WEBVTT - Wild Faith: A Conversation with Talia Lavin 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:05.000 Cool Zone Media. 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:07.280 Hello, and welcome back to it could happen here in 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:09.920 your daily dose of the horrors that are, in fact, 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:13.640 already happening all around us. I'm your occasional host, Molly Conger, 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:15.320 and I am delighted to be joined today by the 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:20.360 critically acclaimed author of Culture Warlords, journalist researcher, sword enthusiast, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.840 Sandwich expert, and my friend Talia Lavin. Hello. 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:26.040 Yeah. 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:29.800 I once introduced myself at an event as a Sandwich historian, 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:34.400 which I think was the pinnacle of my public speaking career. 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:38.200 But this is a second pinnacle. Hey, Molly, what's up? 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:40.480 Thank you so much for coming on today to talk 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:44.120 with me about your new book, Wild Faith is coming 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:47.080 out in just a few weeks October fifteenth, right. 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:50.920 Yeah, Wild Faith, How the Christian Right is taking over America. 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:53.880 Not the terrible B movie entitled Wild Faith. 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:58.200 Yeah, the SEO is scrambled on that one. But the book, however, 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:01.200 is very good. I mean, first of all, I just 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:03.640 want to say, like I've been reading the gally copy 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:05.559 that you sent me, which I honestly made me feel 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.320 very fancy. I've never received a galley copy of a 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.399 book that's not out yet before. So I felt, you know, 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:13.440 kind of a kind of a broadcasting professional with my 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:14.760 special book. 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.839 It's an exclusive club. You're one of like five people 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:18.560 thus read it. 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:20.880 Oh my god, that is that's very exclusive. 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:21.679 Yeah. 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:24.200 Well it's about to become a lot less exclusive, so 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:25.880 feel special while you can, right. 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:28.000 But I realized while I was reading it, you know, 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:30.600 I have my little sticky tabs because I'm reading a 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:34.160 lot more books lately, regrettably not not not a big 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:34.840 time book guy. 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:36.560 It's always reading. 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:38.400 I read a lot of court documents, but I'm reading 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:40.280 a lot of books right now for research for my show, 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:42.440 and it's like my little sticky tabs. And as in 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:46.600 reading it, I realize I'm not marking passages that I 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:48.440 think would be useful for us to talk about in 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.880 this interview. I'm just putting my little tabs on passages 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:54.640 that just like punched me in the gut. 0:01:54.800 --> 0:02:00.000 You know, Ah, sorry for punching you. 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:01.800 No, but I mean, I mean with the way the 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:04.320 power of your words, because like a lot of what 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:09.560 I'm reading sucks. It's just right, Like I spent all 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:13.760 day yesterday reading like twenty five year old Issues of Resistance, 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:17.760 which was the quarterly magazine for a white power music label. 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:21.400 So this, I mean it's a real departure, So you know, 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:24.400 really just reveling in the richness of the pros and 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:27.400 the fact that it, you know, didn't want to kill me. 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:29.120 Yeah. 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:33.720 No, I also have experienced neo Nazi research fatigue, and 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:38.840 also just like the sort of relentless grimness of allowing 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:42.840 through these like fundamentally hostile texts, and also like academic texts, 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:45.760 which are difficult in their own way. I try to 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:50.320 write accessively or just like excitingly. I find that a 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:56.400 lot of especially nonfiction sort of journalism me books tend 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:58.280 to be a little dry, and I'm like, let's not 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:03.200 be dry. Let's be like spicy, and you know, like 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:06.840 form and function, Like you're more likely to be moved 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:09.840 by a message if you find the writing compelling. 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:12.760 You know, it's just you have such a way with words. 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:13.360 I mean, you know this. 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:15.800 You're a professional writer. I don't want to embarrass you 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:16.320 on the show. 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:22.280 So I'm twirling my air like yes, but I do 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:23.080 write for a living. 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:25.480 If you'll indulge me, if it's legal, if the publisher 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:27.800 will allow this, I just want to read this passage 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:29.960 from the introduction that I think is a good jumping 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:31.399 off point, and it was one of the first things 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.440 I marked because I was just like, oh, hell yeah, we're. 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:38.440 Getting into this. There's good words in here, okay. 