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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome back to it could happen here in

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Speaker 2: your daily dose of the horrors that are, in fact,

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Speaker 2: already happening all around us. I'm your occasional host, Molly Conger,

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Speaker 2: and I am delighted to be joined today by the

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Speaker 2: critically acclaimed author of Culture Warlords, journalist researcher, sword enthusiast,

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Speaker 2: Sandwich expert, and my friend Talia Lavin. Hello.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I once introduced myself at an event as a Sandwich historian,

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Speaker 4: which I think was the pinnacle of my public speaking career.

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Speaker 3: But this is a second pinnacle. Hey, Molly, what's up?

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on today to talk

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Speaker 2: with me about your new book, Wild Faith is coming

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Speaker 2: out in just a few weeks October fifteenth, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Wild Faith, How the Christian Right is taking over America.

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Speaker 3: Not the terrible B movie entitled Wild Faith.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the SEO is scrambled on that one. But the book, however,

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Speaker 2: is very good. I mean, first of all, I just

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Speaker 2: want to say, like I've been reading the gally copy

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Speaker 2: that you sent me, which I honestly made me feel

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Speaker 2: very fancy. I've never received a galley copy of a

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Speaker 2: book that's not out yet before. So I felt, you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of a kind of a broadcasting professional with my

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Speaker 2: special book.

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Speaker 4: It's an exclusive club. You're one of like five people

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Speaker 4: thus read it.

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Speaker 5: Oh my god, that is that's very exclusive.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well it's about to become a lot less exclusive, so

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Speaker 4: feel special while you can, right.

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Speaker 2: But I realized while I was reading it, you know,

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Speaker 2: I have my little sticky tabs because I'm reading a

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Speaker 2: lot more books lately, regrettably not not not a big

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Speaker 2: time book guy.

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Speaker 5: It's always reading.

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Speaker 2: I read a lot of court documents, but I'm reading

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Speaker 2: a lot of books right now for research for my show,

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Speaker 2: and it's like my little sticky tabs. And as in

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Speaker 2: reading it, I realize I'm not marking passages that I

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Speaker 2: think would be useful for us to talk about in

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Speaker 2: this interview. I'm just putting my little tabs on passages

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Speaker 2: that just like punched me in the gut.

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Speaker 4: You know, Ah, sorry for punching you.

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Speaker 2: No, but I mean, I mean with the way the

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Speaker 2: power of your words, because like a lot of what

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Speaker 2: I'm reading sucks. It's just right, Like I spent all

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Speaker 2: day yesterday reading like twenty five year old Issues of Resistance,

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Speaker 2: which was the quarterly magazine for a white power music label.

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Speaker 2: So this, I mean it's a real departure, So you know,

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Speaker 2: really just reveling in the richness of the pros and

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Speaker 2: the fact that it, you know, didn't want to kill me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: No, I also have experienced neo Nazi research fatigue, and

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Speaker 4: also just like the sort of relentless grimness of allowing

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Speaker 4: through these like fundamentally hostile texts, and also like academic texts,

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Speaker 4: which are difficult in their own way. I try to

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Speaker 4: write accessively or just like excitingly. I find that a

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Speaker 4: lot of especially nonfiction sort of journalism me books tend

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Speaker 4: to be a little dry, and I'm like, let's not

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Speaker 4: be dry. Let's be like spicy, and you know, like

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Speaker 4: form and function, Like you're more likely to be moved

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Speaker 4: by a message if you find the writing compelling.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's just you have such a way with words.

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Speaker 5: I mean, you know this.

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Speaker 2: You're a professional writer. I don't want to embarrass you

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Speaker 2: on the show.

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Speaker 4: So I'm twirling my air like yes, but I do

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Speaker 4: write for a living.

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Speaker 2: If you'll indulge me, if it's legal, if the publisher

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Speaker 2: will allow this, I just want to read this passage

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Speaker 2: from the introduction that I think is a good jumping

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Speaker 2: off point, and it was one of the first things

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Speaker 2: I marked because I was just like, oh, hell yeah, we're.

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Speaker 5: Getting into this. There's good words in here, okay.

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Speaker 2: The Christian Right is a force in American politics and

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Speaker 2: has been for decades, half a century to be precise,

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Speaker 2: during which it has steadily gained power. It started in

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Speaker 2: school rooms, continued in courtrooms, and perseveres with the aid

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Speaker 2: of people who are perfectly willing to call in bomb

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Speaker 2: threats to hospitals and attempt to overturn elections. It features

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Speaker 2: self proclaimed profits with a distinct interest in policy, newly

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Speaker 2: minted apostles with very definite ideas about spiritual battle and

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Speaker 2: its earthly components, and pastors eager to usher in the

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Speaker 2: end of the world. Its adherents have hymns and devotionals

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Speaker 2: and speaking tongues on occasion, and the showiest among them

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Speaker 2: are known to march their cities, blowing rams horns in

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Speaker 2: an effort to topple, as Joshua once did, the wicked

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Speaker 2: cities of the world. They have their own insular world,

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Speaker 2: their own media apparatus. They have legislators who could fire

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Speaker 2: in brimstone speeches from the badly carpeted rooms where laws

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Speaker 2: are made. They have lawyers too, and in case the

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Speaker 2: lawyers fail, there's always the promise of congregations that might

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Speaker 2: coalesce into mobs or arsonists. Who's burning holy zeal coalesces

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Speaker 2: into the tiny pinpoint of a molotop cocktail. And I

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Speaker 2: knew from the intro that we were in for a ride.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like cast of characters, the worst people ever,

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Speaker 4: but like, let's write about it.

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Speaker 3: In an exciting way. I think that one of.

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Speaker 4: The themes of the book is really how these extra

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Speaker 4: legal extremist movements like the anti abortion terror movement, and

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Speaker 4: the legal framework of a movement work together. I actually

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Speaker 4: initially heard about this from a friend who was talking

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Speaker 4: about how like during the gay rights movement you had

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Speaker 4: sort of the act up builth demonstrations, the diets, and

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Speaker 4: then you have the sort of like more respectively coded

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Speaker 4: like gay people who you know, we're talking to the

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Speaker 4: government and trying to get elected and you know, really

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Speaker 4: trying to influence research, and that every movement needs sort

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Speaker 4: of a radical outside and then a respectable inside. And

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Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, this works in like the acratic movements too,

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Speaker 4: where you have like this you know, fringe that's burning

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Speaker 4: down clinics, and then people steadily working for fifty years

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Speaker 4: to like ban abortion, and they have the same DNA

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Speaker 4: and they have the same goals. They just go about

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Speaker 4: it differently but complement each other. And I think that's

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Speaker 4: like a running theme in the book, is that, like

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Speaker 4: you have lawyers and you have legislators, and then you

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Speaker 4: have mobs, and they're sort of all working towards the

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Speaker 4: same goals. And that's really what we're seeing, I think,

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Speaker 4: on the Christian Right after decades of building power.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the notes that I wrote down in

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Speaker 2: that vein while I was reading was that, you know,

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Speaker 2: the Christian Right drives its power across a spectrum, right

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Speaker 2: from the clinic bomber to the senator. But it's not

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Speaker 2: you know, you might say two sides of the same coin.

