1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A mom seemingly goes overboard 2 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: on a pleasure cruise. What really happened? I'm Nancy Grace. 3 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us 4 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Serious seven one eleven. First 5 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to our friends at WPTZ. 6 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: Around eleven thirty Tuesday morning, Maynall was getting ready for 7 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: work and her daughter Alyssa, had stopped over for a visit. 8 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: All of a sudden, you heard people get out and 9 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 1: they were shouting. That's when they saw multiple vehicles pull 10 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: into this home on Fort Bridgeman Road in Vernon. They 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: snapped this photo. I saw a record here, a ramp truck, 12 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: and then there was a sheriff's card here, and then 13 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: there was summoned in the boat. All the activity happening 14 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: at the home of Nathan Carman, who's usually quiet at 15 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: this house, very very quiet neighborhood, beautiful homes, and this 16 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: family is essentially rolling in money. It's very rare. Have 17 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: you ever noticed it? Robert Crispin, Private investigator Crispin Special Investigations. Robert, 18 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: have you noticed the more money in the neighborhood, the 19 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: less you see the cop cars exactly, exactly. None. You're 20 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: the investigator, and I was expecting a little more from 21 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: you than exactly. You're basically like what she just said. No, 22 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: I think crime is just as ubiquitous in wealthy neighborhoods, 23 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: but somehow they've managed to keep it quiet. Exactly, you 24 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: did it again, Crispin. Why are you on the at all? 25 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: Tell me something, Tell me something I don't know. I'll 26 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: tell you warrant Nancy. The reason you don't see a 27 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: bunch of police activity in all these expensive neighborhoods because 28 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: these people take care of their own problems internally. They 29 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: have their own a lot of people have their own security, 30 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: internal forces, there own protection, and they address all these 31 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: internal family issues or any issues with anybody internally, so 32 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: it doesn't get out to the public. That's normally why 33 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: you don't see a lot of stuff. But when it 34 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: goes down, it goes down big. Yeah. I want to 35 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: go to Andrew Norris. His specialty mirrortime law. He knows 36 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: his way around the courtroom. Andrew Norris joining me out 37 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: of Rhode Island. Andrew, if you go to a regular 38 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: criminal arrayment calendar, felony court, very rarely do you see 39 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: a bunch of rich people in there with let's just say, 40 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: their teen boys, because the rich people will send them 41 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: off to some kind of a rehab school or a 42 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: therapeutic school, and everybody else is left to go to gbjail. 43 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: Have you ever noticed that, Nancy, There's an expression something 44 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 1: to the effect to money is the root of all evil. 45 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: And so now, Andrew, you and I have had this conversation. 46 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: It's the love of money is the root of all evil. 47 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 1: Two's true. It's often at the heart of spectacular case. 48 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: So what is happening in this wealthy neighborhood where the 49 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 1: neighbors are all looking out their windows and oh, dear 50 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: Lord in Heaven they see a patrol car. Take a 51 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: listen to our friends at inside edition, he says he 52 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 1: survived seven days lost at sea after a tragic boating accident, 53 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: and his first words on getting home about his mom, 54 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: who has presumed drowned. And I just want to thank 55 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: the public for their prayers and for their continuing prayer 56 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: solf or my mother. But now a twist. Nathan says 57 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: he was fishing with his mother when their boats started 58 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: taking on water. The boats dropped out from under my 59 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: feet when I saw his life raft, I did not 60 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: see my mom. Have you found her? No, we haven't 61 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: been able to find her yet, Coast Guard radio responding, No, 62 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: we haven't been able to find her yet. Now that 63 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: is a crew that I really respect, the Coastguard. You 64 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: never hear about scandal or problems. They're out there doing 65 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: their job every single day. And when they say they 66 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: can't find her, I believe that they've really looked. Joining 67 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: me an all star panel to make sense of what 68 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: we know right now. First of all, legal expert in 69 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: maritime law. He's maritime attorney and consultant with Trade Wind 70 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: Maritime Services, Inc. And Old Mystic. You can find him 71 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: at Tradewin Maritime Services dot com. Andrew Norris joining us. 72 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: He is a professor at the US Naval War College 73 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: as well. Doctor Kathleen Heidi, psychotherapist and Distinguished University Professor 74 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: at University of South Florida Department of Criminology. And author. 75 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: Robert Crispin joining US private investigator. You can find him 76 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: at Crispin Investigations dot com. Doctor Kendall Crowns with US 77 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth lecturer University Texas, 78 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: Texas A and M and faculty, University Texas Medical Branch. 79 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: You know how hard it is to get to be 80 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: a medical examiner, much less the chief medical examiner. It's 81 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: not easy. But first I want to go to a 82 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: special guest joining us from the Brattleborough Reformer at Reformer 83 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: dot com, Bob Adet, what happened? I'm trying to get 84 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: my mind around what happened? How? Why was Linda Carman 85 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: with her son out on? What kind of a vessel was? 86 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: It was a fishing a boat. It was, you know, 87 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: not a huge vessel, but it was adequate. Well, first 88 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: tell me about the vessel. What do we know about 89 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: the boat? We know it was named the Chicken Park? Okay, 90 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: what why is it named the chicken Pox? Why would 91 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: you name your boat after an ailment? Well, I don't, 92 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: I don't. Nobody has a new boat and it's called 93 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: owl foxed um. But the you know, she's been out 94 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: Apparently she'd been out with him before. I'm fishing trips 95 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: not unusual, so it's not unusual the two of them 96 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: go fishing. Now, this was September seventeen, and this happened 97 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 1: near Martha's vineyard, Rhode Island. How cold would it be 98 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 1: out on the water on September seventeen in Rhode Island. 99 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: I would think it'd be rather cold, and I would 100 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: think the water temperature, which never really warms up off 101 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: in New England, was rather cold as well. Jackie, what 102 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: was the temperature off Block Island? Forty nine is okay? 103 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: So let me go to doctor Kendall Crowns, joining US 104 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: Chief Medical Examiner fort Worth. Doctor Kendall Crowns, if the 105 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: ambiance air outside is forty nine, what would you expect 106 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: the temp of the water to be? Usually? When it 107 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: called out the side like, the temperature of the water 108 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: will also drop as well, So you'll see fairly cold 109 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,239 Speaker 1: water matching the outdoor air temperature, if not even colder, 110 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: especially if it's in a big open ocean area. So 111 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: at least forty nine degrees would be the answer minus speculation, 112 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: and you're saying the water would be typically colder than 113 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: the air. Correct. Okay, So in the forties for a 114 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: human to go into the water, Doctor Kindle Crowns, let's 115 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: just go with forty five degrees. How long would it 116 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: take for human to get hypothermia? Forty five degrees water. 117 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: It is probably takes several minutes probably on the outside, 118 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: ten to fifteen, maybe a half hour at most that 119 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: you're going to cool pretty rapidly. So I'm going to 120 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: go with fifteen to thirty minutes for hypothermia to set in. 121 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: And what is hypothermia. Hypothermia is you're basically your body 122 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: being shut down cold. The cold surrounding it affects your 123 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: heart rate, it starts slowing it down, and then that 124 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: causes you to basically become unconscious and then eventually die. 125 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: So let me understand that the human body is usually 126 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: at what ninety eight point six? Is that right? That's correct, 127 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: And to get hypothermia, you have to be at what 128 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: temp to be officially hypothermic. When you start getting below 129 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: the nineties, you know you're starting to really get into 130 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: that hypothermic grande. Really, the body can't can't handle much 131 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 1: variation and temperature either way. So once you start getting 132 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: below ninety, hypothermia begins to set in. And you're saying 133 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: within thirty minutes you would succumb, Yeah, fifteen, thirty minutes, 134 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: even maybe ten, it's just a ten, now, is that 135 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: to get hypo to be hypothermic or to die. I 136 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: would say to die, you probably start being hypothermic within 137 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: out five ten minutes, So in thirty minutes and forty 138 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: degree water, you're dead more likely. Yeah. Have you ever 139 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: handled an autopsy where someone died of hypothermia? Yeah? Were 140 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: they in the water or in the air? Both? I 141 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: knew you were going to say both. I knew that. 142 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,839 Speaker 1: How many autopsies have you done? Just toss me a 143 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: number over eight thousand. Probably. I'm gonna quit bragging about 144 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: my number of jury trials. Okay, that that ends today, 145 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: right now. Never again. I can't compare to his eight 146 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: thousand autopsies. So doctor Kenel Crowns, tell me what happens 147 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: to the body. I mean, how can you look at 148 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: a body and know the person died of hypothermia. There's 149 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: a couple of things you can see. You can see 150 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: these these little dots in the stomach lining. They're called 151 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: wishnow ski vaulters, but they look like little ten points. Okay, 152 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: I need to write that down. Andrew Norris, you probably 153 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: already know this. It's your specialty is maritime law. But 154 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: this is all new to me. Why didn't you just say, 155 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: doctor Crowns. So you get these little dots from the stomach. 156 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: They're called wishno ulcers. Okay, correct, Why do you get ulcers? 157 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: It's well, they're called wish suskif ulcers. But they're kind 158 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: of like a little pinpoint hemorrhages throughout the lining. It's 159 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: just something that they've seen with hypothermia cases. That and 160 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: hemorrhage in the pancreas is the other kind of soft 161 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: findings you can see with hypothermia. But the problem is 162 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: is both those findings can be found in other things, 163 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: such as diabetes is the main one. And so what 164 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: it is is you kind of use circumstances and then 165 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: those findings, those signings with circumstances equal hypothermia. You don't 166 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: have those findings. And the persons shounting in cold environment again, 167 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: you can go hypothermia if they have no other cause 168 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: of death. I don't like that, doctor, I don't like 169 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: what you just said because you're making it sound like 170 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: it's kind of a process of elimination. Well, it kind 171 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: of is. As to the cod cause of death. I 172 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: wish I hadn't heard that, but I've heard it. But 173 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: doctor Kennel Crowns say here diabetic, would you have the 174 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: with schnootsky ulcers in both the pancreas and the stomach 175 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: or just the pancreas With diabetes the ulcers are only 176 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: in the stomach and in both hypothermia and diabetes, but 177 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: it's very uncommon with diabetes that it has been found 178 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: with it. I also believe that chronic alcoholism it's another one, 179 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 1: but it's only in the stomach with diabetes. What you're 180 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: gonna look for is also you can look at the 181 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: electrolyte or the glucose level that you get from the 182 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: victory of taping from the eyeball. Let me refine my question. 183 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: Say you find a body, a body washes up to 184 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: shore two weeks later, how could you tell if the 185 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: person died of hypothermia or they drowned. Well, again, look 186 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: for those findings that we've talked about, but the main 187 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 1: thing is that you would still there'd be no way 188 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: of saying, well, they got hypothermic and then drowned, or 189 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: they drowned without hypothermic. If you find those findings, you 190 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: know you'll be like, Okay, they were probably hypothermic before 191 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: they drowned. But anybody that lands and water you've got 192 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: to consider drowning right away. Listen. This is a kind 193 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: of discussion that happens in every good trial preparation. You've 194 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: got to be prepared. For instance, if I had doctor 195 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: Kennel Crowns on the stand on direct exam, I would 196 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: have to know the answer to all of these detailed 197 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: questions because if I don't know what, I guarantee you, 198 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: they're going to bring it up on cross exam and 199 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: they're gonna ambush me because I won't know what's true 200 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: or not true, and evans can be twisted to make 201 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: it appear to be something very different now what it 202 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: really is. So my niet Sa, the details of what 203 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: we've just heard with newski ulcers that appear in the 204 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: stomach when someone has hypothermia, that a trial could actually 205 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: turn onto minute fat like that time stories with Nancy Grace. 206 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: In this case, we have just heard the son say 207 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: I did not see my mom have a founder and 208 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 1: coastguard stating we haven't been able to find her yet. 209 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: So blah blah, Dad. They go out quite a bit 210 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: fishing alone together. But what about it these cold temperatures. 211 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: I don't know for sure, but you know the water 212 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: temperature never really changes, to be honest, So then probably, yes, guys, 213 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: we are talking about a mom, Linda Carmen, that goes 214 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: overboard on a fishing trip and to my understanding, her 215 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: body has never been found. Is that right, Bob, Her 216 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: body and the boat neither have been found. Okay, guys, 217 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: take a listen to this. Carmen was on a fishing 218 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: trip with his mother, Linda Carmen. The boat allegedly started 219 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: taking on water and sank. Linda Carmen's body was never found, 220 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: but her son Nathan was rescued from a life raft 221 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: by a passing ship. The coastguard then brought him back 222 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: to shore. The boat was never seaworthy, putting the blame 223 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: on the former owner. Quote, mister Carmen was a young 224 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: twenty two year old kid with more money than experience. 225 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: He the former owner of the boat took advantage of 226 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: him and sold him the boat. Heck, do you, Bob Adett. 227 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: There are claims that the boat was the problem, that 228 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: the boat began taking on water. I don't understand how 229 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: the boat can go down and the boat's never found. Well, 230 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: there's still discrevicy of where it actually happened. He told 231 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: folks it happened off a Block Island, but an expert 232 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: at woods Hall said that it could have never happened 233 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: there and he could have sunk that in two mile 234 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: deep water somewhere. So why did the experts say this 235 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: could never have happened off Block Island? So he filed 236 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: for an insurance claim and it eventually got denied in court. 237 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: But another maritime lawyer said that he spoke with folks 238 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: at woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, which said that if he 239 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: is his life raft had deployed at Block Canyon, the 240 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: life raft would not have drifted forty miles southeast, but 241 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: rather would have drifted in the opposite direction, about forty 242 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: miles northwest, where coast Guard would have found him on 243 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: September nineteenth, because that's where they were looking for him. Oh, 244 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: I get it. To Andrew Norris joining me mere a 245 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: time expert, lawyer and consultant, actually professor US Naval War College, 246 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: Andrew Norris, Now I get it. Why one expert said 247 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: it couldn't happen off Block Island because of the current, 248 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: the tide would have taken the boat in a different direction, 249 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: the raft, the rubber raft. Does that make sense? To you, Andrew, 250 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: it certainly does. So the story would be that the 251 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: boat sank, he somehow got on the life raft, was 252 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: a drift for a number of days, and then was recovered. 253 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: So when the coastguard gets a distress call like this 254 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: or discovers somebody in the water and does a search, 255 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: one of the key things that the coastguard does is 256 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: look for the prevailing currents, the drift patterns, and they 257 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: actually form a search grid based upon factors like that. 258 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: So very much the drift, what the water does in 259 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: the area would would be a central component of the 260 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: coastguard search. So let understand with me, expert lawyer Andrew Norris. Andrew, 261 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: you are so familiar, you know these waters, and this 262 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: type of investigation, like the back of your hand, is 263 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: what Nathan Carmen sang, happened possible? And I'm including the 264 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: fact that the boat the Chicken Pox was never found. 265 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:32,479 Speaker 1: Is it possible. Yes, it's possible. Boats sink and people 266 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: sometimes are never found or they're found us some days later. 267 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: So is it possible. Yes, there are some issues with this. 268 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: They gotten underway at eleven thirteen pm, as in almost midnight. 269 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: Oh wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Waite. Bob added, they 270 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: went out fishing at midnight in the boat was not 271 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: seaworthy according to testimony that was presented as as an 272 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: insurance trial. Wait did they go out fishing at midnight? Okay, 273 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: Andrew Norris, what else have you learned? And everybody jump 274 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: in because that's very significant to me. Hold on, Andrew Norris, 275 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: I I gotta speak to a shrink. Doctor Kathleen am 276 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: Heidi is with me, renowned psychotherapist of joining US Distinguish 277 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: University Professor, University, South Florida. Doctor Heidi, I'm an outdoors person. 278 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: We love to camp, we love to sleep under the stars, 279 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: we love to RV, we love to hike the whole shebang. 280 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: But I do not want to go out on night. 281 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: Dived once enough to know I did not want to 282 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: do it again. It takes a unique outdoors person to 283 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: go out at midnight in forty nine degree temp and hey, Jack, 284 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: we need to look at that chump again. I bet 285 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: it dropped by midnight that night. One am. Doctor Kathleen Hide, 286 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: I'm having a hard time believing this. Well, people do 287 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: go out at night. In fact, I vote myself at night, 288 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,199 Speaker 1: and I've worked for many years with the coast guards. 289 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: So some people go out seriously in terms of you know, 290 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: fishing and night expeditions. So it is unusual, particularly in 291 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: that climate. And I would absolutely agree that it's going 292 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: to be cold and the water is going to even 293 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: make it more cold. Now, my understanding is that this 294 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: is a way that the mother tried to spend time 295 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: with her son. It may strike some of us as unusual, 296 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 1: but that is apparently on the record as something the 297 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 1: two of them. Did you know, doctor Heidi, you just 298 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: answered all my questions. Because but my sound was a 299 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: little boy, I would take him. He loved arcades, the 300 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: video game all that, the ones where you dance on 301 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: them and where you swing baseballs, and we would go 302 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: for hours. The last thing I want to do, well, 303 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: nearly the last is played video games. But I would 304 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: do that with him. I've played Mortal Kombat, I've played 305 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 1: up where you dig tunnels, Minecraft, everything, all sorts of 306 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: board game, just you name it. And same thing with 307 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: my daughter. Now you spoke to my heart. Just then, 308 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: doctor Heidi, I get it why mom would go out 309 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 1: at night. Okay, enough, said Andrew Norris. What else can 310 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: you tell me? So the mother had apparently filed a 311 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 1: float plan, which is shows that it's very responsible boating 312 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: type activity. So and that Folt plan indicated that they 313 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 1: would return by about noon the other day, So it 314 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,479 Speaker 1: was intended as about a twelve hour tripped mostly at 315 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: night into the morning, and then returning by noon the 316 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:09,719 Speaker 1: next day. Of course, the boat never came back. And further, 317 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: what the federal prosecutors believe is that Nathan murdered his mother, 318 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: then at some later point sank or otherwise disposed of 319 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: the boat, and then was gotten into life, wrapped himself 320 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: and was found and rescued. So the theory at least 321 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: that he murdered his mother intentionally and by gun chatter 322 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 1: or however, and then disposed the boat and was later rescued. 323 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: So that is a suspicion. Something that Bob Odette said 324 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: earlier regarding the insurance company, it's absolutely correct. Take a 325 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: listen to our friend Jennifer Egan, she's ad WCVB. The 326 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: insurance company's attorney asked Carmen about his mother quote she 327 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: did scream when the boat fell out from underneath her, 328 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: to which Carmen replied, I did not hear a scream. 329 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: Carmen mentioned his mother and his email to the insurance 330 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: company writing quote, I did not see my mom after 331 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: the boat sank, though I looked around and called out 332 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: for her while I was in the water and after 333 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 1: getting on board the life raft. Carmen was rescued by 334 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: a passing cargo ship and brought to shore by the coastguard. 335 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: The insurance company hasn't paid Carmen's claim on the Chicken Fox, 336 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: saying alterations he made to the boat before the fishing 337 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: trip voided the policy. Wow, so many questions now to 338 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: Bob Adet, what alterations did the sun make to the boat? 339 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: He removed some sort of a cloak four plots actually 340 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: and actually made the holes bigger. And then when he 341 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: repaired them, he didn't do it to efects that would 342 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: ensure that the boat wouldn't take on water. So waitute 343 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: he altered the holes in the bottom of the boat, 344 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: which would have allowed water to come up into the boat, 345 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: the boat to take on water unless the plugs worked accurately. 346 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: Is that right? And there's really no understanding why he 347 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: would even make that sort of alteration to what was 348 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: before the alteration the seaworthy boat. How many days had 349 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: the sun been floating in the water. Nathan Carmen. How 350 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: many days had he been floating in the life raft? 351 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,479 Speaker 1: Nathan had been in the life raft for about a 352 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: week and when they rescue him, he definitely looked like 353 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: he'd been in a life raft for a week. Did 354 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: he have any provisions on the life raft of food 355 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: or water? Apparently he had thirty days worth of food 356 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 1: and water on the lifecraft. Okay, let me go to 357 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: our lawyer or Andrew Norris maritime expert. He had thirty 358 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: days of food in water supplies on the life raft. 359 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: Is that normal? Yeah, And so that's again the sign 360 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: of that that's a well planned and in terms of 361 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: having a lifecraft of that capability aboard and that amount 362 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: of provisions, that's a sign of responsible voting. What really 363 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: strikes me as odd about all this, though, is the 364 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 1: fact that it that he was supposedly a drift for 365 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: six days. He was ultimately recovered on September the twenty fifth. 366 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: It looks like the Coastguard even suspended its search for 367 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: him and for his mother and for the vessel the 368 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: day before they were rescued. So six days of Coastguard 369 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: searching couldn't find them. They're not that far offshore, so 370 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to me and really struck me as 371 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: unusual that it took so long for him to be recovered. 372 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: Makes you wonder exactly where the boat was. That's another 373 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: careious aspect of the case to me. You know, Nancy, 374 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: if I can jump in a little bit about this 375 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: whole boat situation, is this you Crispin's Kristen go ahead, 376 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: So so much of this boat is so important for 377 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: the modifications that happened to the boat and Wider's boat 378 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: went down, and to understand how a boat actually operates 379 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: other than just floating on the water, and understanding when 380 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: people are starting to do modifications, there's intentional things that 381 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: you do are going to sink your boat. The trim 382 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: tabs were taken off. What are trim tab well, trim 383 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: tabs are the things that are in the back of 384 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 1: the boat and you can adjust them by a switch 385 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: when you're driving as the captain to bring the bill 386 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: up and down. Those trim tabs are held on by screws. 387 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: If those screws are one or two of those screws 388 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: come out, you're going to start to get a leak 389 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 1: into your billage. That's the back of the boat. The 390 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: second thing is he also took out he took out 391 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: the bulkhead. What's the bulkhead. A bulkhead is goes from 392 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: starboard to port or left to right, and it's a 393 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: support beam for that boat. If that is not there, 394 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: that that boat, when it's underway, is going to start 395 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: to flex and it's going to start to let that 396 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: boat cracked. Also, according to the indictment, it talks about 397 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: he replaced that bilge pump a build trump is a 398 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: pump that automatically kicks on. It's hot wired whether your 399 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: boat or where your boat is on or off, and 400 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: it kicks him and it kicks the water out of 401 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: the build so your motor can keep going. One of 402 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: his statements are he looked in there and it was 403 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: filling with water. So understanding, when a boat goes down, 404 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: they do go down quick. I have seen it. I've 405 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: investigated them, and these boats do go down quick. But 406 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: if you're underway or you're fishing, you're starting to notice 407 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: a change in the boat, and you're going to start 408 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: to see things are wrong, and then you're going to 409 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 1: start to take a basive action for that, he admits 410 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: that he never checked to see if that bilge pump 411 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: worked or not. His own statement is pointing to this 412 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: is an intentional act. I don't know why you would 413 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: remove the bilge pump. Ever, I'm not a great editor, 414 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: but I know that much. And let me remind everybody 415 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: about a previous case we covered of Angelica Griswold, who 416 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,719 Speaker 1: sent her fiance out on the water in the Hudson 417 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: River and then it was later learned that she pulled 418 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: the plug. That phraseology, that adage is real. You pull 419 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: the plug on something. It's like pulling the plug out 420 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: of the bottom of the boat and it fills up 421 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: with water and you all go down. Now take a 422 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: listen to our friends at Inside Edition. The Coast Guard 423 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 1: had questions. Look, how remarkably fit he appeared after seven 424 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: days lost at sea. And there's this witness who says 425 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: Nathan and his mom were not prepared for a fishing trip. 426 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: I didn't see any fishing poles. I didn't even see 427 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: him with food. Why would you go on a fishing 428 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: trip without poles. It's starting to look worse and worse 429 00:27:41,280 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: for him. Time stories with Nancy Grace, guys for those 430 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 1: of you just joining us. A young man and his 431 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: mom go out on a nighttime cruise which is in disaster. 432 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 1: Neither the mother nor the ship have ever been found. 433 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: Listen to this. The case has generated wide interest. Carmen's 434 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 1: aunts have accused him of murdering his grandfather in twenty 435 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: thirteen and then killing his mother in an attempt to 436 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: collect a seven million dollar inheritance. And the attorney also 437 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: asked Carmen why he didn't radio for help when he 438 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: noticed that the boat was taking on quite a bit 439 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: of water. Carmen said that he had an aversion to 440 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: doing so unless he felt he was in real danger. 441 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: That attorney, though, pointed out that he had called for 442 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: help one time before. Okay, how does the grandfather fit 443 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: into this? What happened to the grandfather? Bob Audette and 444 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: I'm talking about John cho Is it Chocolo's or Chicolo's 445 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: What happened to him? Well? Three years he was murdered 446 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: into his bed while he was sleeping, shot apparently with 447 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: a six hour rifle in Windsor, Connecticut. How many times 448 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: has you shot? At least twice? Is my understanding? Now, 449 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: you were just hearing our friends at wcvby. Now take 450 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at Inside Edition speaking of 451 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: the grandfather. Nathan is now facing a firestorm of questions 452 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: with the revelation that he was a suspect in the 453 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: shooting death of his eighty seven year old grandfather, John Shakalos. 454 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: Jackalos was well known locally for the elaborate Christmas decorations 455 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: at his palatial estate in New Hampshire. The last person 456 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: to see him alive Nathan Carmen, his missing mom, fifty 457 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: four year old Linda Carmen, inherited his forty million dollar 458 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: estate with her siblings. Here's Stephen Fabian. Police here in 459 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: Connecticut where the grandfather was slain, actually drew up an 460 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: arrest warrant for Nathan almost three years ago, but the 461 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: young man was never arrested or charged. This person killed 462 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: at least once that we know of. This person's gotten 463 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: away with murder, and chances are it will happen again. Okay, 464 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: Andrew Norris, that breaks my heart. I remember, here's just 465 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: one example. When you're in Vanderslute got away with murdering 466 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: Natalie Holloway at that time, predicting that he would kill again. 467 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: Five years to the day, he kills Stephanie Tasiana Flores. 468 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: Here you have Andrew Norris. Andrew Norris, high profile lawyer 469 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: joining me out of Rhode Island. He's professor US Naval 470 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: War College. You have the family saying, whoever killed our 471 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: grandfather is going to kill again? Now you've got the 472 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: mother dead. Why was it he arrested then an indictment 473 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: had been drawn up? What we're wrong? You know, the 474 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: DA hasn't really spoken about it much, but I would 475 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: think that you know, there was no murder weapon found, 476 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: and I think that probably they were worried if they 477 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: took it to trial, that piece of evidence being missing 478 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,959 Speaker 1: would derail the whole thing. Well, you know many cases 479 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: have been tried without the murder weapon Robert Crispin. Why 480 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: would they not go forward with what they had? Because 481 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: I think it goes even further when they did the 482 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: search warrant at his house and they found out that 483 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: he took the GPS out of his truck and he 484 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: also took the mart drive out of his computer, So 485 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: we're not going to find any more physical effort, any 486 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: more electronic evidence that would have helped. But to me, 487 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: that's even is right there. Why would you take If 488 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: somebody told me to go take the GPS out of 489 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: my minivan, I would have to go look it up 490 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: on Google to figure out how to do it. What 491 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: person takes to removes the GPS from their vehicle at 492 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: the time their grandfather is murdered, he's an air to 493 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: multi millions of dollars. I mean, bob Ordette. The home 494 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: where the grandfather lives looks like a government building. It's huge. 495 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: And tell me about that gigantic Christmas light display they 496 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: put on every year. So this was his second home. 497 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: Actually was on Spoffored Lake, which is a pretty ritzy 498 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: place in the Hampshire, and it recently sold for three 499 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: point seven million dollars. Have been on the market since 500 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: John's death. Yeah, he would deck that thing out with 501 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of dollars for Christmas lights every year, 502 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: and he would encourage people to come by and look 503 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: and donate bags of food to the local food shelter. 504 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: And that's the grandfather that was murdered in his sleep. Yes, 505 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: And then the prosecutor chose not to do anything, to 506 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: just sit back on his thumb do nothing. And now 507 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: the mother, the grandfather's daughter. Okay, guys, we're trying to 508 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: figure out what happened. But I want to go to 509 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: doctor Kathleen m. Heidi joining us renounced psychotherapist. Doctor. You 510 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: actually wrote a book called Understanding Pariside, When Sons and 511 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: Daughters kill parents and why kids kill parents? Why do they? Well? 512 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: For my research and nical practice, there really are four ways, 513 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: and I'll sell them out quickly. You know, some kids 514 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: kill their parents because of long standing abuse, and they're 515 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: basically desperate or they're in fear of their lives and 516 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: they want to end the abuse. So that's the severely abused. 517 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: The second I refer to as a severely mentally ill 518 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: child or parasite offender. They're individuals who killed because of 519 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: severe mental illness, usually long standing and documented, and so 520 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: that would be something like the psychosis. Typically. A third 521 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: type are the dangerously anti social, and these are individuals 522 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: who killed because of a very selfish reason, such as 523 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: getting money, getting freedom, something of that nature. And the 524 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: fourth type are those who kill because they're enraged, oftentimes 525 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: with their parents. That may be longstanding and something sets 526 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,439 Speaker 1: it off, often fueled by alcohol or drugs. So those 527 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 1: are four primary pathways or motivations. Why individuals, both juveniles 528 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: or children, adolescents, and adults kill parents. So it's been 529 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: narrowed down to those four general reasons. But to murder 530 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 1: unless it's in self defense or unless you've been a 531 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,959 Speaker 1: long time abuse victim, which is in my mind much 532 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: the same. Why is the alternative murder? I mean, this 533 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: guy right here, Nathan Carmen, who declares he's innocent, he's 534 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: a grand man, he's almost thirty years old. Why not 535 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 1: just go out and make a living. I mean, take 536 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: a listen to grace a feinerman our cut two wmu 537 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: R listen to this. According to the indictment, Carmen got 538 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: around five hundred and fifty thousand dollars counts it up 539 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: by his grandfather as a result of the murder. Three 540 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: years later, Carmen's accused of planning a fishing trip with 541 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: his mother, Linda Carmen, only to kill her after leaving 542 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 1: the marina. The indictment says Carmen reported the boat's sank 543 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: and his mother disappeared at sea. He was rescued off 544 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: the coast of Martha's Vineyard. In July of twenty seventeen, 545 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: The executor of Carmen's grandfather's estate filed an action in 546 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: New Hampshire Probate Court claiming he killed John and Linda, 547 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,720 Speaker 1: this trying to prevent Carmen from benefiting from their deaths. 548 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: Throughout this process, the indictment says he provided false information 549 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: to law enforcement. False information to law enforcement. What would 550 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: that be? Bob all dad basically lying about everything about 551 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: the circumstances behind his grandfather's death, death, about the boat, 552 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: about the thinking, about what happened to his mother. He 553 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: lied about it all, according to the indictment, I'm wondering, 554 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:57,479 Speaker 1: Andrew Norris, whether the circumstances surrounding the grandfather's death will 555 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 1: come in in the trial regarding his mother's death. What 556 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: do you think, Well, it certainly would. And the interesting 557 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: thing is, so he's charged with eight counts. Seven of 558 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: them are fraud related. One is the account for murder. 559 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: And it should be pointed out that if convicted of 560 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: murder in the first degree, the punishment is life in 561 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: prison or death. So first degree murder is capital offense. 562 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: Second degree murder is punishable up to life in prison. 563 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 1: What makes something first degree murder versus second Well, but 564 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,800 Speaker 1: principally that it's malice the foe thought that it was planned, 565 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: and so the evidence of the planning for the killing 566 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: of his mother is what he is what will be 567 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: relevant in his trial. But I would think that in 568 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: proving that he the planning element of his mom, that 569 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: this wasn't just an accident, the prosecutors would also be 570 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: attempted to bring in evidence showing this sort of continued 571 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 1: plan by him to further the case that he committed 572 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: first degree murder in this particular case. I mean, the 573 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: guy just got almost a million dollars nearly six hundred 574 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: thousand dollars already. What he can't be happy with? That? 575 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 1: Did he have to kill his mother to get all 576 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: of her millions? Take a listen to our cut six WCVB. 577 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: Nathan Carmen and his attorney are seen here arriving this 578 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: morning at Federal Court in Providence, shortly before opening statements 579 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 1: began in the civil case brought against Carmen by the 580 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: insurance company for his sunken boat Chicken Pox. Carmen filed 581 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: an eighty five thousand dollars claim for the loss of 582 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: the boat. The insurance company has rejected that claim. During 583 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: opening statements this morning, the attorney for the insurance company 584 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 1: told the judge hearing the bench trial, quote, this is 585 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,399 Speaker 1: a case about a boat that left Point Judith with 586 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: holes in it and sank twelve hours later. The plaintiffs 587 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: claimed that Carmen made modifications to the thirty one foot 588 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,959 Speaker 1: vessel that voided the insurance policy, saying, quote, he made 589 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,320 Speaker 1: it unseaworthy. Listen that that boat went down so fast. 590 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: I suspect that that boat probably went down within the 591 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 1: first ten or fifteen minutes out that in much that's 592 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,839 Speaker 1: a fast sinking problem right there. We also should point 593 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: out that half million dollars was pretty much gone by 594 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: the time he put off from tour. What happened to 595 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: all that money? Way? Somehow? I mean, who the hell knows? 596 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: I mean, isn't he living at homeland? Mommy? My understanding 597 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: was no, he has a house in Vernon as his 598 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: own house. Nathan owned that house. According to tax tax records, 599 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: that house belonged to Nathan in Vernon. What house belonged 600 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,840 Speaker 1: to him? The house in Vernon where he was arrested, 601 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 1: and was that once part of his grandfather's estate. As 602 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,800 Speaker 1: far as I'm seeing tax records online, he held the deed. 603 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,919 Speaker 1: Nathan held the deed right, was it bequeathed to him? 604 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: Did it? Was it once part of the grandfather's estate? 605 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: I M no. I believe he Nathan bought that after 606 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 1: So it says that he bought it in October twenty fourteen, 607 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 1: would be a little less than a year after his 608 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: grandfather was murdered. What were you saying, doctor Heidie. I 609 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: wanted to point out, Nancy, so you're aware of it. 610 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: You mentioned he was twenty eight years old. He is now. 611 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: When he killed the grandfather, he would have been about 612 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: I think nineteen or twenty and the mother about twenty two, 613 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: so he was younger. Not to say that that exonerate Kim, 614 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 1: it clearly doesn't, but it'll bring in issues of brain 615 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 1: development and in terms of his awareness of the consequences. 616 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: So let me understand something, doctor Heidie. This is the 617 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 1: guy who just got nearly six hundred thousand dollars and 618 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: he still wants more money. That's what it appears to be. 619 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: I mean, let's put it this way. If he isn't 620 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: involved in orchestrating the deaths of his grandfather and father, 621 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: it's quite possible that it was done for a finance 622 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: chell motives and greed, and I've had cases where offspring 623 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 1: have killed parents to basically hasten their inheritance. I mean 624 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 1: that Amasi of the Menendez brothers yea perfect example. Though 625 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 1: they claimed they were molested by the father, why she 626 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: the mother too? She was crawling down the hall trying 627 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 1: to get away to bab Bodet. Where does the trial stand? 628 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: The Queen will trials stand right now? The judge detained 629 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: him until detention hearing on May sixteenth, and prosecution urged 630 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 1: the judge to have a mental health evaluation between now 631 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 1: and then. We wait as justice unfolds. Can this murder 632 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: case be proven not only without a boat, but without 633 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: the mother's body. Why would an adult son murder his 634 00:40:54,360 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 1: own mother and his grandfather? We wait as justice and 635 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: false Nancy Grace Crime's toy signing up good bye to 636 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: h