1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome back to Work in Progress. 2 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: Today's guest is a world class designer and one of 3 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: the most creative people in business. That's actually a direct 4 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: quote from Fast Company. And she happens to be a 5 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: person who I have the most enormous brain crush on, 6 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,279 Speaker 1: So I am elated that she's here today. We are 7 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: welcoming the inimitable Debbie Millman to Work in Progress. Debbie 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: is a graphic designer and an educator. She's presented keynote 9 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: lectures from Princeton University, to the Hong Kong Design Association 10 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: to Barcelona's Festival of Art and Design. She's also a 11 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: powerful voice in the podcasting community. Her show Design Matters 12 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: dates back to almost the birth of the medium and 13 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: has maintained a strong following for almost sixteen years. Apple 14 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: Podcasts has even designated Design Matters as one of the 15 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: best overall podcasts ever. As an activist, Debbie has contributed 16 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: to a variety of organizations dedicated to the eradication of 17 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: sexual assault and domestic violence, and she's even taken a 18 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: more hands on role as part of Mauritka harget Is 19 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: Joyful Heart Foundation. Most recently Debbie has authored a brand 20 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: new book called Why Design Matters. The book features transcripts 21 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: of some of Debbie's best interviews from Design Matters, quotes 22 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: from her expert guests, beautiful photography, and of course, Stunning Design. 23 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: Will get more details about the book, as well as 24 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: Debbie's career and her passion for causes in this episode. 25 00:01:45,800 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy h well. I I'm just I'm 26 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: so thrilled to have you on the show today, Debbie. 27 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining me. Oh my absolute pleasure, Sophie. 28 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: It is so exciting to meet you and to be 29 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: here with you. I'm such an enormous fan of yours, 30 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: of your writing and your speaking and your work and 31 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: your podcast and the way that you help so many 32 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: people really consider an understand design. Thank you, Thank you 33 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: very much, and I'm I'm so excited to talk to 34 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 1: you about it because I I think about how design 35 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: affects everything from how spaces feel to how our cities 36 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,279 Speaker 1: work and sometimes don't. I think about the design required 37 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: to tackle things like the current issue of America's crumbling 38 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 1: infrastructure and how it needs to be rebuilt and bolstered. 39 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:59,519 Speaker 1: I mean, it's design is energetic and political and motivating 40 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: and filled with art and capable in and of itself. 41 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: And I'm just oh, I'm so excited to ask you 42 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: all about how you got into it and and became 43 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: this expert. But before I um, I completely start to 44 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: blush about my thrill in this moment, I need to 45 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: actually go backwards before we we tackle the present. I 46 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: love to see how the people who joined me on 47 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: the show got to where they are today. So if 48 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: if you'll take a ride with me, I'd I'd love 49 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: to go back to the beginning. I'd love to know 50 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: you know where home was for you as a kid. 51 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: What what was your life like pre pre double digits, 52 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: you know, when when you were little. Well, I'm a 53 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: native New Yorker, one of the few. I was born 54 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: in Brooklyn, moved to Howard Beach, Queens when I was 55 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: too lived there till the middle of third grade, um, 56 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: and then moved to Staten Island. So I've lived in 57 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: all the boroughs except the bronx Um lived on Staten 58 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: Island for about two and a half years that my 59 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: parents got divorced. My mom got married within a year remarried, 60 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: and she and her new husband and his two kids 61 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: and me and my brother all moved to Long Island, 62 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: and I lived on Long Island until I graduated high 63 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: school and then went to Sunni albany Um in the 64 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: capital of New York for college. But growing up it 65 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: was it was really I called my childhood and adolescents 66 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: the Black Years because they were so challenging. My parents 67 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: divorce was was really ugly. My mom's second marriage was 68 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: really abusive and violent and terrifying in many, many, many ways. 69 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: I know we share a mutual friend, Mrs Harcit, and 70 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: so I often talked about how my early life was 71 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: like an episode of s vu Um and which is 72 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: why I now work with mauritika Um at the Joyful 73 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: Heart Foundation. But I went off to college, started to 74 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: make a life of my own, discovered design, and have 75 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: had over the years a really interesting and evolving career, 76 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: sort of trying to make my early childhood dreams come 77 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: home as as you know, an adult, were you thinking 78 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: about design as a kid. It's so interesting to me that, 79 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 1: you know, you talk about that period of difficulty and 80 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: I imagine trauma and you assign a color to it, which, yes, 81 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: is suching. Yeah, I really thought of it that way. 82 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: But yes, absolutely, when I think of someone quite literally 83 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 1: designing something, you know, Um, I guess what comes to 84 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: mind for me, perhaps because of what I do, is 85 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 1: you know, a movie poster or a billboard and to 86 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: say that this, this story, this moment in this person's 87 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: life is black. That strikes me as beautiful and poignant 88 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 1: and um. And I wonder when you look back on it, 89 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: do you see that budding passion for design then? Was it? 90 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: Was it present? Was it perhaps you know, a way 91 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: to escape and imagine? Oh for sure, I don't know 92 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: that I would have put a label on it. I 93 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: know looking back. I love to make things, and I 94 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: was always making things. I was making perfume out of 95 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: rose petals and baby oil and Malcolm powder, which just 96 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: resulted in a sort of pink glooy mess. I made 97 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: a magazine with one of my childhood friends who's also 98 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: was named Debbie, and we came up with a great 99 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: name for magazine. I still think it's a great name, Debutante. 100 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: You know, both Debbie's. I was always making plays with 101 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:02,559 Speaker 1: the assigning parts to my brethren, my stepsisters, and doing 102 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: whatever I could to really make my imagination come to life. 103 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: And now I can say that I'm truly happiest when 104 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: I'm making something, especially when I'm making something from nothing, 105 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: you know, when there's no preconceived rules, when you don't 106 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: have to follow any directions and you can just sort 107 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: of improvise and make it up as you go along. 108 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,679 Speaker 1: And it could be a podcast, it could be a 109 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: class uh syllables, it could be a presentation, it could 110 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: be a piece of art. You know. For me, it's 111 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: just the act of making that makes me happiest. I 112 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: love that. And you refer to you know, your brother 113 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: and your stepsisters. For all of you as kids, I 114 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: imagine your circumstances were tough for everyone. Were you able 115 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: to create kind of a team and and be each 116 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: other's support system in that environment? Yes, and no, to 117 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: a degree. My brother and I were very close at 118 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: that point. Our stepfather, my stepfather, their biological father, sort 119 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: of played us against each other in in a lot 120 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: of ways. And they were married for only four years. 121 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: So that's probably a blessing, you know, in disguise in 122 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: some ways. Um So, from the time I was They 123 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: met when I was in fifth grade and got divorced 124 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: when I was I think in ninth, and then for 125 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: lots and lots and lots and lots of reasons, never 126 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: saw them again, never heard from them again. And then 127 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: in um one of my stepsisters wrote me on Facebook 128 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: with an incredible Yeah. I mean I can't really say 129 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: it's incredible because of the content, but it was incredible 130 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: because of the way I perceived the content, which was 131 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: she wrote me, and all all she wrote was is 132 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: it you? And I wrote back yes, and then she 133 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: wrote back and then we started talking. And I have 134 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 1: talked on the telephone a few times. And it's sort 135 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: of interesting when you think about your life. A lot 136 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: of times, I think people question their memories, they questioned 137 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: their experiences. Was that exactly how it happened. Sometimes I'll 138 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: watch something that I haven't seen in forty years, and 139 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: I'll think, oh, I remembered that differently, or even that 140 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: great great Harold pinter play Betrayal, where they're each remembering 141 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: the two characters are each remembering the exact same situation 142 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: in a very different way. One thought it was in 143 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: their their kitchen, the other thought it was in their kitchen, 144 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: and they're fighting about whose kitchen it was in. And 145 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: it was remarkable to talk to this person, this this 146 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: step sister that I had forty five years ago and 147 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: have so many of the same memories. You know, it's 148 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: such an incredible thing to be witnessed in the same 149 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: way you remember living and sharing that I think was 150 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 1: really healing for both of us. I can imagine, especially 151 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: as you said, you know, such a sort of seminal 152 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: time in the development of young women, you know, fifth 153 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: to ninth grade. That's yeah, that's I just think about 154 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: how impressionable you are and how much imprinting happens, and 155 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: and it it's no surprise to me that you guys 156 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: have that kind of tether. Yeah, yeah, that's it's a 157 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: good word for it. Tether is a good word. And 158 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: how special that you found making and creating, you know, 159 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: glovy messes. Is it sometimes resulting that that you found 160 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: this outlet to investigate and explore? Um, I imagine that 161 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: that was just so incredibly motivating and gave you your 162 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: own world? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely. I even made a piece 163 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,079 Speaker 1: of art from my SIPs. Sister's first question to me, 164 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: is it you? Um? I was commissioned to do something 165 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,599 Speaker 1: for American Poets Magazine, And when I was commissioned to 166 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: do a piece of art for their cover and decided 167 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,719 Speaker 1: to use that phrase is it you? And you know 168 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: it could mean so many things, um, and I was 169 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: just so my heart sort of burst a little bit 170 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: when when I saw it printed. M hmm, yeah. That 171 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: that's the kind of thing that really cuts to the 172 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: core of something I You know, there's that famous saddest 173 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: story ever written in six words, Oh Ernest Hemingway, never warned, ever, 174 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: never warned you, and that that it's such a it's 175 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: like a lightning rod. And is it you? I think, well, 176 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: at least for me, it feels like a lightning rod 177 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 1: kind of sentence. To read to me three words it 178 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: makes my chest flutter a bit to be in this 179 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: position now as a maker and an artist, and a 180 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: teacher and a leader. Do you look back at that time, 181 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: especially you know you spoke about entering into the ninth grade. 182 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: I think about, um, those four years of high school 183 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: and what they mean to so many of us who 184 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 1: are trying to find ourselves. Do you do you see 185 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: now looking back at that time your decision to pursue design, 186 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: or or perhaps even the you know, the teachers or 187 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: professors who were inspiring you to find the beginning of 188 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: that path, not really until much later. UM. I graduated 189 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: high school really quite unsure about what I wanted to do. 190 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: My sole decision for choosing the college that I did 191 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: was because my best friend was going and we decided 192 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: we were going to try to be roommates and um 193 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: and that was a nice safety net for me, and 194 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: I had a very limited range of schools that I 195 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: could choose from because as they had to be state 196 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: schools because of what I could afford. But it turned 197 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: out to be one of the best decisions I've ever made, 198 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: because I really did begin to find some of my 199 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: I guess, my creative ambition and some professional hopes and dreams. 200 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,479 Speaker 1: That all began when I started working at the college newspaper, 201 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: and I became the arts and features editor in my 202 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: senior year of college, and as a requirement of the editor, 203 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: you also had to what was then called put the 204 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: paper together, which was designing it. And so I learned 205 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: very quickly how to do basically out and paste up, 206 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: but fell madly in love with doing it, so much 207 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: so that I think it's somehow sometimes UM, I spent 208 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,839 Speaker 1: more time designing than I did editing. And then when 209 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: I graduated. It really became an opportunity for me to 210 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: use the only marketable skills I had, which were basic 211 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: layout and paste up, And then immediately moved to Manhattan, 212 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: lived in a four story tenement walk up and started 213 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: pounding the pavement, because that's what you did back then 214 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: in the in the early eighties, you know, you looked 215 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: in the New York Times and went and tried to 216 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: find jobs, sort of going almost door to door, and 217 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: and found my first job through a wanted in the 218 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: New York Times. And where did you land What was 219 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: that first job I landed? I landed at a cable magazine. 220 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: So back in the eighties, the early eighties, cable was 221 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: all the rage. Suddenly you had more than just the 222 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: thirteen channels, and there was a whole magazine about the 223 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: same same way there was TV Guide, there was Cable View, 224 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: and and that's where I worked, and I was a 225 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: traffic girl between the design department and the editorial department. 226 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: Rose through the ranks and became an editor, which is 227 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: not in any way impressive. There were like nine of us, 228 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: and really spent that first year in Manhattan enthralled with 229 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: what it me to be living in Manhattan and working 230 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: as a designer. At the time, I knew that I 231 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: wasn't pursuing the fine art that I wanted to. I 232 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: wasn't pursuing writing as a career or art as a career. 233 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: I was pursuing something commercial. But at the time, the 234 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: lead gene for me, Sophia was really self sufficiency. I 235 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: wanted to be safe. I wanted to be able to 236 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: take care of myself. I wanted to be able to 237 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: be completely independent. I didn't want to have to rely 238 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: on anyone. So, inasmuch as I did have more creative 239 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: aspirations than commercial, I was also very financially oriented because 240 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to be able to live on my now. 241 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: I mean I had roommates. So when I say on 242 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: my own, just away from the family and be able 243 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: to pay my rent and you know, buy some pretty 244 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: clothes every now and then design again, Yes, what what? 245 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: Looking back? What designs or perhaps even designers would you 246 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: say in onced you most when you were getting started, 247 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: When when you were, as you said, you know, pounding 248 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: the pavement and going to your first job, do you 249 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: recall what you looked up to? Oh? Absolutely, I started 250 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: working in but really had a very very limited purview 251 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: of design. I was aware of the power of design, 252 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: but not really the discipline so much. And it really 253 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: wasn't until five or six years later that I became 254 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: aware of what was happening around me, because simultaneously to 255 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: my evolution as a designer, the New York School of 256 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: Design was first gaining real prominence, with people like Tiboor 257 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: Hellman Um, Emily Oberman, uh, Stephen Doyle and Bill Drantell 258 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: of Drentell Doyle, the folks at Manhattan Design, Double Space, Frankfort, Kipps, 259 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: ball Kind. The design that was coming out of New 260 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: York at that time really changed the game, really changed 261 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: to any century design. And suddenly I looked around me 262 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: and realized just how little I knew, how much better 263 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,959 Speaker 1: everyone was at this than I was, And decided at 264 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: that point, at about thirty years old, to stop what 265 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: I was doing at that point and try to learn 266 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: how to become a better designer and a better sort 267 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: of critical thinker, and kind of started over at thirty 268 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: one of my first sort of re one of my 269 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: first pivots into a sort of different way of living. 270 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: I love that. I also love a the acknowledgement of 271 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: a start over at a at a new decade, because 272 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: I think so many people, especially you know, any young 273 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: people who are listening, think they're supposed to have it 274 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: all figured out. They're supposed to make a decision in college, 275 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 1: choose a job, you know, and and I think it's 276 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: so delicious to constantly reinvent yourself. Yes, I almost think 277 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: of it less as a reinvention and more as a 278 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: permission love to explore what you learn, you're interested in 279 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 1: as you absolutely absolutely and I find it so heartbreaking 280 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: for young people to feel that they have to know 281 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: I teach. In addition to running my graduate program, I 282 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: teach an undergraduate class every semester, and I kind of 283 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,199 Speaker 1: do that for very selfish reasons. I really want to 284 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: know what the pulses of young people and hear what 285 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: they're thinking about and obsessed with and so forth. But 286 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: I do an exercise with them where they really think 287 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 1: about what their lives could be in the future. And 288 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: it's heartbreaking to realize how many people in their very 289 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: early twenties are already beginning to edit what's possible for 290 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: them before they even consider whether it's even really possible. 291 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: They just assume that they can't because someone else could 292 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: do it better. And there's so much comparison and so 293 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: much fear of not being able to make it, or 294 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 1: not being able to make it big, or and what 295 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: does it mean, you know, to make it big? And 296 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: they're all so consumed by not embarrassing themselves or their 297 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: parents or looking foolish. And I'm like, if you can't 298 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: look foolish when you're when can you. And it's astonishing 299 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: to see you mentioned the word before, that imprint already 300 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: being so solidified that it's almost like having to reorient 301 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: a neural pathway in their brains to get them to 302 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: consider possibilities that they've already at one determined wasn't possible 303 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: for them. And mostly I feel like it's important to 304 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: do that because I feel like that would have been 305 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: so wonderful for me to experience at that time, and 306 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: I didn't really have that, So it's it's something that 307 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: I'm really committed to doing. I love that I think 308 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: about it, you know, pondering why the pressure feels so intense, 309 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: and I wonder if it's because all of these tools 310 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: of design that we now have in our fingertips allow 311 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: us to see so much success that we've recalibrated our expectation, 312 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: and we think that the success that people share on 313 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: their highlight reel is their day to day experience. We 314 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: don't actually see it work that goes into the success 315 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: and the failure and the rejection. We just see everybody 316 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 1: nailing it all the time, and we wonder why we're 317 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: not nailing it without a doubt, without a doubt. You know, 318 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: if you look back to pre Facebook, when you look 319 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: back to even a time like my Space, you know, 320 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: I remember when my Space came out, my god daughter, 321 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: who was in high school at the time, asked me 322 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: why I thought it was so popular, And she was 323 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 1: asking me specifically because of my work in branding and 324 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: because of how much time I've spent positioning and repositioning 325 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: and redesigning really big brands. And I didn't know at 326 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: the time. I had no idea, and I was sort 327 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: of ashamed about not knowing, because here was this thing 328 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: at the time that had recently surpassed Google in the 329 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: number of page views that it was getting every day. 330 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: And it took me many years to figure it out. 331 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: And by the time I figured it out, my Space 332 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 1: was no longer the most popular brand in the world. 333 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: But at the time Facebook was so it still kind 334 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: of made sense. And you know, if you think about 335 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: the time before two before Facebook launched in two six, 336 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: the iPod had come out, and the thread that was 337 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: running through our culture was how we we're now living 338 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: in isolation we were living in The New York Times 339 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: called its social enemy because of the bubbles we were 340 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: living in in our iPods, where we were suddenly in 341 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: control of all of our entertainment and we were turning 342 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 1: into a generational loners. Well, if our basic human instinct 343 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: is to connect with each other, what does that do? 344 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 1: It sort of flies in the face of everything that 345 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: we have imprinted in us. And so it's not surprising 346 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: then that when we were able to connect through the device, 347 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: suddenly that this site became the most popular site in 348 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 1: the world and then transferred its power to the newer, better, sexier, 349 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: funnier social sites. Um, you know, we're not really addicted 350 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: to those sites where to the feeling we get being 351 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: connected to people, But then the insidious part is what 352 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: happens next. You know, that instinct to connect is there, 353 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: but so is our instinct to be the fittest, you know, 354 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: the survival of the fittest, and so what do we do? 355 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: We compare, we compare, and it's a real dilemma. It's 356 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 1: a challenge because Generation Z is now nickname Generation d 357 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: D for depressed, because they are constantly comparing and feeling 358 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: bad about who they are in relation to others. I mean, 359 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: I joke, now, who comes away from Instagram after thirty 360 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: minutes scrolling ever feeling good about themselves? Who? You know? Beyonce, 361 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: you know, j Lo, you know, and who knows if 362 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: they're even really on it? And it's them posting, you know. 363 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: I I don't know that what we're seeing is ever 364 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: really helpful anymore because it's just mostly I mean, we 365 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:39,959 Speaker 1: cheer for people when they have babies or get married, 366 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: but for those of us that are struggling with a 367 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,719 Speaker 1: bad day, having just had a fight with our friends whatever, 368 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: you know, it makes you feel really small and lonely. 369 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: And I and I worry about what that means for 370 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: the people that are being formed on it, you know, 371 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: for people that are older, we we still have that 372 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 1: early imprint that we can hold on to, but and 373 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 1: think about how hard it is for us, yes, yes, 374 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: so what about the young people who have never lived 375 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: without it. It's actually so interesting. You know you talked 376 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: about the the feeling of feeling lonely, the feeling of 377 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 1: feeling depressed. And I won't say like you, because I 378 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: don't know that there's anyone's brain like you. But similarly 379 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: to you, I see things very visually. Even when I 380 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: think about something, I get an image. Um, probably because I, 381 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: you know, grew up working for my dad who was 382 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: a photographer for his whole working career, and you know, 383 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: I make moving pictures for my career. And the image 384 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: that came to mind for me was that sad, sad, 385 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 1: classic photograph we've all seen of a person just sitting 386 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: alone at a slot machine in Las Vegas, looking depressed, 387 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: but they can't stop pulling the lever. And it comes 388 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: to mind because I actually read a book called How 389 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: to Break Up with Your Phone, and it talks about 390 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: it's a very smart You've got to read it. The irony. 391 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to fully be vulnerable with you and all 392 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 1: of our listeners today. I stopped about halfway through the book. 393 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: I was like, WHOA, I am not ready for this. 394 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: This is a lot of information, um. And so now 395 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: it just sits on my nightstand, taunting me to finish 396 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: it because I know that when I finished it, I 397 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: have to break up with my phone, and that is daunting. 398 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,479 Speaker 1: But it helped me recalibrate even my relationship to it, 399 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: because it taught me something about design. And it's the 400 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: designers of smartphones used the same studies that were done 401 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 1: to design slot machines. Yes, they're designed to be addictive 402 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 1: and repetitive and to make you think that just the 403 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: next time you touch that screen, the next time you 404 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: pull that lever, the next time you thumb Scurorell down, 405 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: you're going to win something, Yes, and you never do. 406 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: It's it's really astonishing how well they mimic that. And 407 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: you know, I've thought a lot about slot machines over 408 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: the years and why people are so addicted to them, 409 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: and why they sit there and just sort of press 410 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: and press and press. And there's that moment before the 411 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: numbers or the symbols hit where you have hope, where 412 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 1: you think everything can change in an all second. Yeah, 413 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 1: and and that is so as you said before, Delicious, 414 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: that idea that suddenly all your problems could be gone 415 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: if you win the jackpot, you know, and I think 416 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: that the same thing happens, not so much that everything 417 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 1: will be different in an instant with your phone, but 418 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: the constant somebody wants me, needs me, likes me, follows me, 419 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: is interested in me, is contacting me. You know, it's 420 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: that dopamine hit that can never ever be long lasting. 421 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: That's just the nature of dopamine. And and and that 422 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: sort of sense of that charge that we get, that 423 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: hit that we get. So I'm fascinated by this. We're 424 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: looking at this sort of sliver in time. You know, 425 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: we're talking about smartphones, iPhones, Instagram. Um. You mentioned Facebook 426 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: coming out around two thousand six, my Space before that, 427 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 1: and and what led us down this road was you 428 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: talking about this incredible boom and design from getting that 429 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: first cable magazine job in and what happened from that 430 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: year leading up to this permission slift. You wrote yourself 431 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: at thirty and you said something that I find so 432 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 1: interesting that you were aware of design but not the 433 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: discipline of it and getting into the discipline and the 434 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: expertise UM, and and the boom happening at a time when, 435 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: as you said, you know, the or net was coming, 436 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 1: Google was coming, the the access was being born. The 437 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: great side of tech. Can you tell us a little 438 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: bit about first what what it means to be aware 439 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: of it versus the discipline of it? And then I 440 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: then I'm curious about how technology enabled all of us 441 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: to understand design better. As a sort of second part, No, no, 442 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: no big deal. Well, you kind of have to go 443 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: back to the beginning of our modern history as the species, 444 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: because we started creating intentional marks to record our reality. 445 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: And that is something that we still do today. If 446 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: we go back about eighteen thousand years ago, and now 447 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: archaeologists are finding that it's far far, far far further 448 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: back in time. But the caves of let's go where 449 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: we found the markings of humans that were recording their history. 450 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: They were drawing the most that they were killing. They 451 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: were um drawing each other. We have been marking our 452 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: reality since the beginning of our modern history. And however 453 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: that is imprinted in us. Whatever that part of our 454 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: brain is that fundamentally needs to connect with others and share, 455 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: is exactly the same. Now. We went from that too, 456 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: beginning to record our relationship to what we believed was 457 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: a higher power. Every every tribe of religious people from 458 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: ten thousand years ago until now has used symbols to 459 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: signify their beliefs and affiliations. No matter where they were 460 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: on the planet, they all created symbols. They all created 461 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: places to worship together. They all created very specific rich wells. 462 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: Many of those rituals were identical despite different religious beliefs. 463 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: How women cover their hair, what we can and can't eat, 464 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: how we prepare our food. Marriage, the signification of marriage 465 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: with wedding bands or other marks to indicate being committed 466 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: to someone else. We behave as a species very very similarly, 467 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: regardless of our gender, our orientation, our race, our class. 468 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: These are all the foundations of our relationship with design, 469 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: because it was a decision that we made to create 470 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: a mark that, through sharing, created consensus, and that consensus 471 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: is what allows us to all keep track of reality 472 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: because we believe something very similar about this specific thing. 473 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: Our earliest our earliest fights as a species were because 474 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,959 Speaker 1: we were fighting either over land or God. Whose beliefs 475 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: are right? Whose land does this belong to? Most of 476 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: our early wars were religious in nature, and we created 477 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: flags on the battlefield to signify what site we were 478 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: on because essentially people look the same, and so there 479 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: was no way to tell friend from foe, and then 480 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: that turned into crests and shields, and that turned into 481 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: brand logos and the Nike swoosh and everything else. It's 482 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: it's really quite an astonishing, consistent way of behaving that 483 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: has changed very little in the last ten thousand years. 484 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: That's so cool. I've read an article just this summer 485 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: about a group of archaeologists studying cave paintings, old old 486 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: carvings and caves, and they were theorizing that perhaps the 487 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: imagery that they were seeing that then had these strange 488 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: sort of vertical lines carved through them. They thought, oh, 489 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: we're people trying to essentially paint over the canvas, so 490 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,239 Speaker 1: they could, you know, do something new, and then realized, oh, 491 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: this isn't working in the rock. And it took them 492 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,239 Speaker 1: some time, and what they finally realized was they were 493 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: in these caves with you know, giant flashlights torches, analyzing, 494 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: and that in history man didn't have that, And so 495 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: they brought fire in and realized that as you moved 496 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: through the cave in the in the actual light of 497 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: a campfire a burning torch, that these strange squiggly lines 498 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: as you went from one side of an image, you know, 499 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: a few feet over to the other made the images 500 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: look like they were moving. Oh God, that's so great. 501 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: And these scientists, I mean, I have goose bumps thinking 502 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: about it. They wrote about how this was the first 503 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: movie that these cave carvings were done in a manner 504 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: that in firelight looked like they were moving, the animals, 505 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: the grass, the people, and I I just thought, to 506 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: your point, we've always tried to preserve this. You know, 507 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: our memories are our experiences, and and I I suppose 508 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: it's why I love to lean into experts like you, 509 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: minds like yours, you know, shows like Abstract on Netflix. 510 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: I mean, from typography to lighting design. I just I 511 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: love seeing the inside of of so many of these 512 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: people's minds. And I I wonder if for you, loving 513 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: the sort of history and the totality and the possibility 514 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: all wrapped up in design, is that what motivated you 515 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: to to start Design Matters, to interview other designers, to 516 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: you know, to launch I mean, you launched a podcast 517 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: sixteen years ago, talk about me on the Tip of 518 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: the Spear in what arguably is a was at that 519 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: time a new design model of communication and exploration. I mean, 520 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,399 Speaker 1: what what made you decide to start that, and how 521 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: in the world did you pick a podcast? Then, well, 522 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: it's it was an interesting time in my life. I 523 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: talked a little bit about how you know, those black 524 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: years turned into that. That first I would say thirteen 525 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: or so years of my career I called I call 526 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: them experiments in rejection and failure because they were just 527 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: saying I just kept trying from thing to thing to 528 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: thing to thing, and finally fell into branding quite by accident. 529 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: And then yeah, I went from design into branding, and 530 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 1: it's a natural evolution and a lot of people do 531 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: it now, but at the time I had no idea 532 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: what I was doing. It was I needed a job, 533 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: jub I had sort of failed as a designer. I'd 534 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 1: sort of filled as a project manager at the time, 535 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: and somebody was offering me a job as a salesperson 536 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: and I needed to pay my mortgage and took the 537 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: job and ended up being quite by accident, very very 538 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: good at it, and then rose back up through the 539 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: ranks over those years. But when I got to Sterling Brands, 540 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: I first experienced my professional success. That was like the 541 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,879 Speaker 1: first time in my life I was ever really acknowledged 542 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: as good at something, and so for the first eight 543 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: years of doing it, that's all I wanted to do. 544 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: You get that first taste of feeling good about yourself, 545 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: It's like I want more. I want more and more dopamine, 546 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: more dope me more, dope meine. And so I gave 547 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: up all of my sort of creative pursuits which had 548 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: kind of gone nowhere. Um. I stopped writing, I stopped drawing, 549 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: I put my guitar into the bed. I even stopped 550 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: doing textile work and needle point and things that I've 551 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 1: been doing just for fun and just worked seven and 552 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: it was, you know, and looking back on it, I'm 553 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: glad I did it. It got me an opportunity to 554 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 1: sell a very successful company and do really well for 555 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: myself at the time. But after about eight years, I 556 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: started to feel like, you know, everything I'm doing is 557 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: so commercial and it's all about return on an investment, market, 558 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: share position, shareholders, consumers. I'm losing my creative soul. I 559 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: actually thought it might be dead or certainly dying. And 560 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: then one day I got a cold call from a 561 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: internet a fledgling internet radio network who had seen something 562 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: that I had written about election graphics that had gone 563 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,720 Speaker 1: a little bit viral. And this was in two thousand 564 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: and four and it was m a piece that I 565 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,240 Speaker 1: had written about purple states as opposed to red or blue. 566 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: And I wrote it with a dear friend of mine, 567 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: Mark Kingsley, on the first ever design blog called Speak Up. 568 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: And they called me. I thought they were offering me 569 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: a job, Sophia. I was like, are you offering me 570 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: a job? Was like a talk show host? And like, 571 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: know my my eyes had like the money sign like 572 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: bugs bunny, like just rolling around, and I was like, 573 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: oh my god, they weren't. They were offering me an 574 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: opportunity to pay them to create a vanity show on 575 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 1: their radio network. And and that was very typical at 576 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: the time and it might still be. I was. It 577 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: was a real hall Mary. I was like, this is 578 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,800 Speaker 1: kind of creative, and maybe I can interview my clients 579 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: and I can kind of have it be a little 580 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 1: bit about branding, which is what they wanted, but I 581 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: can really you can go in as a trojan horse. 582 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,800 Speaker 1: I'll say it's about branding, but really be about design, 583 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 1: and and that's and that's sort of what I did. 584 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: I paid them five thousand dollars to produce thirteen episodes, 585 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: and in February of two thousand and five, my my 586 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: little radio, live radio show launched. At the time, Sterling 587 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: Brands was located in the Empire State Building, so I 588 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,399 Speaker 1: could very legitimately say broadcasting live from the Empire State 589 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: Building and and that was it. It was on one 590 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: time live during the week on Fridays at three pm 591 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: Eastern and then rerun three hours of the morning during 592 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 1: the week, and one of the one of the co 593 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: founders of Speak Up rany Go, miss Plascio, said to me, 594 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 1: you know, it's really inconvenient just have the show on 595 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: one time a week that we can listen to. Why 596 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: don't you take the digital file and uploaded to Apple, 597 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 1: upload it to iTunes like an indie musician. There was 598 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 1: no podcast section at that point, and I thought, oh, 599 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: what a great idea. That's a great idea, and so 600 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:40,359 Speaker 1: that's what I started to do and inadvertently became one 601 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 1: of the first and longest running podcast But it wasn't 602 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 1: intended in any way to be I wasn't intending for 603 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 1: it to be, you know, a pioneering thing, and the 604 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: sound at the time was utterly unlistenable. I was doing 605 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: interviews Sofia with people and I was sitting across from 606 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: them in the Empire Stab building. They'd to my office. Um, 607 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 1: and we each have a handset, a landline telephone handset 608 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: that was then put through a modem and sent to 609 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: my producers in Arizona. And I swear my producers could 610 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:15,720 Speaker 1: have been stand ins for Wayne and Garth in Wayne's world. Um. 611 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: And you know, there were times where I felt like, hey, guys, 612 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: are you there? Are you? Are you like smoking a 613 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: bong or something? You know, it was so it was 614 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: so bootstrap and bed and but I really fell in 615 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,400 Speaker 1: love with it. And I did a hundred episodes on 616 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: Voice America. And then in two thousand nine, the late 617 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: great Builder and Tell, one of my heroes from my 618 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: earlier career attempts, approached me and asked me if I 619 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,839 Speaker 1: would be interested in bringing it to his blog, which 620 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,840 Speaker 1: was also another one of the first design blogs and 621 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: Design Observer. And but with the proviso that I improved 622 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,279 Speaker 1: the sound quality, It's like, you have to get a 623 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,359 Speaker 1: real producer, you have to be able to do this 624 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: professionally and not some you know, clap trap, little bootstrap radio, 625 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: rinky ding, you know, can with a string on it 626 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 1: kind of thing. And I didn't have any access to 627 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,880 Speaker 1: producers or didn't know anybody, and so he introduced me 628 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 1: to Curtis Fox, who was then doing the New Yorkers podcast, 629 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: and Curtis became my producer has been my producer ever since. 630 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 1: So it's twelve years and um I was on Design 631 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 1: Observer exclusively for a really long time. Two years ago 632 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 1: I started to be now part of the Ted Audio Collective. 633 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: So after my Ted Talk, I was invited to participate 634 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: in the Ted Audio Collective. So now the show is 635 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:46,800 Speaker 1: distributed through TED and it's just grown very organically over 636 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,240 Speaker 1: you know, it's nearly seventeen years now, and it became 637 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,239 Speaker 1: one of these sort of unexpected gifts of a lifetime 638 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: that is so cool when you look back at all 639 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: of these episodes that you've recorded. Are are there episodes 640 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 1: in particular that you always think about when people ask 641 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: what episodes do you think about? You know, things that 642 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 1: have changed the way that you approach your creative endeavors 643 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: or or the way that you think about things. Yes, 644 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 1: and lots for different reasons. My first interview with Milton Glazer, 645 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: who was the most sort of the first legend I 646 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: ever interviewed. I was very intimidated. Also, my my first 647 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 1: interview with Massimovanielli, another legendary designer who at the time 648 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,359 Speaker 1: I first was trying to reach him, didn't have an 649 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 1: email address. That's how far back this goes. And I 650 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: decided to call his studio and he answered the phone 651 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 1: was likely, sir, Can you tell our listeners who may 652 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: not be familiar with them a little bit about to 653 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: whom you're refer Yeah, Milton Glazer designed the I Heart 654 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 1: New York logo. He designed that very very famous Bob 655 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 1: Dylan poster with the streams of color coming out of 656 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:15,760 Speaker 1: his hair and he's in profile. Massimo van Yelli designed 657 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,239 Speaker 1: the American Airlines logo, not the current one, but the 658 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 1: one before that, and that was in existence for I 659 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: don't know. It feels like most of history um so 660 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: so people that really created the visual language of our time. 661 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 1: And and what's interesting about those two in particular, I 662 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 1: think they're the only two Sophia that I interviewed that 663 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: seems sort of content with how their lives have have unfolded. 664 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 1: They didn't have any particular regrets, They were very proud 665 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,720 Speaker 1: of their legacy. They were still very engaged in their work, 666 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,240 Speaker 1: and I came to realize that I think it's because 667 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,840 Speaker 1: I interviewed them when they were both in their late eighties, 668 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: when they had like no more fs to give kind 669 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 1: of thing. But and that's the only common denominator like 670 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,919 Speaker 1: they everybody else that I've interviewed. And this is something 671 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 1: I've really come to understand in a way that I 672 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:19,320 Speaker 1: never expected. Everybody wants more. Everybody wants a bigger life 673 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: and a bigger way of being able to connect, and 674 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: everybody wants to make things. Everybody wants to make a difference. 675 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:33,440 Speaker 1: And very few people, aside from Milton or Massimo, of 676 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 1: the nearly five people I've interviewed now are just like Okay, 677 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: as is. They just want to keep growing, they want 678 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,879 Speaker 1: to keep learning, they want to keep making. And I 679 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,800 Speaker 1: think that that's part of what being an artist or 680 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: a designer or creative person is, just this constant evolution 681 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:58,440 Speaker 1: and reinvention of creativity making things. When you think about that, 682 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 1: it strikes me as really a perspective on the world. 683 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:06,319 Speaker 1: And I am curious how you think your background, your 684 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 1: your level of expertise in design itself affects the way 685 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,000 Speaker 1: that you see and interact with the world around you. Well, 686 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:19,280 Speaker 1: there's sort of the practical and then some of the ritual, 687 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 1: because I'm so schooled in now understanding how brands become 688 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 1: what they are and what it takes to maintain the 689 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,720 Speaker 1: level of a Nike or an Apple or why things 690 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,839 Speaker 1: like the Tropicana debacle of two thousand and what was that. 691 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:40,759 Speaker 1: I don't remember what year it was, but the year 692 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:46,920 Speaker 1: that they redesigned and lost their market share in six weeks. Um. 693 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,360 Speaker 1: You know, I'm really aware of the of the inner 694 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 1: workings of this methodology. I understand that kind of madness. 695 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,320 Speaker 1: So there's that, and then there's just the pure aesthetics, 696 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,839 Speaker 1: sometimes just admiring something for a cheer, beauty or ease 697 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 1: of use, or how it makes you feel or how 698 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:09,400 Speaker 1: you are changed through the experience of using it somehow, 699 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 1: and then also the sort of behind the scenes how 700 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,400 Speaker 1: did how did that happen? And trying to re engineer 701 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,879 Speaker 1: how something like that made it to market. So yeah, 702 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 1: I can't I can't help but still do those things. 703 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:29,200 Speaker 1: When you think about that branding brain that you have 704 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 1: because you've you've worked in it, you see it, you 705 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,840 Speaker 1: know it I imagine you can't turn it off. Sometimes, 706 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:41,319 Speaker 1: much to my dismay, I have that. I have that 707 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,279 Speaker 1: with my activist brain. Sometimes I just want to go 708 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 1: to a dinner party, and the minute I hear that 709 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,719 Speaker 1: something's wrong somewhere, I'm like, I can't, so I have 710 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,959 Speaker 1: to go read an article. So I totally get it. Yeah, 711 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 1: you just you can't. You can't turn off. You can't 712 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 1: turn it off after after a time. I think when 713 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,000 Speaker 1: you when you dedicate so much of yourself to something, 714 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 1: and and I wonder when you think about brands you've 715 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 1: worked on, or perhaps you know lessons from the world 716 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,960 Speaker 1: of branding that might be great to share. I I 717 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:17,759 Speaker 1: know there's folks at home or like, wait, but I 718 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,040 Speaker 1: want to know more about what she what she means, 719 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 1: what's she talking about? Are there some of those things 720 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,440 Speaker 1: you might be able to share with us? Absolutely? Um. 721 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,960 Speaker 1: There are two that come immediately to mind, and the 722 00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 1: two of the most recognizable marks in the world and 723 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: have been for a very long time. The first is 724 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,759 Speaker 1: the Nike swoosh, of course. Um. The Nike swoosh was 725 00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,040 Speaker 1: created by a college student named Caroline Davidson, and she 726 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,880 Speaker 1: did it overnight for Phil Knight. I think she was 727 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,759 Speaker 1: paid at the time. She's still she's since been made whole, 728 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,040 Speaker 1: but at the time she was paid thirty five dollars 729 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 1: when film Night first saw Phil Knight as the CEO 730 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,239 Speaker 1: of Nike. When he first saw the logo, uh, he 731 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,120 Speaker 1: didn't like it. Actually said, I don't love it, but 732 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,239 Speaker 1: but maybe it'll grow on me. He had a deadline, 733 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,799 Speaker 1: he had sneaker shoeboxes to print, and he needed the logo. 734 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: He preferred the Adidas logo. He felt that that had 735 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:18,279 Speaker 1: more of a sort of sense of movement. And so 736 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,840 Speaker 1: I asked people, now, you know, is it the mark 737 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,719 Speaker 1: or is it the marketing? Would we be able to 738 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:32,000 Speaker 1: recognize that mark as solely Nikes if a hundred million 739 00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,840 Speaker 1: dollars of advertising wasn't put behind it every year? And 740 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,239 Speaker 1: then I challenge people. I'm like, Okay, does it look 741 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,719 Speaker 1: like anything else you have ever seen? And people are 742 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 1: usually like no. Look at a box of Newport's cigarettes, 743 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 1: turn it upside down, and the Newport iconography is becomes 744 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,279 Speaker 1: the Nike logo. When you turn it upside down, you 745 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,600 Speaker 1: can look at something like the Capital one logo, which 746 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,480 Speaker 1: is very similar to the Nike logo on sort of 747 00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,360 Speaker 1: its side. So is it the mark or is it 748 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,719 Speaker 1: the marketing? And then and then I'm going to give 749 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:10,040 Speaker 1: you another example which is sort of mind blowing and 750 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,600 Speaker 1: trigger alert because I'll be talking about the Holocaust for 751 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:18,799 Speaker 1: a moment and Hitler, I'll talk about the swastika. So 752 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 1: before it was appropriated and stolen by Hitler, the spastica, 753 00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:31,160 Speaker 1: which comes from the sanscrit words FastICA um, was used everywhere. 754 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,880 Speaker 1: It was a symbol, an ancient symbol in Sanskrit. The 755 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:43,280 Speaker 1: Sanskrit definition is good luck, well being in fortune. So 756 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:48,279 Speaker 1: this mark was used in the nineteen twenties and I 757 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 1: have a I have an actual photo of this. All 758 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:54,640 Speaker 1: of this is absolutely true. In the nineties, by Coca Cola, 759 00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,279 Speaker 1: they designed a good luck bottle opener. It was used 760 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,320 Speaker 1: by the Boy Scouts. It was used on poker chips, 761 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:05,799 Speaker 1: good luck poker chips, playing cards, cigar rappers, road signs. 762 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:10,879 Speaker 1: Even the Jane tribe used the spastica on a hand 763 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:16,200 Speaker 1: of God emblem that they created for worship. It was 764 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:21,320 Speaker 1: only when Hitler appropriated it stole the mark first to 765 00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,880 Speaker 1: it was like it depends that there's backwards. There's so 766 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,880 Speaker 1: many different ways that it's been used. But yes, he did, 767 00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:30,799 Speaker 1: he did turn it, But there are lots of other 768 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,759 Speaker 1: places where it's not. It's it's in history where it 769 00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,160 Speaker 1: was in one direction or or the other. The other, yeah, 770 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:42,840 Speaker 1: it was. It was used quite similarly in either direction, 771 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,080 Speaker 1: and we don't necessarily know if it was intentional that 772 00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:53,720 Speaker 1: the direction was what it was historically. But he stole 773 00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,360 Speaker 1: that emblem and has and created a situation where it 774 00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,719 Speaker 1: is now what Stephen Heller, the historian says, is a 775 00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:04,600 Speaker 1: mark beyond redemption. You know, it could never be rehabilitated. 776 00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:09,520 Speaker 1: But but it did start out very much as something else. 777 00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:13,239 Speaker 1: You know, it was created for for eons. You know, 778 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,600 Speaker 1: it was there was consensus around this mark meaning good 779 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,960 Speaker 1: luck and good fortune, and then through the use as 780 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:25,359 Speaker 1: a Nazi symbol, became turned into something completely different. And 781 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,680 Speaker 1: now there's consensus around that, and that's what we associate 782 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,480 Speaker 1: that mark with. So it's it's quite intriguing to look 783 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:37,640 Speaker 1: at things like the hand of God, things like the swastika, 784 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:41,680 Speaker 1: things like Nike, the Nike swoosh, any any religious symbol. 785 00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:45,319 Speaker 1: You know, they're all created in very similar manners, and 786 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:50,120 Speaker 1: they all need consensus to be sort of to be 787 00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:55,640 Speaker 1: amplified through culture, and they need to be widely shared 788 00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,359 Speaker 1: in order to achieve that. So there needs to be 789 00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,880 Speaker 1: a sense of a Philly Asian with those marks that 790 00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:08,440 Speaker 1: then engage you too into that tribe, so to speak. Yeah, 791 00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,200 Speaker 1: And when you think about iconography that exists in so 792 00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,799 Speaker 1: many places, you know, the the famed image of the 793 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 1: flaming Heart. Um, it is really interesting how so many 794 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,719 Speaker 1: versions of us in so many places have come to 795 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:31,120 Speaker 1: the same symbology. Absolutely, if you look at the origination 796 00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,880 Speaker 1: of our religious symbols, these were happening all over the 797 00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:41,520 Speaker 1: world simultaneously, simultaneously, and we we weren't traveling by a 798 00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:47,520 Speaker 1: steam steam roller, we weren't traveling by high speed trains. 799 00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:51,000 Speaker 1: We we had no way of being able to know 800 00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,200 Speaker 1: what people around the globe we're doing, and they were 801 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,279 Speaker 1: happening all at the same time. I think a lot 802 00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:03,200 Speaker 1: about Liz Gilbert's book Big Magic. It talks about wild 803 00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,640 Speaker 1: instances of that, including a story of hers that she 804 00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,040 Speaker 1: started working on a book, and this the particulars of 805 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,160 Speaker 1: the book, I mean a character who was going in 806 00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,920 Speaker 1: a certain era to to a certain part of the 807 00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,560 Speaker 1: Amazon with a very specific name and then she put 808 00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:20,720 Speaker 1: the book away. She had things happening in her life, 809 00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,160 Speaker 1: and you know, two years later, she runs into another 810 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:25,799 Speaker 1: writer at a conference who says, you know, I've just 811 00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:29,680 Speaker 1: started working on this book and it's the same book, right, 812 00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,719 Speaker 1: And they were both just floored, and she said, you know, 813 00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,919 Speaker 1: ideas that want to be born, they're gonna they're gonna 814 00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:40,080 Speaker 1: pop into multiple brains to get out. And I think 815 00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,120 Speaker 1: I think about that in terms of the sorts of 816 00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:46,640 Speaker 1: things you're referring to, the you know, coincidental timelines and 817 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,040 Speaker 1: a few coincidences. Yeah, I mean it's sort of a 818 00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,080 Speaker 1: confluence though. Yeah, it's a confluence that it feels like 819 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:56,680 Speaker 1: it's both magic like that and then also something very 820 00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,640 Speaker 1: deliberate and intentional. And it reminds me a little bit 821 00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,880 Speaker 1: of that seen in the Devilwares product where Miranda Priestley 822 00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:08,200 Speaker 1: is talking about Cerulean blue and that lumpy sweater that 823 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:13,240 Speaker 1: Anne Hathaway's character was wearing, and how that was chosen 824 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:18,120 Speaker 1: for her by the very minds in that room because 825 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:25,000 Speaker 1: of their ability to market and manufacture messaging. M hm. 826 00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:31,120 Speaker 1: So when you think about the ability to influence, how 827 00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,960 Speaker 1: do you then apply that sort of power out in 828 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,279 Speaker 1: the world for good. You know you mentioned earlier that 829 00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,959 Speaker 1: you work with Marishka on No More And I think 830 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:45,440 Speaker 1: about the symbol of that, that turquoise logo. I know 831 00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,440 Speaker 1: the moment I think of it, And that might be 832 00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,640 Speaker 1: because she's my friend, and it also might be because 833 00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,359 Speaker 1: I've shared it, and it might just be because I've 834 00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,400 Speaker 1: seen it on billboards all over the place, but I 835 00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:59,840 Speaker 1: know what it is. Did you assist with that design 836 00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,719 Speaker 1: as well? Yes, I did. Actually I worked on it 837 00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,759 Speaker 1: and I designed it at Sterling Brands with my friend 838 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,399 Speaker 1: and colleague, Christine Mao. She was then the global design 839 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:13,000 Speaker 1: director at Kimberly Clark. And there was a consortium of 840 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,520 Speaker 1: organizations back when we first did this that came together 841 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:21,040 Speaker 1: along with Mrshka's Foundation, which is Joyful Heart Foundation, to 842 00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:26,080 Speaker 1: really try as a as a group of organizations to 843 00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:32,160 Speaker 1: eradicate sexual domestic violence, sexual assault, and child abuse. And 844 00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,320 Speaker 1: we wanted a simple We wanted to create a mark 845 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,840 Speaker 1: that would be telegraphic. There was lots of reasons. We 846 00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,520 Speaker 1: chose that that little dot in the middle of the 847 00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,759 Speaker 1: blue circle is what we called the vanishing point. So 848 00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:49,759 Speaker 1: eventually this goal of eliminating and eradicating sexual violence, um 849 00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,320 Speaker 1: and now the rape kick backlog. But that doesn't always 850 00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,359 Speaker 1: mean it's going to be successful. You know, you do 851 00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:59,440 Speaker 1: have to be able to launch something like that with 852 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:04,160 Speaker 1: a very specific, very single minded strategy that you hope 853 00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,520 Speaker 1: will ignite the imagination of the world. And it doesn't 854 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,120 Speaker 1: always happen. And the mystery here is that you never 855 00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:12,960 Speaker 1: know when it's going to happen. You never know, And 856 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,879 Speaker 1: if anybody tells you that they do, don't believe them, 857 00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:21,000 Speaker 1: because it's it's a match that gets ignited by the zeitgeist. 858 00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:25,120 Speaker 1: It's not something that you can predict. Otherwise everything that 859 00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:28,719 Speaker 1: was intended to go viral and be successful would And 860 00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,600 Speaker 1: we know how many things are failed that are failed, 861 00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,200 Speaker 1: you know, most startups, I would say eighty at least 862 00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:39,320 Speaker 1: eight of startups fail. It's so hard, you know, that idea. 863 00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:41,400 Speaker 1: You've got to really hold it with an open hand. 864 00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,279 Speaker 1: And I imagine for something like this, a cause that 865 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:47,520 Speaker 1: is not only so meaningful to so many people in 866 00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:52,640 Speaker 1: the world, but also to you personally, given your childhood experiences, 867 00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,920 Speaker 1: how how hard it must be to put it out 868 00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 1: there and say, I don't know if it's going to work, 869 00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:01,400 Speaker 1: but I want it to work so badly. Yeah, you know, 870 00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:06,000 Speaker 1: it's really interesting. At the time, we never doubted it, 871 00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,040 Speaker 1: and I don't know if it was because it was 872 00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:12,279 Speaker 1: so many really impassioned people. You know, it was the 873 00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:15,760 Speaker 1: Joyful Heart Foundation and Avon and Verizon and Kimberly Clark 874 00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:19,719 Speaker 1: and for the first time corporations were even talking about this. 875 00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:25,879 Speaker 1: So there was so much socialized shame associated with this, 876 00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,520 Speaker 1: and I know you know this too, that even talking 877 00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:33,120 Speaker 1: about it made people feel bad, feel icky, feel damaged, 878 00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:38,640 Speaker 1: feel shameful. Victims never wanted to disclose because they felt 879 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,760 Speaker 1: that somehow it was something bad about them as opposed 880 00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:45,279 Speaker 1: to the perpetrator. And so for the first time we 881 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:50,640 Speaker 1: started talking about these things, and it was really right 882 00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:54,799 Speaker 1: before me too, and there was this ground swell of 883 00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:59,520 Speaker 1: people that were just coming forward and sharing and I 884 00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:03,000 Speaker 1: mean share personally, but also sharing the information with the world. 885 00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:08,960 Speaker 1: So it was almost like this devastatingly thirsty planet that 886 00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:13,000 Speaker 1: needed to come together to start to protest this, because 887 00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:16,280 Speaker 1: if you think back before that, people weren't talking about 888 00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,520 Speaker 1: it at all and now they are, and so at 889 00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:22,360 Speaker 1: the time and I was actually feeling a lot of 890 00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:25,240 Speaker 1: my own shame. I hadn't really disclosed to anybody other 891 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,920 Speaker 1: than really close friends and my family. I felt very 892 00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,040 Speaker 1: damaged by it. I felt very less than because of it. 893 00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:34,640 Speaker 1: But going back to you know, one of the questions 894 00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:38,880 Speaker 1: that you asked about guests, certainly one of the pivotal 895 00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:44,000 Speaker 1: moments in my growth and simultaneously the evolution of of 896 00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:47,720 Speaker 1: the podcast was my interview. Was this collective interviews Tim 897 00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:50,240 Speaker 1: Ferris and I have done on each other's podcasts and 898 00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:55,080 Speaker 1: the subsequent conversations that we've had about early childhood abuse 899 00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:58,000 Speaker 1: and what that does to a person, and his journey 900 00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:00,320 Speaker 1: has been very different than mine, but they co they 901 00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:05,320 Speaker 1: sort of coincide in lots of points, and so having 902 00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:12,320 Speaker 1: those conversations have fundamentally changed my life, mostly because the 903 00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:17,640 Speaker 1: shame is gone and and that's you know, I'm going 904 00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:20,840 Speaker 1: to be sixty very soon. So that only happened in 905 00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:24,120 Speaker 1: the last couple of years, and so it's been a 906 00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:29,480 Speaker 1: real journey to get to that place when you carry 907 00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:33,600 Speaker 1: that giant bag for so long and then and then 908 00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:37,000 Speaker 1: let it and then let it drop. That that certainly 909 00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,840 Speaker 1: has been a big moment for me through the podcast. 910 00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:43,000 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have I wouldn't have met tim otherwise, that's 911 00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:48,400 Speaker 1: so incredible. What an amazing moment when you whatever, does 912 00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:50,600 Speaker 1: it finally, when you finally get to put the backpack 913 00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:55,640 Speaker 1: down and you realize how heavy it's been the whole time? Right? Right? Yeah? 914 00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:58,640 Speaker 1: Is there something that you know thinking about that that 915 00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:03,040 Speaker 1: that weight of shame which is so deeply misplaced onto 916 00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:08,560 Speaker 1: victims and survivors rather than perpetrators. We're in this moment, 917 00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,760 Speaker 1: it feels, you know, a zeitgeist moment and culture where 918 00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:15,200 Speaker 1: we're really beginning to, as you said, talk about these things, 919 00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:20,680 Speaker 1: acknowledge them, eradicate the shame, educate people about the circumstances. 920 00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:24,240 Speaker 1: Is Is there something that you wish more people understood 921 00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:31,240 Speaker 1: about domestic abuse that it's never the victim's choice, and 922 00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:35,600 Speaker 1: if they're still staying, it's because they have no other choice. 923 00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,920 Speaker 1: That's certainly how I feel about the about domestic violence. 924 00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:45,680 Speaker 1: When it comes to child abuse, the fundamental fabric of 925 00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:50,960 Speaker 1: a child psyche is obliterated when they're trespassed in that 926 00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:56,680 Speaker 1: way and they don't then have any resources that they 927 00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:58,840 Speaker 1: could depend on. It's not just the abuse, it's the 928 00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:02,560 Speaker 1: conditions that lead to the abuse, especially systemic abuse where 929 01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,800 Speaker 1: people that are being abused are too afraid to say 930 01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:10,000 Speaker 1: something because they've been told that they'll be killed, or 931 01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:12,280 Speaker 1: their mother will be killed, or their brother will be killed, 932 01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:17,400 Speaker 1: or they'll be killed. You know. Um, there's there's it's 933 01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:24,280 Speaker 1: never ever the victim's fault. Ever, there's nothing that anybody 934 01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:28,360 Speaker 1: could ever say that would make this the victim's fault. 935 01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,720 Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter what they were wearing or what 936 01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:34,960 Speaker 1: they weren't wearing there, what they were saying, what they 937 01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:41,120 Speaker 1: were doing. If somebody trespasses another person's body, then they 938 01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:46,280 Speaker 1: trespasser is always at fault, and that's something people don't 939 01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:49,240 Speaker 1: always understand, you know. It's it's really a lot of 940 01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:51,880 Speaker 1: the work that you've done in in the work that 941 01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:53,760 Speaker 1: you've done as an actor and as an activist, the 942 01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:57,080 Speaker 1: work that Mauritsk has done, that's really mainstreamed it. And 943 01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:59,360 Speaker 1: I don't mean that in a pejorative way. I mean 944 01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:05,000 Speaker 1: that You're audiences have been so big and so um 945 01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:09,280 Speaker 1: desirous of this content, to this these stories, um, this 946 01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,800 Speaker 1: evidence that they are not to blame. That has changed 947 01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:17,320 Speaker 1: the culture of our time. Yeah, I think it's an 948 01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:23,040 Speaker 1: incredible privilege to tell and to fight to tell stories 949 01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:30,000 Speaker 1: like these because what they've done is they've modeled reality 950 01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:33,680 Speaker 1: for people, and once you see it, you can't continue 951 01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:36,880 Speaker 1: to believe, oh that person must have said something, Oh 952 01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:39,240 Speaker 1: it must have been you know what. It takes two 953 01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:43,560 Speaker 1: to tango all that sort of nonsense. That that just 954 01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:48,720 Speaker 1: really excises the reality of you know, abuse or violence 955 01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,800 Speaker 1: or harassment that people go through. And to be able 956 01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:55,680 Speaker 1: to tell real stories, um, you know, these are people's 957 01:01:55,840 --> 01:02:00,600 Speaker 1: real stories that were often representing it's. It's been an 958 01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:04,800 Speaker 1: incredible privilege to help um, you know, tear the mask 959 01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:11,440 Speaker 1: off and get real about it. And oddly it always 960 01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:16,360 Speaker 1: circles back to design. There is a design to creating 961 01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:18,560 Speaker 1: a world. To tell that story, you have to design 962 01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:23,680 Speaker 1: a container. You have to create space for survivors to 963 01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:25,600 Speaker 1: come and tell their stories to writers, and then for 964 01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:28,520 Speaker 1: writers to change just enough of the details that we 965 01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,040 Speaker 1: can protect the survivors who've spoken to us. You know, 966 01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:35,640 Speaker 1: it's it is to me an act of love and 967 01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:44,000 Speaker 1: resistance and a very tender and consider it design. Yeah. Absolutely. 968 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:48,040 Speaker 1: I've often been asked because even before my work with Mauritika, 969 01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:52,200 Speaker 1: I really loved the television show and watched it on repeat, 970 01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:57,280 Speaker 1: and me too, even before meeting my wife Frank Sanga 971 01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:02,520 Speaker 1: and finding out that she also watch those shows. We've 972 01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:05,080 Speaker 1: both been asked why we like these shows so much, 973 01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:07,080 Speaker 1: you know, if we've both been through the things that 974 01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:10,080 Speaker 1: we've been through. Um, she's also a huge fan of yours, 975 01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:12,480 Speaker 1: by the way, and we only will watch the reruns 976 01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:16,760 Speaker 1: of of p D that you're in. The show changed 977 01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:18,960 Speaker 1: so much after you left. I have to say, I 978 01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:22,240 Speaker 1: just love rock Sands so much. And every time, you know, 979 01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:25,400 Speaker 1: she responds to something I say online, I'm like, oh God, 980 01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:27,920 Speaker 1: it's a good day. So that she was two of 981 01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:30,960 Speaker 1: you to get Oh, she was so jealous that I 982 01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:33,240 Speaker 1: was on the show. So I'm going to introduce you guys, 983 01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:36,160 Speaker 1: hope please. She so wants to come on. I just 984 01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:40,280 Speaker 1: I also just so want to come over and hang. Yeah. 985 01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:43,120 Speaker 1: But but the thing that we we both acknowledged when 986 01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:44,920 Speaker 1: we're first first getting to know each other, like, oh, 987 01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:46,760 Speaker 1: do people ever ask you why you like these shows 988 01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:48,600 Speaker 1: so much? Because they do the same with me too, 989 01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:50,920 Speaker 1: Why would you want to keep reliving you know, the 990 01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:56,400 Speaker 1: horrors of humanity? It's like no, no, no, we're watching justice. 991 01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:01,640 Speaker 1: We're watching justice and action. We're watching a different outcome 992 01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:05,320 Speaker 1: than what we had, and it makes us feel safer 993 01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:11,600 Speaker 1: because it gives you the possibility of saving, of someone 994 01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:14,520 Speaker 1: being saved, of someone being helped in the way that 995 01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:17,959 Speaker 1: you or I or she or anyone listening has felt 996 01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:20,880 Speaker 1: let down by a system that didn't show up for us. 997 01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:25,160 Speaker 1: To watch someone show up and to watch someone fight 998 01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:31,920 Speaker 1: for a person being harmed, it's it's incredible And what 999 01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:33,960 Speaker 1: a what a whirl when that was for me to 1000 01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:37,919 Speaker 1: be working with her, you know, a hero of mine 1001 01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:40,000 Speaker 1: and a woman who I call a friend, and you 1002 01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:41,920 Speaker 1: know now to have been given the privilege of her 1003 01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:44,959 Speaker 1: friendship through a job, to be working on a job 1004 01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,080 Speaker 1: that I had said I'd always wanted to do because 1005 01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:52,840 Speaker 1: of the story she was telling, and to be you know, 1006 01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,760 Speaker 1: behind closed doors, not not ever on her set. Obviously 1007 01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:57,560 Speaker 1: she runs one of the best sets I've ever been on, 1008 01:04:57,600 --> 01:04:59,760 Speaker 1: because she is who she is. But you know, in 1009 01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:04,160 Speaker 1: my I set to be going through abuse. Yeah yeah, 1010 01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:09,760 Speaker 1: and it was well, it was just a very confusing thing, 1011 01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:14,120 Speaker 1: um because I thought, you know, this is my shot 1012 01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:18,120 Speaker 1: to represent the help, but I don't have help here? 1013 01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:26,360 Speaker 1: What's happening? And you know, ironically, because people will ask me, oh, 1014 01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:28,440 Speaker 1: you know, you must just not watch any of that anymore. 1015 01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:31,800 Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I I barely watch shows I'm on 1016 01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:33,720 Speaker 1: because when you're making a show, you don't have time 1017 01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:36,080 Speaker 1: to watch a show because you're always on set. But 1018 01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:40,160 Speaker 1: you know, I think about the fact that, for whatever reason, 1019 01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:43,160 Speaker 1: her show, as it seems to be for you and 1020 01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:45,680 Speaker 1: for rock Sand still feels like such a safe place 1021 01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:47,400 Speaker 1: to me. So if I turned on the TV and 1022 01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:49,720 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's a Sunday and there's an SPU marathon, 1023 01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,160 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm in all day. This is just gonna 1024 01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:54,520 Speaker 1: be on in the house all that I'm gonna do laundry, 1025 01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:57,240 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna, like, you know, give the dog a bath, 1026 01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:58,800 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna do all the things I need to do. 1027 01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:00,520 Speaker 1: And this is just going to be on. And I 1028 01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:05,040 Speaker 1: feel the same way as you. I I do love it. Yeah, 1029 01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:09,280 Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely. It's an interesting thing that that's, you know, 1030 01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:13,400 Speaker 1: a bond that that you and Roxanne have and as 1031 01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:16,360 Speaker 1: I've I've you know, just admitted to you and everyone 1032 01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:19,800 Speaker 1: listening also, Hi, Roxane, I love you that I really 1033 01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:24,640 Speaker 1: love her, and and just so amazed with her writing 1034 01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:27,800 Speaker 1: and her leadership and and I think about the way 1035 01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:29,720 Speaker 1: that you write and you lead. I mean even the 1036 01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:32,840 Speaker 1: way you referenced by the way your conversations with Tim Ferris, 1037 01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:38,480 Speaker 1: the space that you create not just for women like us, 1038 01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:41,160 Speaker 1: and you know, not just for queer women and women 1039 01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:44,160 Speaker 1: of color, but but also men out there in the 1040 01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:49,920 Speaker 1: world who need great community. You both in your own 1041 01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:54,240 Speaker 1: incredibly unique ways, which which also overlaps so beautifully you 1042 01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:58,640 Speaker 1: do this. How how did you two meet? Are you 1043 01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:03,280 Speaker 1: just inspired all the time? What? I don't know. Part 1044 01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:05,880 Speaker 1: of me just thinks about how interesting your breakfast table 1045 01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:10,960 Speaker 1: must be. So I'm just so hey, I'm so happy 1046 01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:14,880 Speaker 1: for you both. Congratulations and and be um. Yeah, I 1047 01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:17,520 Speaker 1: just kind of want to know what you know to 1048 01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:23,400 Speaker 1: powerhouse leaders, authors, creators, living under the same roof is like, well, 1049 01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:27,160 Speaker 1: every day is just she is the most magnificent human 1050 01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:29,800 Speaker 1: to have ever walked the earth, as far as I'm concerned. 1051 01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:37,600 Speaker 1: I pursued her, Sophia, I I like, really really pursued her. 1052 01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:40,680 Speaker 1: I initially wanted her to be on the podcast after 1053 01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:44,800 Speaker 1: I read Hunger Um. Hunger, as you can well imagine, 1054 01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:49,960 Speaker 1: just devastated me, both good and bad, and it was 1055 01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:52,000 Speaker 1: just a one of the most powerful books that I 1056 01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:55,680 Speaker 1: had ever read. But I also felt that she had 1057 01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:58,920 Speaker 1: somehow gotten a peek into my own life somehow and 1058 01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:04,560 Speaker 1: wrote My True for me. And at the time, I 1059 01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:09,240 Speaker 1: was very intentionally single. I was not looking for a relationship. 1060 01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:11,480 Speaker 1: I was trying to break some really bad habits from 1061 01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:15,840 Speaker 1: my past and just just very innocently asked her to 1062 01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:20,120 Speaker 1: be on the podcast. And then she said yes and 1063 01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:22,479 Speaker 1: then no because she was there was a lot of 1064 01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:25,960 Speaker 1: scheduling issues with her PR people and whatnot, so she 1065 01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:27,760 Speaker 1: ended up not being on it, and I just kept 1066 01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:30,559 Speaker 1: writing her, you know. I then I read Bad Feminist 1067 01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:32,080 Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, I love this for you two, 1068 01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:34,680 Speaker 1: and I love scrabble too, and like to seem like 1069 01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:38,760 Speaker 1: there was all these these overlaps, dorky overlaps that led 1070 01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:40,559 Speaker 1: me to believe that we were meant for each other. 1071 01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:45,000 Speaker 1: I really did. I thought we are meant for each other. 1072 01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:51,800 Speaker 1: And then um, finally through the writer Ashley Ford, magnificent 1073 01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:54,800 Speaker 1: writer of a book that came out this year, Nobody's Daughter, 1074 01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:58,240 Speaker 1: which is just Ashley and I were both doing a 1075 01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:01,360 Speaker 1: spoken word event together at a was a design event, 1076 01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:06,639 Speaker 1: and afterward we and the rest of the ensemble went 1077 01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:09,320 Speaker 1: out for some drinks and we ended up going back 1078 01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:11,519 Speaker 1: to my apartment because they were there were so many 1079 01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:13,320 Speaker 1: of us it would have been a wheeldy find a 1080 01:09:13,320 --> 01:09:16,000 Speaker 1: place that we could all sit down, and my my 1081 01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:19,040 Speaker 1: place was around the corner from the venue. And somehow 1082 01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:21,640 Speaker 1: we all started talking and Ashley started talking about her 1083 01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:26,360 Speaker 1: mentor Roxanne, and somehow I just blurted it out. I said, 1084 01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:29,240 Speaker 1: it surprised me too. I said, oh my god, I 1085 01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:32,240 Speaker 1: have such a crush on her. And Ashley looked at 1086 01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:37,360 Speaker 1: me and it was like, really, like, sister, I can 1087 01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:39,960 Speaker 1: hook you up. But I mean, it was all in 1088 01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:41,960 Speaker 1: her face. She didn't say that at all. It was 1089 01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:46,439 Speaker 1: like she gave me an eyebrow and yeah, And I'm like, 1090 01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:49,120 Speaker 1: do you think I have a shot, And She's like, well, 1091 01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:51,920 Speaker 1: there might be a window of opportunity available. I said, 1092 01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:54,240 Speaker 1: would you put in a good word for me? And 1093 01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:56,280 Speaker 1: she said sure, can I And I said, can I 1094 01:09:56,360 --> 01:10:01,080 Speaker 1: use your name? So then I wrote her again and 1095 01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:03,280 Speaker 1: I said that I had just spent an evening with 1096 01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:07,599 Speaker 1: Ashley Ford and I just thought that there might be 1097 01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:09,559 Speaker 1: a chance. So I was wondering if I could take 1098 01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:12,000 Speaker 1: you out on a proper date. That's what I asked her, 1099 01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:17,880 Speaker 1: and she responded shore. Roxanne is a woman of just 1100 01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:20,320 Speaker 1: you know, she's so arid and she's such a good writer. 1101 01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:23,800 Speaker 1: And I got back a Shore, which I just said, okay, 1102 01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:25,519 Speaker 1: you know, I'm just at her own pace, and then 1103 01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:28,800 Speaker 1: I wrote back and took four months to schedule, but 1104 01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:32,240 Speaker 1: we did and then sort of had a great first date, 1105 01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:36,599 Speaker 1: great second date after she canceled, and then re re upped, 1106 01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:39,559 Speaker 1: and then a great third date and we've been together 1107 01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:45,200 Speaker 1: ever since. Oh. I just love that. I also love witnessing. 1108 01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:47,920 Speaker 1: I wish everyone listening could see you in this moment 1109 01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:51,639 Speaker 1: because you're just beaming and you look like a bubbly 1110 01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:56,920 Speaker 1: little girl, that pure joy of a crush. And then 1111 01:10:56,960 --> 01:10:59,479 Speaker 1: they when they last, when you still have a crush 1112 01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:04,639 Speaker 1: on your partner, it's it's so nice. Yeah. Well it's 1113 01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:06,680 Speaker 1: only been three years, so I guess we're still in 1114 01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:12,240 Speaker 1: that honeymoon phase. But I do really feel so lucky. 1115 01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:14,360 Speaker 1: And you know, for anybody that's listening, that's like, oh, 1116 01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:16,400 Speaker 1: when will I find my true love? I didn't meet 1117 01:11:16,439 --> 01:11:20,960 Speaker 1: Roxanne until I was fifty seven, so you know, everything 1118 01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:24,160 Speaker 1: takes a long time. But it's possible, you know, it's 1119 01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:28,639 Speaker 1: really possible. And I never ever ever thought that this 1120 01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:32,080 Speaker 1: would happen for me. Never, never, never. I always had 1121 01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:36,679 Speaker 1: this sense of I always had this fantasy that whoever 1122 01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:41,200 Speaker 1: I was with would find me kind of amusing, sort 1123 01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:45,880 Speaker 1: of funny, and no one else had ever felt for 1124 01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:49,160 Speaker 1: ROXI really genuinely is amused and thinks amused by me 1125 01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:51,320 Speaker 1: and thinks I'm funny and like things that I would 1126 01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:55,120 Speaker 1: have with fights with with other people about she laughs at, 1127 01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:58,800 Speaker 1: or things that she says that we're big friction points. 1128 01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:00,799 Speaker 1: She just wrote a piece I think, I don't remember 1129 01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:03,120 Speaker 1: what magazine it was. I think maybe l She wrote 1130 01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:06,280 Speaker 1: a piece about an ex of hers thinking she was 1131 01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:10,599 Speaker 1: an acquired taste and that wasn't a compliment. And she 1132 01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:13,839 Speaker 1: writes about how, you know, people just have different ways 1133 01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:18,559 Speaker 1: of relating, and the very things that delight and thrills 1134 01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:21,400 Speaker 1: some people are the very things that outrage others, and 1135 01:12:21,439 --> 01:12:24,400 Speaker 1: that sort of across the board of everything in life, 1136 01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:29,439 Speaker 1: the particulars, I think can take time, especially when you 1137 01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:34,320 Speaker 1: are the sort of multi hyphen it of all the 1138 01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:37,679 Speaker 1: things that many of us are, you know, creatives, curious people. 1139 01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:42,280 Speaker 1: You're often out exploring outside of yourself, and when you 1140 01:12:42,400 --> 01:12:45,000 Speaker 1: mix in a little bit of being a version of 1141 01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:49,280 Speaker 1: a survivor, and um, you know, carrying your childhood trauma 1142 01:12:49,320 --> 01:12:52,519 Speaker 1: backpack and all the things that we can have, it 1143 01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:56,200 Speaker 1: can make it really hard to to get still enough 1144 01:12:56,240 --> 01:13:01,679 Speaker 1: to even know what mirrors you well beautifully said, thank you. 1145 01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:04,960 Speaker 1: I think about it with you know, with my fiance, 1146 01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:09,439 Speaker 1: and God, yeah, on no planet did I think this 1147 01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:11,160 Speaker 1: person was going to be my person if I had 1148 01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:15,880 Speaker 1: written on paper who my human is. And and yet 1149 01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:18,800 Speaker 1: you finally do enough of the work and you put 1150 01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:24,160 Speaker 1: the backpack down and you really get still, and you 1151 01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:26,599 Speaker 1: take some time. You know, you and I are the same. 1152 01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:27,960 Speaker 1: I took some time. I was just like, I'm not 1153 01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:29,640 Speaker 1: going to date anymore. I'm just not going to do that. 1154 01:13:30,479 --> 01:13:33,080 Speaker 1: And because I think I needed a lesson in not 1155 01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:41,599 Speaker 1: settling and not ignoring what wasn't mirroring well and and yeah, 1156 01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:45,320 Speaker 1: how funny it's And it's just so fun that the 1157 01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:47,840 Speaker 1: thing I'm recognizing in you, the joy when you speak 1158 01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:51,160 Speaker 1: about your wife, makes me so happy because I I 1159 01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:53,920 Speaker 1: feel that way. I had to work on Saturday, and 1160 01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:57,280 Speaker 1: so I was driving to this set and we had 1161 01:13:57,280 --> 01:13:59,120 Speaker 1: been on the phone talking about something that needed to 1162 01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:00,560 Speaker 1: happen at the house that that he was going to 1163 01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:02,800 Speaker 1: take care of. And I called him back ten minutes later, 1164 01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:05,080 Speaker 1: and he goes, oh, did did you forget something? And 1165 01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:07,559 Speaker 1: I was like, no, I just I really love you, 1166 01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:09,599 Speaker 1: and also I like you so much as a person 1167 01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:15,680 Speaker 1: that's won and I just thought, I just this is 1168 01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:19,760 Speaker 1: so fun. I didn't know it could be this fun. Yeah, yeah, 1169 01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:21,920 Speaker 1: how did you guys meet? Oh my god, So this 1170 01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:25,000 Speaker 1: is the craziest thing we met. It will be ten 1171 01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:28,360 Speaker 1: years ago this New Year's on a big trick with 1172 01:14:28,400 --> 01:14:31,320 Speaker 1: a group of friends in South America. It's just the 1173 01:14:31,360 --> 01:14:36,679 Speaker 1: most random thing. And we just were these like nerdy 1174 01:14:36,760 --> 01:14:39,200 Speaker 1: friends forever. We were never single at the same time. 1175 01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:42,559 Speaker 1: And he's such a good person. He was never one 1176 01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:45,719 Speaker 1: of those like single guys whould be like your boyfriend 1177 01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:48,479 Speaker 1: seems nice or whatever gross thing you know people do 1178 01:14:48,600 --> 01:14:50,840 Speaker 1: when they throw a vibe just to see. He never 1179 01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:56,040 Speaker 1: did that, and that's also not my vibe. Um. And 1180 01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:58,439 Speaker 1: so we, you know, we'd see each other, We knew 1181 01:14:58,439 --> 01:15:03,240 Speaker 1: each other's exes. We would bump into each other weirdly 1182 01:15:03,280 --> 01:15:06,799 Speaker 1: in New York a lot. We were living on opposite 1183 01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:08,240 Speaker 1: sides of town. So if I had to go to, 1184 01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:10,479 Speaker 1: you know, a birthday party on his side of town 1185 01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:13,240 Speaker 1: traffic in l A. Is obviously a nightmare. So we'd 1186 01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:15,120 Speaker 1: meet up for a coffee and sit around for two 1187 01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:18,720 Speaker 1: hours and talk about technology and what was happening in politics, 1188 01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:20,240 Speaker 1: and then I'd be like, all right, I'll see you later, 1189 01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:23,280 Speaker 1: great to see you, whatever, and and it's just so 1190 01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:26,160 Speaker 1: it's so funny. The thing that, the thing that reconnected 1191 01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:31,160 Speaker 1: us right at the start of the pandemic, before we 1192 01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:35,800 Speaker 1: even knew it was a pandemic, was working with a 1193 01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:40,280 Speaker 1: huge group of people trying to get um supply chains 1194 01:15:40,320 --> 01:15:44,400 Speaker 1: opened from the Midwest to get warehouses of Ppe to 1195 01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:49,800 Speaker 1: New York and and it was like jumping into this 1196 01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:54,040 Speaker 1: moment of you know, public health advocacy and activism. We 1197 01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:55,880 Speaker 1: were like, oh my god, this is the longest I've 1198 01:15:55,880 --> 01:15:57,599 Speaker 1: ever gone without seeing it was a bit like two 1199 01:15:57,680 --> 01:16:00,120 Speaker 1: years what you up to and it it kind of 1200 01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:06,680 Speaker 1: um yeah, just changed all of it. Wow, it's so romantic, 1201 01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:11,320 Speaker 1: it's so fun it's congratulations. Thank you, I mean gosh, 1202 01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:14,759 Speaker 1: congratulations to the two of you. I like, I said, 1203 01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:18,360 Speaker 1: the breakfast table conversation and the bookshelves in your apartment 1204 01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:22,519 Speaker 1: I imagine are so good and I have to say 1205 01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:29,479 Speaker 1: thank you for this addition to my bookshelf. This is incredible. 1206 01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:31,960 Speaker 1: Thank you able to send you a book plate so 1207 01:16:32,040 --> 01:16:33,960 Speaker 1: you could have it, send you a little message for 1208 01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:37,479 Speaker 1: it's so fabulous. Everybody at home. I realized, I'm saying, 1209 01:16:37,520 --> 01:16:39,719 Speaker 1: this is amazing, and you can't see us. We're seeing 1210 01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:42,120 Speaker 1: each other. We're having like a we're having a friend giggle. 1211 01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:47,519 Speaker 1: But um, I'm holding Debbie's new book and it's called 1212 01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:51,960 Speaker 1: Wide Design Matters and it's conversations with the world's most 1213 01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:55,640 Speaker 1: creative people. It's gorgeous. It's I would say, what is 1214 01:16:55,640 --> 01:16:58,160 Speaker 1: this measure ten by ten? It's ten by ten and 1215 01:16:58,160 --> 01:17:02,639 Speaker 1: it's five pounds. It is heavy, it's delicious, and it's 1216 01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:07,639 Speaker 1: this incredible collection of you know, as you said earlier, 1217 01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:11,760 Speaker 1: some of the most fascinating and impactful conversations you've had 1218 01:17:11,800 --> 01:17:15,320 Speaker 1: on the podcast you've you've given to us in this. 1219 01:17:16,160 --> 01:17:19,400 Speaker 1: I mean not that anyone is surprised the most beautifully 1220 01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:24,000 Speaker 1: designed coffee table book, but but as you said earlier, 1221 01:17:24,080 --> 01:17:29,880 Speaker 1: it it really does Trojan Horse empathy and thoughtfulness and 1222 01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:35,880 Speaker 1: uh permission and a deep honesty inside of a design book. Oh, 1223 01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:39,000 Speaker 1: thank you so much. I'm curious. You know you've written 1224 01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:43,000 Speaker 1: a bunch of books. So as you look at your 1225 01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:46,759 Speaker 1: writing life, what do you think sets this book apart? 1226 01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:49,280 Speaker 1: And why did you decide you wanted to write this one? Well, 1227 01:17:49,320 --> 01:17:51,760 Speaker 1: in many ways, I didn't really decide I wanted to 1228 01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:56,360 Speaker 1: write it. I had completed a book with three dear friends, 1229 01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:59,799 Speaker 1: Maria Popovo, Wendy McNaughton, and Sarah Rich. We all worked 1230 01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:04,160 Speaker 1: on creating a book about the twentie century. One of 1231 01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:07,599 Speaker 1: the one of the great female designers of the twentieth century, 1232 01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:10,000 Speaker 1: really unsung. We wanted that to be changed. Her name 1233 01:18:10,040 --> 01:18:12,840 Speaker 1: is c. P. Panellis, and we wrote a book to 1234 01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:15,760 Speaker 1: We all put to work together on a book that 1235 01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:20,479 Speaker 1: Sarah edited about CPS life and she she was a cook, 1236 01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:23,639 Speaker 1: and its recipes and it's it's quite an unusual book. 1237 01:18:24,120 --> 01:18:27,519 Speaker 1: And through that experience I met Charlotte Cheaty, who was 1238 01:18:27,560 --> 01:18:33,160 Speaker 1: our agent for the book through Wendy McNaughton, and Charlotte said, 1239 01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:36,720 Speaker 1: why haven't you done a book about your show? And 1240 01:18:36,760 --> 01:18:38,880 Speaker 1: I said, well, because I once told a friend of 1241 01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:42,120 Speaker 1: mine who I really respected, the idea about possibly doing it, 1242 01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:44,080 Speaker 1: and he thought it was a terrible idea. And he's 1243 01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:45,920 Speaker 1: a really good friend and he meant it at the time. 1244 01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:47,680 Speaker 1: It was, you know, back when the show was like 1245 01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:50,759 Speaker 1: three years old and everything was for free on the internet, 1246 01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:52,600 Speaker 1: so he just thought like, why would people pay for 1247 01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:55,040 Speaker 1: something like that? And I'm glad he said that because 1248 01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:57,000 Speaker 1: at that time it would have been the really wrong 1249 01:18:57,080 --> 01:19:00,040 Speaker 1: book to make. And Charlotte thought it would be a 1250 01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:02,519 Speaker 1: idea and she put out some feelers and hardware. Collins 1251 01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:03,920 Speaker 1: was really interested, and then all of a sudden I 1252 01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:07,879 Speaker 1: had to make a book and it was somewhat daunting. 1253 01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:10,400 Speaker 1: It also happened just at the time I met Roxanne, 1254 01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:17,040 Speaker 1: and it was like book schmuck, I even love. So 1255 01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:19,400 Speaker 1: then I had to get a year a year extension 1256 01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:22,320 Speaker 1: of my deadline. Nobody was happy about that except Roxanne. 1257 01:19:24,200 --> 01:19:26,679 Speaker 1: But then I ended up doing this during during mostly 1258 01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:31,320 Speaker 1: during COVID, so that's that It was an accidental book 1259 01:19:31,360 --> 01:19:33,639 Speaker 1: in many ways, but I feel that it's a good 1260 01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:37,280 Speaker 1: moment in time to sort of be a monograph of 1261 01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:40,920 Speaker 1: the show, of some of the those best moments. It 1262 01:19:41,200 --> 01:19:44,439 Speaker 1: was very hard to edit because I had a limited 1263 01:19:44,479 --> 01:19:47,000 Speaker 1: amount of space and a lot of people that I 1264 01:19:47,040 --> 01:19:50,240 Speaker 1: wanted to include. So I know it's a dense book. 1265 01:19:50,240 --> 01:19:52,680 Speaker 1: It's a hundred and fifty thousand words later or not. 1266 01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:57,240 Speaker 1: If that's why it's wipe bounce. I love it and 1267 01:19:57,280 --> 01:20:00,120 Speaker 1: I love that the you know, the conversations it it 1268 01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:02,760 Speaker 1: almost feels like a collection of essays. So it's the 1269 01:20:02,880 --> 01:20:05,240 Speaker 1: kind of book you can do a little bit at 1270 01:20:05,240 --> 01:20:08,400 Speaker 1: a time. I'm glad that you said that, because that's 1271 01:20:08,439 --> 01:20:10,840 Speaker 1: also why we designed it in the way that we did. 1272 01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:13,439 Speaker 1: Alex Kellman, who is t Work Hellman's son, you know, 1273 01:20:13,479 --> 01:20:16,640 Speaker 1: one of my early heroes, So there's that phenomenal symmetry 1274 01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:20,160 Speaker 1: to this story. Um. Alex Hellman designed the book for me, 1275 01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:23,640 Speaker 1: and initially I was a little bit surprised at his approach, 1276 01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:26,120 Speaker 1: to his use of typography and the and the variety 1277 01:20:26,200 --> 01:20:29,040 Speaker 1: that he was using and the way he was using 1278 01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:32,920 Speaker 1: that range of faces. But I think it makes a 1279 01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:34,960 Speaker 1: lot of sense because it gives you permission to put 1280 01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:38,000 Speaker 1: it down because suddenly there's a pause and and it's 1281 01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:40,720 Speaker 1: sort of like a different like a different scene in 1282 01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:43,880 Speaker 1: a play, and you can have a natural pause to 1283 01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:46,360 Speaker 1: stop and then we pick it up. So I think 1284 01:20:46,439 --> 01:20:48,559 Speaker 1: he was really really smart in the way that he 1285 01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:52,880 Speaker 1: did that. Yes, yeah, it's almost like you know a 1286 01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:57,240 Speaker 1: TV series, you do it an episode at a time, right, exactly. 1287 01:20:57,400 --> 01:21:02,880 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Thank you. That's really profound, really well, 1288 01:21:03,080 --> 01:21:06,200 Speaker 1: I'm clearly a major fan, not only of you, but 1289 01:21:06,280 --> 01:21:10,479 Speaker 1: of this book. I think it's so beautiful, even you know, 1290 01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:15,519 Speaker 1: since it's arrived here at my house, the the moments 1291 01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:18,960 Speaker 1: I find myself sitting with it, whether it's you know, 1292 01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:21,519 Speaker 1: the day it came and I read there for forty 1293 01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:24,960 Speaker 1: five minutes, or you know, yesterday morning, I was like, 1294 01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:26,720 Speaker 1: I'm going to skip ahead. I want to read the 1295 01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:29,519 Speaker 1: esther Perel Conversation. And I just read that, and you know, 1296 01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:31,200 Speaker 1: I took a few minutes in the morning and it 1297 01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:36,720 Speaker 1: was a really um just inspiring, a little moment as 1298 01:21:36,760 --> 01:21:40,840 Speaker 1: there is, you know, an icon to me, and I 1299 01:21:40,880 --> 01:21:43,680 Speaker 1: pinched myself also a friend, and so I thought, I 1300 01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:48,479 Speaker 1: wonder what they talked about. She is, you know, she 1301 01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:53,000 Speaker 1: she can talk about anything, anything, and every conversation I 1302 01:21:53,040 --> 01:21:56,559 Speaker 1: have with her, I come away from it thinking what 1303 01:21:56,760 --> 01:22:03,719 Speaker 1: a freaking queen she is. And a vocabulary, Oh god, 1304 01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:09,000 Speaker 1: it's so gorgeous. I I wonder when you think about 1305 01:22:10,280 --> 01:22:13,960 Speaker 1: all of these capabilities of design, you know, to be 1306 01:22:14,040 --> 01:22:20,160 Speaker 1: a trojan horse for conversations like this, to enrich our lives, 1307 01:22:20,560 --> 01:22:22,120 Speaker 1: you know, to give us people to look up to, 1308 01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:24,479 Speaker 1: and also sometimes to be a real pain in the ass. 1309 01:22:24,960 --> 01:22:26,880 Speaker 1: This is actually, I think my moment to pitch that 1310 01:22:27,080 --> 01:22:29,200 Speaker 1: I would really love to talk to you about redesigning 1311 01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:33,599 Speaker 1: email because I think there is no uglier interface. There 1312 01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:37,519 Speaker 1: is nothing that makes me more stressed out. I if 1313 01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:41,240 Speaker 1: email was a thing you were required to participate in, 1314 01:22:42,080 --> 01:22:45,240 Speaker 1: like say, paying your taxes, I would be in jail. 1315 01:22:45,400 --> 01:22:48,760 Speaker 1: I can't do it. So I'm just gonna go ahead 1316 01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:51,679 Speaker 1: and say, for anyone else who thinks inboxes are hideous, Um, 1317 01:22:52,160 --> 01:22:56,519 Speaker 1: maybe we can discuss something. I think it is the 1318 01:22:56,560 --> 01:22:59,240 Speaker 1: ban of bin of my existence. I think it's time, 1319 01:22:59,360 --> 01:23:01,839 Speaker 1: you know, when we talk about these moments of cultural evolution, 1320 01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:06,120 Speaker 1: I think we deserve an upgrade email. I agree, um, 1321 01:23:06,160 --> 01:23:10,000 Speaker 1: And I guess I offer that as my example because 1322 01:23:10,360 --> 01:23:14,160 Speaker 1: it genuinely makes my skin crawl, and because you are 1323 01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:17,320 Speaker 1: the expert in this arena. And I think about the 1324 01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:21,840 Speaker 1: fact that design is always changing and evolving, and that 1325 01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:25,280 Speaker 1: may be what I would like to evolve. But I wonder, 1326 01:23:25,520 --> 01:23:28,639 Speaker 1: I wonder where you actually think on the larger scale 1327 01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:35,080 Speaker 1: of design and the way it's constantly reshaping itself. Where 1328 01:23:35,120 --> 01:23:37,559 Speaker 1: where do you think it's heading, is there something that 1329 01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:40,080 Speaker 1: you see coming in the next five years or ten 1330 01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:44,280 Speaker 1: that you're really excited about. Well, I think everything is cyclical, 1331 01:23:45,320 --> 01:23:48,200 Speaker 1: and you know, a hundred and sixty years ago, the 1332 01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:51,759 Speaker 1: first registered trademark um was bass Ale of all things. 1333 01:23:51,800 --> 01:23:55,240 Speaker 1: I think super interesting to to really ponder what that 1334 01:23:55,280 --> 01:23:59,200 Speaker 1: means about our humanity that the first trademark registration mark 1335 01:23:59,360 --> 01:24:03,360 Speaker 1: was a galic beverage. But you know, you think back 1336 01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:08,160 Speaker 1: to that time, people were very willing to pay a 1337 01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:14,839 Speaker 1: premium for something in a box or a rapper or 1338 01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:23,439 Speaker 1: a can, and the mass manufacturing of products at that 1339 01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:26,720 Speaker 1: time signified that they were safe, which is something we 1340 01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:30,720 Speaker 1: really take for granted. Now. They were consistent, another thing 1341 01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:35,679 Speaker 1: we take for granted, and that they wouldn't kill you. 1342 01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:41,040 Speaker 1: It really wasn't until the Food and Drug Administration made 1343 01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:44,439 Speaker 1: it illegal to for any manufacturer to make something that 1344 01:24:44,520 --> 01:24:47,160 Speaker 1: harmed someone. You know, we didn't have, you know, humans, 1345 01:24:47,160 --> 01:24:52,080 Speaker 1: consumers didn't really have rights to safety before that. But 1346 01:24:52,160 --> 01:24:54,600 Speaker 1: at the time, people were willing to pay a premium 1347 01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:59,960 Speaker 1: for these manufactured, mass produced goods because they were a novel. Too. 1348 01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:03,040 Speaker 1: Hundred and sixty years later, we're willing to pay a 1349 01:25:03,080 --> 01:25:06,559 Speaker 1: premium for the opposite, you know, for the things that 1350 01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:10,920 Speaker 1: are grown, and we measure the distance from farm to 1351 01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:14,240 Speaker 1: table and we're we're willing to pay a premium for that. 1352 01:25:14,400 --> 01:25:16,840 Speaker 1: So I think this sort of an interesting cycle that's 1353 01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:24,400 Speaker 1: occurring now with smaller, bespoke, customized, fresher cleaner brands. I 1354 01:25:24,439 --> 01:25:29,840 Speaker 1: also think that people are entirely over the idea of 1355 01:25:31,120 --> 01:25:36,759 Speaker 1: having a different flavor or a different form of a brand. 1356 01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:40,360 Speaker 1: They're much more interested in how that brand is going 1357 01:25:40,400 --> 01:25:43,559 Speaker 1: to make a difference in their lives. And then, more 1358 01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:47,719 Speaker 1: than anything, I think that a good number of people 1359 01:25:47,960 --> 01:25:52,320 Speaker 1: are holding corporations to accountable for their beliefs and their politics. 1360 01:25:52,760 --> 01:25:56,160 Speaker 1: And that's also a brand new thing. I think people 1361 01:25:56,160 --> 01:26:00,760 Speaker 1: are finally understanding that their consensus, getting back to that 1362 01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:05,600 Speaker 1: word about the beliefs that they have, the consumers that 1363 01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:09,160 Speaker 1: believe certain things that if the companies that they're buying 1364 01:26:09,160 --> 01:26:11,200 Speaker 1: products from don't believe in those things, and they're not 1365 01:26:11,240 --> 01:26:15,280 Speaker 1: going to buy them. I thought it was incredibly, incredibly 1366 01:26:15,320 --> 01:26:21,920 Speaker 1: important to the to Wall Street that Nike's share price 1367 01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:27,360 Speaker 1: actually went up after they signed Colin Kaepernac to their roster. 1368 01:26:27,520 --> 01:26:30,840 Speaker 1: Whereas you know, initially the trolls out there were burning 1369 01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:32,760 Speaker 1: their sneakers, and you know, it was kind of like, 1370 01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:34,559 Speaker 1: you know, you're just cutting off your nose. That's about 1371 01:26:34,600 --> 01:26:37,040 Speaker 1: your face, right, You're destroying your own sneakers. You're not 1372 01:26:37,160 --> 01:26:40,559 Speaker 1: doing any harm to anybody else but yourself, but whatever, 1373 01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:45,000 Speaker 1: And and everybody was very worried that this this relationship 1374 01:26:45,120 --> 01:26:47,760 Speaker 1: might tarnish the brand. Well, in fact, it was the opposite. 1375 01:26:48,439 --> 01:26:51,800 Speaker 1: And and the share Nike shares, they were rewarded by 1376 01:26:51,840 --> 01:26:56,719 Speaker 1: that relationship. And now I think that even beyond that, 1377 01:26:57,680 --> 01:27:01,600 Speaker 1: the power that people have via the use of technology, 1378 01:27:02,320 --> 01:27:05,840 Speaker 1: black lives matter me too. Their their brands in a 1379 01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:10,040 Speaker 1: lot of ways. They they have all the tenants of branding, 1380 01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:15,519 Speaker 1: and yet they are not selling anything other than a 1381 01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:19,400 Speaker 1: shared belief in the way the world should operate. And 1382 01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:23,280 Speaker 1: so branding, the discipline of branding, the discipline of design, 1383 01:27:23,320 --> 01:27:26,840 Speaker 1: in many ways, has become democratized. And the more people 1384 01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:31,040 Speaker 1: realize that, the more power will have to redesign the 1385 01:27:31,040 --> 01:27:32,920 Speaker 1: world and the way we want to make it. And 1386 01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:38,360 Speaker 1: that's very exciting to me. M hmm, that's beautiful. The 1387 01:27:38,400 --> 01:27:43,720 Speaker 1: fact that brand's beliefs, a company's politics matter to us 1388 01:27:43,720 --> 01:27:48,240 Speaker 1: as consumers is on the one hand, perhaps overdue, and 1389 01:27:48,320 --> 01:27:50,920 Speaker 1: on the other hand, feels like a real you know 1390 01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:57,960 Speaker 1: horizon event. Yes culture, yes, at that sort of precipice 1391 01:27:58,040 --> 01:28:02,000 Speaker 1: are their common you know, symbols or graphics or messages 1392 01:28:02,240 --> 01:28:06,400 Speaker 1: in our culture that you actually hope will change or 1393 01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:11,040 Speaker 1: or perhaps disappear as we as we take this next leap. Well, 1394 01:28:11,080 --> 01:28:14,559 Speaker 1: I think income equality is super important. I think that 1395 01:28:15,560 --> 01:28:19,000 Speaker 1: the same job should be the same pay, regardless of 1396 01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:23,719 Speaker 1: a person's gender. I think that any company that's using 1397 01:28:23,720 --> 01:28:28,240 Speaker 1: the word authentic should probably rethink that word. I think 1398 01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:30,439 Speaker 1: anybody as soon as you have to label it, it 1399 01:28:30,479 --> 01:28:35,960 Speaker 1: becomes an authentic. Actions can be authentic, but statements generally 1400 01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:41,120 Speaker 1: aren't unless they're provable. And intentions might be sincere, but 1401 01:28:41,400 --> 01:28:46,879 Speaker 1: until they're held accountable to those intentions and those goals, 1402 01:28:47,040 --> 01:28:51,400 Speaker 1: then you can't really convince people with hope and a dream. 1403 01:28:51,439 --> 01:28:54,360 Speaker 1: You have to show people that you are willing to 1404 01:28:54,479 --> 01:28:58,040 Speaker 1: make the risks and the sacrifices necessary in order to 1405 01:28:58,080 --> 01:29:00,680 Speaker 1: bring about change, because not everybody is going to be 1406 01:29:00,720 --> 01:29:03,679 Speaker 1: happy with a political belief and it's highly, highly risky 1407 01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:06,679 Speaker 1: to do that. You can't opinion poll I have a dream. 1408 01:29:06,880 --> 01:29:11,599 Speaker 1: You just can't. And and companies try to but I 1409 01:29:11,640 --> 01:29:16,599 Speaker 1: think that whenever a company is thinking about doing something, 1410 01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:20,360 Speaker 1: just by the share virtue of being a corporation, they 1411 01:29:20,360 --> 01:29:24,000 Speaker 1: have a fiduiciary responsibility to their shareholders. So in it 1412 01:29:24,120 --> 01:29:27,360 Speaker 1: as much as there's this framework that has to be maintained, 1413 01:29:27,960 --> 01:29:30,479 Speaker 1: it's very hard for corporations to do something that is 1414 01:29:30,600 --> 01:29:35,080 Speaker 1: risky or experimental that could potentially harm the shareholders. So 1415 01:29:35,120 --> 01:29:38,240 Speaker 1: I think that that whole way in which especially now 1416 01:29:38,320 --> 01:29:42,120 Speaker 1: with the way that with the Trump mandate that allowed 1417 01:29:42,160 --> 01:29:48,479 Speaker 1: corporations to donate to politicians with with no limits, you know, 1418 01:29:48,600 --> 01:29:51,080 Speaker 1: then you really do begin to see that the capitalist 1419 01:29:51,080 --> 01:29:53,880 Speaker 1: system is indeed rigged. You know, that wasn't the intention 1420 01:29:54,400 --> 01:29:57,240 Speaker 1: and the intention of capitalism was the best possible product 1421 01:29:57,240 --> 01:30:00,240 Speaker 1: at the best possible price for the consumer. That's the 1422 01:30:00,280 --> 01:30:03,360 Speaker 1: case anymore. Now. It's how much money can we donate 1423 01:30:03,400 --> 01:30:08,240 Speaker 1: to this political campaign to make sure that our infrastructure 1424 01:30:08,640 --> 01:30:13,439 Speaker 1: can can be done without any barriers or obstacles. That's 1425 01:30:13,439 --> 01:30:18,280 Speaker 1: not that's not capitalism. So I think that whenever a 1426 01:30:18,320 --> 01:30:22,280 Speaker 1: company is trying to think about what it is that 1427 01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:25,959 Speaker 1: they need to do, they have to take into account 1428 01:30:26,040 --> 01:30:28,400 Speaker 1: what impact they're going to have on the planet and 1429 01:30:28,439 --> 01:30:31,719 Speaker 1: their audience. As well as the shareholders. And that's something 1430 01:30:31,760 --> 01:30:34,519 Speaker 1: that it's going to take a long time for that 1431 01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:38,320 Speaker 1: to happen that I'm not as optimistic about, which is 1432 01:30:38,320 --> 01:30:40,559 Speaker 1: why I think people just have to keep pushing for 1433 01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:46,320 Speaker 1: their perspective to be heard and met, and it makes 1434 01:30:46,360 --> 01:30:49,920 Speaker 1: it incredibly meaningful, and I think teaches us why it's 1435 01:30:49,960 --> 01:30:54,080 Speaker 1: so important to always show up for our elections local, yes, 1436 01:30:54,479 --> 01:30:59,080 Speaker 1: you know, state, national, because the only way we change 1437 01:30:59,120 --> 01:31:03,120 Speaker 1: a system like that is by voting in people who 1438 01:31:03,720 --> 01:31:06,040 Speaker 1: are trying to prioritize the rights of the people over 1439 01:31:06,080 --> 01:31:10,599 Speaker 1: the rights of corporations. Yes, you know, it's what got 1440 01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:16,360 Speaker 1: us after you know, I am a voter. We we 1441 01:31:16,479 --> 01:31:21,720 Speaker 1: launched this little design project as a plan for the 1442 01:31:21,760 --> 01:31:25,200 Speaker 1: mid terms. We just wanted to activate more voters and 1443 01:31:25,200 --> 01:31:27,720 Speaker 1: get more people registered for the mid terms to to 1444 01:31:27,800 --> 01:31:33,680 Speaker 1: help push back the you know, tied of on encumbered 1445 01:31:34,479 --> 01:31:38,960 Speaker 1: you know, billionaire grade that Trump unleashed and and it 1446 01:31:39,000 --> 01:31:41,479 Speaker 1: became a movement that you know, well will never stop. 1447 01:31:41,520 --> 01:31:46,519 Speaker 1: It went well past but I mean this, we got 1448 01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:50,080 Speaker 1: just out of girlfriends of mine, some of the best 1449 01:31:50,880 --> 01:31:54,840 Speaker 1: branding minds, and these group of women sat around and said, 1450 01:31:54,880 --> 01:31:58,160 Speaker 1: if we can all sell you know, eighty million dollars 1451 01:31:58,200 --> 01:32:01,200 Speaker 1: worth of mascara for a company hired us. Why can't 1452 01:32:01,240 --> 01:32:07,960 Speaker 1: we Why can't we apply the same ideas to voting? Absolutely, absolutely, 1453 01:32:07,960 --> 01:32:11,960 Speaker 1: and and kudos to you because it is super successful 1454 01:32:11,960 --> 01:32:14,960 Speaker 1: and shows that these things do count and do matter. 1455 01:32:15,400 --> 01:32:16,920 Speaker 1: You know, the one thing I can say to that 1456 01:32:17,080 --> 01:32:20,000 Speaker 1: is just that there's for you know, every person has 1457 01:32:20,040 --> 01:32:23,519 Speaker 1: a vote, every person can make a difference. One of 1458 01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:28,200 Speaker 1: the biggest obstacles two systemic change is people believing that 1459 01:32:28,280 --> 01:32:31,960 Speaker 1: they have an impact as an individual. And you know, 1460 01:32:32,040 --> 01:32:36,640 Speaker 1: people all say that they are in supportive recycling and 1461 01:32:36,680 --> 01:32:39,759 Speaker 1: they want to save the planet, but when it comes 1462 01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:44,200 Speaker 1: to for example, something is silly and com modified as 1463 01:32:44,240 --> 01:32:48,040 Speaker 1: buying toilet paper, you know, they don't want to buy 1464 01:32:48,320 --> 01:32:52,040 Speaker 1: recycled paper, unbleached paper because of the way that we're socialized. 1465 01:32:52,760 --> 01:32:58,200 Speaker 1: If everybody just made that one minor change, it would 1466 01:32:58,200 --> 01:33:03,640 Speaker 1: save so much waste and it would make a huge difference. 1467 01:33:04,439 --> 01:33:09,599 Speaker 1: Um So, in that case, corporations are not making are 1468 01:33:09,640 --> 01:33:14,400 Speaker 1: not keeping products on the shelves for altruistic reasons. They're 1469 01:33:14,439 --> 01:33:17,040 Speaker 1: only keeping products on the shelves that people buy. There's 1470 01:33:17,120 --> 01:33:20,840 Speaker 1: no corporation in the history of corporations that's like this. 1471 01:33:21,160 --> 01:33:22,920 Speaker 1: We have real heart for this. We're just going to 1472 01:33:23,080 --> 01:33:26,200 Speaker 1: keep it there because we love it. Joke that someone 1473 01:33:26,200 --> 01:33:31,160 Speaker 1: out there likes peach flavored diet powdered iced tea. Because 1474 01:33:31,160 --> 01:33:34,000 Speaker 1: it's still on the market. People are still buying it, 1475 01:33:34,600 --> 01:33:38,879 Speaker 1: and so we The way in which one vote matters 1476 01:33:39,680 --> 01:33:42,599 Speaker 1: is the same way that one purchase matters. And if 1477 01:33:42,640 --> 01:33:45,000 Speaker 1: we if you know, people think, oh, what difference does 1478 01:33:45,000 --> 01:33:48,320 Speaker 1: it make a by by the bleached white toilet paper. 1479 01:33:48,760 --> 01:33:53,880 Speaker 1: It does, because every purchase makes a difference. Yeah, okay, 1480 01:33:54,040 --> 01:33:57,160 Speaker 1: So we have civic engagement to work on. Toilet paper 1481 01:33:57,160 --> 01:34:00,559 Speaker 1: needs a new campaign, and we have to redesign email Debbie. 1482 01:34:00,960 --> 01:34:03,920 Speaker 1: We have things to do. This is a productive call. 1483 01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:09,360 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I love it. I'm curious, you know, 1484 01:34:10,680 --> 01:34:14,360 Speaker 1: because you just birthed this new book into the world. 1485 01:34:14,560 --> 01:34:16,719 Speaker 1: You know, I imagine this took a lot of work. 1486 01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:21,600 Speaker 1: And I know you're always thinking about things and projects 1487 01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:25,680 Speaker 1: and and that you can't help but see potential in 1488 01:34:25,760 --> 01:34:28,960 Speaker 1: everything you look at in the world. So I wonder 1489 01:34:29,920 --> 01:34:32,679 Speaker 1: rest might be the answer, which would be well deserved 1490 01:34:32,720 --> 01:34:35,200 Speaker 1: after publishing a book of this size. But I have 1491 01:34:35,240 --> 01:34:38,599 Speaker 1: a hunch there's other ideas too. I wonder what feels 1492 01:34:38,680 --> 01:34:43,160 Speaker 1: like your current or perhaps your next work in progress 1493 01:34:43,520 --> 01:34:48,959 Speaker 1: in your life. Oh, I love that question. Um well, Sophia, 1494 01:34:49,000 --> 01:34:51,799 Speaker 1: this is a fun answer. One of the things that 1495 01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:56,360 Speaker 1: I didn't do so much when I was working full 1496 01:34:56,400 --> 01:35:01,679 Speaker 1: time as a corporate executive was traveling. And I did 1497 01:35:01,760 --> 01:35:04,200 Speaker 1: so much business travel that the idea of being on 1498 01:35:04,240 --> 01:35:06,960 Speaker 1: a vacation and going to get another airport and going 1499 01:35:06,960 --> 01:35:11,160 Speaker 1: through another security line just was something I could not bear. 1500 01:35:11,880 --> 01:35:16,000 Speaker 1: And then when I began to change the way I lived, 1501 01:35:16,040 --> 01:35:19,720 Speaker 1: I started to feel like maybe I wanted to try 1502 01:35:19,720 --> 01:35:21,960 Speaker 1: to see as much of the planet as possible before 1503 01:35:22,000 --> 01:35:27,759 Speaker 1: I died, and so in I went on a National 1504 01:35:27,800 --> 01:35:32,240 Speaker 1: Geographic expedition around the world, which was an amazing, amazing thing. 1505 01:35:33,280 --> 01:35:37,120 Speaker 1: And so Roxanne and I are we both love traveling, 1506 01:35:37,200 --> 01:35:43,000 Speaker 1: and so we're going We've decided to go to Antarctica 1507 01:35:43,240 --> 01:35:47,280 Speaker 1: in December, and we're going to go see the total 1508 01:35:47,439 --> 01:35:52,680 Speaker 1: solar eclipse of the Sun um Antarctica in December. So 1509 01:35:52,840 --> 01:35:55,000 Speaker 1: our work in progress is trying to see as much 1510 01:35:55,040 --> 01:35:59,800 Speaker 1: of the planet as possible together. I am so excited 1511 01:35:59,840 --> 01:36:02,880 Speaker 1: for you. I am so excited for you, And this 1512 01:36:02,960 --> 01:36:07,000 Speaker 1: is wild. One of my best friends went on an 1513 01:36:07,040 --> 01:36:10,360 Speaker 1: expedition trip to Antarctica three years ago. I have to 1514 01:36:10,400 --> 01:36:14,479 Speaker 1: connect to the two of you. Yes, she's her. Her 1515 01:36:14,520 --> 01:36:18,280 Speaker 1: trip was so incredible. I've I've gone over her photos 1516 01:36:18,280 --> 01:36:20,599 Speaker 1: of a fine toothcome. I'm dying to go. I can't 1517 01:36:20,680 --> 01:36:24,320 Speaker 1: wait to hear how you're Oh this is I'm we're 1518 01:36:24,400 --> 01:36:26,880 Speaker 1: so excited. I mean, I I decided I wanted to 1519 01:36:26,920 --> 01:36:29,800 Speaker 1: do this years ago for my sixtieth birthday, and now 1520 01:36:29,800 --> 01:36:32,599 Speaker 1: that I'm getting to do it with Roxanne, it's very 1521 01:36:32,680 --> 01:36:36,920 Speaker 1: much a work in progress. I can't wait. I can't 1522 01:36:36,960 --> 01:36:39,080 Speaker 1: wait to see. This is where I think the Internet 1523 01:36:39,120 --> 01:36:41,320 Speaker 1: is great because I think I can't wait to see 1524 01:36:41,760 --> 01:36:46,719 Speaker 1: when you guys start sharing photos to Instagram of this trip. I'm, oh, 1525 01:36:46,880 --> 01:36:50,120 Speaker 1: my god, this is amazing. Super excited. I'm really I mean, 1526 01:36:50,120 --> 01:36:52,920 Speaker 1: I'm nervous. I'm really nervous. I was nervous, really nervous 1527 01:36:52,960 --> 01:36:56,120 Speaker 1: before the expedition when I when I went in, it 1528 01:36:56,120 --> 01:36:59,920 Speaker 1: was into and I went to eleven countries. It was 1529 01:37:00,080 --> 01:37:03,160 Speaker 1: hardest thing I ever did, and I cried a lot. 1530 01:37:03,240 --> 01:37:05,639 Speaker 1: But I also rule a lot and learned a lot, 1531 01:37:05,800 --> 01:37:07,799 Speaker 1: and I have a feeling it's going to be very similar. 1532 01:37:08,360 --> 01:37:13,479 Speaker 1: I'm so excited for you. Thank you, congrats. Wow, that's 1533 01:37:13,479 --> 01:37:18,040 Speaker 1: a good one. I'm I'm going to put I'm recommitting 1534 01:37:18,040 --> 01:37:21,960 Speaker 1: to that being on my list. Also, how fun. Well, 1535 01:37:22,040 --> 01:37:25,880 Speaker 1: definitely report back and definitely definitely I would love it.