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Speaker 1: Well, now I'm putting my trousers on. I found a

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Speaker 1: red cap which I've put in the back pocket of

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Speaker 1: my blue jeans, like the one in the USA album cover,

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Speaker 1: and I lit it up and it is receiving visting

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Speaker 1: is what I'm flagging. Oh, I need to put my

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Speaker 1: willy in which is some socks stuff and down my

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Speaker 1: pants and Jesse. I'm a thirty one year old audio

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Speaker 1: producer and youth worker from London. Last year I started

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Speaker 1: doing drag as Butch Springsteen you're doing in the dressing

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Speaker 1: room of the RVC the Rowbox was having which is

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Speaker 1: London's oldest queer venner. I think it's one of the

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Speaker 1: oldest anyway. This is a recording of me backstage getting

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Speaker 1: ready for one of my first ever performances at a

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Speaker 1: night called Kings of Clubs run by drag king Frankie Sinatra.

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Speaker 1: And then my tool belt goes on, Aspana goes on

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Speaker 1: the tool belt and and I tucked the tool belt

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Speaker 1: into the genes because my clothes off later is there's

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Speaker 1: a fun reveal. Where I grew up in London. The

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Speaker 1: only people who'd heard of Bruce Springsteen were my friend's dads.

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Speaker 1: Bruce is usually described as a rock or Americani musician,

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Speaker 1: but each album's different. You've got hints of brock and

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Speaker 1: Roll or eighties synth pop, emotional man with a guitar.

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Speaker 1: It's always reminded me of country. Not the tunes necessarily,

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Speaker 1: but the way Bruce tells stories. His songs have these big,

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Speaker 1: grand narratives, tales of characters that Bruce has made up

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Speaker 1: or based on people in this life. I discovered Bruce

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Speaker 1: Springsteen when I was twenty. I knew who he was

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Speaker 1: before then, but that's the first time I properly heard

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Speaker 1: his music. It went straight into my insides, pulling out

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Speaker 1: feelings that I didn't even realize I had yet, giving

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Speaker 1: them new words as they were held up to the life.

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Speaker 1: I want to be more masking so I look like

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Speaker 1: like Bruce. So I'm putting like a big white line

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Speaker 1: down my nose to trying to make my nose look

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Speaker 1: as wide as possible, and I'm going to try and

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Speaker 1: make my like jaw look as square as possible. Opposite

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Speaker 1: of what drag queens do is what drag kings do.

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Speaker 2: Basically.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like sometimes people go through phases when

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Speaker 1: they're like teenagers of being really good at putting makeup on,

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Speaker 1: and I always felt like I was trying to do

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Speaker 1: drag when I put on because I was just so

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Speaker 1: bad at it. And sometimes I've come on to school

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Speaker 1: with like, you know, like misscar rolled down your face.

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Speaker 3: It's that.

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Speaker 1: Bruce Binstein has had many looks over the years. The

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Speaker 1: one I'm currently getting into is inspired by his eighties

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Speaker 1: era blue denim but hugging tight jeans, white T shirt

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Speaker 1: with a denim vest over the top. In the eighties,

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Speaker 1: he had this mop of curly dark brown hair, often

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Speaker 1: pushed back with a little bandanna. Later on, I'll strip

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Speaker 1: down to a denhim harness. I made myself that's more

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Speaker 1: Butcher Springsteen than Bruce Springsteen. But a boy can dream.

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Speaker 1: I'm really sweaty as well, so it looks like a

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Speaker 1: salk in brunt of my face. Each act I do

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Speaker 1: is based on a different Bruce song. In the one

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Speaker 1: I'm about to do, I go on stage with a

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Speaker 1: huge cardboard red cut explain that she's my girlfriend and

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Speaker 1: she's upset with me. It turns out she's annoyed with

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Speaker 1: me because I don't go down on her properly. So

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Speaker 1: I learned how to do it on stage while singing

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Speaker 1: Bruce's I'm Going Down. It's fun and silly and campy.

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Speaker 1: I've always loved watching drag, but I never thought I'd

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Speaker 1: be able to get up on stage in front of

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Speaker 1: a crowded room doing it myself.

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Speaker 4: Please welcome to.

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Speaker 1: The stage, Butch Springy.

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Speaker 5: I'm I'm an internationally famous musician in New Jersey, but

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Speaker 5: I can only do a Southern American accents.

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Speaker 3: You've just got to do with it.

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Speaker 1: This is because the bus belongs to us. It's a

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Speaker 1: series that has truly been years in the making when

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Speaker 1: my love for Bruce Springsteen takes me to places I

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Speaker 1: never would have expected. Who were it best, Bruce Springsteen

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Speaker 1: or Katie Lang.

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Speaker 6: It's like you, Squinn and everyone can be a butch.

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Speaker 1: Why does sad likes love Nebraska? On my dating profile,

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Speaker 1: I had something about being a fan of Nebraska area.

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Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen is Bruce, in fact the ultimate Emo. It

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Speaker 1: was with Bruce's music that when I first arrived, I

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Speaker 1: thought I'd assimilate into straight culture, which is such a joke. Now, considering,

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Speaker 1: let's start at the beginning.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so I'm sitting in my bedroom.

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Speaker 2: I'm about to start making another issue of Caution More,

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Speaker 2: which is like my little diary sine.

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Speaker 1: This is Holly Cassio. They make a zine series called

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Speaker 1: Me and Bruce, all about how a northern working class

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Speaker 1: DIY punk fell in love with Bruce Springsteen. They also

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Speaker 1: made a graphic memoor called Looking for Bruce, charting their

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Speaker 1: spiritual pilgrimage to New Jersey to somehow find the real

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Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen. Holly is the key to this whole thing.

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Speaker 2: I thought this would be really nice time to message

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Speaker 2: you and reflecting on my teenage queer love of Bruce Springsteen,

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Speaker 2: because this is exactly how it started. Me sitting on

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Speaker 2: the floor surrounded by Blood's papers and a long arm

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Speaker 2: Stappler and I have no idea where on earth my

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Speaker 2: pritt stick is, so that's where I'm taking a moment

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Speaker 2: to message you instead of looking for a pritt stick.

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Speaker 3: He I'm currently sitting in my room.

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Speaker 1: I have a picture of my all of one of

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Speaker 1: Bruce and Claracs's famous kisses.

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Speaker 3: I'd like backed.

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Speaker 1: Onto some pink tissue paper and then put it in

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Speaker 1: a white frame, and it's six on my wall. Back

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, I was introduced to Holly by a

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Speaker 1: friend of mine. He was like, you're queer. You like

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Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen, you would like Colly Fassio. It was in

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Speaker 1: the midst of a COVID nineteen lockdown, so our first

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Speaker 1: communication was through emails and voice notes.

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Speaker 2: My memory is being like thirteen fourteen and being queer

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Speaker 2: but not out. It's the nineties, so the Internet exists,

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Speaker 2: but it doesn't exist in like everyone's house does, and

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Speaker 2: it definitely doesn't exist in our house. Section twenty eight exists,

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Speaker 2: so no one talks about being queer or feeling different

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Speaker 2: at school like Section twenty eight just means that no

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Speaker 2: one talks about that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: For anyone who hasn't heard of Section twenty eight. It

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Speaker 1: was a UK law passed under Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty eight which prohibited the quote promotion of

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Speaker 1: homosexuality by local authorities. This led to loads of teachers

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Speaker 1: and students feeling unable to come out in school, let

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Speaker 1: alone provide or access healthy LGBT sex education. The law

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Speaker 1: only started being repealed in England in two thousand and three,

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Speaker 1: so when I was eleven, but for Holly, all of

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Speaker 1: their schooling was under Section twenty eight not a great

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Speaker 1: time to be a queer teenager in the UK.

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Speaker 3: I was really badly bullied.

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Speaker 2: I didn't have any friends, and so for me, zines

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Speaker 2: were a lifeline. They were like this physical, tangible dispatch

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Speaker 2: from out there somewhere, from.

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Speaker 3: A bunch of queers saying, there's more of us out here.

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Speaker 3: You're not alone, like this stuff happening, you can be

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Speaker 3: part of this.

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Speaker 1: I was quite a repressed teenager, I would say, in

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Speaker 1: terms of my sexual and gender. I remember I came

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Speaker 1: up to my friends as bisexual when I was twelve

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Speaker 1: at a sleepover. Everyone was saying, what percentage gay are you?

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Speaker 1: And everyone was like, oh, maybe I'm like one cent gay,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I think I'm fifty percent gay and.

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Speaker 3: Everyone was like, no, you're not disgusting.

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Speaker 1: And I simply didn't talk about it or think about

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Speaker 1: it again until I was.

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Speaker 3: In my twenties.

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Speaker 1: You know how sports fans meet each other and they

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Speaker 1: have like three standard questions to like get the chat going,

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Speaker 1: like what team you support? Oh, so, how do you

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Speaker 1: feel about Black blavest performance this season? And then some

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Speaker 1: kind of joke that shows that they know things about

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Speaker 1: the sport. They're talking about Well, me and Holly did

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Speaker 1: the queer Bruce fan version of that. We swap our

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Speaker 1: queer Bruce origin stories.

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Speaker 2: I had two Bruce records. I had Start with the

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Speaker 2: Edge of Town email graphic, and I also had Bart

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Speaker 2: of the USA, also an email graphic, but like wrapped

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Speaker 2: up in the pretend to like a pop album. I

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Speaker 2: was making a zene and I was making a mixtape

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Speaker 2: for a friend, and I remember putting on Dancing in

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Speaker 2: the Dark onto a mixtape as like a novelty song.

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Speaker 2: I was like, Lol, won't this be funny putting on

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Speaker 2: this old dad music onto a mixtape.

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Speaker 3: So I've got Dancing in the Dark on the background.

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Speaker 2: I'm sitting on the floor and I'm making this zine

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Speaker 2: and it's like I'm hearing the song for the first time,

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Speaker 2: Like some of those lyrics just somehow hit me in

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Speaker 2: the gut in a way that hasn't happened before, and

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Speaker 2: I'm recognizing.

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Speaker 3: It as the queer anthem of loneliness than it is.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: There's like lines like I want to change my clothes,

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Speaker 2: my hair, my face, Like tell me Bruce isn't queer

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Speaker 2: when he writes that line, tell me Bruce isn't staring

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Speaker 2: into reflection of himself, thinking about gender, thinking about how

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Speaker 2: no one else he knows looks like him, and how

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Speaker 2: he feels really alone and isolated. But the lyric that

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Speaker 2: for me always stood out, the lyric that made me

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Speaker 2: you just stop dead in my tracks, is there's a

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Speaker 2: line in that song that says, there's something happening somewhere, baby,

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Speaker 2: I just know that there is.

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Speaker 3: There is no encapsulation.

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Speaker 2: Of my lonely, lonely, small town queer teenage life than

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Speaker 2: that line.

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Speaker 3: It's really lonely.

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Speaker 2: I think the queer teenage experience, particularly in the nineties,

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Speaker 2: particularly during section twenty eight, particularly in a small town

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Speaker 2: in West Yorkshire, sadly, it was a very lonely experience.

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Speaker 2: And I remember hearing that line playing in the song

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Speaker 2: when I was making a scene and just thinking.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's it. That's exactly how I feel.

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Speaker 2: That there's stuff happening out there, I'm just not part

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Speaker 2: of it yet is kind of enough to keep me going.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's where my lifelong obsession with Bruce

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Speaker 2: Springsteen kind of started.

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Speaker 1: My lifelong obsession with Bruce Springsteen started a bit later

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Speaker 1: than Holly's. I spent almost the entirety of my teenage years,

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Speaker 1: not allowing myself to think about my queerness. When I

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Speaker 1: was twenty, I moved to Canada for a year, and

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Speaker 1: in very classic baby queer fashion, I shaved my head

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Speaker 1: for the first time, unlocking lots of new feelings that

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Speaker 1: I'd been hiding away under my curls. And then I

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Speaker 1: went to visit my friend in Chicago, Jake, who's this

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Speaker 1: huge Bruce Springsteen fan. I remember we were cooking spaghetti carbonara,

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Speaker 1: and we were frying those like little weird lard ons

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Speaker 1: that you can mind America, and like frying it to

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Speaker 1: all the fat fed off and made them really crispy.

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Speaker 1: And we were doing that and listening to Bruce in

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Speaker 1: his kitchen, and he was telling me all the things

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Speaker 1: they loved about Bruce Springsteen. And the song, like, the

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Speaker 1: song that really got me was It's still one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite songs.

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Speaker 3: It's called Ain't Good Enough for You?

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Speaker 1: Ain't Good Enough for You. It's quite an up, cheeky

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Speaker 1: song from an album called The Promise, a compilation album

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Speaker 1: from twenty ten of previously unreleased songs recorded in the

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Speaker 1: late seventies. The character in the song is singing about

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Speaker 1: his girlfriend who can never be pleased. The chorus goes,

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Speaker 1: no matter what I do ain't good enough for you.

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Speaker 1: There's a bit in it where he lists how he

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Speaker 1: tried all the things people say you should do to

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Speaker 1: please a partner. He gets a job in sales, he

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Speaker 1: buys a fancy shirt, he gets the cholest record, buys

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Speaker 1: a book about love, and goes to her door with

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Speaker 1: a bunch of flowers, and still she says he's not

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Speaker 1: good enough. The feeling I related to in the song

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Speaker 1: was him doing all the quote right things that society

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Speaker 1: tells you to do, but it's still not working, which

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Speaker 1: is basically exactly how I was starting to feel about

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Speaker 1: my gender. I tried on so many different ways. Society

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Speaker 1: told me I could be a woman from very butch

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Speaker 1: to very fem from the loosest, most shapeless, don't notice

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Speaker 1: be closed to bripen hair and trainers, And listening to Bruce,

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Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I get how it feels to

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Speaker 1: try all the different things and it's still somehow just

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Speaker 1: not be right. But I guess I didn't realize at

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Speaker 1: that point that you could just be trans And so

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Speaker 1: now obviously that makes not more sense.

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Speaker 3: So many of his songs are about.

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Speaker 1: Having a lot of feelings, being misunderstood, being in a

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Speaker 1: place where there aren't people like you, or people don't

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Speaker 1: understand you, and then needing or wanting escape. And that

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Speaker 1: was definitely the kind of angst I was feeling at

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Speaker 1: that time, and I've never really looked back. The end

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Speaker 1: of those voice notes sharing our Bruce Springsteen backstories was an.

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Speaker 6: Invitation, yeah, for me to make a podcast with you

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Speaker 6: about queerness and Bruce Springsteen.

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Speaker 1: Hello, Holly, Hello Jesse. Yeah, so you said yes, and

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Speaker 1: now you're my co host. Correct. So something that came

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Speaker 1: out of those first chats was how many queer Bruce fans?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 1: I think you're maybe like the third queer Bruce fan

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Speaker 1: I ever met, But it turns out there's loads of us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I also spent so many years thinking I'm the only

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Speaker 6: queer person to find meaning in the songs of this

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Speaker 6: kind of centuriest dad. But once I started making my

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Speaker 6: Bruce scenes, loads of people started reaching out, and you were,

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Speaker 6: by no means the first person to contact me, being like,

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Speaker 6: I love Bruce too. There's actually loads of us out there.

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Speaker 1: The more I found out there were loads of queers

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Speaker 1: who loved Bruce Bringsteen. The more questions I had, What

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Speaker 1: is it about Bruce? Why are we so obsessed with him?

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Speaker 1: And why don't people know that Bruce is loved by

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Speaker 1: queer people?

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Speaker 2: Me too, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 6: These questions are a huge part of my life, and

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Speaker 6: that's why we're putting our serious journalist hats on to

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Speaker 6: get to the bottom of Bruce's queer appeal.

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Speaker 1: That's next, Jesse Holly, because the bus belongs to us.

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Speaker 6: We know from personal experience that other queer Bruce lovers

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Speaker 6: do exist. But I also know that a lot of

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Speaker 6: queer people react to my love of Bruce Springsteen with

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Speaker 6: confusion and surprise.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, meeting he is simply a rich, white, straight cist

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Speaker 1: man who was heavily associated with the American flag, one

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Speaker 1: of the least queer symbols known to man.

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Speaker 2: Either that or the Saint George Flagg or English flag,

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Speaker 2: which I basically honestly at fascist rallies or painted onto

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Speaker 2: the faces of drunk, scary men at the football.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that kind of nationalist pride is just not giving queer.

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Speaker 1: Bruce Brasteen is not someone you'd think of if someone

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Speaker 1: asks you to list celebrities loved by the queer community.

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Speaker 4: Madonna Sinjan, when Marikerry, I really really, when I was young,

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Speaker 4: particularly looked to largely CIS female straight women to sort

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Speaker 4: of narrate the big emotions I was feeling, which was

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Speaker 4: like deep last heartbreak, loneliness.

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Speaker 6: Even if Bruce feels niche or unconventional as an object

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Speaker 6: of queer fandom, queer people have a long history of

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Speaker 6: standing celebrities.

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Speaker 4: Hello, my name is Tom russ.

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Speaker 1: Mussen, and my friend Tom is one of them. They're

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Speaker 1: a pop star, composer, writer, sex columnist, former drag queen, and.

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Speaker 4: Proud dog mom to Celendon, who you can hear snoring

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Speaker 4: on my lap right now.

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Speaker 1: Selene lay sleeping on Tom's lap for the entire interview.

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Speaker 4: She's such a joy.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, having a dog called Selene feels to me like

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Speaker 2: it gives Tom the right credentials to talk about the

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Speaker 2: queer community's relationship to.

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Speaker 1: Celebrity, and they are actually in the industry. So I

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk to them to see where what if

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Speaker 1: Bruce could fit into this list of celebrities loved by

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Speaker 1: the queer community.

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Speaker 4: The good ones, you know, Shirley Bassy, Tina Derek Onik,

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Speaker 4: a bit of Brittany Christina, basically anyone who could actually sing.

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Speaker 4: When I got thinking about why I was so drawn

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Speaker 4: to them is because they were people who looked like women,

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Speaker 4: but who were given permission or demanded permission, to step

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Speaker 4: outside of their gender category, right, and so like you

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Speaker 4: know what I mean, shit like that is just so

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Speaker 4: inspiring to be like, oh, there's another way of life.

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Speaker 1: Tom became obsessed with these celebrities.

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Speaker 4: I think I initially I misinterpreted that as wanting to

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Speaker 4: be famous, but I think I'm just trans basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: the classic it's like stepping outside of the expected and

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Speaker 4: being celebrated for that, I think is a really key thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So these female pops were acting in ways that weren't

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Speaker 2: available to the women in Tom's life. I really resonate

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Speaker 2: with that feeling of finding hope basically that you can

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Speaker 2: also step outside of the expectations placed on you based

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Speaker 2: on your gender.

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Speaker 4: I think it's also having big emotions that aren't pleased.

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Speaker 4: They like get to talk about what's happening inside them.

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Speaker 4: I think all of that stuff I wasn't really allowed

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Speaker 4: to do, and young queer people are not allowed to

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Speaker 4: do because if you do, there's there's fear you'll betray

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Speaker 4: your quickness and then then what happens. Oh that's sassly burping.

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Speaker 4: Celeon burps on radio.

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Speaker 1: When Tom's talking about these celebrities that they love, they

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Speaker 1: refer to them as gay icons or queer icons. It

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Speaker 1: feels like.

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Speaker 6: There's a difference between just like musicians that queer people

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Speaker 6: like and those big personalities that rise to icon hood.

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Speaker 6: What is it that draws queer people to certain celebrities.

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Speaker 6: What do we see in them that makes us feel sye?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Me and Tom asked ourselves that as well. We were

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Speaker 1: talking about the kind of celebrated, over the topness that

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Speaker 1: seems to link these icons together, which to us feels

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Speaker 1: quite camp.

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Speaker 4: The camp is always a step ahead of you. And

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Speaker 4: I think a real icon is a real icon knows

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Speaker 4: what is in control. Real icon, and it's self aware.

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Speaker 4: It's self aware, it's in control, but not as well like,

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Speaker 4: but it knows more than it lets on, So much

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Speaker 4: more than it lets on. Camp is like surprising, and

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Speaker 4: an icon remains surprising. I think keeps you on your toes,

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Speaker 4: keeps you interesteder us. They just fall off, you know.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, this makes so much sense. There is something

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Speaker 2: so camp about a lot of these straight women who

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Speaker 2: are chosen by queers. Just look at Jennifer Coolidge.

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Speaker 1: Seeing celebrities being outrageous and being celebrated for it is

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Speaker 1: very compelling to me. It is interesting that so far

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Speaker 1: as far as we know that all sis straight women.

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Speaker 6: I know are straight men so oppressed that they don't

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Speaker 6: even get a look in at being considered a queer icon.

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Speaker 1: Well interesting that you'd say that, because another thing that

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Speaker 1: we talked about was it's even more compelling if their

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Speaker 1: journey to fame included some hardship.

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Speaker 4: Madonna is like the girl whose mother died and she's

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Speaker 4: from a family of so is it seven siblings and

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Speaker 4: she came to New York with thirty two dollars in

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Speaker 4: her pocket. That is true, but also like the struggle

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Speaker 4: sort of stopped there. She sort of had a few

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Speaker 4: club hits and then you know, was just made into

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Speaker 4: a massive star, and she made herself into Master's star.

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Speaker 3: I think.

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Speaker 4: Also that's Key Slindon, who I would say is one

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Speaker 4: of the last living entertainers. She was like from this

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Speaker 4: big family in Montreal. Plot from Obscurity, there's a sense

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Speaker 4: of struggle.

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Speaker 1: Tom isn't saying that fame fixed every one of these

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Speaker 1: women's problems and they never felt struggle again. But this

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Speaker 1: narrative of coming from nothing and then being discovered or

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Speaker 1: rising to fame in some way, it makes sense why

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Speaker 1: queer people would be into that. Oh yeah, the.

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Speaker 6: Amount of time I spent thinking about how my heroes

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Speaker 6: have also come from hardship and survived, made it out

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Speaker 6: of their reinvented themselves. It's like proof that one day

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Speaker 6: you could do that too.

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Speaker 1: And I also think there's something vindicating about like, even

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Speaker 1: if the people around you don't recognize it yet, there's

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Speaker 1: something special about you that the world was some day

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Speaker 1: celebrate you for, which I think is something you have

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Speaker 1: to try and cling onto if you're a queer person

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Speaker 1: who's shamed and bullied for your queerness.

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Speaker 4: And also really continues, probably throughout their career, to pedal

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Speaker 4: that narrative of like I had it hard, I came

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Speaker 4: from nothing. Share is an amazed I mean, and it's

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Speaker 4: all true Share Tea, all those people, it's true of

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Speaker 4: them all, but it's also and it's a narrative pedled.

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Speaker 4: That's why the most iconic of all my icons, the

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Speaker 4: most iconic moment of any of them ever was when

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Speaker 4: a Donnaly's Ray of Light, because it was the most

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Speaker 4: aware of where she was now and it was like, honest,

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Speaker 4: it was like, I'm famous, and I've been doing this

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Speaker 4: to look for a mother, and I became a mother

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Speaker 4: and that's what I needed all along, and I haven't

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Speaker 4: been misunderstanding this whole journey, and that was like whoa Now.

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Speaker 4: That was like rubbed from under because it was just

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Speaker 4: really aware of what games she'd been playing. Kind of thing.

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Speaker 6: This is so relevant to Bruce Sprinkstein. So many of

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Speaker 6: his songs are about working class struggles. His dad worked

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Speaker 6: in a factory, but he started being a musician at sixteen,

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Speaker 6: and his joke these days is I've never worked today

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Speaker 6: in my life.

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Speaker 1: His class experience is kind of genuine and the narrative

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Speaker 1: peddled at the same time.

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Speaker 4: People think they can just put on a great outfit,

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Speaker 4: dye their hair every album cycle a different color, and

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Speaker 4: get some pop bangs written and they'll become an icon.

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Speaker 4: But that is not the same as being someone who

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Speaker 4: speaks truth. And if you think about what actually connects

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Speaker 4: all the icons that I can think of and probably

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Speaker 4: definitely actually there's truth and then of course you dress

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Speaker 4: that up, you trojan horse it maybe by wild outfits

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Speaker 4: and pulling publicity stunts. But really that's why the campus moment,

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Speaker 4: let's say, in Britney Spears career, was when she released

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Speaker 4: Blackout after she had her two thousand and seven like

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Speaker 4: public really really like the horrific nervous.

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Speaker 1: Breakdown which she was pushed to you by the paparazzi

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Speaker 1: and the toxic celebrity culture of the early two thousands.

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Speaker 4: Blackout, which she still cites as one of her best albums,

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Speaker 4: Her best album, I think, was her telling the truth

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Speaker 4: of that situation. It's just amazing. It's just it's amazing.

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Speaker 4: It's amazing.

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Speaker 1: So you gain this, yeah, truth, right, Harley Jesse. This

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Speaker 1: leads me to your proposal. Okay, so we know that

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Speaker 1: Bruce is loved by lots of queer people, but for

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Speaker 1: some reason, he kind of flies under the raidar in

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Speaker 1: the queer community.

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Speaker 6: He's not the first person who comes to mind when

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Speaker 6: you said queer icon.

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Speaker 1: He's not. But I just think that Bruce Springsteen is

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Speaker 1: an unsugn queer icon. I think there's enough of us

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Speaker 1: who love him and relate to him in the ways

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Speaker 1: that Tom was talking about. And so that's my proposal,

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Speaker 1: me and you on a mission to get Bruce Springsteen

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Speaker 1: the queer icons seal of approval.

439
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 6: Oh my god, Yes, okay, and how would you make

440
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 6: this happen? Like, who gets to say who a queer

441
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 6: icon is?

442
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 3: Well?

443
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 1: I thought maybe us talking to Tom, we kind of

444
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: realized halfway through that we were sort of accidentally making

445
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: a checklist for what people need to qualify as a

446
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 1: queer icon.

447
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 6: Okay, so like there need to be camp and they

448
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 6: need to have some kind of narrative of struggle for

449
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 6: us to root for them as an underdog.

450
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. I feel like that's two solid checklist points.

451
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: I was also thinking about the fact that Bruce is

452
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 1: a musician. How do you tell the difference between a

453
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 1: musician queer's like and a queer icon that happens to

454
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 1: be a musician. What does their music have to do

455
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: to qualify for I can state this.

456
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 4: I don't necessarily think that the music has to be

457
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 4: played in a club necessarily, or like narrate where euphoria necessarily,

458
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 4: But I think maybe it has to narrate a certain

459
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 4: part of a queer person's emotional life, right, So Lana

460
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 4: del Rey, Lanna del Ray's music right allows you into

461
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 4: like a very complicated relationship with men, to be the

462
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 4: complicated person in a relationship with a man, so you know,

463
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 4: gay men or straight trans girls basically or bisexuals. Of course,

464
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 4: all of this goes without saying that there are like

465
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 4: everyone of every gender and of every race and of

466
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 4: every sexuality stands these people in their own different ways.

467
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 4: I think it has to narrate or facilitate an emotion,

468
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 4: a feeling that's quite deep, and so that is euphoria

469
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 4: for sure, or like real sadness or loneliness or obsession

470
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 4: deep sadness. Yeah, a lot of my friends, because of

471
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 4: certain and people I know, because of certain things they've

472
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 4: been through, are quite talented at association. And this is

473
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 4: across the sort of spectrum of sexualities and genders sort

474
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 4: of ignoring what's happening with them inside, because I guess

475
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 4: a big thing we all had to do when we

476
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 4: were young in a really homophobic society and transfer over

477
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 4: society is sort of is to sort of hide the

478
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 4: true emotions going on because that would betray our queerness,

479
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 4: and that isn't always the safest option, and so we

480
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 4: get quite good at association. And I think a queer

481
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 4: icons music allows us into our emotions feelings that might

482
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 4: be hard to access or complicate to access. You know,

483
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 4: can you dance to it? Can you cry to it?

484
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 4: Can you fuck to it?

485
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 3: Like?

486
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 4: Can you do something that is a bit more extreme

487
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 4: and expressive as a can I just like bop along

488
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 4: to it? But also can you bop a onto it?

489
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 4: It's actually you could do it's forever.

490
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,479
Speaker 6: Can you dance to it? Can you cry to it?

491
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 6: Can you fuck to it? Well, that's the next item

492
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 6: on our checklist.

493
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: Then I think this is such an essential raiming for

494
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 1: a queer icon checklist. Can their music help drag you

495
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: back from years of dissociation? What's career than that?

496
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: Okay, this is like proper science that we're doing. We

497
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 2: have a hypothesis. Bruce Springsteen is an unsung queer icon.

498
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: You and Tom have spoken.

499
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 2: About like the control category if you will and they will.

500
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: We know that.

501
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 2: People who are already agreed upon as queer icons are

502
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 2: camp They have underdog status and have music that facilitates

503
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: queer emotion. That's three great checklist points.

504
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: I think we're ready to go. There's one more thing

505
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: I spoke to Tom about which I think is important

506
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: for us to think about. By the end of our chat,

507
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 1: I'd realize this is the direction we needed to take

508
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 1: the podcast. In admission to make Bruce Bringsteen a widely

509
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: recognized queer icon, I told them, and they left me

510
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:05,959
Speaker 1: with this.

511
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 4: I think there is a sort of unanimous, lee agreed

512
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 4: upon code of people who are. And also, I think

513
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 4: one thing we've missed off this checklist is there's just something.

514
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 4: It's really hard to name it, but there is just

515
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 4: something and you just know it as a queer person.

516
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 4: You just know it in your soul places. And yet

517
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 4: you know you just know who's not and you know

518
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 4: who is. Yeah, it's a feeling. So do they have it?

519
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 4: Whatever it is? Maybe you'll find it over the next

520
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 4: however many episodes. But I think that, yeah, you've got

521
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 4: your workout. I think because there has been all these things,

522
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 4: and I think Bruce is many, but who knows if

523
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 4: he's all of them?

524
00:28:54,360 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 2: Them challenge except it I, Holly Cassio, and and you

525
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 2: Jesse Lawson have anointed ourselves with queer scientist status on

526
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: a mission to get Bruce Brinsteen recognized as a queer icon.

527
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: Over the next six episodes, we will check if Bruce

528
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: Springsteen is camp.

529
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 6: If Bruce Brinstein can be rooted for as an underdog.

530
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: If you can dance, cry, and fuck to Bruce Springsteen's music.

531
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 6: And if other queer people would be willing to recognize

532
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 6: Bruce as a queer icon too.

533
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: We know that Bruce has queer fans, can we make

534
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: him into a queer icon?

535
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 6: That's next episode.

536
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: Because the Boss Belongs to Us is a production of

537
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: malten Heart and iHeart Podcasts.

538
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: We're hosted by Jesse Lawson and Holly Cassio.

539
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 2: The series is executive produced by Jesse and Holly and

540
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: created by Jesse Lawson.

541
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: This episode was produced and sound designed by Jesse Lawson,

542
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: with production assistants by Ali Addington and Tess Hazel. Michelle

543
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: Maclam is our engineer.

544
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: Our original music and theme is by Talk Bizarre at

545
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: Talk b A z A R Underscore.

546
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: Our show art is designed and illustrated by Holly Cassio

547
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: at Holly c A s I O.

548
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 2: And for more Butch Springsteen content, they're at Butch Springsteen Underscore.

549
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: Drag fact Checking is by Selina Soln. Legal services provided

550
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: by Rowan Morn and File.

551
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: Our executive producer from Malton Hart is Jasmin J. T.

552
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,719
Speaker 6: Green. Our executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Linday Hoffman.

553
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: Bye