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Speaker 2: But to me, it looks like this isn't two different

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Speaker 2: spheres of power too sort of separate but coexisting or

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Speaker 2: comorbid ideologies. They're just different numbers on the same dial, right,

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Speaker 2: it's turning up and turning down.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like the hand that lights the torch and

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Speaker 4: the hand that puts it to the you know, pyre.

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Speaker 4: They perform different functions that they have really the same goals.

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Speaker 4: And if like me, you view stripping half the populace

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Speaker 4: of its bodily autonomy, imposing a theocracy, hounding queer people

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Speaker 4: out of public life, slash into death as fundamentally violent goals. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I don't think there's like a respectable iteration necessarily, there's

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Speaker 4: just cosplaying respectability and right.

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Speaker 2: You can say it with a tie on on the

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Speaker 2: Senate floor, but it's it's the same message.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think so much of our media apparatus

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Speaker 4: and governmental apparatus is really sort of views like again

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Speaker 4: this like form and function, right, Like if you are

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Speaker 4: if you say something politely, it doesn't really matter what

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Speaker 4: you're saying, like if you say something with a suit

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Speaker 4: on in the register of like, you know, in a

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Speaker 4: calm sort of Mike Pencian, rush Limbaugh and decap As.

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Speaker 3: He called himself a boy.

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Speaker 4: She says, did he say that, Yeah, that's what he

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Speaker 4: called himself when he read it, did a like evangelical

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Speaker 4: radio show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: No, no matter what you say, as long as you

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Speaker 4: are like white and you say it politely, like this is.

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Speaker 3: Fundamentally sort of fine.

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Speaker 4: And then if you look at it from you know,

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Speaker 4: a step or two back, and you're like, no, actually,

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Speaker 4: no matter how politely say it, this is like a violent,

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Speaker 4: deeply unpopular theocratic agenda that like fundamentally is incompatible with

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Speaker 4: multiracial democracy. I also think, and I keep running into this,

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Speaker 4: like well meaning liberals being like, but isn't there a

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Speaker 4: separation of church and state?

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: Do you fucking think there is? In Alabama? Do you

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Speaker 4: think there is an Arkansas? And all of these you

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Speaker 4: know in Texas, Like all of these figures are like,

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Speaker 4: we're Christians.

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Speaker 3: We're making laws for Jesus, and.

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Speaker 5: We have covenant marriages and we want you to too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like we're gonna outlage because of God, and like,

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Speaker 4: you know, women dying of sepsis in hospital parking lots

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Speaker 4: is what Jesus wants. And like, and I experienced this,

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Speaker 4: I think you probably have to when you like report

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Speaker 4: on you know, zealots and extremists, and people inevitably wind

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Speaker 4: up like measuring other people's weep by their own bushel.

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Speaker 4: In other words, they are like they can't really believe

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Speaker 4: this stuff, and it's like, no, they really do, they

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Speaker 4: can't really have these goals.

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Speaker 5: First of all, they do, but also doesn't.

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Speaker 4: Matter, right, I mean the question of like impact versus intent.

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Speaker 4: First of all, it's I think it's perfectly possible to

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Speaker 4: be both a grifter and a true believer at the

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Speaker 4: same time.

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Speaker 5: That's just synergy baby.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And also fundamentally, this is a world premise done grievance,

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Speaker 4: where it's this idea that like, the world has got

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Speaker 4: one over on you. And so in a sense, grift

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Speaker 4: is just like, well, you know, the world's corrupt and

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Speaker 4: I'm fighting a righteous cause, so what does it matter

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Speaker 4: the ethics that I sort of skip on along the way.

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Speaker 2: I mean, once you've amped the stakes up to you're

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Speaker 2: fighting the literal devil and everyone who's getting in my

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Speaker 2: way is animated by actual demons from Hell.

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Speaker 5: I mean, the stakes couldn't be higher. So you do

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Speaker 5: what you have to.

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Speaker 4: Do exactly, and it's this theory of power. And so

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Speaker 4: then people sort of standing outside of that paradigm who

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Speaker 4: are not keyed into this idea of like we're in

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Speaker 4: an ethical spiritual battle and we must create like a

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Speaker 4: Kingdom of Christ on earth in America to win against

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Speaker 4: the devil, and then people outside being like, you're hypocrites,

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Speaker 4: and it's like it's not a valid criticism to them

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Speaker 4: because they're like, first of all, you're not like a

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Speaker 4: Christian if you're a liberal, but also like you're not

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Speaker 4: on our level, Like we're fighting Lucifer and you're probably

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Speaker 4: a stand like on his team if you oppose us. So,

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Speaker 4: you know, a multitude of apparent hypocrisies can be excused

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Speaker 4: by the idea that like this is a holy war

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Speaker 4: and in war there's like all kinds of avert behavior.

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Speaker 5: That's they're doing holy war crimes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 4: I mean this is why, for example, you see a

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Speaker 4: lot of like prominent female figures from Philish Slafley, you know,

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Speaker 4: in the seventies and eighties, to like the trad wives now,

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Speaker 4: and it's like, how does this fit in with your

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Speaker 4: overall sort of idea that women should be chaste and

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Speaker 4: submissive and meek and silent. I mean, first of all,

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Speaker 4: tradwife stuff is often fetish Spanish content.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean Pilish Laffy made a living professionally

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Speaker 2: saying that women shouldn't make a living professionally, but that

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Speaker 2: contradiction doesn't matter.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think I call them valkyries for

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Speaker 4: feminine submission in the book. Yeah, I mean, at the

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Speaker 4: end of the day, like if you believe that this

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Speaker 4: is your your calling, your mission, you know, your mission

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Speaker 4: field in the service of the Lord to undo the

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Speaker 4: demonic sort of influence of feminism, Like of course you're

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Speaker 4: going to.

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Speaker 2: Speak, You've been moved by God to do so.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And of course, like female leaders with the evangelical community,

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Speaker 4: like sort of minority Republicans can be like knocked off

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Speaker 4: their pedestal quicker and easier, but like they.

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Speaker 3: Still can come out and exist and testify.

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Speaker 4: And Schlaughley throughout her very long prolific and lucrative career,

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Speaker 4: you know, was like I'm a housewife with six kids,

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Speaker 4: and that was her. That was how she defined herself,

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Speaker 4: even while being this incredibly prominent figure and one of

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Speaker 4: the sort of key architects of the current Christian right

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Speaker 4: coalition of like right wing Catholics. She and Paul we

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Speaker 4: Wairik and Leonard Leo and some other right wing Catholics

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Speaker 4: brought these Catholic values of being all about abortion to

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Speaker 4: the evangelical right, which prior to the seventies is like,

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Speaker 4: that's a weird Catholic thing.

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Speaker 3: You don't really I.

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Speaker 5: Wanted to talk about that.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not sure how sort of common knowledge this is,

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Speaker 2: but the Protestant Christian community in the United States did

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Speaker 2: not care about abortion until the seventies. It was not

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Speaker 2: an issue in their communities. They were generally pro abortion.

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Speaker 2: They were you know, the Baptists were in favor of

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Speaker 2: Roe V.

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Speaker 5: Wade.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the fucking Southern Baptist Convention came out in like

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Speaker 4: seventy four I think it was, and was like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: we approve of rov Wade.

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Speaker 2: So it's not like, you know, opposition to abortion is

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Speaker 2: baked into Christianity. It is baked into the American Evangelical

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Speaker 2: Christianity of post nineteen seventy five or so because of

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Speaker 2: this sort of conscious cynical political decision. And that I

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Speaker 2: think is so interesting because you know, you get into

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Speaker 2: this conversation of well, what are their deeply held beliefs

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Speaker 2: and do they really believe it and does that matter?

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Speaker 2: But we can pin down the moment they started believing

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Speaker 2: this and we know why, and it's segregation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean, first of all, I would say, like people

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Speaker 4: can still like this is like several generations later of

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Speaker 4: like constant barrages of extremely violent propaganda against abortions.

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Speaker 2: So right, so the belief is sincere today, but you

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Speaker 2: could look at it where it was born.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, you should have been aborted, right, yeah, no,

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Speaker 4: it definitely should not have been carried to term. But

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Speaker 4: like it's it's crazy. And in addition to Mooi's book,

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Speaker 4: Randall Baumer does some really good coverage of this. So

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Speaker 4: the sort of general arc is like three sort of

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Speaker 4: nineteen seventies, you had this like generally conservative population of

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Speaker 4: Southern Baptists who were like on board with McCarthyism, hated

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Speaker 4: the godless Reds, but kind of viewed politics as like

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Speaker 4: worldly and not really their sphere, and we're not particularly

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Speaker 4: politically engaged. And then brown versus a board of education

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Speaker 4: passes immediately, the white Christian populist just disinvests these from

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Speaker 4: the public schools, leaving multiple counties in the South without

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Speaker 4: functionally any public education at all. And this mushroom after rain,

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Speaker 4: kind of like patch of patches of parochial schools with

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Speaker 4: church or Christian in the name start popping up, and

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Speaker 4: they're all white schools their segregation academies is the sort

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Speaker 4: of term of art for these and they're explicitly under

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Speaker 4: a Christian agis they're religious schools.

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Speaker 3: They're tax exempt as a result.

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Speaker 4: And then in like the late sixties and seventies, the

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Speaker 4: government was like, you can't be tax exempt and like

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Speaker 4: considered a charitable organization if you are segregated and don't

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Speaker 4: have any black.

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Speaker 3: Students or minority students.

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Speaker 4: And that is what woke the sleeping dragon of the

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Speaker 4: Christian right really like, you know, get your filthy government

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Speaker 4: hands off our tax exemptions. Like they just went, you

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Speaker 4: know nuts. They were really mobilized, you know, like these

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Speaker 4: are the people who are like growing tomatoes at Ruby Bridges, Like,

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Speaker 4: you know, they're really politically motivated for the first time

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Speaker 4: because they're experiencing like a consequence for segregation.

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Speaker 3: And so this is when like Jerry Fowell.

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Speaker 4: And Ralph Reid and you know, James Dobson start sort

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Speaker 4: of coming forward and being more prominent. And then by

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Speaker 4: the sort of mid seventies to eighties, you had these

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Speaker 4: like savvy or political operators coming out and saying, hey, guys,

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Speaker 4: segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever is like, it's great

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Speaker 4: that it really fired y'all up, but it has sort

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Speaker 4: of a limited appeal.

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Speaker 5: And they shot George Wallace. It's over.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Like there's going to be a sailing on that,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of people think you suck. So why

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Speaker 4: are you getting on the ground on this new civil

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Speaker 4: rights struggle abortion where you can fight for the unborn

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Speaker 4: who conveniently will never disagree with you.

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Speaker 2: Right, their voices don't have to be centered here. We

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Speaker 2: can speak for them.

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Speaker 4: I mean, they're the most convenient political constituency in history.

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Speaker 2: Right because they're so innocent and you can't milkshake duck

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Speaker 2: a fetus.

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Speaker 5: He's not even here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he can't talk, but he's not gonna say shit.

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Speaker 4: So I mean that's like the very capsule history. And

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Speaker 4: then of course it becomes this idea of like the

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Speaker 4: moral majority and where the guardians of America's soul and

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Speaker 4: we're gonna get really weird about sex.

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Speaker 3: Also, it's just.

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Speaker 2: Like if you strip it all the way down to

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Speaker 2: the studs, Like the core of this is women are

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Speaker 2: bleeding to death in hospital parking lots because Gary Fowell

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Speaker 2: didn't want to pay his taxes or stop being racist.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that's not fair.

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Speaker 4: No, people sometimes like are a little skeptical when I'm like,

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Speaker 4: all of the hatreds are interconnected. But then you look

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Speaker 4: at like concrete historical examples of like this world historical

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Speaker 4: wave of misogyny. I mean, it's not that this population

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Speaker 4: wasn't like weird about sex or weird about women like.

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Speaker 5: To start with.

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Speaker 2: I mean maybe they would have gotten here a different way,

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Speaker 2: but that's how we got here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we got here by just like no, we will

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Speaker 4: pay taxes on our segregation academies. Bob Jones University's inter

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Speaker 4: racial dating ban is perfectly great, and we're gonna mobilize

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Speaker 4: about it. And so what you have then now is

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Speaker 4: just like fifty years of political lock staff because and

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Speaker 4: you see this.

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Speaker 3: In like other religious communities. I mean, like I know, like.

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Speaker 4: It's sort of notorious how much corruption slides by in

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Speaker 4: New York because like the that a communities vote as

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Speaker 4: a block, like it is very useful to have a

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Speaker 4: congregation that all votes the same way.

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Speaker 3: It's politically useful.

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Speaker 2: I mean, what other populations can you get together once

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Speaker 2: a week as a captive audience and speak to with

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Speaker 2: authority if you can mobilize those people. And that's what

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Speaker 2: Jerry Folwell saw, right, is like this is a great

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Speaker 2: way to get a lot of people to vote the

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Speaker 2: way I want them to vote.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know, the church has always been like

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Speaker 4: a really prominent institution in American civil society, especially as

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Speaker 4: the rest of sort of civil society has fallen away

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Speaker 4: and degraded. Like churches are some of the only social

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Speaker 4: outlets that Americans have. And what's interesting when you talk

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Speaker 4: to evangelicals and next evangelicals is just like being a

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Speaker 4: Republican is like part of their religious identity in a

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Speaker 4: major way. It's like this is how you vote, and

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Speaker 4: this is you know, how you dress, and this is

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Speaker 4: how you go to church and so on. But like

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Speaker 4: the idea of being a Democrat is like not only

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Speaker 4: you know, a little bit out of step with your community,

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Speaker 4: it's heretical.

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Speaker 5: I mean, that's how the demons get in.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, demoncrats, I mean, and like, yeah, it's stupid.

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Speaker 4: But it's also like half of the people saying demoncrats

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Speaker 4: like literally mean democrats are aligned with Lucifer.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's a point that I don't want

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Speaker 2: to get lost on the listener. This you know, this

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Speaker 2: idea that people literally have demons in them, that demons

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Speaker 2: are active in the world, that demons are motivating the

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Speaker 2: actions of their enemies.

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Speaker 5: It is real for them.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that to be derisive or you know,

384
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Speaker 2: it's real.

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Speaker 5: It's real.

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Speaker 2: It is an animating factor for a lot of these people.

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Speaker 2: And that's hard to wrap your mind around. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I struggle with the idea that that is real for them.

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Speaker 2: But like that's how you get things like satanic panic,

390
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Speaker 2: and we see echoes of satanic panic in this idea

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Speaker 2: of you know, groomers in kids' schools. They really have

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Speaker 2: this fundamental, like foundational belief in this, you know, whether

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Speaker 2: or not they're calling it demons, that the existence of

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Speaker 2: some sort of ontological evil that is coming for their children.

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Speaker 2: And like once you arrive at the place where, like

396
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Speaker 2: where you understand that that's real for them, their actions

397
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Speaker 2: make more sense. Like they're not behaving irrationally if you

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Speaker 2: if you truly believe that these things were happening, you'd

399
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Speaker 2: act crazy too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's really hard to get people to

401
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,119
Speaker 4: step outside their own worldviews and in both directions, right, Like,

402
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Speaker 4: I don't believe that demons are, you know, abroad in

403
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Speaker 4: the world and motivating like every element of political action

404
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Speaker 4: to someone who.

405
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Speaker 5: I'm starting to see them some places, but generally no.

406
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Speaker 4: To someone who does my viewpoint is incomprehensible and vice versa.

407
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Speaker 4: So I think part of I mean not that I'm

408
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Speaker 4: like one of those people that's like polarization is the

409
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Speaker 4: big problem, like you know, as opposed to anything with

410
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Speaker 4: like concrete policy, like you know where it's like, the

411
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Speaker 4: big problem is we all don't like each other enough.

412
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Speaker 4: And I'm like, no, the big problem is like people

413
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Speaker 4: are espousing policies that will cause deaths, and like also

414
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 4: that people like believe their political enemies are like literally

415
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Speaker 4: agents of Satan. I would say, is like a bigger

416
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 4: problem than polarization in the abstract. But yeah, I mean

417
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,120
Speaker 4: this this doctrine of sort of spiritual warfare, which if

418
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Speaker 4: you like google it, it's just like, oh, this is

419
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 4: the mindset and it's like you, the listener to it

420
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Speaker 4: could happen here, like you've been drafted into the spirit

421
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Speaker 4: war from like birth.

422
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Speaker 5: Congratulations, private, and.

423
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Speaker 4: You're probably in the side of the devil, so good job.

424
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Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know, like a lot of Americans

425
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Speaker 4: believe in angels and demons, and that's fine, but it's

426
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Speaker 4: like when that starts impinging on the political sphere in

427
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Speaker 4: a very serious way, It's like, how far would you

428
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Speaker 4: go if you believed your opponent was under the thrall

429
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Speaker 4: of like Satan, you would go pretty damn far's.

430
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Speaker 2: I mean, that's why you know clinic bombings were and

431
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Speaker 2: I guess are on the rise again, right, Like these

432
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Speaker 2: arsens of clinics. It's not like other kinds of crime

433
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Speaker 2: in my mind, right, It's not a crime of passion

434
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Speaker 2: or an interpersonal dispute. It is people who have been

435
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Speaker 2: motivated by this belief that this is a place where

436
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Speaker 2: a genocide is happening, that there's a holocaust going on

437
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 2: in there, that people are ripping you know, actual living

438
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Speaker 2: babies limb from limb, and if you really did believe that,

439
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 2: their actions make sense. And that's why it happens so often, right,

440
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 2: because these people are motivated by this belief that God

441
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 2: commands them to take this action.

442
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there's your dual element to that. I mean,

443
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 4: first of all, absolutely, yes, Like I've read some anti

444
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 4: abortion terror manuals speaking of extremely unpleasant research, and it's

445
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 4: just really like these people are murderers. It's mass murderers,

446
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 4: Like you're like killing Hitler, right.

447
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,360
Speaker 5: And wouldn't you wouldn't you kill baby Hitler exactly?

448
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 4: But poltical about baby Hitler in like a countrywide scale.

449
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 4: And when specific abortion doctors have been mentioned in right

450
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 4: wing media, those guys end up dead and that's not

451
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 4: a coincidence. So there's that element of it, which is

452
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 4: the majority of it.

453
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 3: It's huge.

454
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 4: But there's also this idea of demonic geography, where like

455
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 4: demons can possess sort of places like abortion clinics or

456
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 4: institutions like planned parenthood or even the Democratic Party, which

457
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 4: you know, I read a lot of demonology books like

458
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 4: Taxonomies of Demons. Pigs in the Parlor was this really

459
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 4: big hit in like the seventies, and it's been like

460
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 4: reissued and reissued and millions of copies, and it's just like,

461
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 4: on one level, it's really compelling because it's like are

462
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 4: you tired, are you sad? Are you feeling clumsy? Do

463
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 4: you have like persistent stomach aches? It's demons and here's

464
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 4: how you deal with that. And like, in a country

465
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 4: with shitty healthcare, I can totally see why someone who's

466
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 4: like really depressed might go to like an exorcist or

467
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 4: a deliverance minister, which is the Protestant.

468
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 5: If you'll try anything, and this guy's going to do

469
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 5: it for free.

470
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 4: I watched so many videos of deliverance ministers doing their thing,

471
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 4: and it's like crazy. It's like people, you know, are

472
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 4: just like sitting there and they're like people praying over

473
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 4: them and screaming in their face, like and they wind

474
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 4: up vomiting and crying and it's all very like intense.

475
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 4: And you know, if you think about it from a

476
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 4: placebo effect perspective for like one second, you're like, obviously

477
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 4: this person would feel a weightlifted from them they've had

478
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 4: this ecstatic experience.

479
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 3: And this isn't the majority of it.

480
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 4: This is about fourteen percent of America identifies this as

481
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 4: white evangelics, so many Protestants and still so many people

482
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 4: because people keep asking me, like how many people really

483
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 4: believe shit like this, and I'm like, well, about eighty

484
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 4: to ninety percent of like people who identify as white

485
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 4: Evangelical Protestants espows most of these beliefs.

486
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 5: So that's like third, that's like thirty million people.

487
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And then you add in the Catholic.

488
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 5: Right, which is getting weirder every day.

489
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, Jdvans, I hate women exist to reproduce breede you

490
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 4: filthy now. But like even beyond the adult Catholic convert

491
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 4: style weirdness, like right wing Catholics are an integral part

492
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 4: of the Christian right, like Amy Cony Barrett, you know

493
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 4: antonin Scalia, that kind of thing. That's another bunch of millions.

494
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 4: So this reactionary force has like numerically significant constituency. On

495
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 4: the other hand, it definitely punches way above its weight

496
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 4: in terms of right.

497
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 2: They have an outsized influence of both you know, on

498
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,880
Speaker 2: the legislative floor and when it comes to you know,

499
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: who's racking up the most bodies.

500
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, And also even like the culture wars right, like

501
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 4: the sort of loudest culture warriors tend to at least

502
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 4: come from like a background of I'm speaking for God

503
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 4: or Christ is king or whatever it is, Like how

504
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 4: many times have you and I encountered that an extremist

505
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 4: contacts But also like the sort of more mainstream me,

506
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 4: what the fuck the mainstream is? I don't know, it's

507
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 4: full of piss, But like the more mainstream, like Christian grifter, Right,

508
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 4: they come from this. I'm speaking from my faith. These

509
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 4: are my religious principles. But like it is worth noting

510
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 4: again just to rewind in our conversation. But like the

511
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 4: full concept of religious liberty and religious freedom absolutely was

512
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 4: like an ad slogan coined in the seventies around segregation.

513
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 2: Right, religious freedom to do what? I mean, it's like

514
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: states rights, states rights.

515
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 5: To do what?

516
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, like you answer the question, Yeah, it's religious

517
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 4: freedom to have segregated schools, is the answer to that.

518
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 2: And you still see echoes of that with either still

519
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 2: religious schools that can't accept federal grant money because they

520
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 2: don't let students be gay, right, Like it's not racial

521
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 2: segregation anymore, but they are refusing to admit gay students,

522
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 2: and that is a violation of federal civil rights law.

523
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that's where I mean, that's where that slogan started.

524
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 4: And then it's blossomed to clue basically like a gay

525
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 4: person came into my shop.

526
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 5: Except they didn't, right, I know, there's no standing, right,

527
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 5: Like that whole case was built a lie. Whatever.

528
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 4: That's yeah, it's like and the standing in the Supreme

529
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 4: Court is so ridiculous. This I mean, in many ways,

530
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 4: this Supreme Court is the culmination and embodiment and of

531
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 4: botheosis of like Christian right theocracy, because you have these

532
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 4: like absolutely batshit religious zealots, I mean Amy Cony Barrett

533
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 4: is like from a cult, and in this unaccountable body,

534
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 4: they're passing unpopular theocratic principles that the majority of the

535
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 4: American public uh disagrees with. But like specifically, what they

536
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 4: are trying to enact and what they are what they

537
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 4: are enacting is this theocratic agenda where like the government

538
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 4: is in your bedroom, the government is in your doctor's office,

539
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 4: like the government is sniffing your panties, and it's it's

540
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 4: gross and it's upsetting and fundamentally, like theocracies are just

541
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 4: very famous all up in your junk, Like they're obsessed

542
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 4: with like controlling and censoring sexuality of all kinds of

543
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 4: a particularly female sexuality and queer sexuality, like snuff those out.

544
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 4: And so that's part of the reason why so many

545
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 4: abortion arguments, Like first of all, you have the like

546
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 4: the you're murdering this cluster of cells, which is a

547
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 4: full human baby, Like do you remember that article in

548
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 4: the Guardian A couple of years ago that like showed

549
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 4: the actual size of like fetuses at various stages of development,

550
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 4: and it was like they were just like so little,

551
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 4: like these little like little fingernails.

552
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it doesn't look like a tiny baby doll.

553
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 2: That's just very small.

554
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, it's not like a mini baby like it

555
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 4: like tides of Gore. It's like literally like a tiny

556
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 4: cluster of cells. So the anti abortion propaganda, like, you

557
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 4: are not immune to propaganda. It has like wormed its

558
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 4: way into the popular consciousness just by virtue of its

559
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 4: ubiquity and constant repetition being the key to successful propaganda.

560
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 4: But so many of these arguments, in addition to this

561
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 4: abortion is murder stuff is also just like you should

562
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 4: have kept your legs closed.

563
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 5: Right, This is a this is a consequence God did

564
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 5: this to you.

565
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like sex for your sins immortal sin, and sex

566
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 4: should be punished, and I.

567
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 5: They must be doing it wrong.

568
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 4: Like I'm like, why do you want sex to have

569
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:29,959
Speaker 4: consequences and be punished? The like intensity of the misogyny

570
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 4: around purity culture is so intense.

571
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you, you know, about the experience

572
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 2: of writing the book, right, so you know your first book,

573
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: Culture Warlords, is traumatizing for you to craft, right, because

574
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 2: you had to spend so much time in these digital

575
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 2: spaces in some in some cases physical spaces with you know,

576
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 2: neo Nazis, four Chen guys, you know, aspiring terrorists, and

577
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: so that's traumatic to experience, you know, But largely that

578
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 2: experience was alone, like at your computer screen, sort of

579
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 2: consuming this content that was eroding your soul. But the

580
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: second half of this book is about child abuse, right,

581
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 2: And like you interviewed people who grew up in this

582
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: movement about their lives, about their husband's raping them and

583
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: their parents beating them as children, and like, how did

584
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: those experiences compare? And like what was that? How, I mean,

585
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 2: how did you prepare to do that? I don't know

586
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 2: even know how it would begin to do that with care.

587
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 4: I mean, I think my goal going in is like

588
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 4: I'm not going to betray you, Like that was my

589
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 4: guiding ethos of just like I view like your trust

590
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 4: in me as a sacred thing, not like sacred in

591
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 4: any formal religious sense, but just like you know, I

592
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 4: view your trust in me as something that I hold

593
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 4: very dearly.

594
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 3: It's very important.

595
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 4: I'm going to treat your pain with as much gentleness

596
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 4: and respect as I can. And like, I interviewed over

597
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 4: one hundred people largely about their experiences with experiencing child

598
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 4: abuse and an evangelical milieu as is laid out with

599
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 4: painstaking instructions and like all of these parenting manuals. Actually,

600
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 4: like I think reading the parenting manuals was even more

601
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 4: disturbing than talking to people, because like people were like,

602
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 4: this fucked me up and it was wrong. And then

603
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 4: these books are like, no, you must beat your toddler

604
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 4: because Jesus says so, and like here's exactly how to

605
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 4: beat your toddler, and here's what you should use to

606
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,719
Speaker 4: beat your toddler, and here's the like supremely fucked up,

607
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 4: like weird ritual that we prescribe. And then like reading

608
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 4: those in tandem with like like the accounts of people

609
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,719
Speaker 4: who were like this specific thing like sucked me up

610
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 4: for life and really messed up my ability to have

611
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 4: like intimacy or self confidence or whatever.

612
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 3: All of that stuff. I mean, it was tough. I

613
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 3: definitely took more time, Like I wrote Culture Warlords in

614
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 3: nine months, so I was like totally immersed constantly.

615
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 5: It just like didn't come up Forrayer.

616
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 4: Yeah at all, and this one I was like, I

617
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 4: need a little more time, guys, Like I wrote it over,

618
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 4: you know, almost three years. I also pretentiously started calling

619
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 4: this philosophy Guarding your Heart because I really got lost

620
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 4: in the sauce with culture warlords, Like I was in

621
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 4: a dark place while I was writing it, and afterwards

622
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 4: I was also the like it came out in mid COVID,

623
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 4: so that didn't help either. But uh, it was a real,

624
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 4: really rough experience with this. I was like, I'm going

625
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 4: to keep writing. I'm gonna write about sandwiches all the

626
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 4: way through. I'm going to like make sure I have

627
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 4: friendships and stuff that's grounding me. And I think consciously

628
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 4: having that at the forefront of my mind really helped. That.

629
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 4: Being said, like what was really encouraging was all of

630
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 4: these people who had experienced this sort of child abuse

631
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 4: industrial complex in the evangelical community, where like, we really

632
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 4: value that someone wants to hear what we have to say,

633
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 4: and also that it's someone from outside the community is

634
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 4: like paying attention and thinks this is important, which is

635
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 4: not to denigrate like expangelical voices, but more to say

636
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 4: that like, I guess there's a certain validation when someone

637
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 4: who's like not didn't grow up in your corner of religiosity,

638
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 4: dark corner.

639
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 5: And sort of bringing it to an outside audience too.

640
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: I think a lot of expangelicals their audience is largely

641
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: their fellow expangelicals exactly.

642
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 4: And I'm someone who, like I grew up as a Jew,

643
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 4: and I'm like, yeah, this sucked, this is terrible. I'm

644
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 4: like appalled reading like to Train Up a Child by

645
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 4: the Pearls or The Strong Willed Child by jam Stobson, which, like,

646
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 4: to be clear, the strong willed child is a bad thing.

647
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 3: It's a bad thing to have a child with us.

648
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: You have to beat it out of them, sure, literally,

649
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: And I'm going into this in the wild recently. I

650
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 2: don't know if you have come across this guy online.

651
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 2: Do you know the nineties movie The Little Rascals.

652
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 4: Oh my god, alf from The Little Rascals turns out

653
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 4: to be Able Falfa.

654
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 2: The guy who played Alfalfa's name is Bug Hall. He

655
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 2: like really like I don't, got into a sort of

656
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: main character situation over some posts about how he beats

657
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: his infants.

658
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 5: He beats infants because that's I guess a good way

659
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 5: to raise a baby.

660
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. Also I think he's homeless.

661
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 5: No, he's a surf.

662
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 2: Oh he's in a voluntary serfdom arrangement.

663
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:38,240
Speaker 4: Oh my god. Okay, well he sounds like a big rascal. Yeah,

664
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 4: he's continued that trajectory of rascaledom. But don't beat your kids.

665
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 4: I mean, I will also say the reason why this

666
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 4: book focuses so much on child abuse, which, like I

667
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 4: encountered some some haters and losers and doubters along the

668
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 4: way who were like, why are you focused so much

669
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 4: on child abuse? And I was like, there are a

670
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 4: lot of different theories about like how authoritarianism developed, but

671
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 4: one of the big ones is focusing on the pedagogy

672
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 4: in authoritarian societies, the societies that become authoritarian, you know,

673
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 4: evolve from democracy to authoritarianism, and beating the shit out

674
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 4: of people from when they're in infancy and particularly when

675
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 4: they display disobedience or ask why, or you know.

676
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 3: Just deviate from expectations.

677
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 5: It's a great way to make an obedient brown shirt.

678
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, Like this is a recipe for future authoritarians.

679
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 4: Like the people I spoke to had sort of broken

680
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 4: away largely from this culture. But many of the sort

681
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 4: of most obedient soldiers in the Army's Army of God

682
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,359
Speaker 4: like are that way. Because again, I can't overemphasize how

683
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 4: much these parenting manuals, which spanned from like nineteen seventy

684
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 4: to twenty fifteen, these texts, you know, the dates that

685
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 4: they were published, emphasize having an obedient child. What you

686
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 4: want is not like a child who's kind or curious

687
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 4: or thoughtful or smart. It's obedient, instantly obedient. Don't make

688
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 4: me count to three is the title of one of

689
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 4: the books. And like, what you're creating is a culture

690
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 4: of people who a like empathize with the aggressor at

691
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 4: all times. So hence this admiration for strength and even

692
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 4: admiration for cruelty, people who are trained to obey and

693
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 4: obey without question, and people who are very acclimated to

694
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 4: the use of violence.

695
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 5: I mean, you're doing fascism in the home, right.

696
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 4: So the the author, like Alice Miller, the author of

697
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 4: the book For Your Own Good, lays out a pretty

698
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 4: she was also a Holocaust survivor. She lays out a

699
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 4: pretty strong case for like, you know, early twentieth century

700
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 4: Germany having this poisonous pedagogy that also involved beating the

701
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 4: shit out of your kids until I.

702
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 5: Was illegal to love your children, Yeah.

703
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 4: To obey you, and how basically this is how you

704
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 4: make a torture. And the book is called or your

705
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 4: Own Good And yeah, I mean I really think it

706
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 4: is like under valued in politics, Like how much this

707
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 4: culture of corporal punishment, which is yeah, Americans have like

708
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 4: moved away from universal approval of corporal punishment, we're still

709
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 4: like a lot higher than other Western democracies in that regard.

710
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 4: And like on a national level, we're the only country

711
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 4: in the world that hasn't ratified the UN Conventions on

712
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 4: the Rights of a Child, which include like having a

713
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 4: name and like not being beaten and not being thrown

714
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 4: into like ju the solitary.

715
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 2: Oh well, that's why America can't touch that. We need

716
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 2: to incarcerate the children.

717
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, the children, you're in for the cells.

718
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 4: But it's also just like a lot of it actually

719
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 4: was like worries that like evangelicals like would sort of

720
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 4: object to the interference in their it's.

721
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 2: An infringement on their religious freedom to bet the shit

722
00:38:59,440 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 2: out of baby.

723
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they're parental rights, which is another buzzword of this, this.

724
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 5: Movement, parental rights is a red flag for me.

725
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, no, I hear parental rights, and I think

726
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 4: you want to beat the shit out of your kids.

727
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 5: You don't want your children to learn science.

728
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, you at a homeschool and under educate your kids

729
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 4: or miseducate.

730
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 2: You want to cause a measle's outbreak exactly.

731
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 4: But that's like for us because we're weirdos. We're like

732
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 4: obsessively clued into this stuff. If you're not, Like, parental

733
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,959
Speaker 4: rights is like religious freedom is, Like it sounds good, Yeah,

734
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 4: it's an effective marketing slogan, but like what it means

735
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 4: is like we're going to show up at the school

736
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 4: board and yell about how I mean. And Trump is

737
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 4: like bought into this obviously because he knows where his

738
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 4: bread is buttered. He has savvy Like he's like, you guys,

739
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 4: do the policy. But like his current parental rights based

740
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 4: his biggest policy that he's advocating is like denying federal

741
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 4: funding to any school with any vaccine a mandate, which

742
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 4: is basically just like make measles great again, like bring

743
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 4: back diphtheria. I think, like, yes, the MAGA movement is

744
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 4: for of the the efflorescence, the apotheosis of this steadily

745
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 4: building power, but like there's also just like fifty years

746
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 4: of power building behind it. And like even if Trump

747
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 4: was defeated at the federal level, which like I profoundly

748
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 4: hope he is, sorry to come out as like a

749
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 4: you know, partisan, a voter, like a hashtag a voter,

750
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,240
Speaker 4: but like I think it would be just a nauseatingly

751
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 4: it's a horrifying thought that he I mean, first of all,

752
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 4: you would absolutely enact every item in this theocratic agenda,

753
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 4: starting with a national abortion band like that would happen

754
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 4: in the first hundred days, I think, which would just

755
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 4: functionally plunge American women into like a very very dark

756
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 4: septocemic nightmare.

757
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, the dark place that we're going as a coffin.

758
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:01,280
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah. Yeah.

759
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 4: But even should he lose, which you know hope, there's

760
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 4: still twenty two states where abortion is outlawed or severely restricted,

761
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 4: and these places are becoming care deserts. Like medical residents.

762
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 4: My extremely sexy partner is a medical resident, so I

763
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 4: know more about the state of medicine than I otherwise would.

764
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 4: But like residents don't want to do their residencies in

765
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 4: states with abortion restrictions, they're like.

766
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 2: Right, given a choice, gynecological providers just aren't practicing there anymore.

767
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 2: Like even if you know, even your primary focus is

768
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 2: not abortions, or even if your primary focus is not

769
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: you know, pregnancy care, they just don't want to They

770
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:46,919
Speaker 2: just don't want to work there.

771
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 4: Well, it's also first of all that, but second of all,

772
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 4: it's like, if you're in the er, you're going to

773
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 4: experience pregnancy losss It happens in one in five pregnancy, right.

774
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 2: So they're choosing to work in states where they're not

775
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 2: going to go to jail for doing medicine.

776
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like they don't to incur the moral injury of

777
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 4: not being able to apply the standard of care to

778
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 4: patients in extremely common situations such as incomplete miscarriage and

779
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 4: you know, pregnancy loss, whether you know self induced or

780
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 4: just like miscarriage is super common and nobody talks about it.

781
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 2: It's more common than we an Ectopic pregnancy is so

782
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 2: much more common than people realize. Like there are so

783
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 2: many things that your body can do to betray you

784
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 2: that you need a doctor help.

785
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 3: With just ordinary pregnancy.

786
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 2: And then after the baby is born, then your lustrous

787
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 2: hair all falls out.

788
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, like ordinary pregnancy is so fraught with like weird

789
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 4: body horror. Like, but anyway, that's besides the point.

790
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 3: Whatever.

791
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 4: The point is someone presents with abdominal pain in the

792
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 4: er and it turns out to be an ectopic pregnancy,

793
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 4: and like you can't do standard of care like dilation

794
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 4: and cure tash procedures without checking with the hospital lawyer.

795
00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 4: Like that is a really bad position a care provider

796
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 4: to be in. So when you have these fundamentally unscientific laws,

797
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 4: right that are produced by people who don't know anything

798
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 4: about pregnancy and are like very intentionally ambiguous so that

799
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 4: cautious institutions will sort of interpret them at maximally interpret them,

800
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 4: Like the life of the mother, how dead does she

801
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 4: have to be?

802
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 5: First?

803
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, she has to be almost dead, right, and then

804
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,919
Speaker 3: sometimes she winds up dying because almost dead is tough

805
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 3: to judge, Like, it just winds up this grotesque sort

806
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 3: of farce of medicine, and very directly like residents don't

807
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 3: want to train, doctors don't want to practice in these places,

808
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 3: and so you.

809
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 2: Know, right, so this ends up killing more people than

810
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 2: just the ones hemorrhaging in the parking lot. There are

811
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 2: people who have completely unrelated problems who are now unable

812
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 2: to access unrelated kinds of care because the doctors just aren't.

813
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 4: There, yeah, Or people who have ordinary wanted pregnancies who

814
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 4: can't access neonatal care, who have to drive hours and

815
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 4: hours and hours to like get checkups, like you know,

816
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 4: I mean, human reproduction is like a pretty major part

817
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:08,959
Speaker 4: of like life.

818
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 5: And a lot of people are doing it.

819
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, like it's sort of how you know, it's just

820
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 4: people do it all the time, and like not being

821
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 4: able to access medical care around like the entire spectrum

822
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,399
Speaker 4: of like reproduction is pretty catastrophic. But yeah, it also

823
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 4: impacts all the people not engaging in reproduction at this

824
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 4: moment in time, like doctors who are just like fuck this,

825
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 4: I'm not wearing out an er in Tennessee, you know,

826
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 4: because I want to be able to treat patients.

827
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:37,479
Speaker 5: Without a lawyer in the room.

828
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly, I mean.

829
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 4: And then there are doctors who are bigots and doctors

830
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 4: who are happily on board with abortion bands. But like,

831
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 4: do you want that to be the only doctor in

832
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 4: your county?

833
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 3: I don't think so.

834
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 4: You know, it's just it's a really grim situation. And

835
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 4: I just like, I'm such an absolutist about bodily autonomy.

836
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 4: It's like, if you don't own your body, you are

837
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 4: not a full citizen, period of story. Like if if

838
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 4: a major organ in your body is treated as a

839
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 4: controlled substance, like, you are not a full and equal

840
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 4: citizen with rights, which I would like to be.

841
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 5: I aspire to it.

842
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I want to ask you one more question

843
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 2: about your book, and I will let you go.

844
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:18,879
Speaker 5: I told you that I wouldn't keep you very long,

845
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 5: and I lied.

846
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 4: But it's like, it's just because I like talking to you.

847
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,240
Speaker 4: So it's I think I've done the majority of the topics.

848
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 3: You can't.

849
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 4: You can't be like, oh, it's about your book, which

850
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 4: you should buy listeners.

851
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 5: Pre order it now wherever you buy your books.

852
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 4: And if you like the delcent tones of my voice,

853
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 4: which are I shouldn't have you to narrate in my

854
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 4: audience books, you brush that passage.

855
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,879
Speaker 5: I'm a professional talker now, yeah.

856
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well I narrated the audio book and then was

857
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 4: like why did I write such complicated sentences?

858
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 3: Afterwards?

859
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 2: So now that I read my own writing like on

860
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 2: a regular basis out loud, which is new for me, right,

861
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 2: you know, I have my podcast and I'm writing my

862
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 2: little scripts and then I'm reading into a little microphone.

863
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 2: Now that I struggle with that. I noticed while I

864
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: was reading your book that oh I wouldn't be able

865
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 2: to read this out loud. I know, where would I breathe?

866
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 2: I know it was because I write like that too,

867
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 2: and it's something I'm like really grappling with right now.

868
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 4: She's like, call me ten clubs, Talia. I'm like, ah, fuck,

869
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 4: this sentence is this paragraph? This sentence is a paragraph.

870
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 4: Stop it.

871
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 2: Like I really really lost, really lost momentum on that one.

872
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, but like I managed to get through it.

873
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 4: And if you if you enjoy the dulcae sounds of

874
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 4: my voice, you can hear it for like, I don't know,

875
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 4: eight hours or whatever.

876
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 3: I assume weird being like listen to my voice.

877
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 5: But you know, invite me into your mind.

878
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I do think it's nice as an author

879
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 4: to read your audiobook because I can like get mad

880
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 4: and like, you know, emphasize stuff that I think is important.

881
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 3: And also I'm a.

882
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 4: Theater kid, like, like I don't have many opportunities to

883
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 4: perform and it is a performance and it's it's fun.

884
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 5: But yeah, and that comes out the same time as

885
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 5: the physical book.

886
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 4: Yes, it comes out audio ebook, physical book with a

887
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 4: cool snake on it.

888
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, Oh, I guess this is an audio medium.

889
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 2: The listener can't see that I'm showing the cool cover.

890
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's got a cool snake, a red and black

891
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 4: snake on the cover. I've named him Rocco, but he

892
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 4: has a cross for a tongue. If you're looking for

893
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,320
Speaker 4: a book to give to the metal head in your life,

894
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 4: oh yeah, it's pretty metal. Metal heads, atheists, degenerates.

895
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,720
Speaker 3: Everyone is going to love this book.

896
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 5: It's perfect for everyone.

897
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 4: And if you're light on cash flow, want it for

898
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 4: supporting India authors is ask your library to stock it

899
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 4: or your local bookstore because library orders are really important

900
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 4: and you can just like put in a request in

901
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 4: your library system and that is super helpful.

902
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,720
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, everybody go to your library's website right now

903
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 2: and request that they purchase a copy of Wild Faith

904
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 2: by Talia Lavin.

905
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, talywhere else can people find you online?

906
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 3: So I have a newsletter. It's on button down.

907
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,439
Speaker 4: I left some stack because they were like We're never

908
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 4: gonna sensor Nazis, but we will sensor porn. And I

909
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 4: was like, I don't like your priorities, so I left

910
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 4: for button Down. So it's buttondown dot com slash the

911
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 4: sword in the sandwich, or if you just google the

912
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 4: sword and the sandwich comes up. Most Tuesdays I write

913
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 4: about like the horrific state of politics, et cetera, And

914
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 4: then Fridays I write an essay about a different sandwich

915
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 4: on Wikipedia's list of notable sandwiches, and so far I've

916
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 4: written one hundred and eleven sandwiches.

917
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 2: The sandwich content alone is worth the price of admission.

918
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 2: You need to find out about these sandwiches.

919
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 3: I mean it just and I get really deep into

920
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 3: the history and the provenance and like I'm like, ah,

921
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,799
Speaker 3: the shifting of peoples led to this sandwich, So I

922
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 3: get really deep into it. And then you.

923
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 4: Can also find me on Blue Sky, where I most

924
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 4: of the time now because Twitter is just like robots

925
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,959
Speaker 4: and Nazis and Nazi robots, where I'm at swords Jew.

926
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 4: I'm still on Vishy Twitter as Mobi Dick Energy. And

927
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 4: you know, if you want to say hi or invite

928
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 4: me to speak at your synagogue or bookstore I'm at

929
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 4: Talia l even writes at gmail dot com. Or church

930
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 4: if you're like cool. Yeah, if it's like a cool church, yeah,

931
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 4: you show up and they pass you a snake.

932
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Oh god, I didn't do enough speaking at

933
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:37,879
Speaker 3: times for this book.

934
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 2: Well, Tally, thank you so much for coming on today again.

935
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 2: The book is Wild Faith by Talia Lavin, and you

936
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 2: can pre order it now wherever books are sold, and

937
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 2: you should request it from your library.

938
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, we stand civic services, and I'm a huge fan

939
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 4: of public libraries and also of Molly Conger. So thanks

940
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 4: for having me on and take care, Bye bye.

941
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 5: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

942
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

943
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

944
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

945
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 3: You listen to podcasts.

946
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 1: You can now find sources for It Could Happen here

947
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.