WEBVTT - Noah Kahan 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:15.956 Pushkin. 0:00:20.236 --> 0:00:22.076 Twenty twenty three has been a hell of a year 0:00:22.076 --> 0:00:25.516 for singer songwriter Noah Kahn. Just three years ago, he 0:00:25.556 --> 0:00:28.636 started uploading snippets of his indie folks songs to TikTok 0:00:28.916 --> 0:00:31.236 while waiting out the pandemic at his dad's house in 0:00:31.356 --> 0:00:35.756 rural Vermont. Those songs quickly caught fire across social media 0:00:35.836 --> 0:00:39.876 and eventually turned into Noah's most recent album, Stick Season, 0:00:40.476 --> 0:00:45.516 and after releasing collaborations with Casey Musgraves, Hosier and Post Malone, 0:00:45.876 --> 0:00:50.196 Noah's amassed four billion streams globally. It's no surprise that 0:00:50.396 --> 0:00:53.316 last month he was nominated for the Best New Artist Grammy. 0:00:54.116 --> 0:00:56.916 But while Noah's often called the breakout star of the year, 0:00:57.196 --> 0:01:00.756 he's actually not a music industry rookie. He signed up 0:01:00.756 --> 0:01:04.796 Republic Records in twenty seventeen, initially working as a songwriter 0:01:04.916 --> 0:01:07.756 in New York, where he learned the intricacies of writing 0:01:07.836 --> 0:01:11.356 pop music. It wasn't until the music industry shut down 0:01:11.396 --> 0:01:13.636 in twenty twenty that he was able to apply those 0:01:13.676 --> 0:01:16.596 techniques he learned as a songwriter to his own work 0:01:16.756 --> 0:01:20.676 as a singer songwriter. On today's episode, Lea Rose talks 0:01:20.676 --> 0:01:25.156 to Noa Khan about navigating his often overwhelming newfound success 0:01:25.596 --> 0:01:28.036 and how he feels about being labeled the new quote 0:01:28.116 --> 0:01:32.756 unquote sensitive Woodsman singer songwriter de Jore. Noah also opens 0:01:32.836 --> 0:01:35.996 up about initially being embarrassed about his singing voice and 0:01:36.156 --> 0:01:39.196 his plans for evolving his sound on his next album, 0:01:41.916 --> 0:01:45.156 This is Broken Record. Liner notes to the digital age, 0:01:45.316 --> 0:01:49.876 I'm justin Mitchman. Here's Lea Rose's conversation with Noah Khan. 0:01:50.876 --> 0:01:54.836 When you were writing Stick Season, did you have any 0:01:55.036 --> 0:01:57.716 overarching guiding principles? 0:01:58.556 --> 0:01:58.756 You know? 0:01:59.196 --> 0:02:01.876 I think like in hindsight, it's always easy to say, 0:02:01.916 --> 0:02:05.276 like I wanted to write about loneliness during a lonely time, 0:02:05.436 --> 0:02:09.036 or I think I had been feeling lonely for a 0:02:09.196 --> 0:02:10.596 lot of my life and that was just kind of 0:02:10.596 --> 0:02:12.716 finding its way into my music. 0:02:12.756 --> 0:02:15.116 And I was in Vermont and that found this way 0:02:15.116 --> 0:02:15.676 into my music. 0:02:15.796 --> 0:02:18.596 I definitely didn't walk in with any you know, intention 0:02:18.796 --> 0:02:21.076 of like a theme. Besides that, I wanted to write 0:02:21.076 --> 0:02:22.596 about what I was going through at that point in 0:02:22.636 --> 0:02:25.996 my life and my relationship with my home state and 0:02:26.076 --> 0:02:28.676 my hometown, with my family and with myself. At that time, 0:02:28.716 --> 0:02:31.796 it was like kind of just in real life on 0:02:31.836 --> 0:02:35.076 my mind and really like a pervasive part of my 0:02:35.116 --> 0:02:38.636 experience day to day. And I think what my overarching 0:02:38.636 --> 0:02:40.556 goal was just to have an outlet for that, and 0:02:40.596 --> 0:02:42.636 I ended up being the start of, you know, the 0:02:42.676 --> 0:02:44.076 concept for the record essentially. 0:02:45.076 --> 0:02:47.036 And so what was your situation, Like what was a 0:02:47.076 --> 0:02:51.756 setup during the pandemic? Were you suddenly like back home 0:02:51.796 --> 0:02:54.156 in the house that you grew up in with your family, Like. 0:02:54.356 --> 0:02:55.716 Yeah, pretty much like I. 0:02:55.876 --> 0:02:57.516 You know, I grew up in New Hampshire and Vermont, 0:02:57.516 --> 0:02:59.396 and we moved to this place in Vermont when I 0:02:59.476 --> 0:03:01.676 was halfway through high school, and so it kind of 0:03:01.716 --> 0:03:04.156 was like my childhood home in many ways. I we'd 0:03:04.156 --> 0:03:06.436 had the property my entire life since long before I 0:03:06.476 --> 0:03:07.916 was born. So it was a place that I was, 0:03:08.156 --> 0:03:10.556 you know, considered much at home or like, you know, 0:03:10.956 --> 0:03:12.636 a very familiar place for me that I had a 0:03:12.636 --> 0:03:15.156 lot of, you know, my memories and different attachments too. 0:03:15.676 --> 0:03:19.076 I was living in New York and was like really 0:03:19.476 --> 0:03:22.636 lost at that point in my life, like just kind 0:03:22.676 --> 0:03:26.036 of burning out pretty hard with music, and I for 0:03:26.076 --> 0:03:28.236 some reason never felt like a New Yorker I lived there. 0:03:28.276 --> 0:03:30.116 I mean, you know, I only lived there for at 0:03:30.156 --> 0:03:32.476 that point for about a year, but I never felt 0:03:32.476 --> 0:03:32.996 like I belonged. 0:03:32.996 --> 0:03:34.556 I felt like it was my first day there. Every 0:03:34.596 --> 0:03:35.676 single day I was in the city. 0:03:36.676 --> 0:03:39.556 And you know that the pandemic, you know that that 0:03:39.596 --> 0:03:41.996 one week in March, I remember, you know, getting one 0:03:41.996 --> 0:03:44.796 of those hoax texts. I was like, the governor of 0:03:44.836 --> 0:03:46.836 the mayor is about to close the borders to the city, 0:03:46.876 --> 0:03:48.676 Like you need to get out and keep pressing the link. 0:03:48.716 --> 0:03:50.436 And it's like it was actually a picture of a 0:03:50.436 --> 0:03:52.116 guy's dick, is what it was when pressed the link. 0:03:52.156 --> 0:03:55.636 But I I I had I pressed the link. I mean, 0:03:55.636 --> 0:03:57.316 my older brother was in town. We were like fucket. 0:03:57.396 --> 0:03:59.756 We literally ran for the hills and drove to Vermont 0:03:59.756 --> 0:04:01.636 that night, got home. We're like, okay, like they weren't 0:04:01.676 --> 0:04:03.396 closing the borders, but it probably was a good time 0:04:03.436 --> 0:04:03.956 to get back. 0:04:04.316 --> 0:04:06.916 So we we got home and uh, we don't. 0:04:06.956 --> 0:04:08.516 I don't go back to New York until I moved 0:04:08.516 --> 0:04:10.556 my stuff out of August of twenty twenty, and I 0:04:10.636 --> 0:04:12.916 was home for about a year and a half, so 0:04:13.036 --> 0:04:15.196 I really I went right back to the my parents' house. 0:04:15.276 --> 0:04:17.476 My parents split up and it became my dad's house 0:04:17.636 --> 0:04:20.556 and we have like a barn with like a little 0:04:20.596 --> 0:04:23.156 studio a little like an apartment above it. 0:04:23.676 --> 0:04:25.756 And my dad was like, hey, like while you're figuring 0:04:25.756 --> 0:04:26.676 what you want to do out. 0:04:26.556 --> 0:04:28.716 And like, well, if the world is figuring what's going 0:04:28.796 --> 0:04:31.116 to happen out, like you can stay up there rent free. 0:04:31.116 --> 0:04:32.996 And so my dad let me stay up in the 0:04:32.996 --> 0:04:35.436 barn and that kind of became like where I made 0:04:35.516 --> 0:04:36.436 up on music and where I. 0:04:36.356 --> 0:04:39.716 Did these Instagram live streams and where I. 0:04:38.956 --> 0:04:41.996 You know, started to really like digest my experience and 0:04:41.996 --> 0:04:42.996 start making the album. 0:04:43.236 --> 0:04:44.756 How old were you at that point? 0:04:46.116 --> 0:04:48.556 So twenty twenty I was, This is twenty twenty three. 0:04:48.596 --> 0:04:50.556 I'm twenty six. Now this is why I should have 0:04:50.556 --> 0:04:52.396 gone to college. Kind of do the math in my head. 0:04:52.596 --> 0:04:55.116 It's literally twenty six. Mine is three. I was twenty two, 0:04:55.196 --> 0:04:57.236 twenty three years old. I think I was twenty three 0:04:57.236 --> 0:04:58.236 at the start of the pandemic. 0:04:58.316 --> 0:05:00.996 Did that feel at that point, like moving back home? Like, 0:05:00.996 --> 0:05:01.996 how did that feel? 0:05:02.716 --> 0:05:06.356 Honestly? Like it felt amazing? 0:05:06.476 --> 0:05:09.956 Yeah, And I hate to like to be positively about 0:05:09.956 --> 0:05:12.636 what was like such a terrible time just generally for 0:05:12.716 --> 0:05:16.396 the world and for millions of people, but and I 0:05:16.476 --> 0:05:18.316 kind of a fucked up way like it was just 0:05:18.916 --> 0:05:22.956 it felt like this escape from this really monotonous style 0:05:22.996 --> 0:05:25.996 of life I was living, and it felt so refreshing. 0:05:26.316 --> 0:05:28.676 I think like I spent so much of my time 0:05:28.796 --> 0:05:30.356 as a musician and as someone that had like a 0:05:30.436 --> 0:05:34.476 very untraditional job, feeling like I'm living like an imposter's life, 0:05:34.516 --> 0:05:36.676 Like everyone's going to work and I'm kind of like 0:05:36.716 --> 0:05:38.796 grabbing a coffee at two pm and started to try 0:05:38.796 --> 0:05:41.236 to write songs. Yeah, stepping away and going on my 0:05:41.236 --> 0:05:43.076 phone for two hours. And I always kind of felt 0:05:43.116 --> 0:05:45.796 like I was moving in slow motion and everybody was 0:05:45.836 --> 0:05:49.516 moving at regular speed, and suddenly, like the pandemic felt 0:05:49.516 --> 0:05:53.356 like it brought everybody to the same speed for one second. 0:05:53.636 --> 0:05:55.716 And that's a very rare thing. And for me, it 0:05:55.836 --> 0:05:58.516 was so rare to feel connected to people that were 0:05:58.556 --> 0:06:01.596 around me. I felt this disconnected from everyone, from my 0:06:01.676 --> 0:06:04.676 friends and from my family, and from even other musicians, 0:06:04.676 --> 0:06:07.276 because I couldn't relate to my friends because they weren't 0:06:07.356 --> 0:06:09.756 musicians and they were working, you know, different jobs than 0:06:09.796 --> 0:06:12.876 a different you know, equally complicated and difficult but abstract 0:06:12.956 --> 0:06:14.676 in me lifestyle, and I. 0:06:14.596 --> 0:06:16.756 Couldn't relate to the musicians because for some reason. 0:06:16.836 --> 0:06:19.476 It always like talking to the musicians always created this 0:06:19.596 --> 0:06:22.156 feeling of anxiety within me, like just this feeling of 0:06:22.836 --> 0:06:25.156 other nis, just feeling of feeling left out of some 0:06:25.156 --> 0:06:27.436 shared experience that all the other musicians were having together. 0:06:27.956 --> 0:06:31.156 Whether that's just the insecurity, probably, but I still felt it, 0:06:31.196 --> 0:06:34.076 and so I felt like I was stuck between two 0:06:34.156 --> 0:06:37.556 different styles of life. And when the dynamic hit in 0:06:37.596 --> 0:06:39.876 that first few months of my family being back home 0:06:39.876 --> 0:06:41.196 and everyone being like, what the fuck are we going 0:06:41.276 --> 0:06:43.196 to do? And the musicians being like what the fuck 0:06:43.196 --> 0:06:45.556 are we gonna do? And the finance and tech people 0:06:45.756 --> 0:06:46.876 being like, what the fuck are we gonna do? It 0:06:46.916 --> 0:06:49.436 just felt unifying in like a weird way, and it 0:06:49.476 --> 0:06:51.996 made me feel like I finally had some even footing 0:06:52.196 --> 0:06:55.756 with the world, and that was strangely really nice for me, 0:06:55.876 --> 0:06:58.596 despite how challenging it was for other reasons. 0:06:59.036 --> 0:07:01.516 Is it different now the way that you feel towards 0:07:01.756 --> 0:07:04.396 other musicians. Have you found people that you're able to 0:07:04.436 --> 0:07:05.676 relate to more? 0:07:06.556 --> 0:07:07.916 Yes? And I think a lot. 0:07:08.076 --> 0:07:11.356 It's it's it's been a result of me making the 0:07:11.436 --> 0:07:15.396 effort and accepting that I might feel anxious or insecure 0:07:15.516 --> 0:07:17.996 and trying to power through that. Because there's not a 0:07:18.036 --> 0:07:20.356 lot of people that relate to what's going on in 0:07:20.756 --> 0:07:22.476 my life right now, and some of the only people 0:07:22.516 --> 0:07:24.396 I can relate to are people that I've been through it, 0:07:24.436 --> 0:07:26.796 and I had to force myself to be willing to 0:07:26.836 --> 0:07:29.796 hear them and to accept their perspectives and to try. 0:07:29.636 --> 0:07:31.956 To learn from it. It all came for me, you know. 0:07:32.116 --> 0:07:36.476 It was all me facing the insecurity of trying to 0:07:36.516 --> 0:07:38.276 relate to people that I've typically had a hard time 0:07:38.276 --> 0:07:40.236 relating to, and it's made it a lot easier to 0:07:40.356 --> 0:07:43.036 kind of have those conversations now. Having those first few 0:07:43.036 --> 0:07:44.876 conversations and being willing to sit down and talk to 0:07:44.916 --> 0:07:47.956 somebody and be vulnerable with somebody that you know might 0:07:48.036 --> 0:07:50.236 understand it and been a really cool and eye opening 0:07:50.236 --> 0:07:52.396 experience for me this past year and a half two years. 0:07:52.836 --> 0:07:55.156 It's been very helpful, in fact, very crucial in a 0:07:55.636 --> 0:07:56.156 lot of ways. 0:07:56.476 --> 0:07:58.796 Did it change the way that you wrote songs when 0:07:58.796 --> 0:07:59.556 you were back home? 0:08:00.556 --> 0:08:00.916 It did? 0:08:00.996 --> 0:08:02.996 It really did, because I was writing songs in New 0:08:03.076 --> 0:08:04.636 York just because I wanted to fill time and I 0:08:04.636 --> 0:08:06.116 want to feel like I had a job, and I 0:08:06.236 --> 0:08:08.076 was You could hear it in the songs. 0:08:08.116 --> 0:08:11.636 It was you know, pop songwriting. 0:08:11.076 --> 0:08:13.836 Is just there's a real formula to it, for better 0:08:13.876 --> 0:08:15.956 or for worse, and a lot of sessions, you know, 0:08:16.716 --> 0:08:19.516 you sit down and you talk to somebody and you 0:08:19.596 --> 0:08:21.636 pretend like you're having a normal conversation, but you're both 0:08:21.676 --> 0:08:24.956 looking for a hook and what everyone's saying, or a concept, 0:08:24.996 --> 0:08:27.636 and then you identify it and sit down and write 0:08:27.636 --> 0:08:30.916 about it and fulfill the concept and write a verse 0:08:30.916 --> 0:08:32.356 and a chorus, and a verse and a bridge and 0:08:32.356 --> 0:08:34.916 a drop chorus and a chorus, and it just there 0:08:34.996 --> 0:08:37.156 is a real formula to it that for me was. 0:08:37.116 --> 0:08:39.116 Becoming monotonous and my numbing. 0:08:39.116 --> 0:08:41.156 And by the time I got home to Vermont, I 0:08:41.276 --> 0:08:43.716 was so sure that the music industry would never come 0:08:43.756 --> 0:08:45.236 back that I was like, I'm gonna write the way 0:08:45.276 --> 0:08:47.876 I like to write, and that is, you know, not 0:08:47.916 --> 0:08:50.636 having a concept, sitting down and writing about what I'm feeling, 0:08:51.076 --> 0:08:53.236 trying to come up with stories, and trying to be 0:08:53.716 --> 0:08:55.756 creative in a way that doesn't stick to a certain 0:08:55.796 --> 0:08:58.356 concept that might not even relate to me, just writing 0:08:58.356 --> 0:09:00.836 about anything that I feel in the moment, stepping away 0:09:00.836 --> 0:09:02.436 if I don't want to fucking do it anymore, and 0:09:02.476 --> 0:09:05.076 coming back a week later and sitting down with feeling 0:09:05.076 --> 0:09:08.396 inspired again, going on my own pace, and being willing 0:09:08.436 --> 0:09:11.076 to just make whatever made me happy in that moment. 0:09:11.236 --> 0:09:14.676 It's very difficult to control a song in a songwriting 0:09:14.716 --> 0:09:17.516 session in that way, because you're working with people that 0:09:17.556 --> 0:09:20.236 I would have motivations of their own and have schedules 0:09:20.276 --> 0:09:22.756 of their own, and you really have to To me, 0:09:22.836 --> 0:09:25.596 it felt like I was sacrificing some of the process 0:09:25.636 --> 0:09:28.676 for other people, and that was a terrible feeling. 0:09:28.996 --> 0:09:31.196 Yeah, were you working with like big named artists, like 0:09:31.236 --> 0:09:33.716 anyone we would know? Are you allowed to say. 0:09:33.596 --> 0:09:35.356 I was working with incredible songwriters? 0:09:35.436 --> 0:09:37.676 Yeah, incredible songwriters, some of the best in the world 0:09:37.716 --> 0:09:41.636 who have written beautiful songs that are clearly heartfelt and 0:09:41.636 --> 0:09:44.476 full of emotion and full of grounded real feelings and 0:09:44.596 --> 0:09:47.036 have written huge hits. You know, I could have written 0:09:47.036 --> 0:09:49.236 with Max Martin. It would have sounded like I made 0:09:49.236 --> 0:09:50.956 it with my next door neighbor or something. You know, 0:09:51.036 --> 0:09:53.636 it didn't. Everything I was making was colored by my 0:09:53.756 --> 0:09:58.276 own burnout right, and by my lack of passion and 0:09:58.316 --> 0:10:01.796 my feeling of you know, exhaustion of being a songwriter. 0:10:02.076 --> 0:10:04.196 It was like every song to me, you had the 0:10:04.196 --> 0:10:06.916 same color to it, and I think that it's really 0:10:07.116 --> 0:10:09.196 like a symptom of depression in a lot of ways, Like, 0:10:09.556 --> 0:10:12.916 you know, every single thing feels the same. And I 0:10:12.916 --> 0:10:14.276 look back at some of these songs, like, you know, 0:10:14.316 --> 0:10:16.316 those songs actually had a lot of life in them 0:10:16.316 --> 0:10:17.436 in a lot of ways, and some of those songs 0:10:17.436 --> 0:10:19.196 are really great. And I listen back a like proud 0:10:19.236 --> 0:10:20.716 of those songs, more proud than I ever was in 0:10:20.756 --> 0:10:22.436 a moment, and I think it was just, you know, 0:10:22.556 --> 0:10:24.676 it was really a statement about my state of my 0:10:24.836 --> 0:10:26.916 state of my mind and my emotions of that time 0:10:26.996 --> 0:10:29.836 that made those songs feel, you know, the same, regardless 0:10:29.836 --> 0:10:30.596 of what I'm working with. 0:10:31.156 --> 0:10:34.276 Would you're writing a new song, do you have an 0:10:34.356 --> 0:10:38.156 idea of where the inspiration comes from? Like does it 0:10:38.156 --> 0:10:40.436 feel like it comes from outside of you or does 0:10:40.476 --> 0:10:43.996 it feel like it's more internal and making its way out. 0:10:44.636 --> 0:10:46.676 Yeah, I think it's more internal and making its way out. 0:10:46.716 --> 0:10:50.116 It's very rarely a conscious thing. I feel as if 0:10:50.156 --> 0:10:53.156 I'm writing because it feels good in the moment, and 0:10:53.196 --> 0:10:54.836 I look back and I'm like, oh, that's because of 0:10:54.876 --> 0:10:56.916 that thing that happened, or that's because I've been feeling 0:10:56.956 --> 0:10:59.476 like this for the past few weeks, and I don't 0:10:59.476 --> 0:11:01.996 realize it until after, which is kind of fun because 0:11:02.036 --> 0:11:03.516 it feels like you don't have to do the work 0:11:03.556 --> 0:11:06.076 of feeling bad about how you're feeling and then making 0:11:06.076 --> 0:11:07.356 the song. It's like you just make the song and 0:11:07.356 --> 0:11:09.476 then you think about how bad you're feeling later. It's 0:11:09.556 --> 0:11:12.196 kind of a nice It's kind of like a get 0:11:12.196 --> 0:11:14.236 out of jail free card for feeling emotions, which is 0:11:14.316 --> 0:11:14.756 kind of cool. 0:11:15.116 --> 0:11:17.356 And how quickly does it cause relief? Is it like 0:11:17.436 --> 0:11:20.036 as soon as you put a line down, do you 0:11:20.076 --> 0:11:22.396 start to feel a little bit of the pressure release? 0:11:23.356 --> 0:11:23.996 No, totally. 0:11:24.036 --> 0:11:26.116 I think just one line can make the whole difference. 0:11:26.196 --> 0:11:27.996 And then there are songs that I've heard that I'm like, 0:11:28.036 --> 0:11:29.476 I don't even like the rest of the song. Is 0:11:29.556 --> 0:11:32.756 that one line that I'm so connected to And that 0:11:32.796 --> 0:11:34.276 happens with me all the time if I write a 0:11:34.676 --> 0:11:36.636 you know, sometimes I'm like, this verse is fine, I 0:11:36.676 --> 0:11:38.116 might as well keep going because it has a good 0:11:38.116 --> 0:11:40.156 melody or a good core progression, and then the chorus 0:11:40.156 --> 0:11:40.516 and like. 0:11:40.476 --> 0:11:41.436 This is why it's good. 0:11:41.476 --> 0:11:44.156 That line is enough for need to love the whole song, 0:11:44.636 --> 0:11:47.916 and it really does create like an instant sense of relief, 0:11:47.956 --> 0:11:50.716 to feel, to feel that a line can, even just 0:11:50.836 --> 0:11:53.476 five words, can encapsulate how you're actually feeling. It's cool. 0:11:53.516 --> 0:11:54.796 That's what's so special about songwriting. 0:11:54.876 --> 0:11:55.436 That's so great. 0:11:55.476 --> 0:11:57.676 You never know when that relief is gonna come, and 0:11:57.716 --> 0:12:00.516 it's exciting, and it's kind of like gambling, you know, 0:12:00.516 --> 0:12:02.196 because you know you have to put so much emotional, 0:12:02.836 --> 0:12:04.676 so much emotion into something, and you don't know how 0:12:04.676 --> 0:12:06.276 it's gonna turn out. But when it hits, it's like 0:12:06.316 --> 0:12:09.436 the jackpot of feeling relief and feeling excited and feeling. 0:12:09.236 --> 0:12:12.516 Uh, satisfied. Is is worth that that kind of torture 0:12:12.556 --> 0:12:13.316 of making amusing? 0:12:13.716 --> 0:12:16.796 Does it really feel like torture? No, seems like it 0:12:16.796 --> 0:12:18.036 comes fairly easily to you. 0:12:18.636 --> 0:12:22.396 Yeah, I'm not working in a fucking coal mine. Uh. 0:12:22.596 --> 0:12:24.356 I always try to do care. Sometimes I find myself 0:12:24.356 --> 0:12:26.596 talking about songwriting. I'm like, I sound like a fucking asshole, 0:12:26.636 --> 0:12:29.836 Like this stuff is not that hard. What's challenging, uh, 0:12:29.876 --> 0:12:32.956 And what makes it feel like torture sometimes is the 0:12:33.036 --> 0:12:35.356 constant comparison. I think if I had like the Men 0:12:35.396 --> 0:12:37.996 in Black thing where you like make people forget that 0:12:38.036 --> 0:12:39.876 stick thing that like makes people forget their like what 0:12:40.036 --> 0:12:40.476 just happened? 0:12:40.756 --> 0:12:42.196 If I have one of those, and I can. 0:12:42.116 --> 0:12:44.876 Erase all the context of my songwriting career, my life, 0:12:45.396 --> 0:12:47.756 I think I would love songwriting so much more. I 0:12:47.796 --> 0:12:51.156 always find myself comparing whatever I'm doing in the moment 0:12:51.316 --> 0:12:54.436 to what I've made before. You know, the comparison. It's 0:12:54.476 --> 0:12:56.876 a thief of all joy. Yeah, he's the most successful 0:12:56.916 --> 0:12:58.956 thief in the fucking history of my life. Like, it's 0:12:58.956 --> 0:13:02.076 just always I'm always comparing myself, and so you kind 0:13:02.076 --> 0:13:03.836 of are already losing when you do that. And I 0:13:03.876 --> 0:13:05.876 feel like I set myself up for failure in that way, 0:13:05.916 --> 0:13:10.316 and it requires a real will to just sit in 0:13:10.316 --> 0:13:13.476 that feeling of comparing herself and to let it go 0:13:14.396 --> 0:13:16.476 to make the songwriting and feel exciting and fun. And 0:13:16.556 --> 0:13:20.076 I've gotten better at that, but it's still something I practiced. 0:13:20.476 --> 0:13:22.316 What do you think is the best song you've ever written? 0:13:22.596 --> 0:13:24.556 And you're comparing in your mind, like, what are you 0:13:24.596 --> 0:13:25.556 putting that up against? 0:13:26.636 --> 0:13:28.756 I think right now, I think my favorite song I've 0:13:28.756 --> 0:13:33.396 ever made would be Homesick, because when I listened back 0:13:33.436 --> 0:13:35.956 to that song, I'm not only excited about the lyrics 0:13:36.036 --> 0:13:39.076 and about the story, but also some of the risks 0:13:39.076 --> 0:13:42.556 that I took in the instrumentation, the musicality of it. 0:13:42.476 --> 0:13:44.036 It was one of the first songs I had that 0:13:44.116 --> 0:13:45.836 was like rocking and like let the band play a 0:13:45.836 --> 0:13:48.676 little bit and allowed states to happen in a way 0:13:48.716 --> 0:13:50.596 that still felt compelling. A lot of times I just 0:13:50.676 --> 0:13:53.116 stuff words over everything so that there's no one can 0:13:53.156 --> 0:13:54.836 find out that I'm playing the same three chords over 0:13:54.876 --> 0:13:57.476 and over again. But with Homesick, I felt like I 0:13:57.476 --> 0:14:00.236 allowed myself to just take a risk that people were 0:14:00.236 --> 0:14:02.036 invested enough in the song that I could have some 0:14:02.076 --> 0:14:06.556 moments to be musical and to be experimental musically in 0:14:06.636 --> 0:14:09.036 the context of my own music, by the way, experiment 0:14:09.716 --> 0:14:11.956 and allow that to live and to not feel like 0:14:11.996 --> 0:14:14.076 I need to smother that with lyrics so. 0:14:13.956 --> 0:14:15.836 That song I'm really excited to buy another song. 0:14:16.716 --> 0:14:18.916 A lot of times I find the songs that I 0:14:18.956 --> 0:14:20.516 am most proud of are the ones that I still 0:14:20.516 --> 0:14:22.996 relate two years later. A song like young Blood is 0:14:23.076 --> 0:14:25.516 just a song I wrote when I was eighteen or 0:14:25.596 --> 0:14:28.516 nineteen years old, and I still feel like I connect 0:14:28.516 --> 0:14:31.356 to those lyrics so much, and they still feel mature 0:14:31.356 --> 0:14:33.436 to me and exciting to me. And that's always cool, 0:14:33.596 --> 0:14:35.396 you know, to look back at a song that I 0:14:35.396 --> 0:14:37.716 was written eight years ago and to feel like it 0:14:37.756 --> 0:14:39.036 was a representation of who I am. 0:14:39.276 --> 0:14:41.076 You know at twenty six, What. 0:14:40.916 --> 0:14:42.756 Part in particular are you thinking? 0:14:42.836 --> 0:14:42.996 Eh? 0:14:43.596 --> 0:14:45.676 I think from like a song running standpoint, I really 0:14:45.756 --> 0:14:48.316 like just the melody choices in that song, Like I 0:14:48.396 --> 0:14:52.116 like that, you know, ascending melody that comes into falsetto 0:14:52.396 --> 0:14:54.356 and comes out. You know, it's not like a vocal 0:14:54.436 --> 0:14:56.916 run that someone's trying to be, like an impressive vocal run, 0:14:56.956 --> 0:14:58.756 you know, or you're trying to like flex your vocal muscle. 0:14:58.756 --> 0:14:59.276 It's really just like. 0:14:59.276 --> 0:15:01.916 An emotional vocal run that I thought was really you know, 0:15:02.076 --> 0:15:04.276 it's funny talking about myself in the past. 0:15:04.076 --> 0:15:04.876 I thought was clever. 0:15:05.236 --> 0:15:08.196 And then lyrically, I think that that kind of mantra 0:15:08.356 --> 0:15:11.516 style of lyrics aged really well. A lot of times 0:15:11.556 --> 0:15:14.836 mantras came just we change our principles a perspective, But 0:15:15.316 --> 0:15:17.596 that perspective has still stuck with me and it's felt 0:15:17.716 --> 0:15:18.836 very relevant to my career. 0:15:18.836 --> 0:15:19.036 Now. 0:15:19.596 --> 0:15:22.516 Is there anything you're embarrassed about or anything you've said 0:15:22.556 --> 0:15:24.356 in a song, any lines that you thought were like 0:15:25.116 --> 0:15:28.036 incredible when you wrote them. Your younger self wrote them 0:15:28.236 --> 0:15:30.236 that you're like, I got it, like I figured it out, 0:15:30.276 --> 0:15:31.916 and you listen to it now and you're like, oh 0:15:31.956 --> 0:15:32.356 my god. 0:15:33.036 --> 0:15:33.596 Definitely. 0:15:33.876 --> 0:15:35.676 I think if you gave me twenty minutes, I could 0:15:35.676 --> 0:15:37.076 come up with a list of a thousand things I'm 0:15:37.116 --> 0:15:41.076 embarrassed about. But I think I'm mostly embarrassed about how 0:15:41.156 --> 0:15:46.396 much I tried to hide my singing voice. I think 0:15:46.436 --> 0:15:49.996 I tried to be really cute and stylistic and affected 0:15:50.156 --> 0:15:52.676 with my singing voice a lot of times, hiding because 0:15:52.676 --> 0:15:54.036 I didn't feel like I had a very good voice 0:15:54.036 --> 0:15:55.396 and that I had to be like more unique or 0:15:55.436 --> 0:15:57.436 like indie sounding, And I think I kind of adjusted 0:15:57.436 --> 0:15:59.596 it in some songs to feel like I was something 0:15:59.916 --> 0:16:02.436 worth listening to. And it wasn't until I started to 0:16:02.516 --> 0:16:06.156 kind of, you know, with taking vocal lessons but also 0:16:06.516 --> 0:16:09.076 just allowing myself to sing more naturally that I started 0:16:09.156 --> 0:16:10.996 to feel really proud of my voice as it is 0:16:11.036 --> 0:16:12.796 and be comfortable with it and come to terms with that. 0:16:13.236 --> 0:16:14.676 So I look back, I'm like, man, you should have 0:16:14.676 --> 0:16:16.996 sang that part like yeah, who carries you sound a 0:16:17.036 --> 0:16:19.476 little nasally or if like you sound a little bit 0:16:19.956 --> 0:16:22.156 a little bit sharp in that moment we got auto 0:16:22.156 --> 0:16:24.076 tune baby, like you should have just tried to sing it. 0:16:24.836 --> 0:16:26.556 So sometimes I look back and I'm a little bit 0:16:26.596 --> 0:16:28.956 ashamed of not trusting my voice a little earlier. 0:16:29.396 --> 0:16:34.196 Are there things that you're excited to try, like new ideas, 0:16:34.236 --> 0:16:38.036 new ways you're going to stretch either your voice or songwriting, 0:16:38.276 --> 0:16:42.396 or different musical ideas that you're looking forward to trying 0:16:42.436 --> 0:16:43.996 on your next album? 0:16:44.236 --> 0:16:44.996 Yeah, totally. 0:16:45.116 --> 0:16:47.316 We uh. I was work messing out in the studio 0:16:47.356 --> 0:16:49.436 a couple of days ago with Gabe Simon, who produced 0:16:49.436 --> 0:16:51.956 six Season with me, and Conrad Snyder who. 0:16:51.756 --> 0:16:54.196 Engineered it, and Carrie who played drums and all the songs. 0:16:54.196 --> 0:16:56.116 We were just jamming out and playing some kind of 0:16:56.196 --> 0:16:58.636 like some of my radio Head type stuff where I 0:16:58.716 --> 0:17:00.916 was really wail and singing, and it was really fun 0:17:00.996 --> 0:17:01.556