Speaker 1: I do not want kids.
Speaker 2: Me and my mom is amazing. It is the best thing.
Speaker 2: I'm thirty three and I have no kids. Doing mom
Speaker 2: is literally the best thing ever.
Speaker 1: Do not have kids, and I would argue it's one
Speaker 1: of the most important decisions. When are you going to
Speaker 1: have kids?
Speaker 3: There's no benefit to asking that question. Saying that to
Speaker 3: someone who is really struggling. It can end up triggering
Speaker 3: something so difficult.
Speaker 1: Well, I know how my life is going to change,
Speaker 1: and am I ready to embrace that change.
Speaker 3: The older that you get as a woman, the more
Speaker 3: difficult it is to conceive.
Speaker 1: The pressure of having a child financially is actually one
Speaker 1: of the biggest factors in why people are scared about children.
Speaker 1: This is something I hear a lot when we're back
Speaker 1: in London. Yeah, for sure, is when are you going
Speaker 1: to have kids?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a big question, especially after you hit thirties.
Speaker 3: It's something especially the aunties out there, they just really
Speaker 3: like knowing. They want to know what's happening. And I
Speaker 3: think a lot of people struggle with it. My friends
Speaker 3: really do, especially my friends who are not even in
Speaker 3: a relationship at the age of thirty five or you know,
Speaker 3: in their late thirties and they haven't got into a relationship,
Speaker 3: and then they're really scared about the idea of when
Speaker 3: am I going.
Speaker 2: To have children?
Speaker 3: And then the pressure of people asking on top of that.
Speaker 3: I think more so for women than men. It's just
Speaker 3: really it can be really difficult for so many people
Speaker 3: to hear that regularly and not know when it's going
Speaker 3: to happen for them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk to me about that pressure, because I think
Speaker 1: you're right. Women get it more than men, definitely, and
Speaker 1: they hear it a lot more often from a lot
Speaker 1: more people. So talk to me a bit about that
Speaker 1: pressure because I may not even understand it fully because
Speaker 1: that's not really something that men get hit with that often.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know.
Speaker 3: Biologically, Look, it is true the older that you get
Speaker 3: as a woman, the more difficult it is to conceive.
Speaker 3: And so I think biologically women have this internal clock
Speaker 3: that is ticking, and whether you're unsure about having children
Speaker 3: or whether you really want them, you feel it internally
Speaker 3: that your body is aging and what that means because
Speaker 3: you've been told that from such a young age that
Speaker 3: as a woman, when you have to have children, the
Speaker 3: ideal age to have children is in your twenties. As
Speaker 3: soon as you get your thirties is going to get harder.
Speaker 3: And so I think you feel it in your body
Speaker 3: and you notice changes that are happening which lead you
Speaker 3: to believe that it's kind of getting to the end
Speaker 3: of the time period where it's going to be easy
Speaker 3: for you to conceive. And then I think for a
Speaker 3: lot of women who aren't even in relationships yet, it's like, God,
Speaker 3: I have to find my partner and I have to
Speaker 3: get pregnant within the next two years or whatever it is. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think it's a mixture of media and a mixture
Speaker 3: of people around you, and the reality of the situation
Speaker 3: being unfortunately that we do have a body clock.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I did some research before the episode, and
Speaker 1: it said that women born in two thousand and seven
Speaker 1: are projected to have their first child by age thirty
Speaker 1: five versus thirty one for their mothers. Yes, so true,
Speaker 1: and girls born in twenty twenty five may not reach
Speaker 1: that milestone until age thirty six. And so it's going
Speaker 1: up gradually. And so anyone is feeling alone or anyone
Speaker 1: who is thinking, oh gosh, like maybe it's just me,
Speaker 1: the truth is it's not just you. It is the trend.
Speaker 1: And I think often we don't look at statistics as
Speaker 1: a way of understanding we're not alone, because the trends
Speaker 1: show what everyone around you is doing, even if you
Speaker 1: feel everyone around you is having kids, right, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people look around and go whatever on
Speaker 1: Instagram has kids, and all my friends have kids, and
Speaker 1: everyone does. It's just me. I'm the one who's been
Speaker 1: left behind. Either I don't have kids or I haven't
Speaker 1: found my person yet. And the reality is the status
Speaker 1: show no, you're not alone at all. Pretty much everyone
Speaker 1: around you is getting older, is having kids older, and
Speaker 1: that's much more normal. And I think when you understand that,
Speaker 1: it kind of frees you up from some of that pressure.
Speaker 1: But what's the different kind of pressure that people get
Speaker 1: from like family, society, friends. Have you noticed any patterns
Speaker 1: or differences in what you hear? And I think there's
Speaker 1: two things that I found really interesting. The first is
Speaker 1: no one ever asked a question do you want kids? Yes?
Speaker 1: Or you will maybe from a friend or someone you're
Speaker 1: very close to, but generally people will skip that question.
Speaker 1: It's really strange because when you ask the question when
Speaker 1: are you having kids, it's an assumption that people want
Speaker 1: kids that people can conceive and have Kich Today we'll
Speaker 1: talk about that. That's a whole nother area. It's quite
Speaker 1: an insensitive and unthoughtful question. It comes with good intent.
Speaker 1: People are not people are excited, people are whatever. But
Speaker 1: if you look at it in reality, it doesn't make
Speaker 1: sense as a question. It's like saying to someone like
Speaker 1: when are you going to start a business, and that
Speaker 1: person's like, I'm happy in my job, Like I don't
Speaker 1: want to start a business, or like when are you
Speaker 1: gonna leave your job and find a better job, And
Speaker 1: it's like I don't know if I need to leave
Speaker 1: my job, Like why are you assuming that? But we
Speaker 1: assume everyone wants kids, can have kids, and is excited
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 3: I think the biggest part of it is that in
Speaker 3: sensitivity about it, and I know people don't mean it
Speaker 3: in that way, but I think nowadays we're all aware
Speaker 3: that more people than not are having miscarriages or not.
Speaker 2: Being able to conceive.
Speaker 3: I think it's like one in five women have miscarriages,
Speaker 3: and so we all have girlfriends at least like five
Speaker 3: women in our life that one of them will probably
Speaker 3: have had a miscarriage. And I think now we are
Speaker 3: aware of that when people DM me or comment on stuff,
Speaker 3: or even the craziest thing is I will sometimes have
Speaker 3: videos where a little bit my belly's popping out a bit,
Speaker 3: or like maybe I've just eaten and I'm a bit bloated,
Speaker 3: and people are like, oh my gosh, are you pregnant?
Speaker 3: And I'm like, first of all, okay, I actually don't
Speaker 3: mind if people think I'm pregnant based on how I look.
Speaker 3: But I always think if someone's saying that to someone
Speaker 3: who is really struggling to conceive to have a baby,
Speaker 3: not sure what they're doing, it can end up triggering
Speaker 3: something so deeply. So it's kind of like, what is
Speaker 3: the benefit of me asking when you're having children? And
Speaker 3: what's the benefit of me writing it in a public
Speaker 3: forum questioning whether that person is pregnant or not, Because
Speaker 3: if they are pregnant and they haven't told you, they
Speaker 3: probably don't want to tell you. And that's the reality
Speaker 3: of it. People go through different phases in their life
Speaker 3: where they really want children and then they're not sure,
Speaker 3: and then they're trying to figure themselves out and feel
Speaker 3: like it's not the right time. And there's so many
Speaker 3: parts of life where you can feel a different way
Speaker 3: about something. But I always truggle with the idea of, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, are we doing it in the wrong way?
Speaker 2: Are we doing it the right way?
Speaker 3: Like, yes, I think you know, health aspect of it,
Speaker 3: we are it is better to have children when you're younger,
Speaker 3: according to your health. But then when I think about
Speaker 3: it with mindset, if I had had children when I
Speaker 3: was in my twenties, I'm not sure I would have
Speaker 3: been a version of myself that has space to have
Speaker 3: a child, look after it in the right way, create
Speaker 3: the life.
Speaker 2: That I would have wanted to for that child.
Speaker 3: But I would have done that because of pressure of
Speaker 3: people telling me that the twenties is when you should
Speaker 3: do it. And then I speak to women who are
Speaker 3: in their late thirties having children. They say, I'm so glad,
Speaker 3: I'm so grateful that I had children at a later age.
Speaker 2: I now can spend so much time with them.
Speaker 3: I figured my life out, I've spent time with my partner,
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm in a stable place financially, all
Speaker 3: of these things are in place for me to really
Speaker 3: bring up this child how I wanted to.
Speaker 2: And so I think there's so many obviously not.
Speaker 3: There is no right, right answer, But I do think
Speaker 3: it's difficult going through I'm sure anyone listening, I don't
Speaker 3: know whether you've been through this. But in my twenties
Speaker 3: I thought growing up I would have both my children
Speaker 3: or the two children that I thought I wanted.
Speaker 2: In my twenties. No, like I was going to be
Speaker 2: a young mum in my twenties that.
Speaker 3: Was pregnant, looking cute, you know, just getting like fit
Speaker 3: after my pregnancy. You know, I had a vision of
Speaker 3: what that looked like. And then my life changed dramatically.
Speaker 3: Our life changed dramatically, and I felt like I went
Speaker 3: through a whole journey of really trying to having to
Speaker 3: figure out so much more about myself to feel even
Speaker 3: comfortable about inviting another soul into my life that I
Speaker 3: then would be responsible for and I would want to
Speaker 3: give them the best of myself. And so I think
Speaker 3: it's it's really hard for women. Honestly, I think it
Speaker 3: really is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you brought up to really good things. I think
Speaker 1: one part is the idea that when you ask the
Speaker 1: question when are you having kids, if that person's just
Speaker 1: had a miscarriage, it's really really tough to face that question,
Speaker 1: and they try and smile and hold a positive demeanor
Speaker 1: in that environment, and then they feel pain afterwards. Or
Speaker 1: let's say they're going through IVF treatment, which so many
Speaker 1: of our friends are as well, and so many people
Speaker 1: we know, and it's not going that well right now. Again,
Speaker 1: it's become an emotional reaction for that person. And then
Speaker 1: there's the person who's like, well, I don't want to
Speaker 1: have kids at all. Now it may start a debate
Speaker 1: that they don't really want to have because they don't
Speaker 1: need to convince you or anyone else. And so those
Speaker 1: first two, though, I've seen that be so hard. I've
Speaker 1: had so many friends in the last twenty four to
Speaker 1: thirty six months who've gone through one to three five
Speaker 1: rounds of IVF, had multiple miscarriages, and whenever that question
Speaker 1: or conversation comes up at family dinner or anywhere, it's
Speaker 1: so emotionally difficult for that individual. And just just to
Speaker 1: be really clear, me and Radia have not gone through
Speaker 1: either of those things, and just to be you know,
Speaker 1: totally transparent and honest, we haven't. But for anyone who
Speaker 1: is going through that, I've had so many of my
Speaker 1: friends come up to me and just say like, dude,
Speaker 1: I just I'm struggling. This is meant too, like coming
Speaker 1: up to me and just being like, my wife's just
Speaker 1: been through this. I'm just trying to be there for her.
Speaker 1: But then all her friends keep saying like, when are
Speaker 1: you having kids? And what's going on? Then she's coming
Speaker 1: to me and it's a real thing. And so I'm
Speaker 1: really glad that you raised that point because I think
Speaker 1: it's often forgotten or missed. And the other thing I
Speaker 1: was going to say is, I think one of the
Speaker 1: biggest challenges with humans is that we try to time
Speaker 1: things perfectly. Now, the biological clock is real, totally understands,
Speaker 1: let's start with that foundation. But the idea of when
Speaker 1: are you having kids is the wrong question. I think
Speaker 1: the right questions are actually, do I know how my
Speaker 1: life will change when I have a child? And am
Speaker 1: I ready to embrace that.
Speaker 2: Change right right right now?
Speaker 1: The truth is you won't know fully how your life
Speaker 1: is going to change. So I know parents will say, Jay,
Speaker 1: you never know your life will change in the most
Speaker 1: incredible ways and crazy ways. I agree with that too.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't have kids, but what I
Speaker 1: can observe is am I prepared for the basics of
Speaker 1: that change. Do I know it's like changing anything in life?
Speaker 1: Am I aware of how my sleep bands may change,
Speaker 1: how my social life may change, how my relationship with
Speaker 1: my partner may change. I was looking into the statistics
Speaker 1: about this because I was talking to a client of
Speaker 1: mine and they were telling me that after they had
Speaker 1: their firstborn, him and his wife went through the toughest
Speaker 1: part of their marriage. And when I looked into the statistics,
Speaker 1: it showed that most men feel after their partner gives
Speaker 1: birth that they feel unloved, they feel like a second priority,
Speaker 1: they feel unthought about. Yeah, and that's also why the
Speaker 1: trend showed that more men are likely to cheat at
Speaker 1: that time, no way when either when their wife are
Speaker 1: pregnant or when their wife gives birth. Because again I'm
Speaker 1: not condoning this, I'm just talking about the statistics because
Speaker 1: that's when they feel neglected. So the truth is, if
Speaker 1: you're prepared for that, you'll be less surprised in court
Speaker 1: of God. Right when I think about us having kids,
Speaker 1: I'm like, got it, Rabi, I'm going to go lower
Speaker 1: on the list. Yeah, And that's a reality not just
Speaker 1: for me, but for every man in my position, who
Speaker 1: has that situation, And if I'm mentally prepared for it,
Speaker 1: I'm actually better ready to deal with it rather than
Speaker 1: I'm like looking at you, going, well, what's going on?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: Why am I not your priority anymore? You don't love
Speaker 1: me anymore? When in reality, of course, your energy is
Speaker 1: going to go towards this helpless little baby who actually
Speaker 1: needs it. And all I'm saying is like, treat me
Speaker 1: like the baby. I'm not the baby anymore. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: so I think there's a lot to be said for
Speaker 1: not asking the question of when's the right time, because
Speaker 1: I don't think you'll ever know when it's the right time,
Speaker 1: but it's do I know how my life is going
Speaker 1: to change? And am I ready to embrace that change?
Speaker 1: So my life is going to change, but I'm not
Speaker 1: going to be your top priority. Am I ready for that?
Speaker 1: My life's going to change by I will have sleepless night?
Speaker 1: Am I ready for that? My life's going to change
Speaker 1: with I may not be able to have the freedom
Speaker 1: on the weekends that I have right now? Am I
Speaker 1: ready for that? And those are better questions to prepare
Speaker 1: me because the question of when should we have kids
Speaker 1: doesn't really prepare me. M.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I agree.
Speaker 3: I do think that the process is never going to
Speaker 3: be the same and never going to be understood as
Speaker 3: fully by a man as it is obviously for a woman,
Speaker 3: because a woman has to literally carry that child inside
Speaker 3: of her for those nine months, and so I think
Speaker 3: there's always going to be slight disconnects between how men
Speaker 3: perceive the situation and how women do. But I remember
Speaker 3: I was thinking about how, you know, I remember at
Speaker 3: the beginning, when we first met, you really didn't want
Speaker 3: to have children, or like you were sure whether you did,
Speaker 3: And it was so it was right at the beginning.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd just come out of the monastery and that.
Speaker 2: Exactly, and your mindset was back there.
Speaker 3: And I read this quote actually that I thought for
Speaker 3: anybody thinking of not having children, I thought it was
Speaker 3: really well put. I said, motherhood is not Motherhood is
Speaker 3: not the only way to mother. You can mother a movement,
Speaker 3: a garden, a dream, or a community. And I remember
Speaker 3: when we first met, back way back, when you had
Speaker 3: said you wanted to help so many more people, and
Speaker 3: you weren't sure whether you want to put all your
Speaker 3: emphasis onto.
Speaker 2: One person or into one child.
Speaker 3: And so many people recently that I have met, or
Speaker 3: actually not so many. Quite a few people that I
Speaker 3: met recently have said that they don't want to have
Speaker 3: children because they feel they are saving the child from
Speaker 3: all the pain that's happening in the world. They don't
Speaker 3: think this environment is an environment to bring children into
Speaker 3: the world. I know there's a big following of that
Speaker 3: philosophy from friends that we know and even in specific communities,
Speaker 3: and I was wondering whether you'd heard that or what
Speaker 3: your thoughts were on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think for me, it was very much a
Speaker 1: feeling of I feel I get to express a lot
Speaker 1: of paternal energy.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I know it's not the same, so I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to say it's the same, but I experience a lot
Speaker 1: of paternal energy in my work. I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: a parent to lots of people, and so that part
Speaker 1: of my life is quite full.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you think about rather Thanaswami who's a
Speaker 3: spiritual teacher, and all the spiritual teachers that are out
Speaker 3: there who are not in relationships and don't have children,
Speaker 3: all they do is father people or other people and
Speaker 3: are there for them through every type of problem and
Speaker 3: supporting them, caring for them, So I can totally understand
Speaker 3: how people could feel like that.
Speaker 1: That was how I used to feel, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: And I think there's a lot of people now who
Speaker 1: are fearful of raising a child in a world with
Speaker 1: social media, the mental health challenges that come with it,
Speaker 1: the security and safety issue the world, Yeah, school systems
Speaker 1: that are failing children, the worry with I mean, that's
Speaker 1: just like war or there's just so much that I
Speaker 1: think people are becoming aware of. Again, it's not lots
Speaker 1: of people. It's some people that I know that are
Speaker 1: having these conversations, and I think all of those are
Speaker 1: valid for that person now. At the same time, I
Speaker 1: know people who are raising amazing kids that are going
Speaker 1: to go on to become future leaders of the world
Speaker 1: in their areas. And I know amazing people raising beautiful
Speaker 1: children that I think will have a beautiful impact on
Speaker 1: their communities and the people around them. And I know
Speaker 1: people having kids yet early who are really happy. Like
Speaker 1: we just had Nara Smith on the podcast, and Nara's
Speaker 1: in her twenties and she has like four kids and
Speaker 1: she loves it, like she's really happy, and it comes
Speaker 1: with her and her husband making certain choices and whatever
Speaker 1: it may be, but she's happy about it, and I
Speaker 1: can see that when I'm with her, and she's a
Speaker 1: successful woman. She's very ambitious, she's driven, but they have
Speaker 1: a happy family set up. And so it's funny.
Speaker 3: Because now people see that as, oh my gosh, she
Speaker 3: had kids so early. Yeah, but she hasn't had kids early.
Speaker 3: I don't know what's early and late. But technically back
Speaker 3: in the day, like even twenty thirty years ago, that
Speaker 3: would have been seen as a very normal age to
Speaker 3: have children. And now on social media when you see it,
Speaker 3: these people saying, wow, she's had four kids in her twenties.
Speaker 3: That is so like, she's had them so young, so early.
Speaker 3: So it's so funny how things just change, isn't it.
Speaker 1: That's a great that's such a good point of like
Speaker 1: what is normal changes every twenty five years. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: so this idea of well everyone's doing it is a
Speaker 1: messy metric because what everyone's doing today will be different
Speaker 1: from what everyone's doing twenty five years from now, and
Speaker 1: different to what everyone did twenty five years ago. And
Speaker 1: so trying to do what everyone's doing it does make
Speaker 1: life easier. There's a reason why we want to do
Speaker 1: things at the same time as people because you can
Speaker 1: share in that experience. And I think that's important and
Speaker 1: we need that. But if you're not ready for something,
Speaker 1: and this was a really interesting statistic, it said thirty
Speaker 1: six percent of adults under fifty without kids say they're
Speaker 1: delaying parent because they don't think they can afford it.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, and that, you know, has become such a challenge.
Speaker 1: Sixty six percent of parents feel consumed by money worries
Speaker 1: versus thirty nine percent of non parents, So that's true.
Speaker 2: Kid's expensive.
Speaker 1: The pressure of having a child financially is actually one
Speaker 1: of the biggest factors in why people are scared of
Speaker 1: having children. I actually read that for someone to raise
Speaker 1: their child from a zero to eighteen is going to
Speaker 1: cost anywhere between two hundred and thirty three thousand to
Speaker 1: three hundred and ten thousand dollars. And by the way,
Speaker 1: that doesn't include college. Wow, because eighteen's before college. So
Speaker 1: if you add tuition fees if your child's going to
Speaker 1: go to college, you're adding potentially another thirty fifty hundred,
Speaker 1: two hundred thousand dollars depending on where they go. And
Speaker 1: so that's an incredible lot. It's a lot of money,
Speaker 1: and so that has become a real factor. And I've
Speaker 1: heard that from a lot of people saying, we really
Speaker 1: want to have another kid, but we just don't know
Speaker 1: if we can afford it. And then again, if that
Speaker 1: person gets asked, when are you having kids? It triggers
Speaker 1: financial insecurity, It triggers economic uncertainty, It triggers a feeling
Speaker 1: of not being worthy enough, not being good enough. Like
Speaker 1: I don't think we realize how that question, like you said,
Speaker 1: it affects your belief about your appearance. Imagine someone's trying
Speaker 1: to lose weight, gain muscle, strengthen and someone says you
Speaker 1: look like you're pregnant, like that affects them on that perspective.
Speaker 1: If someone's struggling to pay their bills and having a child,
Speaker 1: you ask them when a you're gonna have kids, they're
Speaker 1: now worried about.
Speaker 3: Especially if they really want children and they're trying to
Speaker 3: figure it out financially and they really want them, but
Speaker 3: they're finding it difficult to even think of how that
Speaker 3: would be possible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think we do often. I do sometimes
Speaker 1: think we're living in an overly sensitive world. But I
Speaker 1: think this, and I'm one of those people who say,
Speaker 1: sometimes we're being overly sensitive about everything these days, everything's
Speaker 1: a thing, but this is one of those ones that
Speaker 1: I think. It's so interconnected to your personal belief about yourself,
Speaker 1: your self worth, and your finances, your emotional well being
Speaker 1: because of miscarriages, IVF and everything else that's going on.
Speaker 1: It is one of those things that I think we
Speaker 1: should be sensitive about with others, definitely, because it can
Speaker 1: really make you distant in that relationship.
Speaker 3: I also think sometimes people ask because they don't know
Speaker 3: what else to ask about people's life, and they think
Speaker 3: it's a natural thing to speak about it. I think
Speaker 3: it's more a cultural thing as well, because I actually
Speaker 3: think that a lot of people ask because they don't
Speaker 3: know what else to ask in a situation. They meet someone,
Speaker 3: they've talked about, the weather, they've talked about Okay.
Speaker 2: So now one of you guys having kids.
Speaker 3: And I think it's weirdly a very natural cultural thing
Speaker 3: to do in certain settings, and it can come from
Speaker 3: a place of worry, it can come from a place
Speaker 3: of you know, interest or excitement. But at the same time,
Speaker 3: I'm like, if you're not the person who's gonna be
Speaker 3: looking after my child in some capacity, and and affect
Speaker 3: your life.
Speaker 2: You do not need to know.
Speaker 3: Like, there is zero unless you're my mom, who's gonna
Speaker 3: have to look after me, unless you are somewhat in
Speaker 3: relation or going to be there physically helping me during
Speaker 3: that time. There is absolutely no need for you to
Speaker 3: know when I'm going to be having that child. And
Speaker 3: if I want you to know, I will definitely send
Speaker 3: you a message or a voice no. But if I don't,
Speaker 3: and I don't openly tell you, and this is probably
Speaker 3: how many people feel, no needs, no needs, there's no
Speaker 3: benefit to asking that question. There is, actually I will
Speaker 3: I'll say that again, there is no benefit of asking
Speaker 3: that question because if they know, they would have already
Speaker 3: told you. And if they don't know, you're making them
Speaker 3: anxious in some way. So actually zero benefit and asking
Speaker 3: when are you having children? That's my conclusion of this
Speaker 3: whole situation.
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. Yeah. And men, someone
Speaker 1: get to deflect or tell the truth, which is I
Speaker 1: always say it's Friday's body, it's when she wants like yeah.
Speaker 2: Men, also, can you know get someone men?
Speaker 3: Can men have like unmitted fertility? There are like sixty
Speaker 3: year old men or seventy year old men that are
Speaker 3: getting women pregnant, so I think there's less of a
Speaker 3: You're never going to feel bad about it unless your
Speaker 3: wife is going through something. It's never going to be
Speaker 3: a triggering question really to a man.
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Speaker 1: store near you. There's something that's really interesting here, which
Speaker 1: is this idea of parenthood still equates to success in purpose.
Speaker 1: And I think as societ it's seen that way, like
Speaker 1: if you're a parent, you're doing the right thing, You're normal,
Speaker 1: you're doing something good. And I actually found some quotes
Speaker 1: from Tracy Ellis Ross on rejecting societal scripts. This was
Speaker 1: in New York Times, and she said it undermined my
Speaker 1: sense of worth and joy until I realized it was
Speaker 1: somebody else's idea. I do not believe that my life
Speaker 1: is unworthy because I don't have children. I do not
Speaker 1: believe that my life is unworthy because I don't have
Speaker 1: a partner. I mother. All over the place, you were
Speaker 1: saying this, I do very valued things in the world
Speaker 1: for people I love. That's a really interesting like, you know,
Speaker 1: going back to that point that you made of people
Speaker 1: feel alone if they don't do that.
Speaker 3: I do think though, when when you think about all
Speaker 3: spiritual pathts, religious paths, when you think about evolution and
Speaker 3: how they talk about the human body, there is such
Speaker 3: a strong there is no question of in any of
Speaker 3: those things, whether men and women were made to procreate.
Speaker 3: Think about Adam and Eve, think about any of the scriptures,
Speaker 3: any of the religions that you've seen. Everything does lead
Speaker 3: to you are here to procreate, even as our If
Speaker 3: you're thinking about take God out of this, how the
Speaker 3: human body has been created, it does show towards that
Speaker 3: is why we are here, that is survival, and.
Speaker 2: So it's interesting.
Speaker 3: I don't have the answer for it, but when I
Speaker 3: do think about it in that way, it's kind of
Speaker 3: it's interesting to think about, Okay, so, how can we
Speaker 3: have gone towards this path of saying we shouldn't be
Speaker 3: doing something that our bodies made for that if you
Speaker 3: believe in a certain religion or a specific path, they
Speaker 3: are saying that is what our essence is is to
Speaker 3: create a beautiful child in this world to help other people,
Speaker 3: whatever that notion is, but that there's such a strong
Speaker 3: wave going against it, which it's just interesting because I
Speaker 3: struggle with that idea of both.
Speaker 1: I think everyone today is looking at their inner child
Speaker 1: and then thinks about having a child, right like you're
Speaker 1: you're almost so aware of how much therapy, healing and
Speaker 1: work you need. You feel inadequate and.
Speaker 2: Unqualified, feel like a child having a child?
Speaker 1: Correct, You literally feel like I haven't even figured what's
Speaker 1: going on here? How am I meant to figure out
Speaker 1: what's going on there?
Speaker 3: I'm sure there's a lot of unworthiness that plays into it,
Speaker 3: like when you if you don't feel good in yourself,
Speaker 3: you think how am I going to do that to
Speaker 3: a child? And then at this on the flip side,
Speaker 3: we've spoken about this before that there are so many
Speaker 3: couples who think having a child will help their relationship.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, we have to talk about it.
Speaker 3: And that's really interesting because I think there's one side
Speaker 3: where people don't feel prepared enough, and I think I've
Speaker 3: gone on that side a lot, where I'm like, God,
Speaker 3: I need to be way better before I have a child.
Speaker 3: And then there's this other side and thinking whether you're
Speaker 3: whether you're going to mess a child or like, there's
Speaker 3: so many things that have gone through my mind that
Speaker 3: have stopped me. And then there's this other group of
Speaker 3: people who really strongly believe that having a child will
Speaker 3: fix them or the pain that they've been through as
Speaker 3: a child, or you know, my friends. I've got a
Speaker 3: lot of friends who were raised by single mums, and
Speaker 3: it was really interesting their mindset was really similar and
Speaker 3: not saying this for everyone, but my friends who had
Speaker 3: this where they fundamentally believe them having a child breaks
Speaker 3: the cycle so that they could give the love that
Speaker 3: they didn't receive, like having this family set up.
Speaker 2: Will make up for what they lax.
Speaker 3: And then the couples who are really struggling and decide
Speaker 3: that having children will actually be the bridge between them. Yes,
Speaker 3: it will help will help bridge the gap between them
Speaker 3: that has been created.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was the advice that so many of my
Speaker 1: friends got. Really but they were struggling in their relationships,
Speaker 1: which is like, have a kid, it will solve it,
Speaker 1: And it actually did the opposite. Those people ended up
Speaker 1: becoming getting divorced or after having the kid too. And
Speaker 1: so now you have a kid, which makes it harder.
Speaker 1: Or their relationship got worse because now you had more responsibilities,
Speaker 1: and I think that's what doesn't make sense, Like and
Speaker 1: the man felt even less of a priority, So how
Speaker 1: was it ever going to get better? So on all
Speaker 1: of those levels, it actually made it harder. Now a
Speaker 1: kid can be great, it's not like it can't. But
Speaker 1: that can't be your hell, Mary, Like that can't be
Speaker 1: the thing, Like, let's create life in order to save this.
Speaker 2: It definitely ties them.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of pressure to that person, to that kid.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a pressure on the kid. And I think
Speaker 3: there's a difference between creating connection and creating a tie
Speaker 3: with someone. Yeah, they think the child can create a tie.
Speaker 3: There's so many things that can create ties to people. Okay,
Speaker 3: we've got a house together, that's a tie together. Balance, Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's a tie together.
Speaker 2: A child.
Speaker 3: Yes, of course there is an emotional connection, but the
Speaker 3: emotional connection is actually to the child, it's not necessarily
Speaker 3: to the partner. That creates just another tie to keep
Speaker 3: you strung together. But I don't know whether that action
Speaker 3: if not done consciously and as a partnership, trying to
Speaker 3: connect each other and be better with each other in
Speaker 3: order to create this child, whether that creates a connection
Speaker 3: or just a tie.
Speaker 1: I love that point. That's such a great point. And
Speaker 1: I was thinking about it as you were saying that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for those people who are told, like, have a to
Speaker 1: save your relationship, what ended up happening was they lost
Speaker 1: the relationship and now the kid was stuck in the
Speaker 1: middle of a bad relationship. You know, it only creates
Speaker 1: more trauma.
Speaker 2: And pain for everyone, yeah, in the world.
Speaker 1: And so that shouldn't be the kind of last resort
Speaker 1: or the hope. And you know, then you've got this
Speaker 1: innocent child that's dealing with the fallout and the stress
Speaker 1: and the panic that comes from it, and it makes
Speaker 1: hard for both parents to move on, whether it's in
Speaker 1: future relationships or whatever it may be. That because now
Speaker 1: they have that Yeah, yeah, I still got it. And
Speaker 1: it's really really hard because the challenge is when you
Speaker 1: marry someone, you don't really know how much they're going
Speaker 1: to change and grow and you have no clue. Like
Speaker 1: it is such it is such a I don't want
Speaker 1: to say the word gamble, but it is something that
Speaker 1: because you meet someone at a certain stage in your life,
Speaker 1: you create life with them and then ten years on
Speaker 1: you've realized they had trauma, a mental health challenge, they
Speaker 1: have something that happens to them, and everything changes. Yes,
Speaker 1: And so you can't plan this perfectly either. You can't
Speaker 1: say like, oh, yeah, we'll have a kid when things
Speaker 1: are perfect. It doesn't work like that either. So there's
Speaker 1: no right advice or wrong advice. And I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to give any advice here. I'm just trying to say
Speaker 1: that there's there's a reality to this where we're all
Speaker 1: just living life, I know, and you're adapting as it
Speaker 1: goes along, and you're not going to get everything right
Speaker 1: in perfect order. And it's better to be able to
Speaker 1: react and adapt and be flexible than it is to
Speaker 1: think I'm going to get everything perfect and avoid all
Speaker 1: the stuff. Definitely, So even when we're like I'm not
Speaker 1: worthy enough to have a child, the truth is you
Speaker 1: never feel worthy. You are going to make mistakes. It's
Speaker 1: probably true that your child's going to, you know, end
Speaker 1: up with a few things that you said.
Speaker 2: You might mess them up a little bit, a little.
Speaker 1: Bit, it will happen. It's probably better to assume and
Speaker 1: then try your best than it is to think I'm
Speaker 1: going to avoid anything, and then it's like you end
Speaker 1: up putting bubble wrap around your kid, but then that
Speaker 1: bubble rapp suffocates them. Yeah right, And it's like, so
Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense, Like you're trying to protect it,
Speaker 1: but the same thing that you think is going to
Speaker 1: protect it is what hurts the kid, and it hurts
Speaker 1: you rather than going you know, I'm going to make
Speaker 1: some mistakes. I'm going to try my best. Yeah, maybe
Speaker 1: they are going to hear me shout and yell a
Speaker 1: couple of times. Maybe they are going to see me
Speaker 1: stressed and tired, because that's life, you know if and again,
Speaker 1: we don't want to end up in a position where
Speaker 1: we're being neglectful. But I think there has to be
Speaker 1: some grace and reality to what it means.
Speaker 2: Definitely.
Speaker 1: I think one of the really interesting areas is that
Speaker 1: women in the workplace or entrepreneurs, they're building a career
Speaker 1: for themselves. We talked about how the financial struggle is
Speaker 1: making it harder for couples to think about kids, but
Speaker 1: for women especially they have to go on maternity leave,
Speaker 1: they'll take some time out. Not all organizations and companies
Speaker 1: have great maternity leave, so you may not even get
Speaker 1: that long, you may take unpaid leave, which again financially
Speaker 1: impacts you. If you're an entrepreneur, your business can to stall,
Speaker 1: stop or at least slow down, and then you go
Speaker 1: back to the workplace and you feel like you've gone behind. Right,
Speaker 1: whether you've taken nine months out, whether you've taken six
Speaker 1: months out, whether you've taken four months out, you're catching
Speaker 1: up and it can be really, really hard. What have
Speaker 1: your thoughts been on that, On the idea of like
Speaker 1: having a slow down career? Was you? You know you
Speaker 1: last year you launched your book, you have your own podcast,
Speaker 1: You've got so many exciting things going on when you
Speaker 1: think about kids and how to balance it with that,
Speaker 1: how do you look at that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really struggle with the idea because I know
Speaker 3: I made a decision and well, at least I think
Speaker 3: this is the decision I want to make. Is that
Speaker 3: if I, if we have children, I would want to
Speaker 3: be able to look after the child fully. And I'd
Speaker 3: have loved to have help from other people to help
Speaker 3: look after myself, but I know that I would want
Speaker 3: to look after the child, and so that comes with
Speaker 3: a lot of you know, there's so much to think
Speaker 3: about That would mean I would have to have full
Speaker 3: focus on this child.
Speaker 2: I would have to stop.
Speaker 3: Doing a lot of the things that I am doing,
Speaker 3: because realistically, I yes, you can do a lot of
Speaker 3: different things, but can you do them as well?
Speaker 2: Probably not.
Speaker 3: If I'm trying to put full focus into raising a child,
Speaker 3: probably can't keep up with all the work that I'm doing.
Speaker 3: And so I think, you know, sacrifice comes with such
Speaker 3: a negative connotation to it, but I actually think it
Speaker 3: can be such a beautiful thing where different times in
Speaker 3: your life you see yourself prioritizing different things, And so
Speaker 3: if I think that's how I'm trying to see it instead,
Speaker 3: where the priority lies here, that means that I may
Speaker 3: not be able to do as much, but I can.
Speaker 2: Still probably pre plan.
Speaker 3: We've got nine months to plan and figure out how
Speaker 3: am I going to financially figure this out, figure out
Speaker 3: with my work, figure out with my physical body, how
Speaker 3: am I going to look after myself whatever those other
Speaker 3: priorities are. I do think you have to decide, because
Speaker 3: you know, I think there's this big notion that yeah,
Speaker 3: women can do or of course we can do it,
Speaker 3: but she be at that time where your body's trying
Speaker 3: to healere you've got a new little thing that's come
Speaker 3: into your life that you're trying to nurture and look after.
Speaker 3: And so yes, I'm sure women can do it all,
Speaker 3: but I didn't know whether we should be doing it all.
Speaker 3: And I think being okay with that and everything you
Speaker 3: said is preparation, preparing my mind that maybe I won't
Speaker 3: be able to do this, this and this while for
Speaker 3: the first year of this baby's life. And that's okay,
Speaker 3: because what I am doing is nurture and creating and
Speaker 3: pouring all my energy into creating a beautiful child. And
Speaker 3: so I think it's the prioritization and the preparation in
Speaker 3: your mind of being okay with what could happen so
Speaker 3: it's not shocked and then you don't end up feeling
Speaker 3: really depressed afterwards. That I thought my life was going
Speaker 3: to be all these things. I was going to work
Speaker 3: out at seven am. I was going to feed the
Speaker 3: child at twelve, I was going to do all my
Speaker 3: work from twelve to six.
Speaker 2: I was going to put the baby to better.
Speaker 3: This time, I was that I'm not sure that's how
Speaker 3: it can be, And so preparation and being realistic with
Speaker 3: that preparation I think is really important. But then again,
Speaker 3: I've never been through it. I've just seen it, so
Speaker 3: I can say all this and I'll be a hot
Speaker 3: mess after who knows.
Speaker 2: Who knows.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wanted to share some real world voices. This
Speaker 1: was via Business Insider, and a lady named Viviana had
Speaker 1: her first child at thirty six. She said, I don't
Speaker 1: regret waiting. I think it was the right thing to do.
Speaker 1: Molly had her first child at thirty eight. She said
Speaker 1: it felt irresponsible to even start thinking about a baby
Speaker 1: when I was worried about paying rent and college debt. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I just want to remind people that when you're
Speaker 1: navigating this pressure, whichever stage you're at, whether you want
Speaker 1: to have kids, whether you don't want to have kids,
Speaker 1: whether you're at any point on the spectrum that me
Speaker 1: and Rady have talked about today, you can have the
Speaker 1: conversation we've talked about it, and this is the timeline
Speaker 1: that works for us right now. That's a great mantra
Speaker 1: to kind of repeat to yourself, almost like me and
Speaker 1: my fat I have talked about it. This timeline works
Speaker 1: for us, and we're building a life that's right for us.
Speaker 1: Even if it doesn't look like everyone else's. I think
Speaker 1: the take away from this conversation for me is we
Speaker 1: don't want to live a life ticking society's boxes or expectations,
Speaker 1: because we end up letting ourselves down. We end up
Speaker 1: letting society down, and we'll end up letting our child down.
Speaker 1: We've got to go at our own timeline and ultimately,
Speaker 1: whether you choose to have children or not, life can
Speaker 1: be fulfilling, complete and beautiful because it's all about having
Speaker 1: that energy. If you have a space to share your
Speaker 1: maternal and paternal energy, it can be a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1: I know so many friends that have adopted and are
Speaker 1: very happy.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I know so many friends that don't have children, who
Speaker 1: are monks who have just given their life to thousands
Speaker 1: of people that are happy. And I know families that
Speaker 1: have two, three, four, or five children that are really
Speaker 1: happy at different ages. And so happiness doesn't have a
Speaker 1: timeline or an age or a specific setup. Even if
Speaker 1: you look at the projection of the nuclear family in history,
Speaker 1: whether as serial boxes or adverts, it was always parents,
Speaker 1: a boy and a girl. Yeah, and like that was
Speaker 1: seen as like the nuclear ideal family. It's in every
Speaker 1: advert and that's just not the image that we need
Speaker 1: to project. We need to realize that happiness and fulfillment
Speaker 1: looks very different for different people. So true, great, thanks
Speaker 1: for that. I learned so much. I'm so glad you
Speaker 1: brought up so many things that I hadn't even thought about.
Speaker 1: That's why I love these conversations, because, yeah, you went
Speaker 1: in so many directions. I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I forgot about that, or we haven't talked about that before.
Speaker 1: And I learned so much. And it's helpful for me
Speaker 1: to get a good understanding from your perspective and what
Speaker 1: your friends who have had babies think, because as a man,
Speaker 1: sometimes I can be distant from that.
Speaker 3: So when I realized this was the first topic that
Speaker 3: you thought of, I was like, damn, we're really getting
Speaker 3: into it.
Speaker 2: We are first episode out, and it's.
Speaker 1: Why didn't you just tell them to subscribe for more
Speaker 1: so that they can hear more of these conversations.
Speaker 3: Jane just asked me to tell you all to subscribe
Speaker 3: for more so you can hear more of these conversations
Speaker 3: and press like and share and stuff.
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, if you love that conversation, go and check
Speaker 1: out my episode with the world's leading therapist, Lourie Gottlieb,
Speaker 1: where she answers the biggest questions that people ask in
Speaker 1: therapy when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak, and dating.
Speaker 1: If you're trying to figure out that space right now,
Speaker 1: you won't want to miss this conversation. If it's a
Speaker 1: romantic relationship, hold hands.
Speaker 2: It's really hard to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems.
Speaker 2: Just hold hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely.