1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:24,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin hay Slight changed listeners. It's Maya this summer. We're 2 00:00:24,076 --> 00:00:27,756 Speaker 1: revisiting four of your all time favorite episodes. For our 3 00:00:27,756 --> 00:00:31,156 Speaker 1: final episode in the series, we're hearing from John Elder Robison. 4 00:00:31,996 --> 00:00:36,276 Speaker 1: This conversation changed my life. I developed a new perspective 5 00:00:36,356 --> 00:00:39,556 Speaker 1: on how our mind's work, the emotions we feel, and 6 00:00:39,636 --> 00:00:40,876 Speaker 1: all that comes along with that. 7 00:00:52,316 --> 00:00:57,076 Speaker 2: I was never a socially skilled kid. I never knew 8 00:00:57,076 --> 00:01:00,316 Speaker 2: what to say. Someone would come up to me, then 9 00:01:00,356 --> 00:01:03,556 Speaker 2: they would say, look at my new doll and I 10 00:01:03,556 --> 00:01:07,356 Speaker 2: would say, I like elephants, and they would just like, 11 00:01:07,396 --> 00:01:10,716 Speaker 2: look at me. And I never understood what I did wrong. 12 00:01:10,836 --> 00:01:13,316 Speaker 2: I was always saying and doing the wrong thing. 13 00:01:14,476 --> 00:01:17,956 Speaker 1: That's John Elder Robison. He's always had a gift for 14 00:01:18,076 --> 00:01:22,276 Speaker 1: understanding machines versus a sound engineer, then as a car mechanic, 15 00:01:23,076 --> 00:01:25,476 Speaker 1: But the one thing he always felt was lacking was 16 00:01:25,516 --> 00:01:29,036 Speaker 1: his ability to connect with people emotionally. He says he 17 00:01:29,116 --> 00:01:33,116 Speaker 1: often felt depressed and anxious about his interactions, and over 18 00:01:33,156 --> 00:01:35,356 Speaker 1: the years he'd done a number of things to try 19 00:01:35,356 --> 00:01:39,236 Speaker 1: and foster a deeper connection with others. Then in two 20 00:01:39,236 --> 00:01:43,276 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, John came across a unique opportunity he 21 00:01:43,396 --> 00:01:46,316 Speaker 1: was given the chance to participate in an experimental brain 22 00:01:46,356 --> 00:01:50,276 Speaker 1: study that he hoped would quote increase his emotional sensitivity. 23 00:01:51,596 --> 00:01:58,036 Speaker 2: I so much wanted to do that, because when I 24 00:01:58,116 --> 00:02:03,876 Speaker 2: had learned that there were these facial expressions, and there 25 00:02:03,916 --> 00:02:09,396 Speaker 2: were these whole, like unspoken conversations that happened between so 26 00:02:09,516 --> 00:02:13,956 Speaker 2: called normal people, and I couldn't get them. It was 27 00:02:14,116 --> 00:02:16,796 Speaker 2: like there were two whole conversations going on, and I 28 00:02:16,796 --> 00:02:18,476 Speaker 2: could only hear one of them. And I thought, if 29 00:02:18,556 --> 00:02:21,076 Speaker 2: only I could hear the other one, only I could 30 00:02:21,156 --> 00:02:24,836 Speaker 2: understand it, I would be happy. And that was this 31 00:02:25,236 --> 00:02:28,076 Speaker 2: like fantasy I built up in my mind that if 32 00:02:28,116 --> 00:02:30,556 Speaker 2: I could see these things in other people, my life 33 00:02:30,596 --> 00:02:31,556 Speaker 2: would be beautiful. 34 00:02:34,236 --> 00:02:37,356 Speaker 1: On today's episode, when you discover that the thing you 35 00:02:37,476 --> 00:02:41,036 Speaker 1: most wanted to change about yourself didn't actually need changing. 36 00:02:43,756 --> 00:02:46,596 Speaker 1: I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 37 00:02:47,116 --> 00:02:49,476 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 38 00:02:49,836 --> 00:03:03,676 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. The core of 39 00:03:03,756 --> 00:03:06,596 Speaker 1: John's story takes place in the nineteen eighties and nineties, 40 00:03:06,716 --> 00:03:09,956 Speaker 1: when he was working as a car mechanic in Springfield, Massachusetts, 41 00:03:10,556 --> 00:03:13,436 Speaker 1: but as you'll hear, John's had many careers over the years, 42 00:03:13,756 --> 00:03:16,116 Speaker 1: and we started at our conversation by talking about his 43 00:03:16,156 --> 00:03:18,836 Speaker 1: time in the music business. He is a rare ear 44 00:03:18,916 --> 00:03:22,076 Speaker 1: for technical detail, and in the nineteen seventies he worked 45 00:03:22,076 --> 00:03:24,396 Speaker 1: as a sound engineer for the likes of Kiss and 46 00:03:24,436 --> 00:03:25,236 Speaker 1: Diana Ross. 47 00:03:26,196 --> 00:03:32,076 Speaker 2: I think that people felt that I could see into 48 00:03:32,076 --> 00:03:35,556 Speaker 2: the amplifiers, and I could see into the electronics systems, 49 00:03:35,876 --> 00:03:40,676 Speaker 2: and I felt like I could see it. You know, 50 00:03:40,996 --> 00:03:46,076 Speaker 2: I could stand out at the mixing desk at a concert, 51 00:03:46,756 --> 00:03:51,356 Speaker 2: which was, you know, running my equipment, and you know, 52 00:03:51,396 --> 00:03:54,556 Speaker 2: I could push It's like pushing the throttles on a 53 00:03:54,596 --> 00:03:56,956 Speaker 2: powerful boat. You know, I could push it up, and 54 00:03:57,036 --> 00:04:00,996 Speaker 2: I could feel that this is just how far you 55 00:04:01,076 --> 00:04:03,796 Speaker 2: can push it before you blow it up. And I 56 00:04:03,836 --> 00:04:07,596 Speaker 2: think that that was a gift that was relatively uncommon, 57 00:04:08,236 --> 00:04:10,196 Speaker 2: and that was the thing I loved about it. I 58 00:04:11,196 --> 00:04:14,396 Speaker 2: loved making the equipment sing for all those people. 59 00:04:15,436 --> 00:04:17,676 Speaker 1: Oh, I love that. It's a very beautiful portrayal of 60 00:04:17,716 --> 00:04:21,076 Speaker 1: what it means to work and sound. You ended up 61 00:04:21,076 --> 00:04:23,876 Speaker 1: becoming interested in cars, right, which is what you do 62 00:04:23,996 --> 00:04:27,316 Speaker 1: right now? Why is it that you decided to eventually 63 00:04:27,436 --> 00:04:29,596 Speaker 1: leave your musical career behind. 64 00:04:29,996 --> 00:04:33,996 Speaker 2: When it got to dealing with people because music was 65 00:04:34,036 --> 00:04:40,436 Speaker 2: my first job. The musicians appreciated what I could create, 66 00:04:41,436 --> 00:04:47,396 Speaker 2: but other people thought that I was strange or bizarre, 67 00:04:47,596 --> 00:04:50,836 Speaker 2: or you know whatever. And I thought, well, what could 68 00:04:50,876 --> 00:04:55,436 Speaker 2: I do? And I always had had this love of 69 00:04:56,956 --> 00:04:59,516 Speaker 2: machinery and cars, and I thought, you know, I'm just 70 00:04:59,596 --> 00:05:03,596 Speaker 2: gonna be a mechanic. And I turned out to have 71 00:05:03,636 --> 00:05:07,196 Speaker 2: a gift for understand and automotive machines just the way 72 00:05:07,236 --> 00:05:11,396 Speaker 2: I had understood musical machines and other kinds of electronics. 73 00:05:11,996 --> 00:05:14,036 Speaker 2: I left, and I kind of never looked back. 74 00:05:16,116 --> 00:05:18,636 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, John, can you bring me back to the 75 00:05:18,716 --> 00:05:21,436 Speaker 1: day in your car shop when your client surprised you 76 00:05:21,516 --> 00:05:22,076 Speaker 1: with a book. 77 00:05:23,436 --> 00:05:28,076 Speaker 2: I had always been kind of a social failure, but 78 00:05:28,916 --> 00:05:34,476 Speaker 2: at my car business I had to learn enough social skills. 79 00:05:34,516 --> 00:05:36,836 Speaker 2: I guess that people would come back a second time. 80 00:05:37,516 --> 00:05:39,636 Speaker 2: And I spent a fair amount of time talking to 81 00:05:39,716 --> 00:05:42,836 Speaker 2: the customers that would sit in the waiting room and 82 00:05:42,876 --> 00:05:45,356 Speaker 2: wait for their cars, and I got to know them. 83 00:05:45,476 --> 00:05:47,596 Speaker 2: Some of them came in over a period of years. 84 00:05:47,636 --> 00:05:52,836 Speaker 2: One fellow was a therapist and comes in one day 85 00:05:52,876 --> 00:05:54,676 Speaker 2: and he says, you know, John, I've heard you tell 86 00:05:54,716 --> 00:05:58,436 Speaker 2: me how alone you feel many times, and I've heard 87 00:05:58,476 --> 00:06:01,316 Speaker 2: you tell me like you feel like you're standing in 88 00:06:01,356 --> 00:06:03,756 Speaker 2: the rain outside looking in the windows at all the 89 00:06:03,796 --> 00:06:05,916 Speaker 2: people standing by a fire, and you don't know how 90 00:06:05,956 --> 00:06:08,716 Speaker 2: to get in and be with them. And he said, 91 00:06:10,116 --> 00:06:12,436 Speaker 2: you know, there's a thing that we're talking about in 92 00:06:12,476 --> 00:06:16,836 Speaker 2: the mental health community that kind of explains that. It's 93 00:06:16,876 --> 00:06:20,996 Speaker 2: called Asperger syndrome. It's a kind of autism. And I 94 00:06:21,116 --> 00:06:24,756 Speaker 2: just looked at him and I thought autism. Then he 95 00:06:24,836 --> 00:06:29,276 Speaker 2: pulls out this book. It was called Asperger Syndrome. It 96 00:06:29,356 --> 00:06:32,876 Speaker 2: was by a doctor Tony Atwood, and he says, look, 97 00:06:32,956 --> 00:06:38,116 Speaker 2: he says, it's people like you and can't read facial expressions, 98 00:06:38,196 --> 00:06:43,396 Speaker 2: can't tell when somebody's angry or somebody said, say inappropriate 99 00:06:43,476 --> 00:06:46,916 Speaker 2: things and get people upset, to have difficulty looking other 100 00:06:46,996 --> 00:06:50,116 Speaker 2: people in the eye, and other folks think that they're 101 00:06:50,156 --> 00:06:53,556 Speaker 2: being tricky or evasive, and like everything he's saying to 102 00:06:53,596 --> 00:06:59,036 Speaker 2: me is me. And I'm listening to that. And first 103 00:06:59,076 --> 00:07:01,276 Speaker 2: I was like stunned at him telling me that I 104 00:07:01,316 --> 00:07:06,036 Speaker 2: had this kind of autism. And then as he kept 105 00:07:06,076 --> 00:07:08,356 Speaker 2: saying this is it, this and this and this and 106 00:07:08,396 --> 00:07:10,636 Speaker 2: every one of those things with me, and it was 107 00:07:10,796 --> 00:07:15,476 Speaker 2: just it was just shocking. It's just like totally came 108 00:07:15,516 --> 00:07:18,036 Speaker 2: out of the blue. It's not like I was sitting 109 00:07:18,076 --> 00:07:20,876 Speaker 2: in a therapist's office saying, doctor, tell me what's wrong 110 00:07:20,916 --> 00:07:24,196 Speaker 2: with me. It's like I was sitting behind the desk 111 00:07:24,276 --> 00:07:28,556 Speaker 2: at my car repair place and this is just thrust 112 00:07:28,596 --> 00:07:30,836 Speaker 2: in front of me, and it was shocking. 113 00:07:31,956 --> 00:07:37,276 Speaker 1: You're having this life changing moment, and I'm wondering, what 114 00:07:37,316 --> 00:07:39,596 Speaker 1: did it feel like to have this kind of clarity 115 00:07:39,636 --> 00:07:40,516 Speaker 1: for the first time. 116 00:07:41,436 --> 00:07:48,156 Speaker 2: Well, my first thought was, Okay, if I have this 117 00:07:48,356 --> 00:07:53,876 Speaker 2: Asperger thing, how do I get cured? And he said, well, 118 00:07:54,396 --> 00:07:58,796 Speaker 2: it's not a disease. It's just how you are. People 119 00:07:58,876 --> 00:08:02,516 Speaker 2: with autism that's how they are, and people with Aspergers 120 00:08:02,596 --> 00:08:06,196 Speaker 2: that's how you are. He says, It's like being short 121 00:08:06,316 --> 00:08:09,836 Speaker 2: or tall or you know whatever. It's just it's how 122 00:08:09,876 --> 00:08:17,916 Speaker 2: you are. But then after it sinks in there's no cure. Well, 123 00:08:18,036 --> 00:08:20,116 Speaker 2: now I know I have all this trouble and it's 124 00:08:20,156 --> 00:08:24,476 Speaker 2: never going to end. And I was really sad, but 125 00:08:25,076 --> 00:08:28,996 Speaker 2: I couldn't help reading the book he had left me. 126 00:08:29,316 --> 00:08:33,276 Speaker 2: And at first I had thought, Wow, people told me 127 00:08:33,316 --> 00:08:37,196 Speaker 2: I was mental and stupid and sociopathic and stuff. All 128 00:08:37,236 --> 00:08:42,036 Speaker 2: my life I heard these kinds of things, and now 129 00:08:42,716 --> 00:08:45,316 Speaker 2: here he is telling me, I'm not any of those things. 130 00:08:45,356 --> 00:08:50,996 Speaker 2: I'm a person with this Asperger's and that explains why 131 00:08:51,036 --> 00:08:54,556 Speaker 2: I've had all this trouble in my life. But gradually 132 00:08:54,596 --> 00:08:59,516 Speaker 2: I realized I can take the knowledge from that book 133 00:09:00,116 --> 00:09:03,316 Speaker 2: and I can teach myself to act differently. I can 134 00:09:03,396 --> 00:09:06,076 Speaker 2: teach myself that even if it makes me uncomfortable to 135 00:09:06,116 --> 00:09:09,356 Speaker 2: look in your eyes when you're talking to me, look 136 00:09:09,356 --> 00:09:12,076 Speaker 2: at your cheeks, I can look at your mouth. And 137 00:09:12,236 --> 00:09:16,316 Speaker 2: when I did that, it was kind of amazing, because 138 00:09:16,996 --> 00:09:22,156 Speaker 2: people responded better to me, even though I couldn't tell 139 00:09:22,396 --> 00:09:28,796 Speaker 2: about people's body language and expressions. After reading Atwood's book, 140 00:09:29,476 --> 00:09:31,996 Speaker 2: I understood that I would get too close to people 141 00:09:32,076 --> 00:09:34,436 Speaker 2: and I would make them feel threatened. So I could 142 00:09:34,476 --> 00:09:36,676 Speaker 2: just make a rule. If I held my arm out 143 00:09:36,716 --> 00:09:39,036 Speaker 2: in front of me, I could say, I won't get 144 00:09:39,076 --> 00:09:42,476 Speaker 2: any closer to you than two arms lengths when we're 145 00:09:42,516 --> 00:09:46,716 Speaker 2: talking in the waiting room. And I began to see 146 00:09:46,836 --> 00:09:50,196 Speaker 2: that I could change how I behaved, and it really 147 00:09:50,276 --> 00:09:53,676 Speaker 2: changed my life for the better. And that's when I 148 00:09:53,716 --> 00:09:56,876 Speaker 2: started to go from feeling, oh boy, you know, I 149 00:09:56,956 --> 00:10:00,036 Speaker 2: understand why I had all this trouble, but it's hopeless 150 00:10:00,516 --> 00:10:05,116 Speaker 2: to thinking, you know, I can change my life completely 151 00:10:05,396 --> 00:10:09,756 Speaker 2: with this knowledge. And that was a real, a really 152 00:10:09,796 --> 00:10:10,636 Speaker 2: big deal for me. 153 00:10:11,316 --> 00:10:14,716 Speaker 1: Did it lead you to reinterpret your past you'd had 154 00:10:14,756 --> 00:10:19,396 Speaker 1: experiences with depression? Did it help you understand aspects of 155 00:10:19,396 --> 00:10:20,156 Speaker 1: that differently? 156 00:10:20,236 --> 00:10:28,516 Speaker 2: Now? The thing I had always wanted was to feel 157 00:10:29,996 --> 00:10:38,276 Speaker 2: like I was a normal person. And so when I 158 00:10:38,356 --> 00:10:45,916 Speaker 2: learned about autism, I had an explanation for why things 159 00:10:45,916 --> 00:10:48,196 Speaker 2: had gone wrong with me and for why I was 160 00:10:48,236 --> 00:10:53,676 Speaker 2: a second rate person. And I have to say that 161 00:10:55,556 --> 00:11:00,876 Speaker 2: today we have this, you know, really different autism awareness, 162 00:11:01,636 --> 00:11:04,476 Speaker 2: and to say that I was a second rate person, 163 00:11:04,516 --> 00:11:07,116 Speaker 2: that's like a bad thing to say now, but you know, 164 00:11:07,156 --> 00:11:09,396 Speaker 2: that's how I felt. I felt like I was second right, 165 00:11:10,316 --> 00:11:16,636 Speaker 2: and I wanted so much to be normal, and so 166 00:11:16,996 --> 00:11:22,836 Speaker 2: I thought, you know, I should write my own story 167 00:11:23,236 --> 00:11:29,796 Speaker 2: about growing up and learning about this Asperger autism thing. 168 00:11:31,516 --> 00:11:35,436 Speaker 2: And that was what gave me the courage to write 169 00:11:35,436 --> 00:11:38,516 Speaker 2: what became Look Me in the Eye. And the book 170 00:11:38,556 --> 00:11:43,756 Speaker 2: came out and all these people started reading it. And 171 00:11:43,796 --> 00:11:46,316 Speaker 2: you know, one of the people who read it was 172 00:11:46,356 --> 00:11:51,796 Speaker 2: this postdoctoral researcher at Harvard Medical School, and she showed 173 00:11:51,876 --> 00:11:54,356 Speaker 2: up at a talk I was doing in a bookstore, 174 00:11:55,116 --> 00:12:00,916 Speaker 2: and she said, we're doing a study that's aimed at 175 00:12:01,356 --> 00:12:08,836 Speaker 2: possibly helping autistic people see emotional cues and read expressions 176 00:12:09,876 --> 00:12:15,196 Speaker 2: in other people, and we're hoping that your talks are 177 00:12:15,236 --> 00:12:19,596 Speaker 2: attracting autistic people in the audience, and maybe you could 178 00:12:19,596 --> 00:12:21,996 Speaker 2: hand out flyers for our study and you could attract 179 00:12:22,116 --> 00:12:25,436 Speaker 2: some volunteers for us. And I was like, thinking, now 180 00:12:25,756 --> 00:12:28,516 Speaker 2: I'll tell people, but I want to do it. I 181 00:12:28,676 --> 00:12:34,356 Speaker 2: just I so much wanted to do that because when 182 00:12:34,396 --> 00:12:41,676 Speaker 2: I had learned in that Atwood book that there were 183 00:12:41,716 --> 00:12:46,356 Speaker 2: these facial expressions and there were these whole, like unspoken 184 00:12:47,196 --> 00:12:52,236 Speaker 2: conversations that he described that happened between so called normal people, 185 00:12:53,036 --> 00:12:55,636 Speaker 2: and I couldn't get them. It was like there were 186 00:12:55,716 --> 00:12:58,116 Speaker 2: two whole conversations going on, and I could only hear 187 00:12:58,156 --> 00:12:59,996 Speaker 2: one of them. And I thought, if only I could 188 00:12:59,996 --> 00:13:03,516 Speaker 2: hear the other one, only I could understand it. I thought, 189 00:13:03,556 --> 00:13:07,236 Speaker 2: the reason I've always been anxious and depressed is because 190 00:13:07,316 --> 00:13:10,436 Speaker 2: all I can ever understand is bad things. People don't 191 00:13:10,516 --> 00:13:13,076 Speaker 2: like me, people think I'm whatever. They're going to fire me, 192 00:13:13,116 --> 00:13:15,996 Speaker 2: they're going to throw me out. But maybe there's this 193 00:13:16,076 --> 00:13:19,316 Speaker 2: whole other set of messages where people really love me 194 00:13:19,356 --> 00:13:22,036 Speaker 2: and they like me and they want it. There's good messages. 195 00:13:22,436 --> 00:13:24,236 Speaker 2: Maybe all I can get are the bad ones. And 196 00:13:24,276 --> 00:13:27,116 Speaker 2: if I could fix that and I would be happy. 197 00:13:28,076 --> 00:13:30,676 Speaker 2: And that was this like fantasy I built up in 198 00:13:30,716 --> 00:13:33,876 Speaker 2: my mind. And so when she came along and she 199 00:13:33,916 --> 00:13:36,916 Speaker 2: said we're doing the study hoping to do that, I thought, well, 200 00:13:36,956 --> 00:13:40,076 Speaker 2: maybe it would work, Maybe that would happen for me. 201 00:13:41,676 --> 00:13:45,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know you've written that autism gave you, quote 202 00:13:45,916 --> 00:13:49,756 Speaker 1: a mixture of disabilities and gifts. Can you share more 203 00:13:49,796 --> 00:13:52,956 Speaker 1: about this and how it affected your decision to enroll 204 00:13:52,956 --> 00:13:53,636 Speaker 1: in this study. 205 00:13:54,396 --> 00:13:57,596 Speaker 2: So the way the way autism had kind of played 206 00:13:57,636 --> 00:14:01,596 Speaker 2: out for me by that time in my life. The 207 00:14:01,676 --> 00:14:05,516 Speaker 2: average person couldn't see into machinery the way I could, 208 00:14:06,156 --> 00:14:12,356 Speaker 2: and the average person couldn't they couldn't focus on details 209 00:14:13,356 --> 00:14:17,196 Speaker 2: of things the way I could. I still, even without 210 00:14:17,276 --> 00:14:21,116 Speaker 2: understanding that I had gifts, I thought that my gifts 211 00:14:21,836 --> 00:14:25,716 Speaker 2: were in the category of something in a freak show. 212 00:14:26,196 --> 00:14:28,996 Speaker 2: You know, Sure they were gifts, but they weren't gifts 213 00:14:28,996 --> 00:14:32,716 Speaker 2: that most people cared about, and the things most people 214 00:14:32,716 --> 00:14:38,076 Speaker 2: do care about I couldn't do. So I I felt 215 00:14:38,156 --> 00:14:43,996 Speaker 2: that the more I could understand emotional cues, the more 216 00:14:44,156 --> 00:14:47,316 Speaker 2: I might be able to be like other people. And 217 00:14:47,356 --> 00:14:49,076 Speaker 2: I wanted to be able to do that. 218 00:14:49,836 --> 00:14:53,156 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it reveals so much to me about 219 00:14:53,996 --> 00:14:57,236 Speaker 1: where you were at psychologically with respect your self image 220 00:14:57,276 --> 00:15:00,196 Speaker 1: and self perception, that you would want to jump at 221 00:15:00,196 --> 00:15:03,356 Speaker 1: this opportunity, right, And you know, just to let listeners 222 00:15:03,396 --> 00:15:05,476 Speaker 1: in on the specifics of this study that you were 223 00:15:05,516 --> 00:15:08,556 Speaker 1: signing up for. It was not without risk, right. It 224 00:15:08,676 --> 00:15:14,396 Speaker 1: used TMS transcranial magnetic stimulation to activate specific areas of 225 00:15:14,436 --> 00:15:18,676 Speaker 1: your brain using high power magnetic fields. I mean it's 226 00:15:18,676 --> 00:15:21,756 Speaker 1: hard to imagine not having a little bit of trepidation, right, 227 00:15:21,916 --> 00:15:26,476 Speaker 1: some fear associated with getting enrolled in this kind of study, 228 00:15:27,116 --> 00:15:27,596 Speaker 1: is that, right? 229 00:15:28,076 --> 00:15:31,476 Speaker 2: You know you might have thought of it that way 230 00:15:33,156 --> 00:15:38,836 Speaker 2: as a person who was educated in neuroscience. I didn't 231 00:15:38,876 --> 00:15:45,756 Speaker 2: see it that way. The idea of TMS was, or 232 00:15:45,956 --> 00:15:49,556 Speaker 2: is that they take a coil of wire, which is 233 00:15:49,596 --> 00:15:55,556 Speaker 2: the basis for an electromagnet, and they fire a bunch 234 00:15:55,596 --> 00:15:59,076 Speaker 2: of electricity into it and it induces a powerful magnetic 235 00:15:59,116 --> 00:16:01,516 Speaker 2: field in that wire. They would put that on your head, 236 00:16:02,196 --> 00:16:06,076 Speaker 2: and so they would fire a pulse of magnetic energy 237 00:16:06,156 --> 00:16:09,596 Speaker 2: into your head when they put electricity into the wire. Well, 238 00:16:11,076 --> 00:16:15,916 Speaker 2: I had worked with really really powerful coils of wire 239 00:16:16,156 --> 00:16:20,756 Speaker 2: and magnets in making sound systems. And it's funny because 240 00:16:20,796 --> 00:16:23,636 Speaker 2: so many people in retrospect they said, weren't you scared 241 00:16:23,676 --> 00:16:26,476 Speaker 2: of that? And no, because of my background and making 242 00:16:26,796 --> 00:16:29,756 Speaker 2: high power electronic systems, I was scared at all. I thought, 243 00:16:29,796 --> 00:16:30,236 Speaker 2: bring it on. 244 00:16:31,436 --> 00:16:34,676 Speaker 1: Wow, that's so interesting. I want to push you a 245 00:16:34,676 --> 00:16:36,956 Speaker 1: little more here though, right, because it's one thing to 246 00:16:36,956 --> 00:16:42,636 Speaker 1: be building electronic equipment, it's another thing to have specific 247 00:16:42,676 --> 00:16:46,396 Speaker 1: parts of your brain activated by technology. 248 00:16:47,716 --> 00:16:51,676 Speaker 2: I just I really thought there was I thought there 249 00:16:51,756 --> 00:16:54,276 Speaker 2: was just like so much more that I was missing, 250 00:16:54,876 --> 00:16:57,276 Speaker 2: and if I could possibly see it, it would be 251 00:16:59,076 --> 00:17:03,076 Speaker 2: it would be huge revelation for me. It would be 252 00:17:03,236 --> 00:17:04,836 Speaker 2: such a huge positive thing. 253 00:17:05,956 --> 00:17:10,716 Speaker 1: Was your family as enthusiastic about this as you were? 254 00:17:10,836 --> 00:17:13,876 Speaker 2: Oh? My family wanted enthusiastic at all. And my wife, 255 00:17:14,036 --> 00:17:16,996 Speaker 2: she said, you know, when it comes to getting involved 256 00:17:17,036 --> 00:17:19,796 Speaker 2: in experiments to change myself, she said, you're good just 257 00:17:19,836 --> 00:17:21,836 Speaker 2: the way you are. Why do you want to change yourself? 258 00:17:23,196 --> 00:17:26,356 Speaker 2: And I said, I want to feel like other people. 259 00:17:26,436 --> 00:17:29,116 Speaker 2: I want to have people want to be my friend 260 00:17:29,156 --> 00:17:31,316 Speaker 2: and stuff and she said, people do want to be 261 00:17:31,396 --> 00:17:36,196 Speaker 2: your friend, people like you you have friends, And I said, well, 262 00:17:36,396 --> 00:17:40,676 Speaker 2: I just feel like there's something more, you know, So. 263 00:17:40,636 --> 00:17:45,876 Speaker 1: You decide to enroll in the TMS studies, and I'm 264 00:17:45,876 --> 00:17:48,996 Speaker 1: wondering if you can set the scene for me, you know, 265 00:17:49,156 --> 00:17:50,156 Speaker 1: to do the study. 266 00:17:51,116 --> 00:17:53,516 Speaker 2: They said to me, well, we're going to stimulate these 267 00:17:53,516 --> 00:17:56,876 Speaker 2: different areas of your brain, and the way we're going 268 00:17:56,916 --> 00:18:00,356 Speaker 2: to tell if anything happens is we're going to show 269 00:18:00,396 --> 00:18:05,396 Speaker 2: you on a computer monitor, people making faces, people doing things, 270 00:18:06,676 --> 00:18:10,556 Speaker 2: and we're going to ask is it ellis is it anxious? 271 00:18:10,676 --> 00:18:13,676 Speaker 2: Is it eager? You know, they'll have these different emotions 272 00:18:14,196 --> 00:18:18,316 Speaker 2: and you'll push buttons for what you're seeing. And they said, 273 00:18:18,316 --> 00:18:22,316 Speaker 2: we don't care if you don't get it right. Then 274 00:18:22,356 --> 00:18:24,636 Speaker 2: we're going to do this stimulation on you and we're 275 00:18:24,636 --> 00:18:26,436 Speaker 2: going to put you right back in front of the machine, 276 00:18:26,436 --> 00:18:29,036 Speaker 2: will show you another set of faces, and we'll see 277 00:18:29,036 --> 00:18:32,716 Speaker 2: if your responses are more or less accurate or the same. 278 00:18:32,836 --> 00:18:35,836 Speaker 2: That's how we'll tell. So they put the images in 279 00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:39,236 Speaker 2: front of me before the stimulation, and I didn't I 280 00:18:39,276 --> 00:18:42,476 Speaker 2: didn't have a single idea what I was seeing. So 281 00:18:42,596 --> 00:18:47,516 Speaker 2: then they sit me down and they start firing these pulses. 282 00:18:47,556 --> 00:18:51,996 Speaker 2: It's one pulse a second, and the thing goes click, click, click, 283 00:18:52,676 --> 00:18:55,396 Speaker 2: and every time it would fire, it would make a pop, 284 00:18:55,676 --> 00:18:58,036 Speaker 2: and I would feel this like twitch on the top 285 00:18:58,076 --> 00:19:01,916 Speaker 2: of my scalp, which they told me was the energy 286 00:19:02,036 --> 00:19:07,036 Speaker 2: from the magnetic field triggering muscles in my scalp. And 287 00:19:07,076 --> 00:19:09,076 Speaker 2: so I was sitting there and all of a sudden, 288 00:19:09,236 --> 00:19:11,116 Speaker 2: she lifts the thing off away from my head and 289 00:19:11,116 --> 00:19:12,756 Speaker 2: she said, come on quick, we got to test you. 290 00:19:12,796 --> 00:19:15,916 Speaker 2: And I realized half an hour had passed. Wow, And 291 00:19:16,756 --> 00:19:18,516 Speaker 2: so I go over. You know, it's just like ten 292 00:19:18,556 --> 00:19:20,156 Speaker 2: feet and I move across the room and I sit 293 00:19:20,236 --> 00:19:25,036 Speaker 2: down and the faces fly in front of me, and 294 00:19:25,076 --> 00:19:28,516 Speaker 2: I push the buttons and I still don't have any idea, 295 00:19:28,596 --> 00:19:32,676 Speaker 2: And I thought, well, kind of fool was I? You know, 296 00:19:32,796 --> 00:19:36,636 Speaker 2: I imagined that I'm going to look at those faces again 297 00:19:36,636 --> 00:19:38,396 Speaker 2: and I'm going to know every single one of them. 298 00:19:38,396 --> 00:19:42,876 Speaker 2: Well I didn't. I didn't know anything. So she says, okay, 299 00:19:43,036 --> 00:19:45,916 Speaker 2: that's good, And I said, well, how did I do? 300 00:19:46,276 --> 00:19:48,196 Speaker 2: And she says, well, I don't know how you did, 301 00:19:48,196 --> 00:19:49,876 Speaker 2: but even if I did, I couldn't tell you because 302 00:19:49,876 --> 00:19:54,436 Speaker 2: it's a study. So that I go out down the 303 00:19:54,476 --> 00:19:56,116 Speaker 2: garage and I get in my car, so I'm like 304 00:19:56,156 --> 00:20:00,236 Speaker 2: two hours from home. And so when I drive out, 305 00:20:02,036 --> 00:20:06,396 Speaker 2: I always would play old music, and I had a 306 00:20:06,436 --> 00:20:11,836 Speaker 2: lot of concerts or bootleg recordings I could listen to. 307 00:20:12,076 --> 00:20:16,636 Speaker 2: And I put on recording this show of a band 308 00:20:16,716 --> 00:20:21,956 Speaker 2: called Tavares, And so I put on this show and 309 00:20:21,996 --> 00:20:26,836 Speaker 2: I start playing, and it was like I stepped into 310 00:20:26,876 --> 00:20:30,316 Speaker 2: a musical hallucination. It's like I was back there at 311 00:20:30,356 --> 00:20:34,036 Speaker 2: the show and I could I could like almost smell it, 312 00:20:34,076 --> 00:20:36,916 Speaker 2: and I could feel it, and it was it was 313 00:20:37,116 --> 00:20:41,196 Speaker 2: just an overpowering thing listening to it, and it drove 314 00:20:41,276 --> 00:20:45,236 Speaker 2: along and it was it was so overwhelming that it 315 00:20:46,116 --> 00:20:48,476 Speaker 2: made me cry. I had pulled over and I was 316 00:20:48,516 --> 00:20:52,516 Speaker 2: just crying. And all the years I had worked in music, 317 00:20:53,276 --> 00:20:56,796 Speaker 2: I didn't feel the emotion of the music. I felt. 318 00:20:57,156 --> 00:21:01,116 Speaker 2: Was it technically correct, but I didn't feel was it happy? 319 00:21:01,236 --> 00:21:03,796 Speaker 2: Was it sad? Was it longing? Was it wistful? I 320 00:21:03,796 --> 00:21:06,836 Speaker 2: didn't feel those things, And of course that's what made 321 00:21:06,876 --> 00:21:12,036 Speaker 2: me a good engineer. But now I was feeling the 322 00:21:12,116 --> 00:21:17,436 Speaker 2: emotion of it, and it was just overwhelming. And I 323 00:21:17,476 --> 00:21:24,676 Speaker 2: thought to myself, this must be what all those people 324 00:21:24,836 --> 00:21:29,676 Speaker 2: in the audience were feeling when they listened to those shows. 325 00:21:30,836 --> 00:21:34,516 Speaker 2: I thought back at all those concerts I had been at, 326 00:21:34,556 --> 00:21:38,476 Speaker 2: and people were crying and they were singing, and they 327 00:21:38,516 --> 00:21:41,316 Speaker 2: were smiling, and I would see like tears, you know, 328 00:21:41,396 --> 00:21:45,596 Speaker 2: from people, and I'd just be I'd just be standing 329 00:21:45,636 --> 00:21:52,356 Speaker 2: there looking out, thinking, it's working. The system, it's doing 330 00:21:52,396 --> 00:21:55,596 Speaker 2: what we wanted it to do. The musicians are up 331 00:21:55,636 --> 00:21:59,956 Speaker 2: there playing and our sound equipment is working. But I 332 00:22:00,036 --> 00:22:04,916 Speaker 2: never felt the feelings of the audience. And I went 333 00:22:04,956 --> 00:22:08,436 Speaker 2: home and it was really late by then, and I 334 00:22:08,476 --> 00:22:10,596 Speaker 2: sent an email to the doctor and I said, this 335 00:22:10,676 --> 00:22:14,996 Speaker 2: is like some really powerful stuff. This has happened. And 336 00:22:15,076 --> 00:22:19,756 Speaker 2: I sat awake all night and I just listened to 337 00:22:19,796 --> 00:22:23,116 Speaker 2: old music, just sitting listening to it, and it was 338 00:22:23,196 --> 00:22:29,716 Speaker 2: like dawn, and it finally the brilliance kind of faded away, 339 00:22:30,276 --> 00:22:35,476 Speaker 2: and I went to sleep and it was just it 340 00:22:35,516 --> 00:22:36,796 Speaker 2: was just an amazing night. 341 00:22:47,916 --> 00:22:50,116 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. With a slight change 342 00:22:50,116 --> 00:22:58,156 Speaker 1: of plans. So John Elder Robison volunteered to participate in 343 00:22:58,196 --> 00:23:01,116 Speaker 1: a pioneering study run by a teaching hospital out of 344 00:23:01,116 --> 00:23:06,716 Speaker 1: Harvard Medical School. The study used transcranial magnetic stimulation or TMS, 345 00:23:07,356 --> 00:23:12,356 Speaker 1: which uses electromagnetic pul to stimulate nerve cells. The impact 346 00:23:12,356 --> 00:23:16,236 Speaker 1: of TMS on things like migrains, obsessive compulsive disorder, and 347 00:23:16,356 --> 00:23:20,796 Speaker 1: major depressive disorder are relatively well understood, but less so 348 00:23:20,956 --> 00:23:23,996 Speaker 1: the impact of TMS on people on the autism spectrum. 349 00:23:24,516 --> 00:23:26,996 Speaker 1: And the two thousand and eight study that John participated 350 00:23:27,036 --> 00:23:31,116 Speaker 1: in was entirely exploratory. It was a research study that 351 00:23:31,156 --> 00:23:34,836 Speaker 1: recruited those with Asperger's, a diagnostic category still used at 352 00:23:34,836 --> 00:23:38,316 Speaker 1: that time, and it's worth noting that among the participants 353 00:23:38,316 --> 00:23:42,356 Speaker 1: in the study, John's response was singular and highly unusual 354 00:23:42,436 --> 00:23:45,516 Speaker 1: in its expression, and it had a complex impact on 355 00:23:45,596 --> 00:23:48,916 Speaker 1: John's life. It changed his understanding of himself in a 356 00:23:48,956 --> 00:23:53,156 Speaker 1: profound way and affected the relationships in his life, including 357 00:23:53,196 --> 00:23:55,236 Speaker 1: with his wife and the folks in the car shop. 358 00:23:55,876 --> 00:23:57,996 Speaker 2: I went to work and one of the guys was 359 00:23:58,436 --> 00:24:03,236 Speaker 2: in the hall and I looked at him and I thought, 360 00:24:04,116 --> 00:24:12,036 Speaker 2: he has most beautiful brown eyes. And then it like 361 00:24:12,116 --> 00:24:15,876 Speaker 2: hit me. I thought, what's going on with me? I 362 00:24:15,916 --> 00:24:21,156 Speaker 2: had never ever in my life had a thought he 363 00:24:21,236 --> 00:24:25,556 Speaker 2: has beautiful brown eyes. But of course I had heard 364 00:24:25,636 --> 00:24:28,916 Speaker 2: that people had said, oh, old blue eyes, and such 365 00:24:28,996 --> 00:24:31,556 Speaker 2: pretty blue eyes. And pretty. You know, i'd heard it, 366 00:24:32,236 --> 00:24:36,596 Speaker 2: but I had never ever had that thought. And then 367 00:24:37,356 --> 00:24:39,396 Speaker 2: I went into the waiting room and there were people 368 00:24:39,476 --> 00:24:42,556 Speaker 2: out there, and I looked at people and I thought, 369 00:24:43,676 --> 00:24:48,276 Speaker 2: she's really anxious, really scared. And I never had a 370 00:24:48,276 --> 00:24:50,716 Speaker 2: feeling like that before. I mean, I would go in 371 00:24:50,716 --> 00:24:54,116 Speaker 2: the waiting room and my logical brain would tell me 372 00:24:54,516 --> 00:24:57,076 Speaker 2: they're waiting to know what's wrong with their car, But 373 00:24:57,356 --> 00:25:00,716 Speaker 2: never ever did I look at someone and think she's 374 00:25:00,796 --> 00:25:06,156 Speaker 2: really scared. And I actually I said to the person 375 00:25:06,196 --> 00:25:08,956 Speaker 2: in the waiting room, I said, don't worry, it'll be okay. 376 00:25:09,676 --> 00:25:13,476 Speaker 2: She kind of smiled at me. Wow, And I thought, 377 00:25:14,076 --> 00:25:16,516 Speaker 2: this is like magic. This has never happened to me. 378 00:25:18,196 --> 00:25:23,516 Speaker 2: And lest you think that my life was all like 379 00:25:23,636 --> 00:25:26,396 Speaker 2: beauty and sweetness and light from that moment on, it 380 00:25:26,436 --> 00:25:32,836 Speaker 2: wasn't that way. Because I went out and I went 381 00:25:32,876 --> 00:25:35,316 Speaker 2: you know, I was a big shopping center where I live, 382 00:25:36,796 --> 00:25:38,716 Speaker 2: and I'm walking through the mall and I'm just like 383 00:25:38,796 --> 00:25:42,596 Speaker 2: looking around at the people, and it was not beauty 384 00:25:42,636 --> 00:25:46,276 Speaker 2: and sweetness and light. It was like fear and anxiety 385 00:25:46,396 --> 00:25:49,436 Speaker 2: and worry and jealousy and all these things that they're 386 00:25:49,436 --> 00:25:52,836 Speaker 2: all coming at me from a million different directions. It's 387 00:25:52,876 --> 00:25:58,916 Speaker 2: just like this wave of emotion and I thought, holy shit, 388 00:25:59,076 --> 00:26:03,316 Speaker 2: I thought, what kind of fool was I now? And 389 00:26:03,356 --> 00:26:06,636 Speaker 2: you know, as I went through life, that faded away. 390 00:26:06,916 --> 00:26:10,756 Speaker 1: Luckily, sorry that meaning. 391 00:26:10,716 --> 00:26:15,276 Speaker 2: My ability to see those emotions in people dissipated over 392 00:26:15,316 --> 00:26:22,236 Speaker 2: the next few weeks. But while it lasted, it was overwhelming. 393 00:26:22,396 --> 00:26:24,276 Speaker 2: It was like devastating to me. 394 00:26:26,276 --> 00:26:30,996 Speaker 1: I mean, I so appreciate the complexity you describe, and 395 00:26:31,076 --> 00:26:36,636 Speaker 1: from what I understand, while the very acute results of 396 00:26:36,676 --> 00:26:40,956 Speaker 1: the TMS have dissipated over time, there is this element 397 00:26:41,036 --> 00:26:44,636 Speaker 1: of you can't unsee what you've seen, right, and you 398 00:26:44,676 --> 00:26:49,356 Speaker 1: are you are altered permanently from this experience in terms 399 00:26:49,396 --> 00:26:51,356 Speaker 1: of your perspective of the world. 400 00:26:51,996 --> 00:26:57,396 Speaker 2: And I also felt like my dream was kind of shattered, 401 00:26:57,756 --> 00:27:00,036 Speaker 2: this idea that if I could see these things in 402 00:27:00,076 --> 00:27:04,276 Speaker 2: other people, my life would be beautiful. And so now 403 00:27:04,436 --> 00:27:13,636 Speaker 2: we are thirteen years since that TMS experience, and I guess, 404 00:27:16,396 --> 00:27:19,596 Speaker 2: I guess I never imagined that just a brief experience 405 00:27:19,716 --> 00:27:24,196 Speaker 2: like that could change your life forever. The way I 406 00:27:24,236 --> 00:27:28,156 Speaker 2: guess I could explain it, and maybe it's an explanation, 407 00:27:29,036 --> 00:27:32,316 Speaker 2: is if you're a color blind person and you grow 408 00:27:32,396 --> 00:27:36,836 Speaker 2: up and you imagine people are talking about the beautiful 409 00:27:36,876 --> 00:27:41,236 Speaker 2: blue sky, pretty red shirt, nice green grass, and of 410 00:27:41,276 --> 00:27:43,116 Speaker 2: course to you, it's all shades of gray, and you 411 00:27:43,156 --> 00:27:45,516 Speaker 2: start thinking it's just bullshit, and it just makes you angry. 412 00:27:45,636 --> 00:27:48,276 Speaker 2: This blue, yellow, green talk. It's all the same. You 413 00:27:48,356 --> 00:27:50,876 Speaker 2: know it. You know the evidence of your eyes. And 414 00:27:50,916 --> 00:27:53,396 Speaker 2: you go into some doctor's office and they do something 415 00:27:53,436 --> 00:27:55,396 Speaker 2: to you, and you walk out and you see color 416 00:27:55,436 --> 00:27:58,796 Speaker 2: and you realize, holy shit, these people were telling the truth. 417 00:27:58,876 --> 00:28:02,636 Speaker 2: It's really what it is. And then the ability fades away. Well, 418 00:28:02,716 --> 00:28:04,396 Speaker 2: even if you go back to see in a black 419 00:28:04,436 --> 00:28:07,516 Speaker 2: and white world, you are never going to forget that 420 00:28:07,636 --> 00:28:10,716 Speaker 2: all those other people are seeing yellows and blues and greens, 421 00:28:10,756 --> 00:28:14,636 Speaker 2: and you're going to try your hardest to discern what 422 00:28:14,876 --> 00:28:17,836 Speaker 2: shade of gray is yellow and what's green? And can 423 00:28:17,876 --> 00:28:21,996 Speaker 2: I determine green by context? You know that's a lawn, 424 00:28:22,116 --> 00:28:25,596 Speaker 2: so that must be green. And you're going to always 425 00:28:25,636 --> 00:28:28,876 Speaker 2: be changed. I don't know what to say except that 426 00:28:28,956 --> 00:28:33,156 Speaker 2: I'm I'm changed all these years later. Yeah, and the 427 00:28:33,196 --> 00:28:39,316 Speaker 2: insight I think has been empowering. But it was a really, 428 00:28:39,636 --> 00:28:42,876 Speaker 2: really rough rive. Yeah, so it was a very mixed bag. 429 00:28:43,716 --> 00:28:45,196 Speaker 2: It was a very mixed thing. 430 00:28:46,836 --> 00:28:48,876 Speaker 1: That leads me to another question I have for you, John, 431 00:28:48,916 --> 00:28:52,276 Speaker 1: which is, you know, you talk about this experience in 432 00:28:52,316 --> 00:28:56,796 Speaker 1: the mall where you're inundated with emotion, and what you're 433 00:28:56,836 --> 00:29:01,196 Speaker 1: realizing is your experience being on the autism spectrum wasn't 434 00:29:01,196 --> 00:29:03,236 Speaker 1: shielding you all the good parts. 435 00:29:03,476 --> 00:29:05,236 Speaker 2: It was shielding me from those bad parts. 436 00:29:05,556 --> 00:29:07,276 Speaker 1: It was shielding you from bad parts too. 437 00:29:07,396 --> 00:29:12,396 Speaker 2: Yes, being autistic definitely shielded me from that. It made 438 00:29:12,476 --> 00:29:15,916 Speaker 2: me different, but it didn't make me worse. Because those 439 00:29:15,956 --> 00:29:19,916 Speaker 2: people who have to live with that, you know, being 440 00:29:19,996 --> 00:29:23,556 Speaker 2: a logical person, they can't be logical people because there's 441 00:29:23,636 --> 00:29:26,716 Speaker 2: so much emotion around them. I don't have that around me, 442 00:29:26,796 --> 00:29:30,556 Speaker 2: So I am logical, and you know, logic works in 443 00:29:30,596 --> 00:29:33,156 Speaker 2: a lot of life. You ought to be a programmer, boy, 444 00:29:33,236 --> 00:29:34,636 Speaker 2: there's nothing better than logic. 445 00:29:35,116 --> 00:29:40,076 Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm wondering what impact the TMS had on your 446 00:29:40,116 --> 00:29:42,156 Speaker 1: relationship with your wife. 447 00:29:43,236 --> 00:29:50,316 Speaker 2: Well, ultimately, my wife was living with significant depression, and 448 00:29:50,396 --> 00:29:55,516 Speaker 2: because I was largely blind to the emotional cues from others, 449 00:29:55,556 --> 00:29:59,156 Speaker 2: her included, she was just what she was, you know, 450 00:29:59,316 --> 00:30:02,756 Speaker 2: and she could say like, I can't get out of 451 00:30:02,756 --> 00:30:04,676 Speaker 2: bed today, I'm too depressed. And I would say, Okay, 452 00:30:04,676 --> 00:30:06,596 Speaker 2: I'm going to work and I'm just going to and 453 00:30:06,636 --> 00:30:09,956 Speaker 2: that worked, you know, worked for us. But when I 454 00:30:10,036 --> 00:30:14,076 Speaker 2: saw those feelings after the TMS, I saw her sadness 455 00:30:14,116 --> 00:30:17,916 Speaker 2: and misery, and I thought, I must have done this 456 00:30:17,956 --> 00:30:20,436 Speaker 2: to her. We're married. I must be the cause of 457 00:30:20,476 --> 00:30:25,436 Speaker 2: her misery. That's just just horrible, and it really shattered 458 00:30:25,636 --> 00:30:29,676 Speaker 2: my marriage. I thought, you know, I'm like killing her 459 00:30:29,836 --> 00:30:32,676 Speaker 2: and her depression is killing me, and we're horrible for 460 00:30:32,716 --> 00:30:36,196 Speaker 2: each other. And I got to leave, and you know, 461 00:30:36,276 --> 00:30:38,956 Speaker 2: and I guess I'm very sad for that. 462 00:30:40,436 --> 00:30:43,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's a poignant illustration of the complexities 463 00:30:43,996 --> 00:30:49,076 Speaker 1: that come along with picking up on human emotions. Knowing 464 00:30:49,116 --> 00:30:51,996 Speaker 1: what you know. Now, if you could go back in time, 465 00:30:52,756 --> 00:30:58,076 Speaker 1: would you still go through with the TMS experiments, if you. 466 00:30:58,116 --> 00:31:02,596 Speaker 2: Put me in the shoes of the post TMS John Robison, 467 00:31:04,276 --> 00:31:09,196 Speaker 2: where I had experienced what it would be like to 468 00:31:09,236 --> 00:31:14,916 Speaker 2: see and feel emotion, and I saw and felt what 469 00:31:15,036 --> 00:31:18,996 Speaker 2: it's like to read emotions. And yes, that's a powerful thing, 470 00:31:19,516 --> 00:31:23,596 Speaker 2: and yes that could help me engage with people who 471 00:31:23,636 --> 00:31:29,236 Speaker 2: don't know me. But it devastated my logical brain. In 472 00:31:29,276 --> 00:31:33,716 Speaker 2: it upended the world as I had known it. I 473 00:31:33,756 --> 00:31:39,876 Speaker 2: am not a broken version of some someone else's normal. 474 00:31:40,516 --> 00:31:44,676 Speaker 2: I am my normal. Autistic people maybe different from non 475 00:31:44,716 --> 00:31:49,316 Speaker 2: autistic people, but we are not broken. And that's what's 476 00:31:49,356 --> 00:31:52,516 Speaker 2: been brought home to me. I think through this TMS 477 00:31:53,716 --> 00:31:57,316 Speaker 2: and now that I know that, do I need to 478 00:31:57,396 --> 00:32:01,716 Speaker 2: learn it again? No, that's a lifelong lesson, and that's 479 00:32:01,716 --> 00:32:05,636 Speaker 2: a gift the TMS gave me that I truly understand 480 00:32:06,196 --> 00:32:09,476 Speaker 2: that as an autistic person, I am my normal, and 481 00:32:09,556 --> 00:32:12,916 Speaker 2: I'm a good normal, as much a complete, correct person 482 00:32:12,956 --> 00:32:13,836 Speaker 2: as anyone else. 483 00:32:34,076 --> 00:32:36,716 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my 484 00:32:36,756 --> 00:32:40,276 Speaker 1: conversation with John Elder Robison, I recommend you check out 485 00:32:40,276 --> 00:32:44,636 Speaker 1: another episode that features rock climber Tommy Caldwell. A near 486 00:32:44,716 --> 00:32:48,076 Speaker 1: death experience unlocked a completely new state of mind for 487 00:32:48,156 --> 00:32:51,436 Speaker 1: Tommy and propelled him to become the greatest big wall 488 00:32:51,476 --> 00:33:04,156 Speaker 1: climber in the world. A Slight Change of Plans is created, 489 00:33:04,156 --> 00:33:07,876 Speaker 1: written and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight 490 00:33:07,956 --> 00:33:12,116 Speaker 1: Changed family includes Tyler Green our senior producer, Jen Guerra 491 00:33:12,236 --> 00:33:16,876 Speaker 1: our senior editor, Then Tolliday our sound engineer, Emily Rosstek 492 00:33:16,916 --> 00:33:21,796 Speaker 1: our associate producer, and Neil Lavelle, our executive producer, Louis 493 00:33:21,796 --> 00:33:24,796 Speaker 1: Scara wrote our theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange 494 00:33:24,796 --> 00:33:27,876 Speaker 1: the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is the production 495 00:33:27,916 --> 00:33:31,996 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there, including 496 00:33:32,036 --> 00:33:36,036 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, Lee tal Mallatt and Heather Fame 497 00:33:36,596 --> 00:33:40,756 Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 498 00:33:41,036 --> 00:33:43,596 Speaker 1: You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram 499 00:33:43,636 --> 00:33:46,396 Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Schunker see you next week. 500 00:33:50,996 --> 00:33:54,276 Speaker 2: And then the neurologist comes in to see me and 501 00:33:54,316 --> 00:33:56,436 Speaker 2: he says, he says, what day is it? And what's 502 00:33:56,476 --> 00:34:00,316 Speaker 2: your name? And who's the president? He asked me some 503 00:34:00,436 --> 00:34:03,396 Speaker 2: questions I don't know the answer to. He says something like, well, 504 00:34:03,796 --> 00:34:07,196 Speaker 2: who's our senator? I don't know who our senator. 505 00:34:08,036 --> 00:34:11,676 Speaker 1: I didn't know before you. Yeah, I would totally a 506 00:34:11,756 --> 00:34:12,396 Speaker 1: bid you John. 507 00:34:12,516 --> 00:34:14,676 Speaker 2: And he says, Okay, I get it. You haven't forgotten it. 508 00:34:14,716 --> 00:34:15,396 Speaker 2: You never knew it.