Speaker 1: Hello everyone. I hope that you are staying safe and
Speaker 1: sane in these very challenging times. And I also want
Speaker 1: to give a brief reminder of some of the things
Speaker 1: that we at the one You Feed are doing to
Speaker 1: try and be of support during this time, and you
Speaker 1: can get details on all these things at one you
Speaker 1: Feed dot net slash help. First, we are doing free
Speaker 1: weekly group coaching calls on Wednesdays at noon. We had
Speaker 1: our first one this last Wednesday and it was wonderful
Speaker 1: and I will do it again for the next several weeks.
Speaker 1: Details as I said, on how to join that are
Speaker 1: at when you Feed dot net slash help. Secondly, I
Speaker 1: am doing free coaching sessions for healthcare workers. There's only
Speaker 1: a few spots remaining. I've gotten a pretty overwhelming response
Speaker 1: to that and I'm working with a lot of people,
Speaker 1: but there are still some opportunities, so free coaching sessions
Speaker 1: for healthcare workers. And then also I am giving discounts
Speaker 1: and offering payment plans on all of the one on
Speaker 1: one coaching and spiritual habits program, so that if you
Speaker 1: need some additional support during this time. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: make it a little bit more affordable and a little
Speaker 1: bit easier to access, and as I mentioned earlier, details
Speaker 1: on all these things are at one you feed dot
Speaker 1: net s flash help and if you're not connected to
Speaker 1: us via email list or social media, this is a
Speaker 1: great time to do it because we are using those
Speaker 1: channels to announce other things that we are doing to
Speaker 1: provide support in these times. So you can join our
Speaker 1: email list and get links to all our social media
Speaker 1: off of that same page. So I wish you the
Speaker 1: best in staying safe and sane, be good to yourself,
Speaker 1: be good to others. All the things that we've talked
Speaker 1: about and learned about. Feeding our good wolf is especially
Speaker 1: important in these times that I'd encourage you to lean
Speaker 1: on those learnings, lean on those practices because we need
Speaker 1: them more than ever. Thanks so much, and let me
Speaker 1: know how we can help. If you have other ideas
Speaker 1: that we've not thought of, please feel free to let
Speaker 1: us know. Take care by. Everything is fine. I'm just
Speaker 1: going to tamp this down for a little bit of
Speaker 1: chocolate on top of it, like some wine or some Netflix.
Speaker 1: And you know what, now it's fine. I don't feel
Speaker 1: it anymore. I'm fine. Welcome to the one you feed
Speaker 1: throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the
Speaker 1: thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or
Speaker 1: you are what you think ring true. And yet for
Speaker 1: many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
Speaker 1: We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
Speaker 1: see what we don't have instead of what we do.
Speaker 1: We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
Speaker 1: But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It
Speaker 1: takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life
Speaker 1: worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
Speaker 1: themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their wolf.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is
Speaker 1: Adriana Limbach, a head teacher at M and DFL Meditation
Speaker 1: Studios in New York City. Adriana's work has been featured
Speaker 1: in The New York Times, Women's Health, Refinery, twenty nine,
Speaker 1: Yoga Journal, and others. Her new book is Tea and
Speaker 1: Cake with Demons, a Buddhist Guide to Feeling Worthy. Hi, Adriana,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Eric. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: having me here. It's a real treat. Yeah, I'm excited
Speaker 1: to have you on we're gonna talk about your book
Speaker 1: called Tea and Cake with Demons, a Buddhist Guide to
Speaker 1: Feeling Worthy, and it's really a wonderful book. You're a
Speaker 1: great writer. We're gonna talk about that in a second,
Speaker 1: but let's start like we always do, with The Parable.
Speaker 1: There is a grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter and
Speaker 1: he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of
Speaker 1: us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and
Speaker 1: the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like
Speaker 1: greed and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops and
Speaker 1: she looks at her grandfather says, grandfather, which one wins?
Speaker 1: And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 1: means to you in your life and in the work
Speaker 1: that you do. It's a really great question. You know.
Speaker 1: I love the Parable, and I really love your podcast.
Speaker 1: The Parable actually brought me to your podcast. It was
Speaker 1: recommended to me by a friend, maybe like a year
Speaker 1: and a half ago or so. You know, I think um,
Speaker 1: in the most basic sense, the Parable in my own
Speaker 1: life is a really great reminder of where my attention goes,
Speaker 1: my finite attention, And I think particularly working in the
Speaker 1: world of meditation, which is funny to say that I
Speaker 1: work in meditation, like the thing now right right? Um, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I really think a lot about attention and where we're
Speaker 1: placing our attention and just the power of our attention
Speaker 1: and how that really sort of dictates where our energy
Speaker 1: goes and where our focus goes, and our momentum goes,
Speaker 1: and and so I think this particular parable is such
Speaker 1: a beautiful reminder um that we actually have a lot
Speaker 1: of choice and agency over where our attention goes and
Speaker 1: the resulting consequences of that. Yeah, I love that. We
Speaker 1: recently launched a new programs it's called Spiritual Habits program.
Speaker 1: But one of the fundamental principles is really to be
Speaker 1: looking at as often as we can where is our
Speaker 1: what is our intention? And where is our attention? And
Speaker 1: with those two things, we're able to actually make pretty
Speaker 1: big transformations by just staying focused on And a lot
Speaker 1: of times it's like what do I intend to do
Speaker 1: with my attention? Which is kind of what you're saying.
Speaker 1: By actually being conscious about where I choose to put
Speaker 1: my attention, I shape my experience entirely. So where I'd
Speaker 1: like to start with this is just to read a
Speaker 1: short section from your book and then talk about And
Speaker 1: the reason I want to do this is because one
Speaker 1: of the things that happens a lot is that listeners
Speaker 1: of the show will often say something to me along
Speaker 1: the lines of, well, you have these people on the show,
Speaker 1: and you know, maybe you should have some ordinary people
Speaker 1: on because they have this sense that if somebody has
Speaker 1: written a book or teaches meditation or does that, that
Speaker 1: like they've got this all figured out and there's somehow
Speaker 1: different than the rest of us. And um, your book
Speaker 1: starts off very early by sort of laying that idea
Speaker 1: to waste. And I just want to read this because
Speaker 1: I think it's really important. You said, confession, this book
Speaker 1: was really difficult to write. And when I say difficult,
Speaker 1: I mean crying on the floor while eating a block
Speaker 1: of cheese and calling my mom kind of difficult. It
Speaker 1: was tea and cake with my demons all day long.
Speaker 1: And I just I really wanted to bring that out
Speaker 1: because I just loved how much you talked about how
Speaker 1: difficult doing this was. And I think for a lot
Speaker 1: of people when we run into something difficult. We think, well,
Speaker 1: it's too hard, I can't do it, and you're this
Speaker 1: is a great example of you ran into that difficulty,
Speaker 1: you dealt with it in a skillful way. And on
Speaker 1: the other side of it, there's this beautiful book. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for saying that. It's a beautiful book.
Speaker 1: I I felt in the throes of it while I
Speaker 1: was laying on the floor eating cheese. It could have
Speaker 1: gone in so many different directors, right right, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean my my process. And I had to giggle to
Speaker 1: myself when you know, I heard the phrase ordinary people
Speaker 1: because I think before I had written a book, I
Speaker 1: also sort of had this um kind of pedestal mentality
Speaker 1: of of anybody who publishes a book. Uh, And you know,
Speaker 1: I grew up I talked about this as in the
Speaker 1: book as well. I grew up as as kind of
Speaker 1: like an awkward, introverted kid and really found my solace
Speaker 1: in books. And so authors to me, in my mind,
Speaker 1: are like rock stars. And I thought, before I wrote
Speaker 1: this book, um, you know, there's nothing ordinary about that.
Speaker 1: But while I was in the process, that was one
Speaker 1: of those things that kind of got shaved back. I
Speaker 1: think for the better is is just my expectation of, um,
Speaker 1: you know, what a writer is and what that process
Speaker 1: is like, and um really just brought it down to earth,
Speaker 1: oftentimes in a literal way. Penci landing on the floor
Speaker 1: right right, I love this lane. So the trolls that
Speaker 1: live under the drawbridge between idealism and outcome can and
Speaker 1: have paralyzed far more talented people than myself and probably
Speaker 1: always will. And I think that's a great way of
Speaker 1: saying it, because creating anything, boy is it hard work.
Speaker 1: There can be a lot of slogging away in the
Speaker 1: middle and fighting those trolls that you say. So I
Speaker 1: just really wanted to bring that up to begin with,
Speaker 1: because again, I think a lot of people think that
Speaker 1: there's something different about them from other people who succeed
Speaker 1: or get a book done or all that, and a
Speaker 1: lot of times it's just that the people who get
Speaker 1: it done stay in the trenches with the trolls long enough. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love that you bring that up, and and I
Speaker 1: would agree that has always been my experience. Is really
Speaker 1: just um, you know, it's not that I'm the best
Speaker 1: writer or the most intelligent writer, or have the best
Speaker 1: technique or you know, even that I'm I'm the most
Speaker 1: well trained meditation teacher, or the most present person on earth,
Speaker 1: or the most you know, wisdom holding being Um. I
Speaker 1: think there's something to be said about just tenacity and
Speaker 1: like digging your heels in and saying I love this
Speaker 1: space enough to hang out here even when it's hard. Amen. Okay,
Speaker 1: So let's talk about demons. The title of the book
Speaker 1: is Tea and Cake with our Demons, So let's maybe
Speaker 1: tell the the underlying story of where that comes from,
Speaker 1: and then let's talk about what our demons are. Okay.
Speaker 1: So the underlying story Um, which is such a nice
Speaker 1: juxtaposition next to um, the central parable or the central
Speaker 1: metaphor of the one you feed. The story goes and
Speaker 1: nobody is sure where the story it comes from. It's
Speaker 1: it's very heavily traded in the meditation world and Buddhist circles,
Speaker 1: but nobody is exactly sure where it originates, which I
Speaker 1: did my due diligence and my research and writing this book.
Speaker 1: Some people think that Jack Cornfield was the first person
Speaker 1: to tell this story. Some people point to Tick, not Han.
Speaker 1: It's definitely not in the sutras. It's not the original scripture,
Speaker 1: so we don't know. Um, same with the wolf parable
Speaker 1: nobody really knows. I can't. I can't get an answer. Wow,
Speaker 1: isn't that interesting? Yeah? Yeah. Some people insist its Native Americans.
Speaker 1: Some Native Americans insist its Native American. Others insist it's not.
Speaker 1: Some people say Billy Graham wrote it. I mean, who knows,
Speaker 1: it's I've I've given up, I've just gone. Well, here
Speaker 1: it is. It's a clearly useful storytelling device, as in,
Speaker 1: as is the story you're about to relate. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: almost doesn't matter where it comes from, because there's something
Speaker 1: really resonant about it. So the story of of Tea
Speaker 1: and Cake with Demons um, As the story goes, Mara,
Speaker 1: who is the central demon in Buddhist iconography. Um, he's
Speaker 1: kind of considered like the big bad guy or or
Speaker 1: the Buddhist nemesis will say, um, and there are many
Speaker 1: kind of peripheral demons, but he's like the big demon. Uh.
Speaker 1: And he's oftentimes referred to as being the Lord of
Speaker 1: delusion or um, the personification of of all of our
Speaker 1: kind of misconceptions. And so he comes to town, a
Speaker 1: town that the Buddha was visiting and teaching in, and
Speaker 1: the Buddha's attendants, the monks, the our hats, found out
Speaker 1: that Mara, the big batty had come to town, and
Speaker 1: they come running to the Buddha's door, and as the
Speaker 1: story goes, you know, they're they're kind of like knocking
Speaker 1: on the door and warning the Buddha, you know, mars here,
Speaker 1: mars here, what are we gonna do? What are we
Speaker 1: gonna do? And it's this part of the story that
Speaker 1: I relate to the most because I find there's something
Speaker 1: so familiar about the monks freaking out, essentially, like there's
Speaker 1: this demon here, he's coming for you, he's looking for you.
Speaker 1: What should we do? And they immediately launched into strategy,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, should we Let's let's get out
Speaker 1: of town. Let's get out of town. We know that
Speaker 1: mars here. Mar doesn't know where we are. Let's run,
Speaker 1: let's pack up our begging ball, get out of town.
Speaker 1: And then another monk times in with another strategy, and
Speaker 1: it's basically like no, no, no no, let's go on the offensive.
Speaker 1: Let's let's go get Mara because we know where Mara is,
Speaker 1: Mara doesn't know where we are. Let's go attack first.
Speaker 1: And then another monk times and no, no, no, no no,
Speaker 1: let's hide, Let's just go undercover. We'll stay quiet, will
Speaker 1: never be found. And they're all riled up with their
Speaker 1: strategies for for dealing with this demon. And what the
Speaker 1: Buddha does next, I think is so revolutionary, at least
Speaker 1: it was from me when I first heard it, Um,
Speaker 1: which is to acknowledge all of these strategies for for
Speaker 1: dealing with this demon and instead to say, go go,
Speaker 1: bring Mara to my door and lay out my finest
Speaker 1: china and invite Mara in for tea, not as my enemy,
Speaker 1: but as my esteemed guest, which I think offers such
Speaker 1: a beautiful alternative to the way that we tend to slash.
Speaker 1: I tend to think about me too, Um, think about
Speaker 1: you know, dealing with any kind of of discomfort, never
Speaker 1: even mind a demon, but but any anything that's less
Speaker 1: than preferable or uncomfortable. Is to immediately launching a strategy
Speaker 1: of how am I going to get rid of this
Speaker 1: as quickly as possible with the least amount of effort.
Speaker 1: And it's really radical to say, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: no strategies. Bring him to my door, invitamin esteemed guest,
Speaker 1: invite him for tea. It's a great story. Also reminds
Speaker 1: me of another one from the Buddhist tradition of Miller
Speaker 1: Rapa in his cave and he comes home day and
Speaker 1: finds his cave full of demons, and same thing. He
Speaker 1: starts on his strategies. He first he's you know, he's
Speaker 1: trying to chase him away. You know, I get out
Speaker 1: of here running. They're not going anywhere. And then he's like,
Speaker 1: it gets a little bit wiser. He's like, I'll teach
Speaker 1: him the dharma that will work. Well, no, it doesn't work,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's eventually when he says, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: you guys, all right, it's fine if you want to
Speaker 1: be here, hang out. It's good. And they all disappear
Speaker 1: as the story goes, except for the biggest, baddest, worst demon,
Speaker 1: and that guy is still hanging out, and eventually the
Speaker 1: way the what happens is Miller ra Pa puts his
Speaker 1: head in the demon's mouth, and at that moment it changes.
Speaker 1: And so it's a very similar story. It's this, it's
Speaker 1: this welcoming these these things that we really don't like,
Speaker 1: which is absolutely, as you said, completely counterintuitive. Yeah, so contintuitive,
Speaker 1: right down to putting your head in the demon's mouth,
Speaker 1: right right, And so you know our demons, you say.
Speaker 1: I like this line and just want to read. You say,
Speaker 1: for each of us, this demon material is like our
Speaker 1: own erotic thumb print. It's in our difficult emotions, confused
Speaker 1: states of mind, and the unintegrated aspects of ourselves. Those
Speaker 1: are our demons. So everybody kind of has it sounds
Speaker 1: like you're saying, we've all got kind of our own personal,
Speaker 1: uh collection of demons. Although they they look a lot
Speaker 1: like each other, don't they from person to person? Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's what makes any kind of story like
Speaker 1: this relatable, is that they do look a lot alike.
Speaker 1: You know, their composition might be slightly off, slightly different,
Speaker 1: but there is something really universal about having difficult emotions
Speaker 1: that that we can all agree are are not favorable,
Speaker 1: Like say, um, you know jealousy or shame. Um. I
Speaker 1: don't know anybody in my life who experiences shame as
Speaker 1: being a pleasant thing. Um. So, even though it might
Speaker 1: present differently for all of us, I think that there's something,
Speaker 1: um that we can universally kind of agree on, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's really painful, that's really uncomfortable. You also say what
Speaker 1: comes bound into the forefront in moments of stress. Our
Speaker 1: demons tend to rise to the surface when we feel vulnerable, threatened,
Speaker 1: or hurt. Yeah. Absolutely, And you know, I think that
Speaker 1: is where the kind of unique composition of demon material
Speaker 1: comes in or or kind of like the bio individuality
Speaker 1: of it um experience. That's a great phrase, thank you.
Speaker 1: You know. I also for the past eleven years, I
Speaker 1: have been a student coach at an organization that uses
Speaker 1: that phrase very frequently. UM. So I have picked up
Speaker 1: on the language and just kind of muse it casually
Speaker 1: in my everyday life. You know, for all of us,
Speaker 1: it's different. UM. For me, I, I personally have a
Speaker 1: real strong tendency towards anger. UM is kind of my
Speaker 1: first line of defense whenever I'm experiencing anything kind of
Speaker 1: vulnerable or tender. UM. I tend to get really enraged.
Speaker 1: In exploring my anger, first and foremost, I had to
Speaker 1: let myself actually feel it. I come from, you know,
Speaker 1: a background which I don't think is unique to me,
Speaker 1: particularly as a woman who grew up and in the
Speaker 1: kind of cultural situations that I did. That rage or
Speaker 1: anger is not cute, and it is not to be expressed.
Speaker 1: You can subvert it into something like depression or melancholy,
Speaker 1: and that might be a little bit more kind of
Speaker 1: palatable to the people around you. But you know, having
Speaker 1: intense rage or or anger not acceptable. So I think,
Speaker 1: first and foremost, I had to develop my own relationship
Speaker 1: with anger and actually allow myself to feel it in
Speaker 1: order to be able to sit down and explore, like,
Speaker 1: you know what, why is this my first line of defense?
Speaker 1: Why is this so prominent? UM? And recognizing that it
Speaker 1: always shows up shouldn't say always, but I would say
Speaker 1: the time it shows up in the moments when I
Speaker 1: want to reclaim some kind of power over my vulnerability.
Speaker 1: But there's something really powerful about feeling righteousness and anger
Speaker 1: and rage makes me feel like I'm back in the
Speaker 1: driver's seat, I'm in control, UM. And it's very frequently
Speaker 1: anytime that I'm feeling really tender or heartbroken or vulnerable. UM.
Speaker 1: So I think, you know, going back to that piece
Speaker 1: that you read UM, for each of us, that neurotic
Speaker 1: thumb print is somewhat different. However, I think there is
Speaker 1: a universality to it and also a real opportunity to explore, UM,
Speaker 1: what are most kind of dominant demon material is and
Speaker 1: potentially the wisdom side of it. You talk about some
Speaker 1: of the ways that we usually deal with our demons
Speaker 1: which are not as skillful. So let's run through a
Speaker 1: couple of those real quick, and then let's sort of
Speaker 1: talk about what's a better approach. You hit on a
Speaker 1: little bit of it there, but let's talk about how
Speaker 1: we normally deal with them and the ways that are
Speaker 1: less skillful. Again, just using my own experience, some of
Speaker 1: my favorite techniques, some of my favorite strategies are repression,
Speaker 1: first and foremost anything. I grew up in the Midwest.
Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with repression. I'm very good at it,
Speaker 1: very well. First in it, we're in the Midwest, did
Speaker 1: you grow up? I grew up in Wisconsin, between Wisconsin
Speaker 1: and Ohio. Okay, I'm in Ohio, so mostly Midwest, not
Speaker 1: maybe not quite, depends how you define it, but I
Speaker 1: think very common overall mentality. Yeah, And I shouldn't say
Speaker 1: for all Midwesterners by any stretch of the imagination, but
Speaker 1: you know, and definitely in my family in my town
Speaker 1: high premium on like Midwest nice, where it's like what's wrong, nothing,
Speaker 1: I'm fine, Everything is fine. That sense of you know,
Speaker 1: I want to keep the piece. I don't want to
Speaker 1: burden anyone else with my emotions or with my feelings.
Speaker 1: Um so I'm just gonna you know what, everything is fine,
Speaker 1: Everything is fine. I'm just going to tamp this down.
Speaker 1: I might like pour a little bit of chocolate on
Speaker 1: top of it, like some wine or some Netflix, and
Speaker 1: you know what, now it's it's fine. I don't. I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't feel it anymore. I'm fine. Of course, that
Speaker 1: strategy actually does work. It works, but it isn't sustainable.
Speaker 1: It doesn't work for the long term because at some point,
Speaker 1: you know, it kind of re emerges in the same
Speaker 1: way that when we throw trash away, the trash doesn't
Speaker 1: actually go anywhere. We just bury it underground. You know.
Speaker 1: I think another strategy that might be common, I know,
Speaker 1: it's it's definitely Germane to me is the hot potato method,
Speaker 1: which is kind of like, um, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: want to feel this. This is really uncomfortable. I don't
Speaker 1: like how I'm feeling right now. Here. You take it,
Speaker 1: and it could be any number of people. It could
Speaker 1: be the people that we have identified as being implicated
Speaker 1: in the situation. You know you're the reason why I
Speaker 1: feel this way. So here you take it. You take
Speaker 1: my my anger, my sadness, my jealousy, or a loved one.
Speaker 1: I am notorious for this because I know that my
Speaker 1: loved ones aren't going to go anywhere, and so it's
Speaker 1: sort of like you're in my vicinity. I'm feeling this
Speaker 1: really potent, uncomfortable feeling. Here you take it, and now
Speaker 1: at least I'm not angry by myself. At least now
Speaker 1: I was married to someone like you in a previous,
Speaker 1: previous marriage. Yeah, you know, I think it's it's I
Speaker 1: think it's fairly common. I can't imagine that I'm the
Speaker 1: only who has these strategies, not at all. I stay
Speaker 1: strongly in the repression lane. Um. But that's a definite
Speaker 1: common one. I was just saying to a coaching client today.
Speaker 1: You know, like hurt people hurt people like if we
Speaker 1: don't find a way to work with it, that's what happened. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: because it has to go somewhere, right, right, It's either
Speaker 1: like projectile or underground, but it has to go somewhere. Um.
Speaker 1: Another one that you mentioned that's a favorite of mine
Speaker 1: is to fixate on figuring them out. Oh yeah, I
Speaker 1: would love to hear how that shows up for you.
Speaker 1: You know, three episodes of a podcast that's a joke
Speaker 1: that's I expose partially true. UM. That one sort of
Speaker 1: a fine line, right, because there is something to be
Speaker 1: said for or trying to figure out, solve, deal with,
Speaker 1: and you know, engage with. I think it's the line
Speaker 1: that I didn't hear very often three years ago, but
Speaker 1: I seem to hear all the time now around spiritual
Speaker 1: bypass right. I think a lot of people have gotten
Speaker 1: to a point and I find this a lot in
Speaker 1: work I do with people where we've gotten to the
Speaker 1: point where we're like, okay, I think, I know I'm
Speaker 1: supposed to feel my feelings. That message seems to be
Speaker 1: percolating right getting out. But I think what happens is
Speaker 1: we expect that by feeling our feelings they will immediately disappear,
Speaker 1: and when they don't, that's when we go This strategy sucks.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think so much of it comes
Speaker 1: back to something that you mentioned at the beginning of
Speaker 1: our conversation, which is intention. It is a fine line,
Speaker 1: and I think so much of it comes back to
Speaker 1: um sort of our our reason or purpose or in pension,
Speaker 1: motivation for wanting to to understand these things, or or
Speaker 1: or grappling with our feelings. There's kind of the skillful
Speaker 1: and neurotic side, where the neurotic side is if I
Speaker 1: can figure it out, then I don't have to feel it.
Speaker 1: And the intention there is still like subvert, subvert, subvert,
Speaker 1: get it out of here as quickly as possible. Whereas
Speaker 1: you know, it could look the same on paper, but
Speaker 1: maybe the intention is I really want to understand this
Speaker 1: for my own development and for my own sanity and
Speaker 1: mental emotional health, which carries a very different intention, And
Speaker 1: I would imagine thus outcome right right, I can't recall
Speaker 1: it right now to mind, but somebody was talking about
Speaker 1: like three levels of engaging with emotions, you know, and
Speaker 1: and the the first is sort of like go away,
Speaker 1: you know. The second is sort of like grudging, like
Speaker 1: all right, you can be here, you know, and then
Speaker 1: the third is the befriending. And I think that's what
Speaker 1: we're talking about when we say about go back to
Speaker 1: your your core story about Mara, right like a strategy
Speaker 1: one is like, oh, all right, we gotta do something
Speaker 1: about Mara getting out of here, strategy too, is like,
Speaker 1: all right, I guess we can let him hang around,
Speaker 1: but it's going to ruin the whole thing, you know,
Speaker 1: like our whole events ruined his mars here. And then
Speaker 1: the deeper one, I think is the befriending or the
Speaker 1: the tea and cake or the what do you have
Speaker 1: to teach me? Yeah, that's so lovely. I've never heard
Speaker 1: it phrase that way of these three, these three kind
Speaker 1: of phases or ways of relating, ways of relating to
Speaker 1: uncomfortable feelings, and so one of the things that you
Speaker 1: say later on in the book, and I think it's
Speaker 1: a beautiful place to sort of reorient in the middle
Speaker 1: of this conversation, which is you say, a rule of
Speaker 1: thumb on the path is that questions open things will
Speaker 1: answers shut them down. Something that I have always found
Speaker 1: to be really, I guess, refreshing about meditation practice. And
Speaker 1: you know, I come from a Buddhist background, which which
Speaker 1: definitely kind of informs um the way that I teach
Speaker 1: meditation is that there's a real sense of encouragement not
Speaker 1: to be so eager to find the answer per se um,
Speaker 1: but to really lean into the process, which has always
Speaker 1: been a challenge for me, and maybe that's why I
Speaker 1: gravitate towards it is for me at least there can
Speaker 1: be this this real sense of linear thinking of kind
Speaker 1: of again, if I can figure it out, then I
Speaker 1: don't have to and I don't have to figure it
Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm looking for answers here. It's like
Speaker 1: there's a problem, and you solve a problem and then
Speaker 1: you know X, y Z, and then it's nice and
Speaker 1: tidy and you figure it out. UM. So kind of
Speaker 1: moving over to this sort of process oriented or or
Speaker 1: directional way of thinking UM where the questions may be
Speaker 1: as important, if not even more important than than the
Speaker 1: answer itself, and really learning to hang out in this
Speaker 1: space of just letting the questions lead to more questions
Speaker 1: and more questions and more questions, and and not needing
Speaker 1: to kind of wrap it all up in a in
Speaker 1: a tidy little bow. I think it's really challenging. I've
Speaker 1: always found it challenging for some people and might be
Speaker 1: native and not for me. Has always been a real
Speaker 1: draw to um meditation practice. And you know, these these
Speaker 1: Buddhist teachings is that there is a lot of encouragement
Speaker 1: to just continue to ask these questions. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: the Buddhist tradition seems kind of suffused with with that idea.
Speaker 1: It's you know, zen mind, beginner's mind, right. I always
Speaker 1: butcher the quote, but in the beginner's mind there's many possibilities,
Speaker 1: and the experts there's few, right, And it tends to
Speaker 1: be dealing with a lot of what we need to
Speaker 1: deal with in this world as humans. We need lots
Speaker 1: of possibilities, definitely. And I also understand, I mean, especially
Speaker 1: when things get really uncomfortable um or you know, somewhat painful,
Speaker 1: whether it be you know, our own difficult emotions or
Speaker 1: you know, what we're seeing kind of like socially or
Speaker 1: or globally. I understand the desire to like land on
Speaker 1: something where it's like this is an issue and we
Speaker 1: need solutions. It might just be me. I've always found
Speaker 1: that if I haven't taken enough time to fully understand
Speaker 1: what the challenge is or what the discomfort is, or
Speaker 1: what the difficulty is, and that means actually like hanging
Speaker 1: out with it, you know, going back to what you
Speaker 1: were saying, go away, okay, you can be here, and
Speaker 1: then kind of like third step is befriending. It's the
Speaker 1: befriending process of getting really intimate and cozy and familiar
Speaker 1: with what the challenge is and exploring it from a
Speaker 1: lot of different angles, and you know, inviting it in
Speaker 1: on a regular basis before any kind of skillful or
Speaker 1: informed solutions can emerge. You know, I've always noticed that
Speaker 1: whenever I'm keeping myself at a distance from whatever that
Speaker 1: challenge is, I can throw out solutions that I think
Speaker 1: might work. But but I'm not actually intimate enough with
Speaker 1: the challenge to know the most skillful way to approach it.
Speaker 1: And I am definitely a give me a problem, and
Speaker 1: I will give you a solution very very quickly, and
Speaker 1: then I will get very irritated if that solution is
Speaker 1: not immediately adopted and anybody wants to change it. There
Speaker 1: are times, certainly in my previous career where that served
Speaker 1: me well. Um, But I think even in that career,
Speaker 1: there were times I learned as time went on that
Speaker 1: like allow a little bit more time for different things
Speaker 1: to emerge. I was having this conversation with somebody and
Speaker 1: it was I'm taking this slightly off topic, but not
Speaker 1: not entirely. Where we were talking about how you may
Speaker 1: know what you think the right answer is like two
Speaker 1: minutes into the meeting, and you could just throw that
Speaker 1: answer out and wrap it up. But the thing is
Speaker 1: a big part of what then needs to happen is
Speaker 1: that everybody else then needs to come to believing that
Speaker 1: that's a solution and and they all need to be
Speaker 1: bought in on doing that. And so while it may
Speaker 1: feel like with with this person, we were sort of saying,
Speaker 1: it feels like, well, we know what the answer is
Speaker 1: two minutes in and we spend twenty eight more minutes.
Speaker 1: It feels like that's wasted time. But it's not wasted
Speaker 1: time if the goal is that everybody feel bought in,
Speaker 1: committed and part of the solution. I really recognize that
Speaker 1: because I just again looking at a younger version of myself,
Speaker 1: and not that I'm cured of this. I still have it,
Speaker 1: but it's not as extreme. A younger version of myself
Speaker 1: was always in a hurry, get the solution. Let's go, go, go, go,
Speaker 1: you know, solve fix. I've realized with certain things in life,
Speaker 1: particularly my emotions, that just doesn't work. Some things have
Speaker 1: fairly easy solutions, and you might as well implement them
Speaker 1: and get to them. But lots of things don't. I mean,
Speaker 1: I can't help, but wonder how did that shifts or
Speaker 1: you or what shifted your perspective from you know, find
Speaker 1: the solution as quickly as possible implemented boom done to
Speaker 1: this sort of maybe more exploratory or or process oriented approach,
Speaker 1: probably a whole bunch of things age. I think, with
Speaker 1: just a modicum of effort, we tend to get wiser
Speaker 1: as we get older. I think, at least that's happened
Speaker 1: to me. Maybe it's maybe it's not only age, although
Speaker 1: I think age contributes. I would say I've been doing
Speaker 1: this show a long time, listening to people, reading, seeing
Speaker 1: what works what doesn't work, certainly a deepening meditation practice.
Speaker 1: And I think a certain degree also of some of
Speaker 1: my demons, right that just although they've changed form. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, at one point my demons drove me to
Speaker 1: put a needle in my arm every day, right and
Speaker 1: destroy my life, and that's not what happens anymore. But
Speaker 1: some of those demons are still They're still around, and
Speaker 1: so um I think working with them over a whole
Speaker 1: lot of years has has caused me to just get
Speaker 1: a lot more skillful and how I deal with them um,
Speaker 1: maybe it's just the fact that I keep getting to
Speaker 1: work with them. I told that Miller rape story, and
Speaker 1: what's interesting about it. The part I don't like is
Speaker 1: in the story, he puts his head in the demon's
Speaker 1: mouth and the demon just disappears. That's not my experience, right,
Speaker 1: my experiences, his teeth may get a little bit shorter,
Speaker 1: and he may not drool on me as much, and
Speaker 1: you know, but but he's not gone. You know, my
Speaker 1: demons just haven't vanished. That's not a real great answer,
Speaker 1: but I'm always sort of at a loss when when
Speaker 1: people are like, well, how did you get from there
Speaker 1: to here? I think that it's a lot of moments,
Speaker 1: over a lot of time, of of trying to take
Speaker 1: in a lot of wisdom and knowledge and and be
Speaker 1: patient and learn. And my experiences, life isn't these like
Speaker 1: grand visionary moments where everything changes, although I've had some
Speaker 1: that are pretty profound. It's it's been much more just
Speaker 1: a slow and patient working with these things. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: really appreciate your answer. Thank you so much for that.
Speaker 1: It does speak precisely to what we're talking about here.
Speaker 1: You know that there is potentially the desire to just
Speaker 1: kind of have the plan like like okay, just shortest
Speaker 1: distance from point A to point b um. You know,
Speaker 1: And what I'm hearing from you is that it really
Speaker 1: is a lot of different kind of causes and conditions
Speaker 1: coming together, a multidisciplinary approach, time age, the development allowing
Speaker 1: things to steep, which you know, I know for myself
Speaker 1: and are kind of like, um, hit a button and
Speaker 1: have Amazon deliver it, sort of sort of world that
Speaker 1: we live in. Um, that's like not exactly what I
Speaker 1: want to hear, Like there's something kind of like mmmmm
Speaker 1: about it, like, but I want it now, like where's
Speaker 1: the button? So I really appreciate hearing you say that
Speaker 1: it really actually is a commitment and it's it's time,
Speaker 1: and it's an investment day after day after day after day.
Speaker 1: And to say all that though, does not mean to undersell,
Speaker 1: at least in my mind, the hour and the beauty
Speaker 1: and the transformation that can occur, you know. So I
Speaker 1: think it's both right. I think both those things are there.
Speaker 1: I want to pivot here to a line you had
Speaker 1: that I can't let this interview go by without getting
Speaker 1: out because you're describing the first noble truth of Buddhism. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know that there is suffering in life. There's this
Speaker 1: thing called DUCA and you describe it as a low
Speaker 1: level case of restless everything syndrome, which as someone who
Speaker 1: suffers from restless legs. Actually, that line is so perfect
Speaker 1: because that's what that's what DUKEA can feel like. You know,
Speaker 1: there's just always something that's not quite right, that just
Speaker 1: feels a little jittery, a little shaky, just like if
Speaker 1: I could just get that thing to settle in UM.
Speaker 1: I just love that line, A low level case of
Speaker 1: restless everything syndrome. You know, it's funny. I have restless
Speaker 1: legs too, and that's exactly what I was thinking about
Speaker 1: when I wrote it. It's never quite settled. Yeah, it's fascinating.
Speaker 1: It's fascinating. So I I teach meditation and at mind
Speaker 1: Full Meditation Studios in New York City for the past
Speaker 1: I GUS for four and a half years since they've
Speaker 1: been open. And one of the most common questions that
Speaker 1: I get after class UM And I love the questions
Speaker 1: that come up after class because you know, it's like,
Speaker 1: what is actually happening in your mind when you're meditating? UM,
Speaker 1: your experience is going to be very different from my
Speaker 1: experience and everyone else's experience. UM, one of the most
Speaker 1: common questions that come up is, um, nothing is like wrong,
Speaker 1: per se. And I recognize, like I'm just sitting here
Speaker 1: in this beautiful space that sound proofed with like my
Speaker 1: own mind, and like I'm safe and I'm okay, and
Speaker 1: but but there's still this sense of like and also
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's like kind of boring, and I
Speaker 1: wish it were like a little bit more entertaining or like,
Speaker 1: you know, I kind of just want to check my phone,
Speaker 1: like what if I got that message, or like, you know,
Speaker 1: my leg is itching, or you know, like my my
Speaker 1: mind keeps like going back to this phone call I
Speaker 1: had with my mom earlier today, and I can't kind
Speaker 1: of stop going back there. And and it's like even
Speaker 1: though there's nothing wrong, even though there's no danger and
Speaker 1: we're actually in this beautiful space together with no outside influence,
Speaker 1: there's still something that's like a little kind of dissatisfactory
Speaker 1: about being in our own skin. Oh. I had I
Speaker 1: had lunch with my mother in law a couple of
Speaker 1: weeks ago, and I love my mother in law. I
Speaker 1: got really really lucky with her. She's she's the kind
Speaker 1: of mother in law that like two months into dating
Speaker 1: my now husband, she pulled me aside and she was like, so,
Speaker 1: I really hope this works, but if it doesn't, let's
Speaker 1: stay friends. It's like okay. So she herself as a
Speaker 1: long time meditation practitioner, she started practicing back in the
Speaker 1: sixties seventies. Uh, And we were having lunch and she
Speaker 1: was talking about her dear friend. I will go unnamed,
Speaker 1: but she was about her her dear friend who she
Speaker 1: was like, you know her her exit is to compulsively
Speaker 1: clean and it was like her exit, I've never heard
Speaker 1: that before, and she was like, yeah, you know, your exit.
Speaker 1: Your exit is the thing that you do when it's
Speaker 1: just kind of unbearable to be in your own company
Speaker 1: or like just kind of unbearable to be in your
Speaker 1: own skin. It's like nothing is wrong per se, but
Speaker 1: like it could be like maybe just a little better,
Speaker 1: Like maybe I'll jump online and and like see what's
Speaker 1: happening on Instagram. Like they're like, there's nothing wrong. It's
Speaker 1: just that low level, all pervasive sense of as you said,
Speaker 1: like jitteriness, the desire to take the exit, and so
Speaker 1: that then leads us into sort of the second Noble Truth.
Speaker 1: So yeah, let's just go there, because I don't I
Speaker 1: don't know that I've explored the four Noble truths in
Speaker 1: a lot of detail in this show, although we've had
Speaker 1: tons of Buddhist teachers on. But let's talk briefly about
Speaker 1: you know, we've kind of just described the first noble truth,
Speaker 1: which is that you know, life is dissatisfactory. What what's
Speaker 1: kind of the second? So the second is life is
Speaker 1: dissatisfactory or life whether it's the kind of pain that
Speaker 1: we can point out and say that's painful, or it's
Speaker 1: just kind of that low level restless everything. Uh. Second
Speaker 1: noble truth says, well, there's a good reason for it.
Speaker 1: There's a really good reason why we experience this dissatisfaction
Speaker 1: in life. And it boils down to the three root poisons. Um.
Speaker 1: The very first is clinging or attachment, second is aversion
Speaker 1: or aggression. The third is ignorance. UM. So clinging attachment
Speaker 1: is kind of our our fixation on having just the
Speaker 1: kind of experience that we want to be having. Um.
Speaker 1: Like like our our our preferences and our specificity about
Speaker 1: you know, like if I could just rearrange my experience
Speaker 1: to have the kind of experience that I want to
Speaker 1: be having, then I'll be happy. And a version is
Speaker 1: the kind of like forceful distaste that we often feel
Speaker 1: for anything that is not that or it's it's our
Speaker 1: attachment not getting its way, essentially. And the ignorance part
Speaker 1: of things is that we a don't know that this
Speaker 1: cycle of attachment and aversion is happening all day long.
Speaker 1: There's this primary tension that we're in all day long
Speaker 1: of like I want this, I don't want that. We
Speaker 1: don't know what's happening. And the second part of ignorance
Speaker 1: is that we really deeply self identify with these things.
Speaker 1: We deeply deeply self identify with what it is that
Speaker 1: we like and want and what it is that we
Speaker 1: dislike and even hate. Which I appreciate that that these
Speaker 1: teachings say, you know, if we're experiencing dissatisfaction, there's a
Speaker 1: really good reason for it. And it basically boils down
Speaker 1: to this this kind of primary tension that we find
Speaker 1: ourselves caught in all day long and the way that
Speaker 1: we self identify with it essentially. Right, So the second
Speaker 1: noble truth is that to summarize that a little bit,
Speaker 1: is that the fact that we're always either trying to
Speaker 1: get something that we want or push away something we
Speaker 1: don't want, and we don't see that happening. That's the
Speaker 1: cause of most of our suffering. Yeah, that's it, Which
Speaker 1: is not to say that, um, there's something kind of
Speaker 1: like quote unquote wrong with wanting things or or being
Speaker 1: clear about our desires. However, I think you know, there
Speaker 1: is this split moment, like this hair fracture moment that
Speaker 1: can happen where this this really kind of sincere impulse
Speaker 1: of appreciation, like, yes, I really appreciate this, I like this,
Speaker 1: this is this is pleasurable, this is beautiful. I would
Speaker 1: like more of this. It sort of hardens or it
Speaker 1: gets really kind of like, um, really kind of fixated, right,
Speaker 1: And I think the subtlety you're pointing to there is
Speaker 1: such a such an important point because this has been
Speaker 1: sort of with Buddhism. I've sort of felt this tension
Speaker 1: right along this line. And that tension is that on
Speaker 1: one hand, that seems built into life. Right, if you
Speaker 1: look at the most basic cell, it will move away
Speaker 1: from something that's toxic and move towards food. It's like
Speaker 1: it's embedded in. It seems to me the condition of life,
Speaker 1: and so you hate to set yourself up to be
Speaker 1: in direct conflict with something that is absolutely sort of
Speaker 1: core to life process. So there's there's a subtlety here,
Speaker 1: which is that like, well, of course some of that
Speaker 1: is happening, because that's as as an organism built for survival.
Speaker 1: Of course, that's what you're you're doing. It's really, as
Speaker 1: you said, the extent to which we identify and the
Speaker 1: extent to which we cling. I mean, when you hear
Speaker 1: of these truths there they're the poisons or attachment, aggression,
Speaker 1: and ignorance. And I love the way you put this,
Speaker 1: because the the way we often hear them, and you say,
Speaker 1: in their more inflamed manifestations greed, hatred, and delusion. There's
Speaker 1: this spectrum and and I've always felt this tension as
Speaker 1: and I've been a student of Buddhism for a long
Speaker 1: long time. I've always felt this tension between well, the
Speaker 1: second noble truth saying. I think an unsettle way to
Speaker 1: approach it is, well, you suffer because you want things
Speaker 1: or you don't want things, And well, that's sort of
Speaker 1: also true. That is also kind of the way life
Speaker 1: is wired. And so I've always found that an interesting
Speaker 1: tension that that runs its way through everything that I'm
Speaker 1: doing and and my practice. That's so wonderfully said, and
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you pointed that out, that you
Speaker 1: know there can be this sense of like, well, you're
Speaker 1: suffering because you want things, And I know where my
Speaker 1: mind immediately goes when it's when it's framed that way,
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, well, then I just shouldn't want things,
Speaker 1: and I'm bad for wanting things. And maybe that makes
Speaker 1: me like an unspiritual person because I have a lot
Speaker 1: of desires all all the time. I want things all
Speaker 1: the time, and that that makes me like a bad
Speaker 1: practitioner for a bad, bad spiritual person. So let's move
Speaker 1: on then, the third noble truth? Then, how would you
Speaker 1: phrase that third noble truth? Um is the potential for cessation?
Speaker 1: Where you know we're going in progression here of okay,
Speaker 1: life includes dissatisfaction on a lot of different levels. There's
Speaker 1: a really good reason for that dissatisfaction. Here they are
Speaker 1: three root poisons, and the third says there's a way out.
Speaker 1: So good news, this is the good news is that
Speaker 1: if we're having this experience and there's a cause for
Speaker 1: this experience, and there's also a way to end that experience. UM.
Speaker 1: And so it begins to point to the potential of
Speaker 1: releasing suffering or releasing dissatisfaction, and then of course fourth
Speaker 1: Noble Truth brings us right into the path which Fourth
Speaker 1: Noble Truth is. It's always it always kind of reminds
Speaker 1: me of like one of those Russian nesting dolls, where
Speaker 1: we get to the fourth Noble Truth and it's like, actually,
Speaker 1: there's eight of them in here, more things. UM. And
Speaker 1: the way that I oftentimes think about the Fourth Noble
Speaker 1: Truth or or the eight Fold Path is that it
Speaker 1: really is this kind of path in a sense of
Speaker 1: self respect, of self respect or or self worth or
Speaker 1: self love, of really taking responsibility for ourselves, taking responsibility
Speaker 1: for our mind and our emotions, and UM saying you know, Okay,
Speaker 1: I have this life, and I want to be a
Speaker 1: really thoughtful, skillful steward of my life. So how do
Speaker 1: I go about doing that? Um? And I think the
Speaker 1: Fourth Noble Truth Eightfold Path really kind of sets up
Speaker 1: some really nice parameters without being too kind of like
Speaker 1: dogmatic or or closed off. It's kind of like, are
Speaker 1: some guidelines and we're going to leave it to you
Speaker 1: as sort of a self aware human being who is
Speaker 1: working with your own minded emotions to navigate the gray areas.
Speaker 1: And I think that's where you going back to what
Speaker 1: we were talking about, this sense of questions opening things,
Speaker 1: and this real encouragement for for curiosity UM comes into play.
Speaker 1: Because there is no definitive answer UM, it's left in
Speaker 1: our own hands to to kind of navigate the most
Speaker 1: skillful path, recognizing that it's a lot of gray area.
Speaker 1: Love the way you phrase that that it's up to
Speaker 1: us to find and navigate the right path. So we
Speaker 1: are at the end of our time for this conversation.
Speaker 1: You and I are going to talk a little bit
Speaker 1: more in the post show conversation, and one of the
Speaker 1: main things we're going to talk about is how much
Speaker 1: we suffer when we compare ourselves to other people. Your
Speaker 1: realization that Dolli Llama has haters, which which is great,
Speaker 1: and so we're gonna we're gonna tie all that together
Speaker 1: in the post show conversation. Listen as you can get
Speaker 1: access to that as well as a exclusive mini episode
Speaker 1: with me each week where I do a teaching, a
Speaker 1: song and a poem, as well as lots of other
Speaker 1: good things and the joy of supporting something you love
Speaker 1: by going to one new feed dot net slash joint. Well, Adriana,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the show. I
Speaker 1: really appreciated your book. I really appreciate the conversation and
Speaker 1: getting to spend some time together. Eric, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for having me. What a joy. Thanks for Thanks
Speaker 1: for the conversation. Okay bye. If what you just heard
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