1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. So we've had this experience 4 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: on the show a number of times where we talk 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: about somebody that we think in a lot of ways 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: is really cool, but then we have to talk about 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: their participation in the eugenics movement yep. I after having 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: that most recently happened with Ellen Sweller Richards, I just 9 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: I wanted to find somebody who was vocally, definitively anti 10 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: eugenics to talk about on the show, and especially I 11 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: wanted to find somebody to talk about who opposed eugenics 12 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: before the Nazi eugenics programs of the nineteen thirties and forties, 13 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: because those programs drew a lot from eugenic programs that 14 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: were already in place, especially in the United States, but 15 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 1: the horrific elements of them also caused the movement to 16 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: fall out of favors. So I was like, I just, 17 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: I want to find somebody who opposed eugenics before that. 18 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: And the person that I ultimately decided to talk about 19 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: was G. K. Chesterton. G K. Chesterton was just a 20 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: prolific writer across a lot of genres, including fiction, poetry, journalism, 21 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: literary criticism, biography, social criticism, theology, and Christian apologetics. A 22 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: lot of his work incorporated elements of more than one 23 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: of those things simultaneously. Today, his best known work is 24 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: probably the Father Brown series that was adapted for film 25 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty four and then for TV starting in 26 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen. Coincidentally, it's tenth series on BBC one is 27 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: going to be rapping up right around the time that 28 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: this episode airs, which I did. I just say it's 29 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: a coincidence. That was a coincidence. This is such a 30 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: broad collection of work, and there's so much of it 31 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: that it's impossible to touch on everything in one episode 32 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: or even multiple episodes. Like one of the most recent 33 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: biographies of GK. Chesterton is almost seven hundred and fifty 34 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: pages long, and that still had to choose which parts 35 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: of it to focus on. Today we are really focused 36 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: on the highlights of Chesterton's life and work, his vocal 37 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: criticism of eugenics. Just because he was a vocal critic 38 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: of eugenics, unfortunately does not mean he was a perfect person. 39 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: Are we talking about some of that also, and also 40 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: I really think there will probably be some neurodivergent folks 41 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: in the audience who will see themselves reflected in parts 42 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: of G. K. Chesterton's story, or maybe he will remind 43 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: you of someone else in your life. As we've said 44 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: a bunch of time on the show, it is really 45 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: tricky to diagnose somebody who is not here, and there 46 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: are ethical questions about even trying to do that. Most 47 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: of what I found related to this seemed pretty speculative. 48 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: So we are not going to try to armchair diagnose GK. Chesterton, 49 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: But if he resonates with you, you're not taking that 50 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: away either. Gilbert Keith Chesterton was born in London on 51 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: May twenty ninth, eighteen seventy four, the second child of 52 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: Edward and Marie Grojeene Chesterton. His older sister died when 53 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: he was only three, so he didn't have a very 54 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: clear memory of her. His younger brother, Cecil Edward, was 55 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: born in eighteen seventy nine. The Chesterton's were a comfortable 56 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: middle class family, and Gilbert's parents encouraged him to pursue 57 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: his interests. Gilbert started talking when he was around three, 58 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: and he started reading when he was eight or nine, 59 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: so a little later than a lot of his peers. 60 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: But once he started learning to read, this really became 61 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: a lifelong passion. He was also described as a day 62 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: dreamer and kind of messy and disorganized. People thought he 63 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: was bright, but he also only did well in the 64 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: school subjects that were interesting to him. One of his 65 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: teachers described him as quote a great blunderer with much intelligence, 66 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: which honestly I kind of love. In eighteen eighty seven, 67 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: Chesterton entered Saint Paul's School in London. That is an 68 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: independent day school that dates back to fifteen o nine, 69 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: and by this point it had a growing reputation for 70 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: academic excellence. He became a member of the school's debate 71 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: society and found that he really loved to argue. In 72 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety two, Chesterton moved on to the Slade School 73 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: of Fine Art at University College London, where he also 74 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: took courses in literature, French and Latin, and he seems 75 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: to have found this a lot harder than his earlier 76 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 1: education had been, in part because he still was mostly 77 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 1: wanting to focus on what naturally held his interest. He 78 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: also went through some kind of spiritual or mental health crisis. 79 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: It may have had elements of both of that. His 80 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: parents were Unitarian, and his family had never been particularly religious, 81 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,799 Speaker 1: but he started breaking away from that during this period 82 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: he experimented with spiritualism, including playing with a weegiaboard, and 83 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: eventually you started exploring more orthodox Christianity. And that we're 84 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: saying that as lowercase Orthodox, meaning conforming to established doctrines 85 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: and creeds, not capital o Orthodox like the Eastern Orthodox Church. 