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.160 The Christian Right is a force in American politics and 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.120 has been for decades, half a century to be precise, 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.400 during which it has steadily gained power. It started in 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:51.560 school rooms, continued in courtrooms, and perseveres with the aid 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:53.520 of people who are perfectly willing to call in bomb 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:57.600 threats to hospitals and attempt to overturn elections. It features 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:01.160 self proclaimed profits with a distinct interest in policy, newly 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:04.320 minted apostles with very definite ideas about spiritual battle and 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:07.400 its earthly components, and pastors eager to usher in the 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.880 end of the world. Its adherents have hymns and devotionals 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:13.800 and speaking tongues on occasion, and the showiest among them 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:16.479 are known to march their cities, blowing rams horns in 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.440 an effort to topple, as Joshua once did, the wicked 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.520 cities of the world. They have their own insular world, 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.760 their own media apparatus. They have legislators who could fire 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.680 in brimstone speeches from the badly carpeted rooms where laws 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.040 are made. They have lawyers too, and in case the 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:36.719 lawyers fail, there's always the promise of congregations that might 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:41.800 coalesce into mobs or arsonists. Who's burning holy zeal coalesces 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:47.160 into the tiny pinpoint of a molotop cocktail. And I 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:51.680 knew from the intro that we were in for a ride. 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:55.559 Yeah, it's like cast of characters, the worst people ever, 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:57.400 but like, let's write about it. 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:01.880 In an exciting way. I think that one of. 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.760 The themes of the book is really how these extra 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:11.000 legal extremist movements like the anti abortion terror movement, and 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:16.080 the legal framework of a movement work together. I actually 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:18.839 initially heard about this from a friend who was talking 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:22.000 about how like during the gay rights movement you had 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:25.400 sort of the act up builth demonstrations, the diets, and 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.480 then you have the sort of like more respectively coded 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.120 like gay people who you know, we're talking to the 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:34.280 government and trying to get elected and you know, really 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:36.920 trying to influence research, and that every movement needs sort 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:41.120 of a radical outside and then a respectable inside. And 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:45.880 I'm like, oh, this works in like the acratic movements too, 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:49.840 where you have like this you know, fringe that's burning 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:54.440 down clinics, and then people steadily working for fifty years 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.840 to like ban abortion, and they have the same DNA 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.919 and they have the same goals. They just go about 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.359 it differently but complement each other. And I think that's 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:06.400 like a running theme in the book, is that, like 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.120 you have lawyers and you have legislators, and then you 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.719 have mobs, and they're sort of all working towards the 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:17.480 same goals. And that's really what we're seeing, I think, 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.159 on the Christian Right after decades of building power. 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:23.800 Yeah, one of the notes that I wrote down in 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:25.320 that vein while I was reading was that, you know, 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:28.440 the Christian Right drives its power across a spectrum, right 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:31.320 from the clinic bomber to the senator. But it's not 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:33.479 you know, you might say two sides of the same coin. 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:36.440 But to me, it looks like this isn't two different 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:40.599 spheres of power too sort of separate but coexisting or 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:45.960 comorbid ideologies. They're just different numbers on the same dial, right, 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:47.479 it's turning up and turning down. 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:52.040 Yeah, it's like the hand that lights the torch and 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:55.120 the hand that puts it to the you know, pyre. 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:00.760 They perform different functions that they have really the same goals. 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:06.760 And if like me, you view stripping half the populace 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:12.240 of its bodily autonomy, imposing a theocracy, hounding queer people 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:19.080 out of public life, slash into death as fundamentally violent goals. Yeah, 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:23.240 I don't think there's like a respectable iteration necessarily, there's 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:27.520 just cosplaying respectability and right. 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:29.440 You can say it with a tie on on the 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:31.840 Senate floor, but it's it's the same message. 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:36.840 Yeah, And I think so much of our media apparatus 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:42.640 and governmental apparatus is really sort of views like again 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:45.320 this like form and function, right, Like if you are 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:49.080 if you say something politely, it doesn't really matter what 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.960 you're saying, like if you say something with a suit 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:55.760 on in the register of like, you know, in a 0:07:55.840 --> 0:08:00.720 calm sort of Mike Pencian, rush Limbaugh and decap As. 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:01.600 He called himself a boy. 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:03.280 She says, did he say that, Yeah, that's what he 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:05.520 called himself when he read it, did a like evangelical 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:06.239 radio show. 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:06.840 Yeah. 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.320 No, no matter what you say, as long as you 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:13.520 are like white and you say it politely, like this is. 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:14.760 Fundamentally sort of fine. 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.400 And then if you look at it from you know, 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:19.960 a step or two back, and you're like, no, actually, 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:23.720 no matter how politely say it, this is like a violent, 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:31.280 deeply unpopular theocratic agenda that like fundamentally is incompatible with 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:36.920 multiracial democracy. I also think, and I keep running into this, 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:39.680 like well meaning liberals being like, but isn't there a 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:41.080 separation of church and state? 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:41.920 And I'm like, I don't know. 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.160 Do you fucking think there is? In Alabama? Do you 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:48.160 think there is an Arkansas? And all of these you 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:52.560 know in Texas, Like all of these figures are like, 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:53.320 we're Christians. 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:56.040 We're making laws for Jesus, and. 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:58.040 We have covenant marriages and we want you to too. 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.400 Yeah, like we're gonna outlage because of God, and like, 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.640 you know, women dying of sepsis in hospital parking lots 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:09.040 is what Jesus wants. And like, and I experienced this, 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.320 I think you probably have to when you like report 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:18.560 on you know, zealots and extremists, and people inevitably wind 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:23.240 up like measuring other people's weep by their own bushel. 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:25.520 In other words, they are like they can't really believe 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:28.920 this stuff, and it's like, no, they really do, they 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:30.360 can't really have these goals. 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.120 First of all, they do, but also doesn't. 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:36.520 Matter, right, I mean the question of like impact versus intent. 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:39.480 First of all, it's I think it's perfectly possible to 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:41.240 be both a grifter and a true believer at the 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:41.760 same time. 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:43.520 That's just synergy baby. 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:45.080 Yeah. 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:49.400 And also fundamentally, this is a world premise done grievance, 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.120 where it's this idea that like, the world has got 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.320 one over on you. And so in a sense, grift 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.280 is just like, well, you know, the world's corrupt and 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:01.760 I'm fighting a righteous cause, so what does it matter 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:05.840 the ethics that I sort of skip on along the way. 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:08.560 I mean, once you've amped the stakes up to you're 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:11.760 fighting the literal devil and everyone who's getting in my 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.839 way is animated by actual demons from Hell. 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:17.880 I mean, the stakes couldn't be higher. So you do 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:18.559 what you have to. 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:21.960 Do exactly, and it's this theory of power. And so 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:25.760 then people sort of standing outside of that paradigm who 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.240 are not keyed into this idea of like we're in 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:32.480 an ethical spiritual battle and we must create like a 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:36.200 Kingdom of Christ on earth in America to win against 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.840 the devil, and then people outside being like, you're hypocrites, 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.520 and it's like it's not a valid criticism to them 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:44.800 because they're like, first of all, you're not like a 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:48.200 Christian if you're a liberal, but also like you're not 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:52.600 on our level, Like we're fighting Lucifer and you're probably 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.040 a stand like on his team if you oppose us. So, 0:10:56.600 --> 0:11:01.439 you know, a multitude of apparent hypocrisies can be excused 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.360 by the idea that like this is a holy war 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:10.040 and in war there's like all kinds of avert behavior. 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:11.840 That's they're doing holy war crimes. 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:13.160 Yeah, exactly. 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:15.400 I mean this is why, for example, you see a 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:19.840 lot of like prominent female figures from Philish Slafley, you know, 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:23.040 in the seventies and eighties, to like the trad wives now, 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.360 and it's like, how does this fit in with your 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:29.120 overall sort of idea that women should be chaste and 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:31.520 submissive and meek and silent. I mean, first of all, 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:34.840 tradwife stuff is often fetish Spanish content. 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.599 But yeah, I mean Pilish Laffy made a living professionally 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:42.560 saying that women shouldn't make a living professionally, but that 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:44.440 contradiction doesn't matter. 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.559 Yeah, I mean I think I call them valkyries for 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.319 feminine submission in the book. Yeah, I mean, at the 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:53.559 end of the day, like if you believe that this 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:57.600 is your your calling, your mission, you know, your mission 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.679 field in the service of the Lord to undo the 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:04.200 demonic sort of influence of feminism, Like of course you're 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:05.680 going to. 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:07.280 Speak, You've been moved by God to do so. 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:08.000 Yeah. 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:12.800 And of course, like female leaders with the evangelical community, 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.719 like sort of minority Republicans can be like knocked off 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:20.040 their pedestal quicker and easier, but like they. 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:23.080 Still can come out and exist and testify. 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:27.360 And Schlaughley throughout her very long prolific and lucrative career, 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:31.760 you know, was like I'm a housewife with six kids, 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:34.439 and that was her. That was how she defined herself, 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:38.600 even while being this incredibly prominent figure and one of 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:41.439 the sort of key architects of the current Christian right 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:45.679 coalition of like right wing Catholics. She and Paul we 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:49.120 Wairik and Leonard Leo and some other right wing Catholics 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:54.280 brought these Catholic values of being all about abortion to 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.680 the evangelical right, which prior to the seventies is like, 0:12:57.679 --> 0:12:58.840 that's a weird Catholic thing. 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:00.679 You don't really I. 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:01.560 Wanted to talk about that. 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.040 So I'm not sure how sort of common knowledge this is, 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:10.319 but the Protestant Christian community in the United States did 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:12.920 not care about abortion until the seventies. It was not 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.559 an issue in their communities. They were generally pro abortion. 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.600 They were you know, the Baptists were in favor of 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:18.880 Roe V. 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:19.440 Wade. 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:23.040 Yeah, the fucking Southern Baptist Convention came out in like 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.680 seventy four I think it was, and was like, yeah, 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:27.320 we approve of rov Wade. 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.120 So it's not like, you know, opposition to abortion is 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:35.280 baked into Christianity. It is baked into the American Evangelical 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:39.440 Christianity of post nineteen seventy five or so because of 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.920 this sort of conscious cynical political decision. And that I 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:46.720 think is so interesting because you know, you get into 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.520 this conversation of well, what are their deeply held beliefs 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:51.760 and do they really believe it and does that matter? 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.760 But we can pin down the moment they started believing 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:58.520 this and we know why, and it's segregation. 0:13:59.520 --> 0:13:59.760 Yeah. 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.360 I mean, first of all, I would say, like people 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:06.160 can still like this is like several generations later of 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:11.319 like constant barrages of extremely violent propaganda against abortions. 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.320 So right, so the belief is sincere today, but you 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:16.160 could look at it where it was born. 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.600 Yeah, exactly, you should have been aborted, right, yeah, no, 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:21.640 it definitely should not have been carried to term. But 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:26.400 like it's it's crazy. And in addition to Mooi's book, 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.920 Randall Baumer does some really good coverage of this. So 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:34.560 the sort of general arc is like three sort of 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:40.840 nineteen seventies, you had this like generally conservative population of 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:45.760 Southern Baptists who were like on board with McCarthyism, hated 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.560 the godless Reds, but kind of viewed politics as like 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:53.840 worldly and not really their sphere, and we're not particularly 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:57.880 politically engaged. And then brown versus a board of education 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:04.920 passes immediately, the white Christian populist just disinvests these from 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.480 the public schools, leaving multiple counties in the South without 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:15.320 functionally any public education at all. And this mushroom after rain, 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:20.480 kind of like patch of patches of parochial schools with 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:23.920 church or Christian in the name start popping up, and 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:28.120 they're all white schools their segregation academies is the sort 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.720 of term of art for these and they're explicitly under 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.840 a Christian agis they're religious schools. 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:37.280 They're tax exempt as a result. 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:41.680 And then in like the late sixties and seventies, the 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:45.920 government was like, you can't be tax exempt and like 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:51.240 considered a charitable organization if you are segregated and don't 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:52.360 have any black. 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:53.960 Students or minority students. 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.120 And that is what woke the sleeping dragon of the 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.760 Christian right really like, you know, get your filthy government 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:05.360 hands off our tax exemptions. Like they just went, you 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:09.960 know nuts. They were really mobilized, you know, like these 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:13.080 are the people who are like growing tomatoes at Ruby Bridges, Like, 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.720 you know, they're really politically motivated for the first time 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:21.720 because they're experiencing like a consequence for segregation. 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:26.680 And so this is when like Jerry Fowell. 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:31.640 And Ralph Reid and you know, James Dobson start sort 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.240 of coming forward and being more prominent. And then by 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:38.720 the sort of mid seventies to eighties, you had these 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:43.840 like savvy or political operators coming out and saying, hey, guys, 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:48.560 segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever is like, it's great 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:52.200 that it really fired y'all up, but it has sort 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.120 of a limited appeal. 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:55.680 And they shot George Wallace. It's over. 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.320 Yeah, Like there's going to be a sailing on that, 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.240 and a lot of people think you suck. So why 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.160 are you getting on the ground on this new civil 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:07.080 rights struggle abortion where you can fight for the unborn 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.919 who conveniently will never disagree with you. 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:13.639 Right, their voices don't have to be centered here. We 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:14.640 can speak for them. 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:19.120 I mean, they're the most convenient political constituency in history. 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.560 Right because they're so innocent and you can't milkshake duck 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:23.160 a fetus. 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:23.960 He's not even here. 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.160 Yeah, he can't talk, but he's not gonna say shit. 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.639 So I mean that's like the very capsule history. And 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:44.800 then of course it becomes this idea of like the 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:48.359 moral majority and where the guardians of America's soul and 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:50.240 we're gonna get really weird about sex. 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:52.200 Also, it's just. 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:54.439 Like if you strip it all the way down to 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.600 the studs, Like the core of this is women are 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.719 bleeding to death in hospital parking lots because Gary Fowell 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.160 didn't want to pay his taxes or stop being racist. 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.639 Yeah, I mean that's not fair. 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.919 No, people sometimes like are a little skeptical when I'm like, 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:15.960 all of the hatreds are interconnected. But then you look 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:19.639 at like concrete historical examples of like this world historical 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.240 wave of misogyny. I mean, it's not that this population 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:26.560 wasn't like weird about sex or weird about women like. 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:27.040 To start with. 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.040 I mean maybe they would have gotten here a different way, 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:30.639 but that's how we got here. 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:33.760 Yeah, we got here by just like no, we will 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:39.520 pay taxes on our segregation academies. Bob Jones University's inter 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:44.879 racial dating ban is perfectly great, and we're gonna mobilize 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:48.000 about it. And so what you have then now is 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:52.000 just like fifty years of political lock staff because and 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:53.080 you see this. 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:55.800 In like other religious communities. I mean, like I know, like. 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:58.679 It's sort of notorious how much corruption slides by in 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:01.119 New York because like the that a communities vote as 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:06.040 a block, like it is very useful to have a 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:08.479 congregation that all votes the same way. 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:10.200 It's politically useful. 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.400 I mean, what other populations can you get together once 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:15.919 a week as a captive audience and speak to with 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.280 authority if you can mobilize those people. And that's what 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.920 Jerry Folwell saw, right, is like this is a great 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:23.520 way to get a lot of people to vote the 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:24.600 way I want them to vote. 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.119 Yeah, And you know, the church has always been like 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:32.480 a really prominent institution in American civil society, especially as 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:37.359 the rest of sort of civil society has fallen away 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.639 and degraded. Like churches are some of the only social 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.960 outlets that Americans have. And what's interesting when you talk 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:47.159 to evangelicals and next evangelicals is just like being a 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.040 Republican is like part of their religious identity in a 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.280 major way. It's like this is how you vote, and 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:56.359 this is you know, how you dress, and this is 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.399 how you go to church and so on. But like 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:01.920 the idea of being a Democrat is like not only 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.320 you know, a little bit out of step with your community, 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:06.159 it's heretical. 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:07.520 I mean, that's how the demons get in. 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:11.520 Yeah, yeah, demoncrats, I mean, and like, yeah, it's stupid. 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:14.480 But it's also like half of the people saying demoncrats 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.440 like literally mean democrats are aligned with Lucifer. 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:19.840 And I think that's a point that I don't want 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:22.159 to get lost on the listener. This you know, this 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:26.240 idea that people literally have demons in them, that demons 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:28.919 are active in the world, that demons are motivating the 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:30.120 actions of their enemies. 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:32.000 It is real for them. 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:35.679 And I'm not saying that to be derisive or you know, 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:36.600 it's real. 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:37.200 It's real. 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.679 It is an animating factor for a lot of these people. 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:44.280 And that's hard to wrap your mind around. I mean, 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:47.680 I struggle with the idea that that is real for them. 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:49.960 But like that's how you get things like satanic panic, 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:52.119 and we see echoes of satanic panic in this idea 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:55.080 of you know, groomers in kids' schools. They really have 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:59.720 this fundamental, like foundational belief in this, you know, whether 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:01.960 or not they're calling it demons, that the existence of 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:05.920 some sort of ontological evil that is coming for their children. 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:08.280 And like once you arrive at the place where, like 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:10.840 where you understand that that's real for them, their actions 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:13.320 make more sense. Like they're not behaving irrationally if you 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:16.080 if you truly believe that these things were happening, you'd 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:16.920 act crazy too. 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:20.720 Yeah, I mean it's really hard to get people to 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:25.119