick 294 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: rem uniform, that this state of things should not be allowed. 295 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: A great many of the nurses did object. It was 296 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: very hot, and often too hot to wear coats, but 297 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: some of us did swelter and wore our long coats. 298 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: I wondered after I got there, if the journal knew 299 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: of the state of affairs, if it would advertise such 300 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: a hospital. Of course, conditions differ in different parts of 301 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 1: the country. I know that in our state we are 302 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 1: very careful in admitting graduates of hospitals to our state association, 303 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: where nurses are allowed to go on the street in uniform. 304 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: Mary I. Hall. So. That was followed by a note 305 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: from the editor published just below it, which said, while 306 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: we disapprove on general principles of the wearing of the 307 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: uniform on the street, we should hardly consider this a 308 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: vital question in considering the practical value of the graduate 309 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: experience to be gained from the course as advertised. We 310 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,479 Speaker 1: have yet to hear of a hospital or training school 311 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: anywhere in the world where everything is above criticism. But 312 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 1: it would seem a simple matter and an improvement to 313 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: set apart a state room where street costumes could be 314 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:27,360 Speaker 1: exchanged for uniforms. Editor So. A couple months later, the 315 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: following ran in the American Journal of Nursing, titled a 316 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: Reply from the Boston Floating Hospital a B above. I 317 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 1: was very much surprised to read Miss Hall's letter published 318 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: in the January Journal. In the first place, it is 319 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: not compulsory for the nurses to wear their uniforms on 320 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: the street cars, but it is allowed so that their 321 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: hours will not be any longer than possible, as conditions 322 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 1: are such that it is necessary for us to travel 323 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: over a good part of the city to get a 324 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: place where the nurse can live comfortably. Personally, I object 325 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 1: very much to a uniform being worn on the street, 326 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: and so have former superintendents. The rules for uniforms on 327 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: the wards are skirts must be at least three inches 328 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: from the floor, sleeves turned back to the elbows, and 329 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: an over apron covering the entire dress, and never worn 330 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: outside of the wards. Miss Hall failed to mention these things, 331 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: which surely looks as though she was trying to misrepresent 332 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: a hospital which granted her a diploma which she seemed 333 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: quite anxious to secure. Very truly, yours, Sarah A. Egan, 334 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: r and Superintendent of Nurses. I found that whole exchange 335 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: so catty and hilarious. I love it. I love it. 336 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: I took pictures of it with my phone on the 337 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: screen of my computer and put it in my group chat. 338 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: Yeah it's a good one. I have so many thoughts. Yeah, 339 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 1: are you gonna Are you gonna share them? Are they 340 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: inside thoughts? Some of them are inside thoughts just because 341 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: they're not suitable for this podcast because they have But 342 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: I also like, we we know these people? Oh sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, 343 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: who will? And I know, listen, I don't know what 344 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: goes on in someone else's head. The older I get, 345 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 1: the more I realize that I feel like my perception 346 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 1: of the world is often very different from the people 347 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: around me, So I won I never know if this 348 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 1: is a case where someone purposefully is omitting something or 349 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: if they got some idea in their head that was 350 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: wrong and never sought any more information to see if 351 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: that was accurate or not. But it does. I mean, 352 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: we know those people that just want to be upset 353 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: about a thing, and so they will run with whatever 354 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:21,959 Speaker 1: variation of the facts supports their state of upsetness and 355 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: just kind of put the pedal to the metal on 356 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: that and like that is the situation. The end closed, 357 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: Cat and I and then the response makes me think, 358 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: maybe she was kind of a pill while she was 359 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: there in her program and they were like, ugh, this 360 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: chick again. Yeah, I found it all hilarious. There is 361 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: a book about the Boston Floating Hospital. It is called 362 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: The Boston Floating Hospital How a Boston Harbor Barge Changed 363 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: the Course of Pediatric Medicine. It's a little more than 364 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 1: ten years old now, I think. Living in the Boston area, 365 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 1: I was able to go check a copy of it 366 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: out from the library and it is a nice little book. 367 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: It's not particularly long. It has lots of detail that 368 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: we really didn't get into hear. Some of it was 369 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: just like we didn't need a bunch of specific details 370 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: about specific seasons of the different years that the ship 371 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: went out. A couple of things are. One thing in 372 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: particular kind of struck me that I thought about talking 373 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: about and I didn't, and that is that we said 374 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: that this was a very popular charity. Understandably a hospital 375 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: that's helping save sick babies, Yeah, who does that? It's 376 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 1: very charming. But in eighteen ninety five, so early in 377 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,959 Speaker 1: the history of the Boston Floating Hospital, some people apparently 378 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: came to the hospital and they suggested staging a production 379 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 1: of Cinderella to benefit the hospital. They did do the play, 380 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: but then they absconded with the money and did not 381 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: actually give it to the hospital. Yeah uh what jerks, Listen. 382 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily an afterlife believer, but if there is one, 383 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: I hope they were the worst version. They literally stole 384 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: from a children's a sick right children's charity. Yeah, yeah, ghastly. 385 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: I also, the book was sort of the last thing 386 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: that I looked at in many things of looking at 387 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: for this episode, And so there are some things, right, 388 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: I'm sure like I was not being the absolute most attentive, 389 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: and I am not fully clear on when exactly Rufus 390 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: Toby was no longer part of the hospital, because like 391 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: his he was in reports from the hospital with titles 392 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: like chairman or a chairman of the board and things 393 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: like that for a period of years and then he's 394 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: not listed anymore. But as far as I know, he 395 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: was still living. And I don't really know what the 396 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: story is there and whether there is a story, whether 397 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: it was you know, just sort of the natural progression 398 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: of going from a ship where they were doing medical care. 399 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: But also a big focus was we're getting into the 400 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: fresh air and away from the heat and the pollution 401 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: to being a hospital with you know, pathology labs and 402 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: a pharmacy and a medical staff and research going on, 403 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 1: and like whether having a minister with obviously heard in 404 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: the right place but no medical experience, like didn't make 405 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: sense to be in that role anymore. And I don't 406 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: really know. And maybe he just got to retirement age. 407 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: I mean maybe so. And I I got to the 408 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 1: point where I said we should record this episode now 409 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: and stopped trying to dig up the answer. Sometimes you 410 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: have to do that. You often get my outlines in 411 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: the dead of night because there's always part of me 412 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: it's like I got to look up that other thing, 413 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: and I gotta find that other that one last I 414 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: just want to make sure that oh I still can't 415 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: find it, and eventually I have to be like I'm 416 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: going to bed. Yeah. Yeah. So that is my periodic 417 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: installment of a Save some Baby story, as every single 418 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: day brings multiple new, alarming, upsetting things, some of which 419 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: just make me want to throw up. Yep. So spending 420 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: some time about babies on a boat a little bit 421 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: of a comfort in this moment. Whatever is happening on 422 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: your weekends, I hope you have some comfort in this moment. 423 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: Whatever is your version of a story about saving babies, 424 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: I hope you have some of that in your life 425 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: right now. We will be back with a Saturday classic 426 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: tomorrow and something brand new on Monday. Stuff you Missed 427 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more 428 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 429 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.