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Speaker 1: I'm thrilled this afternoon to be joined by Kelly Goff,

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Speaker 1: who is a contributor to The Daily Beast, to The

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Speaker 1: Hollywood Reporter, and a member of the on Strike Writers

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Speaker 1: Guild of America. We'll talk a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: this over the course of the afternoon, but basically, Kelly

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Speaker 1: can write anything about anything, from abortion politics, to donation politics,

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Speaker 1: to superheroes, to sex and the city. A tremendously talented person,

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Speaker 1: but she wrote a perfect essay, a perfect column, I

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Speaker 1: think for The Daily Beast. Kelly. I've said that if

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Speaker 1: I was teaching a course on politics, I would build

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Speaker 1: it around your essay because it has so much of

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Speaker 1: the basic ingredients of what it takes to understan stand

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Speaker 1: at a complex level what goes on in American politics,

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Speaker 1: why things are the way they are, with some important

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Speaker 1: elements of life lessons. And I just want to read

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the column to you. It begins by saying,

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Speaker 1: a few years ago, I had just begun my TV

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Speaker 1: writing career when I was warned by friends in the

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Speaker 1: industry not to publish a column critical of the fact

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Speaker 1: the Democrats, like Hillary Clinton, had for years accepted donations

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Speaker 1: from Harvey Weinstein and others like him. I did it anyway,

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Speaker 1: and when I read it, I laughed out loud, and

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Speaker 1: I just wonder, talking to you, what is it about

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Speaker 1: you that triggers that sense of defiance that when someone

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Speaker 1: tells you not to do something, it's a guarantee that

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Speaker 1: you're going to Where does that come from?

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Speaker 2: I just never learned my lesson. I think some people

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Speaker 2: would say after reading this column, I just never learn.

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Speaker 2: And I want to apologize the off the outset because

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Speaker 2: I think there's a little bit of a Wi Fi

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Speaker 2: issue on my end. So I'm gonna I hope your

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Speaker 2: listeners and viewers can hear me, Steve. But what you know,

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Speaker 2: I think part of it is my upbringing. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's so much talk about privilege and coastal elites versus

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Speaker 2: flyover country. I'm very proudly hie over a country my

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Speaker 2: fountin for much of their lives and uh and now

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Speaker 2: here I am getting to have a career where I

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Speaker 2: sit in air conditioning, working on a laptop and now

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Speaker 2: get to talk to you. And so I think there

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Speaker 2: is something about growing up in a system, in a

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Speaker 2: family that really is the epitome of the American dream

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Speaker 2: right that my family could start where they did and

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Speaker 2: I get to end up here. But there's a sense

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Speaker 2: when you grow up around people like my grandmother, who

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Speaker 2: was brilliant passed away at one hundred last year and

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Speaker 2: never really got the opportunity to use her brilliance, where

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Speaker 2: I think you grow up believing that you can't always

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Speaker 2: play by the rules because the rules weren't really written

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Speaker 2: with everyone in mind. And so because of that, I

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Speaker 2: tend to always question the rules and the people who

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Speaker 2: make them. Steve, and I think that's basically what this

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Speaker 2: column is.

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Speaker 1: Did she talk about what life was growing up in Texas?

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Speaker 1: She was born one hundred years ago, in the nineteen twenties.

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Speaker 1: Most people don't understand or really appreciate this, but most

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Speaker 1: of the Confederate memorials that there's a debate over in

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Speaker 1: the country were built in the nineteen twenties, and they

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Speaker 1: were built in a moment of cultural backlash after the

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Speaker 1: end of World War One, at a moment of black progress,

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Speaker 1: at a moment commensurate with black progress culturally, the Harlem Renaissance,

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Speaker 1: and so this backlash, all of these Confederate statues are

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Speaker 1: going up right, going up right, contemporaneous to your to

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Speaker 1: your grandmother's childhood coming down uh in your adulthood towards

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Speaker 1: the towards the end of her life. None of them

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Speaker 1: built really as memorials to the fallen on either side

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Speaker 1: of the Civil War, but really a political statement a

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Speaker 1: couple of generations later, to remind Black Americans about their

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Speaker 1: about their place. What did she instill in you from

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Speaker 1: that time, from that place that's formative to how you

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Speaker 1: see the world.

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Speaker 2: Well, she was born a year after women got the

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Speaker 2: right to vote, which still boggles my mind. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: so she was born a year and a half later.

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Speaker 2: And you know, what you said is really important and

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Speaker 2: profound because what you just said actually plays a big

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Speaker 2: role in why I work in this business, meaning as

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Speaker 2: a screenwriter, because Birth of a Nation, the horrifically racist

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Speaker 2: film that D. W. Griffith released, was a phenomenon and

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Speaker 2: was credited with single handedly increasing the presence and the

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Speaker 2: membership of the klu Klux Klan nationally. It's considered one

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Speaker 2: of the most successful films in history in terms of

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Speaker 2: cultural and political zeitgeist because that film and its depiction,

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Speaker 2: it's horrific depiction of you know, the every negative stereotype

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Speaker 2: you can think of in terms of blackness and particularly

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Speaker 2: black men, and and you know, the fear of the

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Speaker 2: dangers that they were supposed to pretend towards white women.

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Speaker 2: It led to a massive increase in membership of the

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Speaker 2: Ku Klux Klan. And so when I was in college, Steve,

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Speaker 2: I actually did my final thesis presentation was on the

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Speaker 2: political role of theater and film with an emphasis on

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Speaker 2: how it impacted race in America. And the conversation in

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Speaker 2: my presentation really started with that film. That that film

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Speaker 2: is proof of the cultural impact that screenwriting and filmmaking

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Speaker 2: and the arts can have on these conversations. So that's

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Speaker 2: the first part to answer your question.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: The second part is I can't even properly articulate the

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Speaker 2: impact she had on me, even though she was one

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Speaker 2: hundred and lived a very long life. Oh my god,

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Speaker 2: I'm getting emotional just talking about it. You're like Barbara

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Speaker 2: Walters seve. But she was so smart and so talented,

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Speaker 2: and she never had the opportunities I did and I have,

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Speaker 2: And so when I would hear her story, worries about

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Speaker 2: you know what it was like not just picking cotton,

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Speaker 2: but chopping it as my mother always reminds me. She said, no,

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Speaker 2: picking was the easy part. It was the chopping it, Kelly,

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Speaker 2: that was the really labor intensive, hard part, and that

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Speaker 2: made my mother want to better herself so she didn't

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Speaker 2: have to keep doing that into the next generation as well.

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Speaker 2: But but those lessons are the ones that stay with

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Speaker 2: me when I have the privilege to sit and you know,

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Speaker 2: partake in the opportunities I do today. I actually said

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Speaker 2: to one of the stars of one of the shows

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Speaker 2: I worked on. Its some racial stereotypes I was concerned about,

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Speaker 2: and I said, when I sit in these rooms and

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Speaker 2: on these sets, I'm there for every woman who never

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Speaker 2: got there. I'm there for women like my grandmother. And

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Speaker 2: that is how I feel about what we do. So

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Speaker 2: I consider what we do as screenwriters to be important.

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Speaker 2: And your on strike, yes, which is why I have

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Speaker 2: time to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: Or somebody who is watching this and looks at it

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Speaker 1: and thinks about Hollywood, and they think about the star.

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Speaker 1: So they're thinking about Jennifer Anison, right, They're thinking about

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Speaker 1: Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, Morgan Freeman, Denzel and Taylor Sheridan. Right,

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Speaker 1: he's a he's a writer. Everyone is on strike. Who

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Speaker 1: can you explain what it is like to work in

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Speaker 1: this industry? The thing that having been around it on

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Speaker 1: the periphery is that it is fundamentally sustained by the electricians,

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Speaker 1: the union contractors, right like this is a This is

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Speaker 1: a middle class, working class industry, including of a lot

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Speaker 1: of the working actors, a lot of the world working writers.

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Speaker 1: And this strike really is raising an issue that every

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Speaker 1: person who works is going to deal with, certainly almost

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Speaker 1: every person who works in what you would call a

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Speaker 1: white collar industry, right where intellectually they have been insulated

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Speaker 1: from the ferocity of the winds of globalization. White collar

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Speaker 1: workers as a general proposition, have not had to train

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Speaker 1: their replacements. But if you're a radiologist, you're an accountant,

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Speaker 1: you're all manner of lawyers. And so, for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: the first group into the line talking about this issue,

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Speaker 1: and it's profound ramifications for how we live, how we work,

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Speaker 1: and how we function as a society in the twenty

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Speaker 1: first century. It's the writers and it's the actors, right.

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Speaker 2: I think the easiest way perhaps to explain it to

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Speaker 2: your viewers and listeners, Steve, would be to say that

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Speaker 2: just as on every presidential campaign. There is a John McCain,

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Speaker 2: There are a lot of people who make that machinery work.

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Speaker 2: They are the people building the signs, there are the

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Speaker 2: people holding the signs. There are the people writing the speeches.

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Speaker 2: They're the people doing the phone banking. And a presidential

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Speaker 2: campaign can't function without all of those people. And the

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Speaker 2: difference between those people and a John McCain is, if

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Speaker 2: a John McCain loses the campaign, he'll actually be fine.

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Speaker 2: But there are certain people who, after the campaign is over,

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Speaker 2: may not know how they're going to pay their rent.

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Speaker 2: And the same goes for Amazon workers. For there's a

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Speaker 2: Jeff Bezos, and then there are the people delivering the packages.

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Speaker 2: And I think what a lot of people did not

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Speaker 2: realize until now is Hollywood functions very much the same way.

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Speaker 2: There are Tom cruises, there are Denzel Washington's, there are

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Speaker 2: Morgan Freeman's, and then there are the rest of us.

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Speaker 2: And so while we may not be struggling as much

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Speaker 2: as the actual Amazon delivery person, it's not always that

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Speaker 2: far off. And I actually think Steve that, strangely enough,

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Speaker 2: one of the people who best articulated the precariousness of

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Speaker 2: the positions of those of us, who I think a

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Speaker 2: lot of other people from places like my home state

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Speaker 2: probably thought I work as a cashier. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to hear these annoying writers griping about their fancy, gilded

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Speaker 2: cages and their six figure lives. Well, the person who actually,

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Speaker 2: I think explained how precarious our positions actually are better

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Speaker 2: than anyone was whichever producer leaked to Deadline that they

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Speaker 2: were waiting until octob or for us to become homeless

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Speaker 2: for them to come back to the table. They basically

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Speaker 2: let out the dirty little secret that I think a

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Speaker 2: lot of Americans who don't live in New York and

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Speaker 2: LA never realized, which is most writers and most actors

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Speaker 2: are only about two to three months away from being homeless.

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Speaker 2: And finally someone who pays us had the temerity and

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Speaker 2: the audacity to actually tell that to the press. That's

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Speaker 2: the truth. So that's why we're on strike, is that

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Speaker 2: things have been getting increasingly worse in this industry. And

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Speaker 2: I'm happy to explain some of the ways why, But

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Speaker 2: I don't want to get ahead of wherever this conversation

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Speaker 2: is going.

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Speaker 1: The question right that I was going to ask and

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Speaker 1: talking about the cashier and not to go down a

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Speaker 1: rabbit hole. But was at a concert at the Hollywood

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Speaker 1: Bawl and you go there and was with a bunch

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Speaker 1: of my fellow gen xers, and we're online, right to

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Speaker 1: get a beer in something to eat, and there's no people, right,

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Speaker 1: you are ordering from a machine which gives you a

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Speaker 1: number and the number rolls out, and this is not right.

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Speaker 1: At age fifty two, I can learn to do it

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Speaker 1: this way. Right, but this is a new experience, right

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Speaker 1: about how you go and get a beer at a

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Speaker 1: concert and what they have removed from the process, And

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Speaker 1: by day I mean management, are as many people from

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Speaker 1: the equation as possible. So if in fact you are

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Speaker 1: a cashier, you're living on borrow time, at the edge

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Speaker 1: of the age of the of the intelligent machine, and

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Speaker 1: like a lot of professions. And it seems to me

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Speaker 1: the writers and the actors are both taking an extremely

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Speaker 1: important stand on a fundamental proposition about the dignity and

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Speaker 1: importance of work to the happiness of a life. You know,

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Speaker 1: is it to be that there will be an incredibly

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Speaker 1: small class of people that are richer than any human

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Speaker 1: beings have ever been in the history of human civilization,

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Speaker 1: and everyone else is essentially popularized into a vassal state

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Speaker 1: who serves them across whatever industry of service, whether it's

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Speaker 1: writing their entertainment or delivering via a truck their pleasures.

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Speaker 2: I unfortunately think the short answer is yes. I think

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Speaker 2: that the people who are in charge across a lot

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Speaker 2: of these industries have no problem with the future you

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Speaker 2: just described, Steve. The reason we're on strike is because

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Speaker 2: we do have a problem with that. You know, I

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Speaker 2: find it again. I'm grateful to whichever exec made it

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Speaker 2: very clear that he expects a lot of us to

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Speaker 2: start struggling to pay our rents and our mortgages in

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Speaker 2: less than three months of a strike. He's absolutely right,

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Speaker 2: because I'm you know, I'm someone who is already looking

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Speaker 2: ahead to what I'm going to do financially just a

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Speaker 2: couple of months from now. I have plenty of friends

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Speaker 2: in the same position. And again, coming from I just

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Speaker 2: want to give some context here, coming from the background

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Speaker 2: I come from, you know, someone who could not have

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Speaker 2: attended college without financial aid, and you know who grew

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Speaker 2: up in a family who had really, you know, struggled

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Speaker 2: just to get where they were. And my parents were

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Speaker 2: the first in their family to go to college. So

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Speaker 2: for me, the idea of ever earning six figures sounded like,

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Speaker 2: you know, you're rich, right, That was kind of the

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Speaker 2: idea when I was growing up that who aren't six figures?

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Speaker 2: You know, people I went to school with their dads

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Speaker 2: were managers of grocery stores and construction workers who aren't

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Speaker 2: six figures. And then you and then I work as

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Speaker 2: a journalist, and we all know that doesn't pay well

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Speaker 2: particularly well either, So Hollywood really was the land of dreams.

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Speaker 2: And then you get there and you know, as I

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Speaker 2: think some of people have been reading in the articles,

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Speaker 2: our increases in pay have not kept up with inflation,

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Speaker 2: which is what up nine percent our increases in pay,

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Speaker 2: We're like one point five percent over a couple of years,

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Speaker 2: you make low six figures. And then we happen to

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Speaker 2: live in states that define themselves as progressive, which means

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Speaker 2: they progressively have very high tax rates. So let's say

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Speaker 2: you earn one hundred and twenty thousand dollars, which is

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Speaker 2: more money than my mother ever earned. Right, so for me,

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Speaker 2: that sounds like that might as well have been a

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Speaker 2: million dollars. And then you have city taxes, state taxes,

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Speaker 2: federal taxes, managers, lawyers, agents. Imagine playing for a sports

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Speaker 2: team where you're only paid per game and you're told

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Speaker 2: by your coach that even if they don't want to

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Speaker 2: bring you back, you can't even take meetings with people

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Speaker 2: at other teams about what you're going to do next year.

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Speaker 2: That's what it's like being in our business, Steve Is.

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Speaker 2: It's like scrambling from year to year hoping that you

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Speaker 2: can just break even a lot of times, and you're

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Speaker 2: lucky if you get to put something away. That's what

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Speaker 2: the business has become like increasingly. The last thing I

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Speaker 2: want to mention because I think it's important and it's

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Speaker 2: one of the things that's not being talked about publicly

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Speaker 2: because it's a bit like what talking about Harvey Weinstein

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Speaker 2: was ten years ago. Is a lot of the studios

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Speaker 2: and the production companies already engage in behavior that I

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Speaker 2: think could be considered abusive, but that very few people

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Speaker 2: speak about publicly. And I'm going to speak about it

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Speaker 2: right now. So I'll give you an example. I can't

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Speaker 2: say what the show was, I can't say who the

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Speaker 2: entity was producing it, but I will talk in broad

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Speaker 2: terms so my lawyer won't have a heart attack. I

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Speaker 2: worked on a project where we had a contract that

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Speaker 2: was guaranteed for a certain amount of time, certain amount

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Speaker 2: of money. I actually relocated for the project. Something happens,

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Speaker 2: and then the studio decides they don't want to pay

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Speaker 2: out what they owe the writers, and they tell our lawyers,

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Speaker 2: each of our visual lawyers, I mean, we'll we'll be

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Speaker 2: nice and we're willing to pay fifteen percent of what

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Speaker 2: you all think we owe. You. Now how to contract, Steve,

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Speaker 2: So follow up. Our lawyers follow up, and this is

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Speaker 2: what they were informed. We know what the contract says,

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Speaker 2: we know you interpret it that way, but our position

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Speaker 2: is we don't. And they're welcome to arbitrate, they're welcome

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Speaker 2: to sue, but you know, it's tough to have a

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Speaker 2: cordial relationship for future opportunities with people who have arbitrated

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Speaker 2: or sued. I call two of my mentors in the

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Speaker 2: business who'd been in the business over twenty years, and

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Speaker 2: walked them through what was happening and said, what do

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Speaker 2: you do. Each of them said, oh, this has happened

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Speaker 2: to me a couple times, so this is so does

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Speaker 2: that not sound like shades of Harvey Weinstein? It's you'll

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Speaker 2: never work with this town again, so people roll over.

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Speaker 2: So this is what it's like in the business with

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Speaker 2: the where I think other people think that we're just all,

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Speaker 2: you know, eating gold lollipops in and you know, have

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Speaker 2: people carrying us around and fanning us, you know, living

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Speaker 2: this gilded life. The Taylor Shardans, the Shonda Rhimes, God

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Speaker 2: bless them, but that is not what the life is

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Speaker 2: for most writers.

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Speaker 1: So you've described a couple of things, and I want

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Speaker 1: to balance on a two conversations just observationally. One is

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Speaker 1: about the economic conditions I think that shape politics in

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Speaker 1: the country, and they are at a top level. Right

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Speaker 1: you have forty percent of the country doesn't have four

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Speaker 1: hundred dollars cash available for an emergency, and no doubt

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Speaker 1: some of those people are making six figures a year.

