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Speaker 1: Guys, what happened to a d C intern Schendrel Levy?

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Speaker 1: She gets her dream internship in d C and immediately

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Speaker 1: allegedly catapults into a sex relationship with the U. S. Congressman.

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Speaker 1: That's allegedly, but what I do know is Chandre Levy

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Speaker 1: was murdered. Why has the only real suspect in the

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Speaker 1: Chandra Levy murder seemingly disappeared? Thursday Night on A and

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Speaker 1: E eleven o'clock Eastern eleven p m. Eastern Grace versus

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Speaker 1: Abrams bombshell, please join us Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. Love behind Bars.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like a cheesy movie or something that you

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Speaker 1: get on pay per view, but it's real. How do

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Speaker 1: people like the Menendez Brothers, Charles Manson, Scott Peterson, You're

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Speaker 1: in vander Slute, even Jody Arius somehow managed to find

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Speaker 1: a love life behind bars? Even getting married, engaged, uh

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Speaker 1: sending money, Valentine's love letters? You name it? How does

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Speaker 1: it happen? I Meancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. The

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Speaker 1: Love behind Bars phenomena goes on with me. Alexis Torres,

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Speaker 1: Chuck Radar Online dot Com Karen Stark, renowned New York psychologist,

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Speaker 1: forensics expert Karen Smith, and veteran defense attorney Jason Ocean's

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Speaker 1: Alexis Toresta first to you. You investigated Jodi Arias with

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Speaker 1: Radar Online dot Com. Let me just give you a

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Speaker 1: tiny taste of what Jodi Arias has to offer from

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Speaker 1: behind bars. If you're here, my grandparents are sleep. Let's

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Speaker 1: put you in, and my vegrooming to shut him at

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Speaker 1: the door, and we were just hoping you go out

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Speaker 1: of make me sore me seriously think about having sex

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Speaker 1: with every day? Thank God. Good fine member. So, Alexis

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Speaker 1: Toures Chuck, Radar online dot Com investigative reporter. That's just

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Speaker 1: a tidbit of some of Jodi Arias phone calls, her

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Speaker 1: X rated phone calls. That was with her murder victim,

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Speaker 1: Travis Alexander. So apparently she's still luring men even though

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Speaker 1: she's got a life sentence behind bars. What can you

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Speaker 1: tell me, Alexis about Jodi arias love life. Her love

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Speaker 1: life is almost as active behind bars as it was outside.

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Speaker 1: She has scores of men that are writing to her.

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Speaker 1: They're sending her love letters, They are also sending her money.

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Speaker 1: They're putting it in her account, so that she has

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Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds thousands of dollars in her commissary account.

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Speaker 1: And she goes crazy buying everything that she can in

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Speaker 1: the commissary. And it's because these men think that she

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Speaker 1: is innocent. They think she's going to get out of jail.

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Speaker 1: They propose marriage to her, They send dirty messages. She

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Speaker 1: has even a plan. She was writing with an ex

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Speaker 1: boyfriend and they two of them had a plan for

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Speaker 1: her to have a baby behind bars. White stop, stop,

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Speaker 1: stop stop. I was listening to all of the Jodi

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Speaker 1: Arias X rated phone sex tastes, but then I heard

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Speaker 1: the word baby. What baby? What? Baby? She has this

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Speaker 1: ex boyfriend and he, the two of them came up

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Speaker 1: with some scheme that they would get together, they would

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Speaker 1: have sex contual visit, and that she would get pregnant

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Speaker 1: behind bars. Okay, what can you tell me about Jodi

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Speaker 1: arius jailhouse, love letters and the weird odd reason men

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Speaker 1: are quote love struck by? Jody Arias explained to me this.

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Speaker 1: So she's beautiful people. She has gorgeous hair, she's gorgeous eyes,

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Speaker 1: she is flirty, she's cute, and men are so attracted

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Speaker 1: to her still and they think that she's this helpless

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Speaker 1: little girl that is behind ours that they are going

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Speaker 1: to rescue, like they're gonna be a night and shining

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Speaker 1: armor and they're gonna rescue Jody Arius. Plus she's also

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Speaker 1: like a vixen in the bedroom. Everybody knows from the

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Speaker 1: trial all she there's nothing she won't do in the

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Speaker 1: bedroom and they have acting out their fantasies with her.

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Speaker 1: Take a list and to Jetty, are you speaking of

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Speaker 1: love and sex fantasy? When we took a bath together,

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Speaker 1: that was that was surreal, like honestly, and I think,

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Speaker 1: I mean maybe the candle light and the bubbles all

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Speaker 1: had something to do with it. But you are amazing.

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Speaker 1: You made me seriously, you made me feel like a goddess.

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Speaker 1: Like I wasn't saying you were like worshiping me, but

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Speaker 1: you were. You made me feel like I was the

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Speaker 1: most freaking beautiful woman on the whole planet, right, I

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Speaker 1: I so felt like I was the goddess and so

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Speaker 1: besides from all those warm, fuzzy feelings, but like it was,

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Speaker 1: it was so sexy and it was so hot, and

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Speaker 1: oh gosh, were freak you were hot interesting, arius is

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Speaker 1: love interest one of them. But we know this. Less

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Speaker 1: than twenty four hours after Arias brutally shoots and stabs

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Speaker 1: Travis dead, she was acting quote sexually aggressive and quote

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Speaker 1: acting normal when she shows up at a brand new

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Speaker 1: boyfriend's home in Utah. Now we're not just spinning this.

