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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stephanomics, the podcast that brings the

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Speaker 1: COVID global economy to you. And this week we're changing

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Speaker 1: the frame. I'm not going to be bringing you on

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Speaker 1: the ground insights from Atlanta or Madrid or anywhere else.

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Speaker 1: Because I had an opportunity to ask two of the

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Speaker 1: biggest names in economics where they thought the world was heading.

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Speaker 1: And I found a fascinating contrast between them that I'd

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Speaker 1: like to share with you. It wasn't in their basic

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Speaker 1: analysis of what was happening, because they both saw a

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Speaker 1: lot of the same worrying global trends, and they both

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Speaker 1: thought that many of them were likely to be exacerbated

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Speaker 1: by the COVID crisis. The difference laying whether they thought

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Speaker 1: there was anything anyone, any government, any of us might

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Speaker 1: be able to do to put us on a better course.

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Speaker 1: I talked first to new Real Rabini, professor of economics

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Speaker 1: at New York University, and then it was Nobel Prize

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Speaker 1: winning economist professor Joe Stigletts of Columbia University. It was

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Speaker 1: all part of Bloomberg's Global invest Conference, which this year

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Speaker 1: was held virtually over several days and multiple time zones.

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Speaker 1: I'll let you hear for yourself, which of those two

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Speaker 1: was more upbeat about our capacity to change our fate.

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Speaker 1: Let's just say you won't be surprised to hear Rubini's

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Speaker 1: nickname is Dr Do. In the third quarter of this year,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be a recovery after a very severe

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Speaker 1: session in the first and the second court. So for

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Speaker 1: a quarter or two he may look like a v

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Speaker 1: sha recovery. But the way I different from consensus is

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Speaker 1: that consensus believes that by next year the recovery is

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Speaker 1: going to continue, that growth is going to be something

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Speaker 1: like six percent in the United States, three times as

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Speaker 1: much potential, while I see the recovery being strong on

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Speaker 1: in the third quarter and phazically out by the fourth

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Speaker 1: quarter and and becoming very unemic by the next year.

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Speaker 1: And the main reason is not just the fact we're

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Speaker 1: gonna have a second or third wave, but if you

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Speaker 1: think about it, after the global financial crisis, firms that

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Speaker 1: were firing workers and they reire them in a way

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Speaker 1: that was different from the past. Not formal jobs, not

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Speaker 1: full time jobs with good wages and good salaries and benefits,

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Speaker 1: but big workers, part time workers, hourly workers, freelancers, contractors,

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Speaker 1: this time around, we have shared already something like between

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Speaker 1: twenty and thirty million jobs. And when the readings don't occur,

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Speaker 1: that type of precarious job is going to become the norm.

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Speaker 1: Most firms are highly leverage. They have to survive and

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Speaker 1: thrive by cutting costs and saving more. How they're gonna

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Speaker 1: do it by reducing labor costs and first firing people

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Speaker 1: and then rehiring them in a more flexible way. The

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Speaker 1: trouble is that what's my labor cost is somebody else's

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Speaker 1: labor income. And as the corporate sector deleverages by spending less,

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Speaker 1: saving or and doing less capacs, then there'll be a

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Speaker 1: more unemic recovery of labor income because there is more

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Speaker 1: precarious jobs, will be a very large unemployment rate. And

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Speaker 1: even the households have to be more cautious. They have

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Speaker 1: to be more riscoverse. Uss households have less than four

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Speaker 1: hundred dollars of liquid cash in the case of an emergency,

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Speaker 1: that be more risk, aversion that implies less spending, more saving,

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Speaker 1: less capital spending less with retential investment. And that's why

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Speaker 1: the RECOVID is going to become like a you the

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Speaker 1: thing that people are pricing in expectation for acovery of

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Speaker 1: growth and learning that are totally not consistent with the

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Speaker 1: fact that a COVID of the economy is going to

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Speaker 1: be a you rather than a be. Just to push

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Speaker 1: back a bit on on some of that you what

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Speaker 1: you've described, one way of putting it would be that

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Speaker 1: there is a system that came into this that had flaws,

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Speaker 1: many of which have inspired have inspired populism, rising inequality,

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Speaker 1: and you believe that the response to the crisis will

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Speaker 1: be exact acerbate those things. And that's that's certainly what

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Speaker 1: many people are forecasting, that we're going to see a

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Speaker 1: further further inequality and a further damaging of employment rights

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Speaker 1: and labor income, which will ultimately in it kind of

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Speaker 1: marks this way seeds that sows the seeds of its

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Speaker 1: own destruction. But there is a view that says, you

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Speaker 1: know what, this has been a wake up call, this crisis,

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Speaker 1: and even the people who doubted before that you need

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Speaker 1: major reform to make this a more inclusive world are

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Speaker 1: now going to realize they have to do something different.

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Speaker 1: Do you give any credence to that, whether in the

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Speaker 1: US or anywhere else, that actually you could have a

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Speaker 1: reset coming out of this that helps to slow down

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Speaker 1: or even reverse some of those trends that you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Many firms right now are either bankrupt on the verge

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Speaker 1: of bankruptcy. They have to do and take action to

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Speaker 1: try to survive. And what are the actions that have have

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Speaker 1: been taken United States? We last in the United State

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Speaker 1: in the last few months, many more jobs that we

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Speaker 1: created in the last decade, depending on how you measure,

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Speaker 1: they've had between twenty and thirty million people have lost

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Speaker 1: their jobs, and the corporate sector first fires them, and

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Speaker 1: then when they're gonna be rehiving them, they're gonna do

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Speaker 1: what they've done after the global financial crisis and gig workers, contractors,

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Speaker 1: partime workers, hourly workers, freelancers. That's the reality. I don't

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Speaker 1: see a radical change in the United States in terms

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Speaker 1: of economic policy. Yes, if Trump were to be losing

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Speaker 1: the election, that's and if and if by them were

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Speaker 1: to becoming to power, maybe economic policy are gonna becoming

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Speaker 1: slightly more progressive. But there are major forces, including also technology.

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Speaker 1: The digital dis option is going to imply that over

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Speaker 1: the next few years there will be many more jobs.

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Speaker 1: They are being destroyed, not just by globalization, trade, or migration,

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Speaker 1: but by technological innovation that is capital intensive, skilled buyers,

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Speaker 1: and labor saving, there's gonna be is wrapting millions of

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Speaker 1: other jobs, for example, moral commation, more robotics. The fact

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Speaker 1: that's going to be reopened North America not gonna be

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Speaker 1: full of workers, gonna be full of robots. So unless

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Speaker 1: there is a very radical change in economic policies, the

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Speaker 1: trend of globalization, of technology, of the weakness of labor,

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Speaker 1: of unions, and so on, imply that labor is weak,

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Speaker 1: capital is mobile, and the entire system has been essentially

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Speaker 1: one where income has been going on from the workers

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Speaker 1: to capitalists, from wages to profits, and from those who

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Speaker 1: spend more to those who save more. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure that these major trends are going to be reversed

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Speaker 1: anytime soon. Just moving on to the death piece of

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Speaker 1: your of your analysis, I think there's there's been a view,

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Speaker 1: perhaps unspoken, those who have a more optimistic view of

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Speaker 1: the next five to ten years looking and investing the

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Speaker 1: markets on the basis of it that we're either going

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Speaker 1: to have more of the same coming out of this,

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Speaker 1: namely very low inflation, low interest rates. But with that

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Speaker 1: the affordability of this much higher debt stock corporate and

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Speaker 1: public debt around the world, or we might get inflation

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Speaker 1: and that might cause them bumps down the road, but

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Speaker 1: in the met it will at least make that debt

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Speaker 1: easier to grow out from underneath. Your view is actually

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Speaker 1: that that's that's just too optimistic that you can have

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Speaker 1: the inflation without really resolving the debt issue. Is that right? Well,

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Speaker 1: mynew is that certain? In the short run, I agree

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Speaker 1: that there are more deflationary rather than inflationary pressures. There

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Speaker 1: is a massive slack in goods markets, in labor markets,

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Speaker 1: in real estate, in energy, and commodities. So this year,

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Speaker 1: next year there will be low flationary and deflationary pressures.

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Speaker 1: But what I'm pointing out is there were two major

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Speaker 1: forces that kept inflation on law for the last decade.

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Speaker 1: One was globalization, and now we're in a process of diglobalization.

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Speaker 1: And the second one was major technological innovation that we're

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Speaker 1: also increasing productivity reducing costs. And right now we're gonna

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Speaker 1: have a digital wall being built between US and China,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna have two separate AIS, two separate internet

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Speaker 1: to separate five g's two separate telecom system and so

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Speaker 1: on and so on. And for example, we may for

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Speaker 1: strategic reason not want to use the Y Way five G,

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Speaker 1: but the Y five gs thirty percent cheaper than the

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Speaker 1: one of Nokia and Rickson and twenty and more productive.

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Speaker 1: So you're gonna install a five G network, there's going

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Speaker 1: to be not hy way, it's gonna be fifty more

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Speaker 1: expensive than before. That's a negative supply shock. So both

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Speaker 1: technology and diglobalization imply negative supply shocks. Now, last time around,

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Speaker 1: when we had negative supply shots and we had easy money,

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Speaker 1: easy fiscal in the seventies with the two add sharks

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Speaker 1: of seventy three and seventy nine, when they that with inflation, stagnation,

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Speaker 1: recession and inflation. So either this that become unsustainable, or

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Speaker 1: if we're gonna try to wipe them out within inflation,

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Speaker 1: then we're gonna have a trap of stagflation. Historically, people

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Speaker 1: who have best against integration have tended to be wrong.

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Speaker 1: Many people would say, looking at the trends we've had

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Speaker 1: over the last few years, even if globalization slows down,

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Speaker 1: it can't it's not going to reverse and it could

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Speaker 1: still continue to cause bring enormous benefits that particularly perhaps

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Speaker 1: developing countries and countries across Asia especially. So what is

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Speaker 1: it about now that you think is different from the

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Speaker 1: other times we're declared the end of integration. I'm not

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Speaker 1: predicting for the time being a hot war between US

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Speaker 1: and China. I think that given the symmetry of power

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Speaker 1: conventional and conventional between US and China, that's unlikely. But

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Speaker 1: we're seeing every day an escalation of this cold work,

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Speaker 1: and that's already leading to a process of the globalization,

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Speaker 1: and it's not just the globalization on trade, but most

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Speaker 1: importantly on technology. And today those five G networks are

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Speaker 1: running our phones, but tomorrow they're gonna be running our

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Speaker 1: system of saying how Connor's vehicle, making sure the millions

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Speaker 1: of them don't eat each other. And tomorrow pretty much

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Speaker 1: every piece of consumer electronic in the Internet of Things

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Speaker 1: is gonna have a five G chip, even your lowly

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Speaker 1: Chinese toaster or coffee machine or microwave. And therefore, if

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Speaker 1: you're not going to use the five G of China,

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Speaker 1: you're not gonna also want to use the toasters or

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Speaker 1: microwaves of coffee machines of China, because they're potentially listening

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Speaker 1: device if you believe that there is a factor from

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Speaker 1: y Wesh five G to the Chinese government. So that's

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Speaker 1: where the war on tech becomes also a war on trade,

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Speaker 1: and it's going to only escalate over time. Unfortunately, I

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Speaker 1: think that's the trend we are facing. Of course, it's

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Speaker 1: not black and white. I'm not saying there's not going

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Speaker 1: to be any trade of any sort, but we're in

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Speaker 1: a trend towards gradual but persistent deglobalization. Couldn't they be

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Speaker 1: good news here? I mean, many people are investing into

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Speaker 1: high tech companies that seem to do fantastically well. It

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Speaker 1: seems odd to say we're going to have lots of

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Speaker 1: technological to change, but it's not going to produce growth

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Speaker 1: and it's not going to produce income for so someone

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Speaker 1: which might then be redistributed. Is there no good news here? Well,

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Speaker 1: the differences in the previous Industrial revolution jobs went from

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Speaker 1: agriculture into the industrial sector, and from the industrial sector

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Speaker 1: to the service sector. But what's happening right now is

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Speaker 1: not only that the factory of the future is going

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Speaker 1: to be a bunch of robberts and machine and just

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Speaker 1: maybe one person manning these chines, but now the same

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Speaker 1: process of AI, robotics automation is completely disrupting tons of

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Speaker 1: jobs in the service sector, from retail to transportation, to education,

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Speaker 1: to government services to pretty much anything under the sun.

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Speaker 1: So those who say we're going to create other jobs

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Speaker 1: is not clear what they're going to be. Those jobs

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Speaker 1: in the future are going to be created. For every

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Speaker 1: job that is created by Amazon, there is an average

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Speaker 1: ten jobs in retails are disappearing. So I think that's

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Speaker 1: a difference compared to the past. And then for the

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Speaker 1: time being, all these technology of disruption has not led

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Speaker 1: at the macro level to data they're showing an increasing productivity. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: of course, if there's gonna be a significant technological disruption,

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Speaker 1: there may be an increasing productivity. The economic pie is

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Speaker 1: going to become larger. But since technological innovation is capital intensive,

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Speaker 1: skill bias and labor saving those one financial real cave,

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Speaker 1: they are gonna do well. Those that are in the

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Speaker 1: top twent of distribution of skills, education, human capital gonna

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Speaker 1: do well. But if you are a blue collar worker

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Speaker 1: with law skill or medium skill. But now even if

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Speaker 1: you are a white collar worker with law skills or

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Speaker 1: medium skills, your income and your job is going to

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Speaker 1: be disrupted completely by technology. And therefore the issue is

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Speaker 1: not where the economic pie is bigger, but what's going

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Speaker 1: to be the distribution of the benefits and distribution of

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Speaker 1: barns are going to go to capital and those were very,

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Speaker 1: very high skilled and everybody else is going to be

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Speaker 1: left behind, and therefore the tension and the political backlash

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Speaker 1: against it's gonna become severe. So the pie is gonna

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Speaker 1: be bigger, the distribution of the benefit is going to

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Speaker 1: become even more uneven. Mm hm okay, Well, a newer revealing,

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Speaker 1: I guess. So the answer to is there any good news,

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Speaker 1: it's very it's it's hard for you to see the

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Speaker 1: good news. But we will be seeing if Professor Joe

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Speaker 1: Stigletts has a different perspective later on. But in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: new Rabini, thank you very much for joining us. So

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Speaker 1: that was Mauriel Rabini at the Bloomberg Global invest Conference.

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Speaker 1: Joe stiglets was next, and you might remember I interviewed

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Speaker 1: him about the future of capitalism last year for Stephanomics.

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Speaker 1: I started by asking whether he shared Dr Doom's gloomy diagnosis. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think the critical issue is what policy governments pursue.

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Speaker 1: The second critical issue, of course, is the pandemic itself,

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Speaker 1: and we don't know when that will be brought under control.

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Speaker 1: But assume that we got that under control, the big

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Speaker 1: issue is how will government policy respond, And we are

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Speaker 1: need to be frank, there's a lot of uncertainty about that.

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Speaker 1: For instinct. One side says we need to provide the

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Speaker 1: unemployed with assurance that we're going to continue the unemployment

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Speaker 1: insurance as long as the pandemic continues. It's what we

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Speaker 1: did in two thousand and eight in the global financial crisis.

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Speaker 1: The other side is much more hesitant to do that.

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Speaker 1: And now, picking up a point that Neuriel emphasized, a

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Speaker 1: big factor dampening the economy is uncertainty, precautionary behavior, and

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Speaker 1: that lack of assurance and the part of government that

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Speaker 1: it will be there is going to exacerbate the kind

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Speaker 1: of uncertainty that's going to lead to limits, limits on

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Speaker 1: consumption and investment. So how can governments confront that head on?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you you're quite right that we've seen this

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Speaker 1: precautionary savings. So how should a government try and get

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Speaker 1: over that problem? Because, of course, as you said, we

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Speaker 1: don't know if there's going to be a second way.

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Speaker 1: We don't know how long this procession is going to be.

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Speaker 1: It's completely rational for businesses and households to hold back.

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Speaker 1: So the first thing is we need to have an

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Speaker 1: assurance that government programs will continue so long as the

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Speaker 1: pandemic continues. You know, in the beginning, back in March,

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Speaker 1: people thought this was going to be a three week lockdown,

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Speaker 1: four week lockdown. Certainly by the beginning of June or

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Speaker 1: the end of July, things would be under control. No

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Speaker 1: one thinks that. Today. We're worried about us second wave,

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Speaker 1: a third wave, a perpetual wave. So we need the

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Speaker 1: assurance UH that the government isn't now providing. Some countries

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Speaker 1: are thinking about more specific ways of what you might

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Speaker 1: be calling collectivizing some of the risk, for instance, telling companies,

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Speaker 1: if you borrow to make an investment and the pandemic continues,

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Speaker 1: we will allow you to extend the payments, so you

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Speaker 1: don't you know, sometimes you're going to want to make

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Speaker 1: those investments, make them now, and we'll bear some of

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Speaker 1: the risk. UH. Some countries have provided for instincts time

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Speaker 1: dated spending vouchers to encourage people to go spend now

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Speaker 1: there's underemployment. From a social point of view, this is good,

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Speaker 1: but we understand your fear about getting in debt and

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Speaker 1: uh this is a way of encouraging spending today. There

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Speaker 1: is a lot of support going to businesses now, but

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Speaker 1: we don't know for sure that that is going to

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Speaker 1: go into investment or even into jobs and a bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: We've looked at how many big companies in the US

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Speaker 1: have been raising bonds very cheaply, raising a trillion dollars

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Speaker 1: worth in so far this year, more than in the

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Speaker 1: whole of last year, on the back of the FED

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Speaker 1: easing policies. But they're also cutting jobs. So do you

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Speaker 1: think there should be more string attached to some of

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Speaker 1: this support. Yes, there was an interesting study that pointed

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Speaker 1: out that particularly the p p P program seems to

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Speaker 1: have had no effect on retaining employment. It was an

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Speaker 1: extraordinarily badly designed program and even worse the implementation, with

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Speaker 1: the money going to those who were most connected to

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Speaker 1: the banks and to those who at least needed UH.

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Speaker 1: The money out. If you know, the government has never

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Speaker 1: spent so much money, and we ought to have a

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Speaker 1: say on how that money is used. It shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: a blank check. Uh. You know, when I was at

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Speaker 1: the World Bank, we always put conditions. I thought sometimes

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Speaker 1: they put too many conditions, but putting certain basic conditions

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Speaker 1: that you retain your employees, that you treat your workers

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Speaker 1: in a decent way, that you move toward green economy. Uh,

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Speaker 1: that we helped, you know, with a vision what kind

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Speaker 1: of an economy do we want emerging from the pandemic?

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Speaker 1: To me, this is one of the my major criticism

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Speaker 1: other programs. The idea behind them was we ought to

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Speaker 1: go back to where we were in January. There were

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Speaker 1: a lot of problems with the American economy and the

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Speaker 1: global economy. In January inequality, health status of Americans was

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Speaker 1: going down when not very not very good. Uh. We

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Speaker 1: hadn't begun the green transition. So there were so many

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Speaker 1: things that we need knew we needed to do. This

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Speaker 1: was an occasion with the government spending so much money

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Speaker 1: to help move our economy along in the right direction.

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Speaker 1: So I guess going back to the longer term, you know,

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Speaker 1: can central banks be part of that longer term answer?

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Speaker 1: Should we? You know, is this the end of an

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Speaker 1: era of independent central banks? That shouldn't be worried so

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Speaker 1: much about inflation, they should be helping to tackle inequality

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Speaker 1: raise wages. What was what's your view? Uh, First, I

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Speaker 1: think there is a limit to what central banks can do,

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Speaker 1: but they can do a lot, so they're really important.

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Speaker 1: I'm very supportive of the broader view that they've seemed

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Speaker 1: to be taken on. I've always criticized them in the

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Speaker 1: past for not taking into account the effects of their policies,

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Speaker 1: for instance, and increasing inequality. They put a big row

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Speaker 1: in increasing wealth inequality, and it seems that today they

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Speaker 1: are taking that more into account, apparently because that's very

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Speaker 1: much related to their main mandate. If you have increasing inequality,

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Speaker 1: you're going to have deficient aggregate demand, so you cannot

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Speaker 1: ignore the impact on inequality. You know, the I m

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Speaker 1: F has put inequality at the center of their agenda,

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Speaker 1: and when they first did Domini extras ka and said,

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Speaker 1: we're doing this because our manding is making sure that

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Speaker 1: global growth is strong, and you can't do that without

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Speaker 1: at least paying some more attention to win equality. Thinking

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Speaker 1: about the whole world, um we've done. Our economists have

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Speaker 1: looked at what response emerging market economies have been able

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Speaker 1: to do. Two COVID compared to the enormous amount of

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Speaker 1: money flowing out of finance ministries around the developed world,

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Speaker 1: and indeed all the central bank money printing, and it's

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Speaker 1: obviously it's a fraction. Most of these emerging market comes

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Speaker 1: have not been able to, if you like, fill the

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Speaker 1: whole that's been left by COVID or might be left

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Speaker 1: by COVID. Now, what are the risks coming out of

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Speaker 1: that for the whole world? But what should we also

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Speaker 1: be trying to What do you think is the best

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Speaker 1: so to that for helping them? Well, we are a

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Speaker 1: globally integrated economy, and we should remember that it was

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Speaker 1: the emerging markets that helped bring us out of the

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Speaker 1: two thousand eight crisis. We will not have a robust

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Speaker 1: global recovery unless all the world is recovered, and that

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Speaker 1: includes the emerging markets. The emerging markets are clearly more vulnerable,

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Speaker 1: both in terms of health, and they don't have the

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Speaker 1: economic resources, as you pointed out, respond anywhere near to

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Speaker 1: the extent that the United States or even Europe have responded. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be a lot of countries that are going

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Speaker 1: to be facing sovereign debt problems that won't be able

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Speaker 1: to repay their debt, and there needs to be a

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Speaker 1: way of restructuring those decks. So far, the private sector

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Speaker 1: has given every indication that they don't understand that there's

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Speaker 1: a pandemic going on, and they have no humanity. You know.

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Speaker 1: They talked about social responsibility, they talk about all these

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Speaker 1: fancy words about now we get it, we understand we

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Speaker 1: have an important uh role to play in our society,

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Speaker 1: and they're acting in just the opposite way. A dollar

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Speaker 1: for them is worth thousands of people die in the

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Speaker 1: emerging markets. So I think this is going to be

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Speaker 1: a critical moment for global capitalism if the global financial

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Speaker 1: markets continue in their hardheaded way of squeezing these emerging markets.

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Speaker 1: Rabini was talking about the battle that's going on the

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Speaker 1: new Cold War. Well, American style of capitalism is going

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Speaker 1: to take a beating if America's financial markets continue to

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Speaker 1: behave in the way that they've been behaving. I guess

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Speaker 1: that was partly a part of some of the things

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Speaker 1: I was asking Neurial, because he seemed to see no

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Speaker 1: potential that capitalism might save itself in the way that

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Speaker 1: perhaps they might have done. We might have said that

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Speaker 1: there was a reset in the thirties in the US

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Speaker 1: and the in the forties in response to some of

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Speaker 1: the threats of populism and the threats to capitalism. One

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Speaker 1: question has come in from Michael check him. Can market

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Speaker 1: economies change reform to be more socially, environmentally, equitable, fairer,

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Speaker 1: all the things that you're talking about, while with companies

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Speaker 1: still being profitable. I guess that's the question. And if if,

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Speaker 1: if capitalism does reform itself and it's still built money,

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Speaker 1: I think the answer is absolutely yes. There are ears

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Speaker 1: responsible capitalism. I wrote a book called Progressive Capitalism. I

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Speaker 1: really believe that we can have a profitable capitalism dextters

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Speaker 1: all of our society. You epic change some of the

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Speaker 1: rules of the game. Uh. And and you can't exploit

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Speaker 1: the environment in the way that they did. You can't

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Speaker 1: exploit the workers in the way that you did. But uh,

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Speaker 1: you can. Actually I think we'll have a stronger, more

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Speaker 1: robust capitalism. The other question is the politics. Uh, can

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Speaker 1: we change the politics in a way that there will

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Speaker 1: be a change in the way the market economy works.

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Speaker 1: Quite frankly, I'm actually hopeful on that. You know, many

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Speaker 1: of the countries in Europe have created a kind of

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Speaker 1: social democracy where they've tried to temper capitalism, and in

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Speaker 1: many of the social indicators they do much better than

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Speaker 1: the United States, less in equality and some of the

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Speaker 1: marriage quite dynamic economies, So we actually have some proof

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Speaker 1: that one can have a more socially just environment very

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Speaker 1: mentally friendly capitalism. You mentioned populism, and I guess it

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Speaker 1: comes down to this much bigger question about whether when

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Speaker 1: we look back, will we say that this was a

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Speaker 1: real turning point for the global economy where long existing

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Speaker 1: trends kind of came to the fore and force change,

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Speaker 1: or whether it will force whether we'll some of those

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Speaker 1: negative trends will actually accelerate. You know, after the global

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Speaker 1: financial crisis, the legacy of that was to shake up

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Speaker 1: global politics and have populism, but populism that often pointed

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Speaker 1: in a not not in a constructive, in a worsening direction.

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Speaker 1: You think there's more chance of a sort of positive

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Speaker 1: form of populism coming out of this, that we will

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Speaker 1: shake everything up and actually end up heading in a

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Speaker 1: better direction. Or is it still to play for I

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Speaker 1: think it's still in play, and I won't call a populism,

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Speaker 1: but I do think the November election in the United States,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be a critical moment. The a rising

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Speaker 1: you might call it that in the United States for

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Speaker 1: racial justice really showed a dimension of the United States

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Speaker 1: solidarity that had not been evidence before. I take that

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Speaker 1: as a sign that ideals really do matter, and that

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Speaker 1: the conception of what a country together means really doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: So I'm very hopeful that in November there will be

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Speaker 1: an outpouring and that will lead the United States to

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Speaker 1: go in a different direction that will have, I think

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Speaker 1: a very big effect on the direction in which the

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Speaker 1: world goes. The One of the issues you were talking

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Speaker 1: about before is the new code war between China and

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Speaker 1: the United States. Uh. And it's clear that those tensions

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Speaker 1: are very strong. But it's also clear that we share

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Speaker 1: the same planet and we are going to have to

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Speaker 1: work together to deal with the problems of pandemics, the

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Speaker 1: problems of of climate change. And so the question is,

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Speaker 1: in the midst of a you know, reordering of the world,

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Speaker 1: are we going to be able to get cooperation across

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Speaker 1: governments that fundamentally may disagree very deeply with each other.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're you can imagine yourself in a lifeboat,

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Speaker 1: the ship is sunk, and there may be some people

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Speaker 1: in that lifebuoat that you really don't like, but that's

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Speaker 1: not the reason why you should think the life quote.

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Speaker 1: And maybe that's a metaphor to say, you know, we're

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Speaker 1: in this together. There there are some others that we

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Speaker 1: may not agree with, but we have some common problems

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Speaker 1: basing the pandemic, climate change, global peace that we have

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Speaker 1: to work together on. Professor Stigler's it's a pleasure, as

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Speaker 1: you say, ideas matter, and it is great to hear

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Speaker 1: someone who I know has a very clear sense of

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Speaker 1: what is wrong in the world give us such an

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Speaker 1: upbeat sense of what could change and the potential that's there.

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Speaker 1: So I appreciate that. Particularly you're looking at a lot

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Speaker 1: of the same facts as Neil Rabini, but actually thinking

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Speaker 1: that we can change course. So thank you again, thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening to seven o weeks. We'll be back next

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Speaker 1: week with more on the ground insight I promise, on

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Speaker 1: how COVID nineteen is turning the global economy upside down.

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Speaker 1: Remember you can always find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, website,

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00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: app or wherever you get your podcast and for more

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Speaker 1: news and analysis from Bloomberg Economics throughout the week, follow

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Speaker 1: at Economics on Twitter. This episode was produced by Magnus Hendrickson,

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00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: with special thanks to Neuria Rabini, Professor Joe Stiglett, Mark Miller,

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Speaker 1: and the entire Bloomberg Live production team. Lucy Meekin is

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Speaker 1: the acting executive producer of Stephanomics, and the head of

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Podcast is Francesca leading h m hm h