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Speaker 1: And so if you live in a state like California

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Speaker 1: that's a high real estate, high tax state. If you

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Speaker 1: have kids in private school, you have a child that

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Speaker 1: has any type of special needs added on, you have

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Speaker 1: a parent whose health you're involved in, or any family

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Speaker 1: member that you're financially supportive of, you are squeezed to

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Speaker 1: death and have an inability really economically to climb the

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Speaker 1: ladder and get ahead, particularly when you when you look

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Speaker 1: at real estate prices in the in the Los Angeles area.

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Speaker 1: So so all, and.

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Speaker 2: Just to interject, because that's important, Steve. I want that's

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Speaker 2: important for your listeners to hear because a lot of

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Speaker 2: times I see move New York's California is expensive. Move.

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Speaker 2: I'm sick of hearing people complain move if this is

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Speaker 2: where your career is, where you move into So sorry,

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to say that.

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Speaker 1: So and then the other issue is is the executive

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Speaker 1: compensation right within the within the studios and how the

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Speaker 1: studios have spent money on their businesses. So for example,

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Speaker 1: right if the CEO of Netflix makes fifty million dollars

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Speaker 1: a year and and then his infinite wisdom, it was

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Speaker 1: his decision to sign one hundred million dollar contract for

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Speaker 1: whatever with Harry and Meghan because of whyever, and then

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Speaker 1: he's pleading poverty, right Or you look at the two

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Speaker 1: hundred million dollar salary from one studio executive the fifty

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Speaker 1: million dollars from another. And the thing that I always

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Speaker 1: think about in this is I remember the hotel I

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Speaker 1: would stay at in New York all the time during

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Speaker 1: my years of consulting in business, I would go down

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Speaker 1: for breakfast every morning, and I'd have the same thing

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Speaker 1: I would have. I'd have scrambled ecks, hash browns, orange juice, coffee,

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Speaker 1: ice water. I'd get the bill, one hundred and twelve dollars.

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Speaker 1: That was the that was the bill for the for

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Speaker 1: the meal, and and I would get that bill. Someone's

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Speaker 1: paying it the business right, whatever client would would sign

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Speaker 1: it without a thought tip, you know, tip the twenty

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Speaker 1: five thirty percent. But what I would think about is

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Speaker 1: why one hundred and twelve? Obviously, if I would pay

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Speaker 1: one hundred and twelve dollars right for the for the

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Speaker 1: three scrambled eggs and the hash browns, I'd pay one

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Speaker 1: hundred and thirty five, right, And so where does the

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Speaker 1: compensation come from?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: If you're the studio exact, making fifty million dollars a

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Speaker 1: year running a public company. And by the way, this

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Speaker 1: didn't exist when we were kids. If you made that

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Speaker 1: much money, right, if you made baseball players football players

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Speaker 1: didn't make that type of money. Nobody made you know

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Speaker 1: who made that? People like Ted Turner were billionaires. Right,

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Speaker 1: you had to do something extraordinary, right, But if you

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Speaker 1: were the public company CEO. Right, you made a lot

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Speaker 1: of money comparatively, but but you weren't living like a

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Speaker 1: like a Middle East crown pres.

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Speaker 2: So you hit the nail on the head. Because so

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Speaker 2: I'll give you a perfect example of that. Ryan Murphy

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Speaker 2: was paid three hundred million dollars by Netflix. That's the

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Speaker 2: guy who did Glee, Lee with a successful show. It

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Speaker 2: was not the most successful show in history. None of

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Speaker 2: his shows have been the most successful shows in history.

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Speaker 2: Netflix paid him three hundred million dollars. Guests who just

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Speaker 2: announced guess who had just came out that he's about

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Speaker 2: to sign with now Disney. So explain to me how

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Speaker 2: both of them are having money problems, see, but they

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Speaker 2: can afford I'm assuming he's not going to Disney for

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Speaker 2: significantly less than what Netflix just paid him, or he

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Speaker 2: would stay there. So we have Bob Iiger, we have

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Speaker 2: the guys at Netflix saying pleading poverty to those of

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Speaker 2: us that they say they can't afford to pay two

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars a year or two, but yet they

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Speaker 2: have the three hundred million and the two hundred million.

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Speaker 2: Patrese Kohlers from Black Lives Matter had a multimillion dollar

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Speaker 2: deal overall holding deal. Did it produce any content? Was

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Speaker 2: she an established black writer. No, But that was someone

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Speaker 2: throwing money right at a problem to look like they

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Speaker 2: were doing the right thing by progressives, instead of actually

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Speaker 2: doing something that would be perceived as legitimately progressive, which

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Speaker 2: is paying people a fair wage who actually have the

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Speaker 2: experience to do the job. So this is where we're at.

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Speaker 2: And you know, one of my friends is a producer.

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Speaker 2: She put it beautifully, She said, look listening to them

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Speaker 2: cry poverty after they've literally thrown over one hundred million

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Speaker 2: dollars at least twenty people across the industry, and then

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Speaker 2: turning around saying, we don't have the money to pay

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Speaker 2: the rest of you. It's the equivalent of a little

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Speaker 2: kid going to their parents who just said you only

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Speaker 2: get your allowance on Saturdays and Wednesday. They show up

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Speaker 2: and they say, well, mommy, daddy, I am out of money.

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Speaker 2: And then they say, but you only get your allowance

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Speaker 2: on Saturday. But I bought one big toy. I want

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Speaker 2: to go buy other toys. Now, that's not the fault

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Speaker 2: of the other toys at the store that you want,

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Speaker 2: that you spent your allowance on one big shiny toy

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Speaker 2: that either broke down or you don't actually enjoy playing

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Speaker 2: with that much. And that's what they're at asking us

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Speaker 2: to do, Steve. And it's not only as I think

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Speaker 2: it's morally wrong and unconscionable and un American, but also

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Speaker 2: we can't afford it, like I legitimately can't afford to

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Speaker 2: work for peanuts because you wanted to past one person

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Speaker 2: two hundred million dollars. It's just it's insane. It's it's insane.

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Speaker 2: I will lastly say this though, to your fundamental point,

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Speaker 2: you know, at least Taylor Sheridan and Shonda Rhimes and

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Speaker 2: Ryan Murphy are actual writers. The idea that, as one

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Speaker 2: of my closest friends who worked on Wall Street for

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Speaker 2: a long time said, is He said, Kelly, let me

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Speaker 2: get this straight. You have a bunch of guys who

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Speaker 2: can't write, can't direct, can't act, can't turn on a camera,

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Speaker 2: can't sing, can't dance, earning millions and millions of dollars,

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Speaker 2: to tell those of you who can actually do it

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Speaker 2: what to do? He said. He said, how does that?

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Speaker 2: How does that make sense? He said? It doesn't sound

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Speaker 2: right to me, It sounds right to you. Kenny, and

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Speaker 2: I thought, wait a minute, he's onto something. And here

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Speaker 2: we are a few months later at a strike.

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Speaker 1: When you think about this strike, we were talking about

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Speaker 1: your grandmother earlier in the world that she was born

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Speaker 1: into with an overwhelming likelihood. If you were a black

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Speaker 1: American in the nineteen twenties, in the nineteen thirties, and

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Speaker 1: you identified with a political party, that political party was

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party. It was the Party of Abraham Lincoln,

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Speaker 1: and that held until nineteen sixty four. And in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty four Civil Rights Act Voting Right Act is passed

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Speaker 1: and the parties undergo really a geographic switch arow on

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Speaker 1: fifty year basis, where the Republican Party becomes the party

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Speaker 1: the custodian of the lost myth of the lost cause,

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Speaker 1: the myth of the lost Cause becomes the home of

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Speaker 1: the neo Confederacy ideology of the revanchist uh anti civil

434
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: rights momentum, on the on the backlash, and the and

435
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: the point on this is these these political coalitions are fungible.

436
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 1: They move. There has always been a know nothing element,

437
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: a nativist element in American life. Slavery was not a

438
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: disputed moral issue at the time of the Revolution, you

439
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: had people, UH, mostly from the North, who looked at

440
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: their slaveholding fellow founding fathers with moral repugnance. UH were

441
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: appalled by it, but it was expedient in the in

442
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: the moment in time. So we go forward with these

443
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: shifting political coalitions, the issues largely stay the same. We

444
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: grow up in an era whereas a general proposition, the

445
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: Democratic Party is the party of labor, the Democratic Party

446
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: is the party of the working person. And what we've

447
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: seen over recent years really at a cultural level, and

448
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: you can see it manifested in something like the bud

449
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: Light Fiasco, where red America, working class America is deeply

450
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: alienated from Democrats culturally but also economically. And the point

451
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: of your column is to look at politics, to look

452
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: at these labels, to look at these structures where this

453
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: is all projected into politics by the national media that

454
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: looks at this very black and white, very linear right

455
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: on a scale left to right, and that's really not

456
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: how it functions because at the core, right, like in

457
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: all fights, there's a choice right, and it's like mommy

458
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: and daddy are fighting right or right. There's a divorce

459
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: and everyone has to pick what side they're going with

460
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: right in the friend group. And the fight is between

461
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: Wall Street and your partners, because at the end of

462
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: the day, Bob Iger surrandas, nobody can make anything without

463
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,479
Speaker 1: the actors, without the writers, without the directors, without the

464
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: electricians who bring all of this to life for the consumer.

465
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: And yet they would rather starve their partners than alienate

466
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: Wall Street. What does that say to you?

467
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 2: It says that, as I said in the column, they're

468
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 2: not nearly as progressive as they pretend to be. I mean,

469
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 2: I think that that's the you know, and you know

470
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: what's that saying about Hollywood? That Hollywood doesn't care about

471
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 2: black or white, it just cares about green. And I

472
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 2: think that that's the reality of what we're seeing. I mean,

473
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 2: it was interesting when you were talking see but I

474
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 2: actually was like, oh, I just want to sit back

475
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 2: and listen to the show instead of participating in the show,

476
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 2: because you were on a role. I think though, you know,

477
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 2: because a couple of things that you nailed so perfectly

478
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: is it wasn't just about Democrats allegedly being the party

479
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: of labor, but allegedly being the party of civil rights.

480
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: And you know, we started this conversation with me, you

481
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: asking where my defiance comes from and how I was,

482
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: you know, very clear about the fact that as much

483
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 2: as I spent so much of my youth wanting to

484
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 2: run away from Texas, I'm so glad that's where I

485
00:30:54,720 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 2: was born and bred because I think there is a

486
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 2: real sense of kind of challenging the status quo and

487
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: the boxes that people try to put you in. I mean,

488
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: for instance, I've long said that I thought I grew

489
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: up a Democrat in Tom DeLay's district in Texas until

490
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 2: I moved to the East Village of New York and

491
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 2: found out that there they felt that I was basically

492
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 2: a Republican, you know, because they were like, what are

493
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: you talking about charter schools? That's that's blasphemous, you know.

494
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: So I think that we're here right where both parties

495
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 2: have some work to do, a lot of work to do,

496
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 2: because I've always been very clear that I would love

497
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 2: to live for the day where a voter like me

498
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 2: is considered the soccer mom vote of the year. You know,

499
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 2: we're swing voters, and I think that what Tim Scott represents,

500
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 2: and particularly his willingness to really challenge DeSantis on what's

501
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 2: happening with the Florida curriculum in terms of black history

502
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 2: speaks to the fact that you know, there's opportunities in

503
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: that part, and you know, I think that this situation

504
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: with the strike Steve really speaks to Democrats either putting

505
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: up or shutting up in terms of where their values are,

506
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 2: because the irony is here. You have this party that's

507
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 2: been so chastised as being the party of Hollywood elites,

508
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: and that's where they are, and it's like, well, it

509
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: turns out they actually are the party of the Hollywood elites.

510
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: I just think a lot of us didn't realize how

511
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: elite the party was, that it really was only the

512
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 2: elites who run the studios and networks, not just the

513
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: people that the Obama's attend parties with right who are

514
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 2: Hollywood celebrities. That the people that it seems to me

515
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 2: that Democratic power brokers are so far not willing to

516
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: call to the carpet are the people who signed the

517
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 2: checks for them as donors, as people who produce their projects.

518
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 2: There's not a single major studio head that Kamala Harris

519
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 2: doesn't know, Steve, because that's how she built her political career.

520
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 2: It started as California ag there's not a single person

521
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: in charge she can't pick up the phone and talk to.

522
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,719
Speaker 2: But my read of it is, you know, as one

523
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: of my friends who read my column and called an ask,

524
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,479
Speaker 2: they said, you're so right, where are the Democrats? Why?

525
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 2: You know, why aren't they saying anything? I said, because

526
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: I don't think they figured out how to chastise Bob

527
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:18,959
Speaker 2: Iger in the same phone call where they're gonna ask

528
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: them for a big check. They haven't figured out how

529
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 2: to do it. They don't want to do it. And

530
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 2: if that's how they're going to treat the people in

531
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 2: Hollywood who actually are more likely to donate to them,

532
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: I understand why a voter in Michigan went trust them.

533
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 2: I mean, who would do you know what you mean?

534
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: Who would trust them? So I am not particularly I'm

535
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 2: a fairly optimistic person. I'm not particularly hopeful for this

536
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: election cycle because so far it seems like, you know,

537
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 2: both parties aren't exactly bringing their a game to the table,

538
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 2: at least not in terms of the average voter. And

539
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 2: that's a bummer, you know, as someone who cares about

540
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,239
Speaker 2: this country and very much cares about the process, and

541
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: cares about the fact that people who looked like me

542
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: died to get the chance to vote, and this is

543
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 2: the best our country can do. I mean, that's that's

544
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 2: not a great statement on us right now.

545
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: I want to come back to that in a second,

546
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: but I wanted to ask you about really the fight

547
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: right to strike itself. So at the beginning of any fight,

548
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 1: there's a lot of enthusiasts, a lot of bravado. You know,

549
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: if we were talking about guys, right, like I'd be saying, like,

550
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: the testosterone is flowing, right, but the energy's coming right,

551
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: everyone is out there six weeks later, right, two months later,

552
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: three months later, different story. Right. This is hard every

553
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: day to be on the picket lines, to hold up,

554
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 1: to not give in. And there are only two ways

555
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: right to win a fight. You you either bring your

556
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: opponent to submission where they bring you to exhaustion. So

557
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: perfect historical analogies Japan and Germany are what submission looks like.

558
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: Exhaustion is what the United States looks like after Vietnam,

559
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: after Afghanistan. Right, the cost of the fight is too much,

560
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 1: and so when you talk about will starve them out,

561
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 1: we'll call it the Vicksburg strategy. Right, They're gonna they're

562
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 1: gonna siege the w g A and the working actors

563
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 1: and until they break them financially. Right, you break morale

564
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: and you break well. Now what what what typically people

565
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: don't understand psychologically, and this goes to the defiant streak,

566
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: is that when you bomb cities, for example in World

567
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: War Two, like London, instead of breaking morale, what it

568
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 1: did is hard in it. So what I wanted to

569
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: ask you is what is the morale on the picket line?

570
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: You know, in the fight. It's It's clear to me

571
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: I think as a as a as an observer of it. Right,

572
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: it's not ending any anytime soon. It's going to the

573
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: long haul. It may be the case that UPS and

574
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: the Teamsters are are still on strike, and my personal

575
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: view is is that the American labor movement is going

576
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: to be fundamentally rehabilitated through this strike because these issues

577
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: around artificial intelligence are are profound issues. But what is

578
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: the morale like on that?

579
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: I agree? So it's so interesting you said, so the

580
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 2: first part of your description I would say was accurate.

581
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 2: It was what was starting to happen where I think,

582
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,439
Speaker 2: you know, the first couple of weeks it was like fun.

583
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,959
Speaker 2: I mean, I hate to that sounds funny. Running into

584
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: people you haven't seen in a long time on the

585
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 2: picket line and lots of hugs and lots of like.

586
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 2: And by the way, I don't know a single person

587
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 2: in Hollywood, Steve who hasn't been demeaned in some horrific way.

588
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,919
Speaker 2: It's just it is so entrenched and ingrained in the

589
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 2: culture and in the business that I think it really

590
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 2: it wasn't just about us being taken advantage of financially,

591
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 2: but every single one of us has a story. I mean,

592
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: in my case, I remember being on a conference call

593
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,399
Speaker 2: with my lawyer and someone who was trying to cheat

594
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 2: us in a deal that they signed, and the person

595
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 2: said to my lawyer with me on the call, what

596
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 2: Kelly Goff has to understand is in this town, she's

597
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 2: a nobody. Here's exact words, where she's a nobody in

598
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 2: this town. And I know what you're both saying, and

599
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: I still don't want to do it. And that's how

600
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 2: people speak to you. And this is it doesn't matter

601
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,919
Speaker 2: how long you've been working, how many awards you've won.

602
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: So that is the mindset. So that's to say that

603
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: the strike is about more than that. In the same

604
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: way that Me Too was about more than her. Harvey,

605
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 2: I'm seeing it's women saying I'm mad as hell, I'm

606
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 2: not going to take it anymore, And that's what's happening

607
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 2: on the picket lines. But you know, you're right, after

608
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 2: a few weeks, a lot of that, like I kind

609
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 2: of turned into hey, you know, we're back here again,

610
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,760
Speaker 2: picketing until the gift that keeps on giving that awful

611
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 2: article where they said we can't wait for them to

612
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 2: become homeless because then they'll come crawling back to the table.

613
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: Oh my god, the way people return to that picket

614
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 2: line in force, and to say, you know, words I

615
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,879
Speaker 2: can't say on your podcast, but like that, to say

616
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 2: that we're really going to stick it to the man

617
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 2: and says that they want to see children homeless. It

618
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 2: reinvigorated us. And then having the actors join us on

619
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: the picket line too, where you know it's it's pushing

620
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,760
Speaker 2: people to a breaking point until they say the status

621
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,439
Speaker 2: quo will not hold. And I think what they weren't

622
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 2: ready for, Steve is you know when you were talking

623
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 2: about exhaustion, I think they didn't realize how many of

624
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 2: us were exhausted already. You know how many of us

625
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 2: had been demean so much by so many people in

626
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 2: so many ways in this business that staying on a

627
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 2: picket line and having someone not return your calls that's

628
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 2: the easy part. What some of us have been put

629
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 2: through by studios and networks and powerful people, that's the

630
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 2: harder part. So I think they underestimated the will there.

631
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 2: And one thing I know for certain is they are

632
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 2: going to runt of content. I'm already starting to hear

633
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 2: from the concerns right that they're worried they're going to

634
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 2: not get some of these viewers back, particularly to late

635
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: night shows. Those viewers have already started finding other ways

636
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 2: to fill their time. Barb and Hizheimer. That phenomenon prove

637
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 2: that people want good old school content that they can

638
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 2: watch on a movie screen. So they're going to have

639
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 2: to come up back to us at some point. Now,

640
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: the reality, despite the rosy picture I kind of painted,

641
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 2: is not everyone's going to still be in the business

642
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 2: by the time they come back to us, and that's unfortunate.

643
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 2: But I do believe that at the end of the day,

644
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 2: we as in the creatives, will prevail because, as I

645
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 2: like to say, Steve everyone compares Hollywood to high school.

646
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 2: You know, you got the jocks, you got the prom queens,

647
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 2: you got the nerds. The writers are the nerds. I

648
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 2: compare it more to a car dealership, where you can't

649
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: have more car salesman on the floor than you have cars,

650
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: and you certainly can't have of the people selling the

651
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 2: cars earning significantly more than it costs to build the Ferrari.

652
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: And you certainly can't have them coming in on a

653
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 2: helicopter every day, not even knowing how a car works,

654
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 2: and trying to sell a car. In Hollywood, the writers

655
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:41,919
Speaker 2: and the actors, we're the cars. So we're the ones

656
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: who are actually necessary for the industry to run. It's

657
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 2: the other guys who's just forgotten that, and the strike

658
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 2: is reminding them of that.

659
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 1: Is there a recognition amongst the writers and actors that

660
00:40:55,640 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 1: you're on the backside of a golden age of television

661
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: and creation and streaming where an extraordinary volume of what

662
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:19,720
Speaker 1: I think will be regarded as masterpieces of the genre

663
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: right of film that were rendered for the small screen.

664
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: That this era just economically is coming to an end

665
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,439
Speaker 1: because it's not sustainable. Is there a broad recognition of

666
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: that or do people on the picket line believe that

667
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 1: things will kind of stay the same post strike as

668
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: the industry rolls forward and goes on.

669
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 2: It can't say the same, It can't stay the same.

670
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,399
Speaker 2: I think the I think there's a clear understanding that

671
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 2: the industry as is is not working. I think the

672
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 2: issue for debate is the analogy I just used. I

673
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 2: think that the execs will tell you that there are

674
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 2: too many cars right and not enough of them, that

675
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 2: they're going to be their perception of Wall Street. That

676
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 2: the person who used to be an AT and T

677
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 2: and who got into TV and film in the same

678
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 2: way that billionaires buy sports teams, they know nothing about

679
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 2: that They're not the problem, right. The players that they

680
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,399
Speaker 2: need to trade are always the problem. It's never them

681
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 2: who's the problem. Once they fulfill their childhood dream of

682
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 2: buying a sports team. It's the same mentality. I would

683
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 2: actually say, though, Steve, if I'm being candid, that the

684
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 2: question that we're probably not all in agreement on, even

685
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: on a picket line, And I have friends who might

686
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 2: view this differently, but I'm just going to say it

687
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 2: from my perspective. I think the real question mark is

688
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 2: when the golden age was Some of the people who've

689
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,760
Speaker 2: mentored me in the business would say the golden age

690
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 2: was Hill Street Blues, the Cosby Show, Saint Elsewhere, where

691
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 2: you had fabulous TV, but it was still a small

692
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 2: enough business where you didn't have a lot of suits.

693
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: We're putting, so we're talking those shows are nineteen eighties,

694
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: eighty four, eighty five, Lady eighties, right, and a.

695
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 2: Lot of the shows that are still considered the gold standard.

696
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 2: Right where you had Golden Girls, you had all of

697
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 2: these shows that were critically acclaimed. Cadney and Lacy, they

698
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 2: won awards, that they could do storylines on things like

699
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 2: abortion and people's heads didn't explode, and they it was

700
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 2: television that was about something meaningful and special but still entertaining,

701
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,879
Speaker 2: not polarizing, and there wasn't a lot of it. You'd

702
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 2: have twenty two episodes, twenty six episodes on networks and

703
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 2: your audience wasn't divided between four hundred different streamers and

704
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 2: four hundred different cable channels.

705
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: So this was a recognition that that's never coming back.

706
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 2: Right, right, exactly, so exactly, So I think that's what

707
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:00,959
Speaker 2: I mean by splitting the differ fronts because to kids

708
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 2: younger than me, they would probably agree with you that

709
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: the streaming era has been the golden age. But I'm

710
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 2: not sure, right, I'm not sure. Maybe there needs to

711
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 2: be a little bit of a reset in some capacity,

712
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 2: And I'm not sure what that looks like, because i

713
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 2: don't think I'm smart enough to formulate that as a

714
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 2: business standpoint. But I would say that the version now

715
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 2: where you have hundreds of pieces of content, some that

716
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 2: are barely being sustained budget wise, and others where one

717
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 2: person's been given three hundred million dollars and the given fifty,

718
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 2: that modeling sustainable.

719
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: I was in a town in Vietnam, in mar Troy On, Vietnam,

720
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: and it's a fifteenth century Dutch trading port on the

721
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 1: Perfume River, a lot of bars, a lot of nightlife.

722
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 1: And come up on this bar, international crowd watching a

723
00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:01,280
Speaker 1: soccer game, and two Vietnamese women in the early twenties

724
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: and they're singing four non blondes. Right. You know, if

725
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: you think about US British Western music, but you know,

726
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: one of the things that makes America a powerful country

727
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: is America's culture, which is a wellspring of American freedom.

728
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: It's admired all over the world. Right, and so our creators,

729
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: our artists, our singers, our writers, our directors put America's

730
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: face forward in a much better way, for example, than

731
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: do America's politicians as just a as just a general

732
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 1: prom as just a general proposition when when looking at

733
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 1: this when when you think about the the the issues

734
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:57,760
Speaker 1: in this strike, which are really the Studio Wall Street

735
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: wanting to live in a world of the quarterly return,

736
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 1: where ninety days is as far as the horizon will

737
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: ever see, and they want to take what's really at

738
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: its core, something that's connected to every person in the

739
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: country at some levels as a consumer, and turn it

740
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: into a widget business, and to turn the writers and

741
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: the actors and the artists into their version of a

742
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: fast food worker who could be exploited to the maximum advantage.

743
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,280
Speaker 1: And you know, I think, for example, the Starbucks strike

744
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: is a great harbinger of this, right, and the proposition

745
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: was you're a Starbucks fast food worker and the CEO

746
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,720
Speaker 1: calls you his partner. Though you never get to ride

747
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: on the private plane right right, or to write, or

748
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: to enjoy in any of those perks, but you're the partner.

749
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 1: You're making you know, fifteen bucks an hour or thirteen

750
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: dollars an hour, wherever it may be. And you're a cog, dispensable,

751
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: replaceable by a machine. And so the dignity of the

752
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: society right, whether it's the writers here and the ups

753
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 1: drivers here, in the Starbucks people here, everybody, including teachers

754
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: and accountants and radiologists, is increasingly in the same boat.

755
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: As you can cut cost with intelligent machines to increase

756
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: the return of profit, to pay a CEO more by

757
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: meeting a metric except by Wall Street that has no

758
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: regard whatsoever for any human capital, and that's not capitalism.

759
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, so, first of all, you know, if we

760
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 2: were church, you would have gotten an amen in a

761
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 2: well well as in the southern churches. I'm sure you've

762
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 2: visited a few on campaign I have. So what I

763
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 2: would say is yes, and the proof is in the putting,

764
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 2: so to speak. I believe that weirdly, one of the

765
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,320
Speaker 2: things that could help lead to a conclusion of this

766
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 2: strike is the Barbenheimer phenomenon. I finally saw Barbie with

767
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 2: a screenwriter friend yesterday, and the fact that those two films,

768
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: films that never could have been made by chat GP

769
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 2: or Ai have become the phenomenon that they did have

770
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 2: become bigger phenomenons in some of the superhero films than

771
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 2: the Mission Impossible film. It speaks to the fact that

772
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,439
Speaker 2: we're not as replaceable as widgets as the executive thought

773
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 2: we were. I think that is actually the story why

774
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 2: that those films are getting so much coverage. Barbie's about

775
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 2: to break a billion dollars worldwide. Greta Gerwick, who I'm

776
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 2: a huge fan of, is really for all intents and purposes,

777
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 2: She's like an old school screenwriter, and I mean that

778
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 2: in the best sense of the term. You know, an

779
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 2: Oscar nominated traditionalist film uh screenwriter and now the most

780
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:22,439
Speaker 2: successful female film director in history. So that doesn't get

781
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 2: made by machines. And the success of those two films

782
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: sends the message that we're not as replaceable as the

783
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 2: exec thot we were.

784
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: Have you seen Oppenheimer?

785
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 2: Not yet? Next? I couldn't do all five hours.

786
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 1: It is a It is a deep movie, pretty pretty

787
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 1: amazing stuff. I have one other question that I wanted

788
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,479
Speaker 1: that I wanted to ask you today, Like when I

789
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: when I read about you that was totally fascinated by

790
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: is the BlackBerry? Are you how long did you go

791
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 1: on the BlackBerry? You're not still using a black ferry?

792
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 2: They it's still on it?

793
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:08,360
Speaker 1: Can I receive does it? Does it fundho? No?

794
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 2: No, But I have so many tacts in it and

795
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 2: so many notes to myself in it. I was one

796
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 2: of the last holdouts. Even when it was announced in

797
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 2: the New York Times that they had shut down the service,

798
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 2: I received condolence notes from people all over the world

799
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 2: who know me and mine still functioned for a couple

800
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 2: of months, and steve to tell me what to hold out.

801
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 2: I was. I The way I found out it was

802
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 2: no longer working because they finally just gave up on

803
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 2: trying to contact me because I could I wouldn't respond,

804
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 2: is that they just shut it off. And I found

805
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 2: out from friends who started emailing and saying I've been

806
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 2: leaving texting you where are you? That was how I

807
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 2: found out that they shut it off.

808
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: About it and the last BlackBerry holdouts.

809
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 2: Every day.

810
00:50:51,440 --> 00:51:00,839
Speaker 1: I again, I think that the column that you wrote

811
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 1: so perfectly encapsulates politics and its realities and the choices,

812
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 1: and in fact that it's not two teams, it's two

813
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 1: powerful institutions that exist for the purposes of political power

814
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: that have to make accommodations and choices within their coalitions

815
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: that tell us a lot over time about who those

816
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 1: parties are and what they stand for and what they believe.

817
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:45,240
Speaker 1: I thought it was a really sophisticated piece and something

818
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 1: that everybody should read and will put it up because

819
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: this moment of politics is right at the edge of

820
00:51:55,280 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: a massive disruption because the country, and it comes back

821
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 1: to this position of defiance. The country is saying to

822
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: its political parties and its political leaders, we do not

823
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: want the round peg you are delivering to us. We

824
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:21,399
Speaker 1: want a square one. And the powers that be here

825
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 1: essence saying you're getting a round one. You're getting the

826
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: Biden Trump rematch, and the country doesn't want it. And

827
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 1: what really unites people in this country, the national character

828
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: is defiance. And so any time you try to impose

829
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 1: top down, particularly from a top down politics perspective, what's

830
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 1: going to be the country typically has a bad reaction

831
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 1: to it. So it's going to be a very volatile,

832
00:52:55,760 --> 00:53:00,879
Speaker 1: very uncertain, really crazy and I think unpredicted year where

833
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 1: a lot of things are gonna happen that are different

834
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: than then the experts are telling us. And I think

835
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 1: one of the things that's happening right now that is

836
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 1: of huge importance to the type of American economy we're

837
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 1: gonna have, how people are gonna live, how they're gonna work,

838
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: how they're gonna get paid. Is this writer strike that

839
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,879
Speaker 1: you're on. It's important. I know it's tough, and good

840
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: luck out there, and you know, just know that. I

841
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 1: think there's millions of people out there across the country

842
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: that that are that are very much going to be

843
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 1: affected by this. So hank tough in the days in

844
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 1: the days ahead. It's going to go on for a

845
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 1: long while.

846
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 2: Good to be with you.

847
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: Thank you,