1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast based on 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential, and sometimes controversialist. 3 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 2: I'm Britney Spanos and I'm Rob Sheffield. 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 3: We're here to shed light on the greatest songs ever 5 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 3: made and discover what makes them so great. This week, 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 3: we're going into Killing Me Softly. 7 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: This is the only song on the list that has 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: two different versions that are on the list. The Roberta 9 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three version is at number two hundred and 10 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: seventy three and the Fuji's nineteen ninety six version is 11 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: at number three hundred and fifty nine. Both were Grammy 12 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: winning number one hits, massive during their times of release 13 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: and both ended up making the list. 14 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 3: Amazing and two very emotional versions of a very emotional song. 15 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and obviously there's a lot of I feel like 16 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: a lot of people always attribute to roberta Flax version 17 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: being the first. I kind of wanted to get into 18 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: the story behind the making of Killing Me Softly with 19 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:00,040 Speaker 1: his song, which is it? 20 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 2: Like I was reading about it, I. 21 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: Was like, this is so kind of crazy, going back 22 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: to the original and sort of the controversy over the 23 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: lyrics and the writing credits over the years, but the 24 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: original version came out a year prior to A Bird 25 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: of Flax, which was Lori Lieberman who was nineteen when 26 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: she first wrote it. And she wrote it actually during 27 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: a Don McLean concert and was watching him perform the 28 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: ballad empty Chairs and was just like so moved by 29 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: it that she started writing on her napkin during the show, 30 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: this song that's basically about Don McLean singing this like 31 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: heart wrenching ballad. 32 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 3: It was like he found her letters and read each 33 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 3: one out of loud. Lori Lieberman's version, like you said, 34 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 3: that's a whole amazing story. 35 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's I mean that version is very very 36 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 1: traditionally like soft rock. And it is crazy how many 37 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: lives this song has lived, just even sonically, I mean, 38 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: even by the standards of covers and how covers can 39 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: have different lives. I mean, that's something that we've covered 40 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: so much that we see constantly. It is so wild, 41 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: how desparate each version of this song has been. Specifically 42 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: these like three main you know, tent pole versions of 43 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: killing Me Softly that existed. 44 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 3: And Laurie Lieberman's version. How does it sound to you 45 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 3: compared to the Roberta Flag version that became so massive. 46 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: It's so much more understated and like subdued. Like Roberta's 47 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: kind of has this like, I think, like Laurie's almost 48 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: sounds closer to the Lauren Hill sort of vocal of 49 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: like that sort of like like kind of desperation and sadness, 50 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: and Roberta's feels like almost like a little bit there's 51 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: this sort of like jazziness and like upbeatness. I guess 52 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 1: just because she lifts the song a little bit more 53 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: than Laurie's version, which is again just like much more 54 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: like stripped down and very very classic like seventies soft 55 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: rock version. 56 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 3: Funny and so obscure. It's so funny that a song 57 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 3: with two enormously famous versions and the one by the 58 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 3: author the original is barely known at all. Yeah, it's comparable, 59 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 3: I guess in that way too, Betty Davis, A is 60 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 3: a song that you know, Jackie DeShannon recorded years before 61 00:02:57,639 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 3: it was a hit. But nobody knows that Jackie desh 62 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 3: in seventies soft rock version, Yeah, they know the eighties 63 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 3: Kim Carnes synth version. 64 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 65 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 3: Very similar story with Killing Me Softly. 66 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean even Lori isn't credited on the 67 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: both the ROBERTA. Flack and the Fuji's version. The original 68 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: song was composed by Charles Fox, who was actually most notable, 69 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: which I love learning this. He did a lot of 70 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: the like Sunshine pop scores for TV shows in the seventies, 71 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: like The Love Boat, and he did the original music 72 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: for Monday Night Football. 73 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 2: And she co wrote the. 74 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: Lyrics with Norman Gamble, who was, you know, a songwriter 75 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: at the time, and he was doing a lot of 76 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: movie themes love Oscar Nominde movie themes. So it's the 77 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: three of them that had worked on this song originally 78 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: and worked on her first album and work sort of 79 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: a songwriting trio together and had a big falling out. 80 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: Norman and Laurie were dating for a minute while he 81 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: was married. They like fell out by the end of 82 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: the seventies and then by the nineties. The craziest part 83 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: of it was that Norman and Charles ended up basically 84 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: denying a story that they had been saying for years 85 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: of the donal Clean origin of this, like the donal 86 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: Clean concert, how Laurie was inspired by it and basically 87 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: tried to erase her from the entire history of the 88 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: song that wouldn't exist without her. 89 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, very strange how this story turned. For the first 90 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 3: twenty five years after ROBERTA. Flax's version became a hit, 91 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 3: there was no dispute, no controversy about the origin story 92 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 3: of Killing Me Softly. It was a very famous origin story. 93 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 3: Everybody knew that the song had been written about Don 94 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 3: McLean seeing him live, and everybody agreed on the story 95 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 3: of how this song came to be. Yeah, and then 96 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 3: in the nineties, legal disputes completely changed that, and yes, 97 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 3: the story completely changed about the authorship of the song. 98 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 99 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: So I want to make sure that we give our 100 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: proper credit to Laurie Lieberman, who, of course, again this 101 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: great song that has lived a million and one amazing lives, 102 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: and I'm sure we'll have another several one hundred more 103 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: in the future. And she's so much the origin of 104 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: this and was essentially almost erased from the history of 105 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: the song, and you know, has been in more recent 106 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: years doing more interviews and talking about it and kind 107 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: of reclaiming a lot of that legacy, which I think 108 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,679 Speaker 1: is great because she should obviously be given her proper 109 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: due for writing this, Like brilliantly devastating and gorgeous song 110 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: that has had you know, many beautiful covers again that 111 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: exist on our list. 112 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 3: Now, Yeah, it's hard to think of another song that 113 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 3: famous with such a disputed origin story and that the 114 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 3: different sides just do not agree. Closest thing I could 115 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 3: think of is Wider Shade of Pale. But they both 116 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 3: agree who did what, they argue over what constitutes songwriting. 117 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,679 Speaker 3: So even though the writers of Wider Shade of Pale 118 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 3: have been in court for decades and will be for decades, 119 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 3: there's still no dispute over who did what whereas this song, 120 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 3: it's an argument that will never be settled. 121 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, And of course, the Laura Lieberman version that had 122 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: come out, she released it as a single on her 123 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: first album, and it was released into the world in 124 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: its first version by her, and it was actually a 125 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: Roberta flat hearing it while she was on an airplane 126 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: for the first time where she heard the song in 127 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: sort of like the in flight music, and that kind 128 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: of spurred this like couple of years that she was 129 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: really obsessed with this song and covering it and like 130 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 1: really really wanting to record it and playing it and 131 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: you know, just kind of being in love with this 132 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: version that she had heard on a flight. 133 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 3: ROBERTA. Flack was on such a role. She really created 134 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 3: her own pop style with this super calm, super jazzy, 135 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 3: but very understated soul that was very pop, very torchy, 136 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 3: and she did it without any kind of historyonics. It's 137 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 3: funny that in a song like killing Me Softly or 138 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 3: any of her massive hits, really the first time ever 139 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 3: I Saw Your Face is another great example where she 140 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 3: takes this Celtic folk song by You and McCall and 141 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 3: turns it into completely different song that's all her own, 142 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 3: this real soul soliloquy yeah, and her seventy soul sound. 143 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 3: There was nobody else who's sounded quite like it and 144 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 3: had that smooth but super emotional tone, and she just 145 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 3: really brought that home with killing Me Softly. 146 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 147 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: And the origin of her even recording it I loved, 148 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: which was that she was touring with Quincy Jones at 149 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: the time and came out for her encore and then 150 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: she needed one more song, and she decided to sing 151 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: the song that she had covered a few times before 152 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: and had wanted to record and just didn't like the 153 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,119 Speaker 1: original kind of version of the recording that she had done, 154 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: and Quincy was just like, you can't keep singing the 155 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: song if you're just not gonna release it, And then 156 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: she did and it became a number one hit. It 157 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: was number one for five weeks. It wanted Grammy, it 158 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: was you know, it was just like a massive moment 159 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: for Roberta that you know has lived on in it 160 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: in that form for many many generations and years. I mean, 161 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: it's just like her voice sounds incredible on it, and 162 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: it's just like absolutely gorgeous and kind of just an 163 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: instant classic. 164 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 3: Really, it's her own distinctive sound. What are some of 165 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 3: your favorites from her great seventies. 166 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: Run Ooh, I mean I think like the first time 167 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: I ever saw your face was like it's that's like 168 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: a big one for me, Like, I love, love love 169 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: that one. 170 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 2: That's like a I love her voice on that one 171 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 2: so much. 172 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 4: It's amazing. 173 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, it builds as it repeats, Yeah, and she really 174 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 3: underplays it in a really beautiful and emotional way. My 175 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 3: favorite is with Donnie Hathaway, where is the Love? 176 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 5: Yeah? 177 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 3: What a song? Love hearing those two voices together a 178 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 3: real like archetypal seventies R and B duo. 179 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: And isn't Donnie singing background too on Killing Me Softly? 180 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: As well? 181 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 4: Yeah? 182 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 3: Yes, their voices connect in so many amazing ways. Where's 183 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,719 Speaker 3: the Love is my sentimental favorite. Yeah, they both have 184 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 3: the same question, where is the love? Neither of them knows. 185 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 3: They keep asking each other through the song. As far 186 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 3: as we know, this conversation has been going on for 187 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 3: hours before they turned on the tape recorder and kept 188 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 3: going for hours. But she had that super suave sort 189 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 3: of sound. Yeah, that was perfect for a song like 190 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 3: Killing Me Softly, which is very emotional and very uh, 191 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 3: very confessional. 192 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, even just like her version, especially 193 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: comparing it to the original version, and just especially because 194 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: they came out only only a couple of years in 195 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: between each other. You know, Roberta is just kind of 196 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: she makes it like a little bit, you know, a 197 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 1: little bit faster of a song, and she adds sort 198 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: of like all these kind of She's so classically trained, 199 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: so you know, all these elements of both, you know, 200 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: her her own kind of classical and jazz training as 201 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: a musician kind of brought into this. But originally was 202 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: just a very kind of standard classic soft rock moment 203 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: and makes it this like impeccable R and B sound. 204 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 2: It's just like really stunning. 205 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: Yes, of course, two decades later the song sort of 206 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: it has a couple of revivals. One there's like a 207 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: like a club version of roberta Flax version that ends 208 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: up sort of you know, having a bit of a 209 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: moment in the mid nineties. And of course the Fujis recorded 210 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: for the Score and this was their sophomore album, a big, 211 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: big breakthrough for the band, and it is I mean 212 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: just like again, a totally different story launches. 213 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 2: With the Fuji's cover of Killing Me Softly. 214 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 3: Which version were you into first? 215 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: Fujis for sure, both like the Fujis and Lauren Hill 216 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: as a solo artist. It was just like inescapable in 217 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: the nineties, like that was just like something that not 218 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: even just like hearing on the radio, like you were 219 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: just like hearing constantly like out and about that was 220 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: like music that very much soundtracked, you know, every summer 221 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: and was just. 222 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: Like hard to escape. 223 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: So I feel like that song was one that I 224 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: heard a lot and was the first time I'd ever 225 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: heard that song, and then was very like surprised even 226 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 1: to hear the Bird of Flack version I think probably 227 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: later in high school college sometime sometime later, but was 228 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: shocked to kind of hear this other version of the 229 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: song that I just kind of assumed just belonged to 230 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: Lauren Hill and her voice and had been hers for 231 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: the entirety of its life. 232 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, and such a departure for the fujis Yeah really 233 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 3: wild that you know? The score was absolutely perfect album, Yeah, 234 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 3: stacked from end to end and killing Me Softly sounded 235 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 3: like nothing else on the album. It sounded more like 236 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,719 Speaker 3: what Lauren Hill ended up doing first, Yeah solo album, Miseducation, 237 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 3: But you know, it's basically Lauren Hill's solo as an 238 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 3: R and B singer, which is very different from what 239 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:19,559 Speaker 3: she's doing what the group is doing all through the 240 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 3: rest of the album. 241 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, And this the original idea for even covering the 242 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: song came from Prase and the group. They were kind 243 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: of inspired by a tribe called Quest and sort of 244 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: the breakbeat production that tribe had become very known for, 245 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: and so they wanted to do their own take on it, 246 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: and they actually wanted to change the lyrics at first, 247 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: and they wanted to make it sort of a song 248 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: about like anti poverty, anti drugs, sort of you know, 249 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: just like modernize the lyrics in some way. But we're 250 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: denied by Charles and Norman, who sort of again were 251 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: the only credited composer and songwriter for the song at 252 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: the time, but they ended up doing sort of the 253 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: straightforward lyrical cover of the song and really updating it 254 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: making it sound super fresh. I mean, it still sounds 255 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: super fresh, as you know, it's still sound it's like 256 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: an extremely timeless kind of take on this once soft 257 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: rock then sort of like jazzy soul song and then 258 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: you know, now this kind of like break beat hip 259 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: hop like moment from from nineteen ninety six. 260 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fantastic. It's funny that they don't really depart 261 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 3: from the original arrangement much. You know, they don't add 262 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 3: any any rapping, any interludes like that. Yeah, it's pretty 263 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 3: much singing the song straight with, like you said, the 264 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 3: original words. The main revision is the way she pronounces boy. 265 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: And one time. 266 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 3: Yes, one time is great. I mean there's a lot 267 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 3: of inventive touches, the one time and the cinar, yeah, 268 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 3: which is really kind of fantastic. It's gotta be my 269 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 3: favorite nineties hip hop sitar moment. 270 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I do find myself when I'm listening to the ROBERTA. 271 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: Flack version, like in my head adding the one time. 272 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 3: It definitely sounds Yes, it always sounds a little off 273 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 3: without the one Yeah. 274 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, it's kind of you know how the song 275 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 1: was always meant to be me and Donnie Hathaway in 276 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: the back. 277 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 3: To Yeah, you know, like White Cup should have been 278 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 3: on stage with don McClain when you were singing, just 279 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 3: going one time after each chorus. But it's well because 280 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 3: that's really the only part of the song that is 281 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 3: a detail that says, By the way, this singer is 282 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 3: in a group and they're a hip hop. 283 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 2: There are other members in this group. Don't forget they. 284 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 3: Do not do covers of seventy soul songs as their 285 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 3: main musical formula. 286 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I really love Lauren's vocal performance on the song, 287 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: and like you said, like it does feel so much 288 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: like this like launching of what we would hear from 289 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: her as a solo artist. It feels so connected to 290 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: not connected in a way where it feels like it 291 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: should be a miseducation, but definitely feels like that, like 292 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 1: step towards mis Education that we would get a few 293 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: years later, but I mean she definitely leans even more 294 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: into sort of that kind of like yearning element of it, 295 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: and like she's really really deep and like you could 296 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: really hear it in the way that she's singing this song, 297 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: which again is like a big part of a lot 298 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: of the songs on mis Education have so much of 299 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: that kind of tone of yearning that she channels so 300 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: well on this particular song. 301 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 3: The fact that this song was, you know, a song 302 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 3: that was a huge pop hit for the Fujis, who 303 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 3: didn't really need a pop hit for a massive hit, 304 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 3: the score was going to be a blockbuster album for them, 305 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 3: even without killing me softly. 306 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean Ready or Not Alone? 307 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolute family Business. Yeah, that's the killer on that album. 308 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 3: I could never understand why that never became any kind 309 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 3: of hit, never seemed to get enough airplay. But Family Business, 310 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 3: that to me is like that is the Fuji song. Yeah, 311 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 3: my favorite of favorites. 312 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean again, this version becomes a number 313 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: one hit when's the Grammy, It like ends up becoming 314 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: sort of no in no way sort of even like 315 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: on a different level than the Bird of black version, 316 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: which again was such a monster of its own hit 317 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: in its own time. And then we have another version 318 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: that completely again like reinvents it, remakes it and like 319 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: is in its own way in the mid nineties subdly 320 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: this number one Grammy winning hit. 321 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 2: At that time. 322 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, and a hit that never goes away. Yeah, It's 323 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 3: always everywhere, it always fits in, it never sounds stated. 324 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. 325 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: Are there other songs like that where they have sort 326 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: of like that kind of first number one sort of run. 327 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: I guess like that occurred and then kind of comes 328 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,239 Speaker 1: back as a cover version that ends up being successful. 329 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 3: Example comes to mind is Always on My Mind by 330 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 3: the Pet Shop Boys, Yeah, which was huge hit for Elvis, 331 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 3: just as a sort of you know, vagacy ballad. 332 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 333 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 3: And then a much bigger hit, the Country version by 334 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 3: Willie Nelson, which seemed like it was always going to 335 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 3: be a definite version. And then this totally crazy, hyper 336 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 3: high energy eighties pop disco version by the Pet Shop Boys, 337 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 3: And I love how strange it is that it is 338 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 3: the same song. They're not messing with the arrangement. It's 339 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 3: like killing me softly. But every version has such a 340 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 3: different mood and without changing anything. Fundamental or structural about 341 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 3: the song. They just make it feel completely different. Yeah, 342 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 3: So I don't even think of that as a cover. 343 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 3: They're just like different hit versions. 344 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 345 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess it also reminded me because we had 346 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: talked about this song very recently, was the first cut 347 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: of The Deepest as like another sort of like having 348 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: sort of like the Cat Stevens than Rod Stewart than 349 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: Cheryl Crowe versions kind of existed and being so faithful to, 350 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: you know, the original and like what the original song 351 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: sounds like, but finding kind of their own pockets of 352 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: what that song could be or kind of pulling out 353 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: different emotions. 354 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 2: From the lyrics. 355 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, it's wild when that happens, and when 356 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 3: a song can have another life for two different singers 357 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 3: where it's not a one shot in either career. And 358 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 3: with Killing Me Softly, Lauren Hill was already a star 359 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 3: on the hip hop level, already about to break out. 360 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 3: The Fuji's were absolutely going to break out with pop 361 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 3: with this. Withbird of Flack, it was one hit among 362 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 3: many for her. Yeah, it's funny that it's a song 363 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 3: that is so distinctive in both their catalogs. Yeah, but 364 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 3: definitely a song that is part of their story. Yeah, 365 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 3: a long story. 366 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, added to so much of their stories, and not 367 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: even just like built the story, but kind of like 368 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: added like a new chapter to already who they were 369 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: or who. 370 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 2: They were becoming at those times. 371 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 372 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite sort of other fujis or 373 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: Lauren Hill vocal moment or song? 374 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 3: It's well because for her soul vocals, I mean, she 375 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 3: has such a distinctive voice, whether she's rapping or singing. Yeah, 376 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 3: and there's really nothing else like it. And that was 377 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 3: always wild with Killing Me Softly, such a familiar song 378 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 3: that she puts such an original twist on without changing melody, 379 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 3: without changing the words, just because the tone of her voice, 380 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 3: like you said, so yearning. I love when she raps 381 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 3: and does that in her voice. Her vocal on Lost Ones, Yeah, 382 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 3: is just such a phenomenal vocal. She's rapping, not singing, 383 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 3: but that same kind of yearning is in it, even 384 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 3: though she's talking very tough. It's not a yearning lyric, 385 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 3: but you can hear that yearning in her voice in 386 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 3: that song. 387 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm always partial to the yearning song. So I'm 388 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 1: a big fan of X Factor by her, which again 389 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: similar kind of those similar like family of you know, 390 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: vocal performances from her that that Killing Me Softly. 391 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 2: Kind of has. 392 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: But I just I think that that is just one 393 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: of her her best office another one that you know, 394 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: even in sample form, has had many, many different lives 395 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: and covers. You know, ifyonce has covered a hit, drake 396 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 1: A sampled it like it's you know, has sort of 397 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: these different kind of resurgences over I mean, I guess, 398 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: especially in the last ten years of existing, it is amazing. 399 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 3: Miseducation of Learn Hill has to be one of the 400 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 3: most front loaded albums of all time. Weld also that 401 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 3: the Fuji's version very anomalous for a hip hop group 402 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 3: in the nineties, very serious hip hop group with a 403 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 3: lot of underground ties. A hit like this didn't affect 404 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 3: their credibility in any way. Yeah, they didn't complain about 405 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 3: it the way you know that an artist is going 406 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 3: to often complain about their pop breakthrough hit. This just 407 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,479 Speaker 3: really seemed to fit every audience. It really seemed to connect, 408 00:18:58,600 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 3: is the real thing. 409 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, did you say which one you liked the more, 410 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: ROBERTA Flack or the Fujis. 411 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 3: Now I was avoiding the question because it's so painful, 412 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 3: the push come to shove, The Lauren Hill version, the 413 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 3: Fuji's version, Yeah, that's the one that's when I think 414 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 3: of the song. I think of that version yearning in 415 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 3: her voice. She is so yearning. ROBERTA. Flack is so calm. 416 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 3: They're both so powerful in that. And yet the Lauren 417 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 3: Hill version with again that one time, which really is 418 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 3: a canonical part of the song for me. 419 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, And what are some other versions that you've heard 420 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 1: over the years are really like, Like, I recently heard Jenny 421 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: from Black Pink cover it and I loved her take 422 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: on the song as well. 423 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 3: It's so good. It's such an odd pick. 424 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that that was such a great version. 425 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: It becomes such a standard for a lot of singers 426 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: to go to this song because it is such a 427 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: great vocal song. And you know, I feel like American Idol, 428 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: and you know, a lot of singing competitions, a lot 429 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: of singers gravitate towards it. 430 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 3: It's just amazing a song that is so powerful about 431 00:19:58,320 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 3: the act of listening to music. 432 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. 433 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 1: Next, we'll be joined by Rolling Stone senior writer David Brown. 434 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: We are joining now by Rolling Stone senior writer David Brown. 435 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 2: David, thank you so much. 436 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 4: Thanks for having me here. Glad to be thank David. 437 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 4: Thanks Robing Brittany. 438 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: I mean, we both answered the very difficult choice of 439 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: which version of Killing Me. 440 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 2: Softly is your favorite? So I want to know your 441 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 2: your answer. 442 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 5: My favorite is still the ROBERTA. Flack original. It's probably 443 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 5: because it's the first one I heard. Just maybe not 444 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 5: the case with some people, but I remember, I mean 445 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 5: I loved it at the time, even though it was 446 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 5: like this little kid and you know, quote unquote soft 447 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 5: rock type songs didn't work usually my thing. Most of 448 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 5: us didn't know the backstory behind any of it. It 449 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 5: was just this like beautiful flowing song on the radio. 450 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 5: That wordless part she sings in it is just transcendent. 451 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 5: It just like brings it up to another level. You 452 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 5: weren't sure which exactly she was singing about. But yeah, 453 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 5: that's the one I still listened to, even though the Fuji's. 454 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 4: Is great, but you know, just the early one was 455 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 4: the one that connected with me. 456 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: And when did you hear the original version, the Lori 457 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: Liberman version. 458 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 4: Oh, probably not till many years later. 459 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, that record, which which was the first version of 460 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 5: it of that song, you know, kind of came and went. 461 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 5: It wasn't a hit or anything. And so even back 462 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 5: then and back in the day, Lorid Liberman was a 463 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 5: cult figure at best. You know, you just never heard 464 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 5: her songs at all on the radio. You might see 465 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 5: the records in the record store, but like, oh, who's 466 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 5: that you know or another singer songwriter. So it wasn't 467 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 5: until many years later, when you know, YouTube or whatever 468 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 5: where things were more accessible. I heard it and I 469 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 5: was like, oh, wow, like this is you can see 470 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 5: how reverta Flak re arranged it, but the essence of 471 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 5: the song is kind of all there. I thought it 472 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 5: was really fascinating. And then, of course we all many 473 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 5: years as the years went on, we all learned the 474 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 5: whole backstory with Lourie Lieberman, which is a whole other 475 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 5: fascinating thing that, like I said, we didn't know at 476 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 5: the time. 477 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 4: It came out later. 478 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you sort of remember kind of like 479 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: how that exploded, especially in the late nineties with with 480 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: Lori and the other songwriters. 481 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I vaguely remember reading an interview with 482 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 5: her with Lori Liberman sometime in the late nineties. 483 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 4: I think it was after the Fuji's version. 484 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 5: So I think by then we all knew it was 485 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 5: about Don McClain, but you know, her going into more 486 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 5: detail about her relationship with gimbal and Fox. And then 487 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 5: around the same time, Charles Fox, who Don McLean or 488 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 5: threatened to sue Don mcclin for putting on his website 489 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 5: that he was the inspiration for that song. That's when 490 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 5: I really all started coming out, I think, And. 491 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: Can you tell us little bit more about the lawsuit 492 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 2: that happened with Don. 493 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 4: I think it was just a threat. 494 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, And again I think it was again after the 495 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 5: Fujis and he put something on his website that he 496 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 5: was the inspiration for the song, and it's actually still 497 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 5: there to some extent on his site. I just checked 498 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 5: it today. He has a little chronological kind of timeline 499 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 5: and there's a photo of him with Lori Liberman ten 500 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 5: twenty years ago hanging out. I think the songwriters at 501 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 5: the time, we're trying to rewrite history a bit and 502 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 5: kind of write out the fact that he inspired Lorie Lieberman, 503 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 5: which would then sort of write her out of the 504 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 5: story because she had sort of given an interview dissing them. 505 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 5: So it seemed like it was maybe their way of 506 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 5: trying to get back at him by having Don McLean 507 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 5: take the thing off his website, and so they threatened. 508 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 5: One of them threatened the lawsuit, and Don McLean pulled 509 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 5: out this article from the Daily News from nineteen seventy 510 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 5: three in which Lord Lieberman has asked, oh, you know 511 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 5: who's this about, and she says Don McLean, I saw 512 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 5: him at the Troubert in Los Angeles last year, blah 513 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 5: blah blah, and then I think the whole thing just 514 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 5: kind of went away. But you know, I was fascinated 515 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 5: with the I guess what we'd call the umbrella term 516 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 5: of soft rock, which would be like singer songwriters and 517 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 5: yacht rock, because the more you dig into some of 518 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 5: this stuff, you realize that sometimes neither the singers nor 519 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 5: the songs, or that laid back and mellow and it's like, oh, 520 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 5: that troubadour who was nice not to be a heroin 521 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 5: at or some complete neuronic mess, or you know, you're 522 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 5: listening to a yacht rock song like Ride like the 523 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 5: Wind and it's like it's moving along vialuce you read 524 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 5: the lyrics, Oh, it's kind of like a gangster thing 525 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 5: about a guy within the run with the gun and 526 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 5: the crime the Steel. There's steely dance songs. Of course, 527 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 5: they're about drug dealers and stuff. A soft rock is 528 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 5: always so soft and mellow and and so there's something 529 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 5: about this whole saga of killing me softly that is 530 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 5: part of that tradition of like, oh, it's a really 531 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 5: pretty song, and it is. It's a beautiful song, and 532 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 5: then you learn more about it and you're like, oh, boy, 533 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 5: that is one tangled, often twisted teal. 534 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 4: And you guys probably discuss the Fuji's version. 535 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 5: I imagine, like how they wanted to rewrite it and 536 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 5: all that, and that was another you know, past thing 537 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 5: twist and they weren't allowed to change the lyrics. It's 538 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 5: a song that seems so kind of a gorgeous pop 539 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 5: song that has this fraud history in the great tradition 540 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 5: of the dark side of soft. I should do of 541 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 5: Spotify playlist. You know what's also so interesting about this 542 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 5: song is I went back and listened to so many 543 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 5: of the covers and there's a whole slew of them. 544 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 5: Nancy Sinatra and Johnny Mathis and Perry Como, Anne Murray 545 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 5: Bastile just did it like right like last year and 546 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 5: plugged thing, and nobody messes with it. I mean the 547 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 5: Fuji's had to be you know, they arrange slightly, but 548 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 5: it's a song that people are very reverent about really, 549 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 5: like you know, there's no kitschy ironic covers that I've 550 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 5: come across. Maybe you guys have, but it seems like 551 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 5: every version of it is very faithful, adheres to the 552 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 5: kind of arrangement and the spirit of it. You know, 553 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 5: even if people change his song to her song. In 554 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 5: some cases, that's about the biggest tweak, and I think 555 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 5: it shows how that song has not just endured in 556 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 5: the culture, but it's I don't want to call it sacred, 557 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 5: that's too much, but I mean it's it's something that 558 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,479 Speaker 5: is a very meaningful song to lots of people, all 559 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 5: about Don McLean, So go figure. 560 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 3: His second biggest impact. 561 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 5: And isn't it funny too? That was inspired but not 562 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 5: just seeing him, but not by American Pie, but like 563 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 5: a deep cut on the American Pie album called Empty Chairs, 564 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 5: which is like and that was one of the first 565 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 5: albums in my record collection. I have to say American Pie, 566 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 5: so I know that song. 567 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 3: Well, the Don McLean song American pie that we all 568 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 3: know inspired by Buddy Holly, and that this thing of 569 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 3: songs about listening to songs. 570 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, songs, yes, yes, which I guess is part of 571 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 5: the backstory. And gimbal and Fox had some idea right 572 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 5: of like, oh, let's let's write a song about how 573 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,959 Speaker 5: music can inspire you, and she was like, oh wait. Loyally, 574 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 5: by coincidence, I saw Don McLean and. 575 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: To the point of like the reverence to the original, 576 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: it is so fascinating with the fuji's wanting to change it, 577 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: they still create something that is that feels like such 578 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: a continuation of the story and of the song and 579 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 1: how it had been in previous incarnations. But do you 580 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 1: have any kind of thoughts on why people have sort 581 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: of in later years and more recently still kind of 582 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: maintained that and sort of maintained that idea of the 583 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: song in its purest form when they cover it. 584 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 5: I think the fact that it's even taking Don McLean 585 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 5: out of it and whatever's feeling once feelings are about 586 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 5: Don McClain. 587 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 4: I think this. 588 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 5: Idea of seeing a performer hearing a song and having 589 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 5: it so affect you and move you is a universal 590 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 5: enduring the sentiment, you know, and I think that sort 591 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 5: of transcends generations and genres. I think that must be 592 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,479 Speaker 5: an aspect of it. It's kind of a standard. I mean, 593 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 5: it's an interesting structure. It has a verse chorus structure, 594 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 5: but it plays around with that a little bit. I mean, 595 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 5: I was thought that it was so striking to people 596 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 5: when the Fuji's version came out, because there wasn't anything 597 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 5: quite like that at the time on the radio. 598 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 3: It's funny that her romantic songs like were the ones 599 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 3: that didn't necessarily capture that quality in her voice quite 600 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 3: as much as this one did. 601 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 4: Interesting, that's a good point. 602 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 3: The first time I ever saw your face, that's you know, 603 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 3: Brittany was talking about that. That's her favorite ROBERTA Flex. 604 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Yeah. 605 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 5: What's fascinating is that I grew to love that song 606 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 5: when I got older, and you look back and like 607 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 5: the fact that that song was like a big pop hit. 608 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 4: You know, it was in a movie and that helped. 609 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 5: But I mean it's so like subdude and slow and 610 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 5: like you know, it's it's got all the space in it, 611 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 5: and it's it's kind of remarkable that that was like 612 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 5: a top ten or whatever hit at the time. 613 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 4: It's kind of a miracle. 614 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so repetitive verse for there's no chorus, there's 615 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 3: no bridge. It structured like a folk song way. 616 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 5: It's just this slow, simmery thing all the way through it. 617 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 5: And it was like I said, it didn't hit me 618 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 5: at first, but I mean it when it did, it 619 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 5: was like, Wow, this is really hypnotic, and you really 620 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 5: just sit down and listen to that thing over. 621 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 4: And over again. And the other thing. 622 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 5: Maybe you guys already talked to all those other songs 623 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 5: that gimbal and Fox wrote, like TV theme song, like 624 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 5: Happy Days, wonder Woman, Vernon Shirley. It's like those guys 625 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 5: wrote killing Me Softly. 626 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 3: It's one of bey On killing Me Softly. Their second 627 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 3: most famous lyric is love Exciting and new Come be 628 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 3: Expecting You, and. 629 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 4: The other one wonder Woman. Yeah, that's another catchy lyric 630 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 4: of this. 631 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, and I Got a Name by Jim Croch, which 632 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 5: is actually a great song too. 633 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 3: That's one of my favorite Jim Croch songs. It blew 634 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 3: my mind that that was their song and not Jim Crochy's, 635 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 3: which is a compliment to their songwriting. 636 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 4: Right right, as well as to him. 637 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 5: They were real chameleons. I mean, I'll say that about them, 638 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 5: and they could just adapt to whatever. You gotta write 639 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 5: a TV theme, Oh good, you gotta write a kind 640 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 5: of singer songwriter song. Okay, we'll do that gimbal translated, 641 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 5: you know, golf Medpanima lyrics. I mean, it was just 642 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 5: like these were kind of old school record business guys 643 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,719 Speaker 5: who are like, you do what you to do and 644 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 5: you adapt to your times. It's kind of a rarity 645 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 5: now think in the business and people to do that. 646 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 3: It was the Tim Panlly sort of tradition where you know, 647 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 3: like absolutely gets done. 648 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 4: Absolutely, there's work to do, and you do the work 649 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 4: and you don't worry if it's cool or not. 650 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, David, Thank you. 651 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 4: Thanks guys. Is always a blast, real joy talking to always. 652 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to Rolling Stones five hundred 653 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought to you by Rolling 654 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: Stone and iHeartMedia. Written hosted by me Britney Spanis and 655 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: Rob Sheffield. Executive produced by Gus Winner, Jason Fine, Alex Dale, 656 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: and Christian Horde, and produced by Jesse Cannon, with music 657 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: supervision by Eric Seiler.