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Speaker 1: Body dyings. But Joseph's gotten more. There are many things

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Speaker 1: that have happened to me throughout my life where I

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Speaker 1: didn't think I shot at it. Thankfully, some really cool

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Speaker 1: things came about as a result of those things coming

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Speaker 1: to fruition that never saw it really happening for me.

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Speaker 1: But you know, when you begin to think about the

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Speaker 1: rules or laws of probability, there are certain things within

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Speaker 1: the physical realm that you look at and you just say,

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Speaker 1: I just don't know how that's physically plausible. I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: right now about the Courtney Clinny case that's going on

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Speaker 1: down in Florida, where she alleges that she took a

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Speaker 1: knife through it and stuck it into the chest of

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Speaker 1: her rather ample sized boyfriend and led to his death

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Speaker 1: almost immediately. Chances of that happening her, I guess slim

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Speaker 1: and none. But there's another case out of Florida too

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Speaker 1: that has recently been adjudicated, and it involves a story

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Speaker 1: of a young man and his mother, and his claim

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Speaker 1: is that his mother slipped and fell upon a knife

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Speaker 1: blade that wound up creating a fatal injury in her neck. Plausible, possibly, possible, unlikely.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. I've

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Speaker 1: seen a lot of bizarre things over the course of

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Speaker 1: my career as a medical legal debt investigator, Dave. Some

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Speaker 1: things just defy explanation. Some of the more bizarre things,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm thinking about right now, wrong place, wrong time.

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Speaker 1: I guess we could probably do an entire episode on

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Speaker 1: some of these oddities, because they do exist. You you know,

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Speaker 1: you look at it and you think, wow, you know

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Speaker 1: that could have been me, or you know, you can't

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Speaker 1: tell you how many times I've been surrounded by cops that, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, they would start off a conversation with what

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Speaker 1: are the odds, you know, while we're standing over over

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Speaker 1: a body, you know, just over and over again. Where

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Speaker 1: uh you know, my old friend doctor Parker, who I've

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Speaker 1: quoted before on this program, he used to refer to

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Speaker 1: it as the fickle finger of fate. But you know,

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Speaker 1: most of the time, particularly when it comes to homicides, Dave,

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Speaker 1: fickle finger or fate doesn't necessarily apply. And in this

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Speaker 1: case today, I think that this is one of these

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Speaker 1: instances where I can say I've never actually worked a

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Speaker 1: case where somebody kind of accidentally fell on a blade

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Speaker 1: and it struck them in the neck. It just seems

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Speaker 1: odd to me.

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Speaker 2: It seems like something a third grider would come up with.

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Speaker 2: I was talking to you about this before we started.

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Speaker 2: It's the only person who's going to believe this explanation

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Speaker 2: is another child that she accidentally fell on knife and

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Speaker 2: it must have been sticking up out of the floor.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know how it happened, but it happened.

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Speaker 2: And I'm sorry, you're going to have to believe this

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Speaker 2: because that's all I got. But the reality here is

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Speaker 2: Colin Griffith is a teenage boy who has been accused

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Speaker 2: of killing his mother and by the way, his father,

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Speaker 2: not at the same time, actually separated by a year

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Speaker 2: and a half, and two different modes of murder. One

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Speaker 2: used a knife, the other a gun. Now, Joe, you've

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Speaker 2: pointed out to me that oftentimes a killer or alleged

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Speaker 2: killer has they have a certain thing they like to

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Speaker 2: use when they're killing a knife person or a gun person,

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Speaker 2: or a strangle person, whatever it happens to be. But

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Speaker 2: in this case, we are dealing with a son who,

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Speaker 2: for whatever reason, has both of his parents die in

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Speaker 2: very violent ways, and the only person who has been

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Speaker 2: accused is their son. He was fifteen at one of

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Speaker 2: the murders, one of the deaths, and seventeen at the other.

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Speaker 2: And I don't we don't have to say alleged death

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Speaker 2: because they are both dead, both of his parents, and

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Speaker 2: he was the only person who was or he there

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Speaker 2: is nobody else alleged to have been involved in either

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Speaker 2: of the deaths. Is that correct?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're absolutely correct, Dave. And can I add one

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Speaker 1: more element.

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Speaker 2: To everything you want? Because this is already so jacked up,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna take not.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, now we've got we've got also a

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Speaker 1: geographic oddity here, because these two deaths, if you will, occurred.

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Speaker 1: You know, I guess we could say write it about

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Speaker 1: one thousand miles apart, or maybe in excess to that,

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Speaker 1: I guess wherever you're you know, you're talking about geographically

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Speaker 1: one of the deaths, of course, is in Oklahoma, and

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Speaker 1: then the other one is in Florida, Uh, which you know,

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Speaker 1: it just adds another level of of oddness. I guess

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Speaker 1: you will. And it's not it's not like we're talking

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Speaker 1: about somebody that's hitchhoking with truckers and traveling all about

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Speaker 1: the country, you know, with you know, in hell followed

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Speaker 1: in his wake. It's not like that. It's it's you know,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about a kid who with the initial death

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Speaker 1: was fifteen and now you know, seventeen. It's just it's

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Speaker 1: super super odd. As far as I'm concerned, I don't

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Speaker 1: recall ever having having been involved in a case you

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Speaker 1: know like this. Certainly is an investigator.

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Speaker 2: Let's do this, Joe, because you and I both were

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Speaker 2: struck by the idea that somebody would actually claim that

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Speaker 2: the stabbing of his mother, that his mother, Colin Griff's

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Speaker 2: mom died of a knife to the neck. Is that correct? Yes, okay,

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Speaker 2: And his explanation was that she fell and landed on

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Speaker 2: it that way. That was what he actually said to police.

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Speaker 2: And he stayed with that from beginning to end, did

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Speaker 2: he not?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah he did, and that was what he had

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Speaker 1: alleged had happened.

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Speaker 2: Now. You mentioned Courtney Clinty in the opening.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And.

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Speaker 2: I tell you, friends, if you haven't listened to that show,

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Speaker 2: go do it because I learned so much and that

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Speaker 2: I there were so many things I can't even explain

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Speaker 2: to you because it was so the way you explained

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Speaker 2: that wounding that led to his death is amazing to me.

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Speaker 2: But that one, at least on the surface, made you know,

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Speaker 2: some kind of sense. I mean, to the lay person,

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Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, that could happen, But this one, I'm

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Speaker 2: looking at it going not even in a cartoon, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is not how things happen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Again, it's a matter of what are the odds

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Speaker 1: now Listen, I'm not saying that that everybody's pure as

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Speaker 1: the driven snow here. Okay, let's you know, let's dispel that.

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Speaker 1: You know, from from Jump Street, you've got a fifteen

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Speaker 1: year old kid initially that's obviously in a very troubled

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Speaker 1: set of circumstances. Any kid's going to be troubled. That

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Speaker 1: that is that doesn't necessarily have this kind of nuclear family,

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Speaker 1: you know, where you've got the mom and the dad

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Speaker 1: that are together, and not just that, you've got the

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Speaker 1: separation of of this geographic separation that's so vast. Can

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Speaker 1: you imagine being a fifteen year old kid and thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: my mom is all the way down in Florida, I'm

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Speaker 1: up here in Oklahoma. I'm not ever going to get

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Speaker 1: to see her again. And then you've got all of

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Speaker 1: the logistics of planning a trip to get together with

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Speaker 1: her or you know, get back to your dad or

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Speaker 1: you know. So it's a it's a very it's a

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Speaker 1: sad position for any child. And when this all started, he,

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Speaker 1: you know, Colin was in fact a child in the

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Speaker 1: purest sense, you know, defining defining situation. You know, by law,

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Speaker 1: he's at a great distance. So he's already at this

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Speaker 1: tremendous disadvantage, I think, and you never know, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're cooking up this this kind of relationships, do

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Speaker 1: familial relationships do those ingredients can make for a real

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Speaker 1: violent and maybe kind of twisted a situation in any

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Speaker 1: child's life who's developmentally, you know, the brain is still developing,

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Speaker 1: you know, so a lot at play here and on

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Speaker 1: both sides of this, both sides of this. Can you

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Speaker 1: imagine the can you imagine the difficulty the prosecution had

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Speaker 1: in both of these cases to try to walk that

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Speaker 1: line when you're talking about somebody of such a young

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Speaker 1: age that's been a involved in this really bizarre set

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Speaker 1: of living circumstances.

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Speaker 2: When you and I were growing up, we were considered

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Speaker 2: adults because of the movement that happened in the late

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Speaker 2: sixties early seventies. You and I when we were in

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Speaker 2: our high school years, we were treated as young adults

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Speaker 2: and at eighteen you were considered an adult and you

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Speaker 2: were treated as an adult. Now it's like in the

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Speaker 2: last twenty years we've kind of come off of that

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Speaker 2: and now we're treating young adults like children until they're

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Speaker 2: twenty five because their brain is still developing or what

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Speaker 2: have you. But anyway, let's just deal with Cult County,

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Speaker 2: Florida for just a minute, because one of our favorite

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Speaker 2: sheriffs is Grady Judd. I say our favorites from the

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Speaker 2: standpoint of reporting on crime. Grady Judd is very public.

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Speaker 2: He does not mind holding a press conference, and he

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Speaker 2: does not mind saying what he thinks, which from our angle,

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Speaker 2: it helps because we get a lot more information than

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Speaker 2: normal from him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and again with any and he's Paul too, okay,

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Speaker 1: And you have to you have to measure it with that.

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Speaker 1: You know. For everybody that wants to make a star

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Speaker 1: out of a politician, uh, they have they have motives

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Speaker 1: of their own, you know, when they sit in front

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Speaker 1: of a bank of microphones. Let's dispel this idea that

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Speaker 1: they're pure as are driven snow. There's that turn again. Uh,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, you got to get the votes, and so

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Speaker 1: you take that with a grain of salt. But you're

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Speaker 1: right with with uh with with Grady Judd in particular,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know of any sheriff in

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Speaker 1: America really in today's uh today's context that gets that

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Speaker 1: gets the national attention that he does. He's obviously got

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Speaker 1: an apparatus behind him enables him to do this.

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Speaker 2: Joe R. Pile out of America up the county Arizona

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Speaker 2: used to be you know America. Yeah, I think, yeah,

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Speaker 2: And we had Clark up in uh in Wisconsin and

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Speaker 2: now Grady Judd in Florida. But I went ahead and

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Speaker 2: I pulled an article. This is from the first articles

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Speaker 2: reporting the arrest in Florida. Here's what it says. According

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Speaker 2: to the Polk County Sheriff's Office, a seventeen year old

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Speaker 2: was arrested for killing his mother on Sunday evening. Sheriff

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Speaker 2: Grady Judd says Colin Griffith of Port Charlotte was charged

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Speaker 2: with first degree murder, kidnapping, and violation of a no

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Speaker 2: contact order. Witnesses told detectives that they saw Colin Griffith

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Speaker 2: and his mother outside the mobile home arguing, and that

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Speaker 2: they saw him Colin Griffith grab his mother by the

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Speaker 2: hair and drag her inside the house. Investigators said witnesses

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Speaker 2: told them that Catherine Griffith repeatedly pleaded with her son

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Speaker 2: to quote, let me go. According to the Sheriff's office,

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Speaker 2: when deputies asked Colin Griffith what happened at the scene,

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Speaker 2: he became immediately uncooperative and asked to speak to a lawyer.

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Speaker 2: Detectives said, as the investigation continues, they noticed inconsistencies between

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Speaker 2: what the teen said in his nine one one call

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Speaker 2: and what was discovered at the scene. That's from the

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Speaker 2: first articles reporting the arrest of seventeen year old Colin

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Speaker 2: Griffith and the death of his mother.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you you rely heavily upon what eyewitnesses

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Speaker 1: tell you. Sometimes there are none, obviously, but when you

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Speaker 1: do have them, they're invaluable to an investigation. And so

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Speaker 1: to take this article, these comments in this article on

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Speaker 1: its face, you've got something that is that is obviously

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Speaker 1: violent that kind of kicks this whole thing off. The

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Speaker 1: status of the of the witnesses to this. Was it

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Speaker 1: loud enough so that they could have heard it from

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Speaker 1: within their own home surrounding this particular location, or were

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Speaker 1: they out in the yard watering the grass and they

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Speaker 1: look up and here's this young man who has his

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Speaker 1: mother by the hair of the and he's dragging her

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Speaker 1: back towards the house, which, by the way, she winds

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Speaker 1: up being drug back into the house and is never

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Speaker 1: seen in the world of living again, because it was

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Speaker 1: following this that a nine to one one call is

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Speaker 1: made and when police roll up, the scene is bathed

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Speaker 1: in her blood. The thing about law enforcement and investigators

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Speaker 1: is that you can see something and take it on

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Speaker 1: its face, right. You see it at the scene and

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Speaker 1: you say, okay, well, I've got this woman who has

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Speaker 1: obviously sustained a horrible injury to her neck throat depend

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Speaker 1: upon you know what you choose as your descriptor here

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Speaker 1: super saturated blood and you find a weapon there. But

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Speaker 1: that doesn't tell the whole story. I can. I would

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Speaker 1: love to have been a fly on the wall when

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Speaker 1: when the investigators found out that this young man who

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Speaker 1: apparently has linkage to the death of his mother one

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Speaker 1: way or another, you know, because he's saying that, you know,

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Speaker 1: she fell on the knife as a result of an

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Speaker 1: argument that they were having, and of course the police

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Speaker 1: are thinking that, you know, he takes this knife and

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Speaker 1: inserts it into her neck. I would have loved to

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Speaker 1: have been a fly on the wall, you know when

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Speaker 1: they discovered that, Oh yeah, about a year ago, this

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Speaker 1: kid who is now standing over the body of his

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Speaker 1: dead mother. Yeah, he shot his father in another state

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Speaker 1: when he was fifteen. Yeah, you know, can you imagine

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Speaker 1: being that detective when you first get that information, and

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Speaker 1: it's weird, Dave. You know, sometimes you'll go out on

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Speaker 1: these cases like this and you look at the forensic

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Speaker 1: evidence and what you're kind of surrounded by, and you

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Speaker 1: have no explanation sometimes for it. Sometimes you do. In

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Speaker 1: this case, you know, you're looking at a stab one,

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Speaker 1: but you don't really go any further than that at

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Speaker 1: that moment in tom And then suddenly, maybe while you're

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Speaker 1: at the scene, this extra data comes rolling in and

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Speaker 1: the complexion of everything at the scene suddenly changes. I mean,

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Speaker 1: just consider it just for a second, if you will.

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Speaker 1: You're thinking, Oh, this kid's seventeen years old and he's

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Speaker 1: already been present during the midst of another homicide, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and he was charged with it. It's super super odd.

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Speaker 2: You have to admit, well, okay, when they're covering the crime,

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Speaker 2: and we started with the mother because that was the

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Speaker 2: most recent, and you mentioned they find out who they're

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Speaker 2: actually dealing with, I mean, what do we know? Because

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Speaker 2: he lawyers up right away from very first conversations. I

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Speaker 2: want a lawyer, and for a seventeen year old to

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Speaker 2: say that they watch a lot of crime stuff on TV,

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Speaker 2: there are a number of different things that come to

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Speaker 2: my mind, But all I'm thinking is, this is somebody

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Speaker 2: who has been around the legal system from a criminal

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Speaker 2: perspective to know that they've already said too much because

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Speaker 2: he made the nine to one one call and when

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Speaker 2: the authorities arrive on the scene, they're using the information

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Speaker 2: given to them by nine to one one to set

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Speaker 2: the stage, to set the scene. And when they walk

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Speaker 2: in there and they're like, this does not match up

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Speaker 2: with what he was saying on the phone to nine

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Speaker 2: one one. Now, according to Pike County Sheriff's Office, that

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Speaker 2: he on his nine one one call said that he

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Speaker 2: and his mother got into an argument. What is it?

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Speaker 2: Paul County. You said, Pike, Oh, Pike, Okay, Paul County. Sorry,

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Speaker 2: But the Polk County Sheriff's office is saying, hey man,

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Speaker 2: he said he and his mother were having a fight

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Speaker 2: and that she lunged at him with a knife and

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Speaker 2: fell and the knife went into her neck. So I'm

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Speaker 2: thinking of all the ways of what we already know

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Speaker 2: from witnesses of him dragging her by the head of

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Speaker 2: the hair back into the trailer and her saying let

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Speaker 2: me go, which means she cannot get free herself. At

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Speaker 2: what point did she get free to grab a knife

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Speaker 2: and attack him in the way that he describes. They

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Speaker 2: also talk about life saving measures that he was given

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Speaker 2: instructions over the phone that when they got there they

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Speaker 2: realized he probably didn't do that. You know, they're basing

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Speaker 2: what they see and what they've been told, and they're

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Speaker 2: not matching up. So he shuts it all down right

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Speaker 2: away with his mother, and that's it. Now. Detectives can

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Speaker 2: only go on the physical evidence that they see, the

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Speaker 2: story that he's told via nine to one one, and

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Speaker 2: that's it. There is nothing else, which defense attorneys loved

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Speaker 2: that they would have much rather him not even made

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Speaker 2: the nine one one call, because that's the story he's

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Speaker 2: got to defend, you know, that's why police want to

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Speaker 2: get that initial statement. So as they're investigating and they

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Speaker 2: find out, wait a minute, this now seventeen year old

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Speaker 2: boy who is now charged with the first degree murder

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Speaker 2: of his mother a year and a half ago in February,

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Speaker 2: on Valentine's Day of twenty twenty three, he is accused

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Speaker 2: of killing his father in Oklahoma, but that one was

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Speaker 2: with a gun. He shot him, and he claims self defense,

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Speaker 2: which I'm guessing if your mother just died while lunging

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Speaker 2: at you with a knife and she fell on it

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Speaker 2: and hit her in the throat, that that also he

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Speaker 2: was doing nothing. It was self defense. He was backing away,

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Speaker 2: she tripped and fell on the knife.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Retreat, retreat, retreat.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm thinking the same thing, you know, they're

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Speaker 1: you know, if you're looking for commonality here in the

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Speaker 1: dynamics of both of these crime scenes, that's what that's

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Speaker 1: what's being stated with the murder of his father, which

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Speaker 1: he you know, he he says that he actually did

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Speaker 1: in fact shoot his father, And I think that that's

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Speaker 1: very important for us to understand that he had retreated

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Speaker 1: to a position where he felt like he was cornered.

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Speaker 1: But David wasn't. In that particular case, it wasn't sufficient

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Speaker 1: for him to have merely have you know, shot shot

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Speaker 1: his father. You know, once he pops his father in

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Speaker 1: the chest. Okay, shoots his father in the chest. Now

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Speaker 1: his father's Charles Griffith had shot him in the chest

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Speaker 1: on you know, Valentine's Day, February fourteen, twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: and then he gets popped in the head one more

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Speaker 1: time almost you know, it's the coup.

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Speaker 2: De gras, if you will, I thought no, I just

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Speaker 2: thought wrong. So you can actually determine what shots came

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Speaker 2: first and last when they're that close behind one another.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, if you're if you're talking about you know, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'll put I'll put it to you. In the most

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Speaker 1: likely scenario, if you shoot somebody in the chest, there's

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Speaker 1: a higher probability that they'll survive to the point where

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Speaker 1: you're going to be able to shoot them in the head.

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Speaker 1: And so if the headshot follows the chest shot, and

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Speaker 1: it's in quick succession, that you're going to have hemorrhage

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Speaker 1: in both of the wound tracks. However, if you score

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Speaker 1: a head shot with the first discharge of the weapons,

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Speaker 1: there's less of a likelihood that there would be depend

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Speaker 1: upon antomically, the position of that head shot, there'd be

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Speaker 1: less of a likelihood that you would see trauma or

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Speaker 1: hemorrhage in the woundtrack of the chest, okay, because you know,

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Speaker 1: most of the time headshots are going to be fatal,

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Speaker 1: and again a lot of that has to do with with,

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Speaker 1: you know, positioning of the round. But he's only fifteen,

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Speaker 1: and I'm wondering because you know, it's generally, you know,

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Speaker 1: two to the chests, one of the head you know,

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Speaker 1: you've heard that in movies over the years, and that's

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Speaker 1: kind of the you know, the finishing kind of touch,

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Speaker 1: and that's something that is trained in the military and

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Speaker 1: in other organization. So you go, why do you go

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Speaker 1: to the chest first? Well, you go to the chest

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Speaker 1: first because it's a bigger target. Okay. So you're looking

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Speaker 1: at the ideas to fire center mass, which means right

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Speaker 1: in the heart of things, okay, literally and figuratively. So

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Speaker 1: if you score a chess shot, there's a chance that

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Speaker 1: first off, if someone is coming after you and they

356
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Speaker 1: have you cornered, they're going to go down, and then

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Speaker 1: you stand over them potentially and finish them off with

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Speaker 1: a head shot. Now, I mean, there are people out

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Speaker 1: there that are really good with a weapon, and they

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Speaker 1: can do it in quick succession, you know. But I've

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Speaker 1: worked cases over the years where people have taken multiple

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Speaker 1: gunshot wounds to the torso and then somebody will have

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Speaker 1: a finishing shot where they'll come to the head. Because

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Speaker 1: most people understand that head shots are in fact fatal,

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Speaker 1: and that's how that would be determined. So if you're

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Speaker 1: dealing with the first a head shot you have, you

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00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 1: know that's tracking with hemorrhage through it. There's a high

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Speaker 1: likelihood that you won't have any hemorrhage in a chest

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Speaker 1: in a chest one. However, reversing that, thinking well, he

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Speaker 1: shot in the chest first, he's probably still got some

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Speaker 1: kind of agniral respiration, heart might still be beating, and

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Speaker 1: there's blood coursing through through the brain and you shoot

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Speaker 1: him again, then you know you can potentially have a

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Speaker 1: hemorrhage in that wound. Track either way, you know, the

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Speaker 1: police I think, Dave and correct me if I'm wrong,

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Speaker 1: But is it true in saying that you know he

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Speaker 1: shot he shot his father and they charged him in Oklahoma,

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Speaker 1: and it was within what a month that they dropped

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Speaker 1: those charges.

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Speaker 2: Correct, right, they did. And I looked at this because he,

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Speaker 2: let's charged, you know, with first degree murder in that case,

382
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Speaker 2: and at fifteen years old, shot his father and the

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Speaker 2: judge ended up having all the charges dropped. I say

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Speaker 2: the judge, because he come. I guess that's what happens.

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Speaker 2: Prosecutors can drop charges too. I guess. I'm not a

386
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Speaker 2: lawyer or anything like that. We just play it on

387
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Speaker 2: the radio, but you're career. So the judge actually kicked

388
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Speaker 2: that one to the curve, but he did not do

389
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Speaker 2: it in a way where they can't bring the charges

390
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 2: again later. You know, they didn't do it with what

391
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 2: do you call it, with prejudice? You dismissed? Dropped with

392
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Speaker 2: prejudice means it cannot be brought again. Dropped it. But

393
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Speaker 2: if they just drop it just saying hey, we don't

394
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 2: have enough here. And I think, you know, just in

395
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: my mind's eye, I'm thinking, when you start charging a

396
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Speaker 2: fifteen year old with murder of his father and he

397
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: claimed self defense, you really have to look at a

398
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 2: lot of different things. You've got to consider the relationship

399
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: and what you may or may not know about it.

400
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 2: Because he did have at the time a mother in

401
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 2: Florida that was an option for him to go live with,

402
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: and he was with his dad in Oklahoma. So the

403
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 2: judge looks at the case and he drops it. Now

404
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 2: a year and a half later, we're in Florida, where

405
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 2: he now takes out his mother. I don't know if

406
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 2: we ever have any kind of situation like this, Joe,

407
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 2: having ever happened. I know we've had children accused of

408
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 2: killing parents, but it's usually at the same time or

409
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 2: at the same general time where they take out one

410
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 2: parent and then the other. But we're talking about eighteen months,

411
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Speaker 2: a year and a half in different states. As you

412
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Speaker 2: mentioned at the very beginning, this is really different in

413
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 2: terms of how do you defend this, You're I mean,

414
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 2: if I killed two people separated by eighteen months, and

415
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 2: I say it's self defense, I mean, what kind of

416
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 2: life am I living?

417
00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: You know?

418
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 2: What am I doing to put myself in this situation

419
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 2: where the people that I'm around want to take me

420
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,479
Speaker 2: out and my only recourse to defend myself is to

421
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 2: kill them? I mean, what am I doing wrong? In life.

422
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 2: That's what I'm thinking.

423
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I got it. I'm going to be

424
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: very curious to see what the authorities in Oklahoma do

425
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: with this if they go back to pick this case

426
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: up again, and because you know what, what could have

427
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: changed between you know, low these many months that have elapsed.

428
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: You know what is it? It's less than two years,

429
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: eighteen months if.

430
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 2: You're working in twenty twenty three to September twenty twenty four.

431
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and how much how much information could be integrated

432
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 1: into a trial? Now remember he hasn't had a trial

433
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma. What what information from from the trial down

434
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: in Florida? And is it possible to integrate that in

435
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 1: because you know he's going to be charged if he's

436
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: fifteen years old. My understanding is is that you know,

437
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: they could, in fact, you know, charge him and treat

438
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: him as an adult up there because of the nature

439
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: of this crime. I don't know that it would go

440
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: into a juvenile status. But I know that one of

441
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: the things that may or may not be mentioned is

442
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 1: what the medical examiner said down in Florida relative to

443
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: Colin's mother's murder. What the medical examiner said was that,

444
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: in their opinion, there's no way that she slipped and

445
00:28:47,200 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: fell on a knife, bringing an end to her own life.

446
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:13,959
Speaker 1: You know, you hear people make comments in literature and

447
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: movies and things like that all the time about saying,

448
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: you know, young man, the world is your oyster and

449
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: go forth. You know your future looks bright. What in

450
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: the world do you say to someone like Colin Griffith

451
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: the worst of it is behind me now and now

452
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: I get to move on to a brighter future. I

453
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: don't know, I really don't know. I'm genuinely asking how

454
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: do you move on from something like this where now

455
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: you're absent both both of your parents. I understand, you know,

456
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: Colin's got a grandmother, but you know, how do you

457
00:29:54,600 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: move forward in these circumstances and live your life? It

458
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: begs that question. And here's another thing, Dave, I got

459
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: to throw at you. Who who would feel safe, you know,

460
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: entering into you know, entering into any kind of circumstance

461
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: with him.

462
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: Taking these one at the time. Yeah, they already got

463
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 2: him to trial. Now he's aged, he's alleged to have

464
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 2: killed his mother September eighth, twenty twenty four, and they

465
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 2: got it to trial already. We're talking. I mean that

466
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 2: speedy justice man. I'm thinking about how often crimes will

467
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: you know, a crime will occur and then we have

468
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: a trial a couple of years later. This one is months,

469
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: not even a full year, And I think because of that,

470
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: it gives us a little bit better idea of what

471
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 2: we're really looking like. Because there's not a lot of

472
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 2: distance here. We can actually count the number of months here.

473
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 2: And September eighth, Colin Grevith is accused of killing his mother,

474
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 2: and his defense is that she was charging me with

475
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 2: a knife and she fell on the knife a hit

476
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: her in the throat. He then lawyered up right away

477
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 2: before talking to police, and boom, there you go. They

478
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,239
Speaker 2: got it to court. And this is the part that

479
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 2: begins this whole thing. Most of us are amazed that

480
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 2: a young man could be accused of killing both of

481
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: his parents, separated by eighteen months in different states. But

482
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 2: here we've already got a case that's gone to trial

483
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 2: and at the jury, I don't know how much they

484
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 2: got to hear about the Oklahoma case.

485
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: Investigator that worked case up in Oklahoma actually came down

486
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: to Florida and test foed in this homicide trial down

487
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: in Florida. So yeah, I mean even with that knowledge,

488
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: you know that's been you know, kind of integrated into

489
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: into this and my my from a forensics perspective, I'd

490
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: like to know how much how much forensics actually played

491
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: into this case. I think I mentioned it to you.

492
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 2: I saw, I.

493
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: Saw the knife that was utilized and this is this

494
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: knife is a for those that have not seen it,

495
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: I encourage you guys to go take a look at

496
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: it online. This knife is a smooth surfaced stainless steel knife.

497
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: It's got the integrated stainless steel blade with and you

498
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: guys are going to know what I'm talking about. It's

499
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: also got stainless steel handle on it too, So it's

500
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: a smooth, non porous surface that would easily easily bear

501
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: bear any kind of prints that might be available on

502
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: this thing. How was the knife processed? I think is

503
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: going to be one of the one of the big

504
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: questions here. And it's a single injury and there is

505
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: quite a bit of blood on the surface of both

506
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: the blade and the handle itself. One of the problems

507
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: that you encounter because I know that this is a

508
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: big question many times with with with instruments that are

509
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: utilized in a homicide, you want to be able to

510
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: have you want to be able to put it into

511
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: the hand of the perpetrator if you have the weapon

512
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: right and so with blood though, if you're talking about

513
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: a transfer of a fingerprint, which we know is generated

514
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: by the fatty lipids and our fingertips, can it be

515
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: obscured by the blood? Okay? Well if she's bleeding out.

516
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: Also one of the things that you're thinking about, Well,

517
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: if he left the knife in her long enough, which

518
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 1: obviously it was in her at some point in time

519
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: and came out because her blood is on the surface

520
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: of the knife, did he leave behind a bloody print

521
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 1: in his mother's own blood, assuming he didn't have any

522
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: injuries that transferred onto the surface of the blade that

523
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: they could have processed and put that there. Of course,

524
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: the defense can easily say, well, you don't understand. You know,

525
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: he picked up the blade. He picked it up because

526
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 1: he either wanted it away from his mother, he wanted

527
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: it out of you know, out of arm's reach of her,

528
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: or he was trying to render aid, which, of course,

529
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: you know they're saying that he didn't make it. He

530
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: apparently made a little or no attempt to try to

531
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: save his own mother's life. But again that bit of

532
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: physical evidence there, you know, is critical.

533
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,439
Speaker 2: Dave. You know, I'm glad you pointed all that out,

534
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 2: because those are the things that a lot of us

535
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: don't know, Joe, I mean, we don't. It's amazing to

536
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 2: me how many times I'll see something happen during a

537
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: trial that I think are really important and end up

538
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 2: being nothing. It happens all the time. In this case,

539
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 2: we know that, and that Colin Griffith was acquitted. The

540
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 2: jury said he didn't do it on purpose, or he

541
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 2: was not guilty of murder. And so here we are,

542
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 2: in less than two years time killed his dad in

543
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: Valentine's Day twenty twenty three, and before Valentine's Day twenty

544
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 2: twenty four, he's acquitted of the murder of his mother.

545
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 2: Two dead parents in a twenty four month period of time.

546
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 2: One charge is dropped, the other is he's acquitted. And

547
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 2: I guess we're thinking about this as reasonable human beings

548
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 2: and whether or not you can believe that. And based

549
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 2: on they streamed the closing arguments on Court TV, I

550
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 2: think for this case and in and that it was

551
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 2: one of those things where the prosecution or the defense,

552
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 2: that the prosecution has no proof of what happened inside

553
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 2: the home the day Catherine was killed. They were able

554
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 2: to paint this picture Joe, that she was unbalanced, that

555
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: she had pointed a gun at Colin's face before. And

556
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, okay, let's just say, for the sake of argument,

557
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: that that had happened in the past. Let's just say,

558
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 2: for the sake of argument, that he begged for foster care.

559
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 2: Please send me to foster care to get me away

560
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 2: from this crazy woman. Well, when it comes right down

561
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 2: to it, he said she was lunging at him with

562
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 2: a knife and it landed in her neck when she fell,

563
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,919
Speaker 2: And the medical examiner says that couldn't have happened. Now,

564
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 2: when you testify, Joe, that this couldn't have happened the

565
00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 2: way he's describing it to me, he's lying. And if

566
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 2: he's lying about what happened, I can't believe anything else

567
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 2: he's claiming, including self defense. Obviously I'm wrong, But isn't

568
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 2: that Doesn't that make sense to you?

569
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, on one level, it does. I'm fascinated by

570
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 1: something else that came up at trial to day. Did

571
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: you did you know, did you know that the defense

572
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: how many times? Let me ask you something, how many

573
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: times have you heard the term suicide by cop?

574
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 2: Yeah? I have, yeah, bunch, bunch, and I know what

575
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 2: they did at trial.

576
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're they're they're alleging that this is suicide

577
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 1: by son. That's what defense is actually saying, because.

578
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 2: You know he was affluenza boy. You know remember that one.

579
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's similar. I mean it's like you come

580
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: up with a crazy defense. How do you do y'all

581
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 2: just sit around and drink and can come up, Hey,

582
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 2: this will work. Suicide?

583
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, And it's it's a you know, highly implausible.

584
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: But again, you know, with the prosecute, I mean, forgive me.

585
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: But with defense, you know, it's a matter of reasonable doubt.

586
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:20,959
Speaker 1: All it takes is one. The difference though, is that,

587
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:26,399
Speaker 1: you know, with suicide by cop is that you have

588
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: to have a firearm involved, right, and it's an allegedly

589
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: as sure thing. You know that if you act provocatively

590
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 1: toward a police officer, you know, presenting a weapon that

591
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: they're going to draw, they're going to tell you to

592
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: stand down. You refuse, you continue to advance or do

593
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 1: whatever you're doing. It's being aggressive in order to, you know,

594
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:51,240
Speaker 1: get them to initiate fire upon you and in your life.

595
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:57,319
Speaker 1: Griffith alleges that there had been a long fight that

596
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 1: had preceded, you know, this atal injury that she had sustained,

597
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: that the mother had sustained to the neck, you know,

598
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: and you're seeing this that this is kind of an

599
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 1: exhaustive event, you know, where they're both tired. They'd been fighting.

600
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: We do have an eyewitness that saw him dragging her,

601
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: according to the witness, back into the house by the

602
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 1: head of three two, by the hair of the head,

603
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: and then a fight ensues after that. This knife looks

604
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: like something you would have gotten out of a knife

605
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: block and a kitchen, you know, that comes in a

606
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: set that's just sitting up there on the counter. Somehow

607
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: that knife was accessed during this. Now who put their

608
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: hands on that knife first, I really don't know. But

609
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:55,399
Speaker 1: after this very long fight, suddenly she formulates in her

610
00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: mind that she's wanting, of all things, to commit suicide

611
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 1: at the hand of her own son, and that she

612
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 1: engineers this with a knife as opposed to a weapon,

613
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:14,959
Speaker 1: and a knife is very nonspecific. Okay, there's no guarantee.

614
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: There's no guarantee with any weapon out there, but with

615
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: a knife you have to hit just in the right spot.

616
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: So what's it going to be defense? Is it that

617
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 1: it was a long fight, that they're exhausted, and that

618
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 1: suddenly she formulates this idea of suicidal ideation and decides

619
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: to use her son as a means to that end.

620
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: Or is it something else, the fact that maybe, just

621
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: maybe he decided to end the life of his mother

622
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: because he didn't want to be there. We don't know.

623
00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: We know that he has been found not guilty. There's

624
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: one other thing that we know. Colin Griffith is now

625
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 1: without either parent, one dead in Oklahoma, admittedly at his

626
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: hand by gunfire, and his mother who wound up with

627
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:25,280
Speaker 1: a large, sharp force injury to the neck. I'm Joseph

628
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks