1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: today we're going to be starting on a series that 5 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: has to do with animal feeding behaviors, but specifically what 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: comes before the feeding itself. I got into this topic 7 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: by wondering about a simple question, and it was are 8 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: there any animals other than humans that cook their food? 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: Because if if you look at the relationship that humans 10 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: have with food versus the at least obvious relationships that 11 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: we can see on the surface level between most wild 12 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: animals and their food, there were some pretty stark differences. 13 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: So you know, you watch like a grazing herbivore mammal 14 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: that's eating grass or eating leaves, it doesn't seem like 15 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: they're putting the vegetation through any kind of external processing. 16 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: It's just there in the environment. They bite it, they 17 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: chew it, and they swallow it. Though once they swallow it, 18 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: of course, if you're talking about like you know, ruminant 19 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: mammals or something, plenty of interesting things happened to the 20 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: food after it has been processed, say by the teeth 21 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: in the mouth, there might be multiple different interesting stages 22 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: of digestion, but in that first stage, before the food 23 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: reaches the mouth, there's not really anything complex going on 24 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: that There's just some material in the environment that has 25 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: nutritional value. The animal comes within reach of that food, 26 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: they bite it, they chew it up, they swallow it, 27 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: they just eat it. And if you compared that to 28 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: all of the sometimes mind bogglingly complex stages of manipulation, combination, 29 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: and alteration of raw plant and animal materials that go 30 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: into making a standard human meal, even meals that we 31 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: would perceive as kind of simple. Like if you think 32 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: about all of the pre processing and alteration that goes 33 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: into the foods that make a cheeseburger, the difference is overwhelming. 34 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean even if you're I mean, you 35 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: can go even simpler than that. I guess if even 36 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: if you just you don't even take into accounts, say meat, 37 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: because meat processing, especially something like a hamburger, Uh, there's 38 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: a lot of there are a lot of grotesque details 39 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: that go into that. But but just like thinking about yeah, 40 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: like the bread, uh, the the you know, the vegetables, 41 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: even you know, being prepared the various sauces. I mean 42 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: all the things that go into it. Uh, it's it's 43 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: it's quite a lot. And yeah, coming back to what 44 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: you said earlier that we think about animals, we think 45 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: about purely internal food processing and in human cuisine. Human 46 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: cooking is the externalization of various processes um things that 47 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: that that we we tend to imagine generally only take 48 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: place within the bodies of animals. We found ways to 49 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: do them externally to give our internal digestion of break 50 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: as well as to make things that are otherwise inedible 51 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: edible exactly right, and of course the central idea, the 52 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: thing that most people think about when you say the 53 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 1: word cooking is the narrow sense of cooking, meaning causing 54 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: chemical and structural changes to food by the application of heat, 55 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: specifically heating. Uh. This is one of the most common 56 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,799 Speaker 1: ways of processing food before we eat it. And this 57 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: does exactly the things you're talking about. It takes foods 58 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: that would not otherwise be edible to humans and makes 59 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: them edible, or makes them safe to eat, or increases 60 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: the availability of nutrition from the same starting quantities of food. 61 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: So you take a mass of raw food, you cook it. 62 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: You can usually increase its nutritional efficiency, you can get 63 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: more nutrition out of it. And so to come back 64 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: to the question of are there animals that cook, I 65 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: would say, based on my research, if you're talking about 66 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: on their own in the wild, it appears that the 67 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: answer is no. In that narrow sense of cooking, meaning 68 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: cooking by applying heat, it seems that humans are the 69 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: only animals that do that in a consistent way. That 70 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: we can talk about a few interesting wrinkles to that 71 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: generalization in a minute. But when it comes to the 72 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: broader sense of cooking, which is you could imagine anything 73 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: that people would do in a restaurant kitchen or in 74 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: a home kitchen, any way that people manipulate food or 75 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: prepare meals other than by applying heat. It turns out 76 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: non human animals do all kinds of fascinating things to 77 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: their food before consuming it along these lines. And so 78 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: that's what I wanted to talk about in this series. 79 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: What do animals do that could be construed as cooking 80 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 1: in one way or another, Even accepting that no animals 81 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: in the wild cook their food with heat, well with 82 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: the exception of the rat, to a phenomenon by which 83 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: a rat uh once exposed to culinary traditions in an 84 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: urban environment, will then begin to cook itself, um to 85 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: to actually copy various recipes that are around it, improve 86 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: upon those recipes, and sometimes crawl on top of a 87 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: man's head and pull his hair to use said human 88 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: as a puppet to move around the kitchen and prepare um, 89 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: you know, fine works of French cuisine or yes I 90 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: can't recall. Okay, yes, the ratitui itself. Yes, but it 91 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: begs the question is this is this do we see 92 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 1: this only with French cuisine or uh does the ratitui 93 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: phenomenon um repeat itself in various other cultures? Animals can 94 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: only be trained to make sauces that are heavy and dairy, 95 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: So yeah, it is a French thing. Okay, But no, 96 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: that's a good point because actually, by raising ratitui, you 97 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: point out that I think you could quite clearly find 98 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: plenty of examples of animals that have been trained in 99 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: some sense to cook. Now, uh, they're probably never going 100 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: to be as versatile as a human cook, but I'm 101 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: sure you can find tons of examples of an animal 102 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: that somebody trained to go turn on the micro wave 103 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: or something like that, you know, to to boop at 104 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: the oven knob with their nose until it comes on 105 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: or something along those lines. And then of course it's 106 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 1: the whole area of animals that are willing to benefit 107 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: from cooking without having done it themselves. Like I once 108 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: saw a seagull grab a hot dog half of off 109 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: of a grill at the beach. Um. You know, the 110 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: seagull was not itself barbecuing, but it was it was 111 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: more than happy to benefit from the barbecuing. Well, that 112 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: is a great point, and that actually feeds right into 113 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: the next thing that I wanted to talk about. So 114 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: before in this series we get into examples of animals 115 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: doing some kind of cooking in the broader sense, meaning 116 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: you know, preparing foods before they eat them in some 117 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: way that doesn't involve the directed, uh application of heat. 118 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: I do want to talk about cooked food in the 119 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,679 Speaker 1: narrower sense, food that has been heated. And one interesting 120 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: place I thought to start there would be with the 121 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 1: question in general, would non human animals actually prefer cooked 122 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: food over the raw food stuffs that they would encounter 123 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: in their natural environment. And it turns out there have 124 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: been some studies that looked into this and in some 125 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: cases there is a clear answer. So I wanted to 126 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: start by looking at a paper published in the year 127 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight in the Journal of Human Evolution 128 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: by Victoria Warber, Brian Hair, and Richard Wrangham called great 129 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: Apes Prefer Cooked Food. Now, part of the background of 130 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: this paper is based in the exploration of an idea 131 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: that's come up in passing on the show a couple 132 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: of times before. We've never actually devoted a full episode 133 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: or series to it. Maybe someday we will. But it's 134 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: what is known as the cooking hypothesis. And to summarize 135 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: it briefly, the cooking hypothesis is the proposition that the 136 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: advent of cooking was a major contributor to the physiological 137 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: evolution of the ancestors of Homo sapiens. In other words, 138 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: that a lot of things about the bodies of modern 139 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: human beings are the way they are because our primate 140 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: ancestors figured out how to control fire and how to 141 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: cook their food by applying heat to it. Now you 142 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: might wonder, well, how could our bodies be changed in 143 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: an evolutionary sense by the invention of cooking. Well, essentially, 144 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: it would happen by changing the pressures present in our 145 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: nutritional regimes. So I think proponents of the cooking hypothesis 146 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: usually argue that because cooked food is more nutritionally efficient, 147 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: again meaning that if food is cooked, you take a 148 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: food item you eat it raw versus you eat it cooked. 149 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: In the cooked version, you can get more nutrition from 150 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: it with less chewing, less energy spent on digestion, and 151 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: so forth. Um, So, if suddenly eating and absorbing nutrition 152 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: becomes easier and more efficient, we have to spend less 153 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: time chewing, we have to spend less time gathering large 154 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: quantities of food, The types of food we can eat 155 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: safely is expanded, and we have to spend less energy 156 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 1: developing large powerhouse, digestive tracts, and so forth. So perhaps 157 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: other adaptive pressures fill the void, including bigger brains and 158 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: so forth. And I think one proposed causal mechanism is 159 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 1: that once cooking is invented, we can get more nutrition 160 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: from the same amount of environmental material. Suddenly the carrying 161 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 1: capacity of the local environment than is larger. There can 162 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: be more humans per tribe, which requires bigger brains in 163 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: order to maintain relationships with that larger number of humans. 164 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: The main figure behind the cooking hypothesis is a British primatologist, 165 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: and I think he either is now or it was 166 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: at some recent point. Was it. Harvard Uh named Richard 167 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: rang Um, and he wrote a book laying out this 168 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: argument in two thousand nine called Catching Fire, How Cooking 169 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: Made is Human. Rang Um is also one of the 170 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: authors of this paper about whether apes prefer cooked food. 171 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 1: And I'm not going to go into all of the 172 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: pros and cons the arguments for and against the cooking 173 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 1: hypothe sis. I would just say that my personal evaluation 174 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: at a at a cursory reading of it is that 175 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: it looks like it's kind of in the middle zone. 176 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: It's one of those arguments that seems to have a 177 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: lot of interesting things going for it, but it also 178 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: doesn't line up all that well with the best existing 179 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: evidence about the timeline for the control of fire by 180 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: human ancestors. So I don't know. I'd say it's, uh, 181 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: it's interesting but far from conclusive. But regardless of what 182 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: we think about the the evolutionary effects of cooking on 183 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: our direct ancestors, pointing out the theoretical background helps us 184 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: see why the researchers performed the experiments described in this paper. 185 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: So the authors of this paper begin raising a relevant question, 186 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: which is that if you were to walk up to 187 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: one of our ancestors roughly two million years ago, maybe 188 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: to a member of the species Homo erectus, and you 189 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: offered them cooked food, are we sure that they would 190 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: like it or that they would prefer it to the 191 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: same food in its uncooked state. You mean, like like 192 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: a hot pocket. If you brought a hot pocket to 193 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: one of our our ancestors, what would they make of it? 194 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: And I feel quite certain that somebody who showed up 195 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: with a hot pocket would be regarded as a worker 196 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: of evil magic. But anyway, I mean, I think this 197 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: is a worthwhile question to ask because we know that 198 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: there are lots of types of food that we would 199 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: probably rather eat cooked than raw. Maybe lots of you know, 200 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: in this very person to person, but probably most people 201 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: would rather eat grain, tough vegetables, most meats, and so 202 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: forth in their cooked state. But it's possible that's just 203 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: a cultural preference. So you know, we like cooked food 204 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: maybe because we're used to it. Is there any way 205 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: to test this out? And the authors here say, well, 206 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: obviously not with archaic common ins, but an interesting analog 207 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: would be to offer both cooked and raw versions of 208 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: the same food to great apes, our closest living relatives, 209 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: and see what their preferences are. So that's what this 210 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: study looked into. So experiment number one, they were like, hey, 211 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: let's try some tubers. Let's let's get together some care 212 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: it's some sweet potatoes and some white potatoes and offer 213 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: them to chimpanzees in a choice task that exposes them 214 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: to both and then allows them to pick between the 215 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: cooked and raw forms. And they found in the case 216 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: of carrots and sweet potatoes, the chimpanzees definitely liked the 217 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: cooked version better. On the other hand, it was interesting 218 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: the white potato was more of a toss up. The 219 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: authors noted that many chimps seemed kind of hesitant to 220 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: take the initial samples of both cooked and raw white potatoes, 221 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: and it was it was basically there was no difference 222 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: in their preference between the two, which seems surprising to 223 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: me because like, I love raw carrots. The cooked carrots 224 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 1: are good too, but I cannot imagine wanting to eat 225 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: a raw potato now. But the author said, well, maybe 226 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,119 Speaker 1: the chimpanzees are just kind of iffy on on potatoes 227 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: in general. Okay, well that would make sense. Now. A 228 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: second experiment they did had trouble really getting much of 229 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: an answer. But what they looked into was to the 230 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: extent that apes prefer cooked food overaw food. Why do 231 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: they like it better? Is it the taste? Is it 232 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: something about the texture. And so they experimented with a 233 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: number of different grade apes they use chimp, spinobos, gorillas, 234 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: and orangutans, and they offered them choices between carrots in 235 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: the following format. So you could have whole pieces of 236 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: carrot raw or cooked, grated carrot raw or cooked, and 237 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: mashed carrot raw or cooked. And they found that when 238 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: carrots were whole, apes definitely preferred the cooked pieces to 239 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: the raw pieces. Again that they like cooked better, But 240 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,959 Speaker 1: after that things got more complicated. Apes generally did not 241 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: seem to like the grated carrot in any format, and 242 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: they preferred cooked whole carrots to raw, grated or cooked grated. 243 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: Preferences were less clear in the mashed condition, though. They 244 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: explained that some difference in results between the animal test 245 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: groups for this experiment could have been influenced by neophobia, 246 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: meaning fear of food in unfamiliar forms of course. You 247 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: know that's common among humans also, is that we typically 248 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,319 Speaker 1: we like food. It's that we're familiar with and we're 249 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: a little uh sometimes we're a little hesitant about foods 250 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: that are unfamiliar. Yeah, like, for instance, the mashed carrot. 251 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: How did it get mashed? But you know, if you 252 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 1: were to encounter a mashed carrot in the wild, um, 253 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: you know, they're the possibilities are not all that appetizing. Yeah, Okay. 254 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: Experiment three or four, uh, and this one the author 255 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: is right quote. This experiment provided great apes with choices 256 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: between raw and cooked meat and raw and cooked apple 257 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: malice domestica. We controlled for neophobia in this experiment because 258 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: one of these items was familiar in its raw form 259 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: apple and the other was familiar in its cooked form meat. Thus, 260 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: this juxtaposed preference is determined by taste, slash, texture, and 261 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: those which would be determined by familiarity with the test items. 262 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: And in this test, the apes definitely preferred cooked beef 263 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,479 Speaker 1: over raw beef, but they did not show a significant 264 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: preference one way or the other about the apple. Um. Again, 265 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: it's funny thinking about how much this does or does 266 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: not overlap with with our own preferences, though again, you 267 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: know human preferences you always have to wonder about being 268 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: a product of cultural familiarity. But they say the shows 269 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: that neophobia is not the only factor affecting preferences because 270 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: the apes were previously familiar only with raw apple, not cooked, 271 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: and in this experiment, while they did not prefer the 272 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: cooked apple, they basically showed no difference in preference between 273 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: the two. Now, I mean, in all of this, we 274 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: have the saying about comparing apples and oranges, in here 275 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: we're comparing apples and meat. Uh So, I don't know, 276 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: it feels I mean not that there's really a way 277 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: to improve on this. I'm not. I don't mean to 278 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: criticize the study, but it's like they're there are certain 279 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: limitations in place with some of these comparisons. I feel, 280 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: what do you mean that in that they're they're documenting 281 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: different preferences by types of food like well, like, for 282 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: for instance, to say, well we control for neophobia because 283 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: the raw form apple will still looks like an apple, 284 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: and the and the cooked meat still looks like the meat. Um, 285 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: I don't know. I find that kind of a confusing rationale. 286 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: Oh no, no, I think you're misunderstanding what they were doing. 287 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: That they the neophobia thing was that they were familiar 288 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: with cooked meat and with raw apple, but not with 289 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: cooked apple or raw meat. And so they were trying 290 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: to see, um, does this make any like does it 291 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: just conform to in both cases? Do they prefer whatever 292 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: they're previously familiar with. In the case of meat, they did. 293 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: In the case of apple not so much. But they 294 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: did another test. Uh. The fourth experiment was a test 295 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: for novelty. Uh. They said, quote, we tested chimpanzees that 296 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: were not given meat as a regular part of their 297 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: diet and as far as was known, had never eaten 298 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: cooked meat. And so they're offered raw and cooked beef, 299 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: and again they definitely preferred the cooked beef better than 300 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: the raw. So in the final discussion they say, yeah, 301 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: on average, and the foods they tested here apes liked 302 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: cooked food better than raw food. With some exceptions, they 303 00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: definitely prefer cooked beef, carrots, and sweet potatoes. They don't 304 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: seem to have much of a preference on average between 305 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: the cooked and raw forms of apple and white potato. 306 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: And it seems like in general just didn't really love 307 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: white potato. Uh. And then so they said neophobia might 308 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: be a contributing factor to some of these results, but 309 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: in experiments that tried to control for it, the ape 310 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: still on average thought we're pretty cool with the cooked 311 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: versions of food. But finally that this experiment had difficulty 312 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:29,479 Speaker 1: determining which characteristics of cooked foods the apes were responding to, 313 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,479 Speaker 1: you know, was it taste, was a texture, and so forth. 314 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: And I do think that's an interesting question, like if 315 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: if animals other than humans also prefer cooked food in 316 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: most cases, why is it, like does it taste better 317 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: to them? Is it like because it's softer to chew? 318 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe maybe we can come back to that. 319 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: But anyway, the authors, you know, I mean it's difficult 320 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: too because we have to stop and realize, like when 321 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: they're talking about the difference between a cooked and a 322 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: raw white potato, the cooked white potato in this experiment 323 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: is also not buttered and salted and you know, and 324 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: and prepared in these other ways. Like we're just stripping 325 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: it down to um, to the basics of what cooking 326 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: does to uh, this particular substance. Um. So, yeah, like 327 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: if I were, you know, trying to set aside as 328 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,479 Speaker 1: much a you know human complexity as possible. If I 329 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: were presented with just a plain white potato and a 330 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: raw potato, I mean, I'd like to think I would 331 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: still prefer the piked potato to the to the raw potato, 332 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: but without anything added to it, it's still not a 333 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: very attractive offer. Like the potato is is something that 334 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 1: is best um consumed when there are other things done 335 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 1: to it, other seasonings, other styles of preparation, etcetera. The 336 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: human mind cannot comprehend the depths of blindness of a 337 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: of an unseasoned potato. Yeah, the carrot is really the 338 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: one that that throws me the most, you know, like 339 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: because it part of me would guess that there's nothing 340 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: quite like the raw crispness of the right like the 341 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: carrot is crisp, we identify that with with freshness. The 342 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: carrot is sweet. Um, Like what is changed in cooking 343 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: the carrot that that that would that would make it 344 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: more preferable, Like is it just it's just softer? Is 345 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: it therefore seem riper in that sense? And then how 346 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: does that affect the sweetness of it? With the sweetness 347 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: be in any way enhanced by the cooking, I think 348 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: in general, I can't speak to carrots in particular, but 349 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: the authors actually address this. They say, um so, they 350 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: talk about hypothesizing reasons that non human animals would prefer 351 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 1: cooked food overall food, and uh so, one of the 352 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: avenues they talk about is that cooking tends to cause 353 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: chemical changes that increase the availability of flavor compounds that 354 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: animals of all kinds seem to like. And so that 355 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: the two main examples they offer are available sugars and 356 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: available glutamates. Now sugars, that's I'm pretty clear to understand, 357 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: and we can know that from experience. I don't know 358 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: about carrots. It probab conforms to this and carrots, But 359 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 1: I think about like onions, like eating a raw onion 360 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: versus eating a cooked onion. The cooked onion is so 361 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: much sweeter, like the you know, the amount of sugar 362 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: you can taste in it is, I don't know, it 363 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: feels like it's exponential above a raw onion. And yeah, 364 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,239 Speaker 1: and that's that's the case to where by cooking the 365 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: onion you're kind of blunting it's um it's effects like 366 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: the chemical weaponry if the onion is diluted. Yeah, the 367 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: sulfur compounds and stuff, so so that's sugars. Apparently lots 368 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: of foods have more available sugars when you cook them, 369 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: so they taste sweeter. Tons of different animals can differentiate 370 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 1: the levels of sugar and a food they're eating, and 371 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: obviously prefer the thing that tastes like it's got more 372 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: sugar in it because it is probably going to be 373 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: more nutritionally dense, it has more calories per amount of 374 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 1: the same amount of food. Uh. The other thing is 375 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: the available glutamates. Glutamates are uh you know, does that 376 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: ring a bell? Maybe it's in the phrase monose sodium 377 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: glutamate MSG flavor, the umami flavor. Glutamates are are largely 378 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: responsible for savory flavors that we associate with meat and 379 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: and uh and also things like tomatoes and hard cheeses 380 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: like parmesan and soy sauce and those those glutamates or 381 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: that delicious savory umami feeling. And that's not just for 382 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: humans either. It turns out tons of animals, I think 383 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: even some invertebrates can detect umami flavor through the presence 384 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: of free glutamates, which are increased by cooking. And while 385 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: I was reading about this, I did get really amused 386 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: by the idea of like inverted. I don't know which 387 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: invertebrates exactly, but like do with lobsters really love soy sauce, 388 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: would like there'll be centipedes who are going nuts for 389 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: parmesan cheese. Thank anyway, Okay, So cooking often increases the 390 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: availability of sugars and glutamates. So that's a flavor increasing 391 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: flavors that broadly lots of an almost seem to like. 392 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: And cooking tends to change the texture of food, usually 393 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: by making it softer and easier to chew, and of 394 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: course that appeals to the natural laziness present in all 395 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: kinds of animals, not just us. So I think you 396 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: could possibly argue that in a way, cooking, by massively 397 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: increasing the presence of taste and texture qualities that our 398 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: bodies and brains are already naturally on the look for, 399 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: cooking could be viewed as a sort of ancient form 400 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: of supernormal stimuli, like evolution shaped animal appetites to seek 401 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: out nutritionally dense things like sugar and glutamates, which we 402 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: detect by taste. Cooking causes chemical reactions that make more 403 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: of those molecules available. Cooking softens food, appealing to our 404 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: natural laziness. We don't like to spend an hour chewing 405 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: on some tough bit of something to get it down. 406 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: Tender food is better than tough food. So it's kind 407 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: of like it's it's taking all these things we naturally 408 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 1: seek out in foods we would find find in our environment, 409 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: but making them way were dependably present in all kinds 410 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: of foods. But anyway, the the authors of this study 411 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: I was talking about, they say that their their findings 412 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: conformed other bits of pre existing evidence that many other 413 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: non human animals on average prefer cooked food overaw food. 414 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: For instance, they cite a book by Brewer in nineteen 415 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: seventy eight alleging observations that chimpanzees in the wild would 416 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: prefer to eat seeds that have been naturally cooked or 417 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: at least heated by wildfires. This was in a book 418 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: by Brewer called The Chimpanzees of Mount Assyrik And uh, well, 419 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: I thought that was interesting. Yeah, yeah, like that it's 420 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: kind of primordial cooking right there. And they cite findings 421 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: of of preferences in other mammals for example, Bradshaw at 422 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: All in two thousand found that once cats have been 423 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: exposed to both raw and cooked meat, they tend to 424 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: prefer the cooked version. And they point to Ramirez in 425 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: which found that rats ford cooked starch overaw starch. But 426 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: I was looking at another study that actually asked a 427 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: complementary question. So if the first question is do great 428 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: apes such as chimpanzees prefer cooked food overaw food, it 429 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: seems in in the majority of cases they do. Um 430 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: the second question is do they in fact possess the 431 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: ability to understand the cooking process? Would they, in theory 432 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: at least be able to cook for themselves? And the 433 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: study that looked into this was by Felix Varnicin and 434 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: Alexandra g Rosati published in Proceedings of the Royal Society 435 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: b Biological Sciences, called cognitive capacities for cooking in chimpanzees 436 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: and this was and so the author's right here quote. 437 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: The transition to a cook to diet represents an important 438 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: shift in human ecology and evolution. Cooking requires a set 439 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: of sophisticated cognitive abilities, including causal reasoning, self control, and 440 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 1: anticipatory planning. Do humans uniquely possessed the cognitive capacity is 441 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: needed to cook food. And oh man, when I when 442 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: I was reading that line about about cooking requiring self 443 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: control and anticipatory planning, I I felt a little bit 444 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: cheapish because it immediately made me think about the problem 445 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: of Uh Rob, I don't know if you do you 446 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: do this too, but you're like cooking something and you 447 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: just kind of keep snacking on it. Yeah, I mean 448 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: you encountered that definitely with your more complicated recipes where um, 449 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: I don't know, say you've h like a shepherd's pie 450 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 1: comes to mind. I've recently made a vegetarian shepherd's pie 451 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: for the weekend St. Patty's Day, And uh, yeah, once 452 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: you've made like one part of it, like maybe you've 453 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: made the um, the mashed potatoes, or you've made the 454 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: you know, the the the meat and vegetable filling, Uh, 455 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: you might be tempted, especially if you're a little bit hungry, 456 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: you might be tempted to do taste and keep tasting 457 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: those portions before everything comes together. Is one. Uh However, 458 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 1: we tend if we're making shepherd's pie, were usually not 459 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: tempted to eat the raw potatoes or right or or 460 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: something like that before we begin cooking. But yeah, you know, 461 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: like you've you've gone past the point where you're testing 462 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: it for seasoning or whatever. Is just like okay, yeah, 463 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: maybe have a little another bite of this, right, We 464 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: were like, we're not gonna go hog wild eating a 465 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: munch of just raw flour right out of the bag. 466 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: But of course once the cookie dough is prepared, that 467 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: is where the temptation may set it. Well, it turns 468 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: out some chimpanzees have the same problem, but they do 469 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: better at these kinds of anticipation and delay of gratification 470 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 1: tasks then you might expect. So this study addressed these 471 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: questions by performing some experiments with our closest living relatives, 472 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: chimpanzees uh. The author has conducted a total of nine 473 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 1: studies on chimpanzees living in a nature sanctuary in the 474 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: Democratic Republic of Congo with the following results. They found. 475 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: First of all, they replicated the finding that chimpanzees in 476 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: general prefer cooked foods over the same foods in their 477 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 1: raw form. Second finding is that chimpanzees in some way 478 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: do under stand that food is changed by the cooking process. 479 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: They can tell the difference and Uh, they understand something 480 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: is happening when a raw food is exchanged for a 481 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 1: cooked food. Third, they will delay gratification in order to 482 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 1: upgrade a raw piece of food to a cooked version 483 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: of that same food. Fourth, they will give up possession 484 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: of a raw piece of food already in hand in 485 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: order to transform it into a cooked food. And then fifth, 486 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: they will transport or store raw food in anticipation of 487 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: later opportunities to exchange it for its cooked form. And 488 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: an interesting note on the method. I was like, wait 489 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: a minute, are they going to be giving apes like 490 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: an oven or something. They did not do that, actually, uh, 491 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: because of course they didn't want to run the risk 492 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,479 Speaker 1: of the animals burning or otherwise injuring themselves. Instead, they 493 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: used a plastic box with a false bottom that would 494 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: exchange a piece of raw food for a piece of 495 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: cooked food when shaken. Okay, I mean there are some 496 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: limitations there obviously, but that that's essentially what an oven does. 497 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,959 Speaker 1: I guess, right, Well, obviously this is not the exact 498 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,199 Speaker 1: same thing as the cooking process, but they're trying to 499 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: figure out, well, the chimpanzees at least figure out that 500 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: there is a process they can put raw food through 501 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: and get cooked food out, and will they delay gratification 502 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: to go through that process? And the answer is broadly yes. 503 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 1: The authors of the study right quote Together, our results 504 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: indicate that several of the fundamental psychological abilities necessary to 505 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: engage in cooking may have been shared with the last 506 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: common ancestor of apes and humans, predating the control of fire. 507 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: Uh and uh. I was reading a write up of 508 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: this article in The Guardian by Hannah Devlin that had 509 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: some good supplemental details. Uh. One thing I wanted to 510 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: read this paragraph definitely made me say all buddy out loud. 511 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: It was quote the chimps continue to opt for the 512 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: cooked option sixt of the time when they had to 513 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,959 Speaker 1: carry the food some distance in order to place it 514 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: in the quote oven, although since they often carried it 515 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: in their mouth, this was a challenge and they sometimes 516 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: appeared to eat the food on the way quote almost 517 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: by accident. I sympathize with that, you know, the best 518 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: of intentions. You know sometimes that that sweet tapos in 519 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: your mouth and you're just going to start you in. Uh. 520 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: The other thing was that, in terms of hoarding raw 521 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: ingredients in the hopes that they could later be exchanged 522 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: for cooked foods. Chimps in some cases hoarded up to 523 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: twenty eight slices of sweet potato. Uh and Varnakin said 524 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: to The Guardian, quote delayed ratification is a problem for 525 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: us as well. We also have a tendency to nibble 526 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: at food before we finished cooking. So that's exactly what 527 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: we were talking about. And they don't even have excuses 528 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: for it, like, you know, they can't rationally use the 529 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: rationale well, i'm I'm I need to taste it to 530 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: make sure that the flavor profiles appropriate, the need to 531 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: make sure I don't need to add more salt or pepper, right. 532 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: But while I think this is interesting and it's informative 533 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: to the question of when humans first started cooking their 534 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: food and what effects that may have had on on 535 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: our ancestors one to two million years ago. Of course, 536 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: the fact remains that there are no widely observed natural 537 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: instances of animals in their natural habitat cooking foods by 538 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: applying heat. But as we said earlier, heating is not 539 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: the only form of cooking. Humans do all kinds of 540 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: things to food that fall under the umbrella of cooking 541 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: or cuisine that are unrelated to heat. So we take 542 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: raw or cooked food items and we wash them, or 543 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: we age them, or we ferment them, and we season them, 544 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: we butcher them in certain ways, we skewer them or 545 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: cut them up in special ways, we combine them together 546 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: in interesting ways. And it's frankly surprising how many of 547 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: these culinary manipulations and modifications that humans do are mirrored 548 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: at some level throughout the animal world. And so I 549 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: thought that's what we could explore for the remainder of 550 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: this series, all the different ways that animals cook. And 551 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: you had some really interesting examples. I think that had 552 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: to do with maybe what could broadly be called some 553 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: form of butchering or skewering of food as a preparation method. Yeah. Yeah, 554 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,479 Speaker 1: I have a couple of good examples here, um and uh. 555 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: And one of them I think is a pretty pretty 556 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: obvious one. Let's start with an amusing one, but perhaps 557 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: the less involved one, and that is the case of 558 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: the lamber guy or or bearded fulture. So these birds 559 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: are found in parts of Africa and Eurasia, and these 560 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: birds are known for their amazing ability to eat and 561 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: digest bones, and I think that's that's one of the reasons. 562 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: This is a great example bird to start with, because 563 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: it already has robust um anatomical features and internal abilities 564 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: when it comes to the processing of of what is 565 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: you know, arguably a very difficult food. They're they're eating bones, 566 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: but they have you know, they have these wonderful bites. 567 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: They can bite through brittle bones, they can swallow large 568 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: chunks of bones, and their digestive system can handle it. Um. 569 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: And yet there are still going to be challenges that 570 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: are too great for them to handle without a little 571 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: ingenuity um and uh. And so basically they have a 572 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: butchering challenge ahead of them. You know. Butchering is what 573 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: we do when we we have a carcass and we 574 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: don't just want to eat from the carcass. We can't 575 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: cook the whole carcass. We have to take things apart, 576 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: remove things that are inedible or are not desired or 577 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: used for at another time or for another purpose, you know, 578 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: all the various reasons you have to take a part 579 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: of a carcass. Um. Yeah. And in fact, external processing 580 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: of animal carcasses is hypoth It's not known for sure, 581 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: but it is hypothesized to be one of the earliest 582 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: drivers of tool use in humans. That why would a 583 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: humans start using a flat rock as a cutting surface, 584 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: maybe to get meat and tough hide parts and stuff 585 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: off of an animal kill. Yeah. Yeah, that we've talked 586 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: about that on the show in the past when when 587 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: talking about early tool use and evidence of how those 588 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: tools are being used. You know, we can look for 589 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: those signs um on the bones of them having been scraped. 590 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: In some cases, it's also evidence of cannibalism taking place 591 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: um in a given people versus uh, you know, I'm 592 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: just merror um you know, murder or warfare because of 593 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: the signs of tool use on the brains. Yeah. So 594 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: uh yeah, this is a case where the lamber guy 595 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: are is gonna occasionally find some chunks of bone that 596 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: are too big to handle. They need to butcher it, 597 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: they need to take it apart. Uh but what what 598 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: tools are available to them? Well, luckily they can. They 599 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: can pick up a pretty big bone. I think, I 600 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: think they can basically take off with something equal to 601 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: their own weight. Um. So they've developed the practice of 602 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: taking larger bones up high into the air and then 603 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: dropping them onto rocks in order to break them open 604 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: or shatter them. Sometimes it takes more than one try, 605 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: and it's a it's also a learned tactic, so generally 606 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: it takes around seven years for one of these birds 607 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: to to master it. And you'll find examples of immature birds, uh, 608 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: just dropping bones incorrectly, like they haven't really figured out 609 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: exactly where you're supposed to drop them or or when 610 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: you release them. But they'll get there. They'll eventually learn it, 611 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: and it will open up new possibilities to them in 612 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: terms of what they can eat. Oh that's my second 613 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: al buddy of the episodes, imagining the vultures dropping the 614 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: bones wrong, Like, yeah, nice job, Ted. Now they sometimes 615 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: um prey on I'm live creatures as well. It's not 616 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: just bones. And probably one of the more um alarming 617 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: and interesting examples is that of the tortoise. They may 618 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: fly up with a tortoise that again has to be 619 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: a tortoise they can physically carry up, but then they 620 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:45,240 Speaker 1: can drop that as well, treat it like an oversized bone, 621 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: an attempt to bust through those bony defenses. And uh, 622 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: this may ring a bell for for some of you 623 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: out there, because this is of course how the Greek 624 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: father of tragedy, Escalus, was said to have died in 625 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: four see uh this according to the two accounts by M. 626 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: Valerius Maximus and our old friend Plenty of the Elder. Now, 627 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: this may well just be a story. We have to 628 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:15,240 Speaker 1: drive him, but it basically goes like this. Yeah, Escalus 629 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: goes to an oracle. He receives a prophecy that he 630 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: will he will one day be killed by a falling object. 631 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: So he's a smart guy. He says, well, nothing can 632 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: fall on me if I'm outdoors. So he spends more 633 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: and more time outdoors because, yeah, there's nothing's going to 634 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: fall from the roof. There, no shelves. Sounds like a 635 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 1: pretty safe that. Yeah, that makes sense. It's like, if 636 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: there's an earthquake, where do you want to be get 637 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: away from Buildings're gonna be out in the middle of 638 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: a field, right. Unfortunately he is in the territory of 639 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: the lamber guy or it's thought that this may may 640 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: be referring to Lamber guyers Um. Suddenly a great bird 641 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: flies over head. That great bird has a tortoise in 642 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 1: its clutches, and it mistakes escalus head for a hard 643 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 1: rock um. A lot of times he's depicted as being, 644 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: you know, bald on top, and so the bird drops 645 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: the tortoise on him, killing him instantly. Um. Again, possibly 646 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 1: just a misunderstanding or an entertaining tale. Um. But you'll 647 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,280 Speaker 1: find various accounts of deaths like this from the ancient 648 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: world where you have to stop and ask, did they 649 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: really die like this or is this just a nice story? 650 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: This is the story that developed about their death. If true, 651 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: he died by accidentally running a foul of an avian 652 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: butchery processes. Some I'm seeing vague connections to the Texas 653 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: chainsaw masker. But now when it comes to a van butchery. 654 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: The best example, of course is the shrike. Now, if 655 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: you've never seen a shrike, let's look up pictures of them. 656 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 1: But they're they're generally, I mean, for me, they're an 657 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: unimpressive looking bird. Uh. This is gonna be different for you, 658 00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: depending on how into birds you are and if you're 659 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 1: or a birdwatcher, etcetera. But you know, they when you 660 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,399 Speaker 1: when you compare what they look like with what they do, Uh, 661 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: they don't look quite as impressive in my opinion, because 662 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: what they do is very impressive. Uh. They're thirty four 663 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: species of shrike in four genera in the family lanta day. 664 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: And if you're yeah, if you're not a bird enthusiast 665 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 1: or a bird watcher, uh, you might just look at 666 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: a shrike and say, well, that looks like a bird, 667 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: But it's not what they look like. It's what they do. 668 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: And basically what they do is they engage in kind 669 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,919 Speaker 1: of a complex butchery situation. That's why we call them 670 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: butcher birds. Lanta day is derived from the Latin uh lantus, 671 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 1: which means butcher. So they don't wear little aprons or 672 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: you know, wrap morsels of meat and white butcher's paper. 673 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: But what they do is they take insects and even 674 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: small vertebrates that they kill and they impale them onto 675 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,799 Speaker 1: thorns like little lad draculas. Wow. And by the way, 676 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 1: their methods, you know, it's one thing to get the is, 677 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: you know, various bugs and insects, but their method of 678 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,399 Speaker 1: killing small rodents is actually quite brutal. Is pointed out 679 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: by Hannah Waters in a two eighteen article for the 680 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: Audubon Society. Quote, they grasp mice by the neck with 681 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: their pointed beak pinched the spinal cord to induce paralysis, 682 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: and then vigorously shake their prey with enough force to 683 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: break its neck. Oh, that's interesting because it's like a 684 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 1: bird version of a common predatory tactic I think used 685 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: about like some big cats. Right. We talked about this 686 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: with Mary Roach in her book, talking about various kinds 687 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,240 Speaker 1: of big predatory cats that will attend to bite along 688 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: the back of the neck, which is how their characteristic 689 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 1: attacks are identified in humans. Yeah. I have noticed this 690 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: when I watched all the Jurassic Park movies with my 691 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: son a year or so ago. Well, I forget which 692 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: one it was in, but there's one in particular where 693 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,760 Speaker 1: you see the dinosaurs, the raptors in particular, UM, killing 694 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 1: by by clamping onto the back of the neck, which 695 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: I thought was a nice touch. So anyway, but no 696 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: it was. No. I but I've got a question. Okay, 697 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 1: so this seems gratuitous. The bird just takes its prey, 698 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,919 Speaker 1: which normal bird would would just capture and then kill 699 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: and then eat. But this bird impales it on a 700 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,320 Speaker 1: thorn on a plant. Why do we have any idea 701 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 1: like what the purpose of this is? Uh? Yeah, and 702 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: there seemed to be three different reasons, um, and I 703 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: do have to acknowledge that, yes, this is exactly what 704 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: you mentioned Texas chainsal Masca earlier. This is exactly what 705 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: happens in one of the kills in tcm Uh. He 706 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: cracks a victim on the head, uh, you know, and 707 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: take takes her out, but then he sticks her onto 708 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: a meat hook. Uh. And that's that's basically what the 709 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: shrike is doing. So there are three different reasons to 710 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 1: do this that that researchers have identified. One and this 711 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: is pretty neat and this is this is is that 712 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 1: it's about tearing the meat once and let's say an 713 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,919 Speaker 1: insect is impaled on that thorn. You can then pull 714 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 1: on the creature's body and you can rip it, cut 715 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 1: it into smaller pieces. So it's leverage. It allows you 716 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: to get better leverage on the for butchering the insect body. Right. 717 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 1: It's it's not something we really do because we you know, 718 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,760 Speaker 1: we can use farm you know, all these other tools. 719 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: But imagine if you didn't have tools, if the thorn 720 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,359 Speaker 1: was the only tool. Um, because that's particularly i mean, 721 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: that's exactly the situation that the bird is in. The 722 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: next reasons for the shrike to put something on the 723 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: on the on the thorn is just as a means 724 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,359 Speaker 1: of storing the meat. Uneaten portions of the meat can 725 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: be left on the thorns and the bird can return 726 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: later to eat some more m okay, as opposed to 727 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: like storing it on the ground where something else is 728 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 1: more likely to come along and take it. Right. And 729 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: then finally, this is I think probably the most interesting 730 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: of the three and one that um I wasn't really 731 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: familiar with that I was. I knew about shrikes and 732 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 1: about the category one and two here. But the third 733 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: reason is to potentially detoxify the meat um. And this 734 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: is where we get more specific with this with some 735 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 1: of the prey species that are targeted. Uh. It's a 736 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: way of processing the meat of a toxic prey animal 737 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 1: UM so that the bird can then eat it. So 738 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,280 Speaker 1: the bird will leave a body on the spike for 739 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,719 Speaker 1: like a period of one to two days, allowing the 740 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: toxins in the body to degrade to the point where 741 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: it can be safely eaten. Okay. So this might be 742 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 1: the case in like an insect that has a poison 743 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 1: within its body that has a fairly short chemical half life, 744 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,240 Speaker 1: and it's if it's not replenished by the live animals body, 745 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: it's going to eventually degrade over time exactly. Yeah, and 746 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: some for some specific examples. The loggerhead shrike does this 747 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: with luber grasshoppers as well as with the species of 748 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: beetle and moth, and great gray shrikes have been observed 749 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: to do this with black cone headed grasshoppers. So so, yeah, 750 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: the shrike is is fascinating, not only because there's something 751 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 1: kind of grizzly and wonderful about what it does. Uh. 752 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 1: But yeah, by doing these three things with its practice, Uh, 753 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,799 Speaker 1: it's engaging in a in in several different things that 754 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,360 Speaker 1: that we do with our with our cooking process, you know, 755 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: the butchery of the meat, the butcher or they just 756 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: the the taking a part of a given element, uh, 757 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: the storing of that element and then detoxifying that element. Now, 758 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 1: we tend to we do this in a number of 759 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: different ways. It may be cooking something and the cooking process, 760 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: the heating process itself destroys the toxins. It also maybe 761 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: and we've touched on this before in our Dangerous Food series, 762 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: it may also be about removing parts of the body 763 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,840 Speaker 1: or parts of the plant that would otherwise be toxic 764 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 1: to us. Uh. But but we have just specific cases 765 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,319 Speaker 1: of the of the shrike carrying this out just by 766 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,879 Speaker 1: leaving it on the thorn long enough. Well, I'm impressed. Yes, 767 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,360 Speaker 1: they are impressive creatures. All right, Well, we need to 768 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: wrap up part one here, but we're going to be 769 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: back next time with more of the uh the quote 770 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 1: cooking or otherwise, you know, meal prep cuisine behaviors of 771 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 1: non human animals. Definitely want to talk about some interesting 772 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: behaviors that have been called washing, but maybe more obscure 773 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: in nature than that. Yeah, in some cases at least 774 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: it's kind of mysterious. And we'll get into into all 775 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: of that, plus plus other examples in the meantime. Certainly, 776 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 1: right in, let us know what you think about what 777 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: we discussed here today, especially if you have any direct 778 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,400 Speaker 1: experience with us. Have you observed the shrikes in the wild, 779 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 1: have lambergeyers dropped tortoises at you? And you've you know, 780 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,239 Speaker 1: luckily been able to get a less rocky looking hat 781 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 1: over your head just in time. Do you prefer raw 782 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 1: potatoes to cook? Oh? Yeah, yeah, I mean he's going 783 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,759 Speaker 1: to have some insight on all of that, so yeah, 784 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: right in, let us know, we'd love to hear from you. 785 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,440 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to check out 786 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,640 Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. Core episodes 787 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,719 Speaker 1: published on two season Thursdays. On Monday we do a 788 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 1: listener mail, on wind Day we do a short form 789 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,719 Speaker 1: monster fact or Artifact episode, and on Fridays we do 790 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 1: Weird How Cinema. That's our time to satisfied most serious 791 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,080 Speaker 1: concerns and just talk about a strange film huge things. 792 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 1: As always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 793 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:15,359 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 794 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,920 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 795 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:19,840 Speaker 1: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you 796 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,359 Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 797 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:32,360 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production 798 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, 799 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're 800 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows.