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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: I'm Sabrina Embler, and I wrote what was She Thinking?

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Speaker 2: An investigation for Defector and it's the story of the week.

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Speaker 1: On a Friday morning in twenty twelve, back when her

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Speaker 1: husband was just the host of The Apprentice, Malania Trump

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Speaker 1: went on Twitter and did something strange. Milania basically posts

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Speaker 1: two categories of things, the vegetables that she almost exclusively

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Speaker 1: eats and pictures of herself. But this was different. She

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Speaker 1: tweeted a picture of a beluga whale. This thing's like

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Speaker 1: a headshot for this blubbery, smiling whale with a mouthful

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Speaker 1: of teeth and a heartful of love. And most bizarre

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Speaker 1: of all, she wrote this caption that said what is

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Speaker 1: she thinking? The post became a huge meme because it

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Speaker 1: was so odd, brand so bizarre. Maybe it was just

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Speaker 1: a moment of genuine curiosity from an otherwise cryptic figure.

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Speaker 1: Looking at it, we all couldn't help but ask what

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Speaker 1: was she thinking?

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Speaker 3: Writing is hard? Who's got that kind of time when

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Speaker 3: you're already busy trying to be You all stand so

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Speaker 3: it turns on a mike. Maybe the twitle is enough

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Speaker 3: because a journalist friend has got in that gible Times

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Speaker 3: single story. Just listen to Smart People Speak conversation film

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Speaker 3: with Information. It's the story of the week.

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Speaker 1: Sabrina Imbler, who covers the creature beat for Defector Media,

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Speaker 1: cracked open this eleven year old cold case and tracked

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Speaker 1: down the actual whale that Malania tweeted a picture of

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Speaker 1: and got pretty close to figuring out what this whale

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Speaker 1: might have been thinking the moment that photo was snapped.

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Speaker 1: Sabrina Imbler, thank you so much for coming on. I

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Speaker 1: think you're are first creatures writer that we've had on

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Speaker 1: the show. That's how Bob Woodward started, right.

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Speaker 2: Oh I didn't know that, didn't he was? He was

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Speaker 2: on the creature Oh okay, I would have been deeply inspired.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I think more people should

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Speaker 2: be on the creature beat.

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Speaker 1: And there are a lot of creatures out there compared

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Speaker 1: to even humans. We really overcover humans absolutely. Okay, why

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Speaker 1: were you looking through old Malania Trump tweets?

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Speaker 2: This story actually came to me because one of my

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Speaker 2: coworkers at Defector, Drew McGarry, who's a very funny guy,

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Speaker 2: DMed me and he said he wasn't high, so I'll

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Speaker 2: take him at his word.

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Speaker 1: That's the first sign that someone's high.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, he was like, hey, remember that Malania tweet like

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Speaker 2: what do beluga whales think about? And it was a

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Speaker 2: really interesting question because I think, you know, the first

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Speaker 2: time I saw that tweet, I was like, how funny,

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Speaker 2: how surreal? Like why did Malania tweet that? But right,

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Speaker 2: she really had her finger on the pulse of a

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Speaker 2: question that a lot of scientists think about, which is

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Speaker 2: what do you animals? Yeah? Yeah, I mean, and also

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Speaker 2: probably just people who are high as well who can

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Speaker 2: be philosophers.

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Speaker 1: Such a thin line between those two things.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I decided that it could be really fun

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Speaker 2: to take this question and investigate it as seriously as

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Speaker 2: I possibly could.

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Speaker 1: Is there any chance that she plagiarized this tweet from Michelle?

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Speaker 2: Oh, mama, that is a very good question that I

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Speaker 2: honestly should have incorporated into my investigation.

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Speaker 1: Okay, describe beluga whales. I actually didn't really know what

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Speaker 1: they looked like until your story. They're they're not whale sized.

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Speaker 1: They're like bigger than a dolphin, but smaller than what

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Speaker 1: I think it was a whale. And they're they're kind

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Speaker 1: of a light color. They're very smooth there, they have

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Speaker 1: these kind of sparkly eyes and this hump in the front.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so blucas they have a big, a big hump

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Speaker 2: in the front kind of on their forehead and it's

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Speaker 2: called their melon, which is so cute. And the melon

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Speaker 2: at the front helps them sense the world through echolocation,

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Speaker 2: which is really helpful if you're living under vast sheets

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Speaker 2: of ice, but you are a mammal that needs to

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Speaker 2: breathe air, and so they use their melon to sort

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Speaker 2: of identify in the vast distance of the Arctic places

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Speaker 2: in the ice sheet where there are gaps where they

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Speaker 2: can sort of come up to breathe. So it is

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Speaker 2: a very crucial tool for their lifestyle.

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Speaker 1: That seems insane now that you're saying it, Like they

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Speaker 1: have to breathe like we do, but they're stuck underwater

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Speaker 1: under ice, like that's my nightmare.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, it's not a point of panic at all,

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Speaker 2: which is truly wild to me, terrifying to us. But

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Speaker 2: for a bluga whale, like their whole world is sound

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Speaker 2: and clicks and echo location, so they're again not bothered,

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Speaker 2: which bless them. That is my nightmare, trapped under icy

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Speaker 2: water in infinite darkness.

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Speaker 1: Again, this gets to what is she thinking. This is

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Speaker 1: the question that Malania is posing, and it's the same

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Speaker 1: question This incredibly famous philosophy essay called what is it

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Speaker 1: Like to Be a Bat? That Thomas Nagel wrote in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four asks, and it's really attempting to solve

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Speaker 1: what's now called like the hard problem of consciousness, Like

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Speaker 1: can you ever know what anyone besides yourself is thinking?

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Speaker 1: And he tries to get people to think about what

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Speaker 1: it's like to be a bat. We could kind of

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Speaker 1: like imagine what it's like to fly or not be

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Speaker 1: able to see what our visual perception, but we don't

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Speaker 1: know what that feels like, right, Like we can objectively

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Speaker 1: know what they're doing, but that doesn't get us close

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Speaker 1: to what it feels like to be that other being.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we can never know, however much we learn about echolocation,

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Speaker 2: about the way that they fly, about what it is

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Speaker 2: like to hang upside down for like a really long

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Speaker 2: period of time or eat bugs, like, we'll just never know.

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Speaker 2: And that's kind of what Malania was getting at.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps unknowingly, I have no idea what goes on in

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Speaker 1: her mind any more than a bats, So maybe she

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Speaker 1: was having this deep thought right.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I better understand what it's like to be a

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Speaker 2: bat than I do to be Malania Trump.

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Speaker 1: So one of the first ways you went about trying

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Speaker 1: to answer this question is to do that objective work

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Speaker 1: of knowing what a bluego whale. Objectively, you know what

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Speaker 1: their life is like. So what did you find out

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Speaker 1: that kind of helped you?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 2: As I was writing this story, I was thinking a

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Speaker 2: lot about the idea of an umlaut, which is like

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Speaker 2: an individual animal or species perception of the world. And

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Speaker 2: all of our oommelts are different as humans, like we

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Speaker 2: can rely on vision, but can we see ultraviolet light

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Speaker 2: like No? Like can we perceive echolocation?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: And so we sort of have We each have these

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Speaker 2: slivers of the world that we're able to sense and perceive.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, within a species even like we all sort

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Speaker 2: of are more tuned to different parts of that sliver.

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Speaker 2: Some of us are blind and so we rely more

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Speaker 2: on hearing or other senses.

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Speaker 1: What is the umwhalt of a bluego whale?

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Speaker 2: So the umwelt of a bluego whale is primarily sound

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Speaker 2: for being able to sense prey at a distance, being

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Speaker 2: able to sense other beluga whales at a distance, like

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Speaker 2: they're very social. Sometimes there will be aggregations of like

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Speaker 2: thousands of belugas and it's so loud because they're all

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Speaker 2: calling to each other. They're all, you know, vocalizing, and.

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Speaker 1: What does it sound like when there's a bunch of

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Speaker 1: bluega whales together.

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Speaker 2: One of the researchers I spoke to. Her name is

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Speaker 2: Valeria Vergara, and she's a great name. Yeah, she's she's amazing,

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Speaker 2: But she was basically like, it feels like you're walking

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Speaker 2: in a jungle with like thousands of birds that are

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Speaker 2: all calling, Like it's just a cacophony. Like it's so

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Speaker 2: so loud.

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Speaker 1: And they have individual names that they respond to or

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Speaker 1: that they how does that work?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's another thing that I learned. So names

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Speaker 2: are pretty rare in the animal kingdom. Like we obviously

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Speaker 2: have our own name, and to sort of communicate with us,

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Speaker 2: other people will call.

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Speaker 1: Out our name, like Valaria Nara. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yes, some animals like bottlenose dolphins and perhaps belugas like Valaria.

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Speaker 2: Is still working on this research, but it has been

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Speaker 2: confirmed in bottle nose dolphins that they have sort of

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Speaker 2: signature whistles so to announce themselves. They'll like vocalize their

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Speaker 2: signature whistle, and then everyone who hears that will be like, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's that specific dolphin, not just like, oh that's a dolphin.

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Speaker 2: And so this sort of helps beluga whales understand who's

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Speaker 2: around them. It's very sophisticated.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but Malania is not asking about beluga whales in general.

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Speaker 1: She's asking about this beluga whale at this very moment.

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Speaker 1: So how do you possibly go about answering that?

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Speaker 2: So I reverse image searched the photo that she tweeted,

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Speaker 2: and so that actually came up with this German news

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Speaker 2: site called Der Spiegel.

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Speaker 1: Oh Der Spiegel's like, uh it is like the Time

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Speaker 1: magazine of Germany.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, amazing. So I had not heard of them

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Speaker 2: before this investigation. But it was basically like, did you

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Speaker 2: know that the US Navy like uses marine mammals as spies.

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Speaker 1: There's so many shocking things you just told me, but

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Speaker 1: perhaps the biggest is that Malania Trump is reading Derspiegel.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if it's the Time magazine of Germany, like,

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Speaker 2: good on her.

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Speaker 1: So she's reading Der Spiegel while her husband's you know,

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Speaker 1: taping The Apprentice, and she runs across this fascinating story.

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Speaker 1: Did you know that militaries employee like sea mammals.

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Speaker 2: I did know that they had used dolphins, but I

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Speaker 2: didn't know that they had used beluga whales.

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Speaker 1: So when are we talked about the military budget? This?

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Speaker 1: This explains it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's enormous. It's enormous. A lot of

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Speaker 2: a lot of animal science is actually funded by the

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Speaker 2: Department of Defense, which is a weird truth that I

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Speaker 2: think about every day.

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Speaker 1: This is crazy. So, of course, now you need to

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Speaker 1: call the Navy in I do need.

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Speaker 2: To call the name.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I emailed a wonderful spokesperson named Darien Wilson, and I said, hello,

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Speaker 2: I'm a serious reporter working on a story about bluego whales.

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Speaker 2: Do you recognize this bluego whale? Within a day, Darien,

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Speaker 2: bless his heart, responds, yes, it was incredible.

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Speaker 1: When we come back, we'll find out how this particular

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Speaker 1: beluga whale decided to enlist with the US Navy. But first,

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Speaker 1: our advertisers are going to tempt you with an exotic

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Speaker 1: vacation to go whaling. Wait, this can't be right. They

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Speaker 1: must mean whale watching. No, it says whaling. So once

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Speaker 1: you found out that this whale was part of the

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Speaker 1: Navy Marine Mammal Program. You actually found this specific whale

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Speaker 1: in the picture that Malania tweeted.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Darien, the spokesperson for this program, responds and he says,

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Speaker 2: that's a picture of our navy mail blue. No Sum

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Speaker 2: also known as No C. Why No s The researchers

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Speaker 2: nicknamed him No C after these biting midges called no

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Speaker 2: Sums because I think they're really small and they bite you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're in Florida.

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Speaker 2: No C was one of six beluga whales that were

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Speaker 2: captured legally in nineteen seventy seven off the coast of Manitoba.

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Speaker 2: And this was a time in the US Navy Marine

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Speaker 2: Mammal Program where they were trying to experiment to see

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Speaker 2: like what sea creatures work well, not as spies, but

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Speaker 2: as you know, as troops.

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Speaker 1: I definitely do not know what do you mean as troops.

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Speaker 2: So, like they were working with bottlenose dolphins to do

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Speaker 2: like mind detection and recover torpedoes. And if you have

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Speaker 2: the power of echolocation, like you, you are so good

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Speaker 2: at finding those things in a way that our human

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Speaker 2: technology has yet to catch up with. I also learned

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Speaker 2: like they worked with sea lions, They tried to work

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Speaker 2: with sea turtles, and sort of after this period they

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Speaker 2: sort of winnowed down the marine animals that they were

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Speaker 2: interested in working with.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, now, did Nosey do a good job as

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Speaker 1: a troop?

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Speaker 2: So it seems like he did, although the Navy eventually

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Speaker 2: stopped working with beluga whales because I think they were

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Speaker 2: just kind of too big and like it was easier

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Speaker 2: to work with dolphins which were smaller.

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Speaker 1: Wait, they fat shamed Nosey.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, They're truly powerful and also blubbery creatures in

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Speaker 2: a way that is it's astounding, and nose I hope

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Speaker 2: was proud of his theft anyway, So he he worked

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Speaker 2: as a troop for a little bit, and they sort

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Speaker 2: of transitioned him into just research studies because obviously, like

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Speaker 2: bluego whales are really hard to study in the wild,

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Speaker 2: and so a lot of our knowledge comes from captive whales.

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Speaker 2: They sent him on a couple of missions like how

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Speaker 2: deep can you die? And they like put a little

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Speaker 2: tag on him. None of the studies around him were

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Speaker 2: super consequential, except for this one paper that came out

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Speaker 2: long after his death. Wait, Nosey's dead unfortunately. Nosey did

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Speaker 2: die unfortunately of meningitis in nineteen ninety nine. I think

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Speaker 2: nose was twenty three, and in the wild bluega whales

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Speaker 2: lived to like fifty sixty seventy years old. But Nosey

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Speaker 2: kind of became famous after his death because there was

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Speaker 2: a paper that came out in this journal Current Biology

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Speaker 2: in twenty twelve where the researchers who worked with him

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Speaker 2: published a series of vocalizations that he had made while

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Speaker 2: he was in a tank. And the vocalizations, the researchers realized,

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Speaker 2: sounded like Nosey was trying to talk like a person.

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Speaker 2: They did not sound like any other bluega whale vocalization

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Speaker 2: and sort of mimicked like the pitch and rhythm of

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Speaker 2: human voices to the extent that like he was in

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Speaker 2: his tank kind of swimming around and there was a

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Speaker 2: diver in with him, and the diver heard someone say

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Speaker 2: get out of the tank, and so he like surfaced,

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Speaker 2: but there was no person around. It was just him

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Speaker 2: and no sy.

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Speaker 1: Wait, you're saying that the bluega whale said in English,

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Speaker 1: get out of the tank.

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Speaker 2: I think he just sort of the way that he

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Speaker 2: was mimicking human voice, like it just sounded human.

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Speaker 1: We actually have audio of Nosy talking, which you published

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Speaker 1: in your piece. Do you want to listen to it

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Speaker 1: with me and we could determine how human we think

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Speaker 1: it sounds.

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Speaker 2: I would love that.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of kazoo going on, for sure.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean it makes me think of like, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, like a hot dog marker at like a

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Speaker 2: sports game of someone you know, trying to speak above

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Speaker 2: the noise of being like Horrah, good dog here, good

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Speaker 2: hot dogs.

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Speaker 1: That is what it sounds like. But it also sounds

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Speaker 1: like a little bit of making fun of humans.

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Speaker 2: Yes it does. So that's not what beluga whales normally

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Speaker 2: sound like. But that is what no C sounded like

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Speaker 2: when he was doing his human voice. But it's it's wild.

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Speaker 2: They're very good mimics.

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Speaker 1: Wow, So you think no C is either imitating or

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Speaker 1: mocking or both the humans that know C's dealing with.

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Speaker 2: So it seemed clear that NOC was trying to mimic

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Speaker 2: a human. He lived in a tank with a couple

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Speaker 2: of other dolphins and other beluga whales, but he never

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Speaker 2: made these sounds when it was just them. He only

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Speaker 2: made these sounds like when there were people present, but

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Speaker 2: they don't know, like why NOC was trying to do this,

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Speaker 2: if you know he was trying to build connection or

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Speaker 2: make fun of us or communicate with us like that, again,

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Speaker 2: is just kind of unknowable. But it was just this

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Speaker 2: wild period of his life where he did his human voice.

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Speaker 2: He did it for about seven years and then he

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Speaker 2: I think became sexually mature and stopped making the human voice.

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Speaker 1: That's what guys do.

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Speaker 2: He had other things to think about.

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Speaker 1: Boys basically stopped talking at puberty. Why do you think

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Speaker 1: NOC was doing this? Because this is the central question,

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Speaker 1: Like what was he thinking? So he's speaking in human like,

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Speaker 1: what do you think was going on his head at

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Speaker 1: that moment?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's just a very different life, and

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Speaker 2: we can guess and speculate, like maybe he was lonely,

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Speaker 2: Like maybe he was seeking some kind of connection, Like

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Speaker 2: probably he was bored, you know, just to live in

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Speaker 2: a small enclosure for his whole life, and like I

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Speaker 2: can't help but speculate that he was looking for something

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Speaker 2: to do. But again, that's just what I think.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Ugh, So how did you feel when you found

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Speaker 1: out that this blueg of whale that you've been tracking

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Speaker 1: and thinking about has been dead all this time.

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Speaker 2: It was incredibly depressing. I was I was sad, I

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Speaker 2: was bummed, and I was also frustrated by the idea that,

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Speaker 2: like most of what we know about this whale is

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Speaker 2: him trying to mimic us, and it is absolutely like

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Speaker 2: an innovation of sorts that he was able to do that.

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Speaker 2: But it didn't really feel to me like I was

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Speaker 2: learning anything about the whale himself and the things that

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Speaker 2: he was interested in and like the things that he did.

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Speaker 2: But then I came across this paper that was published

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Speaker 2: after Noci died, when the researchers who worked with him

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Speaker 2: noticed No Sa and two other belugas like in their

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Speaker 2: oceanic enclosure in the San Diego Bay, right under the

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Speaker 2: light of like a floodlight on the dock. And when

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Speaker 2: you have light, a lot of plankton will come to

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Speaker 2: it in the ocean, and then the fish will come

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Speaker 2: to eat those plankton. So there was like this kind

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Speaker 2: of feeding frenzy that was happening between these schools of

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Speaker 2: anchobies feeding on plankton that were attracted to the light

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Speaker 2: and no Sea and this other beluga whale who was

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Speaker 2: also in this netted Enclosure eight, like the entire school

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Speaker 2: of Anchobies, like the Reason, which were like at the

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Speaker 2: end of the hour, there and no more Anchovy's left,

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Speaker 2: and they had just basically been eating Anchovi's for like

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Speaker 2: a full hour. And the researchers who were observing this

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Speaker 2: dropped a hydrophone which can record sounds in the ocean,

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Speaker 2: and they heard this distinctive noise basically like a high

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Speaker 2: pitched buzzing noise, which is also called a victory squeal,

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Speaker 2: and so it sounded almost like they were like celebrating,

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Speaker 2: And I think that was where I was, like, I

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Speaker 2: think I found this little glimpse into Nosey's life that

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Speaker 2: I wanted to have that wasn't related to the Navy

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Speaker 2: or to humans or to whatever, just like a moment

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Speaker 2: of perhaps joy. But again I can't say if it

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Speaker 2: was joy.

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Speaker 1: But if I know anything from reporting in Vegas, like

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Speaker 1: an hour after the All you Can Eat buffet, knows

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Speaker 1: he's not so happy.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Those are dark times. So this original question you asked,

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Speaker 1: what is this bluego whale thinking? Does it make you

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Speaker 1: sad that in the end you just don't know because

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Speaker 1: it kind of implies that we can't know what it's

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Speaker 1: like to be anyone else, not our spouses, not our children.

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Speaker 1: It's a really lonely conclusion that Nagel comes to in

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Speaker 1: his bad essay and that you come to in yours.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I really don't find it depressing or lonely at all,

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Speaker 2: Like I really, I think just reporting on creatures and

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Speaker 2: spending a lot of time with creatures who are so

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Speaker 2: strange and so different from me, Like, I find so

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Speaker 2: much beauty in that strangeness and that difference, and I

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Speaker 2: think there's something sacred about that space between us. But

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Speaker 2: I don't know, Like I think it would be overwhelming

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Speaker 2: to experience every creature's like experience on Earth, right, Like

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Speaker 2: they're a fish in the deep sea that like live

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Speaker 2: in temperatures close to freezing, and that's fine for them,

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Speaker 2: But it's like, I don't know, like I like to

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Speaker 2: learn about that, I don't need to. I don't need

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Speaker 2: to be there with them.

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Speaker 1: Are those creatures that are right on the thermal hot

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Speaker 1: springs deep under the water, which is basically like living

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Speaker 1: in the Earth's core.

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Speaker 2: Nor do I want that life, but I respect it,

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Speaker 2: and like I find it so incredible that there are

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Speaker 2: so many ways of living and being on this earth.

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Speaker 2: I'll never know what it's like to be able to

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Speaker 2: gu whale, but I'll also like never know what it's

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Speaker 2: like to be another person. And I don't know. I

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Speaker 2: guess I just I'm thinking about a lot of these things,

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Speaker 2: being like a trans journalist and sort of thinking about

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Speaker 2: objectivity and fighting for different modes of how that can exist.

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Speaker 2: And I'm happy that this is making people think both

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Speaker 2: about volugas but also about the experiences of people who

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Speaker 2: are different from them.

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Speaker 1: What do you think being trans like affects your desire

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Speaker 1: to look into how creatures think?

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Speaker 2: I mean, insects are like a great model right for

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Speaker 2: bodily change and metamorphosis. I wish that the medical institutions

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Speaker 2: that we have would make those changes like more accessible

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Speaker 2: to everyone. I guess I haven't really thought about, like

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Speaker 2: whether being trends specifically makes me interested in creatures, but

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Speaker 2: I think I am interested in the ways that people

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Speaker 2: sort of are quick to call certain organisms like strange

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Speaker 2: or weird or bizarre, and use that same language to

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Speaker 2: describe different groups of people.

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Speaker 1: Sabrina Imbler, thank you so much for answering all my

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Speaker 1: questions as dumb as they were about Beiligo whales and

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Speaker 1: Melania Trump. And for writing these awesome stories that everyone

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Speaker 1: should read.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me Joel. And if

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Speaker 2: I've learned anything from this story, it's the fact that

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Speaker 2: no questions are dumb questions.

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Speaker 1: Occasionally and just for a moment, I will stop talking.

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Speaker 1: This apparently concerns my lovely wife Cassandra so much that

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Speaker 1: as soon as it happens, she often asked me, what

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Speaker 1: are you thinking about? Oh, this is a horrible question.

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Speaker 1: It feels more invasive than asking someone what kind of

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Speaker 1: porn they watch. We can only exist in a society

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Speaker 1: if we're all ignorant about what each other is thinking,

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Speaker 1: or worse, how little they think about us. So let

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Speaker 1: me be the first podcast host in history to ask

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Speaker 1: you not to post reviews of this show on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Keep it to yourself. But you can still give us

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Speaker 1: five stars. It really helps.

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Speaker 3: At the end of the show, what's next for Joel Stein?

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Speaker 3: Maybe you'll take a napper poker round online.

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Speaker 1: Our show is produced by Joey fish Ground, Mola Board

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Speaker 1: and Nishavenka. It was edited by Lydia Jenan Kopp. Our

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Speaker 1: engineer is Amanda kay Wang and our executive producer is

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Speaker 1: Catharine Cheradah. Our theme song was produced by Jonathan Coleman.

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Speaker 1: A special thanks to My Voice coach Vicky Merrick am

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00:22:48,824 --> 00:22:53,344
Speaker 1: I consulting producer Laurence Alasnik. To find more Pushkin podcasts,

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Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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00:22:57,784 --> 00:23:01,584
Speaker 1: listen to your podcasts. I'm Joel Stein, and this is

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Speaker 1: story of the Week.

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Speaker 2: So many creatures rely on the stars to navigate, Like

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Speaker 2: I just published a story about dung beetles. And dung beetles,

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Speaker 2: there's one species that is nocturnal and they use the

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Speaker 2: Milky Way to navigate where to roll their dung to.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that amazing? Like not true, it's incredible.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing about being a creature's reporter. You can

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Speaker 1: make up anything. Beetles use the milky Way to bury

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Speaker 1: their dung. Like you just make stuff up. No one

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Speaker 1: knows