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Speaker 1: This is testimony, sworn testimony from the witness stand. It

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Speaker 1: was Ryan Burns, then thirty two, then dating areas, and

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Speaker 1: they had met at a conference, a work conference. Arias

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Speaker 1: planned to visit him after weeks of phone calls and

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Speaker 1: texts that were turning into a long distance relationship. And

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Speaker 1: with just hours after murdering, brutally murdering Travis Alexander, she

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Speaker 1: hops literally gets in bed with Burns and hops on

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Speaker 1: top of him, straddling him and kiss him. This is

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Speaker 1: just ours after murdering Travis Alexander. So Karen Start, renowned

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Speaker 1: New York psychologists joining us, How does that mindset play

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Speaker 1: into areas finding love behind bars? Well, it's the that's

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Speaker 1: I don't think that it's the same at all, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: Her finding love behind bars has to do with the

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Speaker 1: people that fall in love with in a situation like this,

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Speaker 1: and most of the time it's someone who has attachment issues.

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Speaker 1: They're not able to have a relationship with somebody who

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Speaker 1: is available to them. It's so much easier for them

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Speaker 1: to have a relationship where there are restrictions, where they

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Speaker 1: know the other person can't go anywhere, so in a way,

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Speaker 1: they're in control and they don't have to have anything

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Speaker 1: that's real. It could be more like a fairy tale.

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Speaker 1: You could turn that other person into any when you want,

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Speaker 1: and it becomes much safer and secure for them. Well,

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Speaker 1: I guess what I'm referring to is to meet her

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Speaker 1: behavior of having stabbed and shot Travis Alexander and leaving

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Speaker 1: his body to rotten shower and then within a couple

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Speaker 1: of hours driving to the next new boyfriend and literally

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Speaker 1: hopping on top of him is a cold and calculated behavior,

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Speaker 1: and I would imagine that type of manipulation is what

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Speaker 1: she's doing behind bars. Alexis torres Chuck exactly. She is

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Speaker 1: able to communicate with people. She has a poisonous pen

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Speaker 1: that she writes to these men with, and she flirts

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Speaker 1: with them, and and she sends she's an artist, and

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Speaker 1: you're sending drawings, and these men are falling for it,

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Speaker 1: and they still still are in love with her and

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Speaker 1: still support her, and she's still manipulating people from behind bars. Well,

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Speaker 1: they're falling for it. Karen Smith, when I'm forensics expert,

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Speaker 1: joining me out of the Florida jurisdiction, Karen Smith, when

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Speaker 1: I say cold and calculated, it's like a black widow,

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Speaker 1: a spider in a web. She kills Travick's Alexander's I

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Speaker 1: recall twenty plus stab wounds and then a gunshot wound

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Speaker 1: to the head, leaves him there when he rejects her.

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Speaker 1: What happened as I recall the testimony, Karen, and you've

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Speaker 1: followed it closely. They had a love slash sex relationship,

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Speaker 1: he broke up, he asked another woman to go on

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Speaker 1: a camcoon trip with him. Arius drives hours across the

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Speaker 1: desert with gas cans full of gas in her car,

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Speaker 1: leaving no trail, which says to me she intended to

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Speaker 1: kill him. Goes in and has a marathon day of

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Speaker 1: sex with Travis Alexander, and then when he refuses to

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Speaker 1: disinvite the new woman on the vacation, she stabs him

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Speaker 1: twenty plus times and shoots him in the head and

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Speaker 1: leaves him crosses the desert again to get hurt to

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Speaker 1: her new boyfriend and literally hops on top of him.

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Speaker 1: When I say cold and calculated, please Karen Smith, you're

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Speaker 1: the forensics expert, describe the Travis Alexander murder, saying I

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Speaker 1: would qualify it as a frenzy nancy. It was very,

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Speaker 1: very bloody. There was impact spatter in a number of locations.

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Speaker 1: Travis Alexander was found slumped in a small shower stall.

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Speaker 1: He had been stabbed somewhere between and twenty nine times.

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Speaker 1: Even the medical examiner couldn't count them all. And then

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Speaker 1: he was shot in the head, probably post mortem as

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Speaker 1: a coup de gras. His jugular vein, his carotid artery,

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Speaker 1: his trachea were all sliced open. In other words, she

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Speaker 1: split his throat from you know, side to side and

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Speaker 1: left him there. It was an extraordinarily bloody scene. There

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Speaker 1: were a lot of forensics that were collected at the scene.

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Speaker 1: And you know, this just goes to show that when

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Speaker 1: you stab somebody to twenty nine times, that's that goes

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Speaker 1: to show somebody's mental state. When they go to this house,

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Speaker 1: she drove across the desert, she goes to the house,

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Speaker 1: she stabs him all of these times and then shoots

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Speaker 1: them in the head. You tell me what somebody's thinking

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Speaker 1: writing love letters to a person like that. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Listen to testimony at Jodi arias is murder trial regarding

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Speaker 1: her very active love life message you're old. What did

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Speaker 1: that mean to be? There some history behind that? Yes?

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Speaker 1: What's that history? Sometimes he would call me out when

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Speaker 1: we were having six Is that one of those things

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Speaker 1: that made you feel special? Or how did you feel

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Speaker 1: when he would refer to you as lt in bad? Well,

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Speaker 1: he wasn't saying it as an insult, so I just felt.

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Speaker 1: I don't really remember how I felt, but I just

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Speaker 1: knew that that he was enjoying himself. He says he

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Speaker 1: wants to send one down your throat and another on

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Speaker 1: your face. What did that mean to you? Um oral

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Speaker 1: sex and ejaculating in you? Yeah? Yes. He also says

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Speaker 1: you're going to get taken like you have never been

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Speaker 1: taken before. What did that mean to you? M um

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Speaker 1: mm hmm. We're always trying to top ourselves, like go

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Speaker 1: a little bit farther than the last time, And usually

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Speaker 1: he would come up with some creative ideas. So most

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Speaker 1: of the time I was game for it. What's the

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Speaker 1: time you're what? Okay? But how about feeling like you've

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Speaker 1: been raped? But you will enjoyed every delightful moment of it.

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Speaker 1: Did you want to feel like you were raped? No?

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Speaker 1: O mhmm, So you're accurate here. He also says you'll

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Speaker 1: rejoice in being a whore. That sole purpose in life

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Speaker 1: is to be mine, to have animal sex with, and

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Speaker 1: to please me in any way I desire. Was it

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Speaker 1: your ultimate goal of life to be Mr Alexander's for

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Speaker 1: based on what you said before, you were interested in

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Speaker 1: the faun and affectionate feelings you've got from him being

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Speaker 1: happy right certainly not being as for well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: that wasn't like how I would have put it, but

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Speaker 1: that's that's how he put it. Right Joining me right

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Speaker 1: now is renowned defense attorney Jason Oceans. Jason, even knowing

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Speaker 1: what we know about the murder of Travis Alexander, notorious

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Speaker 1: killer Jodi Arius reportedly finds love behind bars, and it's

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Speaker 1: even has even been planning a prison wedding As she

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Speaker 1: serves life behind bars for murdering her boyfriend. She apparently

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Speaker 1: has fallen in love with one of her many admirers

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Speaker 1: and has been planning, according to reports, a fairytale wedding

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Speaker 1: behind bars. She is drowned with messages from men, gets

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Speaker 1: marriage proposals on a weekly basis. She hopes to wed

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Speaker 1: somebody and has said to want family and friends to

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Speaker 1: join at the at the jail for the wedding. And

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Speaker 1: in fact, they do have weddings behind bars about a

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Speaker 1: fifty minute wedding held in the prison cafeteria with cupcakes

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Speaker 1: for a wedding cake. Okay, Jason Oeshans, help me out

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Speaker 1: what man it is, right mind would be interested in

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Speaker 1: marrying Jodi Arius or even exchanging love letters? And is

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Speaker 1: it legal? Jason harm, no foul. Notwithstanding the severity of

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Speaker 1: anyone's prime notoriety for prisoners, both locally and nationally, attracts

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Speaker 1: the the whackpack, if you will. Uh and uh wait

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Speaker 1: what did you just say? It attracts the whack pack,

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Speaker 1: the whack pack. W h A c K pack. That's

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Speaker 1: a that's a group of followers of Howard Stern And uh.

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Speaker 1: It's been commented on that one of the regulars communicates

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Speaker 1: with Jody Areas. So, you know, strange people attract strange.

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Speaker 1: You know, pent House Uh. But by the same token

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Speaker 1: to some degree, Uh, it gives those inside something to do,

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Speaker 1: keeps them occupied and engaging. Perhaps not in uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: other criminality within the prison system, assaults and things of

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Speaker 1: that nature. I don't I don't follow anything from a

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Speaker 1: legal perspective wrong with consensual visits. Uh, it's certainly uh

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't know that it's encouraged. But every

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Speaker 1: every prison, as you know, provides for that. Uh And

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, wedding ceremonies. So it's strange uh and whacky. Well,

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Speaker 1: the jail has stated Jason ocean Is that they don't

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Speaker 1: know anything about a prison wedding yet. But apparently Jodi

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Speaker 1: Arius has a very active love life and is getting

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Speaker 1: thousands of dollars from these love lorn men Alexis to rest,

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Speaker 1: she investigative reporter with rinar online dot com. How is

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Speaker 1: this happening? Is she still drawing her so called art

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Speaker 1: a sketching over other people's other people's stuff? Um? Is

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Speaker 1: she still doing her art? And I'm more interested in

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Speaker 1: do you think a wedding, a jail house wedding is

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Speaker 1: possible for areas she is still doing her art now

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Speaker 1: she's not allowed to sell it anymore, because then she

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Speaker 1: would have to give the proceeds to Travis's family, and

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Speaker 1: she doesn't want to do that. So she is drawing

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Speaker 1: for people and secretly sending it out. So she could

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Speaker 1: be drawing anything these days. She could draw her own

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Speaker 1: nude body if she wanted to. But why did you

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Speaker 1: have to put that in my head, Alexis for Pete's Like,

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Speaker 1: I was right in the middle of sippings. I'm hot, Dean,

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Speaker 1: you had to talk about areas drawing her own nude body.

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Speaker 1: I mean, really, she is all about sex and that

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Speaker 1: is probably the only thing that she has to still

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Speaker 1: share with people. And because we don't get to see

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Speaker 1: her anymore, she's locked up in this maximum security prison.

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Speaker 1: She still is in the maximum limits. He hasn't earned

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Speaker 1: any good favor, so she hasn't been lowered down any

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Speaker 1: lower behind bars. Arizona is one of the strictest prison

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Speaker 1: systems in the country, and they are not going to

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Speaker 1: allow her to have conjugal visits or get married behind bars. Okay,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to Jodi ariusview. You are serious to yourself.

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Speaker 1: I am hard, right, I'm just sorry. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: that's so debasing it. We are now crossing the country

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Speaker 1: more strange prison marriages. How can people have love lives

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Speaker 1: behind bars, especially when you're convicted of double murder. No,

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Speaker 1: I'm not talking about Jodi Arius. I'm talking now about

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Speaker 1: the Menendez brothers to Alexis Torres Chuck investigative reporter, writer

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Speaker 1: online dot com. I mean, have they been married and

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Speaker 1: divorced and remarried? Do I have that straight repet my

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Speaker 1: getting my murderers mixed up? You're not. It's hard with

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Speaker 1: two brothers. The one Eric got married to a woman,

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Speaker 1: he's still married. But then Lyle got married to a model,

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Speaker 1: got divorced and a model. Now, say you and I

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Speaker 1: may have different terms, different definitions of what a model is.

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Speaker 1: Now their models um that model their hands. There aren't

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Speaker 1: models that you know they're on the front of Vogue.

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Speaker 1: Then there are models that are like standing in the

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Speaker 1: window of sexy Lingerie, enter at your own risk through

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Speaker 1: the back door. So what kind of model are you

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Speaker 1: talking about? Alexis? She did a couple of photo shoots.

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Speaker 1: She she's not Cindy Crawford or Kate Moss. Well, I

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Speaker 1: gotta give her this. I mean, I haven't done any

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Speaker 1: modeling photo shoots. So I'll give her that much. So

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Speaker 1: tell me, let's get off the modeling question and onto

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Speaker 1: the marriage question. So she married Lyle In. They started

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Speaker 1: out as pen pals. They got married, and then they

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Speaker 1: got divorced, and he actually got married again in two

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Speaker 1: thousand three, not even ten years later, he had moved

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Speaker 1: on to another woman and got marry Let's review the

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Speaker 1: facts of the Menendez brothers murders. Lyle and Eric Menendez

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Speaker 1: were convicted of murdering their mother and their father brutally.

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Speaker 1: As the mother and father sat in front of the

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Speaker 1: TV set watching TV and having a bowl of ice cream,

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Speaker 1: they were shot multiple times. The mother tried to get

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Speaker 1: away and they chased her down the hall and continued

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Speaker 1: to shoot her. They were born with silver spoons in

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Speaker 1: their mouths, and they immediately after the shootings went out,

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Speaker 1: bought multiple brand new cars, got a full time tennis

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Speaker 1: coach to help them with their tennis game. One bought

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Speaker 1: a condo. I mean, it just goes on and on

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Speaker 1: and on. Expensive watches and jewelry and their quote, grief,

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Speaker 1: is that the way you recall the evidence? Jason Oceans, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the the evidence is clearly spoken

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Speaker 1: for itself. It was a brutal, brutal motor that that

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Speaker 1: silver spoon went them into a jaded perspective. And uh,

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Speaker 1: you know the attraction of those who are you know,

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Speaker 1: in the gneral public attractive to this sickness is mind boggling,

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Speaker 1: but relentlessly seems to go forward. The wacky continue to

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Speaker 1: attract the wacky. Now in their defense, they did they

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Speaker 1: did claim Jason, that the father had molested them. One

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Speaker 1: brother also claimed the other brother molested him. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the molestation charges were made. Long story short, they were

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Speaker 1: convicted of double murder and they have found love behind bars.

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Speaker 1: Your recollections, correct, Jason, So alexis torres Chuck. Who are

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Speaker 1: the women that have fallen for the Menendez brothers? Lyles

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Speaker 1: one that's been married twice. He married Tammy, the former model.

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Speaker 1: They got married, which was not long after his case.

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Speaker 1: This is this is right away, you know, he'd only

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Speaker 1: been in jail a little while, and then they got divorced.

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Speaker 1: So in two thousand and three he married a woman

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Speaker 1: named Rebecca Sneed. She is unfortunately for Lyle, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know if he knew this when they got married,

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Speaker 1: but California does not allow conjugal visits for people who

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Speaker 1: have a life sentence in prison, So they've never been

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Speaker 1: able to consummate their marriage. They don't have children together, um,

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Speaker 1: and it's all. They can visit each other in person,

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Speaker 1: and they can write to each other, but they cannot

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Speaker 1: have sex. I mean, who would want to, Karen Stark,

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Speaker 1: They would want to. They would definitely want to. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what woman in and right mom would want to have

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Speaker 1: sex with a Menandez. Actually, before you answer that question,

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Speaker 1: they're not in their right mind. Lyle Menendez speaking to ABC,

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Speaker 1: he finds he can have a healthy marriage that has

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Speaker 1: built around conversation. Take a listen to Tammy Menendez speaking now,

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Speaker 1: who married Eric Menandez double killer. I didn't set out

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Speaker 1: to have a relationship with Eric, but it's something that happened.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I wrote one letter to him and

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Speaker 1: he wrote back, and I went to visit him in prison.

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Speaker 1: In our relationship developed, and in fact, in one of

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Speaker 1: his letters he had written and said that he had

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Speaker 1: a girlfriend for a couple of years, and I kind

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Speaker 1: of said, it's so sad that he thinks he has

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Speaker 1: a girlfriend. So I understand where the public's view is

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Speaker 1: coming from but um, I do get emotional support from Eric. Um,

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Speaker 1: he's my best friend. You'd be surprised, um, how well

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Speaker 1: you can get to know somebody through letters. He became

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Speaker 1: a really good friend of mine, and then after I

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Speaker 1: met him, things you got more and more intense. That

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Speaker 1: is from NBC's Dateline as they interviewed Tammy Menendez back

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Speaker 1: to Karen Stark, New York psychologist Karen, why would someone

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Speaker 1: want a marriage with Lyle Menindez or Eric Menindez. There

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Speaker 1: are a number of factors, Nancy. If you think about

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Speaker 1: the fact that these brothers became very famous, and even

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Speaker 1: though they were infamous, that appealing to a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: Just that alone. That they're married to someone who is

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Speaker 1: so well known and has been on television, so that's

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Speaker 1: a factor. There's also the factor that they can't have sex,

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Speaker 1: and so if it's somebody who can't be intimate and

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Speaker 1: has attachment issues, this is perfect. They don't ever really

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Speaker 1: have to engage in the physical act. It's also very safe.

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Speaker 1: These women don't have to wonder about whether their husband

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Speaker 1: is cheating on them. Where is he right now? They

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Speaker 1: know exactly where he is and they're safe in terms

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Speaker 1: of not having to be with each other every day,

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Speaker 1: deal with issues that all married couples have to deal with.

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Speaker 1: You know, does the cup to stay in the sink

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Speaker 1: or go in the dishwasher? You know the things that

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Speaker 1: everyone has to deal with living with another person. This

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Speaker 1: is all pretty much perfect in terms of their needs

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Speaker 1: during the visit. There's no just holding hands and you

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Speaker 1: can kiss when you come into the visiting room and

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Speaker 1: when you leave. You know, is she crazy? Is she nuts?

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Speaker 1: You know, I get all that and so um. It

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Speaker 1: has been a very emotional experience. The only one that

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Speaker 1: supports me as my mother and his family is supportive,

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Speaker 1: but other than that, it is very difficult. That is

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Speaker 1: from NBC's Dateline as they interviewed Tammy Menendez. She has

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Speaker 1: married Ary. They've never spent time outside of prison walls,

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Speaker 1: but according to her, that does not limit their love.

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Speaker 1: Karen Stark, let me ask you, what are the benefits

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Speaker 1: of being married to a murderer who is doing life

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Speaker 1: behind bars? Well, if you think of that, at Nancy,

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Speaker 1: she never has to deal with the kinds of things

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Speaker 1: that people normally have to deal within a relationship. So

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Speaker 1: her relationship with Eric can always stay in this best

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Speaker 1: friend mode that she's talking about. It can stay in

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Speaker 1: the early stages when you're first with someone. You're very

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Speaker 1: intoxicated before you actually get down to the business of

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Speaker 1: knowing another person. And it's just a very appealing for

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Speaker 1: some people who can't have normal relationships. This is very

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Speaker 1: appealing and safe. Take a listen to Tammy Menandez speaking

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Speaker 1: now who married Eric Menandez double killer. I'm not a killer.

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Speaker 1: I never was. It's not who I am. But you

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Speaker 1: killed your parents, That's that's true. But I'm not a murderer.

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Speaker 1: It troubles me. But I do know the person that

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Speaker 1: Eric is I and I know his heart, I know

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Speaker 1: his soul, and I do know what happened that night,

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Speaker 1: and I do understand. I believe that with within everybody,

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Speaker 1: um it put in certain certain circumstances, you will, you know,

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Speaker 1: be able to kill somebody. I mean, I do believe

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Speaker 1: that Eric is a very good person. So bottom line,

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Speaker 1: what she's saying is that everybody can be a killer.

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Speaker 1: Karen Smith, take a listen to this nine one one

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Speaker 1: called a night that the Menendez mom and dad we're

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Speaker 1: brutally murdered to Karen Smith forensics expert joining us, Karen,

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Speaker 1: could you describe the murder scene at the Menendez home, Yes,

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Speaker 1: you talk about cold blooded murder. Um. Jose and Kitty

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Speaker 1: Menendez were in their living room. They were relaxing, and

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Speaker 1: the two brothers burst in with a twelve gauge shotgun

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Speaker 1: and Jose was gunned down point blank in the back

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Speaker 1: of his head, making him nearly unrecognizable. Kitty was shot

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Speaker 1: in the leg as she tried to run away. She

401
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: slipped in her own blood and was gunned down in

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Speaker 1: the arm, chest, in face as she lay helpless on

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Speaker 1: the floor. And something I'd like to point out, these

404
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: brothers planned the attack. They bought the shotgun in advance

405
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Speaker 1: with a fake I d but this is a twelve

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Speaker 1: gage shotgun. This isn't a handgun, a revolver. A twelve

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00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 1: gage shotgun requires you to rack another round into that

408
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: shotgun before you can pull the trigger again. So think

409
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: about that. You fire the gun, you have to rerack it,

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Speaker 1: aim it, fire, rerack it, aim it, and fire. Every

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Speaker 1: single time they pumped around into their own parents. I

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Speaker 1: cannot imagine going into a crime scene more heinous than

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Speaker 1: to Jason notions, veteran defense attorney practicing out of New York,

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Speaker 1: New Jersey and the entire Tri state area. Jason, how,

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Speaker 1: I mean, how could have you ever seen or known

416
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Speaker 1: of a woman being attracted to somebody already conveyed to

417
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Speaker 1: behind bars, jailhouse, girl friends and so forth. We've seen them,

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Speaker 1: but normally they were in existence before the murder. Now

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Speaker 1: it's a it's as as Dr Stark, as Karen tells you,

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Speaker 1: is a incredible fascination with the with the disturbed. It's

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Speaker 1: gone on for years. Um, it's a sick phenomenon. I

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Speaker 1: understand the psychology of why people are attracted, but once

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Speaker 1: you've been engaged in such a heinous type of act, uh,

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00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: it boggles the mind as to why people engage in

425
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: something like that. Take a listen to this. This is

426
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: Timmy Menendez talking about her marriage to double kill er

427
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: Eric Menendez. I never had that before. You realize, with

428
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: all due respect, that a lot of people think you much.

429
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: Oh yes, I've heard it before many times. If I

430
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: just say to you, why, what do you say? UM?

431
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: My answer to that is I fell in love with

432
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: him unexpectedly, and it's quite a long journey that sled

433
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: me to their and now I'm very happy. Have you

434
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: ever had sex with Eric? No, your marriage has never

435
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: been consummated. Now when you see Eric that you were

436
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: allowed to kiss him. We can hog and kiss on

437
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: the way out and hold hands during the visit, and

438
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: the holding of the hands during the visage is everything.

439
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: I can't offer her, most of the things that another

440
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: husband can in terms of being with her physically and

441
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: being able to to hold her in that sense. What

442
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: I can offer her is is unconditional and complete devotion

443
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: and love. She is everything you are hearing Barbara Walter

444
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: speaking with Mrs Menandez, and that was Menandez himself on

445
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: the fund. That's Barbara Walters from ABC. It's beyond anything

446
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: I can understand. Not the fact that I mean there

447
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: there are married couples, couples of all sorts all over

448
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: the world who can't consummate their relationship due to illness,

449
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: due to UH, someone being paralyzed, due to all sorts

450
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: of mental or physical issues. There are people separated by distance,

451
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: thousands of miles apart, that are in love. So cogugal

452
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: visits are not the be all end all to to

453
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: true love. To me, the hurdle is getting past the

454
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: double murders of your mother and father. But the Menendez

455
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: brothers and Jodi Arius are really the tip of the iceberg.

456
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: What about Charles Manson? Because I love him, um, and

457
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,959
Speaker 1: I've somehow, I've got half a brain, Um that I

458
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: can see that he is the one that knows what's

459
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:58,239
Speaker 1: going on. He's the one that that is in the

460
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: truth whenever nobody else's. And what is it about him

461
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: compared to other people you've met in your lifetime that

462
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: makes him so unique and different? Um? Charlie always tells

463
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: the truth no matter what. There's so many jail house

464
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: marriages and jailhouse love relationships. I hardly know where to start.

465
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: But it's like drinking from a fire hydra. There's just

466
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: too much to take in in a single swallow. Okay,

467
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: let me go to Charles Manson. I didn't even know

468
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: he had a love relationship behind bars. Joining me right

469
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: now is Alan Duke? Alan? Charles Manson had a love

470
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: life behind bars? Well, yes he did now. Although he

471
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: was married twice before the Manson murders and his his

472
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: death sentence, he actually got a marriage license while in prison.

473
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: More recently, in he got a marriage license with Afton

474
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: Elaine Burton, and they never actually went through with the ceremony,

475
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: so they were not legally married. But she was a

476
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: groupie who moved to the area, knew the prison just

477
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: to be near him, and would visit him every moment

478
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 1: that she could. It turned out that while he said

479
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: that it wasn't a real love of real relationship, it

480
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: turned out that she wanted to marry him so she

481
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: could claim his body after his death and put it

482
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 1: in a glass case on display for the world to see.

483
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: So that's another reason for it behind the bars marriage.

484
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: The first Mrs Charles Manson was Rosalie Jean Willis, a

485
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:44,439
Speaker 1: teenage hospital waitress. They tied the knot back in when

486
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: Manson was between prison sentences. Okay, that's certainly something to

487
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: think about. Um, let me think they were married, and

488
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,720
Speaker 1: then it goes on. Six years later, Manson his cult

489
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: of groupies the family committed their brutal murders. He ends

490
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: up behind bars again, this time for the rest of

491
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: his life. But there were future wives. The woman aft In,

492
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: Elaine Burton, years old at the time, tells Rolling Stone

493
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: that she and Manson we're going to get married. She

494
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: even moved to California to be near him and would

495
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: regularly visit him for hours and hours and hours. It's

496
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: so obvious that Charles Manson was real roaded, she tells,

497
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: seeing and she didn't care what people thought of her.

498
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 1: I am Charles Manson's wife, wife. Are you married? The

499
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: paperwork hasn't gone through yet, but we already consider each

500
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 1: other to be a husband and wife. Are you in love? Okay?

501
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: Why would I marry somebody? People get married for all

502
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: kinds of different reasons. Why wouldn't people think it crazy?

503
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: I really don't care. Star says she first discovered Manson

504
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:12,720
Speaker 1: at sixteen, drawn to something Manson calls at wa water

505
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: are there in the water and and live and the

506
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: RNA and women at stands for air, trees, water and animals.

507
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: You know that nine hundred redwood tree get cut down

508
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 1: every day. Wood trees a thousand years of piece. That's

509
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: nine hundred thousand years of sunlight you're taking off this planet.

510
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: The only thing that he's trying to manificate his planting

511
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: trees and cleaning up there. But after seven years living

512
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: near Manson's prison, visiting him regularly, Star's main focus has

513
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: switched to clearing his name. It's just not a true story.

514
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: It's completely fabricated. Manson has always maintained his innocence and

515
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: he called Star from prison. But for our interview to

516
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: stress it again, our all all her water Star is

517
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,359
Speaker 1: so loyal that when Manson was tossed into solitary confinement,

518
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: she shaved her head and carved an ex in her forehead.

519
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: It's a show of support. You're just like when they

520
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: did it back in v whatever. That was Ted Rowlands

521
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: on CNN interviewing the alleged Mrs Charles Manson, and of

522
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: course that was Charles Manson going off on saving the environment.

523
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: But listen to what happened at the time of the

524
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: Manson murders. In a scene described by one investigator as

525
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: reminiscent of a weird religious rite, five persons, including actress

526
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: Sharon Tate, were found dead at the home of Miss

527
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: Tape and her husband screamed a reactor, Roman Posky. Miss Tate,

528
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 1: who started in Valley of the Dolls, was eight months

529
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: pregnant and was found in a bikini type nightgown with

530
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:13,399
Speaker 1: a rope around. Sounds of Mr La Bianca dying came

531
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: into the bedroom, horrible guttural sounds. She started calling out

532
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: to him and yelling for him, and UM, at that moment,

533
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: for a brief moment, yeah, I realized, you know, these

534
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,720
Speaker 1: are people that love each other. And then text earned

535
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 1: me around and handed me the knife and he said

536
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 1: do something because Manson had told him to make sure

537
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: that all of us got our hands dirty. And UM,

538
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 1: I stabbed Mrs la Bianca the lower back about sixteen times,

539
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: and there was no pity, no mercy. Well were the

540
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: bodies wound all in one room? No. Two of the

541
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 1: bodies were found in the inside the house, one in

542
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: the vehicle and two on the front lawn. Stephen parents said,

543
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: please don't kill me, Please don't kill me. I'm on

544
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 1: my way out. I won't tell anybody. Just let me live.

545
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 1: And Watson shot him four times at point blank range.

546
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: And that begins the savagery. When the four killers break

547
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: into the house, they cut through a screen window and

548
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 1: sneak in that way. They find wotech for Kowski sleeping

549
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: on a couch in the living room. Back in the bedrooms,

550
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 1: Abigail Folder reading a book in bed, J. C. Bring

551
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: and Sharon Tate in her bedroom sitting on the bed

552
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: talking Texas. Watson walked in and he said, I am

553
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: the devil, and I'm here to do the devil's work.

554
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: Then Texas, we're going to kill What began to happen

555
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: as a scuffle started taking place between Tax and J. C.

556
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: Bren J C. Brin was very protective of Sharon and said, no,

557
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: you know, she's eight and a half months pregnant. She

558
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:19,240
Speaker 1: against it on the floor and Watson then stabbed him,

559
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 1: shot him, killing him, and then panneumonium broke loose when

560
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 1: there was an attempt to tie everyone up. Eventually, Abigail

561
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: Folder started to get herself undone and she took off.

562
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: Abigail Folger, we'll take Frankowski make a break forward out

563
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: in the lawn. I left and followed her. I ran

564
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: after her with an upraised knife, and we went out

565
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 1: through a back door and I ran her down and

566
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: I began to stab her. I remember her saying I'm

567
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 1: already dead. Abigail Folger ended up getting steps twenty eight times.

568
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 1: Watson jumped on Forkowski on the lawn, repeatedly stabbed him

569
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: and hit him over the head with the gun, but

570
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 1: Frikowski ended up getting stabbed fifty one times. Susan Cans

571
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: stabbed Sharon Tate to death and told her she was

572
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: going to do it. She talked to the media about

573
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: killing Sharon Tate. I felt nothing. I felt absolutely nothing

574
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: for her. Um she begged for her life and for

575
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 1: the life of thing. I never told anybody to do

576
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: anything other than what they wanted to do. So there

577
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: is proof that even Charles Manson had love behind bars.

578
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: Let's turn to Yourn Vanderslute. No jail house marriage episode

579
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: would be complete without that. You're in Vanderslute, as we

580
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: all know. Murdered Natalie Holloway in Aruba. Natalie Holloway, honor

581
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,959
Speaker 1: student who goes on a senior school trip and never

582
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 1: comes home. She was murdered. He manages to escape free

583
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: from Aruba when Aruba would not proceed with murder charges

584
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 1: and murder another young woman, Stephanie Tassiana Flores. He goes

585
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: to jail for that murder, a brutal murder where he

586
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: attacks and kills her their hotel room. His hotel room

587
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: covered in blood. As she's lying there dead in the floor,

588
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: he goes and gets coffee in Danish and eats it

589
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,959
Speaker 1: beside her dead cold body. Well, he goes to jail

590
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,720
Speaker 1: for that, but behind bars, he manages to get married

591
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 1: and not only that, have a baby. What happened? Alan?

592
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: Do you he married twenty five year old laid Up Figaroa,

593
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 1: who was a trainee accountant in Peru, and apparently they

594
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: were having a relationship behind bars because she ended up

595
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: getting pregnant and they got married. The baby was born

596
00:42:54,880 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: in that baby is named Dues. She named after vendor

597
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 1: Slut's grandmother. I'm sure the grandmother would be so proud.

598
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: We're talking about two time killer yourn Vanderslout becoming a

599
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 1: father after his wife gives birth to a baby girl.

600
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: The baby was born in Lima, named Dushy by his

601
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: wife after yourn Vanderslut's grandmother. He's serving a twenty eight

602
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: year prison sentence for killing a business student that he

603
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 1: meets in a casino. But my question is how does

604
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: he find love behind bars? Jason Oceans, I know you

605
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: recall the Yourn vander Slute case. What can you tell

606
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: us about the disappearance and death of Natalie Holloway? Jason, Well,

607
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 1: the student was Obama was down there on a school

608
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: trip and was Yourn and some of his friends and

609
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: body was never discovered, but everything pointed to him. Uh,

610
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,320
Speaker 1: so it gained national coverage. Uh. And then he escaped

611
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: and seemingly admitted it at at some point, though he

612
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: was never prosecuted for it. But and then there was Stephanie,

613
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: that's right. And then and then you know, meets her

614
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: in the you know, a hotel, and you know, brutally

615
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: murdered her. So and convicted, as you said, serving time.

616
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: And you know what's interesting about that, Jason otions is

617
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: that reportedly the argument that brought on the murder is

618
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: she was looking at her iPad or a computer and goes, hey, wait,

619
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,760
Speaker 1: are you the yourn Vanderslute that is connected to Natalie

620
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: Holloway and he murders her. Now believe it or not,

621
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: Jason Oceans, Now, hold on, Jason, you're the veteran defense lawyer.

622
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: I need a shrink on this. Karen Stark New York's psychologists.

623
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: According to Joran Vanderslout's wife, she says, vander Slute is

624
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 1: quote gentle, sensitive kind and no monster. Help me, Karen, Oh,

625
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: that's not a surprise. We should know that by now, Nancy.

626
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,720
Speaker 1: He's a sociopath. He can come up with any personality

627
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,919
Speaker 1: he desires. And so that's one of the things that

628
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: happens is women like this fall for the guy and

629
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: believe that he is really a gentle soul, that he's

630
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: been either like it just was. The Menendez brothers, you

631
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: know that there's a reason why this happened to them.

632
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: They're kind of rescuing these guys and convinced themselves that

633
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,320
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with them. And the men helped because

634
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: they can come across beautifully and act like they are

635
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Speaker 1: perfectly fine and loving and woo you and get you

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Speaker 1: very excited about the idea of being with them. You know,

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Speaker 1: we've been taking You'll look at marriage and love that

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Speaker 1: convicted killers find behind bars in a and kind of

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Speaker 1: an odd way, the way you look at a spider

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Speaker 1: in a cage. But let's think about how the victims

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Speaker 1: families feel about this. The friends and family of the

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Speaker 1: Menendez the friends and family of Natalie Holloway and Stephanie

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Speaker 1: Tasciana Flores, and the Tate family and the Bianca families.

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Speaker 1: How do they feel about this? The family of Travis Alexander.

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Speaker 1: The way that even from behind bars, these killers are

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Speaker 1: manipulating the feelings and the lives of others. Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories signing off goodbye friend,