WEBVTT - 1. The Mission 0:00:01.639 --> 0:00:03.880 Well, now I'm putting my trousers on. I found a 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.080 red cap which I've put in the back pocket of 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:11.039 my blue jeans, like the one in the USA album cover, 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:15.280 and I lit it up and it is receiving visting 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.239 is what I'm flagging. Oh, I need to put my 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.160 willy in which is some socks stuff and down my 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:26.400 pants and Jesse. I'm a thirty one year old audio 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:30.800 producer and youth worker from London. Last year I started 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:37.320 doing drag as Butch Springsteen you're doing in the dressing 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:40.440 room of the RVC the Rowbox was having which is 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:44.600 London's oldest queer venner. I think it's one of the 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:49.000 oldest anyway. This is a recording of me backstage getting 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:51.800 ready for one of my first ever performances at a 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:55.279 night called Kings of Clubs run by drag king Frankie Sinatra. 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:59.000 And then my tool belt goes on, Aspana goes on 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:01.120 the tool belt and and I tucked the tool belt 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:06.760 into the genes because my clothes off later is there's 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:11.200 a fun reveal. Where I grew up in London. The 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.319 only people who'd heard of Bruce Springsteen were my friend's dads. 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:18.280 Bruce is usually described as a rock or Americani musician, 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:21.520 but each album's different. You've got hints of brock and 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:25.160 Roll or eighties synth pop, emotional man with a guitar. 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:30.880 It's always reminded me of country. Not the tunes necessarily, 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:35.000 but the way Bruce tells stories. His songs have these big, 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:38.280 grand narratives, tales of characters that Bruce has made up 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:43.399 or based on people in this life. I discovered Bruce 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.280 Springsteen when I was twenty. I knew who he was 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:49.279 before then, but that's the first time I properly heard 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:53.640 his music. It went straight into my insides, pulling out 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:56.680 feelings that I didn't even realize I had yet, giving 0:01:56.680 --> 0:02:05.120 them new words as they were held up to the life. 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:10.639 I want to be more masking so I look like 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.320 like Bruce. So I'm putting like a big white line 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.040 down my nose to trying to make my nose look 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:18.720 as wide as possible, and I'm going to try and 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:22.680 make my like jaw look as square as possible. Opposite 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:26.280 of what drag queens do is what drag kings do. 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:26.760 Basically. 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:32.040 Yeah, I feel like sometimes people go through phases when 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:34.520 they're like teenagers of being really good at putting makeup on, 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:38.760 and I always felt like I was trying to do 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:40.400 drag when I put on because I was just so 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:41.960 bad at it. And sometimes I've come on to school 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:45.400 with like, you know, like misscar rolled down your face. 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:46.000 It's that. 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:51.960 Bruce Binstein has had many looks over the years. The 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.840 one I'm currently getting into is inspired by his eighties 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:59.000 era blue denim but hugging tight jeans, white T shirt 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:02.040 with a denim vest over the top. In the eighties, 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:05.280 he had this mop of curly dark brown hair, often 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:09.680 pushed back with a little bandanna. Later on, I'll strip 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:13.040 down to a denhim harness. I made myself that's more 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:17.720 Butcher Springsteen than Bruce Springsteen. But a boy can dream. 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:19.880 I'm really sweaty as well, so it looks like a 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:23.760 salk in brunt of my face. Each act I do 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:26.240 is based on a different Bruce song. In the one 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:28.280 I'm about to do, I go on stage with a 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.840 huge cardboard red cut explain that she's my girlfriend and 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.640 she's upset with me. It turns out she's annoyed with 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:36.840 me because I don't go down on her properly. So 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.120 I learned how to do it on stage while singing 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:43.000 Bruce's I'm Going Down. It's fun and silly and campy. 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.960 I've always loved watching drag, but I never thought I'd 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:50.040 be able to get up on stage in front of 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:52.000 a crowded room doing it myself. 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:53.600 Please welcome to. 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:55.839 The stage, Butch Springy. 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:13.960 I'm I'm an internationally famous musician in New Jersey, but 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:15.880 I can only do a Southern American accents. 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:16.840 You've just got to do with it. 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:22.839 This is because the bus belongs to us. It's a 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:26.720 series that has truly been years in the making when 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:29.360 my love for Bruce Springsteen takes me to places I 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:33.160 never would have expected. Who were it best, Bruce Springsteen 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:34.080 or Katie Lang. 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.640 It's like you, Squinn and everyone can be a butch. 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.159 Why does sad likes love Nebraska? On my dating profile, 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:43.880 I had something about being a fan of Nebraska area. 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:48.320 Bruce Springsteen is Bruce, in fact the ultimate Emo. It 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:50.719 was with Bruce's music that when I first arrived, I 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:55.400 thought I'd assimilate into straight culture, which is such a joke. Now, considering, 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:03.880 let's start at the beginning. 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:06.760 Okay, so I'm sitting in my bedroom. 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:11.240 I'm about to start making another issue of Caution More, 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.479 which is like my little diary sine. 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.800 This is Holly Cassio. They make a zine series called 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.479 Me and Bruce, all about how a northern working class 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.839 DIY punk fell in love with Bruce Springsteen. They also 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:25.840 made a graphic memoor called Looking for Bruce, charting their 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.200 spiritual pilgrimage to New Jersey to somehow find the real 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:32.479 Bruce Springsteen. Holly is the key to this whole thing. 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:34.800 I thought this would be really nice time to message 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:38.640 you and reflecting on my teenage queer love of Bruce Springsteen, 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:41.919 because this is exactly how it started. Me sitting on 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:45.600 the floor surrounded by Blood's papers and a long arm 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.240 Stappler and I have no idea where on earth my 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:52.120 pritt stick is, so that's where I'm taking a moment 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:54.440 to message you instead of looking for a pritt stick. 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:57.680 He I'm currently sitting in my room. 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:01.320 I have a picture of my all of one of 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:03.200 Bruce and Claracs's famous kisses. 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:04.560 I'd like backed. 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:08.400 Onto some pink tissue paper and then put it in 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:11.880 a white frame, and it's six on my wall. Back 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:13.880 in twenty twenty, I was introduced to Holly by a 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:16.359 friend of mine. He was like, you're queer. You like 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:19.880 Bruce Springsteen, you would like Colly Fassio. It was in 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:22.240 the midst of a COVID nineteen lockdown, so our first 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:24.440 communication was through emails and voice notes. 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:31.920 My memory is being like thirteen fourteen and being queer 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:36.280 but not out. It's the nineties, so the Internet exists, 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:38.680 but it doesn't exist in like everyone's house does, and 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:42.040 it definitely doesn't exist in our house. Section twenty eight exists, 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:46.200 so no one talks about being queer or feeling different 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:49.159 at school like Section twenty eight just means that no 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:50.560 one talks about that kind of thing. 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.200 For anyone who hasn't heard of Section twenty eight. It 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:57.000 was a UK law passed under Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:01.080 in nineteen eighty eight which prohibited the quote promotion of 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:05.840 homosexuality by local authorities. This led to loads of teachers 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:08.680 and students feeling unable to come out in school, let 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:15.960 alone provide or access healthy LGBT sex education. The law 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:19.200 only started being repealed in England in two thousand and three, 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:22.720 so when I was eleven, but for Holly, all of 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:25.640 their schooling was under Section twenty eight not a great 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:27.440 time to be a queer teenager in the UK. 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:30.920 I was really badly bullied. 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.960 I didn't have any friends, and so for me, zines 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:41.440 were a lifeline. They were like this physical, tangible dispatch 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:44.760 from out there somewhere, from. 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:47.200 A bunch of queers saying, there's more of us out here. 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:50.120 You're not alone, like this stuff happening, you can be 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:50.760 part of this. 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:58.160 I was quite a repressed teenager, I would say, in 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:03.520 terms of my sexual and gender. I remember I came 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:05.440 up to my friends as bisexual when I was twelve 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:09.040 at a sleepover. Everyone was saying, what percentage gay are you? 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:12.720 And everyone was like, oh, maybe I'm like one cent gay, 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.000 and I was like, I think I'm fifty percent gay and. 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:18.160 Everyone was like, no, you're not disgusting. 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:20.960 And I simply didn't talk about it or think about 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:21.800 it again until I was. 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:22.560 In my twenties. 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:25.480 You know how sports fans meet each other and they 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:28.640 have like three standard questions to like get the chat going, 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.199 like what team you support? Oh, so, how do you 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.240 feel about Black blavest performance this season? And then some 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:37.800 kind of joke that shows that they know things about 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:43.240 the sport. They're talking about Well, me and Holly did 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:46.080 the queer Bruce fan version of that. We swap our 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:47.720 queer Bruce origin stories. 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.080 I had two Bruce records. I had Start with the 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:55.480 Edge of Town email graphic, and I also had Bart 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.200 of the USA, also an email graphic, but like wrapped 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:01.840 up in the pretend to like a pop album. I 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:03.720 was making a zene and I was making a mixtape 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:07.080 for a friend, and I remember putting on Dancing in 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:09.640 the Dark onto a mixtape as like a novelty song. 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.520 I was like, Lol, won't this be funny putting on 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.320 this old dad music onto a mixtape. 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:18.679 So I've got Dancing in the Dark on the background. 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:23.479 I'm sitting on the floor and I'm making this zine 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:25.680 and it's like I'm hearing the song for the first time, 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:29.000 Like some of those lyrics just somehow hit me in 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:32.240 the gut in a way that hasn't happened before, and 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:33.760 I'm recognizing. 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:37.080 It as the queer anthem of loneliness than it is. 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:38.200 You know. 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.320 There's like lines like I want to change my clothes, 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:45.000 my hair, my face, Like tell me Bruce isn't queer 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.400 when he writes that line, tell me Bruce isn't staring 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:51.920 into reflection of himself, thinking about gender, thinking about how 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.240 no one else he knows looks like him, and how 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:57.600 he feels really alone and isolated. But the lyric that 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.000 for me always stood out, the lyric that made me 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:02.920 you just stop dead in my tracks, is there's a 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:07.200 line in that song that says, there's something happening somewhere, baby, 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:08.120 I just know that there is. 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:12.360 There is no encapsulation. 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:17.559 Of my lonely, lonely, small town queer teenage life than 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:18.240 that line. 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:20.960 It's really lonely. 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:24.520 I think the queer teenage experience, particularly in the nineties, 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.720 particularly during section twenty eight, particularly in a small town 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:32.040 in West Yorkshire, sadly, it was a very lonely experience. 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:35.240 And I remember hearing that line playing in the song 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:37.120 when I was making a scene and just thinking. 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:40.760 Oh, that's it. That's exactly how I feel. 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:44.320 That there's stuff happening out there, I'm just not part 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:47.559 of it yet is kind of enough to keep me going. 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:53.160 And I think that's where my lifelong obsession with Bruce 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:54.960 Springsteen kind of started. 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:03.880 My lifelong obsession with Bruce Springsteen started a bit later 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:08.559 than Holly's. I spent almost the entirety of my teenage years, 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:12.120 not allowing myself to think about my queerness. When I 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.839 was twenty, I moved to Canada for a year, and 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.320 in very classic baby queer fashion, I shaved my head 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.480 for the first time, unlocking lots of new feelings that 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:25.440 I'd been hiding away under my curls. And then I 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:29.199 went to visit my friend in Chicago, Jake, who's this 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:36.439 huge Bruce Springsteen fan. I remember we were cooking spaghetti carbonara, 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.760 and we were frying those like little weird lard ons 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:41.480 that you can mind America, and like frying it to 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:43.199 all the fat fed off and made them really crispy. 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.160 And we were doing that and listening to Bruce in 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:48.160 his kitchen, and he was telling me all the things 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.559 they loved about Bruce Springsteen. And the song, like, the 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:52.600 song that really got me was It's still one of 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:53.280 my favorite songs. 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:54.760 It's called Ain't Good Enough for You? 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:00.720 Ain't Good Enough for You. It's quite an up, cheeky 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.840 song from an album called The Promise, a compilation album 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:07.120 from twenty ten of previously unreleased songs recorded in the 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.920 late seventies. The character in the song is singing about 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:15.480 his girlfriend who can never be pleased. The chorus goes, 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:17.840 no matter what I do ain't good enough for you. 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:20.640 There's a bit in it where he lists how he 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:23.520 tried all the things people say you should do to 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:26.400 please a partner. He gets a job in sales, he 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:29.080 buys a fancy shirt, he gets the cholest record, buys 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:30.880 a book about love, and goes to her door with 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.480 a bunch of flowers, and still she says he's not 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.480 good enough. The feeling I related to in the song 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:42.199 was him doing all the quote right things that society 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:45.760 tells you to do, but it's still not working, which 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.520 is basically exactly how I was starting to feel about 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:52.040 my gender. I tried on so many different ways. Society 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.720 told me I could be a woman from very butch 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.920 to very fem from the loosest, most shapeless, don't notice 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:02.720 be closed to bripen hair and trainers, And listening to Bruce, 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.520 I was like, yeah, I get how it feels to 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:08.480 try all the different things and it's still somehow just 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:12.120 not be right. But I guess I didn't realize at 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.360 that point that you could just be trans And so 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:17.920 now obviously that makes not more sense. 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:22.199 So many of his songs are about. 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:27.040 Having a lot of feelings, being misunderstood, being in a 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.800 place where there aren't people like you, or people don't 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:34.360 understand you, and then needing or wanting escape. And that 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.280 was definitely the kind of angst I was feeling at 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:41.360 that time, and I've never really looked back. The end 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:45.360 of those voice notes sharing our Bruce Springsteen backstories was an. 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.880 Invitation, yeah, for me to make a podcast with you 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.000 about queerness and Bruce Springsteen. 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:55.400 Hello, Holly, Hello Jesse. Yeah, so you said yes, and 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:58.400 now you're my co host. Correct. So something that came 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.640 out of those first chats was how many queer Bruce fans? 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:01.920 You know? 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.280 I think you're maybe like the third queer Bruce fan 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.120 I ever met, But it turns out there's loads of us. 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:08.640 Yeah. 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:11.840 I also spent so many years thinking I'm the only 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:14.560 queer person to find meaning in the songs of this 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.839 kind of centuriest dad. But once I started making my 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:22.280 Bruce scenes, loads of people started reaching out, and you were, 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.200 by no means the first person to contact me, being like, 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:28.920 I love Bruce too. There's actually loads of us out there. 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:31.920 The more I found out there were loads of queers 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.640 who loved Bruce Bringsteen. The more questions I had, What 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.160 is it about Bruce? Why are we so obsessed with him? 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:39.920 And why don't people know that Bruce is loved by 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:40.560 queer people? 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:42.480 Me too, one hundred percent. 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:46.160 These questions are a huge part of my life, and 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.800 that's why we're putting our serious journalist hats on to 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:52.120 get to the bottom of Bruce's queer appeal. 0:14:52.960 --> 0:15:08.760 That's next, Jesse Holly, because the bus belongs to us. 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:15.240 We know from personal experience that other queer Bruce lovers 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.240 do exist. But I also know that a lot of 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.120 queer people react to my love of Bruce Springsteen with 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:23.440 confusion and surprise. 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:28.160 Yeah, meeting he is simply a rich, white, straight cist 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:31.880 man who was heavily associated with the American flag, one 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:33.960 of the least queer symbols known to man. 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.160 Either that or the Saint George Flagg or English flag, 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:40.920 which I basically honestly at fascist rallies or painted onto 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.080 the faces of drunk, scary men at the football. 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.480 Yeah, that kind of nationalist pride is just not giving queer. 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.360 Bruce Brasteen is not someone you'd think of if someone 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:53.600 asks you to list celebrities loved by the queer community. 0:15:55.520 --> 0:16:00.760 Madonna Sinjan, when Marikerry, I really really, when I was young, 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:08.640 particularly looked to largely CIS female straight women to sort 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.080 of narrate the big emotions I was feeling, which was 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:13.560 like deep last heartbreak, loneliness. 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.120 Even if Bruce feels niche or unconventional as an object 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:20.400 of queer fandom, queer people have a long history of 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:21.560 standing celebrities. 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:25.359 Hello, my name is Tom russ. 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:28.560 Mussen, and my friend Tom is one of them. They're 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:33.200 a pop star, composer, writer, sex columnist, former drag queen, and. 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:36.520 Proud dog mom to Celendon, who you can hear snoring 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:38.200 on my lap right now. 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:41.920 Selene lay sleeping on Tom's lap for the entire interview. 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:45.960 She's such a joy. 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.320 Honestly, having a dog called Selene feels to me like 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:51.880 it gives Tom the right credentials to talk about the 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:53.600 queer community's relationship to. 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.720 Celebrity, and they are actually in the industry. So I 0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:58.800 wanted to talk to them to see where what if 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.680 Bruce could fit into this list of celebrities loved by 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:02.520 the queer community. 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:06.880 The good ones, you know, Shirley Bassy, Tina Derek Onik, 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.560 a bit of Brittany Christina, basically anyone who could actually sing. 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:13.480 When I got thinking about why I was so drawn 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.840 to them is because they were people who looked like women, 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:21.080 but who were given permission or demanded permission, to step 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.840 outside of their gender category, right, and so like you 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:26.399 know what I mean, shit like that is just so 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.199 inspiring to be like, oh, there's another way of life. 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:33.080 Tom became obsessed with these celebrities. 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.359 I think I initially I misinterpreted that as wanting to 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:46.560 be famous, but I think I'm just trans basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:53.399 the classic it's like stepping outside of the expected and 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.600 being celebrated for that, I think is a really key thing. 0:17:58.560 --> 0:17:58.840 Yeah. 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.600 So these female pops were acting in ways that weren't 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:05.440 available to the women in Tom's life. I really resonate 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.880 with that feeling of finding hope basically that you can 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.800 also step outside of the expectations placed on you based 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:13.480 on your gender. 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:17.840 I think it's also having big emotions that aren't pleased. 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.360 They like get to talk about what's happening inside them. 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:22.040 I think all of that stuff I wasn't really allowed 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:23.840 to do, and young queer people are not allowed to 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:26.919 do because if you do, there's there's fear you'll betray 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:34.919 your quickness and then then what happens. Oh that's sassly burping. 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:36.960 Celeon burps on radio. 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.119 When Tom's talking about these celebrities that they love, they 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:45.760 refer to them as gay icons or queer icons. It 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:46.280 feels like. 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:49.760 There's a difference between just like musicians that queer people 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:53.320 like and those big personalities that rise to icon hood. 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:57.160 What is it that draws queer people to certain celebrities. 0:18:57.720 --> 0:18:59.960 What do we see in them that makes us feel sye? 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:00.920 Yeah? 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:03.679 Me and Tom asked ourselves that as well. We were 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:06.760 talking about the kind of celebrated, over the topness that 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.359 seems to link these icons together, which to us feels 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:11.080 quite camp. 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:13.800 The camp is always a step ahead of you. And 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:16.320 I think a real icon is a real icon knows 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:18.879 what is in control. Real icon, and it's self aware. 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:25.080 It's self aware, it's in control, but not as well like, 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:29.639 but it knows more than it lets on, So much 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:33.639 more than it lets on. Camp is like surprising, and 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:37.760 an icon remains surprising. I think keeps you on your toes, 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.120 keeps you interesteder us. They just fall off, you know. 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.159 Oh yes, this makes so much sense. There is something 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:47.480 so camp about a lot of these straight women who 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.400 are chosen by queers. Just look at Jennifer Coolidge. 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:54.639 Seeing celebrities being outrageous and being celebrated for it is 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:57.760 very compelling to me. It is interesting that so far 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:01.640 as far as we know that all sis straight women. 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.320 I know are straight men so oppressed that they don't 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.640 even get a look in at being considered a queer icon. 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:09.800 Well interesting that you'd say that, because another thing that 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.560 we talked about was it's even more compelling if their 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:14.719 journey to fame included some hardship. 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.200 Madonna is like the girl whose mother died and she's 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:21.000 from a family of so is it seven siblings and 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:23.119 she came to New York with thirty two dollars in 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:27.280 her pocket. That is true, but also like the struggle 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:29.960 sort of stopped there. She sort of had a few 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:32.840 club hits and then you know, was just made into 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:35.040 a massive star, and she made herself into Master's star. 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:35.320 I think. 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:38.159 Also that's Key Slindon, who I would say is one 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:41.080 of the last living entertainers. She was like from this 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:45.399 big family in Montreal. Plot from Obscurity, there's a sense 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:46.160 of struggle. 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:49.560 Tom isn't saying that fame fixed every one of these 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:53.000 women's problems and they never felt struggle again. But this 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:56.680 narrative of coming from nothing and then being discovered or 0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:59.399 rising to fame in some way, it makes sense why 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:02.200 queer people would be into that. Oh yeah, the. 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.200 Amount of time I spent thinking about how my heroes 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.960 have also come from hardship and survived, made it out 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:13.240 of their reinvented themselves. It's like proof that one day 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:14.280 you could do that too. 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:18.120 And I also think there's something vindicating about like, even 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:20.800 if the people around you don't recognize it yet, there's 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:23.080 something special about you that the world was some day 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:26.119 celebrate you for, which I think is something you have 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:28.320 to try and cling onto if you're a queer person 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:30.800 who's shamed and bullied for your queerness. 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:34.119 And also really continues, probably throughout their career, to pedal 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:36.000 that narrative of like I had it hard, I came 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:39.720 from nothing. Share is an amazed I mean, and it's 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:42.399 all true Share Tea, all those people, it's true of 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:46.880 them all, but it's also and it's a narrative pedled. 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:51.919 That's why the most iconic of all my icons, the 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:55.480 most iconic moment of any of them ever was when 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:57.720 a Donnaly's Ray of Light, because it was the most 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:01.160 aware of where she was now and it was like, honest, 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:05.320 it was like, I'm famous, and I've been doing this 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:07.400 to look for a mother, and I became a mother 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:11.800 and that's what I needed all along, and I haven't 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:14.520 been misunderstanding this whole journey, and that was like whoa Now. 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.800 That was like rubbed from under because it was just 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.119 really aware of what games she'd been playing. Kind of thing. 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:26.600