86 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: Chestertown later described this period of crisis as quote my 87 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: period of madness, and whatever exactly it was it was 88 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: going on, it was enough that other people in his 89 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: life were worried about his well being. In eighteen ninety five, 90 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: Chesterton left college and started working in publishing. He had 91 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: already written his first novel, Basil Howe, although it wasn't 92 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 1: published until it was rediscovered in a trunk almost a 93 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: hundred years later. He was also writing essays, columns and 94 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: reviews for various publications, including a journal called The Speaker 95 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: that some of his friends had started, and the London 96 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,799 Speaker 1: Daily News. In eighteen ninety six, he met a woman 97 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: named Francis Alice Blogg, who was a writer as well, 98 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 1: particularly poetry and plays. They got married five years later 99 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: on June twenty eight, nineteen oh one, and she played 100 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: a huge role in his life and work. When they met, 101 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: she was a devout Anglo Catholic. That's a movement that 102 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: developed in the nineteenth century and really emphasized the Catholic 103 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: roots of the Anglican Church. She was really a big 104 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: part of Chesterton's religious exploration. She also encouraged his work 105 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,239 Speaker 1: as a writer, eventually to the point of acting almost 106 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: as his manner. At the same time, though she was 107 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: very private. Toward the end of his life, she encouraged 108 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: him to write his autobiography, but she really stressed that 109 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: she did not want to be in it. During the 110 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: five years between when Gilbert and Francis met and when 111 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: they got married, he had started to establish himself as 112 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: a writer and he was earning more money from his work. 113 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: This included two volumes of poetry published in nineteen hundred, 114 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: The Wild Night and Other Poems and Graybeards at Play, 115 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: Literature and Art for Old Gentleman. Rhymes and Sketches by 116 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: Gilbert Chesterton. I love that title. Yeah, it's a lot 117 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: of these things are in the public domain and you 118 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: can find them online, and this one had like a 119 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: brief little stanzas of poetry opposite sketches that he had done. 120 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: During this time, he had also met poet and essayist 121 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: Hilaire Bellock, and the two men formed a literary and 122 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: journalistic partnership that lasted for the rest of Chesterton's life. 123 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: They were close friends who wrote about a lot of 124 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: the same subjects, and a lot of the time they 125 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: had the same opinions on those subjects. This was to 126 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: the point that George Bernard Shaw eventually described them as 127 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: one sort of chimera that Chester Bellock. He did this 128 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: during an essay writing dispute that involved the two of them, 129 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: George Bernard Shaw and H. G. Wells. Chesterton had a 130 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: lot of very strong political opinions, although those opinions also 131 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: evolved over the course of his life. Like he definitely 132 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: was not a pacifist, but he was opposed to the 133 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: Boer War, both to the war itself and to the 134 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: concentration camps that we talked about in our episodes on 135 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: Emily Hobhouse last year. He was what's known as a 136 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: little Englander, basically someone who thought that England should focus 137 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: on what was going on within its own borders, rather 138 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: than expanding the British Empire, and he thought the Boers 139 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: had the right to be where they were without British interference. 140 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: Later on, though, he supported England's involvement in World War One, 141 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: basically seeing Germany's expansion as a greater evil than Britain's. 142 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: He was also deeply critical of capitalism for all of 143 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: his life, with some aspects of that shifting over time 144 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: as well, Like he always thought that capitalism was exploitive 145 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: of poor and working people, and that's something that we'll 146 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: talk about more when we get to his writing on eugenics, 147 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: but over time his opinion changed on what he thought 148 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: should be done about it. Initially he advocated socialism as 149 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: a more equitable system than capitalism. Later on, though he 150 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: came to be very critical of socialism as well, describing 151 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: it as another form of tyranny. Eventually, he and Hilare 152 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: Bellack advocated distributism. So, in Chesterton's view, capitalism put most 153 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: of the wealth and the power under the control of 154 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: a few people, and socialism put all that wealth and 155 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: power under control of the state. But in distributism it 156 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: would be divided up and widely distributed among the people. 157 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: By nineteen oh three, Chesterton was respected and well known 158 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: enough as a writer that McMillan Publishing asked him to 159 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: contribute to its Englishmen of Letters series. This was a 160 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: series of literary biographies of prominent English writers written by 161 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: other prominent English writers. Beyond exploring a person's life story, 162 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: literary biographies are meant to dig into the connections between 163 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: a writer's life and their literary work, while also offering 164 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: criticism and analysis of that work and how it relates 165 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: back to that person's life. Chesterton's contribution to this series 166 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: was a biography of Robert Browning. This is a mixed bag, 167 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: pretty sure. He never published anything for McMillan again. It 168 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: sold really well and it was reprinted several times they 169 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: were the following years, and he got some praise for 170 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: the literary criticism involved with it, But when it came 171 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 1: to the biographical facts, a lot of them were wrong. 172 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: He apparently wrote a lot of this from memory without 173 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: double checking details, which we can tell you from doing 174 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: this podcast for ten years now, that is not a 175 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: great way to wind up with an accurate finished product. 176 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: There were also a lot of misquotes in this book, 177 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: some of which he also apparently made from memory. He 178 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: published a biography of Charles Dickens in nineteen oh six, 179 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: Not for McMillan that had a bunch of the same 180 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: pattern of pretty good literary analysis combined with some just 181 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: error riddled biography. During those years, Chesterton also started publishing novels, 182 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: beginning with The Napoleon of notting Hill in nineteen oh four, 183 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: followed by The Man Who Was Thursday A Nightmare in 184 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: nineteen oh eight. These and other novels are often described 185 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: as fantasies or allegories. They drew from his thoughts on distributism, 186 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: as well as his other social and political ideas. The 187 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: Napoleon of notting Hill is set in London in nineteen 188 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: eighty four, and in it, a randomly chosen king decides 189 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: to reorganize the city into medieval city states, leading the 190 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: Provost of notting Hill to raise an army to oppose 191 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: the building of a road. The Man Who Was Thursday 192 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: involves a detective recruited to an anti anarchist police force 193 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: who infiltrates a council of anarchists that use the days 194 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: of the week as their code names, and in addition 195 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: to the biographies and the novels and other articles and 196 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: things that he was writing, he was also publishing influential 197 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: work on religion, theology, and Christian apologetics. This included a 198 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: collection of essays called Heretics that came out in nineteen 199 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: oh five, and then in a follow up called Orthodoxy, 200 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: which came out in nineteen o eight. He described Heretics 201 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 1: as quote a series of hasty but sincere papers. He 202 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: said he had written Orthodoxy in response to criticism of 203 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: that earlier work. People said he had talked about other 204 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,839 Speaker 1: people's views, but he had not laid out his own 205 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: thoughts on religion. This really only scratches the surface of 206 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: Chesterton's written work. At the start of the twentieth century, 207 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: he had become an extremely well known poet, novelist, biographer, 208 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: despite those details that were all wrong and essayist, and 209 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: he was also a visible figure around London. We're going 210 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: to get into event after a sponsor break. By the 211 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: time GK. Chesterton reached his thirties, he had become a 212 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: very distinctive and recognizable character around London, particularly in the 213 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: Fleet Street area, which was home to newspaper offices and publishers, 214 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: as well as taverns and pubs. Chesterton spent a lot 215 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: of time in all of these places, ring over a 216 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: beer and a plate of food, and running up against 217 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: his deadlines, and hob nobbing with other writers seeking out stories. 218 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: He was a very large man in terms of his 219 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: height and his weight, and now that I think about it, 220 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: his personality. He also liked to wear a cloak, a 221 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: large crumpled hat, pathena glasses, and he carried a sword, 222 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: cane and sometimes also a pistol, As had been the 223 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: case in his earliest school years. He continued to be 224 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: described as disorganized and scatter brained. In one widely repeated moment, 225 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: he sent his wife a telegram which read and at 226 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: Market Harbor, where ought eye to be? Her answer was home. 227 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: I guess if you can't text, you sent telegrams. In 228 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: another his newspaper had moved offices and he couldn't remember 229 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: where the new location was, so he had to buy 230 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: a copy of the paper and look up the address 231 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: on the masthead. Who was also a different experience in 232 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: a world that has smartphones. In a review of the 233 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: biography of Robert Browning that we talked about before the break. 234 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: James Douglas described G. K. Chesterton in this way, quote 235 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: whatever mister Chesterton is or is not, at least he 236 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: is idiosyncratic. He is violently, frantically, riotously, ferociously blasphemously himself. 237 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: Later on, Douglas said, quote, most of us spend our 238 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: lives in a miserable attempt to harmonize our personality with 239 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: the great mass of half harmonized personalities around us. Mister 240 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: Chesterton joyously refuses to join in that ancient hypocrisy. He 241 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: does not know the meaning of caution or moderation, of 242 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: the golden mean, or of any of those other complex 243 00:15:54,720 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: artifices which modify, dilute, and equalize average ideas of inions, views, 244 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: and judgments. As we said earlier, Chesterton's wife, Frances, really 245 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: encouraged him in his career, acting almost as his manager, 246 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,359 Speaker 1: and she also seems to have encouraged his most recognizable 247 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: distinguishing treats. But at the same time she was worried 248 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: about his health and the effects that all the food, beer, 249 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: and relentless work were having on it. So in nineteen 250 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: oh nine, when he was thirty five, the Chesterton's moved 251 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: to Beaconsfield in Buckinghamshire to try to get a little 252 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: distance from all that. In nineteen eleven, Chesterton wrote his 253 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: first Father Brown story, The Innocence of Father Brown. Something 254 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: that Chesterton really loved and incorporated extensively in his writing 255 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: was paradox, and this was true of Father Brown as well. 256 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: Chesterton had been inspired by a friend of his father, 257 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: John O'Connor, who was a Catholic priest. Chesterton had realized 258 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: that Father O'Connor, who was a man pursuing a life 259 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: of religious devotion, knew a lot more about crime and 260 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: depravity than most other people, in part because of his 261 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: role as a confessor. The Father Brown stories were by 262 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: far Chesterton's most financially lucrative work, and he used them 263 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: to subsidize his other writing. Often, when he realized that 264 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 1: he needed money, he would write a Father Brown's story 265 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: to earn it. In these stories, along with other stories 266 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: that he wrote that featured detectives, mysteries and crime, wound 267 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: up influencing the detective story genre. Father Brown solved mysteries 268 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: not by deductive reasoning, but by possessing a deep understanding 269 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: of human nature by getting into the mind of the perpetrator. 270 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 1: Chesterton was so influential and respected in this genre that 271 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: when a group of British mystery writers established the Detection Club, 272 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 1: Chesterton was selected as its first president, and that was 273 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: a role that he held until his death. As Chesterton 274 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: started writing the Father Brown series, eugenics movement was gaining 275 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: traction in the US and elsewhere, so as a very 276 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: quick recap. English polymath Sir Francis Galton had coined the 277 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: term eugenics in eighteen eighty three. That was from Greek 278 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: terms meaning good stock or good birth. This had drawn 279 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: from earlier research on things like heredity and natural selection, 280 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: including the work of Charles Darwin. Eugenics was rooted in 281 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: the idea that humanity could be improved through good breeding. Initially, 282 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: Galton and others focused primarily on what was framed as 283 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: positive eugenics, that is, encouraging the so called right people 284 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: to have children, but soon people were also advocating negative eugenics, 285 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: or preventing these so called wrong people from having children. 286 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: In the first decade of the twentieth century, this could 287 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: include everything from segregating people who lived in places like 288 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 1: group homes and asylums by sex, to sterilizing people who 289 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: were believed to be feeble minded in the parlance of 290 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: the day. Eventually after these events were talking about today, 291 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: Nazi Germany also used these same ideas as justification to 292 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: murder people with mental illnesses or disabilities, which was described 293 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: as euthanasia in the UK specifically, Winston Churchill was named 294 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: Home Secretary in nineteen ten, and he immediately started advocating 295 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: for a eugenics law patterned after one that was already 296 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: on the books in the US state of Indiana. Indiana's 297 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: law allowed for the involuntary sterilization of quote confirmed criminals, idiots, imbeciles, 298 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: and rapists. This was the first of many such laws 299 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: passed in the United States and elsewhere. There were laws 300 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: already on the books in the UK that were related 301 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: to things like the care and education of disabled people 302 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: or people with mental illness, and Churchill had spearheaded the 303 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: creation of the Royal Commission on the Care and Control 304 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: of the Feeble Minded in nineteen oh four. But as 305 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: eugenics really increased in popularity, people were calling for some 306 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: kind of law to keep such people from having children. 307 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: In May of nineteen twelve, the Feeble Minded Control Bill 308 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: was introduced in the House of Commons, which would have 309 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: made marrying a so called mental defective or officiating such 310 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: a marriage a crime. This bill also included language to 311 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: create a registry of purportedly feeble minded people, and it 312 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: empowered the Home Secretary to add people to this registry. 313 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: Although most of parliaments supported the bill, the critics were 314 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 1: extremely vocal, and in June this was replaced with a 315 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: new bill called the Mental Deficiency Bill. The Mental Deficiency 316 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: Bill outlined four categories of people, ranging from people whose 317 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: disability and support needs meant that they couldn't protect themselves 318 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: from common physical dangers, to the feeble minded also called 319 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: socially inefficient, who required quote care, supervision, and control for 320 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: their own protection or the protection of others. This bill 321 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: also covered moral defectives. In its language, these were people 322 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: who had some kind of a mental disorder, along with 323 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: quote vicious or criminal propensities on which punishment had little 324 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: or no effect. Other language in this bill also applied 325 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: to people with epilepsy. While it did not include provisions 326 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: for sterilizing people against their will, the bill did mandate 327 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: that these people be separated from the rest of society 328 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: in hospitals, homes, or what it called colonies. The goal 329 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: was the same as a sterilization program, to try to 330 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,719 Speaker 1: keep them from having children. Several of the bill's proponents 331 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: stressed how important it was for it to be applied 332 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: to women of child bearing age. As this revised bill 333 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: was being debated, the first International Eugenics Conference was held 334 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: in London. It was sponsored by the Eugenics Education Society, 335 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: which had been founded in nineteen oh seven, and after 336 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: this conference, public support for a British eugenics law continued 337 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: to increase. Prominent public figures who were vocally in favor 338 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: of it included people like HD Wells, and while GK. 339 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,959 Speaker 1: Chesterton was not the only opponent of the bill, he 340 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: was definitely one of the most vocal. This was to 341 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: the point that Anglican priest William Ing, also called Dean 342 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: Ing because he was Dean of Saint Paul's Cathedral, one 343 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,719 Speaker 1: of the bill's primary proponents, described it as being opposed 344 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: only by quote irrationalist prophets like mister Chesterton. Chesterton published 345 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,919 Speaker 1: a series of articles and essays and public lectures condemning 346 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: eugenics and this bill, which he collected, edited and published 347 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: as Eugenics and Other Evils In nineteen twenty two. We're 348 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: going to be reading some quotes from this book, and 349 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: as a note upfront, while he is arguing against eugenics, 350 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: some of the language he is using is very insensitive 351 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 1: by today's standards. Yeah, I just I left out a 352 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 1: lot of the language in the actual bill because it's 353 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: the appalling. Yeah, But some of the quotes I was like, 354 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: this is really illustrative of what he was talking about. 355 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: So he described eugenics in general as quote the idea 356 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 1: that to breed a man like a cart horse was 357 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,959 Speaker 1: the true way to attain that higher civilization of intellectual, 358 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: magnanimity and sympathetic insight which may be found in cart horses. 359 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: And he described the Mental Deficiency Bill this way after 360 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: Parliament had passed it. Quote, the first of the eugenic 361 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: laws has all been adopted by the Government of this 362 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: country and passed with the applause of both parties through 363 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: the dominant house of Parliament. This first eugenic law clears 364 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: the ground and may be said to proclaim negative eugenics, 365 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: but it cannot be defended, and nobody has attempted to 366 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: defend it except on the eugenic theory. I will call 367 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: it the Feeble Minded Bill, both for brevity and because 368 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: the description is strictly accurate. It is quite simply and 369 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 1: literally a bill for incarcerating as madmen those whom no 370 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: doctor will consent to call mad. It is enough if 371 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: some doctor or other may happen to call them weak minded. 372 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: Since there is scarcely any human being to whom this 373 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: term has not been conversationally applied by his own friends 374 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: and relatives on some occasion or other, unless his friends 375 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: and relatives have been lamentably lacking in spirit, it can 376 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: be clearly seen that this law, like the early Christian Church, 377 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 1: to which however it presents points of similarity, is a 378 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: net drawing in of all kinds. We'll talk more about 379 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: Chesterton's opposition to eugenics and to this bill specifically after 380 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: a quick sponsor break. GK. Chesterton criticized eugenics in general 381 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,719 Speaker 1: and the Mental Deficiency Bill specifically from a lot of 382 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: different angles. One was that the term feeble minded did 383 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: not actually mean anything like we've talked on the show 384 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: before about how this was used as a catchall to 385 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: describe all kinds of people with all kinds of different conditions, 386 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 1: or maybe with no condition people just didn't like their behavior. 387 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: He also pointed out that the law itself did not 388 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: offer a clear definition of it. In his words, quote, 389 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: I know that it means very different things to different people, 390 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: but that is only because evil always takes advantage of ambiguity. 391 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: And another passage connected to that same idea, he wrote, 392 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: quote by one of the monstrosities of the feeble minded theory, 393 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 1: a man actually acquitted by a judge and jury could 394 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: then be examined by doctors as to the state of 395 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: his mind, presumably in order to discover by what diseased 396 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: eccentricity he had refrained from the crime. In other words, 397 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: when the police cannot jail a man who is innocent 398 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: of doing something, they jail him for being too innocent 399 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: to do anything. He also suggested that if a law 400 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: really was needed to lock people up, that the purportedly 401 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,959 Speaker 1: weak minded were not the right people to target. He 402 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 1: wrote quote, even if I were a eugenist, then I 403 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: should not personally elect to waste my time locking up 404 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 1: the feeble minded. The people I should lock up would 405 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: be the strong minded. I have known hardly any cases 406 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: of mere mental weakness making a family a failure. I 407 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: have own eight or nine cases of violent and exaggerated 408 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: force of character, making a family hell. He made a 409 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: number of points questioning who would be allowed to make 410 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: these decisions for other people, and why, and whether those 411 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: decision makers could ever possibly be trusted with that kind 412 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: of power. He wrote at one point, quote, when I 413 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: was at school, the kind of boy who liked teasing 414 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: half wits was not the sort that stood up to bullies. 415 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 1: Chesterton also believed that heredity was far more complicated than 416 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: the eugenics movement proposed. Quote, there are the three first 417 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: facts of heredity. That it exists, That it is subtle 418 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 1: and made of a million elements, That it is simple 419 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:48,360 Speaker 1: and cannot be unmade into those elements. To summarize, you know, 420 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 1: there is wine in the soup. You do not know 421 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: how many wines there are in the soup, because you 422 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: do not know how many wines there are in the world, 423 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: and you never will know, because all chemists, all cooks, 424 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 1: and all common sense people tell you that the soup 425 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: is of such a sort that it can never be 426 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: chemically analyzed. That is a perfectly fair parallel to the 427 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: hereditary element in the human soul. There are many ways 428 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: in which one can feel that there is wine in 429 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: the soup, as in suddenly tasting a wine specially favored. 430 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: That corresponds to seeing suddenly flash on a young face 431 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: the image of some ancestor you have known. But even 432 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: then the taster cannot be certain he is not tasting 433 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: one familiar wine among many unfamiliar ones, or seeing one 434 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: known ancestor among a million unknown ancestors. Or, to put 435 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: it much more simply, quote, if the child has his 436 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: parents nose or noses, that may be heredity. But if 437 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: he has not, that may be heredity too. And as 438 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: was the case with a lot of his other writing, 439 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: Chesterton saw capitalism as having created the problems that the 440 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: eugenics movement reported to solve. He argued that capitalism had 441 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: created a class of poor people who were dependent upon 442 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: capitalism for their livelihoods, but also oppressed through capitalism, and 443 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: he saw eugenics as a tool to continue to oppress 444 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: and even eliminate that class. Quote there is one strong, startling, 445 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: outstanding thing about eugenics, and that is its meanness. Wealth 446 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: and the social science supported by wealth had tried an 447 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: inhuman experiment. The experiment had entirely failed. They sought to 448 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: make wealth accumulate, and they made men decay. Then, instead 449 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: of confessing the error and trying to restore the wealth 450 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: or attempting to repair the decay, they are trying to 451 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: cover their first cruel experiment with a more cruel experiment. 452 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: They put a poisonous plaster on a poisoned wound. Vilest 453 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: of all, they actually quote the bewilderment produced among the 454 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: poor by their first blender as a reason for allowing 455 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: them to blender again. They are apparently ready to arrest 456 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: all the opponents of their system as mad, merely because 457 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: the system was maddening. I read that part, and I 458 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: wanted to applaud getting the time machine. We're gonna go 459 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: hug him only for a little bit. Though. He argued 460 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: that rather than trying to eliminate poor people to improve 461 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: the hereditary outcomes of everyone else, that working people should 462 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: be given quote more money, more leisure, more luxuries, more 463 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: status in the community in order to improve their own lives. 464 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: He had little hope that such a plan would ever 465 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: be put into action, though, writing quote, if they made 466 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: the worker too comfortable, he would not work to increase 467 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: another's comforts. If they made him too independent, he would 468 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: not work like a dependent. If, for instance, his wages 469 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: were so good that he could save out of them, 470 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: he might cease to be a wage earner. If his 471 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: house or garden were his own, he might and an 472 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: economic seize in it. The whole capitalist experiment had been 473 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: built on his dependence, but now it was getting out 474 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: of hand, not in the direction of freedom, but of 475 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: frank helplessness. One might say that his dependence had got 476 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: independent of control. In a particularly pointed passage on this 477 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: same idea, he wrote, quote the eugenist, for all I know, 478 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: would regard the mere existence of tiny tim as a 479 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: sufficient reason for massacring the whole family of Cratchet. But 480 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, we have here a very 481 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: good instance of how much more practically true to life 482 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: is sentiment than cynicism. The poor are not a race, 483 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: or even a type. That is senseless to talk about 484 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: breeding them, for they are not a breed. They are, 485 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: in cold fact, what Dickens describes quote, a dust bin 486 00:31:54,600 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: of individual accidents of damaged dignity and often of damaged gentility. 487 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: In spite of Chestertown's vocal criticisms, Parliament passed the Mental 488 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: Deficiency Act in nineteen thirteen with only three votes against it. 489 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: It stayed on the books until being repealed by the 490 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: Mental Health Act of nineteen fifty nine. Chesterton continued to 491 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: be a strident critic of eugenics for the rest of 492 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: his life. As the Mental Deficiency Act was being debated, 493 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: Chesterton was also publicly facing a totally different struggle. His 494 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: brother Cecil was convicted of libel during the Marconi scandal. 495 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: This was an insider trading scandal which broke in nineteen twelve, 496 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: and it involved several high ranking members of the British government. 497 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: People who were implicated in this included Godfrey Isaacs, who 498 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: was managing director of the Marconi Company, and his brother 499 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: Rufus Isaacs, who was Attorney General. Godfrey and Rufus Isaacs 500 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,959 Speaker 1: were Jewish, and so Chesterton's reporting on this had anti 501 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: Semitic elements, and g K. Chesterton was accused of anti 502 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: Semitism as well, both for his writing and other statements 503 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: made during this trial and its aftermath and at other 504 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: points during his life. Today, there are people who try 505 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: to dismiss Chestertown's anti Semitism, noting that he had individual 506 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: Jewish friends and colleagues who he seemed to admire in respect, 507 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: and that he was one of the first people in 508 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: Britain to publicly condemn Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. 509 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: But Chestertown unquestionably wrote a lot about Jewish people as 510 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: a whole that was inherently anti Semitic. For example, he 511 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: wrote a book called The New Jerusalem, published in nineteen twenty, 512 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: which chronicled a journey that he took from England to 513 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 1: what was then the territory of Palestine. In the chapter 514 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: the Problem of Zionism, he wrote, quote, my friends and 515 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: I had in some general sense the policy in the matter, 516 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: and it was in substance the desire to give Jews 517 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: the dignity and status of a separate nation. We desired 518 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: that in some fashion, and so far as possible, Jews 519 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: should be represented by Jews, and should live in a 520 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: society of Jews, should be judged by Jews and ruled 521 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: by Jews. I am an anti Semite. If that is 522 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,959 Speaker 1: anti Semitism, it would seem more rational to call it Semitism. 523 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: Feel like that statement starts out sounding okay, but then 524 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: it becomes like we should separate all of the Jewish 525 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: people and put them in a different place. Yeah, yeah, 526 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: it seems so reasonable at the outset and then bli. 527 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: In this same chapter, he also argues that Jewish people 528 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 1: should be allowed to do any job and go anywhere 529 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: they wish, up to and including being named Archbishop of 530 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: Canterbury if the religion expanded to the point that that 531 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,760 Speaker 1: made sense, but also that they should all be dressed 532 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: quote as an Arab quote. The point is that we 533 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: should know where we are, and he would know where 534 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: he is, which is in a foreign land. Chesterton argued 535 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: that Jewish people were loyal only to themselves, not to 536 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 1: any nation where they might be living, to the point 537 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: that they should be ineligible for public office. The idea 538 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 1: that Jewish people are inherently disloyal or have dual loyalties 539 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: is of course anti Semitic. Chesterton also acknowledged that the 540 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: same argument had been used to try to keep Catholics 541 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: out of office in Protestant countries, but he argued that 542 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: this was not the same thing. Yeah, like, oh no, 543 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: mine is different. Yeah, I mean, if you learn about 544 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: anti Semitic tropes like dual loyalties is just a it's 545 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: a key one. So anyway, Chesterton continued to publish poetry, articles, books, 546 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: and Father Brown stories for the rest of his life. 547 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighteen, his brother died of an illness that 548 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: he contracted while serving in World War One, and then 549 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: afterward Chesterton took over a publication that he and his 550 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: brother and Hilarabella had started together that had originally been 551 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: called The Eyewitness. He renamed it Gk's Weekly and kept 552 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: it going. Also, in nineteen eighteen, Parliament passed the Representation 553 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: of the People Bill, which allowed women over the age 554 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: of thirty to vote as long as they were married 555 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: or a member of the local government register. Chesterton opposed 556 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,399 Speaker 1: women's suffrage as well. He thought women's political involvement would 557 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: lead to the destruction of the family, and he often 558 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: wrote about suffragists and other campaigners for women's rights in 559 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: a way that was insulting, like he described suffragists as 560 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,879 Speaker 1: chaining themselves to a tree and then complaining that they 561 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: were not free. Another frequently repeated quote quote ten thousand 562 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: women marched through the streets shouting we will not be 563 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,760 Speaker 1: dictated to and went off and became stenographers. Then nineteen 564 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: Chesterton formally converted to Roman Catholicism, and then his wife 565 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: Francis did as well a few years later. The year 566 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,720 Speaker 1: that Chesterton converted, he also published a book on Saint 567 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 1: Francis of Assisi. Other biographies he published later on in 568 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: his life included one on Chaucer in nineteen thirty two 569 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: and one on Thomas Aquinas in nineteen thirty three. In 570 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: the last several years of his life, Chesterton worked with 571 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: a secretary named Dorothy Collins, who helped manage his business 572 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: and literary affairs, and also acted as a chauffeur. That 573 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 1: first novel that we mentioned was in a trunk found 574 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 1: in her home after she died in nineteen eighty eight. 575 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: Sometimes Dorothy is described almost as a daughter to the 576 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: Chesterton's who never had children. After both Gilbert and Francis died, 577 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: Gilbert's sister in law, Aida Chesterton, wrote a cruel description, 578 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: suggesting that they had no children because their marriage had 579 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: never been consummated. This wound up being picked up by 580 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: other biographers, but it doesn't appear to have been true. 581 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: Among other things, at one point Francis underwent medical treatment 582 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: for infertility. Yeah she seems to have wanted to have 583 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,720 Speaker 1: children and not been able to, and if their marriage 584 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,240 Speaker 1: had never been consummated, she would not have been pursuing 585 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:21,320 Speaker 1: fertility treatment. G. K. Chesterton died on June fourteenth, nineteen 586 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,720 Speaker 1: thirty six, and Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire, of heart and kidney failure. 587 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: He was sixty two. His wife, Francis, died two years later. 588 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: His autobiography, which he had written shortly before his death, 589 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: was published posthumously. In addition to serving as the president 590 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: of the Detection Club, he was also serving as President 591 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 1: of the Royal Society of Literature. Beyond his influence on 592 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: the detective story genre, Chesterton is also discussed as tangentially 593 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 1: connected to the literary discussion group known as the Inklings, 594 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: whose members included both C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien. 595 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 1: Chesterton was not officially a member, but he did influence 596 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: many of them. I feel like we could have done 597 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:11,360 Speaker 1: so many episodes about because this, in a lot of 598 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: ways only scratches the surface. But I did want to 599 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: focus on the eugenics part and also touch on some 600 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: of the other major points of his life. I have 601 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,360 Speaker 1: a listener mail from Christy. It came about after we 602 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: talked about some pronunciation things on the show. The subject 603 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 1: line of the email is you say pecan, I say pecan, 604 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: and Christie wrote, Hi, Tracy and Holley, I just had 605 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 1: to write in about your discussion on pronunciations, specifically of 606 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 1: the word bocan. I grew up in New Mexico and 607 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,760 Speaker 1: pronounced that word the way you did in your episode. However, 608 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: my husband here grew up in Central Texas, pronounces it pecan. 609 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: It was funny to me that your Tracy's question mark 610 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: friend believes that people who live in the area where 611 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,359 Speaker 1: the tree as native don't pronounce it that way. I 612 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,439 Speaker 1: also attended a university in East Texas, and I would 613 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 1: say that pcn is the primary way I heard Texas 614 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: Natives in that area pronounced the word. Sounds like the 615 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: pronunciation varies even within the Southern US. As I mentioned, 616 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: I grew up in New Mexico, as did my parents, 617 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 1: but my dad's parents moved there from Oklahoma and my 618 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: mom's parents moved there from upstate New York. As a result, 619 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 1: even between my brother and five sisters, the pronunciation of 620 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: words like caramel and caribbean vary from person to person, 621 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: sometimes maybe just to stand out from the pack, ha ha. 622 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: My husband has mostly ditched his Texas accent after twelve 623 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: years of active duty military service, I e. The great homogenizer, 624 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 1: But every once in a while he will say a 625 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 1: word like crayon, which he pronounces crown, and his Texas 626 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 1: roots are exposed. After traveling throughout the country, living briefly 627 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,080 Speaker 1: in Asia and in the Middle East, and learning more 628 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: about the ways that raises them and classes them sneak 629 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 1: into society, I've begun to appreciate that the variety of 630 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: pronunciations make a language beautiful, that dialects are intrinsically linked 631 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: to culture, and of course, the diversity of cultures creates 632 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:18,800 Speaker 1: the beautiful tapestry of humanity. I still catch myself quote 633 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: correcting my husband when he says something that it doesn't 634 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,319 Speaker 1: sound quite right to my ears. But I am making 635 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 1: a conscious effort to stop listening to early twentieth century 636 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: audio in speeches and movies. Reminds me that English as 637 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,840 Speaker 1: I know it is transitory and evolution as a natural 638 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,239 Speaker 1: part of language. Unfortunately, I'm allergic to cats, but I've 639 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: included pictures of our dogs Gus Gus the white poodle 640 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 1: mix and Milo, the tan terrier mix, and one that 641 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 1: includes my sister's Shitsu Suki. Milo inexplicably prefers to sit 642 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 1: on Gus Gus, and Gus Gus inexplicably doesn't mind it all. 643 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 1: They are both great snugglebugs and they bring us much joy. 644 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for all the great work you 645 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: do researching, organizing, and presenting history in a way that 646 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: is interesting and relevant. You have completely shifted my perspective 647 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 1: of human and especially US history just by covering the 648 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 1: topics and people that I missed in all my history classes. 649 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: Thinks again, Christie. Christie also included a sort of assortment 650 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,479 Speaker 1: of other like funny pronunciation quirks. I wanted to read 651 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: this for a couple of reasons. One, the story about 652 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,440 Speaker 1: Pecan versus Pecan and where people lived remind me of 653 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 1: a story that I know I told in a live 654 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,760 Speaker 1: show Q and A one time, but I can't remember 655 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: if I've told it on the podcast. Before. We were 656 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 1: in the Finger Lakes area of New York for a 657 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,400 Speaker 1: live show in Seneca Falls, and there was a restaurant 658 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 1: that had a sandwich on the menu that is a 659 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: regional sandwich that is called beef on and then the 660 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,800 Speaker 1: name of the bread W E c K. So you 661 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 1: would probably look at it and say beef on weck. 662 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:58,840 Speaker 1: My husband grew up in western New York and told 663 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,919 Speaker 1: me that everyone where he grew up called it beef 664 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 1: on wick, not weck wick, like it was spelled with 665 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,799 Speaker 1: an eye. And I told this story in our live 666 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 1: show q Anda, and two different people came up to 667 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,880 Speaker 1: me afterward, and one of them said, I grew up here. 668 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: Your husband is totally correct. That's how we all say it, 669 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 1: And the other one was like, I grew up here. 670 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:26,800 Speaker 1: Your husband is punking you, right, And I had actually Weirdly, 671 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 1: this came up again recently in a conversation with another 672 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 1: friend of ours who grew up in that part of 673 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:34,879 Speaker 1: the US, and he also was like, yeah, we said 674 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: it wick. Also the crayon comment and pronouncing it like crown. 675 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: Years ago, we had a thing on our Facebook that 676 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,239 Speaker 1: was about how different pronunciations and boy did people just 677 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: get in the Facebook version of a fistfight about people 678 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 1: saying crayon as though it's crown. People were there was 679 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:02,879 Speaker 1: also cran was a big yeah, and wow, people were 680 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: viciously upset. It was a lot of I had no idea. 681 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,840 Speaker 1: I thought I had picked that topic and I thought, 682 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 1: what a lovely, easy breezy, make everybody happy kind of 683 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,479 Speaker 1: thing to talk about how crayons were invented and little 684 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: did I know, I'll have yeah yeah. So anyway, I 685 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,919 Speaker 1: love how this email brought so many things together. Thank 686 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: you for sending it in these adorable dog picks. If 687 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,400 Speaker 1: you want to send us a note about this or 688 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:37,280 Speaker 1: any other podcasts or history podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com 689 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,760 Speaker 1: and we're all over social media at missed in History. 690 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:43,520 Speaker 1: That's where you'll find our Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, and Instagram. 691 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,879 Speaker 1: And you can subscribe to our show on the iHeartRadio 692 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: app and wherever else you want to get your podcasts. 693 00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 694 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,759 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 695 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.