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Speaker 1: Hey there, I'm jess Mi Lady Confetti Here. Hi, I'm

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Speaker 1: Psyche and I am Hey Shady Lady, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: Boss Level podcast, where we feature conversations with gas tube

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Speaker 1: We picked the brains of professionals, creators and bosses and

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Speaker 1: but a gamified an engaged community. Listen to Boss Level

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Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Raised by Wolves the podcast is

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Speaker 1: back for season two. I'm Holly Fry and as host

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Speaker 1: of the companion podcast to the hit HBO Max sci

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Speaker 1: fi series Raised by Wolves, i am unwrapping the latest

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Speaker 1: season of this cosmic space opera for fans by talking

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Speaker 1: directly to some of the incredibly talented folks who helped

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Speaker 1: bring the show to life. Stream Raised by Wolves now

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Speaker 1: on HBO Max and subscribe and listen to Raised by

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Speaker 1: Wolves the podcast on the I Heart Radio app, HBO Max,

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Speaker 1: Apple podcast Gusts or wherever you get your podcasts Okay recording.

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Speaker 1: You have a story to tell and maybe you've thought

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Speaker 1: I should start a podcast, Meet Anchor. It's a powerful

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Speaker 1: That's Anchor, dot fm, slash get started. Great. I think

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Speaker 1: we got it. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to let you know. This is a compilation episode.

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Speaker 1: So every episode of the week that just happened is

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Speaker 1: here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package

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Speaker 1: for you to listen to in a long stretch if

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Speaker 1: you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every

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Speaker 1: day this week, there's gonna be nothing new here for you,

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Speaker 1: but you can make your own decisions. Everyone. I'm Robert

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Speaker 1: Evans and this is Myanmar printing the Revolutions and it

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Speaker 1: could happen here. Special mini series, an in depth documentary

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Speaker 1: investigation with me and journalist James Stout. Over the next

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Speaker 1: four days, you're going to learn about the gen Z

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Speaker 1: militias of the mean Mar Civil War, three D printed weapons,

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Speaker 1: and a bunch of other really fascinating stuff. Besides, so,

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Speaker 1: without any further ado, here's James. Ever since the first

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Speaker 1: person built the first fence, took land from everybody and

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Speaker 1: annexed it to themselves, property rights and violence have gone

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Speaker 1: hand in hand. With property grew the state, and when

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Speaker 1: the state came the police. Today most of us grew

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Speaker 1: up under the control of states, and they're so ubiquitous

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Speaker 1: that their violence is often overlooked until a particularly agreed

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Speaker 1: to this incident occurs. But all states, even the most benign,

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Speaker 1: rest on a monopoly on violence. State to the entities

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Speaker 1: that imposed laws on a given area, and if you

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Speaker 1: break those laws, state can beat you up, a lot

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Speaker 1: you up, or shoot you up. When the state loses

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Speaker 1: the monopoly on violence, it ceases to be able to

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Speaker 1: enforce its laws, charge its taxes, and enforce its will

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Speaker 1: on the people at rules. We've seen this all over

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Speaker 1: the world, from the Democratic Republic of Congo to briefly

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Speaker 1: downtown Seattle. Our state in the USA speaks the language

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Speaker 1: of rights and liberties. When we want to appeal to

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Speaker 1: the state, we tend to use that language. Even though

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Speaker 1: our state, as we saw in it's backed by plenty

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Speaker 1: of violence as much as any other. It goes a

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Speaker 1: long way to camouflage that violence. Some states are a

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Speaker 1: bit more mask off. They speak to their citizens more

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Speaker 1: or less exclusively through violence, and when citizens need to

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Speaker 1: respond to that state, they respond to the language it

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Speaker 1: uses to speak to them. That's how a teenager from Yangon,

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Speaker 1: Myanmar ended up on Reddit in summer of one asking

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Speaker 1: strangers how to use a three D printer and computer

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Speaker 1: to make a rifle. Me and Ma isn't a country

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Speaker 1: that is on the radar for most of the US.

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Speaker 1: If it is at all, it's probably because the State

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Speaker 1: Council and Foreign Minister on Scien Succhi. She managed perhaps

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Speaker 1: the history's fastest pivot from Nobel Peace Price winner to

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Speaker 1: head of a government accused of genocide. But Suki is

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Speaker 1: in jail now and the Rahania, the muslimmethnic group that

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Speaker 1: the military attempted to eliminate from the east of the

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Speaker 1: country under her rule, are just one of many ethnic

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Speaker 1: and political groups. They're an open armed conflict with the military,

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Speaker 1: who now hold control of the government of Myanmar, known

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Speaker 1: luckily as a tapmad or the military sees power. In

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Speaker 1: early one you might have seen a video of a

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Speaker 1: woman doing an aerobics workout as the vehicles rolled in

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Speaker 1: behind her to seize power. Ever since that day, they've

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Speaker 1: been committing crimes against humanity all over the country. Miama

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Speaker 1: has a longer history of dictatorship than democracy. The British

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Speaker 1: East India Company occupied the area that now represents the

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Speaker 1: country in the nineteenth century. As always they talked about

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Speaker 1: civilizing missions and freedoms, but in practice the occupation was

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Speaker 1: extractive and only benefit the Anglo Burmese and a few

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Speaker 1: Indian civil servants they brought with them often. But this

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Speaker 1: month led to resistance that manifested itself in hunger strikes

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Speaker 1: and everyday acts of disobedience, small ways of saying no.

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Speaker 1: In a few instances, it became open and unbrest builed

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Speaker 1: into the streets. The country became a major battle ground

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Speaker 1: during the Second World War, with Japan evading and seizing

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Speaker 1: the country before Allied forces took it back In a

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Speaker 1: fierce campaign in nineteen as many as a hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand Japanese troops died. Burmese people fought on both sides.

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Speaker 1: A son, Ang San Suki's father demanded that Britain granted

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Speaker 1: him and his fellow Burmese people independence if they fought

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Speaker 1: for the Allies. The British refused. A Son then went

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Speaker 1: first to China and eventually Japan for support, and eventually

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Speaker 1: he fought against the British with his Burmer Independence Army.

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Speaker 1: But after two years of occupation, a signed his comrades

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Speaker 1: changed sides under a broad alliance called the Anti Fascist Organization.

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Speaker 1: They turned on the Japanese and they once again to

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Speaker 1: gup arms to liberate their country. On the fourth of January,

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Speaker 1: Burma became an independent republic. The new republic's territory combined

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Speaker 1: three British territories and over a hundred distinct ethnic groups.

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Speaker 1: For the next fourteen years, these groups struggled to find

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Speaker 1: a democratic Burma and an identity for themselves within it.

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Speaker 1: Mostly they failed. The period was characterized by the Chinese

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Speaker 1: Civil War, spilling it to Burma, ethnic arm insurgencies and

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Speaker 1: repeated demands for a federal republic with a weak central

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Speaker 1: government in the military. A rate at new demands for

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Speaker 1: a federal republic stage to coup. Burma spent the next

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Speaker 1: twenty two years under the military rule of a council,

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Speaker 1: pursuing what they called the Burmese Way to socialism. Burma's

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Speaker 1: planned economy left it largely isolated from the rest of

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Speaker 1: the world. Home the press was censored, and a type

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Speaker 1: of nationalism that combined nominal socialism and Burman ethnic identity

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Speaker 1: became the official state ideology. During this period, Burma became

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Speaker 1: one of the world's poorest countries. Sporadic protests were met

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Speaker 1: with overwhelming force, and the eighth of August and uprising began.

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Speaker 1: It started among his students in Yangon, but it took

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Speaker 1: real quickly around the country. The so called eight Uprising

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Speaker 1: because of the date, began with the general strike and

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Speaker 1: huge nor violent protests. These were met with gunfire. Protesters

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Speaker 1: fought back with Molotov cocktails and rocks. The military fired

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Speaker 1: into hospitals, and by September eighteen they launched a coup

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Speaker 1: to take the country from a one party state back

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Speaker 1: to a military dictatorship. It was during these protests on

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Speaker 1: San Suki, the daughter of independence hero On Son, emerged

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Speaker 1: as a national figurehead, especially in the west. Amatov g

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Speaker 1: the Indian writer, wrote the following about eight across Burma,

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Speaker 1: people poured out in thousands to join in the protests,

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Speaker 1: not just students but also teaches, monks, children, professionals, and

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Speaker 1: trade unionists of every shape. It was on this day, too,

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Speaker 1: that the Hunter made its first determined attempt at repression.

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Speaker 1: Soldiers opened fire on the demonstrators and hundreds of unarmed

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Speaker 1: marches were killed. The killings continued for a week, but

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Speaker 1: still the demonstrators continued to flood the streets. After the

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Speaker 1: uprising had been suppressed, multi party elections were later held,

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Speaker 1: while the new National League for Democracy party of Ansan

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Speaker 1: Suki won the most votes, the Hunter refused to seed power.

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Speaker 1: Protests continued off and on for decades, with the two

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Speaker 1: thousand seven Saffron Revolution, which the government violently cracked down

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Speaker 1: on monks, resulting in the most international condemnation. Following the

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Speaker 1: Saffron Revolution, the government's isolationism hindering aid After extensive cyclone damage.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and eight, the military government finally implemented

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Speaker 1: the roadmap to discipline flourishing democracy that had developed in

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Speaker 1: If you're wondering about the aim of the country, it's

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Speaker 1: officially changed in as well, but like much of the

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Speaker 1: nation's history, a grand proclamation from the government didn't mean

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Speaker 1: much on the ground. Both words derived from Barana, a

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Speaker 1: name that the majority ethnic group who we're calling Burman

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Speaker 1: here he used for themselves. Many opposition groups still use

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Speaker 1: Burma instead of Myanma. It's another small way of saying

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Speaker 1: no to the military's attempt to control every aspect of

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Speaker 1: their lives. Finally, on the eighth of September, the army

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Speaker 1: took to the streets and the coup, led by their

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Speaker 1: Chief of Staff, General Sormon. The next day the killings

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Speaker 1: began again. Yeah. The army later described these people as looters. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It was not until two thousand eleven that the military

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Speaker 1: junta finally stepped down and passed on power to the Union,

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Speaker 1: Solidarity and Development Party in an election that was widely

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Speaker 1: seen as fraudulent. A year later on San su Chi

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Speaker 1: was released, and by two thousand fifteen her National League

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Speaker 1: for Democracy won an absolute majority. While she was barred

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Speaker 1: from holding the presidential office, she took on the role

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Speaker 1: of State counselor, and Myanmar entered a period of liberalization, which,

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Speaker 1: although never the federal democracy promised when the country gained

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Speaker 1: its independence in nineteen forty seven, allowed for significant freedoms

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Speaker 1: of communication and speech, especially for the Burman majority ethnic group.

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Speaker 1: Not everyone was reconciled to the change. Many of Myanmar's

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Speaker 1: A hundred and thirty five ethnic groups feel marginalized by

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Speaker 1: the state, which tends to be dominated by the Burman ethnicity.

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Speaker 1: Some of these groups have armed in surgeon wings, often

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Speaker 1: more than one per ethnic group, as they disagree on

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Speaker 1: politics or religion. These groups have fought various Burmese governments

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Speaker 1: since the nineteen forties, but many of them reached to

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Speaker 1: cease fire with the government as the country passed from

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Speaker 1: military to civilian rule. One group, however, saw a huge

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Speaker 1: uptick in violence. The Rohinga ethnic group have been persecuted

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Speaker 1: by Buddhist nationals since the nineteen seventies, but the campaign

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Speaker 1: against them increased in violence and scale in two thousand sixteen,

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Speaker 1: when the Totma Daw began a huge crackdown against Rohinga

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Speaker 1: people in Rakin State. The persecution began in response to

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Speaker 1: attacks by the Arkan Rohinga Salvation Army on Burmese border outposts,

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Speaker 1: but the campaign that followed had nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: the small insurgent group and a lot to do with

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Speaker 1: the desire of the Totma Daw to destroy or drive

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Speaker 1: out all Rohinga people who they claim are undocumented migrants

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Speaker 1: from Bangladesh and not citizens of Myanmar. While the world

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Speaker 1: praised Suki, her government looked the other way as the

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Speaker 1: military carried out a genocide that displaced over a million

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Speaker 1: people and killed tens of thousands. It was in the

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Speaker 1: context of growing international condemnation of the genocide that Myanmar

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Speaker 1: went to the polls in November of The November twenty

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Speaker 1: election was only the nation's second since the official end

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Speaker 1: of military rule. On San Suchi's National League for Democracy

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Speaker 1: won a resounding victory. The military backed Union, Solidarity and

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Speaker 1: Development Party holds twenty five percent of seats under a

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Speaker 1: constitution that Suchi wanted to change. It didn't take defeat well.

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Speaker 1: The election was neither perfectly free nor fair. The Rhinga

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Speaker 1: have been almost wholly disenfranchised. The government claims they are

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Speaker 1: illegal immigrants from Bangladesh and thus unable to vote. Areas

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Speaker 1: with ethnic armed organizations which opposed the government often had

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Speaker 1: poles canceled and internet cut off. According to Human Rights Watch,

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Speaker 1: The Carter Center estimates that one point four million citizens

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Speaker 1: couldn't vote. The one opposition party that was certainly not

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Speaker 1: short changed was the militaries However, it was the Union

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Speaker 1: Solidarity and Development Party USDP which had been calling for

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Speaker 1: election delays due to COVID before polls opened. Once the

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Speaker 1: before the newly elected legislators were due to be sworn in.

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Speaker 1: The world largely ignored the situation, apart from the one

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Speaker 1: viral video where a masked fitness instructor dances in the

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Speaker 1: foreground as a PC's roll through a roadblock and into

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Speaker 1: the parliament complex behind her. On Sang Suchi was arrested,

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Speaker 1: charged with breaching COVID nineteen restrictions and illegally importing a

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Speaker 1: walkie talkie, and General min On Lang was installed at

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Speaker 1: the head of a military junta. If this sounds a

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Speaker 1: little like a stop the Steel fantasy, that's because it

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Speaker 1: is eerily similar to one. Myanmar's democracy is not what

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Speaker 1: academics call a consolidated one, which is to say that

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Speaker 1: democracy has never been the only game in town there,

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Speaker 1: but the United States seems to be rapidly deconsolidating its

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Speaker 1: own democracy. The allegations of election fraud and Meanmar were

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Speaker 1: no more credible than those in Arizona. However, the military's

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Speaker 1: tradition of political engagement there removed many of the barriers

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Speaker 1: in between electoral defeat and the death of a lived democracy.

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Speaker 1: Within twenty four hours of the coup, the people of

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Speaker 1: Myanmar had fought back. Healthcare workers and civil servants were

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Speaker 1: on strike by February third, and a boycott of junta

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Speaker 1: owned businesses had begun. Protests began with a handful of people.

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Speaker 1: The memories of massacres of pro democracy protesters in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighties kept many away, but a younger generation who

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Speaker 1: had grown up with relative liberty, internet access and basic freedoms,

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Speaker 1: had not seen blood in the streets like their parents.

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Speaker 1: They had seen activists in Hong Kong, the USA, and

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Speaker 1: Ukraine take on violent state apparatuses, and they had often

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Speaker 1: seen them win. By the six of February, twenty thousand

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Speaker 1: people in the streets of Yangon, the largest city, and

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Speaker 1: the internet was shut down. Nationwide. Protests began peacefully, with

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Speaker 1: memorable signs like my eggs is bad, but the miniitary

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Speaker 1: is worse, and we are protesting peacefully, but with the

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Speaker 1: W a P capitalized, so it said whack. These signs

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Speaker 1: were designed by generation of kids who grew up with

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Speaker 1: access to the Internet to attract international attention. Despite the ban,

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Speaker 1: they used vpn s to shore him due to their struggle.

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Speaker 1: Once sound read you've messed with the wrong generation. Now

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Speaker 1: will never be allowed to ruin our own lives, the

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Speaker 1: tapped the door showed its cards pretty quickly, police began

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Speaker 1: a suppression with sling shots and clubs, then tear gas

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Speaker 1: and flash brag, and quickly they moved to rifles and

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Speaker 1: rocket papel grenades. By the ninth of February, myth Way Way,

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Speaker 1: a twenty year old woman had been shot in the street.

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Speaker 1: Soon those young protesters have switched signs for shields. By

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Speaker 1: the mid march. On m forty His day, a hundred

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Speaker 1: and fourteen civilians were killed in a single day, including

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Speaker 1: sixty five in Yangon who were kettled by police, surrounded

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Speaker 1: and then shot quickly. Shield walls were set up, Medics

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Speaker 1: identified themselves in the protest movement, and hard hats and

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Speaker 1: goggles were distributed, but this didn't tip the balance of

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Speaker 1: power in their favor, so all in a former student

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Speaker 1: union leader was there from the start. In the text message,

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Speaker 1: he told me I did not miss a single day

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Speaker 1: as a member of the KaiA State National Strike Committee.

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Speaker 1: I later became more involved in anti authoritarian protests. In

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Speaker 1: the early protests, you see him in photos walking in

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Speaker 1: the front of the group carrying flags and banners with

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Speaker 1: his student I D card on a lanyard around his neck.

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Speaker 1: But by March he's wearing a black shirt, goggles and

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Speaker 1: a hard construction hat. Meanwhile, the National League for Democracy

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Speaker 1: politicians who had escaped to tension joined other parties and

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Speaker 1: set up a National Unity Government in April. The National

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Speaker 1: Unity Government contained members of the National League for Democracy,

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Speaker 1: but significantly or hinder activists was appointed and advisory the

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Speaker 1: Ministry of Human Rights and the National Unity Government has

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Speaker 1: announced it would for the first time accept the jurisdiction

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Speaker 1: of the International Criminal Court with respect to all international

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Speaker 1: crimes committed in Myanmar since two thousand and two. This

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Speaker 1: would include the Ring genocide. By May, both the National

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Speaker 1: Unity Government and so well In had realized that no

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Speaker 1: amount of non violent protests was going through this large

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Speaker 1: regime that was happy to gun down kids in the street.

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Speaker 1: So on the fifth of May, he left for the jungle.

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Speaker 1: That same day, the National Unity government announced the formation

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Speaker 1: of the People's Defense Force or PDF. Within a month,

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Speaker 1: eight hundred soldiers had affected to these pro democracy guerilla units.

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Speaker 1: Many put their guns with them, but what didn't join

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Speaker 1: the PDF. Instead, he joined one of me and MARS.

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Speaker 1: Any ethnic armed organizations groups opposed to a central state

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Speaker 1: and its domination by the Burman ethnicity. To understand these groups,

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Speaker 1: you need to understand that my m R is composed

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Speaker 1: of dozens, not hundreds, of ethnic groups, but that the Burman,

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Speaker 1: who make up about two thirds of the population, have

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Speaker 1: always controlled the state and used it as a tool

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Speaker 1: in furthering their interest. Some of these groups, like the

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Speaker 1: current National Liberation Army and the Kachin Independence Army, have

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Speaker 1: been fighting for decades since the country emerged from British

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Speaker 1: colonial rule at the end of World War Two. All

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Speaker 1: of these groups drown a combination of ethnic and political grievances.

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Speaker 1: Many of them administer semi autonomous territories like the current state.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand thirteen, thirteen ethnic armed Organizations or e

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Speaker 1: a o s came together to form the Nationwide Ceasefire

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Speaker 1: Coordinating Team in c CT and signed an eleven point

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Speaker 1: Common Position of Ethnic Resistance Organizations on national Ceasefire or

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Speaker 1: the Lisa Agreement. Most of them seem to agree that

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Speaker 1: they would accept a federal system rather than complete autonomy.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand fifteen, a ceasefire was signed, but conflict

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Speaker 1: between ethnic armed organizations and between e a o's and

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Speaker 1: the government continued. Since the coup began, EO membership has skyrocketed,

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Speaker 1: and in October, the National Unity government announced alliances with

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Speaker 1: several groups under a central chain of command. Some political

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Speaker 1: organizations who played a part in the nineteen eighty eight uprising,

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Speaker 1: like the All Burma Students Democratic Front, have been revived

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Speaker 1: as armed groups. The A B s DF recently attacked

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Speaker 1: Tatmadach ships using an RPG. Attacks on military basis have

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Speaker 1: also stepped up. PDF units have ambushed and killed policemen

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Speaker 1: and raided police and military outposts. Each time they do,

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Speaker 1: they steal valuable weapons and ammunition. The Tatmadau has responded

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Speaker 1: with shellings and air strikes against residential areas, executions, mass

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Speaker 1: physical retribution, and the murdering of civilians and aid workers

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Speaker 1: and burning of their bodies. As a result of all

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Speaker 1: this ethnic armed organizations have joined forces with anti authoritarian

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Speaker 1: Roman people under the auspices of the People's Defense Forces,

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Speaker 1: which are under the command of the exiled National Unity Government.

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Speaker 1: We have never experienced such kind of brutalities from the

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Speaker 1: military as well as a strong resistance from the people.

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Speaker 1: They try to make sure the whole country submit to them,

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Speaker 1: but we still refuse to allow them to be our rulers.

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Speaker 1: This defiance has led to the formation of the People's

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Speaker 1: Defense Forces or PDF, a coalition of thousands of resistance

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Speaker 1: fighters were carrying out surprise attacks on Hunter checkpoints, bombing

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Speaker 1: army convoys, and supporting ethnic armies in their fight against

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Speaker 1: the regime. Twelve months ago, these men and women were

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Speaker 1: students and office workers protesting the coup. Today they're training

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Speaker 1: to overthrow the military. Bennesota is the tough choice, but

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Speaker 1: the young people um they are ready to defend the community.

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Speaker 1: They have to, of course, sacrifice their own daily life

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Speaker 1: ordinary life. Since March of the influx of new recruits

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Speaker 1: has changed these groups. Generation Z militias like the Karinni

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Speaker 1: gen Z Liberation Army have sprung up, founded by kids

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Speaker 1: who were holding memable signs at protests just a few

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Speaker 1: months earlier. They care less about ethnic independence and more

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Speaker 1: about beating the junta. Many Burman kids join these groups.

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Speaker 1: These organizations of young fighters received training from the experienced

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Speaker 1: guerillas hiding in the jungle, but they tended to adopt

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Speaker 1: a less top down military structure and armed themselves by

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Speaker 1: scavenging whatever weapons they could find, often twenty two caliber

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Speaker 1: rifles better suited to shooting squirrels than soldiers. It was

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Speaker 1: these kids who grew up online and knew that there

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Speaker 1: was nothing you couldn't learn about on Reddit, who tipped

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Speaker 1: the balance of force away from the state. Unlike the

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Speaker 1: ethnic armed organizations and other more experienced guerrillas in Myanmar,

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Speaker 1: these kids have little military experience. Their organizations have few

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Speaker 1: rules and regulations. They're made up entirely of young people.

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Speaker 1: As a result, there are certain things that they're less

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Speaker 1: proficient at, but they're much better at things like grasping

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Speaker 1: the use of new technologies, which has led to me

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Speaker 1: Amar being the first country in the world where three

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Speaker 1: D printed weapons have taken part in a revolution against

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Speaker 1: the government. We're going to hear more about that and

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Speaker 1: many other things as this series continues. Hey there, I'm

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Speaker 1: Jess Milady Confetti here. Hi, I'm Psyche and I am

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Speaker 1: hey Shady lady, and welcome to Boss Level podcast, where

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Speaker 1: we feature conversations with gas Tube leveled up bringing an

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Speaker 1: X feed riost to the table. That was always my response,

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Speaker 1: because is like, I am like a unicorn here right like,

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Speaker 1: because there's not allowed of like out of the closet

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Speaker 1: female gamers. I know a lot of them. Like it

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00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 1: was like a battlefield. They're like, this is our cool

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00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 1: boys club and be here. No. Sorry, Hey, this is

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Speaker 1: a very dark corner and I'm a lot of light

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Speaker 1: and right quarter. We picked the brains of professionals, creators

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Speaker 1: and bosses and industries across the globe to help our

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Speaker 1: listeners achieve their own boss level. We are not just

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Speaker 1: creating a podcast, but a gamified an engaged community. Listen

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Speaker 1: to Boss Level on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Katy Lows.

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Speaker 1: You might also know me as Quinn Perkins from Scandal

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Speaker 1: for Rachel from Inventing Anna. I'm also a mother to

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Speaker 1: my son Albi and my daughter Vera. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: create a space for open and honest conversations about all

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Speaker 1: things parenting, and I thought a podcast was the best

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00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: way to do just that. Check out season five of

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Speaker 1: my podcast, Katie's Crib. It is super raw, vulnerable, and hilarious.

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Speaker 1: Katie's Crib in no way shape form is judgmental or

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Speaker 1: telling you exactly how to parent or exactly how you

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00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: should be. I think it really just makes you feel

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Speaker 1: less alone and gives you a community. We're going deep

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Speaker 1: with guests like inventing Anna's Anna club Ski, how to

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Speaker 1: Get Away with Murders, Asian Naomi King, and Yes, sometimes

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00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 1: my funality when he burst into my studio, so that's cool.

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Speaker 1: Listen to Katie's Crab every Thursday on the I Heart Radio, app,

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Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the

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00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 1: Art of Accomplishment podcast. We love anxiety, anger, sadness, and selfishness.

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00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: Most people do everything they can to get rid of

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00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 1: these emotions, but nothing makes them go away. We, however,

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00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 1: welcome them because they give us a healthy advantage if

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00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 1: we know how to interpret their signals. Listen to the

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00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: Art of Accomplishment podcast on the Heart Radio, Apple, Apple Podcasts,

407
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. To understand yourself and

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00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 1: be who you were meant to be. Hey, everybody, I'm

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Speaker 1: Robert Evans and this is me and mar printing The

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Speaker 1: Revolution Part two. Since the dawn of firearms, regular people

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Speaker 1: all over the world have had the same basic idea,

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Speaker 1: Maybe if I made myself a gun, the government wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be able to be such a dick to me. Historically,

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Speaker 1: this has had little impact on the willingness of governments

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Speaker 1: to be dicks to people. In the beginning, all gun

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Speaker 1: manufacturing was done by individual artisans, and thus making a

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Speaker 1: gun in your home was really no different from making

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Speaker 1: it in a shop, as long as you had the

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Speaker 1: proper tools. Guns in this period weren't super useful on

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Speaker 1: their own, and we're best fired in a volley by

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Speaker 1: a shipload of dudes at once. Since individual firearms were

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Speaker 1: extremely inaccurate and cumbersome to use, the fact that some

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Speaker 1: poor blacksmith could make himself one wasn't much of a

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Speaker 1: threat to anybody in power. It did mean that battlefield

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Speaker 1: prowess came from large blocks of trained soldiers, not fudel

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Speaker 1: lords on horseback rallying untrained peasants. This change in technology

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Speaker 1: led to a change in warfare and helped to change society.

428
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: As firearms evolved and became these central weapons of battle,

429
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: they required more intense tooling and more expensive manufacturing capacity.

430
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: Nations and peoples without the know how or infrastructure were

431
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: at a tremendous disadvantage. As soon as this situation came

432
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: into being, these unfortunate communities set to work finding ways

433
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: to gain the advantages of firearms without the manufacturing capacity

434
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: their foes enjoyed. Indigenous cannons and regions resisting imperialism often

435
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: consisted of composite materials less sturdy than bronze or iron.

436
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: In the sixteen hundreds and seventeen hundreds, Indigenous Americans in

437
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: South America used wooden cannons to fight against Spanish and

438
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: Portuguese conquerors. The Vietnamese used wooden cannons to resist the

439
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 1: French during the Coach in Chaia, a campaign of eighteen

440
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 1: sixty two. American Indians used wooden artillery to blast settler

441
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 1: fortifications in the seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds. In the

442
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 1: months that led up to the outbreak of the Revolutionary War,

443
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: the men who fought to create the United States busied

444
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 1: themselves building rifles and cannons in their homes and communities

445
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: to resist the English. This trend has never really stopped

446
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: in warfare. The day before we recorded this, James, my

447
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,239
Speaker 1: partner in this series, sent me a screen grab from

448
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: a live stream of someone in Ukraine printing pieces for

449
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: a K forty seven's on a three D printer. Firearms

450
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: manufactured outside the arms industry have played a role in

451
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,719
Speaker 1: every conflict of the modern era, but as you've probably guessed,

452
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: they have had the greatest influence in the little wars

453
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: of colonialism. European nations rarely allowed any sort of firearms

454
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: ownership in their colonies except the individuals and ethnic groups

455
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 1: that adopted its local enforces. Since most of these places

456
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: had never developed their own industrial base for arms industry,

457
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: colonial rebellions often relied on home made weapons in their

458
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,360
Speaker 1: early stages, along with modern firearms pilfered by deserting local soldiers.

459
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 1: Where domestic productive capacity existed, European colonizing nations went out

460
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 1: of their way to relocate it, along with the profit

461
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: it generated, to the metropol All were reflected on this

462
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,479
Speaker 1: in his novel Burmese Days, saying in the eighteenth century,

463
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: the Indians cast guns are at any rate up to

464
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: the European standard. Now, after we've been in India a

465
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty years, you can't make so much as

466
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: a brass cartridge case in the whole continent. Meanwhile, among

467
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: the colonizers, being armed became almost a synonym for being

468
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: a man. This was particularly true for the colonial police

469
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: forces and militaries, but it was also true domestically. Most

470
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: people are broadly familiar with the US Second Amendment the

471
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: robust gun culture that it spawned, but during the higher colonialism,

472
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: English citizens are also free to earn themselves. In Prime

473
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: Minister Robert gascoyne cecil Marquis of Salisbury, gave a speech

474
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: in which he claimed he would laud the day when

475
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: there was a rifle in every cottage. In England, firearms

476
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: were utterly unrestricted at this point. The first chaine to

477
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: this came in with the first Law that required a

478
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: permit to carry a handgun and restricted children from buying guns. Still,

479
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: firearms were widely available until a red panic gripped the

480
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: nation in following the ball strict revolution in Russia. Across

481
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: the ocean in Spain, where firearms ownership was less strictly

482
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: restricted where all well himself would learn what it was

483
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: to fire a rifle at someone who shot back. Arm

484
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: Unions and working people served as the only bullwalk to

485
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: a military coup. In ninety six in Madrid, one officer

486
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: opened his armory to the union militias, but another refused

487
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: to hand over for the bolts for the guns they

488
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: had been issued. The Barcelona, where the anarchists left, had

489
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: a long tradition evample at violence. The coup was repelled

490
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: by workers with guns, and the general leading troops there

491
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: was imprisoned and executed. The same pattern played out all

492
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: across the country in July, when the military rose up

493
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: to topple the elected government. In the cities where the

494
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: government opened the armories to the people, the coup was repelled.

495
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: In the cities where the government did not, the coup succeeded.

496
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: Reflecting on this in nine or WORLDWARID, the totalitarian states

497
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: can do great things, but there is one thing they

498
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: cannot do. They cannot give the factory worker a rifle

499
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: and tell him to take it home and keep it

500
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: in his bedroom. That rifle on the wall of the

501
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: laborers cottage or working class flat. It's a symbol of democracy.

502
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: It's a job to see that it's days there, despite

503
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: Orwell's please. The years that followed the Second World War

504
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: led the greater restrictions of the ability of the public

505
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: to arm itself. By the nineteen fifties, carrying any weapon

506
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: for self defense was illegal. Semi automatic center fire arms

507
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: were banned in nineteen eighty eight, and pistols were banned

508
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety six after a mass shooting killed sixteen

509
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: children in Dunblane. This was all utterly infuriating to a

510
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: man named Philip A. Looty. Loody, born in nineteen sixty

511
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: five grew up on a farm in West Yorkshire, England.

512
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: We don't have a tremendous amount of detail about his upbringing,

513
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: but by the time he was in his early thirties

514
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: he'd become a committed crusader for an unrestricted right to

515
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: bear arms. A skilled machinist with a well equipped shop,

516
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: Loody began the long process of learning how to craft

517
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: homemade firearms. Soon he was building semi and fully automatic weapons.

518
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: Now these were not military grade firearms. The barrels were unrifled,

519
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: which made them terribly inaccurate, but every piece could be

520
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: crafted from widely available things like sheet metal washers and screws.

521
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: The person assembling a looty gun would need to be

522
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: a skilled craftsman, but they would not need access to

523
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: welding rig forges or rather expensive industrial equipment. Booty published

524
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: a book Expedient Homemade Firearms the nine millimeter Submachine Gun

525
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight through Paladin Press. In the late

526
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, Paladin was one of the places you could

527
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: go to mail order fringe political literature and guides for

528
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: stuff like trapping human beings or disabling the drive system

529
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: of an Abrams tank in the United States. Nothing about

530
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: Ludy's book was or is illegal, but Phil didn't live

531
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: in the United States. He was arrested several times, starting

532
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: in the late nineteen nineties when a pair of illegal

533
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: home built guns were found on his property. Ludy spent

534
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: the rest of his life, which ended in two thousand eleven,

535
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: operating a website where he raged against gun control. His

536
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: main argument was that England was headed for totalitarianism, and

537
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: like Orwell, he believed only public ownership of arms could

538
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: prevent this. Unlike Orwell, Ludy was firmly on the right

539
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: wing He traced society's problems to quote a combination of

540
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,479
Speaker 1: political ractness and anti freedom of speech laws legislation governing

541
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: how we speak about such subjects as religion or a

542
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: person's race being just two examples. Words and phrases that

543
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: have been used for centuries without malice are now insipid

544
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: in people's mouths and said to cause offense by those

545
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: very same speech police, who, on the other hand, turned

546
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: a blind eye to the violence, foul language, and sexual

547
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: references blasted daily through our TV sets, a phenomenon that

548
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: really does cause offense to many people. Loody never succeeded

549
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: in sparking a renaissance in civilian arms ownership in the UK,

550
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: but his ideas were adopted by organized criminal groups all

551
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: around the world. In Brazil, looty guns can go for

552
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: as much as twenty five hundred dollars. From two thousand

553
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: eleven to two thousand twelve, nearly half of the submachine

554
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: guns seized by police and salpolo were homemade. Most of

555
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: these arms were certainly used as tools by drug dealers

556
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: or other gangsters, but some of them were surely also

557
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: the tools of citizens who simply sought a way to

558
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: defend themselves in a place with no real rule of law.

559
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: Looty guns have long been popular among motorcycle gangs in Australia,

560
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: and in October of two thousand nineteen, a fascist terrorist

561
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: carried out the last of that year's eight Chan shootings

562
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: in Halla, Germany with a looty gun. His weapons, thankfully

563
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 1: did not work well. As a general rule, looty guns

564
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: were never going to be of much use to anyone

565
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: besides organized criminals. They aren't great in a gunfight, but

566
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: you can use them to spray bullets into a room

567
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: or a vehicle at close range pretty well. The year

568
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: after Phil Looty died two thousand twelve, a fellow named

569
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 1: Cody Wilson decided to carry on his work. Cody felt

570
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: three D printing carried the possibility of eventually manufacturing arms

571
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: of equality that might rival traditionally produced guns. He started

572
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: simple with a single shot three eighty handgun based around

573
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: the old Liberator pistol from World War Two. The Liberator

574
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 1: had been a single shot forty five caliber handgun meant

575
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: to be dropped into Nazi occupied territories, used by insurgents

576
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: to stealthily kill single German soldiers and take their guns.

577
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 1: Cody Wilson described himself as a crypto anarchist, and when

578
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: his ideas began to draw attention, he dropped out of

579
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: law school to create Defense Distributed. This organization was dedicated

580
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 1: to the development and distribution of plans to craft three

581
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: D printed weapons. It used a platform called deaf CAD

582
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 1: to allow users to develop and share blueprints. In two

583
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 1: thousand and thirteen, the first CAD gun file became available

584
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: online to everyone. It was downloaded more than a hundred

585
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: thousand times in two days. I'd like to quote now

586
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: from an article on the website three D Natives. This

587
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: prompted the US government to demand that Defense Distributed removed

588
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: the file from their site. What followed as a legal

589
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 1: battle between Cody Wilson and the U. S Government, consisting

590
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: of back and forth lawsuits. It lasted five years until

591
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: in two thousand eighteen, the Trump administration legalized three D

592
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,720
Speaker 1: printed guns. The same year, Wilson was charged with sexual

593
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: assault of an underage girl and had to step down

594
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 1: from Defense Distributed. Nonetheless, the organization did not cease to

595
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 1: exist without Cody. Today, for a yearly fee of fifty dollars,

596
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 1: users of the Deaf CAD website can access the files

597
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: containing different designs of three D printed guns. And I

598
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: should note here that it's probably more accurate to say

599
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: the Trump administration legalized sharing the plans and printing the

600
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: files and whatnot of three D printed guns, not legalized

601
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 1: three D printed guns. Homemade firearms have been federally legal

602
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: in the United States since forever. The fighting in the

603
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: courts over all this has continued ever since, and in

604
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen a federal judge and Seattle temporarily blocked DEAFCAD.

605
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: This sparked the creation of a new group, Deterrence Dispensed,

606
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 1: which was even less centralized. The basic idea was that

607
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,280
Speaker 1: this would make them harder to take down via lawsuits

608
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 1: or police action. Not stated was that this might also

609
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: protect their reputation from a Cody Wilson situation. The debate

610
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 1: over the legality of three D printed firearm plans continues

611
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: on to the present day, but the development of these

612
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 1: arms has continued at an ever faster pace. The best

613
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: modern three D printed arms can even rival inventional guns.

614
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 1: It's worth emphasizing that these are not purely plastic tools.

615
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,479
Speaker 1: The Liberator pistol used a metal nail, and the better

616
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: three D arms have metal barrels rifled using other craft

617
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: methods that require some nohow but arguably less than it

618
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: took to manufacture a looty gun. Three D printed arms

619
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: have been confiscated by police around the world, but in

620
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: recent months they've begun to crop up somewhere new in

621
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: the arms of revolutionaries fighting against a military coup. Me

622
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 1: and Ma Burman before that has adversively strict gun control

623
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 1: laws for decades. When Georgie Orwell was a policeman there

624
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,399
Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties, he may have carried a gun,

625
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: but the people he was policing did not. In the

626
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, the British leaders allowed tact organizations similar to

627
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: militias to form and drill, but they weren't allowed to

628
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 1: carry guns. Gun licenses under the dictatorship were issued primarily

629
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: to party members, but most revoked after failed pro Democian uprising.

630
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: The only civilians who were permitted to earn armed with

631
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: the Chin, the nation's poorest ethnic group, who rely on

632
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: guns to hunt for food. In many cases, these guns

633
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 1: were flint locks that would not have looked that out

634
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: of place in a battlefield two centuries before. In practice, though,

635
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: things are very different. The current conflict is best seen

636
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: as a flare up in violence has been ongoing since

637
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: Britain left the country in the Tapma door has consistently

638
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: used violence against marginalized ethnic groups in the country, and

639
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: they have consistently taken up arms in response. But unlike

640
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: civil wars in the Middle East, wealthy nations in the

641
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: West have not been flooding Meanmar with weapons for decades,

642
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: and the various E a O S or ethnic armed

643
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,919
Speaker 1: organizations have had to turn to much more unorthodox routes

644
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: to arm and equip themselves against the government. To get

645
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: a better idea of what things are like on the ground,

646
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: we spoke to Pierre. He's French, but he's a serial

647
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: volunteer with national liberation struggles around the world and fought

648
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: with the people in the early two thousand's. Yes, so

649
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 1: the ammunition is a constant problem. The shortage is absolutely permanent.

650
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 1: And yes there is two sources and for the for

651
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: the for the weapons, there is the black market, and

652
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: the prices, especially of ammunition, are prohibitive. This is why

653
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: I would like to have my notebook here with me

654
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: because I think I wrote down the conversation I had

655
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 1: with some leaders of the kind of at the time

656
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: asking them why we didn't do more persons. Well, like,

657
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: we just can't afford it, uh, you know, uh, we

658
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: just can't afford it. Like strictly we we don't we

659
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: we don't have enough ammunition to do any kind of

660
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 1: uh of operation we need to. So all the operations

661
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: with you were always focused on if we could capture

662
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:11,399
Speaker 1: some ammunition, if we could geture like weapons, but especially immunition. Yeah,

663
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 1: so there is you know, that's that's the second source

664
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: of of course of uh of weapon. Uh let's say

665
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: source is the is the captures of course, then the

666
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: black market. The black market used to be huge in Cambodia.

667
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: I don't know what's the situation now. That was in

668
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: the nineties. There was it was a bit of the

669
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: Albania of some STEA at this time, right, And so

670
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: there is also the other ethnic groups that received sometime

671
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: say a lot of uh of of arms and ammunition

672
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: from sponsor of STU. Some of them, like the West

673
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: the dummies are sponsored by China. So like their supply

674
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: of munition, it's pretty good of of weapons. I think

675
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 1: it's even cartigo and stuff. Um. Then there is other

676
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: groups that also produced locally quite good their own on arms,

677
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: light arms usually so yeah, these are the different sources

678
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: of welcomes the okay in in the time I was

679
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 1: there in the early weeks of the protests. Once you

680
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: a claim clear that non violent demonstrators were going to

681
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: be met with state violence, protests began to fashion weapons. First,

682
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: they thought soldiers with the salt rifles, using catapults and

683
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 1: bos and arrows. It was incredibly brave, but it wasn't

684
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: very effective by the twenty eight so much protesters are

685
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: taken a step first, a group calling itself the Calais

686
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: Civil Army set up barricades and defended them using pressurized

687
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 1: air rifles that fired marbles and bicycle wheelbearings. The rifles

688
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: all used the same design and the same components. They

689
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: were based on a video someone found on YouTube, but

690
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: they weren't lethal. They helped protesters defend their space, albeit

691
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: at great cost. In that first clash, four protesters and

692
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: four soldiers were killed. The protesters and Calais were able

693
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: to hold out a few days using old hunting rifles

694
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: and air guns. The ambush military patrols and they took

695
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,839
Speaker 1: four police hostage. Then they exchanged them for nine incarcerated protesters.

696
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: But nearly April, the Tapmador returned to the protest camp

697
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: in Calais with rocket propelled grenades and machine guns and

698
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: killed eleven people. We must fight back against them. If not,

699
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: our generation will face a worse situation than us. They

700
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: have no laws, a neighborhood villager who battled the regime's

701
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,439
Speaker 1: forces told the Irrawaddy, a local paper. The air guns

702
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,919
Speaker 1: spread around the country quickly to avoid surveillance. Protesters talked

703
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: about cooking up yanny on telegram channels, and what they

704
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: meant was desperately scaring the internet for a way to

705
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: fight back and finding a way to make an air

706
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: rifle out of a beautane canister, a pipe and a

707
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: cigarette lighter, combined with fireworks and smoke bombs made of

708
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: potassium nitrate. The air rifle gave protest is just enough

709
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: cupboard to escape police charges, but they also gave the

710
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: hunter an excuse to further escalate the violence. Attitudes are

711
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: hardening among the protesters too. In Mandalay, they took air

712
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 1: rifles to the barricades on Saturday, hardly a match for

713
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 1: the weapons of war they face, but now they know

714
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: this is a fight to the death and more destruction.

715
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,879
Speaker 1: After a fire raged and Pgdalgon Township Overnight, people living

716
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: there but kept away by security forces were turned to

717
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: find sixty homes burned to the ground. Now all they

718
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: can do is pick through the ashes, trying to save

719
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 1: anything from the military's policy of scorched Even the Tatmadaw

720
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: makes its own weapons, a highly unusual move for a

721
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: relatively small nation. Totmadaw troops and police can be seen

722
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: with a bewildering array of indigenously produced copies of HIM

723
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,280
Speaker 1: sixteen s ouzies and even five five six Galil pattern

724
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: A K style rifles, as well as in three light

725
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: machine guns, which are slightly updated copies of the MG

726
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: forty two used by the Nazis in World War Two.

727
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: After the failed eight eight eight eight uprisings in Night,

728
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 1: the military offered concessions to China and return for more

729
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 1: advanced weapons. They got them, but it didn't stop China

730
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 1: from also supplying Ethnic armed organizations e a o s

731
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 1: don't have access to the same munitions factories that the

732
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: government does, but there is a long tradition of homemade

733
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: weapons in Myanmar. In more remote parts of the country,

734
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: homemade air rifles and shotguns seem to have been relative

735
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: commonplace before the start of the conflict, and they were

736
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: mostly used for hunting. The country has also covered with

737
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 1: land mines, which the E. A O S used a

738
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: great effect against the Totmadaw. We spoke to Pierre, a

739
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: former combatant with the Karin who no longer lives in Myanmar.

740
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: His experience is not that recent, but it helps us

741
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 1: to understand the way this conflict has been fought for decades.

742
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 1: What we used to produce A lot of land mines,

743
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: that's uh, that's produced at the base. Yes, with like

744
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: you know, very very lot of systems with a little

745
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: bit of of type of plastic explosive pt of bomboom

746
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: for contactors and like your batfield. That's it. Pellet guns

747
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 1: are not good for combat and E A O S

748
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: mostly relied on weapons imported from Thailand, India or China.

749
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: Overwhelmingly these were A K or In sixteen pattern rifles. Yeah,

750
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: mostly in my and the units have been there is

751
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: probably a majority of a K platforms in this time. Yes, yeah, definitely,

752
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 1: I mean it's more reliable and you know, simple to operate.

753
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: It's very adapted to the to the to the type

754
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 1: of it was. It was quite correct. I mean I

755
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: swee from the moment that I switched to a case

756
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: at least because at TOST I tried to use this

757
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: scurperency M. Sixteen and it was a nightmare of malfunctions.

758
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: So I switched back to a case, which is what

759
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 1: you best know and used or my idea doesn't have this.

760
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: I never really had any any malfunction with the case.

761
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 1: Maybe one time. It's a faulty lot of communition. But

762
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: let's see, not the rifles. The fight, Pierre says, has

763
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,760
Speaker 1: never been restricted to the battlefield for the top medal

764
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,240
Speaker 1: violence against civilians as part of their four cuts doctrine

765
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 1: that cuts off funding, food, intelligence, and recruits for the

766
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: e a O. S now they are moving that same

767
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: outlook to the cities like literally uh literally by by

768
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: absolutely no laws of well ass I mean like one

769
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: of the first things that I saw when we went

770
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 1: going battle and in the in the Karen villages, huh

771
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 1: around the house one of operation is that there was

772
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: absolutely no girl between the age of eleven to the

773
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 1: age of seventeen. I was like, I asked, you know,

774
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 1: my my uh commander about it, and he says, yeah,

775
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 1: like obviously it's if they stay as they will be

776
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: rapped by the that model and the first patron the

777
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: first time they will will come. You know. So this

778
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: this gives you a little bit of the tone of

779
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: what they are about. They constantly ransom civilians when they

780
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: don't model them, like you know, shell villages for no

781
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 1: reason or because there had been an operation of the kind,

782
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: and they take evenge and who they can take evenge

783
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 1: and is the civilians. You know. This is this is

784
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 1: how the b This is what they are basically. The

785
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: top the doll is a large army and many of

786
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: the conscripts are hardly high speed operator types. But that

787
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 1: hasn't stopped them from killing thousands of innocent civilians. I

788
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: mean they have as many army defined units with different

789
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:59,439
Speaker 1: military value. Uh let's say, uh, you know, um, many

790
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 1: times the units that they stuck on hilltop in the

791
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 1: middle of rebel zone are not like the most combative,

792
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 1: let's say, but sometimes we will get surprised resistance. But yeah,

793
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 1: except of that, when they to an operation in uh

794
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: in a place they bring in like more elite troops.

795
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 1: Let's say, by contrast, the k and l A, the

796
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: Karni National Liberation Army and other e aos relied on

797
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: civilian support to survive. The Canada operates in uh in

798
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 1: karen H territory and the civilians are karen I mean

799
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: pretty much when we when we arrive in uh in

800
00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: the village. As as medics, you know that we us

801
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: that the kind of the population distribute medicine. Uh No,

802
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: like I don't know what it was like quite uh

803
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 1: it's quite a fun new acquisition coming from the Tonto.

804
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,240
Speaker 1: This attitude has helped them pierces and they have always

805
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 1: been open to non current recruits. First of all, is

806
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: not absolutely not um let's say some kind of ethnicist

807
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: or organization or ethno nationalist like you know, with some

808
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: hate for US. I think group including the Obama echnic

809
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 1: group that like traditionally you know is the is our

810
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,399
Speaker 1: the leaders of the model that have been oppressing them

811
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 1: for seventy years. But they have absolutely no resentment that

812
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 1: are extremely open to work with the Democrats, democratic forces

813
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 1: from from every ethnical But yes, since nine said, the

814
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: k and l A had been linked to link up

815
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: with democratic rebels, providing them with training and shelter in

816
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 1: order to further their shared goal of a federal and

817
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 1: democratic country that treated all ethnicities with respect. So so

818
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: these Obama rebels, let's say, uh so trained by the

819
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: currents and so by people I know very well since

820
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 1: it was my commander then never so I've seen, I've

821
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 1: seen the currents. I've always been extremely accommodating to the

822
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:39,359
Speaker 1: Obama opposition, meaning the Obama the main ethnic group. I'd

823
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: say this for me for people that might not know

824
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 1: the difference. So and so the currents always had representation

825
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:55,359
Speaker 1: and they took like you know, political refugees, let's say,

826
00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 1: from from inside the Boma in the territor is the

827
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 1: control mano close I was like the Students Association, the

828
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 1: exact name I contricle right now. But all these are

829
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 1: organization of position. And so now they keep this tradition

830
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 1: by helping the uh these new rebails of the PDF

831
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 1: to get military training. And yes, by the summer of

832
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: young people had flooded into the jungles, and many of them,

833
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 1: even the ones of Burman ethnicity. We're fighting alongside the

834
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 1: Karin and Corenni rebels. They had previously seen as troublemakers

835
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: and terrorists. Just a year or two before. We spoke

836
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: with one of these people, Zall Lynn, who left his

837
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:48,879
Speaker 1: home in May. There was students, friends, but also young

838
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 1: people from just the neighborhood. Most people were just above twenty.

839
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: A lot of them were single. You know, there's women

840
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: as well, people whom new technology, young people from the

841
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: from the technology computer uh apologists why called university. A

842
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: lot of these people who knew modern technology went into

843
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 1: the jungle too, go into Chundle to train and be

844
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 1: able to overthrow the men online government. So there was

845
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: it was very tiring. We had to go up and

846
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 1: down unlocks of hills. It was two days of walking

847
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 1: get there, so up and down the hills and back down,

848
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:48,360
Speaker 1: up and down until we got to the training plant. Hello,

849
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 1: I'm Stacy Wilson Hunt, your host for Inventing Anna, the

850
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 1: official podcast from Shonda Rhymes and the creators at Shawonda Land.

851
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:58,799
Speaker 1: Inventing Anna tells the story of a young woman who

852
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,720
Speaker 1: charmed her way into the pocketbooks of New York's elite.

853
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,760
Speaker 1: Why is she gonna take off with that twenty million

854
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:06,399
Speaker 1: dollars from the banks or was she going to pour

855
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 1: it into this foundation. You know, people look at Anna

856
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 1: and see what they want to see. On this podcast,

857
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 1: you'll get v I P access to the real people

858
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,320
Speaker 1: who inspired the television series and to the actors and

859
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:19,439
Speaker 1: creatives like show runner Shaunda Rhimes who brought them to life.

860
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 1: We were working on the show while the trial was

861
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: going on. I remember doing a dramatic reading of Todd's

862
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:31,240
Speaker 1: opening statement for the Writer's Room. Who is the fake Heiress?

863
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: Anna Delvi join us as we unraveled the stories behind

864
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 1: the story. Everything's true until it's not, basically in Anna's world.

865
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 1: Listen to Inventing Anna, the official podcast every Wednesday on

866
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

867
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. From Cavalry Audio. The studio that brought

868
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 1: you The Devil Within and The Shadow Girls comes a

869
00:54:56,080 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 1: new true crime podcast, The Pink Moon Us. The local

870
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 1: sheriff believes there may be more than one killery. It's

871
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:06,919
Speaker 1: been four days since those bodies were found and there's

872
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: no arrest as it this morning. They were afraid it's

873
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 1: face it out in that area, what if they come

874
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: back or whatever. It scared me to death, like it

875
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 1: scared me. I was very, very intimidating to live here.

876
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: Crazy to think you go to sleep one night, maybe

877
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,800
Speaker 1: snuggling with your loved one, and never wake up, or

878
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: maybe you wake up in a struggle for your life,

879
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 1: which you lose. Joint host David Raderman as he explores

880
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 1: one fateful night when evil descended upon small town, Ohio

881
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 1: killed eight members of an Ohio family in a pre

882
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 1: planned execution. The family was targeted, most of them targeted

883
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 1: while they were sleeping. Follow the Pink Moon murders on

884
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you

885
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. What grows in the forest trees, Sure

886
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 1: no one else grows in the forest. Our imagination, our

887
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 1: sense of one day, and our family bonds grow too,

888
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 1: because when we just connect from this and connect with this,

889
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than

890
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 1: you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring.

891
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: I Discover the Forest dot Org. Brought to you by

892
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:25,800
Speaker 1: the United States Forest Service and the AD Council. Hey everyone,

893
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans, and welcome to episode three of Printing

894
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 1: the Revolution. Here's my partner, James Stout. In the spring

895
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 1: and summer of millions of Americans had versions of the

896
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: same experience. State forces killed the helpless man, Protesters took

897
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 1: to the streets in anger, and armed agents of the

898
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 1: state responded with mass violence. A lot of people's lives

899
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 1: changed for ever and fairly short order. What happened in

900
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 1: Me and Marra after the military coup was that story

901
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:59,440
Speaker 1: turned up to eleven within days. The military had used

902
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 1: live fire and demonstrators or a source for today's episode,

903
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 1: were twenty two years old at the time. He spent

904
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 1: his days working as delivery driver hang out with his

905
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:13,720
Speaker 1: girlfriend playing video games. On the day the coup started,

906
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 1: he was playing pub g after a long shift. Soon

907
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: he and his girlfriend took to the streets with thousands

908
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 1: of other gen z Burmese kids. The state responded with massacres,

909
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: often firing automatic weapons into the crowds. So I had

910
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 1: them been particularly politically active before this moment. In fact,

911
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: he felt pretty poorly towards revolutionary supposing the government in

912
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: the jungle, seeing them as rebellious troublemakers. Um in the past,

913
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 1: we thought that the military is a group that loves

914
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 1: all the people, that all the different groups in the

915
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 1: in the country, and then there's just a few people

916
00:57:51,480 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 1: who ate the moltree, but especially after the cool we

917
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: face it with our own foreheads and home with the guns.

918
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 1: We can face the evil the military and all the

919
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 1: human rights and things that people who hated the military

920
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 1: before we're talking about. We understand it now because we

921
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: had to face it ourselves. And then they're gonna tell

922
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 1: us terrorists, and however, must fix all us. We know

923
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 1: that we're finding for human rights, and we know that

924
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 1: each person deserves these basic things, you know. So so

925
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 1: even when we capture a soldier, we don't kill them

926
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: immediately as they're unarmed, you know. When they have sure PDF,

927
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 1: they torture and kill them very very horrifically or horrendously,

928
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 1: and they kill and to hurt all the citizens and

929
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 1: ordinary bystanders. So for us, what they're telling at rebels before,

930
00:58:56,200 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 1: we're not rebels. They're the ones that are rebels. So

931
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 1: we have to call down rebels. They're the terrorists. But

932
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 1: as violence against protesters escalated, Zull began to see through

933
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 1: the lives he'd been told by the military of his life.

934
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: What we were calling as rebels are what we kind

935
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 1: of become. But we know why we are now rebels

936
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 1: that's because of their terrorism there, oppressive reviews, and their

937
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: violation of human rights. That's why we have to revolt

938
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 1: against them. For a time, protesters responded creatively with giant

939
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 1: potato guns meant to fire less lethal protect ours long distances.

940
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: These homemade guns will be fired in volleys well. Other

941
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 1: protests protected them with shields. Some of these tactics were

942
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 1: effective a points, but it quickly became clear that the

943
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 1: government was willing to massacre everyone standing up to them.

944
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 1: So his girlfriend and their friends quickly decided that non

945
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 1: violent resistance wasn't going to work, but they didn't give up.

946
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: As we get onto into June, there's two paths, right.

947
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 1: We can be normal, we can go on the streets.

948
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 1: We can not ask for the people's power back, and

949
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 1: since that's not working, we know that what we have

950
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 1: to do is we need to hold these guns. Get

951
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 1: these guns. And on the military side, all they know

952
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: is that they will solve this by holding guns. So

953
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 1: the only thing, the only path that's left for us

954
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 1: is to take those guns for ourselves. So around the

955
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 1: end of May we started entering training school. So the

956
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: downtour is what the word he used, and it's something

957
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 1: like this corner part um so one corner part one

958
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 1: to two. So talking, what that means is that in

959
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: the funtings, funt things that we were doing, hunting rifles

960
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 1: that we were using for that. So we kind of

961
01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 1: start started and we fought first in Dimoso. If we

962
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 1: can ask the military nicely, then there's no reason for

963
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 1: us to be using guns. But since they don't listen

964
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 1: to our demands or our request at all, then the

965
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 1: and since that all we can do, all they are saying,

966
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 1: all they're doing is using the guns and being terrorists

967
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 1: trying to shoot us. So the only thing that we

968
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 1: can do to get what we need and what we

969
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 1: want is to take the guns for ourselves. And so,

970
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 1: like hundreds of people his age, it's all headed into

971
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 1: the jungle in May. The decision wasn't an overnight one

972
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 1: or an easy one. But after protesting non violently, then

973
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 1: meeting state violence with community defense, then seeing his peers

974
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 1: gunned down in the street, he didn't have many other choices.

975
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:50,920
Speaker 1: He picked up a megaphone, then a shield, and now

976
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 1: he was heading in the jungle to pick up a rifle.

977
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 1: The only problem was that there weren't any rifles. He

978
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 1: left with his girlfriend and quote with blessing of his parents.

979
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 1: Keep that in mind for later. When he first went

980
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 1: to the jungle, Zall went to a two week training

981
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 1: camp where the Karinny People's Defense Force taught him the

982
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:12,240
Speaker 1: basics of guerrilla warfare, but they didn't have enough weapons

983
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 1: to arm him and his friends. So these gen Z

984
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: militants began their fighting careers with twenty two caliber rifles.

985
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 1: If you aren't a gun person, the twenty two was

986
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 1: one of the smallest widely available bullets. Like any bullet,

987
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 1: it can kill, but as a caliber it's better suited

988
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 1: for shooting rabbits than soldiers. These twenty two rifles were

989
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: handmade locally and only fired one shot at a time.

990
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 1: But it was those rifles that Zaw, his girlfriend, and

991
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 1: their friends carried into their first gunfight with the Totmadaw.

992
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 1: After battling like that for about three weeks, the shooting stopped,

993
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 1: he said in an interview we conducted over signal. After

994
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:52,080
Speaker 1: the shooting stopped, we grouped together money to buy arms

995
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:56,200
Speaker 1: by asking for donations. They were massively outgunned, but determined

996
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 1: to fight on with the weapons they could make and

997
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 1: buy on the black market. Until they could find something better,

998
01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: even if that meant taking guns from dead soldiers. The

999
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 1: military's guns are extremely good, of course, compared to point

1000
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 1: two two's, he said. We fight with the mindset that

1001
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 1: we must win. Our minds are always prepared to take

1002
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 1: their guns when a soldier falls. It's a mindset to

1003
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 1: want the enemy's arms to beat your own arms. You

1004
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 1: need to want to resist injustice because we are fighting

1005
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 1: for what is right. We do not get sad even

1006
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 1: if we die. We are happy, even when wounded. We

1007
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 1: no longer care if our arms are matched unevenly. Now,

1008
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 1: despite their enthusiasm PDF units all over the country, we're

1009
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 1: finding themselves in the same desperate situation. When thousands of

1010
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 1: young people in myanm Are decided to take up arms

1011
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 1: against the government, they're just weren't enough guns to go around.

1012
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 1: A K pattern rifles sell for three thousand dollars on

1013
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 1: the black market, and a RS sell for up to

1014
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 1: seven thousand dollars. The g d P per capita in

1015
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:55,400
Speaker 1: twenty was just twelve hundred and eighteen dollars and thirty

1016
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:59,200
Speaker 1: five cents per person, and unlike militias in Syria and Iraq,

1017
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:02,439
Speaker 1: the Pro Democracy E a o S and Myanmar don't

1018
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 1: have the benefit questionable benefit of the US flooding the

1019
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 1: region with its fire hose of guns and money. Undeterred,

1020
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 1: Zall and his squad took to YouTube, where they found

1021
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 1: videos explaining how to make two to three caliber bolt

1022
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 1: action rifles. Again, if you're not a gun person, two

1023
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 1: to three may not sound very different than twenty two,

1024
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 1: But whereas twenty two is commonly used to shoot squirrels,

1025
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:26,680
Speaker 1: two to three is the standard rifle round more or

1026
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:29,840
Speaker 1: less for the US military. These new bolt action two

1027
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:32,320
Speaker 1: two three's All and his friends were making could not

1028
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 1: match the rate of fire of a modern rifle, but

1029
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 1: they could at least match those rifles in stopping power.

1030
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:41,320
Speaker 1: Once these gen z insurgents had the technique down, they

1031
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 1: created a detailed album on Facebook showing how everything from

1032
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:47,320
Speaker 1: the stock to the barrel could be made with pipes, lumber,

1033
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 1: and hours and hours of detailed hard work. Unlike their

1034
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 1: guerrilla warfare instructors, these kids had grown up on the

1035
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:56,160
Speaker 1: Internet rather than the jungle, so they knew that if

1036
01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:59,480
Speaker 1: it exists, there's a subreddit for it. It was the

1037
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 1: Internet that came to their rescue. Three D printed guns

1038
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 1: have been around for a decade, but the early models

1039
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 1: didn't work well and suffered from a pretty bad reputation

1040
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 1: due in part to Cody Wilson, the pedophile libertarian activists

1041
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:15,640
Speaker 1: we discussed last episode. Jake Hanrahan of Popular Front has

1042
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 1: covered the printed gun movement extensively. Cody Wilson made his

1043
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 1: whole thing like, I'm the guy with the three D

1044
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 1: printy guns, and he was on this moral cru side.

1045
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 1: The three D printed gun lads, particularly Deterrence Dispense, We're like, yeah,

1046
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 1: we don't. We don't give a ship about that. We're

1047
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 1: just putting our stuff out into the world. Obviously they

1048
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 1: got the ideas, but they weren't really wedded to this

1049
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:37,160
Speaker 1: idea of it being one person. Deterrence Dispensed was a

1050
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 1: group of anonymous activists who were more concerned with making

1051
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 1: printed guns that worked than making a name for themselves.

1052
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:46,720
Speaker 1: Hanrahan was connected to one activist who used the pseudonym

1053
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 1: Jay Stark, through the group, and after three years of

1054
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 1: conversing online, Hanrahan met Stark in Germany to produce a documentary.

1055
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 1: Jay Stark died of a heart attack following a police

1056
01:05:56,920 --> 01:06:00,320
Speaker 1: raid last year, so we spoke to Hanrahan about actual

1057
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 1: world deal. His whole worldview comes from this idea that

1058
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: you know, it's everybody should have the right to be

1059
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 1: able to fight tyranny. And if you can't fight tyranny,

1060
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:14,960
Speaker 1: like you're fucked. And the way to fight tyranny in

1061
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 1: the modern era is firearms. We know that. You know,

1062
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:21,120
Speaker 1: there's there's no you can't argue it's that no peaceful

1063
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 1: march gets rid of a fascist dictatorship or whatever. But

1064
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 1: he he was, he he was you know, there's some

1065
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 1: people would say he was far right. Some people say

1066
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:31,600
Speaker 1: it was an anarchist. Some people say he was a

1067
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:35,480
Speaker 1: US patriot. I mean, first, he wasn't even from America,

1068
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 1: and he had a lot of he liked the laws

1069
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 1: in America, but he wasn't like some of the American

1070
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:43,520
Speaker 1: kind of fan boy or anything in that sense. He

1071
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:45,840
Speaker 1: liked the gun lawds. He liked the freedom of speech lords,

1072
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 1: which I do as well. You know that personally, I

1073
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 1: in this country, you know, if you tweet the wrong thing,

1074
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 1: even in jest, like police will literally come to your

1075
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 1: house in Britain like it's happened, it's fucking mental um.

1076
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:58,800
Speaker 1: So yeah, he liked that kind of thing, um, And

1077
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 1: I think I think for him it was he was

1078
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 1: very tunnel vision, you know, he was very tunnel vision.

1079
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:07,919
Speaker 1: It was just freedom, freedom, freedom, and if he said,

1080
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 1: well what about this, what about that, he was like,

1081
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:11,640
Speaker 1: I don't care about that. Until the freedom is there,

1082
01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:14,280
Speaker 1: there's no point looking at anything else. And so his

1083
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,280
Speaker 1: brain was always on people that are living on the tyranny,

1084
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 1: you know, and it genuinely would. I know, there's a

1085
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 1: lot of people, even leftist, particularly leftist, have tried to

1086
01:07:22,640 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 1: completely smear him as a white supremacist. They were saying, oh,

1087
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 1: everything he said in that dog that I made was

1088
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 1: really it was secret um, anti Jewish white supremacy. And

1089
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 1: then it came out that he wasn't even white, you know.

1090
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:37,320
Speaker 1: It was like very good, very good, you fucking idiots.

1091
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:39,040
Speaker 1: So there was a lot of that going around. But

1092
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 1: I honestly believe that deep down he was just tunnel vision,

1093
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,920
Speaker 1: focused on this idea of every until everybody is not

1094
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:49,160
Speaker 1: living on the tyranny, I must go on this mission.

1095
01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 1: And okay, if if someone shoots up at school with

1096
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 1: what I've invented, so be it, you know, which I'm

1097
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 1: not saying that's good but that was just his idea.

1098
01:07:56,880 --> 01:07:58,360
Speaker 1: You know, he was like, so be it, fuck it

1099
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 1: if I can. You know, he was very genuine when

1100
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 1: he was done about the wigas or he was on

1101
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:05,360
Speaker 1: about the mistreatment of Kurds from Turkey, and you know,

1102
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 1: he was like, look, if we can build something that

1103
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:09,560
Speaker 1: can help them, well, sorry that the West might get

1104
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:13,040
Speaker 1: funked up because of it, but I'm focused on this now. Obviously,

1105
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 1: in in practice that would be chaos probably, but you know,

1106
01:08:18,280 --> 01:08:19,760
Speaker 1: he just saw it the way he saw it, and

1107
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 1: that was that. The cavalier attitude Stark seems to have

1108
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 1: had to how his invention might be used is of

1109
01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:28,880
Speaker 1: course worthy of criticism, but the revolutionaries on the ground

1110
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:32,240
Speaker 1: in Myanmar were not concerned with ideological debates over the

1111
01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:35,759
Speaker 1: ethics of homemade firearms. They needed guns, and they needed

1112
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 1: them now. J Stark's f GC nine, which stands for

1113
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 1: Fuck Gun Control nine millimeter, was simple to make, easy

1114
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:46,040
Speaker 1: to use, and relied entirely on parts you could print

1115
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:50,519
Speaker 1: or buy in any hardware store. In September, a post

1116
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:53,679
Speaker 1: popped up on the fosse cads subreddit, which is dedicated

1117
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 1: to the manufacturing of three D printed guns. Stark is

1118
01:08:56,880 --> 01:08:59,920
Speaker 1: a hero there. The post said, I wanted to say

1119
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 1: thanks to this community, the creators of f GC nine

1120
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:04,840
Speaker 1: and the various mods when we could. You guys are

1121
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 1: literally empowering the armed revolution against dictators and one of

1122
01:09:08,360 --> 01:09:11,439
Speaker 1: the most underdeveloped countries. We are now equipped with f

1123
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:14,240
Speaker 1: GC nine and starting the armed revolution to the cool

1124
01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:18,559
Speaker 1: leader dictator. As one poster comments, the account quote went

1125
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:20,760
Speaker 1: from posting about mobile games to how to three D

1126
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:23,960
Speaker 1: print SMG S two, desperately asking people to pay attention

1127
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:26,840
Speaker 1: what was happening in my and mar Then after the

1128
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:31,439
Speaker 1: f GC nine post, it was deleted entirely. J Stark

1129
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 1: never lived to see this. He would have loved it.

1130
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:39,360
Speaker 1: What everything that he was doing, that was the main

1131
01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 1: focus in my opinion, that like, it couldn't be a

1132
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:48,360
Speaker 1: more perfect, like practical actual realization of his project. You

1133
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:51,759
Speaker 1: couldn't pick a more perfect version of it to happen

1134
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:54,519
Speaker 1: like that, you know. And there's a lot of talk

1135
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 1: of all where there's a lot of drug dealers in Amsterdam,

1136
01:09:57,479 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 1: of FCC nines. There was a Nazi recently arrested with one.

1137
01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:04,160
Speaker 1: You know, these people are awful, of course, but the

1138
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:07,479
Speaker 1: most prevalent use of the f GC nine, and at

1139
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 1: least from what I've observed, has been from the rebels

1140
01:10:11,439 --> 01:10:13,040
Speaker 1: in MYRMA making them. I think that I've seen like

1141
01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:15,360
Speaker 1: thirty of them so far. You know, that's a lot

1142
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:17,240
Speaker 1: of them, and there was one was found stashed in

1143
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:20,000
Speaker 1: a bush. My theory is they're left around for ambush

1144
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:23,680
Speaker 1: attacks and areas that are not as fully controlled by

1145
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:28,639
Speaker 1: the rebels. First CAD, a community of mostly US based

1146
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:32,720
Speaker 1: gun printers, lost its collective mind, and it didn't take

1147
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:34,800
Speaker 1: long for people to make the connection between the post

1148
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:37,559
Speaker 1: and a desperate plight of me and my spring revolution.

1149
01:10:39,080 --> 01:10:41,759
Speaker 1: Soon after the post, the tap the Door started posting

1150
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:45,720
Speaker 1: pictures of f GC nine, often without sits, captured from

1151
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:50,519
Speaker 1: fighters in Yangon, and the twenty one September, the Tapmo

1152
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:55,320
Speaker 1: Door's Ministry of Information released a statement, I'm thea th

1153
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 1: way yea mint. We're found with an f GC nine

1154
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:03,639
Speaker 1: Mark two pistol five rounds of nine millimeter any nisition.

1155
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:08,879
Speaker 1: They were arrested along with their drone. The military alleged

1156
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:12,240
Speaker 1: they were an urban unit from the same generation Z

1157
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:16,439
Speaker 1: Freedom Army that's all was a part of. That same month,

1158
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:20,320
Speaker 1: the military posted pictures of three more captured FGC nins,

1159
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 1: suggesting that at least five have been captured by late September.

1160
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:29,400
Speaker 1: Then two months later, a new post popped up in

1161
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:33,599
Speaker 1: the Fosse cat sebreddit. Hey, I'm back and the guy

1162
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:35,800
Speaker 1: who posted a thank you note back in September here.

1163
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:39,160
Speaker 1: Now that the f GC nines are ready known by

1164
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:41,800
Speaker 1: the dictator, I can proudly announce the We're from me

1165
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:45,400
Speaker 1: and Mar. Yes, we are mass producing FGC nines to

1166
01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:48,920
Speaker 1: fight back against the Dictator. More intfo about our production

1167
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:53,559
Speaker 1: will be published later this time. The user you slash

1168
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:57,400
Speaker 1: daddy u m c D hung around to answer questions.

1169
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:00,840
Speaker 1: Those bastards didn't know we had the tech back then.

1170
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:03,840
Speaker 1: Now that everything is in public, we can proudly say

1171
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:07,320
Speaker 1: we're from me and Mar. We are mostly responsible for

1172
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:10,439
Speaker 1: production in R and D, even though we also involved

1173
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:13,760
Speaker 1: in other ground missions. We distribute the FDC nine to

1174
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:16,479
Speaker 1: a lot of different urban guerrillas in urban and rural areas.

1175
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 1: Some of the units got arrested a few weeks ago,

1176
01:12:19,960 --> 01:12:21,759
Speaker 1: which you might have already seen on the sub credit.

1177
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:25,280
Speaker 1: Apart from the FTC nine, there are other equipments and

1178
01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:28,479
Speaker 1: weapons that are being produced with three D printers, he wrote.

1179
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:33,240
Speaker 1: He said his team were residing in ethnic armed organization areas,

1180
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:37,559
Speaker 1: mainly the current National Union and the Kachin Independence Army

1181
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:41,760
Speaker 1: controlled zones. He posted that they tried other three D

1182
01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:44,800
Speaker 1: printer designs, such as the plastic of which is a

1183
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:48,240
Speaker 1: printed a K forty seven receiver, but getting the other

1184
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:52,640
Speaker 1: parts made it impractical. By contrast, the FTC nine can

1185
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:55,439
Speaker 1: be made entirely using a three D printer and some

1186
01:12:55,600 --> 01:12:59,800
Speaker 1: hardware store parts. According to another source, me and Must

1187
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:02,840
Speaker 1: motorcycle repair shops made quick work of the metal barrels

1188
01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:06,839
Speaker 1: and bolts. Electro Chemical machining was used to make more barrels.

1189
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:09,759
Speaker 1: They also had the chance to buy a few glock

1190
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:13,519
Speaker 1: barrels from Thailand, Daddy U m c d said, but

1191
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 1: those cost a lot more than the FDC nine barrels.

1192
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:21,479
Speaker 1: While his account continued to post, the military continued to

1193
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:25,760
Speaker 1: share photos of captured FCC nines. Three workshops that have

1194
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:28,479
Speaker 1: been using lathes to make the barrels are raided. The

1195
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:31,360
Speaker 1: photos of three more captured guns popped up in November,

1196
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:35,880
Speaker 1: alongside bolt action rifles. It's still had stickers on their

1197
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:40,360
Speaker 1: stocks from what looked like US gun shops. Production and

1198
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:45,200
Speaker 1: decentralized locations continued despite the raids, while other groups fought

1199
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 1: on with homemade revolving rifles, crude homemade wooden stocks, another

1200
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:55,160
Speaker 1: improvised weapons. A telegram channel with instructions in Burmese on

1201
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 1: how to make the guns made sure that even when

1202
01:13:58,000 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 1: one shop or gunsmith was taken out of the fire,

1203
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 1: the knowledge wasn't lost. Although filament for their three D

1204
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:07,560
Speaker 1: printers were becoming harder to get, they'd stock powered a

1205
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:12,000
Speaker 1: lot in advance. Daddy U M C D try to

1206
01:14:12,080 --> 01:14:17,360
Speaker 1: manufacture automatic FTC nights and another printiple model called Professor

1207
01:14:17,400 --> 01:14:21,120
Speaker 1: Parabellum square tubes of machine gun. But nothing else seemed

1208
01:14:21,120 --> 01:14:24,439
Speaker 1: as easier as reliable as the FTC NIGHTE of course

1209
01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 1: read it. Being read it, people questioned the veracity and

1210
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:32,439
Speaker 1: utility of his posts, he responded, FDC nines are just

1211
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:34,840
Speaker 1: part of the game because they could be produced with

1212
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:38,040
Speaker 1: what we have at the lowest cost available rifles of

1213
01:14:38,120 --> 01:14:40,719
Speaker 1: four thousand to seven thousand U S dollars at our border,

1214
01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:45,479
Speaker 1: f gcs are under one hundred dollars. Rifle parts are

1215
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:49,479
Speaker 1: ten times more expensive than lock parts. To all those

1216
01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:52,479
Speaker 1: who are saying these photos of Suss, we don't want

1217
01:14:52,479 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 1: to blame the suspicion. If any of you remember the

1218
01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:58,120
Speaker 1: threat I posted in September, you will remember that we

1219
01:14:58,160 --> 01:15:01,280
Speaker 1: are mass producing FDC nights. The ones in the photos

1220
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:03,920
Speaker 1: you've seen were supplied by us. There are many groups

1221
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:06,320
Speaker 1: like this now we do the main production, just like

1222
01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:10,240
Speaker 1: I explained in September. Then, Daddy U m c D

1223
01:15:10,479 --> 01:15:12,439
Speaker 1: went on to thank the other members of the subreddit,

1224
01:15:13,080 --> 01:15:15,479
Speaker 1: claiming their active help with the only reason he and

1225
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:18,880
Speaker 1: other revolutionaries have been able to overcome certain technical issues.

1226
01:15:19,840 --> 01:15:22,639
Speaker 1: We wouldn't be here without you guys, especially someone who

1227
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:25,479
Speaker 1: shared with me. The buffer spring and fire control groups

1228
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:30,840
Speaker 1: bring measurements, he said. By late November, photos of f

1229
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:33,920
Speaker 1: GC nines in the hands of fighters emerged and they

1230
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:37,439
Speaker 1: showed sights. This time they had longer barrels and home

1231
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:41,720
Speaker 1: made suppresses too. The f GC nines were apparently used

1232
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:44,680
Speaker 1: by urban units for close up fighting and for the

1233
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:47,040
Speaker 1: training of new fighters, since they have essentially the same

1234
01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:50,439
Speaker 1: controls than they are fifteen or M sixteen rifle, both

1235
01:15:50,479 --> 01:15:52,719
Speaker 1: of which are common in ME and mis rebel units.

1236
01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:57,439
Speaker 1: We have successfully streamlined variety of techniques to produce f

1237
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:03,400
Speaker 1: GC nine one thousand plus efficiently. Our primary forces are

1238
01:16:03,400 --> 01:16:06,960
Speaker 1: equipped with proper rifles. F GC nines are a guerrilla warfare.

1239
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:09,960
Speaker 1: We started using those in Hit and Run and Special

1240
01:16:10,040 --> 01:16:13,200
Speaker 1: Task Force missions too. We don't share much about the

1241
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:16,080
Speaker 1: mission to the public yet. It will definitely come and

1242
01:16:16,120 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 1: when it does, are updated here if I'm still alive

1243
01:16:19,200 --> 01:16:22,360
Speaker 1: ha ha wrote Daddy U m c d on the

1244
01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:27,480
Speaker 1: False cat Sebreddit. Even with production in False Wing, ammunition

1245
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:32,400
Speaker 1: remained a problem. Although some regions can produce twenty two

1246
01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:34,920
Speaker 1: and nine millimeter at home. According to Daddy U m

1247
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:38,839
Speaker 1: c D, five six can be purchased in large quantities

1248
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:42,320
Speaker 1: at the border with Thailand, but it isn't cheap. Instead,

1249
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:45,880
Speaker 1: the PDF alid and raiding police and military outposts in

1250
01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:47,880
Speaker 1: the same way the e O has had for years.

1251
01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:51,719
Speaker 1: Nine millimeter is the most common center fire pistol around

1252
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:54,840
Speaker 1: in the world. That's why the Turrents Dispense picked it

1253
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:58,600
Speaker 1: for the f GC nine sees weapons often only have

1254
01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:01,840
Speaker 1: a handful of rounds, but that's enough to kill a

1255
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:05,000
Speaker 1: soldier and take his weapon. Jay Stock might not have

1256
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:07,879
Speaker 1: been around to see his invantion used to fight Tyranny,

1257
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:10,759
Speaker 1: but Hammerhan thinks he would have been happy with the results.

1258
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:13,639
Speaker 1: He would have been made up. I think that's everything

1259
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:16,160
Speaker 1: he wanted to achieve. You know what I'm saying, That

1260
01:17:16,320 --> 01:17:19,559
Speaker 1: really is everything you wanted to do. Even the National

1261
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:23,160
Speaker 1: Unity government me and mus government in exile has come

1262
01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:25,320
Speaker 1: around to at least some of Jay Stock's ways of thinking.

1263
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:29,280
Speaker 1: According to Daddy U m c D Ministry of Defense

1264
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:32,280
Speaker 1: Minister already promised about the right to bear arms at

1265
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:36,200
Speaker 1: the first day of the revolution. Promises made by revolutionary

1266
01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:39,680
Speaker 1: governments are not exactly solid commitments, but it's not hard

1267
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:42,360
Speaker 1: to see why a generation of kids like Zaw, forged

1268
01:17:42,439 --> 01:17:45,280
Speaker 1: by an asymmetrical conflict with a government that possessed a

1269
01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:48,920
Speaker 1: near absolute advantage in armaments, might be committed to staying

1270
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:52,200
Speaker 1: armed even if they win. At the moment, the future

1271
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:54,960
Speaker 1: of their struggle is very much end doubt. Scrolling through

1272
01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:58,520
Speaker 1: Facebook photos of Zol and his comrades is a surreal experience.

1273
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:02,000
Speaker 1: They look not just to young soldiers mostly look young,

1274
01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:06,640
Speaker 1: but they look like students kids from some weirdly militarized university.

1275
01:18:07,080 --> 01:18:09,600
Speaker 1: Photos on Facebook show them sprawled out together in the

1276
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:13,160
Speaker 1: grass and camo fatigues bearing rifles, but each glued to

1277
01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:17,000
Speaker 1: their phones as they cuddle in together. Zaw and his girlfriend,

1278
01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:19,439
Speaker 1: who he described to us as the girl I love,

1279
01:18:19,880 --> 01:18:23,080
Speaker 1: fought alongside each other until January seven of this year.

1280
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:28,479
Speaker 1: The battle that we started, she was coming within and

1281
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:32,479
Speaker 1: you know as EPA. Since weapons landed near her and

1282
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:38,479
Speaker 1: hit her like so ther bone broke so so she

1283
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:41,280
Speaker 1: had to go to hospital. Three D printed and homemade

1284
01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:43,559
Speaker 1: guns have helped, but Zoll and his friends are still

1285
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:47,280
Speaker 1: fighting against a modern military with planes, night vision goggles,

1286
01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:50,400
Speaker 1: and tanks. Despite this, more than a year after the coup,

1287
01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:54,200
Speaker 1: they're still fighting and more soldiers deffect to join them weekly.

1288
01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:57,839
Speaker 1: It's hard to see what victory looks like. The cities

1289
01:18:57,880 --> 01:19:01,000
Speaker 1: will be another battle altogether. But the jungle camp where's

1290
01:19:01,040 --> 01:19:03,640
Speaker 1: all video calls us from, it's impossible to see what

1291
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:06,840
Speaker 1: giving up might look like. Either he's still fighting, his

1292
01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:09,680
Speaker 1: girlfriend is healing, and they both committed to staying out

1293
01:19:09,720 --> 01:19:11,880
Speaker 1: in the jungle until they are in their freedom back

1294
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:24,160
Speaker 1: or diet trying. And we're live here outside the Perez

1295
01:19:24,280 --> 01:19:27,120
Speaker 1: family home, just waiting for the and there they go

1296
01:19:27,439 --> 01:19:30,120
Speaker 1: almost on time. This morning. Mom is coming out the

1297
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:33,000
Speaker 1: front door strong with a double arm kid carry looks

1298
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:36,599
Speaker 1: like Dad has the bags daughter he's bringing up the rear. Oh,

1299
01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:42,479
Speaker 1: but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere. Oh,

1300
01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:46,040
Speaker 1: but mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle

1301
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:49,240
Speaker 1: for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter, who looks

1302
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:51,880
Speaker 1: to be about nine or ten, has secured herself and

1303
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:56,400
Speaker 1: the booster seat. Dad zips the bag clothes and they're off. Ah,

1304
01:19:56,479 --> 01:19:58,840
Speaker 1: but looks like mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is

1305
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:03,040
Speaker 1: still on the roof of the car and there it goes. Oh,

1306
01:20:03,479 --> 01:20:06,439
Speaker 1: that's a shame that mug was a fan favorite. Don't

1307
01:20:06,479 --> 01:20:09,000
Speaker 1: sweat the small stuff, just nail the big stuff, like

1308
01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:10,880
Speaker 1: making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right

1309
01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:13,080
Speaker 1: seat for their agent's eyes. Learn more n h t

1310
01:20:13,240 --> 01:20:17,280
Speaker 1: s a dot gov slash the right Seat. Visits dot

1311
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:20,400
Speaker 1: gov slash the Right Seat, brought to you by NITZA

1312
01:20:20,439 --> 01:20:24,559
Speaker 1: and the ad Council. What grows in the forest trees?

1313
01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:28,360
Speaker 1: Sure you know what else grows in the forest Our imagination,

1314
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:31,800
Speaker 1: our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too,

1315
01:20:32,240 --> 01:20:37,200
Speaker 1: because when we disconnect from this and connect with this,

1316
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:42,120
Speaker 1: we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than

1317
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:45,520
Speaker 1: you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring.

1318
01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:48,200
Speaker 1: I discover the forest dot org brought to you by

1319
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:52,280
Speaker 1: the United States Forest Service and the AD Council. Look

1320
01:20:52,360 --> 01:20:55,160
Speaker 1: to your children's eyes to see the true magic of

1321
01:20:55,280 --> 01:20:58,880
Speaker 1: a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look

1322
01:20:59,040 --> 01:21:01,760
Speaker 1: and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of

1323
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:05,320
Speaker 1: a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see

1324
01:21:05,360 --> 01:21:08,599
Speaker 1: treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could

1325
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:12,639
Speaker 1: lead to adventure, and they see you. They're fearless. Guide

1326
01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:16,080
Speaker 1: to this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and

1327
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:19,200
Speaker 1: start exploring and discovered the forest dot org brought to

1328
01:21:19,240 --> 01:21:21,759
Speaker 1: you by the United States Forest Service and the AD Council.

1329
01:21:28,400 --> 01:21:30,920
Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans, and this is part four of me

1330
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:35,200
Speaker 1: and mar printing the Revolution. And then once we got there,

1331
01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:38,920
Speaker 1: we couldn't rest, you know, reign side or whatever. Women

1332
01:21:39,000 --> 01:21:43,280
Speaker 1: as well, we were all like try when they came,

1333
01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:45,880
Speaker 1: when we were leaving, they were all like very fair

1334
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:49,879
Speaker 1: skin beautiful. And then we went in and then everyone

1335
01:21:49,960 --> 01:21:53,519
Speaker 1: got tamped in the jungle. We're training all the time,

1336
01:21:54,360 --> 01:21:57,439
Speaker 1: you know, people in training camp. We were driven apart.

1337
01:21:57,520 --> 01:21:59,360
Speaker 1: And then the reason that we were all doing business

1338
01:21:59,439 --> 01:22:03,240
Speaker 1: because of an Aline coup as students and how much

1339
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:07,040
Speaker 1: he has terrorized the public and the people, and that's

1340
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:10,240
Speaker 1: why we were We have this morale and the ability

1341
01:22:10,320 --> 01:22:14,080
Speaker 1: to get through the training and be able to wield weapons.

1342
01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:18,560
Speaker 1: Zora and his friends went into the junglist students, programmers

1343
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:23,439
Speaker 1: and kids. Now they're fighters. They were tech savvy young people,

1344
01:22:23,520 --> 01:22:27,120
Speaker 1: he says. They grew up online and that generational divide

1345
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:29,639
Speaker 1: which the internet brought here came much later in Mihama.

1346
01:22:30,400 --> 01:22:33,599
Speaker 1: It wasn't until twenty eleven the people really gained access

1347
01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:36,519
Speaker 1: to the Internet and with it the new ideas and

1348
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:40,720
Speaker 1: identities that it brought. Those generation are among the first

1349
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:45,400
Speaker 1: to embrace global connectivity, and now after having it taken away,

1350
01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:48,000
Speaker 1: they're refusing to give it up. The start of the

1351
01:22:48,080 --> 01:22:53,719
Speaker 1: coup in February, the military, well gen Z was organizing online,

1352
01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:56,880
Speaker 1: social media and all that so and they were kind

1353
01:22:56,920 --> 01:23:00,320
Speaker 1: of I think this is from my experience, but um

1354
01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:05,920
Speaker 1: kind of organizing around like gen Z is going to

1355
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:08,920
Speaker 1: be different than the generation because we have the Internet,

1356
01:23:09,040 --> 01:23:12,479
Speaker 1: and also we know more about the world and can

1357
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:15,320
Speaker 1: come communicate to the rest of the world. I think

1358
01:23:15,560 --> 01:23:17,920
Speaker 1: one thing that was big was that in two thousand eight,

1359
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:21,679
Speaker 1: it just took one video leaking out of the country

1360
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:25,920
Speaker 1: for there to be big international repercussions. It's worth noting

1361
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:28,680
Speaker 1: that when people in Burma talk about the Internet, they

1362
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:33,200
Speaker 1: mean Facebook. Phones come with the Facebook app installed and

1363
01:23:33,320 --> 01:23:37,679
Speaker 1: it's sometimes exempt from data charges. For many people in Burma,

1364
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:42,040
Speaker 1: using the Internet means using Facebook. Zor and his friends

1365
01:23:42,120 --> 01:23:44,680
Speaker 1: are different from their parents in many ways, not at

1366
01:23:44,720 --> 01:23:47,160
Speaker 1: least in their perceptions of authority. This has led to

1367
01:23:47,240 --> 01:23:50,599
Speaker 1: a situation where the PDF people's defense force units are

1368
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:54,040
Speaker 1: much less hierarchical than units of the Townmador. So when

1369
01:23:54,080 --> 01:23:59,879
Speaker 1: we make decisions in our group, there's no master and students.

1370
01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:02,760
Speaker 1: There's no teacher and student. But you know the way

1371
01:24:02,840 --> 01:24:06,679
Speaker 1: that it works, there are people who are good, they're older,

1372
01:24:06,800 --> 01:24:10,599
Speaker 1: people who are more trained, and then their new recruits,

1373
01:24:10,640 --> 01:24:13,280
Speaker 1: new people who just came in. So of course the

1374
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:15,439
Speaker 1: people who were there for longer and know more about

1375
01:24:15,439 --> 01:24:20,439
Speaker 1: the situation have more voice. And when we discussed, especially

1376
01:24:20,520 --> 01:24:24,320
Speaker 1: people who were there when we founded this group, there

1377
01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:27,200
Speaker 1: were only really eight people from when we group. So

1378
01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:30,439
Speaker 1: those eight people kind of discussed on the bigger strategy.

1379
01:24:32,479 --> 01:24:37,960
Speaker 1: You know, we don't really vote there. He says he

1380
01:24:38,040 --> 01:24:41,080
Speaker 1: wants to do it. He thinks it's good. We are

1381
01:24:41,520 --> 01:24:44,000
Speaker 1: there's the seven of us we think is good, or

1382
01:24:44,120 --> 01:24:46,880
Speaker 1: we support him, or someone says, well we don't really

1383
01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:49,599
Speaker 1: like that idea, then we don't do it. They try

1384
01:24:49,640 --> 01:24:52,839
Speaker 1: to achieve more gender quality as well. There's are explained

1385
01:24:52,920 --> 01:24:54,800
Speaker 1: that in his unit the women are not always the

1386
01:24:54,880 --> 01:24:59,360
Speaker 1: frontline fight is that's the place there's no discrimination. You know,

1387
01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:03,519
Speaker 1: we're men can women and men were training whoever could come.

1388
01:25:04,960 --> 01:25:10,040
Speaker 1: But like on the battlefield, people, we don't use women

1389
01:25:10,080 --> 01:25:14,040
Speaker 1: that much on the battlefield. That's one thing that we

1390
01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:17,120
Speaker 1: do know is that it is not it's not really discrimination.

1391
01:25:17,240 --> 01:25:23,040
Speaker 1: But if women are with us together, we have a

1392
01:25:23,800 --> 01:25:26,400
Speaker 1: confusion about whether we need to protect them or we're

1393
01:25:26,479 --> 01:25:29,400
Speaker 1: just fighting with with them or they're fighting in front

1394
01:25:29,439 --> 01:25:35,320
Speaker 1: of us. And that there's one thing that is very different.

1395
01:25:36,280 --> 01:25:42,559
Speaker 1: It is that in terms of mentality, we we can't.

1396
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:45,680
Speaker 1: We never take the women out really far into very

1397
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:50,080
Speaker 1: dangerous fights. So often they're in the back as back

1398
01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:54,559
Speaker 1: up or two supplies or things like that. But as

1399
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:58,920
Speaker 1: you know, the military government, the military terroristists are very

1400
01:25:59,160 --> 01:26:03,519
Speaker 1: very it's very unethical. They don't follow the rules, so

1401
01:26:03,840 --> 01:26:07,040
Speaker 1: you know they're gonna shoot whoever they see. So even

1402
01:26:07,120 --> 01:26:09,679
Speaker 1: if they're hanging back and they're sending medical supplies there.

1403
01:26:10,439 --> 01:26:13,080
Speaker 1: They can still get hit for ZOR in particular, there's

1404
01:26:13,080 --> 01:26:15,240
Speaker 1: a lot of stake. After almost an hour and a

1405
01:26:15,280 --> 01:26:18,720
Speaker 1: half of talking, I asked about his parents. I've heard

1406
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:21,400
Speaker 1: of retribution attacks against the families of fighters and wondered

1407
01:26:21,439 --> 01:26:23,800
Speaker 1: if he was worried about that. So mom and dad

1408
01:26:23,880 --> 01:26:28,439
Speaker 1: are both they support me fighting against the military. They're

1409
01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:32,800
Speaker 1: very happy. Is that really wants to do cdium, but

1410
01:26:32,920 --> 01:26:39,160
Speaker 1: he can't run away because the military has taken his

1411
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:43,759
Speaker 1: uh mother and his sisters. He's still has five sisters.

1412
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:47,840
Speaker 1: They're all still in that military command and they're worked

1413
01:26:47,880 --> 01:26:52,519
Speaker 1: there in the military stool schools, so it's very hard

1414
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:57,599
Speaker 1: for them to run away, right, So he really wants

1415
01:26:57,640 --> 01:27:01,640
Speaker 1: to leave the military, but he can't though whole so

1416
01:27:02,280 --> 01:27:05,040
Speaker 1: that the fact that I am they're trying to fight

1417
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:09,719
Speaker 1: against the military. He's very happy, and but he tells

1418
01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:14,120
Speaker 1: me to be careful about my own life. They're supportive

1419
01:27:14,400 --> 01:27:16,840
Speaker 1: and they really want to come fight themselves, but they

1420
01:27:16,920 --> 01:27:20,680
Speaker 1: can't because of my sisters and my mother. So him

1421
01:27:20,720 --> 01:27:23,240
Speaker 1: seeing that I can do it, it's really wonderful for them.

1422
01:27:24,360 --> 01:27:29,560
Speaker 1: So his father, his other brother and other people, but

1423
01:27:29,720 --> 01:27:33,920
Speaker 1: are three of them below him they've all usually just

1424
01:27:34,080 --> 01:27:38,879
Speaker 1: lived together with his grandfather and stuff in the military.

1425
01:27:38,960 --> 01:27:42,439
Speaker 1: Compounds are near the military, so he really wants to

1426
01:27:42,560 --> 01:27:44,439
Speaker 1: call all the people that are still there, but they

1427
01:27:44,560 --> 01:27:48,000
Speaker 1: can't leave. This is what civil wood does, trapped us

1428
01:27:48,040 --> 01:27:50,479
Speaker 1: in a situation where we can't make the right choice

1429
01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:54,000
Speaker 1: even when we know what it is. In many situations,

1430
01:27:54,439 --> 01:27:56,600
Speaker 1: it's pretty hard to discern right from wrong in the

1431
01:27:56,680 --> 01:27:59,880
Speaker 1: midst of so much violence. Zool has been able to fight,

1432
01:28:00,520 --> 01:28:03,200
Speaker 1: but his dad is stuck fighting against people like his

1433
01:28:03,320 --> 01:28:07,360
Speaker 1: son in order to protect his daughters. Thousands of families

1434
01:28:07,360 --> 01:28:10,360
Speaker 1: across the country divided in the same way by circumstance

1435
01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:14,519
Speaker 1: or ideology. The military is something of a separate society,

1436
01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:17,639
Speaker 1: has its own schools in its own culture, but ethnic

1437
01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:21,120
Speaker 1: armed organizations have not been close to open populations either,

1438
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:24,520
Speaker 1: and so whole new identities have been forged by Generation

1439
01:28:24,640 --> 01:28:28,280
Speaker 1: Z while their families often struggle to abandon all certainties.

1440
01:28:29,080 --> 01:28:32,280
Speaker 1: As we record this, Zoo is still fighting, his girlfriend

1441
01:28:32,360 --> 01:28:34,880
Speaker 1: is still healing. Every few weeks a video of him

1442
01:28:34,920 --> 01:28:37,600
Speaker 1: and his friends pops up on redditor Facebook. They have

1443
01:28:37,720 --> 01:28:40,200
Speaker 1: optics on their rifles now and are taking long range

1444
01:28:40,200 --> 01:28:43,760
Speaker 1: shots at the TOTMODA who rely on iron sights. They

1445
01:28:43,840 --> 01:28:46,880
Speaker 1: shoot and reload like soldiers, and they laugh like kids.

1446
01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:50,719
Speaker 1: The Totmada still controls the cities, but to move between

1447
01:28:50,800 --> 01:28:53,679
Speaker 1: them they have to travel in convoys at breakneck speeds,

1448
01:28:54,160 --> 01:28:57,080
Speaker 1: using ambushes, mines and knowledge of the terrain. E A

1449
01:28:57,240 --> 01:28:59,280
Speaker 1: O S and the PDF are able to deny the

1450
01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:03,400
Speaker 1: military access to large portions of the countryside. Without a

1451
01:29:03,479 --> 01:29:05,960
Speaker 1: serious change in the conflict, it might stay like this

1452
01:29:06,200 --> 01:29:09,839
Speaker 1: for years. A report published this month detailed the attacks

1453
01:29:09,880 --> 01:29:13,519
Speaker 1: in the Karini state by the Totmada on churches, residential homes,

1454
01:29:13,720 --> 01:29:16,360
Speaker 1: camps for displaced people, which killed sixty one and the

1455
01:29:16,400 --> 01:29:19,519
Speaker 1: months since Saw left the city. On Christmas Eve. In

1456
01:29:19,640 --> 01:29:23,720
Speaker 1: Uprusso's township, they killed at least forty civilians. Autopsies show

1457
01:29:23,840 --> 01:29:27,320
Speaker 1: some were gagged and burned alive. In recent months, the

1458
01:29:27,360 --> 01:29:30,360
Speaker 1: Totmodal has increased its use of air strikes against targets

1459
01:29:30,400 --> 01:29:34,639
Speaker 1: that it deems legitimate. Ming Anhlang, the junta's leader, flew

1460
01:29:34,720 --> 01:29:37,720
Speaker 1: to Russia twice. In twenty twenty one, he was proclaimed

1461
01:29:37,760 --> 01:29:41,040
Speaker 1: an honorary professor of the Military University of the Russian

1462
01:29:41,200 --> 01:29:44,960
Speaker 1: Armed Forces. Quote. We are determined to continue our efforts

1463
01:29:45,000 --> 01:29:48,280
Speaker 1: to strengthen bilateral ties based on the mutual understanding, respect

1464
01:29:48,320 --> 01:29:51,080
Speaker 1: and trust that have been established between our two countries,

1465
01:29:51,479 --> 01:29:54,519
Speaker 1: Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said at a meeting with

1466
01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:57,479
Speaker 1: the coup leader on June twenty second. We pay special

1467
01:29:57,520 --> 01:29:59,400
Speaker 1: attention to this meeting as we see me and mar

1468
01:29:59,479 --> 01:30:02,280
Speaker 1: as a time tested strategic partner and a reliable ally

1469
01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:05,160
Speaker 1: in Southeast Asia and the Asia Pacific region. He went on.

1470
01:30:06,080 --> 01:30:09,240
Speaker 1: Min On Plange was equally lavish with his praise, saying

1471
01:30:09,320 --> 01:30:13,000
Speaker 1: that he saw Russia as a friend forever. Myanmar relies

1472
01:30:13,040 --> 01:30:16,920
Speaker 1: heavily on Russian hind M I thirty five helicopter gunships,

1473
01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:20,559
Speaker 1: transport helicopters, Mid twenty nine and s U thirty fighter

1474
01:30:20,640 --> 01:30:23,840
Speaker 1: jets and Yak one thirty ground attack aircraft to carry

1475
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:27,200
Speaker 1: out bombing raids and straight civilians. All of these weapons

1476
01:30:27,240 --> 01:30:30,479
Speaker 1: systems have been seen more recently in the fighting in Ukraine.

1477
01:30:31,280 --> 01:30:34,920
Speaker 1: One prominent Burmese Irish family, the Kiyotongs, has helped the

1478
01:30:34,960 --> 01:30:38,799
Speaker 1: junta avoid an international arms embargo using their global connections

1479
01:30:38,840 --> 01:30:41,839
Speaker 1: and a network of shady shadow companies. They have purchased

1480
01:30:41,880 --> 01:30:44,800
Speaker 1: helicopters under the pretense of using them for tourism and

1481
01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:47,360
Speaker 1: the oil and gas industry and handed them over to

1482
01:30:47,439 --> 01:30:51,160
Speaker 1: the Topmadaw. They've also helped shuttle coastal radar to Menmar,

1483
01:30:51,320 --> 01:30:54,599
Speaker 1: which the Topmadal used to track Rohinga refugees and provide

1484
01:30:54,640 --> 01:30:58,719
Speaker 1: cover for several aircraft purchases. To fund these arms purchases,

1485
01:30:58,800 --> 01:31:01,960
Speaker 1: the Totmada has found willing markets for luxury goods abroad,

1486
01:31:02,360 --> 01:31:05,439
Speaker 1: according to Justice for Menmar, since the coup in February,

1487
01:31:06,640 --> 01:31:09,599
Speaker 1: the United States has imported fifteen hundred and sixty five

1488
01:31:09,680 --> 01:31:13,080
Speaker 1: metric tons of teak from the Anmar, using intermediaries to

1489
01:31:13,160 --> 01:31:16,439
Speaker 1: avoid sanctions. And the two thousand seventeen two thousand eighteen

1490
01:31:16,479 --> 01:31:19,000
Speaker 1: financial year, the last year for which data is available,

1491
01:31:19,360 --> 01:31:22,320
Speaker 1: the government received one hundred million US dollars in revenue

1492
01:31:22,360 --> 01:31:26,599
Speaker 1: from taxes and royalties applied to the timber tradee There

1493
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:29,639
Speaker 1: were more shipments than two thousand eighteen, offering the top

1494
01:31:29,720 --> 01:31:32,479
Speaker 1: Medaw the chance to make enough money to continue purchasing

1495
01:31:32,520 --> 01:31:36,599
Speaker 1: weapons to use against their population. The conflict in Myanmar

1496
01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:40,120
Speaker 1: remains complicated. It's easy to reduce the alphabet soup of

1497
01:31:40,160 --> 01:31:42,320
Speaker 1: rebel groups to E A O S and the PDF,

1498
01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:45,960
Speaker 1: but these groups and their motivations are diverse. Pierre explained

1499
01:31:45,960 --> 01:31:49,040
Speaker 1: to us that even within the Kuran there are deep divisions. Well,

1500
01:31:49,160 --> 01:31:53,760
Speaker 1: first you have to know that historically the Karen Rebellion

1501
01:31:54,400 --> 01:31:59,280
Speaker 1: that started in nineteen forty eight nineteen, so quite a

1502
01:31:59,320 --> 01:32:05,840
Speaker 1: long timeable was led by by Christian by the Christian minority, okay,

1503
01:32:05,960 --> 01:32:09,680
Speaker 1: of the of the current people because obviously that was

1504
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:17,760
Speaker 1: the most Western educated people UM at the time. And

1505
01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:22,240
Speaker 1: so this elite kind of reproduced itself in the canoe.

1506
01:32:22,280 --> 01:32:27,479
Speaker 1: Who is out being the canoe is the current National

1507
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:34,879
Speaker 1: Union is a democratic movement. But you know, our elites

1508
01:32:34,960 --> 01:32:39,400
Speaker 1: tend to reproduce themselves. And so most of the leadership,

1509
01:32:40,200 --> 01:32:44,200
Speaker 1: let's say, of the Karen National Union and the current

1510
01:32:44,439 --> 01:32:55,839
Speaker 1: National Liberation Army was Christian like. And so the Burmese Junta,

1511
01:32:56,280 --> 01:33:03,880
Speaker 1: the Burmese military government UH, decided to use this to

1512
01:33:04,360 --> 01:33:09,439
Speaker 1: create a wedge between between the Karen Christians and the

1513
01:33:09,880 --> 01:33:17,360
Speaker 1: Karen Buddhists UH and sent monks to say, agitate and

1514
01:33:18,120 --> 01:33:22,720
Speaker 1: try to cause this split on religious grounds no UH,

1515
01:33:23,160 --> 01:33:27,439
Speaker 1: and they succeeded in parts and succeeded to to separate

1516
01:33:27,960 --> 01:33:34,360
Speaker 1: a part of Karen Buddhists that created the democratic Karen

1517
01:33:34,520 --> 01:33:42,320
Speaker 1: Buddhists Army, which then allied themselves, of course to the

1518
01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:48,880
Speaker 1: to the junta and to h to attack the to

1519
01:33:49,040 --> 01:33:52,200
Speaker 1: attack the kind of and the manner of flow, which

1520
01:33:52,400 --> 01:33:55,200
Speaker 1: of course they knew all the all the words there

1521
01:33:55,240 --> 01:33:59,719
Speaker 1: on the defenses and where was the defense situated, et cetera,

1522
01:34:00,439 --> 01:34:05,000
Speaker 1: and succeeded in destroying the capital of the Canon National

1523
01:34:05,160 --> 01:34:11,040
Speaker 1: Union in Manaplo. In So that was the situation pretty

1524
01:34:11,120 --> 01:34:19,200
Speaker 1: much when I arrived. It was pretty like there was

1525
01:34:19,320 --> 01:34:24,560
Speaker 1: not so much territory anymore held by the Callen. And

1526
01:34:24,720 --> 01:34:28,799
Speaker 1: more more importantly, they lost a lot of income because

1527
01:34:29,040 --> 01:34:32,040
Speaker 1: a lot of their income come from a tax at

1528
01:34:32,200 --> 01:34:37,559
Speaker 1: the border that they can control, you know. Uh So, yeah,

1529
01:34:37,720 --> 01:34:40,479
Speaker 1: that was the situation. Not every e a O has

1530
01:34:40,520 --> 01:34:43,960
Speaker 1: embraced the National Unity Government directly, after all, many of

1531
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:47,520
Speaker 1: its members were enthusiastically running cover for the Rohinga genocide

1532
01:34:47,520 --> 01:34:50,960
Speaker 1: a few years ago. Many of the eos remain technically

1533
01:34:51,040 --> 01:34:53,280
Speaker 1: under a ceasefire with the top Medon, and the top

1534
01:34:53,320 --> 01:34:56,559
Speaker 1: Meadon knows that if it pushes too far into EO territory,

1535
01:34:56,960 --> 01:35:00,920
Speaker 1: it risks provoking a full blown response. The a O s, meanwhile,

1536
01:35:01,040 --> 01:35:03,639
Speaker 1: have been aiding and training the PDF and still maintaining

1537
01:35:03,800 --> 01:35:07,040
Speaker 1: enough deniability that Natapmada has not been forced into a

1538
01:35:07,120 --> 01:35:11,919
Speaker 1: confrontation e a O PDF. Alliances look different in different regions,

1539
01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:15,040
Speaker 1: and often realities on the ground bear little relationship to

1540
01:35:15,120 --> 01:35:18,320
Speaker 1: the back door diplomacy and official stances embraced by leadership

1541
01:35:18,360 --> 01:35:21,160
Speaker 1: and public The war continues to have a huge toll

1542
01:35:21,240 --> 01:35:24,760
Speaker 1: on civilians, According to the United Nations, in total, some

1543
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:27,679
Speaker 1: four hundred and forty thousand people have been newly displaced

1544
01:35:27,960 --> 01:35:31,640
Speaker 1: since the coup happened in February one, adding to an

1545
01:35:31,680 --> 01:35:34,559
Speaker 1: existing three hundred and seventy thousand who had fled their

1546
01:35:34,600 --> 01:35:37,759
Speaker 1: homes from earlier waves of violence and over a million

1547
01:35:37,840 --> 01:35:41,479
Speaker 1: people who had fled the Regina genocide. More than half

1548
01:35:41,520 --> 01:35:47,080
Speaker 1: the population of Corenni State has fled. Humanitarian access is hard.

1549
01:35:47,760 --> 01:35:50,719
Speaker 1: Much of the relief effort for displaced people occurs within

1550
01:35:50,880 --> 01:35:55,599
Speaker 1: local communities. Thousands of refugees at camp along the border

1551
01:35:55,640 --> 01:36:00,439
Speaker 1: with Thailand, which is defined by rivers. Initially, many people

1552
01:36:00,439 --> 01:36:03,960
Speaker 1: fled into Thailand, but terrible conditions in refugee camps led

1553
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:07,559
Speaker 1: some of them to return to Myanmar. Now they wade

1554
01:36:07,560 --> 01:36:10,960
Speaker 1: across the river for international aid donations of food and water,

1555
01:36:11,520 --> 01:36:13,719
Speaker 1: but they can't bring themselves to stay in the crowded

1556
01:36:13,760 --> 01:36:16,720
Speaker 1: camps overnight, so they wade back to sleep on the

1557
01:36:16,800 --> 01:36:20,960
Speaker 1: Burmese side of the bank. The UNHCR, the High Commission

1558
01:36:21,000 --> 01:36:23,799
Speaker 1: on Refugees, it's been unable to access camps in Thailand

1559
01:36:24,200 --> 01:36:27,120
Speaker 1: or My and ma to check on the conditions. But

1560
01:36:27,240 --> 01:36:29,919
Speaker 1: it has urged the Thaire government, which has been incredibly

1561
01:36:29,920 --> 01:36:32,840
Speaker 1: accused of forcing people back across the border, to move

1562
01:36:32,880 --> 01:36:35,880
Speaker 1: people to better conditions further into Thailand instead of keeping

1563
01:36:35,920 --> 01:36:38,360
Speaker 1: them in camps near the border. And here we find

1564
01:36:38,400 --> 01:36:41,400
Speaker 1: the unfortunate, unavoidable reality of the civil war in Mi

1565
01:36:41,520 --> 01:36:44,719
Speaker 1: and Maa. For all the uniqueness of aspects of the conflict,

1566
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:47,920
Speaker 1: the innovative ways of gen Z militias have interfaced with

1567
01:36:48,040 --> 01:36:51,320
Speaker 1: older ethnic military forces, the three D printed arms, et cetera.

1568
01:36:51,960 --> 01:36:53,599
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, this is another brutal,

1569
01:36:54,120 --> 01:36:56,720
Speaker 1: horrific conflict between large numbers of people who want to

1570
01:36:56,760 --> 01:36:59,519
Speaker 1: be free and a small number of people who want

1571
01:36:59,560 --> 01:37:03,479
Speaker 1: to control them. From me and Marto our media, Ukraine

1572
01:37:03,520 --> 01:37:08,200
Speaker 1: to Syria, Ethiopia, to Iraq and beyond. The novelty is

1573
01:37:08,240 --> 01:37:10,880
Speaker 1: the twenty one century conflict. Don't change the fact that

1574
01:37:11,000 --> 01:37:13,200
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, each war brings with

1575
01:37:13,320 --> 01:37:15,599
Speaker 1: it what might be the truest symbol of our current age,

1576
01:37:16,280 --> 01:37:19,679
Speaker 1: parents saying goodbye to their kids, camps filled with deathperate

1577
01:37:19,720 --> 01:37:23,240
Speaker 1: people fleeing violence, and government's all over the world willing

1578
01:37:23,280 --> 01:37:26,200
Speaker 1: to send nothing more than kind words and stern warnings.

1579
01:37:28,560 --> 01:37:32,920
Speaker 1: This is a PostScript to episode four. It's not one

1580
01:37:33,040 --> 01:37:35,559
Speaker 1: that we've been intending to record, because it's not news

1581
01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:39,720
Speaker 1: that we'd ever hoped to have to share, but here

1582
01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:44,000
Speaker 1: we are. Unfortunately, we found out that about ten days

1583
01:37:44,040 --> 01:37:47,040
Speaker 1: after we last spoken, a couple of weeks before we

1584
01:37:47,160 --> 01:37:52,719
Speaker 1: released our podcast, Zor died. And he died in battle

1585
01:37:52,840 --> 01:37:59,080
Speaker 1: fighting with the top my door. He's really was, I suppose,

1586
01:38:00,640 --> 01:38:05,720
Speaker 1: an amazingly brave and courageous young man and Um. I

1587
01:38:05,840 --> 01:38:10,480
Speaker 1: think that his loss is one that reflects the realities

1588
01:38:10,560 --> 01:38:16,200
Speaker 1: of of what war is, which is not great and

1589
01:38:16,320 --> 01:38:21,800
Speaker 1: glorious and exciting. It's young men and sometimes young women,

1590
01:38:23,520 --> 01:38:28,640
Speaker 1: young non binary folks. I imagine too, um dying when

1591
01:38:28,720 --> 01:38:30,880
Speaker 1: they had no quarrel with anyone, when they just wanted

1592
01:38:30,880 --> 01:38:34,960
Speaker 1: to live their lives. Two years ago, a year and

1593
01:38:35,000 --> 01:38:38,280
Speaker 1: a half ago, even he was just loving the people

1594
01:38:38,360 --> 01:38:43,160
Speaker 1: he loved having fun, being a kid, riding his motorcycle,

1595
01:38:43,240 --> 01:38:47,760
Speaker 1: speaking to his girlfriend on his phone, living a happy life.

1596
01:38:47,920 --> 01:38:51,320
Speaker 1: And then someone who had power decided that they wanted

1597
01:38:51,320 --> 01:38:53,280
Speaker 1: to have more power, and they decided that it didn't

1598
01:38:53,360 --> 01:38:57,680
Speaker 1: matter how many kids had to die so they could

1599
01:38:57,720 --> 01:39:01,439
Speaker 1: have what they want. And he decided to say no

1600
01:39:01,600 --> 01:39:03,680
Speaker 1: to that. And that's brave, and I think all of

1601
01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:07,080
Speaker 1: us would agree that what he did was right and

1602
01:39:07,200 --> 01:39:12,120
Speaker 1: morally courageous, and that that we would hope to be

1603
01:39:12,200 --> 01:39:14,080
Speaker 1: brave enough to do the same if the same thing

1604
01:39:14,200 --> 01:39:19,160
Speaker 1: happened to us. This one's hit me quite hard, honestly.

1605
01:39:20,040 --> 01:39:21,840
Speaker 1: I know this is my job, and it's happens, that's

1606
01:39:21,840 --> 01:39:25,080
Speaker 1: happened before and it will happen again. But he was

1607
01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:28,880
Speaker 1: such a happy, polite, kind young man. He never didn't

1608
01:39:28,880 --> 01:39:33,280
Speaker 1: pick up the phone, He never got tired of explaining

1609
01:39:33,360 --> 01:39:40,000
Speaker 1: stuff that we didn't understand, and he always answered our questions.

1610
01:39:40,040 --> 01:39:42,640
Speaker 1: There was nothing that was off the table. There was

1611
01:39:42,680 --> 01:39:45,160
Speaker 1: nothing that he wouldn't talk about with us. He was

1612
01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:51,800
Speaker 1: completely open, And yeah, we will miss him greatly. He

1613
01:39:51,960 --> 01:39:58,880
Speaker 1: died fighting the thing that we all have to fight, right, fascism, dictatorship, totalitarianism,

1614
01:39:59,640 --> 01:40:07,400
Speaker 1: military horization, and yeah, we'll will grieve his loss. Both

1615
01:40:07,520 --> 01:40:09,680
Speaker 1: Robert and I. We've just spoken on the phone and

1616
01:40:10,080 --> 01:40:12,240
Speaker 1: we found out because of contact of mine on the

1617
01:40:12,360 --> 01:40:15,240
Speaker 1: ground sent me a Reddit message with a link to

1618
01:40:15,320 --> 01:40:18,400
Speaker 1: a Facebook post and it's very clearly zorin no doubt

1619
01:40:18,400 --> 01:40:23,160
Speaker 1: about that it names him, and unfortunately it also shows

1620
01:40:24,120 --> 01:40:28,519
Speaker 1: him dead. So we were not in any doubt that

1621
01:40:28,600 --> 01:40:31,760
Speaker 1: it was him who died, and we're not in any

1622
01:40:31,800 --> 01:40:35,960
Speaker 1: doubt that we will gravely miss him either. We both

1623
01:40:36,040 --> 01:40:39,000
Speaker 1: hoped to go over and record with him, to speak

1624
01:40:39,040 --> 01:40:42,240
Speaker 1: with him, to meet him. I've spoken to him several

1625
01:40:42,320 --> 01:40:46,160
Speaker 1: times on video, sometimes just to chat, not even to

1626
01:40:46,880 --> 01:40:49,240
Speaker 1: to record anything, just just to chat, just to catch

1627
01:40:49,360 --> 01:40:52,880
Speaker 1: up and and look at what each of us was

1628
01:40:52,960 --> 01:40:58,360
Speaker 1: doing that day. So it's a hard loss for me

1629
01:40:59,320 --> 01:41:03,160
Speaker 1: and for Robert too. As I said, we've just spoken. Um,

1630
01:41:03,800 --> 01:41:07,600
Speaker 1: so yeah, that's the news that we hadn't hoped to

1631
01:41:07,760 --> 01:41:09,920
Speaker 1: end on. Obviously, though, this is the reality of war,

1632
01:41:10,000 --> 01:41:12,760
Speaker 1: and as the world is looking at the conflict in

1633
01:41:12,920 --> 01:41:16,640
Speaker 1: Ukraine now, I'd urge you too to look at the

1634
01:41:16,680 --> 01:41:22,559
Speaker 1: conflict in Myanmar. To another Russian bomb killed, another nice

1635
01:41:22,880 --> 01:41:26,360
Speaker 1: kid who never had any quarrel with anyone, who just

1636
01:41:26,439 --> 01:41:29,360
Speaker 1: wanted to live his life and I didn't want to

1637
01:41:29,400 --> 01:41:31,040
Speaker 1: live the rest of his life with a boot on

1638
01:41:31,080 --> 01:41:34,439
Speaker 1: his neck, and so he decided to stand up against it.

1639
01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:38,400
Speaker 1: As you can probably hear my voice, I'm quite upset

1640
01:41:39,000 --> 01:41:44,680
Speaker 1: by by his loss and will be probably for a

1641
01:41:44,760 --> 01:41:47,600
Speaker 1: few days. So I'm sorry to have to end this

1642
01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:51,920
Speaker 1: podcast on such a sad note. I'm sorry for his

1643
01:41:52,160 --> 01:41:55,080
Speaker 1: family who are now caught between the loss of their

1644
01:41:55,200 --> 01:42:00,360
Speaker 1: son and trying to protect their daughters. I'm sorry for

1645
01:42:00,439 --> 01:42:04,479
Speaker 1: his girlfriend, who's dealing with shrapnel in her own leg

1646
01:42:04,520 --> 01:42:07,360
Speaker 1: and now the loss of the person she loved. And

1647
01:42:07,479 --> 01:42:09,920
Speaker 1: I'm sorry for his comrades. And they've said they'll go

1648
01:42:10,000 --> 01:42:12,679
Speaker 1: on fighting, and I hope they do. And I don't

1649
01:42:12,680 --> 01:42:15,320
Speaker 1: think there's any point really pretending to be objective at

1650
01:42:15,360 --> 01:42:18,000
Speaker 1: this stage in the games, and I hope they win, um,

1651
01:42:19,479 --> 01:42:24,760
Speaker 1: But I mostly just hope that like one day, young

1652
01:42:25,080 --> 01:42:29,639
Speaker 1: men and women and everyone else just gets to live

1653
01:42:29,720 --> 01:42:34,200
Speaker 1: their lives without having to kill and die, because ultimately,

1654
01:42:35,560 --> 01:42:37,840
Speaker 1: no one should have to and no parents should have

1655
01:42:37,880 --> 01:42:42,280
Speaker 1: to bury their kids. So yeah, as much as we're

1656
01:42:42,280 --> 01:42:44,679
Speaker 1: all focusing on Ukraine and what's happening there is terrible,

1657
01:42:44,720 --> 01:42:48,360
Speaker 1: Please don't forget Zoro his comrades. Please don't forget his legacy,

1658
01:42:49,840 --> 01:42:53,840
Speaker 1: and please don't forget him. We won't and we obviously

1659
01:42:53,880 --> 01:42:56,720
Speaker 1: want to dedicate this podcast to him and what he

1660
01:42:56,800 --> 01:43:09,639
Speaker 1: stood for. So yeah, he's sending a message anyone anywhere

1661
01:43:09,720 --> 01:43:12,599
Speaker 1: in the world, I can get you and it will hurt.

1662
01:43:13,920 --> 01:43:16,960
Speaker 1: It was a plot straight out of James Bond, an

1663
01:43:17,000 --> 01:43:21,000
Speaker 1: assassination carried out with the world's most toxic chemical weapon.

1664
01:43:21,600 --> 01:43:25,360
Speaker 1: The victim was Kim Jong Nam. He was the firstborn

1665
01:43:25,520 --> 01:43:29,040
Speaker 1: son of North Korea's supreme leader. He should have been

1666
01:43:29,080 --> 01:43:32,560
Speaker 1: a successor. Instead, he'd be murdered in one of the

1667
01:43:32,640 --> 01:43:37,120
Speaker 1: most brazen and bizarre political plots of all time. Join

1668
01:43:37,280 --> 01:43:40,799
Speaker 1: us as we investigate the potential motives. Kim Dragon actually

1669
01:43:40,920 --> 01:43:45,880
Speaker 1: had several reasons for wanting to assassinate his older brother,

1670
01:43:46,200 --> 01:43:49,719
Speaker 1: the family backstabbing. There's a lot of clothing and dagger

1671
01:43:50,280 --> 01:43:55,120
Speaker 1: stuff about Jim John and the petty paranoia in North Korea.

1672
01:43:55,560 --> 01:44:00,280
Speaker 1: When somebody challenges you, that challenger must be and eight

1673
01:44:00,760 --> 01:44:04,479
Speaker 1: behind the most audacious assassination of the twenty one century.

1674
01:44:04,880 --> 01:44:07,160
Speaker 1: Listen to Big Brother on the I Heart Radio app,

1675
01:44:07,360 --> 01:44:10,640
Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Have you

1676
01:44:10,640 --> 01:44:12,720
Speaker 1: ever felt depressed about work only to have your dad

1677
01:44:12,800 --> 01:44:14,559
Speaker 1: be like, why you're so down? So you told him

1678
01:44:14,600 --> 01:44:16,240
Speaker 1: you hate your job and he said, well, you better

1679
01:44:16,320 --> 01:44:18,280
Speaker 1: talk yourself out of it. And then you thought, hmm,

1680
01:44:18,280 --> 01:44:20,439
Speaker 1: I love to talk. I could host a podcast. And

1681
01:44:20,520 --> 01:44:22,400
Speaker 1: then you went to Speaker from my Heart and started

1682
01:44:22,439 --> 01:44:24,600
Speaker 1: a podcast and got good at it, then monetized it,

1683
01:44:24,640 --> 01:44:26,720
Speaker 1: then quit your boring job and told your dad thanks

1684
01:44:26,720 --> 01:44:28,200
Speaker 1: for the advice. And he was like, well, that's not

1685
01:44:28,280 --> 01:44:30,519
Speaker 1: what I meant, and I don't understand what a podcast is.

1686
01:44:30,640 --> 01:44:33,200
Speaker 1: But you seem happy, So that's great, kiddo. You ever

1687
01:44:33,280 --> 01:44:36,920
Speaker 1: do that? Well, you could at speaker dot com. That's

1688
01:44:37,080 --> 01:44:40,160
Speaker 1: spr e A k E R. Ask your dad you

1689
01:44:40,280 --> 01:44:43,920
Speaker 1: actually don't. If I could be you and you could

1690
01:44:43,960 --> 01:44:46,400
Speaker 1: be me for just one hour, if you could find

1691
01:44:46,479 --> 01:44:50,080
Speaker 1: a way to get inside each other's mind, walk a

1692
01:44:50,200 --> 01:44:55,000
Speaker 1: mile in my shoes, wacome mile in my shoes shoes.

1693
01:44:55,400 --> 01:44:58,599
Speaker 1: We've all felt left out, and for some that feeling

1694
01:44:58,680 --> 01:45:02,160
Speaker 1: lasts more than a moment. We can change that learn

1695
01:45:02,240 --> 01:45:04,920
Speaker 1: how it Belonging begins with us dot org, brought to

1696
01:45:05,000 --> 01:45:17,760
Speaker 1: you by the ad Council. Welcome out of us, Oh,

1697
01:45:18,200 --> 01:45:22,040
Speaker 1: welcome to it. Could happen here. I'm Robert Evans, recording

1698
01:45:22,160 --> 01:45:26,320
Speaker 1: from a deeply unsettling airbnb right near the border of

1699
01:45:26,439 --> 01:45:29,840
Speaker 1: Texas and Mexico. UM. I'm here with my good friend

1700
01:45:30,080 --> 01:45:34,400
Speaker 1: James Stout. Say hello to the people. Hi everyone, and

1701
01:45:34,439 --> 01:45:38,080
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about well, let me let me introduce briefly.

1702
01:45:38,200 --> 01:45:40,920
Speaker 1: You'll you'll see the episodes soon enough. We're down here

1703
01:45:41,040 --> 01:45:46,040
Speaker 1: reporting on um a mixture of of of right wing militancy,

1704
01:45:46,960 --> 01:45:50,679
Speaker 1: government militarization of the border, and the attempts by people

1705
01:45:50,760 --> 01:45:54,960
Speaker 1: trapped in the middle to survive and avoid those authoritarian structures.

1706
01:45:55,400 --> 01:45:59,439
Speaker 1: So today, James and they're going to talk about molotov cocktails. Um.

1707
01:45:59,760 --> 01:46:03,080
Speaker 1: But first, James, you want to talk about this airbnb.

1708
01:46:03,200 --> 01:46:06,240
Speaker 1: We're in for a second because you book this motherfucker deeply.

1709
01:46:06,560 --> 01:46:09,840
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah. So what happens when you have like

1710
01:46:10,000 --> 01:46:11,960
Speaker 1: less than twenty four hours before you arrive and need

1711
01:46:12,040 --> 01:46:15,840
Speaker 1: a place for more than two people is uh, you

1712
01:46:15,920 --> 01:46:18,120
Speaker 1: really get into the depth of Airbnb. And I've found

1713
01:46:18,200 --> 01:46:24,080
Speaker 1: this place which how to describe it? Um? Yeah, yeah, unsettling?

1714
01:46:24,240 --> 01:46:29,280
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, it it just feels wrong. I can't put

1715
01:46:29,360 --> 01:46:31,720
Speaker 1: my finger quite on where there is a basement which

1716
01:46:31,800 --> 01:46:35,600
Speaker 1: definitely has like murder vibes, and there's not basements in

1717
01:46:35,720 --> 01:46:39,240
Speaker 1: Texas normally, and it's it's it's crumbling and unsettling. There's

1718
01:46:39,280 --> 01:46:42,200
Speaker 1: a some pump that doesn't appear connected to anything. There's

1719
01:46:42,200 --> 01:46:45,920
Speaker 1: puddles of standing water. Um. I think there's like nine

1720
01:46:46,000 --> 01:46:49,880
Speaker 1: bedrooms in this house. Yeah, but only one like is upstairs,

1721
01:46:51,040 --> 01:46:53,240
Speaker 1: and it seems to have like like to be designed

1722
01:46:53,280 --> 01:46:57,120
Speaker 1: to command an arc of fire around the house. Then

1723
01:46:57,160 --> 01:46:59,360
Speaker 1: there are other bedrooms which are like kind of in

1724
01:46:59,479 --> 01:47:03,640
Speaker 1: this stable block. What else is weird? Like three of

1725
01:47:03,760 --> 01:47:06,360
Speaker 1: the bedrooms are separate from the main house and in

1726
01:47:06,439 --> 01:47:08,040
Speaker 1: a built in a way that it looks like a

1727
01:47:08,160 --> 01:47:11,360
Speaker 1: roadside motel. And then there's a main house that has

1728
01:47:11,439 --> 01:47:14,920
Speaker 1: like four living rooms for We're sitting at a large

1729
01:47:15,000 --> 01:47:18,400
Speaker 1: kitchen table right now, which spins around a central access.

1730
01:47:18,479 --> 01:47:23,200
Speaker 1: For some inexplicable reason, we have the overwhelming feeling that

1731
01:47:23,400 --> 01:47:26,160
Speaker 1: something horribly wrong was done in this space because it

1732
01:47:26,200 --> 01:47:29,640
Speaker 1: doesn't everything is a little off. None of the decorations

1733
01:47:29,720 --> 01:47:31,960
Speaker 1: look like people. This is some sort of trap house,

1734
01:47:32,040 --> 01:47:36,679
Speaker 1: but we cannot identify the kind. I think you describe

1735
01:47:36,680 --> 01:47:38,760
Speaker 1: it best when you said it's like one of those

1736
01:47:38,880 --> 01:47:41,240
Speaker 1: this person does not exist photos, but of a home

1737
01:47:41,360 --> 01:47:43,439
Speaker 1: and you can't work out what's wrong. But it's not

1738
01:47:43,640 --> 01:47:45,439
Speaker 1: human and it's not right. So we just had to

1739
01:47:45,479 --> 01:47:47,559
Speaker 1: get that out of our systems because it's been deeply

1740
01:47:47,640 --> 01:47:50,120
Speaker 1: unsettling the last couple of days. We're here now, James,

1741
01:47:51,840 --> 01:47:54,920
Speaker 1: you wrote an article about Molotov cocktails that got you

1742
01:47:55,240 --> 01:47:57,800
Speaker 1: in a bit of a fascinating situation. I want to

1743
01:47:57,880 --> 01:48:00,200
Speaker 1: just kind of walk me through what happened there and

1744
01:48:00,280 --> 01:48:02,919
Speaker 1: what the fallout was. Yeah, well, the one that started

1745
01:48:02,960 --> 01:48:05,560
Speaker 1: it was about how to tear down statues, and that

1746
01:48:05,640 --> 01:48:08,360
Speaker 1: was for Popular Mechanics. In In that article, I interviewed

1747
01:48:08,400 --> 01:48:10,720
Speaker 1: a couple of experts and one of them explained how

1748
01:48:10,760 --> 01:48:15,120
Speaker 1: to make something called thermite. Thermitees like an exo thermic reaction,

1749
01:48:15,120 --> 01:48:17,160
Speaker 1: and you mix a couple of things, they get hot,

1750
01:48:17,400 --> 01:48:19,160
Speaker 1: They get hot enough to melt some metal. So if

1751
01:48:19,200 --> 01:48:22,920
Speaker 1: you were interested in bringing down a statue of a bigot,

1752
01:48:23,320 --> 01:48:25,439
Speaker 1: that might be helpful to you. By the way, it's

1753
01:48:25,520 --> 01:48:28,439
Speaker 1: legal basically all of the US to possess thermite and

1754
01:48:28,760 --> 01:48:31,760
Speaker 1: pretty simple to make. Not that you know, you can

1755
01:48:31,800 --> 01:48:33,920
Speaker 1: google it. You can figure that out yourself. Yeah, I'm

1756
01:48:33,920 --> 01:48:35,360
Speaker 1: not telling you how to make it. I'm telling you

1757
01:48:35,479 --> 01:48:39,160
Speaker 1: that it exists, exists, and is surprisingly legal. Yes, and

1758
01:48:39,240 --> 01:48:41,439
Speaker 1: if you need to weld some ship underwater or join

1759
01:48:41,479 --> 01:48:44,240
Speaker 1: together some train tracks, it's the right tool for the job. Yeah.

1760
01:48:44,320 --> 01:48:46,240
Speaker 1: If you happen to be I know a lot of

1761
01:48:46,320 --> 01:48:49,200
Speaker 1: the Russian Army in Ukraine listens to this podcast. If

1762
01:48:49,240 --> 01:48:51,400
Speaker 1: you happen to be in the process of abandoning hundreds

1763
01:48:51,400 --> 01:48:53,840
Speaker 1: of millions of dollars in armor, thermite can allow you

1764
01:48:53,960 --> 01:48:58,320
Speaker 1: to stop Ukrainian farmers from towing it back to their homes. Yeah,

1765
01:48:58,800 --> 01:49:02,280
Speaker 1: but don't do that if you're a soldier. Just just run, um,

1766
01:49:02,560 --> 01:49:04,200
Speaker 1: go to the Ukrainians. I'll let you call your mom.

1767
01:49:04,240 --> 01:49:08,120
Speaker 1: They're nice. Um. Okay. So I write the story for

1768
01:49:08,200 --> 01:49:11,760
Speaker 1: Pop Mac Right. It's just a useful guide to people

1769
01:49:11,760 --> 01:49:14,640
Speaker 1: who are looking to safely dispose of a racist statue. Right.

1770
01:49:15,280 --> 01:49:20,559
Speaker 1: And when I write it, I think their readership might

1771
01:49:20,680 --> 01:49:23,560
Speaker 1: lean pretty conservative, or they felt like that was a

1772
01:49:23,600 --> 01:49:29,760
Speaker 1: safe space. Anyway. It immediately became like the epicenter of

1773
01:49:29,800 --> 01:49:33,559
Speaker 1: the culture War for like a week, including triggering one

1774
01:49:33,800 --> 01:49:39,519
Speaker 1: Benjamin Shapiro, who then sub tweeted me like a coward

1775
01:49:40,320 --> 01:49:44,640
Speaker 1: and asked when I'll be writing my story about Molotov cocktails,

1776
01:49:45,880 --> 01:49:48,400
Speaker 1: which I subsequently wrote. So that that gets us to

1777
01:49:48,439 --> 01:49:51,320
Speaker 1: the Molotov cocktail story. I was in Russia today as well,

1778
01:49:51,840 --> 01:49:56,600
Speaker 1: now band media outlet no no no. I wrote it

1779
01:49:56,680 --> 01:50:00,400
Speaker 1: for a British magazine called Huck. I just I've like

1780
01:50:00,800 --> 01:50:04,799
Speaker 1: Huck is like like Vice but less tragic, like device

1781
01:50:04,880 --> 01:50:09,000
Speaker 1: went bad, Hu Hut school um, And so yeah, Ben

1782
01:50:09,120 --> 01:50:12,559
Speaker 1: Ben was upset. Ben orchestrated this kind of right wing

1783
01:50:12,680 --> 01:50:15,920
Speaker 1: panic around the story. Uh, they canceled pop mac for

1784
01:50:15,960 --> 01:50:20,240
Speaker 1: a while. And I wrote a piece about the history

1785
01:50:20,520 --> 01:50:24,639
Speaker 1: and I guess chemistry of molota and they're rolling democratization movements.

1786
01:50:24,720 --> 01:50:26,600
Speaker 1: That was really fascinating to me. So yeah, that's how

1787
01:50:26,640 --> 01:50:29,439
Speaker 1: we got to the Molotov story. And you want to

1788
01:50:29,479 --> 01:50:31,880
Speaker 1: give me kind of some cliffs notes on the history

1789
01:50:31,880 --> 01:50:33,519
Speaker 1: of the Molotov and it's rolling because what I know

1790
01:50:33,560 --> 01:50:37,080
Speaker 1: about Molotov cocktails, I assume it's named after Molotov, of

1791
01:50:37,160 --> 01:50:41,040
Speaker 1: the Molotov ribbon trop packed right, the slav Molotov. Yeah, um,

1792
01:50:41,560 --> 01:50:43,760
Speaker 1: And I know I have been near a couple of

1793
01:50:43,880 --> 01:50:46,360
Speaker 1: them going off. I nearly got lit on fire by one,

1794
01:50:46,400 --> 01:50:48,759
Speaker 1: and I watched a colleague get let on fire by another.

1795
01:50:48,800 --> 01:50:53,360
Speaker 1: So I am aware of what they do. Um. But yeah,

1796
01:50:53,400 --> 01:50:54,960
Speaker 1: why don't you walk us through kind of the close

1797
01:50:55,040 --> 01:50:58,280
Speaker 1: notes of the history of molotovs. Yeah, absolutely, so. Um,

1798
01:50:58,600 --> 01:51:00,519
Speaker 1: A lot of times you're going the Internet and you're

1799
01:51:00,520 --> 01:51:02,080
Speaker 1: readingthing about history and it will turn out not to

1800
01:51:02,120 --> 01:51:05,880
Speaker 1: be right, and that that's often the case of Molotov cocktails. So, yes,

1801
01:51:06,040 --> 01:51:09,680
Speaker 1: they're named after the love Molotov. We can get to

1802
01:51:09,760 --> 01:51:12,559
Speaker 1: why they're named that way in a second. But they

1803
01:51:12,760 --> 01:51:18,439
Speaker 1: their origin is actually with Franco's nationalist fascist, national fascists,

1804
01:51:18,439 --> 01:51:20,600
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call them, national Catholic troops in

1805
01:51:20,640 --> 01:51:23,759
Speaker 1: the Spanish Civil War. So early on in the Spanish

1806
01:51:23,800 --> 01:51:27,800
Speaker 1: Civil War nineteen thirties seven ish, the Republic had some

1807
01:51:28,200 --> 01:51:32,480
Speaker 1: Soviet tanks and they were using these against the At Fentybro.

1808
01:51:32,680 --> 01:51:34,920
Speaker 1: They were using these against the nationalists, and nationalists were

1809
01:51:34,960 --> 01:51:37,280
Speaker 1: throwing what they then called petrol bombs at the tanks

1810
01:51:37,760 --> 01:51:41,400
Speaker 1: too great effect. Those old tanks had rubber on the

1811
01:51:41,479 --> 01:51:44,160
Speaker 1: wheels that turned the tracks and those would melt. Um.

1812
01:51:44,320 --> 01:51:46,559
Speaker 1: So that's when they were first used. And if you're

1813
01:51:46,560 --> 01:51:49,519
Speaker 1: not familiar with what a Molotov cocktail is, it's an

1814
01:51:49,560 --> 01:51:53,960
Speaker 1: improvised incendiary device. It's a glass thing filled with a

1815
01:51:54,000 --> 01:51:57,439
Speaker 1: flammable thing topped with some kind of cloth with a

1816
01:51:57,560 --> 01:52:00,840
Speaker 1: flame that the goth is burning. And when you throw it,

1817
01:52:01,040 --> 01:52:04,000
Speaker 1: obviously the glass thing breaks, the flammable liquid comes out,

1818
01:52:04,439 --> 01:52:07,280
Speaker 1: and the flame catches a liquid and you have a fireball.

1819
01:52:08,600 --> 01:52:11,600
Speaker 1: So the first time we kind of see them is

1820
01:52:11,680 --> 01:52:13,639
Speaker 1: used it in the Spanish and war. We see references

1821
01:52:13,680 --> 01:52:16,360
Speaker 1: to them in like British media in the nineteen thirties

1822
01:52:16,400 --> 01:52:19,360
Speaker 1: when British reporters were going out to watch the Spanish

1823
01:52:19,360 --> 01:52:21,919
Speaker 1: Civil War and they were like, Wow, what a development,

1824
01:52:21,960 --> 01:52:25,559
Speaker 1: what a technology, and so they used there. But where

1825
01:52:25,560 --> 01:52:28,559
Speaker 1: they get their names in Finland, right when the Soviets

1826
01:52:28,600 --> 01:52:32,640
Speaker 1: invade Finland. Why they got their name is that Molotov

1827
01:52:32,800 --> 01:52:36,479
Speaker 1: claimed that his planes were not dropping bombs. You'll see

1828
01:52:36,560 --> 01:52:38,559
Speaker 1: like a history of gas lighting in Russian foreign pol

1829
01:52:38,640 --> 01:52:41,559
Speaker 1: or Soviet foreign policy here. Um he claimed they weren't

1830
01:52:41,600 --> 01:52:45,320
Speaker 1: dropping bombs. He claimed that they were bringing aid to

1831
01:52:45,439 --> 01:52:48,040
Speaker 1: the people of Finland, right, And Finland was like, this

1832
01:52:48,120 --> 01:52:50,479
Speaker 1: is ridiculous. So they kind of started calling the bombs

1833
01:52:50,640 --> 01:52:54,439
Speaker 1: Molotov's bread baskets, and pretty soon everything that was shipped

1834
01:52:55,160 --> 01:53:00,360
Speaker 1: was associated with Molotovs. Bombers were Molotov's chickens, blackout items

1835
01:53:00,400 --> 01:53:05,360
Speaker 1: for Molotov's curtains, and so the they switched many of

1836
01:53:05,400 --> 01:53:09,360
Speaker 1: their state alcohol factories to making Molotov cocktails, and so

1837
01:53:09,479 --> 01:53:12,080
Speaker 1: they started calling these these petro what work called petrol

1838
01:53:12,120 --> 01:53:15,320
Speaker 1: bombs Molotov cocktails, and that's how the names dug. It

1839
01:53:15,479 --> 01:53:18,040
Speaker 1: is neat that Russia has such a long history of

1840
01:53:18,320 --> 01:53:22,040
Speaker 1: causing other nations to retool their domestic liquor production towards

1841
01:53:22,160 --> 01:53:25,400
Speaker 1: making bombs to throw at Russian soldiers, and like, how

1842
01:53:25,960 --> 01:53:28,240
Speaker 1: what do we now eighty odd years on from from

1843
01:53:28,360 --> 01:53:32,839
Speaker 1: nineteen six seven, Like it's it's not always Russian tanks,

1844
01:53:33,479 --> 01:53:37,840
Speaker 1: but it's nearly always Russian tanks, right like Spain, and

1845
01:53:37,920 --> 01:53:40,240
Speaker 1: the Russian tanks are obviously like in Republic in Spain

1846
01:53:40,439 --> 01:53:47,519
Speaker 1: is much preferable to Franco Finland, Hungary in nineteen fifty six, right, um,

1847
01:53:48,280 --> 01:53:52,439
Speaker 1: and today in Ukraine you see people throwing bottles of

1848
01:53:52,520 --> 01:53:55,320
Speaker 1: petrol with flames on top of Russian tanks. Yeah, they

1849
01:53:55,360 --> 01:53:58,320
Speaker 1: have a long history. Yeah, I mean it's it's among

1850
01:53:58,400 --> 01:54:01,080
Speaker 1: other things like especially if you don't have easy access

1851
01:54:01,120 --> 01:54:04,759
Speaker 1: to firearms and and no access to explosives and stuff,

1852
01:54:04,840 --> 01:54:08,160
Speaker 1: like it's it's not a force equalizer, but it does

1853
01:54:08,200 --> 01:54:12,840
Speaker 1: allow you to to do certain things militarily that that

1854
01:54:13,200 --> 01:54:15,840
Speaker 1: would be harder to do, um if you were like

1855
01:54:15,920 --> 01:54:18,559
Speaker 1: trying to manufacture something a little bit more like it's

1856
01:54:18,560 --> 01:54:21,320
Speaker 1: easier than making a grenade, right, Like, yeah, and it

1857
01:54:21,400 --> 01:54:23,320
Speaker 1: does much more damage than a rock, but it's not

1858
01:54:23,520 --> 01:54:26,000
Speaker 1: much harder to come by for most people. Right. And

1859
01:54:26,439 --> 01:54:28,439
Speaker 1: one really interesting thing I read about them was by

1860
01:54:28,520 --> 01:54:30,720
Speaker 1: this academic who I really like his work. It's called

1861
01:54:30,760 --> 01:54:34,640
Speaker 1: Ali Cadiva, and he's Iranian, and he's looked at like

1862
01:54:34,720 --> 01:54:38,000
Speaker 1: democratization movements all over the world, right, so, how do

1863
01:54:38,080 --> 01:54:43,440
Speaker 1: authoritarian regimes collapse? And his research suggested that like peaceful

1864
01:54:43,600 --> 01:54:47,040
Speaker 1: extreme like extreme like quote unquote peaceful protests tend not

1865
01:54:47,160 --> 01:54:50,280
Speaker 1: to work, and insurgencies hadn't had that high of a

1866
01:54:50,320 --> 01:54:53,320
Speaker 1: success rate. But his paper is called stick, stones and

1867
01:54:53,400 --> 01:54:56,880
Speaker 1: Molotov cocktails, and like his research suggested, like, if you're

1868
01:54:56,920 --> 01:55:00,200
Speaker 1: prepared to do violence against property by hidding it with stick,

1869
01:55:00,240 --> 01:55:02,240
Speaker 1: throwing a stone, throwing a monotor of cocktail, then you

1870
01:55:02,280 --> 01:55:04,760
Speaker 1: are more likely to have success in toppling a regime.

1871
01:55:05,200 --> 01:55:08,040
Speaker 1: So like, because they're accessible to people who don't necessarily

1872
01:55:08,080 --> 01:55:10,960
Speaker 1: have guns, aren't doing insurgencies. They've had this really interesting

1873
01:55:11,120 --> 01:55:15,360
Speaker 1: role in arming nonstate actors or arming liberation movement throughout history.

1874
01:55:16,560 --> 01:55:18,879
Speaker 1: I mean, that's really interesting because it would seem to suggest,

1875
01:55:19,240 --> 01:55:21,920
Speaker 1: like a reading of that paper would seem to suggest that, yeah,

1876
01:55:22,560 --> 01:55:26,200
Speaker 1: it's not so much like being willing to carry out

1877
01:55:26,840 --> 01:55:29,840
Speaker 1: like a militant movement, but being willing to destroy things

1878
01:55:29,920 --> 01:55:32,000
Speaker 1: as one of the primary signs that like you have

1879
01:55:32,080 --> 01:55:34,920
Speaker 1: a chance of actually overthrowing an authoritarian regime is like

1880
01:55:35,040 --> 01:55:39,320
Speaker 1: your your ability to prepare to to do damage, um,

1881
01:55:39,720 --> 01:55:41,680
Speaker 1: like of a financial nature. Like is that kind of

1882
01:55:41,680 --> 01:55:43,840
Speaker 1: the argument is making. I think the argument he's making

1883
01:55:44,000 --> 01:55:45,960
Speaker 1: is that, like, and it's an argument that can't be

1884
01:55:46,000 --> 01:55:48,200
Speaker 1: made enough. Right, the damage to property is not the

1885
01:55:48,240 --> 01:55:51,400
Speaker 1: same as damage to people, and violence against property in

1886
01:55:51,680 --> 01:55:54,600
Speaker 1: the name of liberation or justice is okay and tends

1887
01:55:54,640 --> 01:55:56,800
Speaker 1: to work. And but yeah, you have to have some

1888
01:55:57,000 --> 01:55:58,920
Speaker 1: skin in the game. You have to be prepared to

1889
01:55:59,160 --> 01:56:01,840
Speaker 1: fun some ship up if you if you want to

1890
01:56:01,920 --> 01:56:04,040
Speaker 1: bring down a ratime which is prepared to use violence

1891
01:56:04,040 --> 01:56:07,520
Speaker 1: against you. That's kind of talking about the use of

1892
01:56:07,640 --> 01:56:11,640
Speaker 1: these tools within liberatory struggles, but they're not I guess

1893
01:56:11,640 --> 01:56:14,760
Speaker 1: the liberatory struggles, and I have the beholder that's talking

1894
01:56:14,800 --> 01:56:16,360
Speaker 1: about the use of these tools and kind of like

1895
01:56:17,120 --> 01:56:20,280
Speaker 1: street movements that are agitating for change. But we also

1896
01:56:20,360 --> 01:56:23,600
Speaker 1: have this military history UM, which I think is much

1897
01:56:23,640 --> 01:56:25,840
Speaker 1: more muddled in terms of its actual efficacy as a

1898
01:56:25,960 --> 01:56:28,640
Speaker 1: as a weapon, its ability to deny area, it's ability

1899
01:56:28,680 --> 01:56:34,040
Speaker 1: to destroy UM or damage like enemy uh like combat ability.

1900
01:56:34,120 --> 01:56:35,360
Speaker 1: Do you do you have any kind of sense of

1901
01:56:35,440 --> 01:56:37,240
Speaker 1: like how effective Like we're seeing all these people in

1902
01:56:37,360 --> 01:56:41,240
Speaker 1: Ukraine arming themselves with cocktails UM, evidence of of of

1903
01:56:41,720 --> 01:56:44,160
Speaker 1: you know, the efficacy of these in combat is a

1904
01:56:44,240 --> 01:56:46,880
Speaker 1: lot murkier UM, at least within the present conflict. Do

1905
01:56:46,920 --> 01:56:49,240
Speaker 1: you have a sense of how historically they useful they

1906
01:56:49,280 --> 01:56:51,760
Speaker 1: tend to be for that, Yeah, I think depending on

1907
01:56:51,880 --> 01:56:54,000
Speaker 1: the age of the and and then the type of

1908
01:56:54,040 --> 01:56:57,880
Speaker 1: the vehicle you're attacking. Right, So like these old Russian tanks, UM,

1909
01:56:58,600 --> 01:57:00,240
Speaker 1: what they would do a lot always make something which

1910
01:57:00,280 --> 01:57:02,879
Speaker 1: is not quite what we would see of the Monotov cocktails.

1911
01:57:02,920 --> 01:57:05,520
Speaker 1: I had a whole blanket that was soaked in petrol

1912
01:57:05,600 --> 01:57:07,760
Speaker 1: and that would get caught up in the track and

1913
01:57:07,880 --> 01:57:10,800
Speaker 1: then it would destroy that. There was a bit of

1914
01:57:11,040 --> 01:57:13,840
Speaker 1: rubber on on the wheels interface with the tracks that

1915
01:57:13,880 --> 01:57:16,160
Speaker 1: it would melt and that would immobilize the tank and

1916
01:57:16,280 --> 01:57:19,160
Speaker 1: then folks could swarm it from all angles. That was

1917
01:57:19,240 --> 01:57:22,640
Speaker 1: kind of the move there, and then I think they've

1918
01:57:22,800 --> 01:57:26,240
Speaker 1: been more useful in Ukraine than one might have expected.

1919
01:57:26,360 --> 01:57:30,240
Speaker 1: Because of the nature of some of the Russian military vehicles,

1920
01:57:30,280 --> 01:57:32,320
Speaker 1: they tend to carry their fuel on the outside. They

1921
01:57:32,400 --> 01:57:35,640
Speaker 1: also because of the mud, they'll carry lots of pieces

1922
01:57:35,680 --> 01:57:37,600
Speaker 1: of wood that they can use to put under their

1923
01:57:37,600 --> 01:57:39,600
Speaker 1: wheels like you would you know, like sand ladders on

1924
01:57:39,640 --> 01:57:42,720
Speaker 1: the truck, and so those tend to catch fire more easily.

1925
01:57:42,840 --> 01:57:45,200
Speaker 1: I know the b MPs also have fuel storage on

1926
01:57:45,280 --> 01:57:47,840
Speaker 1: the back door, which is is pretty optimal for if

1927
01:57:47,880 --> 01:57:49,520
Speaker 1: you want to walk up behind someone and set something

1928
01:57:49,560 --> 01:57:52,440
Speaker 1: on fire. So that they've worked pretty well there. In

1929
01:57:52,560 --> 01:57:55,640
Speaker 1: other places, yeah, they seem to be more of annoyance,

1930
01:57:55,840 --> 01:57:58,200
Speaker 1: Like I know, I've spoken to people who have been

1931
01:57:58,400 --> 01:58:00,880
Speaker 1: in the military in the in the UK and like

1932
01:58:00,960 --> 01:58:04,080
Speaker 1: the big thing in Northern Ireland right again right, you

1933
01:58:04,160 --> 01:58:07,120
Speaker 1: have a sort of a liberatory movement there, and so

1934
01:58:07,280 --> 01:58:09,160
Speaker 1: they were very popular, but they didn't seem to do

1935
01:58:09,400 --> 01:58:12,680
Speaker 1: much of them. Cause people distress, cause people personal injury

1936
01:58:12,760 --> 01:58:16,600
Speaker 1: sometimes but not particularly too they weren't game changing in

1937
01:58:16,800 --> 01:58:19,840
Speaker 1: terms of like the monopoly on violence there, but yeah,

1938
01:58:19,840 --> 01:58:21,600
Speaker 1: they seem to be very very I think they're better

1939
01:58:21,640 --> 01:58:23,360
Speaker 1: when you have a ton of people throwing them. I

1940
01:58:23,440 --> 01:58:25,600
Speaker 1: think you have a lot of people setting things on fire,

1941
01:58:25,920 --> 01:58:29,600
Speaker 1: that tends to be it causes people to stop. And

1942
01:58:29,640 --> 01:58:34,480
Speaker 1: I think with Russia being lacking in excellent leadership, it

1943
01:58:34,800 --> 01:58:36,800
Speaker 1: seems like we could say in Ukraine and some of

1944
01:58:36,840 --> 01:58:39,840
Speaker 1: their soldiers maybe lacking in training, and with the fact

1945
01:58:39,880 --> 01:58:42,040
Speaker 1: that they tend to carry fuel externally so their vehicles

1946
01:58:42,080 --> 01:58:45,000
Speaker 1: catch fire. If you can just convince some conscripts that

1947
01:58:45,120 --> 01:58:47,680
Speaker 1: their vehicle is on fire, they are going to get out,

1948
01:58:47,760 --> 01:58:50,120
Speaker 1: run away. And we've seen that a lot, right, a

1949
01:58:50,160 --> 01:58:53,280
Speaker 1: lot of people running away. Yeah. I think when I

1950
01:58:53,320 --> 01:58:56,520
Speaker 1: think about, like outside of military users, where I've seen

1951
01:58:56,680 --> 01:58:59,520
Speaker 1: molotovs be most effective in like the time I've been covering,

1952
01:58:59,600 --> 01:59:01,360
Speaker 1: can't for the first thing that comes up is the

1953
01:59:01,400 --> 01:59:07,320
Speaker 1: Maidan Revolution Ukraine, l where people were throwing some of

1954
01:59:07,360 --> 01:59:10,280
Speaker 1: the same people throwing molotops at Russian troops. Now we're

1955
01:59:10,440 --> 01:59:12,960
Speaker 1: through a mix of throwing by hand and like catapult

1956
01:59:13,040 --> 01:59:15,880
Speaker 1: devices were launching sometimes hundreds of molotovs in a couple

1957
01:59:15,920 --> 01:59:18,240
Speaker 1: of minutes and like melting tank treads to the ground,

1958
01:59:18,360 --> 01:59:22,240
Speaker 1: which is definitely like that's a that's obviously it was effective.

1959
01:59:22,280 --> 01:59:24,720
Speaker 1: It's also almost a different kind of weapons system when

1960
01:59:24,760 --> 01:59:27,640
Speaker 1: you're when you're dealing with that kind of volume grad

1961
01:59:27,840 --> 01:59:32,120
Speaker 1: molotov launcher. Yeah. Yeah, but then I can think about, like,

1962
01:59:32,200 --> 01:59:34,360
Speaker 1: there's this really amazing video that you can find if

1963
01:59:34,400 --> 01:59:40,120
Speaker 1: you look of Greek anarchists on bicycles swarming past a

1964
01:59:40,200 --> 01:59:42,240
Speaker 1: Greek police station and throwing it looked like about a

1965
01:59:42,280 --> 01:59:45,080
Speaker 1: dozen molotovs at once, and and just like sacking a

1966
01:59:45,200 --> 01:59:47,520
Speaker 1: police station that way and then biking right the funk

1967
01:59:47,560 --> 01:59:51,360
Speaker 1: off and like disappearing into the city um, which is

1968
01:59:51,440 --> 01:59:53,840
Speaker 1: which you know, seemed like a more effective tactic than

1969
01:59:53,920 --> 01:59:55,560
Speaker 1: some of the ways I've seen them used, where it's

1970
01:59:55,600 --> 01:59:58,720
Speaker 1: like a person throwing a molotov um and then the

1971
01:59:58,800 --> 02:00:00,880
Speaker 1: cops get really fucking angry, but it doesn't really do

1972
02:00:00,920 --> 02:00:02,560
Speaker 1: that much damage to them, and then people get or

1973
02:00:02,600 --> 02:00:04,800
Speaker 1: they hit the wrong person. Like it is, it is

1974
02:00:04,840 --> 02:00:07,320
Speaker 1: a tool with a high degree of chance for error

1975
02:00:07,320 --> 02:00:09,200
Speaker 1: if you don't know what you're doing. Yeah, it's there's

1976
02:00:09,200 --> 02:00:12,160
Speaker 1: a decent skill requirement. You also really don't want to

1977
02:00:12,200 --> 02:00:15,400
Speaker 1: have like anything flammable on your hands or shirt or

1978
02:00:15,440 --> 02:00:18,800
Speaker 1: anything like that. Like I've seen people really end up

1979
02:00:18,840 --> 02:00:21,520
Speaker 1: badly after trying to make a molotop and just hurting

1980
02:00:21,560 --> 02:00:24,240
Speaker 1: themselves trying to light it or throw it or drop. Yeah,

1981
02:00:24,440 --> 02:00:26,520
Speaker 1: it's it's not. It's not one of those things that

1982
02:00:26,680 --> 02:00:29,720
Speaker 1: like you want to casually suggest people use because the

1983
02:00:29,760 --> 02:00:32,440
Speaker 1: odds of actually injuring yourself with it are pretty high

1984
02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:35,080
Speaker 1: if you're not being careful. Um, and if you if

1985
02:00:35,080 --> 02:00:37,120
Speaker 1: you're going into a situation where you think people might

1986
02:00:37,160 --> 02:00:42,840
Speaker 1: have Molotov's natural fibers. People natural fibers, not synthetics. Yeah,

1987
02:00:42,920 --> 02:00:47,000
Speaker 1: well if your friend welding gloves, your friend like, yeah,

1988
02:00:47,040 --> 02:00:50,600
Speaker 1: you don't want to be caught on fire. So let's

1989
02:00:50,600 --> 02:00:53,400
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about how, like what are the

1990
02:00:53,440 --> 02:00:56,480
Speaker 1: different kinds of constructions of molotops you've seen people using

1991
02:00:56,480 --> 02:00:58,320
Speaker 1: and how they changed over time. You talked a little

1992
02:00:58,360 --> 02:01:00,640
Speaker 1: bit about kind of the early Spanish were like full

1993
02:01:00,720 --> 02:01:03,160
Speaker 1: blankets and stuff. Yeah, I think one of the interests

1994
02:01:03,160 --> 02:01:07,000
Speaker 1: where we go from Spain to to Finland, right where

1995
02:01:07,040 --> 02:01:09,800
Speaker 1: we're seeing the same thing basically petrol or maybe ethanol

1996
02:01:09,880 --> 02:01:12,960
Speaker 1: or something like that inside a bottle with with just

1997
02:01:13,080 --> 02:01:16,080
Speaker 1: a wig orright something sort of. I know in Spanish

1998
02:01:16,080 --> 02:01:18,720
Speaker 1: Civil War they were using jars a lot like jam jars.

1999
02:01:19,920 --> 02:01:22,400
Speaker 1: But when things started to develop, a thinker is in

2000
02:01:22,480 --> 02:01:25,920
Speaker 1: the UK, so in Britain, and you actually have this

2001
02:01:25,960 --> 02:01:28,280
Speaker 1: guy called Tom Wintringham who went to Spain as a

2002
02:01:28,320 --> 02:01:31,040
Speaker 1: war correspondent, decided to become a soldier and then returned

2003
02:01:31,080 --> 02:01:34,720
Speaker 1: to the UK and tried to share what he had

2004
02:01:34,800 --> 02:01:36,720
Speaker 1: learned with British people right in this article he wrote

2005
02:01:36,720 --> 02:01:40,720
Speaker 1: for Picture Post, and he was very much into Molotov

2006
02:01:40,800 --> 02:01:43,680
Speaker 1: cocktails is a great way of fighting an invasion, much

2007
02:01:43,760 --> 02:01:45,520
Speaker 1: like actually the old guy you heard, did you hear

2008
02:01:45,520 --> 02:01:48,760
Speaker 1: the guy who called into NPR recently, Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,

2009
02:01:48,800 --> 02:01:52,480
Speaker 1: he was outstanding, just just turning NPR into our how

2010
02:01:52,560 --> 02:01:55,400
Speaker 1: to do gorilla warfare. And so what they did they

2011
02:01:55,440 --> 02:01:58,120
Speaker 1: made this thing called the number seventy six grenade, and

2012
02:01:58,240 --> 02:02:01,560
Speaker 1: they made six million of them, I think Jesus Christ.

2013
02:02:01,920 --> 02:02:03,960
Speaker 1: And they still find them. It's funny, they'll still find

2014
02:02:04,000 --> 02:02:05,600
Speaker 1: them in like when they'll be digging the foundation for

2015
02:02:05,640 --> 02:02:07,440
Speaker 1: a building, they'll be like, oh shit, this is not

2016
02:02:07,560 --> 02:02:10,680
Speaker 1: a box of beer. And what those had was a

2017
02:02:10,720 --> 02:02:13,320
Speaker 1: strip of rubber that they dropped in it. It was

2018
02:02:13,400 --> 02:02:15,800
Speaker 1: in a bottle with a cap, and it had a

2019
02:02:15,840 --> 02:02:18,080
Speaker 1: phosphorus ignitor actually, so you didn't have to light it,

2020
02:02:18,200 --> 02:02:21,879
Speaker 1: you just hosted it. And yeah, and those are extremely effective.

2021
02:02:21,880 --> 02:02:26,720
Speaker 1: The rubber dissolves and then that allows the flaming liquid

2022
02:02:26,760 --> 02:02:30,000
Speaker 1: to adhere better to the person or thing that is hit. Right,

2023
02:02:30,360 --> 02:02:34,640
Speaker 1: and you're almost like making a napalm bark, yes exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah,

2024
02:02:34,720 --> 02:02:37,160
Speaker 1: and the phosphorus will last for a long time. It's

2025
02:02:37,320 --> 02:02:40,360
Speaker 1: much less risky to the thrower. And you can also

2026
02:02:40,480 --> 02:02:43,720
Speaker 1: have a whole box of them and just keep throwing them, right.

2027
02:02:43,760 --> 02:02:45,040
Speaker 1: You don't have to light each one, you don't have

2028
02:02:45,120 --> 02:02:47,760
Speaker 1: to have someone else like each one. So those seem

2029
02:02:47,840 --> 02:02:49,760
Speaker 1: pretty effective. I don't know if they were ever really

2030
02:02:49,880 --> 02:02:54,120
Speaker 1: used in Anger, because obviously the Nazis never landed in

2031
02:02:54,160 --> 02:02:58,000
Speaker 1: the UK, but yeah, that was that was a pretty

2032
02:02:58,040 --> 02:03:01,000
Speaker 1: big development, and that kind of set the tone for

2033
02:03:01,080 --> 02:03:04,000
Speaker 1: the other developments which I've seen, at least. I'm not

2034
02:03:04,160 --> 02:03:08,040
Speaker 1: like a molotov expert. But people put sugar in them,

2035
02:03:08,400 --> 02:03:11,080
Speaker 1: people put polystyrene in them or what do you call that?

2036
02:03:11,360 --> 02:03:14,360
Speaker 1: What does sugar in them do? I think it gives

2037
02:03:14,440 --> 02:03:18,320
Speaker 1: it a higher viscosity, and I think they sort of

2038
02:03:18,800 --> 02:03:22,600
Speaker 1: it maybe melts when they are like sticks in it,

2039
02:03:22,760 --> 02:03:25,080
Speaker 1: like creates like a sticky kind of hot, like like

2040
02:03:25,160 --> 02:03:28,480
Speaker 1: if you're making toffee. I would imagine, Um, the big

2041
02:03:28,560 --> 02:03:32,080
Speaker 1: thing I've seen people putting in them is various like plastics. Right,

2042
02:03:32,200 --> 02:03:35,000
Speaker 1: So when you look at the You've seen these videos

2043
02:03:35,040 --> 02:03:37,440
Speaker 1: of old ladies in Ukraine with cheese graters just grating

2044
02:03:37,560 --> 02:03:40,520
Speaker 1: like packing styrofoam, and they put that in there, and

2045
02:03:40,600 --> 02:03:43,240
Speaker 1: that that does the same thing, right, creates a more

2046
02:03:43,520 --> 02:03:46,840
Speaker 1: viscous kind of napalm which adheres to the thing that

2047
02:03:46,920 --> 02:03:48,760
Speaker 1: you throw it at. And that I think if you're

2048
02:03:48,760 --> 02:03:51,280
Speaker 1: talking about persuading someone that their tank is on fire,

2049
02:03:52,040 --> 02:03:55,120
Speaker 1: if it keeps burning for ten twenty seconds, you know

2050
02:03:55,320 --> 02:03:57,200
Speaker 1: you don't have a very long time to get out

2051
02:03:57,280 --> 02:04:00,760
Speaker 1: of a BMP, so you're going to getting out, I

2052
02:04:00,800 --> 02:04:03,120
Speaker 1: would imagine. Well, that does point to like an interesting

2053
02:04:03,240 --> 02:04:06,200
Speaker 1: reality of like not just this war all war, but

2054
02:04:06,320 --> 02:04:10,840
Speaker 1: like specifically in the context of territorial kind of volunteers

2055
02:04:10,960 --> 02:04:15,920
Speaker 1: who are on paper terribly out gunned. Um. But the

2056
02:04:16,000 --> 02:04:18,240
Speaker 1: psychological dimension is that, like you said, if you can

2057
02:04:18,280 --> 02:04:21,040
Speaker 1: convince people they may be in an armored vehicle that

2058
02:04:21,160 --> 02:04:24,360
Speaker 1: has unquestioned supremacy over the partisans attacking them. But if

2059
02:04:24,400 --> 02:04:26,840
Speaker 1: you can convince them they are on fire, they will

2060
02:04:26,880 --> 02:04:29,600
Speaker 1: make decisions that lead them to no longer have the

2061
02:04:29,680 --> 02:04:33,000
Speaker 1: advantage in terms of firepower. It's not impossible to do. Yeah,

2062
02:04:33,160 --> 02:04:34,839
Speaker 1: I think you saw that. I think there's some footage

2063
02:04:34,840 --> 02:04:37,839
Speaker 1: from my dan of them sort of ambushing some armored vehicles.

2064
02:04:37,920 --> 02:04:40,560
Speaker 1: And yet once you throw half a dozen molotov cocktails

2065
02:04:40,600 --> 02:04:43,520
Speaker 1: from above at windows, you can only get those people

2066
02:04:43,520 --> 02:04:45,360
Speaker 1: to abandon their vehicle and run away. That's the goal.

2067
02:04:45,440 --> 02:04:47,080
Speaker 1: If they get out, there are a lot more vulnerable

2068
02:04:47,120 --> 02:04:50,080
Speaker 1: to further attacks from molotov cocktails or anything else. Right,

2069
02:04:50,400 --> 02:04:53,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it. It really plays into that

2070
02:04:53,360 --> 02:04:58,920
Speaker 1: kind of guerrilla or sort of like underdog side of conflict. Yeah.

2071
02:04:59,000 --> 02:05:00,920
Speaker 1: One of the things that's interesting them about me. I mean,

2072
02:05:01,240 --> 02:05:03,120
Speaker 1: you and I just finished this series that dealt heavily

2073
02:05:03,160 --> 02:05:05,640
Speaker 1: with like three D printed weapons, homemade guns and stuff.

2074
02:05:05,720 --> 02:05:07,760
Speaker 1: But you know, there's a lot that you, as the

2075
02:05:07,920 --> 02:05:11,360
Speaker 1: state can do to reduce people's access to firearms, or

2076
02:05:11,360 --> 02:05:14,480
Speaker 1: even to reduce people's access to like knives that are

2077
02:05:14,480 --> 02:05:16,200
Speaker 1: bigger than kitchen knives. A lot you can do to

2078
02:05:16,240 --> 02:05:21,080
Speaker 1: reduce people's access to conventional arms, but everywhere has got liquor. Yeah, exactly,

2079
02:05:21,160 --> 02:05:24,600
Speaker 1: it's almost impossible to stop people having them. Right, If

2080
02:05:24,640 --> 02:05:30,879
Speaker 1: you have gasoline, diesel, alcohol, and glass things and fabric

2081
02:05:31,200 --> 02:05:33,720
Speaker 1: and lighter, you have access to these. So yeah, they're

2082
02:05:33,720 --> 02:05:37,760
Speaker 1: accessible to everyone, and they are incredibly effective. Like, they're

2083
02:05:37,760 --> 02:05:39,760
Speaker 1: probably the most effective thing that you could make in

2084
02:05:39,840 --> 02:05:43,400
Speaker 1: your home if you were doing an insurgency. You're fighting

2085
02:05:44,120 --> 02:05:48,320
Speaker 1: Russian invaders in this case. Yeah, well, James, was there

2086
02:05:48,320 --> 02:05:50,240
Speaker 1: anything else you wanted to get into on the subject

2087
02:05:50,280 --> 02:05:55,520
Speaker 1: of molotobs or other forms of cocktails? Yeah, let me

2088
02:05:55,560 --> 02:05:58,360
Speaker 1: think I should probably say that it's probably illegal to

2089
02:05:58,400 --> 02:06:00,960
Speaker 1: make them in the United States, And I mean there

2090
02:06:01,000 --> 02:06:03,600
Speaker 1: are specific ways you legally can, but you you need

2091
02:06:03,640 --> 02:06:06,160
Speaker 1: a number of different permits. Yeah. Yeah, you do have

2092
02:06:06,280 --> 02:06:10,120
Speaker 1: to ask the government. So I probably wouldn't suggest to

2093
02:06:10,160 --> 02:06:13,800
Speaker 1: do Yes, you have to, I probably wouldn't suggest doing that,

2094
02:06:14,040 --> 02:06:16,680
Speaker 1: But no, I think it's always interesting to look at

2095
02:06:16,720 --> 02:06:21,800
Speaker 1: these like, if we want to move towards a world

2096
02:06:21,920 --> 02:06:25,000
Speaker 1: where there is less authority more freedom, then these things

2097
02:06:25,080 --> 02:06:27,600
Speaker 1: which take away the state's monopoly on the ability to

2098
02:06:27,680 --> 02:06:30,480
Speaker 1: do violence should always be not necessarily like things that

2099
02:06:30,520 --> 02:06:33,320
Speaker 1: we want that. It's interesting. Yeah, that's one of the

2100
02:06:33,360 --> 02:06:37,000
Speaker 1: things that's fascinating to me. Obviously, Ukraine is a pretty

2101
02:06:37,080 --> 02:06:41,400
Speaker 1: standard government within the global or at least up until

2102
02:06:41,440 --> 02:06:43,440
Speaker 1: this point, has been like they are. They are a

2103
02:06:43,600 --> 02:06:46,040
Speaker 1: state that has done a number of ugly things in

2104
02:06:46,120 --> 02:06:48,360
Speaker 1: its past, and we'll do them in the future. But

2105
02:06:48,480 --> 02:06:52,360
Speaker 1: they're in this fascinating moment where the government has really

2106
02:06:52,480 --> 02:06:56,440
Speaker 1: set down any claim to a monopoly on force in

2107
02:06:56,560 --> 02:06:59,560
Speaker 1: a lot of fascinating ways, the kind of widespread here's

2108
02:06:59,600 --> 02:07:02,160
Speaker 1: how to make molotov here's had a disabled And one

2109
02:07:02,200 --> 02:07:04,480
Speaker 1: of the things that's fascinating, the Ukrainian government very famously

2110
02:07:04,520 --> 02:07:06,440
Speaker 1: sent around sheets which are like, here is where to

2111
02:07:06,560 --> 02:07:09,040
Speaker 1: throw molotovs to do the most damage different Russian vehicles,

2112
02:07:09,040 --> 02:07:13,160
Speaker 1: which are also Ukrainian vehicles. Yeah. Yeah, and also those

2113
02:07:13,280 --> 02:07:16,760
Speaker 1: vehicles now belong to random farmers. Like I saw that.

2114
02:07:16,800 --> 02:07:18,680
Speaker 1: It was a thing with the Ukrainian equivalent in the

2115
02:07:18,720 --> 02:07:20,720
Speaker 1: I R S who said, like, don't worry, you don't

2116
02:07:20,760 --> 02:07:23,640
Speaker 1: need to declare this tank on your income tax. Right,

2117
02:07:23,880 --> 02:07:27,320
Speaker 1: how does one tax a person who has a tank? Yeah,

2118
02:07:27,960 --> 02:07:30,000
Speaker 1: or in the case of some of them, has a

2119
02:07:30,120 --> 02:07:34,200
Speaker 1: twenty million dollar anti aircraft system. Yeah, who is the

2120
02:07:34,360 --> 02:07:36,880
Speaker 1: tax man who is willing to go and collect that?

2121
02:07:37,280 --> 02:07:40,880
Speaker 1: Like they have become ungovernable, right, Yeah, I mean it's

2122
02:07:41,120 --> 02:07:43,200
Speaker 1: we're they are in the thick of it, and maybe

2123
02:07:43,440 --> 02:07:45,360
Speaker 1: for the rest of all of our lives. Nobody knows

2124
02:07:45,400 --> 02:07:47,280
Speaker 1: how long this thing is going to last. But if

2125
02:07:48,120 --> 02:07:50,480
Speaker 1: if the war does end in any kind of reasonable

2126
02:07:50,520 --> 02:07:54,800
Speaker 1: time frame, the what's Ukraine going back to. I don't

2127
02:07:54,840 --> 02:07:57,560
Speaker 1: know how they go back to being a normal state

2128
02:07:58,040 --> 02:08:01,160
Speaker 1: when they have when they have opened the udgates to everyone.

2129
02:08:01,360 --> 02:08:03,840
Speaker 1: Is the army now? Well? I think it's Yeah, it

2130
02:08:03,920 --> 02:08:05,840
Speaker 1: calls into question number things, right, like that maybe you

2131
02:08:05,920 --> 02:08:09,640
Speaker 1: don't necessarily always need is very strict disciplinary and structure

2132
02:08:09,760 --> 02:08:14,880
Speaker 1: to fight very effectively. But also yeah, that like do

2133
02:08:15,080 --> 02:08:17,440
Speaker 1: you need the state? Right? People are just doing their

2134
02:08:17,520 --> 02:08:19,720
Speaker 1: own thing right now, and I yeah, I don't know

2135
02:08:19,800 --> 02:08:21,800
Speaker 1: how you really take that back, Like how do you

2136
02:08:21,880 --> 02:08:23,880
Speaker 1: go and collect the tanks from people? They know how

2137
02:08:23,960 --> 02:08:26,960
Speaker 1: to kill tanks, that's what they've been doing. Yeah, the

2138
02:08:27,120 --> 02:08:29,960
Speaker 1: Ukrainian government in the future, if we imagine a time

2139
02:08:30,000 --> 02:08:32,400
Speaker 1: of people piece, it will be quite a while before

2140
02:08:32,400 --> 02:08:35,200
Speaker 1: there's any chance of like, well we better send in

2141
02:08:35,280 --> 02:08:38,200
Speaker 1: the riot troops to crack down on this protest. It's like, no,

2142
02:08:38,360 --> 02:08:39,960
Speaker 1: you're not going to get those riot troops to go

2143
02:08:40,040 --> 02:08:44,280
Speaker 1: anywhere near there. Yeah, Like, yeah, it's testing out this

2144
02:08:44,520 --> 02:08:47,680
Speaker 1: armed society as a polite society thesis. But yeah, I

2145
02:08:47,720 --> 02:08:50,640
Speaker 1: don't know how the police return to a country which

2146
02:08:51,120 --> 02:08:54,400
Speaker 1: is seemingly at least holding off, if not defeating, a

2147
02:08:54,480 --> 02:08:59,040
Speaker 1: military superpower. Yeah. It is a fascinating question, and and

2148
02:08:59,120 --> 02:09:01,120
Speaker 1: no one really has a clear answer, but I do

2149
02:09:01,240 --> 02:09:04,360
Speaker 1: think it's interesting. Of course they have embraced the Molotov

2150
02:09:04,440 --> 02:09:06,800
Speaker 1: as you've kind of made the case here that's it

2151
02:09:06,920 --> 02:09:11,760
Speaker 1: really has this history as this great kind of democratizing

2152
02:09:11,880 --> 02:09:16,120
Speaker 1: force within the conflicts between people and governments and governments

2153
02:09:16,160 --> 02:09:18,880
Speaker 1: and governments. Yeah, and and people in capital, right, Like

2154
02:09:18,960 --> 02:09:21,520
Speaker 1: if you're prepared to destroy capital goods like people have

2155
02:09:21,600 --> 02:09:23,480
Speaker 1: done for centuries, and that that seems to be the

2156
02:09:23,560 --> 02:09:26,920
Speaker 1: way to make change, right, It's kind of interesting, I think,

2157
02:09:27,000 --> 02:09:28,720
Speaker 1: to reflect on from our me and my podcast, I

2158
02:09:28,800 --> 02:09:31,520
Speaker 1: thought was that they had very strict gun ownership laws

2159
02:09:31,640 --> 02:09:34,560
Speaker 1: before this, very very strict apart from from one ethnic

2160
02:09:34,640 --> 02:09:38,280
Speaker 1: group called the Chin. But what they've promised to do afterwards,

2161
02:09:38,280 --> 02:09:41,280
Speaker 1: at least according to our sources is to allow people

2162
02:09:41,360 --> 02:09:44,720
Speaker 1: to keep and bear arms, right, because I guess they

2163
02:09:44,800 --> 02:09:47,240
Speaker 1: kind of have to write because a they can't stop

2164
02:09:47,280 --> 02:09:49,360
Speaker 1: them anymore. These people are three D printing guns and

2165
02:09:49,520 --> 02:09:53,200
Speaker 1: be the only way they got freedom or if this

2166
02:09:53,400 --> 02:09:55,480
Speaker 1: is if the if they're able to defeat the Tapmador,

2167
02:09:55,800 --> 02:09:58,520
Speaker 1: then the only way they've they've become free is through

2168
02:09:58,560 --> 02:10:00,760
Speaker 1: fighting for their freedom. And it's seems that they're not

2169
02:10:00,880 --> 02:10:03,600
Speaker 1: going to be willing to give that up, especially for

2170
02:10:03,680 --> 02:10:06,280
Speaker 1: the ethnic groups there. So yeah, it's really interesting to see,

2171
02:10:06,400 --> 02:10:10,240
Speaker 1: like what kind of a state emerges from a sort

2172
02:10:10,280 --> 02:10:13,960
Speaker 1: of uh, what's the sorts of word? Like like it's

2173
02:10:14,000 --> 02:10:16,400
Speaker 1: it's not an authoritarian structure, right, the military is are

2174
02:10:16,400 --> 02:10:17,960
Speaker 1: not like a lot of people in Ukraine are not

2175
02:10:18,040 --> 02:10:21,440
Speaker 1: necessarily authoritarian instructures. So what emerges for the state when

2176
02:10:21,480 --> 02:10:24,920
Speaker 1: we've had this horizontal resistance? Yeah, these are These are

2177
02:10:25,040 --> 02:10:27,760
Speaker 1: fascinating questions and ones that I think will all be

2178
02:10:27,880 --> 02:10:31,440
Speaker 1: continuing to ask and answer for for the foreseeable future.

2179
02:10:31,960 --> 02:10:33,440
Speaker 1: For now, do you have anything you want to plug

2180
02:10:33,520 --> 02:10:36,280
Speaker 1: before we were all out? James M No. You should

2181
02:10:36,280 --> 02:10:38,080
Speaker 1: listen to our podcast on MIAMA. You can follow me

2182
02:10:38,120 --> 02:10:42,280
Speaker 1: on Twitter. That's my name at James Stout Patreon. I

2183
02:10:42,320 --> 02:10:45,000
Speaker 1: wripe some other things I teach at the community college.

2184
02:10:45,040 --> 02:10:46,520
Speaker 1: If you want to take some history courses, we can

2185
02:10:46,600 --> 02:10:50,640
Speaker 1: learn about molotovs. Have a lecture about that. But otherwise, no,

2186
02:10:50,920 --> 02:10:53,000
Speaker 1: that's about all. Well, that's going to do it for

2187
02:10:53,160 --> 02:10:57,000
Speaker 1: us here until next time. Don't make a molotov if

2188
02:10:57,000 --> 02:10:59,960
Speaker 1: it's illegal where you live. But but do think about

2189
02:11:00,160 --> 02:11:02,840
Speaker 1: molotops because, as the last couple of weeks have shown us,

2190
02:11:03,280 --> 02:11:05,640
Speaker 1: you could buy next week be living in a state

2191
02:11:05,800 --> 02:11:08,720
Speaker 1: where it's very legal to make molotov cocktails. That could

2192
02:11:08,720 --> 02:11:10,520
Speaker 1: happen to any of us. You never know, you know,

2193
02:11:10,760 --> 02:11:13,919
Speaker 1: you never know, So you know, do some reading online,

2194
02:11:14,360 --> 02:11:16,960
Speaker 1: use a use of VP a VPN to do that

2195
02:11:17,160 --> 02:11:21,200
Speaker 1: reading browser. If you're gonna be how to make molotov,

2196
02:11:22,080 --> 02:11:25,120
Speaker 1: do some very careful reading, and um, you know, keep

2197
02:11:25,160 --> 02:11:34,120
Speaker 1: an eye on the world. Hey, we'll be back Monday

2198
02:11:34,280 --> 02:11:37,200
Speaker 1: with more episodes every week from now until the heat

2199
02:11:37,240 --> 02:11:39,600
Speaker 1: death of the universe. It could happen. Here is a

2200
02:11:39,640 --> 02:11:42,480
Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool

2201
02:11:42,560 --> 02:11:45,160
Speaker 1: Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com,

2202
02:11:45,320 --> 02:11:47,080
Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,

2203
02:11:47,080 --> 02:11:50,440
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can

2204
02:11:50,480 --> 02:11:53,160
Speaker 1: find sources for it could happen here, updated monthly at

2205
02:11:53,200 --> 02:11:56,400
Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.

2206
02:11:58,560 --> 02:12:01,720
Speaker 1: Hey there, I'm Jess to Confetti here. Hi, I'm Psyche

2207
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Speaker 1: and I am Hey Shady Lady, and welcome to Boss

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Speaker 1: Level podcast, where we feature conversations with gas tube leveled up,

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Speaker 1: bringing an X fee boost to the table. We picked

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Speaker 1: the brains of professionals, creators and bosses and industries across

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Speaker 1: the globe to help our listeners achieve their own boss level.

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Speaker 1: We are not just creating a podcast, but a gamified

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Speaker 1: an engaged community. Listen to Boss Level on the I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

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Speaker 1: podcasts want. A little over twelve months ago, an eighteen

2216
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Speaker 1: year old African American young man named Niles Hayes was

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Speaker 1: driving a family friends luxury vehicle when he was stopped

2218
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Speaker 1: for routine traffic violation. Things escalate quickly. We have progress

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Speaker 1: officers within hours of the police stop. Footage of the

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Speaker 1: entire altercation gets posted online and it goes viral. I'm

2221
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Speaker 1: Collegen Sanders and are here live from the Los Angeles

2222
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Speaker 1: Valley case presented a lot of challenges. You've got the

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Speaker 1: whole p D outside of my building ready to light

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Speaker 1: the entire block any no more outcomes should have happened

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Speaker 1: in different choice. I guess what I am struggling. You

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Speaker 1: struggle with it because you live in a different reality

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Speaker 1: than we do. Listen to hashtag Matter on the I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get podcast

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Speaker 1: From Cavalry Audio, the studio that brought you The Devil

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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts