1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and it is Saturday. That means 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 2: it is time to go into the vault for an 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 2: older episode of the show. This one originally published August second, 6 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, and it is part one of our 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 2: series on whistling, a surprisingly interesting subject. 8 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: All right, let's dive right in. 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 10 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 11 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: name is Robert. 12 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 2: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and today we're going to 13 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: be kicking off a multi part series about whistling. This 14 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 2: is one of those topics I hope in classic Stuff 15 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 2: to Blow Your Mind fashion, we will be able to 16 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 2: really surprise you how much weird and interesting stuff there 17 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 2: is to learn about whistling around the world. 18 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: That's right, I mean, we will make it weird. We 19 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: will know ard in episode one, so strap in. 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,199 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, one of the first things that I wanted 21 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 2: to talk about, and I think this is something we'll 22 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 2: have to revisit in multiple parts of the series, is 23 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 2: the idea of whistled languages much to my surprise after 24 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 2: reading about the subject, there are multiple examples from around 25 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 2: the globe of whistled languages, or at least whistled alternate 26 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 2: versions of an existing spoken language. And so to kick 27 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 2: us off, I wanted to talk about one particular example 28 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 2: of a whistled language. I was reading about this in 29 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 2: a classic linguistics paper from nineteen forty eight by George M. 30 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 2: Cowen called Masteco Whistle Speech. This was published in the 31 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 2: journal Language in nineteen forty eight. It's by this scholar 32 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: named George M. Cowen who lived nineteen sixteen through twenty seventeen. 33 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 2: He was an expert linguistics. He was associated with the 34 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 2: Summer Institute of Linguistics, and apparently this paper is one 35 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: of his most important contributions to the field. So it's 36 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 2: an article documenting this fascinating type of communication practiced by 37 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 2: the Mazatec people living in Wahaca, Mexico. So what we're 38 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 2: talking about here is an alternate form of the Mazteko 39 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 2: language that is based entirely on whistles. Cowen writes that 40 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 2: as of the nineteen forty Mexican census, there were approximately 41 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 2: sixty thousand people in the Mazatec tribe, and almost fifty 42 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 2: six thousand of them were monolingual speakers of the Mezateecan languages. 43 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 2: The Maztecan languages are part of what Kawen here calls 44 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: the Popo Loca Mezteko language family, so part of a 45 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 2: broader association of languages found in this area. So Cowen 46 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 2: spent several winters in the nineteen forties living among speakers 47 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: of the Meztecan languge, which is to document these languages 48 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 2: and eventually the whistle speech. And I want to begin 49 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 2: by reading an anecdote that he just observed during his 50 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 2: time there. Quote Usabio Martinez was observed one day standing 51 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 2: in front of his hut whistling to a man a 52 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 2: considerable distance away. The man was passing on the trail below, 53 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 2: going to market to sell a load of corn leaves, 54 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 2: which he was carrying. The man answered Ucabio's whistle with 55 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 2: a whistle. The interchange was repeated several times with different whistles. 56 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 2: Finally the man turned around, retraced his steps a short way, 57 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 2: and came up the footpath to Ucbo's hut. Without saying 58 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: a word. He dumped his load on the ground. Usebio 59 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: looked the load over, went into his hut, returned with 60 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,119 Speaker 2: some money, and paid the man his price. The man 61 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 2: turned and left. Not a word had been spoken. They 62 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 2: had talked, bargained over the price, and come to an 63 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: agreement satisfactory to both parties, using only whistles as a 64 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: medium of communication, and this is not an isolated incident. 65 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: The author here writes that the Mazateec people frequently hold 66 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: entire conversations and express an extremely broad and versatile set 67 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 2: of ideas, all using whistles. As he puts it, quote, 68 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 2: the Masteco is frequently converse by whistling to one another. 69 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 2: The whistles are not merely signals with limited semantic value, 70 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 2: arrived at by common agreement, but are parallel to spoken 71 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 2: conversations as a means of communication. And so to try 72 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 2: to elucidate that a little bit, what this means is 73 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 2: that the whistle speech is not a code like you 74 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 2: may have heard, you may have seen in movies, I 75 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 2: don't know, like soldiers crawling around and they sort of 76 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 2: like whistle codes at each other, and you get the 77 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 2: idea that maybe they've agreed on a handful of whistled 78 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 2: signals in advance, like you know that one whistle means 79 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 2: a stop, another one means go forward. But there's probably 80 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 2: a very limited array of those whistles, and you had 81 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: to work on agreeing to them beforehand. 82 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: Right, right. Also in contrast to how the sort of 83 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: every day in our world you will encounter, you know, 84 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: a handful of uses of whistles that have sort of 85 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: agreed upon meaning sort of a whistle that is an 86 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: attention graber, a whistle that might be a little more scandalous, 87 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: and then a whistle that is it seems to say 88 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: say whoa, like that's a big truck something of that nature. 89 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: But it's not really, it's nothing at all like a 90 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: robust language of whistles. It's just a few basic whistle 91 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,559 Speaker 1: signals that seem to be commonly used. 92 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, I would say, Like in the standard 93 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: American English speaking context, there are a few sort of 94 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 2: significant whistles. You basically know what they mean when you 95 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 2: hear them, but there's only a handful of them, and 96 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 2: you certainly can't make sentences out of them, right. Exactly 97 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: the opposite is true of the mesatago whistle speech. This 98 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 2: is a full equivalent to the stand and spoken Mesteko language. 99 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 2: The whistles can be recorded and translated by anybody familiar 100 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 2: with the whistle speech, producing the same specific translations with 101 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 2: a couple of certain kinds of ambiguities. I'll get into 102 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: that later. So it's not a kind of loose suggestive code. 103 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,799 Speaker 2: It's not something that has to be agreed on ahead 104 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 2: of time. It's just an equivalent of a spoken language 105 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 2: with all the freedom of degrees of expression and lexical 106 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 2: richness found in the spoken language. And I thought this 107 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: was just amazing, So I guess I want to explore 108 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 2: a few more things. The Cowan documents that he observed 109 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 2: about the whistle speech during his time in Wahaka in 110 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: the nineteen forties. So he says also that the Mezteko 111 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 2: people use the whistle signals when communicating with animals. For example, 112 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 2: there's a sort of slow upgliding whistle to keep burrows 113 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 2: moving when on the trail, or whistles to call out 114 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 2: to dogs. But these whistles don't have a translatable language equivalent. 115 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 2: So there is whistling that is language. But then there's 116 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: also a whole set of like whistle sounds that are 117 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 2: useful day to day, but are not words. 118 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. They just if they were to be translated, they'd 119 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: be like. 120 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: Hey, yeah, or keep walking, keep going another thing. Not 121 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 2: everybody whistles, and not everybody who whistles whistles the same amount. 122 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 2: Cowan writes that while everyone seems to have listening fluency 123 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 2: with the whistled speech, generally only men whistle, and especially 124 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 2: men between the ages of boyhood and middle age. So 125 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: he says old men rarely whistle conversationally. It seems to 126 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: fade out over the lifespan, and women and girls understand 127 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 2: what is whistled by the men and boys, but usually 128 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 2: do not whistle themselves. So he talks about observing a 129 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: bunch of interactions where like a boy would whistle something 130 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 2: to a girl his age, and the girl would reply 131 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 2: with spoken language, so she understands the whistles, but she 132 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: doesn't use them herself. He even talks about one specific 133 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 2: example of like a boy teasing a girl and he 134 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: didn't realize what was happening because he just observed the 135 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 2: boy whistling. He didn't realize it was speech, and suddenly 136 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 2: the girl lashed out and hit the boy with the 137 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: broom Because of what he'd been saying to her, except 138 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: he hadn't been using the spoken language. 139 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: Interesting, Okay, so with the former we have perhaps a 140 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: physical reason for the limit, but possibly cultural, and then 141 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: the second one seems to be definitely cultural. 142 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if there's like a biological limitation 143 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 2: on older men whistling either. I mean, it seems like 144 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 2: this is probably all cultural convention. 145 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think with older men, based on what I've 146 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: been reading, it would be it would be kind of 147 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: a case to case situation. You certainly have older gentlemen 148 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: who are profound whistlers, but there are there are certainly 149 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: cases even in younger people where if there changes to 150 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: one's mouth due to injury, due to just changes in 151 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: dental health, then that could impact one's ability to whistle. 152 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: Well, So a big question here would be why. I mean, 153 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 2: this is an interesting and beautiful thing about this language 154 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 2: that it has the you know, the spoken language and 155 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 2: then it's whistled twin, But like, what would cause a 156 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 2: whistled version of a language to develop like this? And 157 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: I think one good way to get some insight into 158 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: that is to look at what are the common occasions 159 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 2: for people to use the whistled version of their language 160 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 2: instead of the spoken version, and one of the big 161 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: answers here is pretty clear. The author here says that 162 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 2: the most frequent use of the whistle speech was observed 163 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 2: when the speakers were at a distance from each other. 164 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 2: He writes quote, Men scattered widely over a mountainside, each 165 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 2: working in his own plot of ground, will often talk 166 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 2: to one another with whistles. Travelers on the trails will 167 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 2: keep in touch with one another by whistling, though separated 168 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: by considerable distance. When wishing to call or get the 169 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 2: attention of someone, even though he be within easy speaking distance, 170 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:10,119 Speaker 2: the mastacos will often whistle his name. The village shoemaker 171 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 2: often calls passers by into his shop with a whistle 172 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 2: to chat with him while he works. A man may 173 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 2: come to a friend's hut on a visit. While approaching, 174 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 2: or when he has actually arrived at the door of 175 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 2: the hut, he will frequently whistle rather than call his 176 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: friend's name. If the friend is home, he may respond 177 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: from within with a whistle, then come out to greet 178 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 2: his visitor, or he may remain inside and whistle to 179 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: his visitor to come in. Fascinating Okay, so communicating at 180 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 2: a distance seems to be a big one, or also 181 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 2: initiating communication at the start of an encounter, which I 182 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: think is interesting that even when we're not at a distance, 183 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 2: we often use language that we employ at a distance, 184 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 2: like to get some in a spoken language, to get 185 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 2: somebody's attention from far away, what do you do? You 186 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 2: yell hey at them? But also what do you do 187 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 2: when you walk up and see somebody you know, you're 188 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 2: two feet away from them? You say, oh hey? 189 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: And there might be some sort of a wave or 190 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: something in there as well, And I could I can imagine, 191 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is sure, I can imagine 192 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: where if whistling could maybe take the place of some 193 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: of the otherwise necessary waving or gesticulating that would be 194 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: required to sort of get somebody's attention and say, hey, here, 195 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,479 Speaker 1: I am, there you are, let's. 196 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 2: Converse, right. So okay, So you got communicating at a distance, 197 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 2: You've got initiating communication at the start of a meeting. 198 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 2: And then along the same lines, he writes here that 199 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 2: the whistle is sometimes used as a warning, such as 200 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 2: when someone unknown is seen approaching on the trail, you 201 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 2: kind of whistle to let all of your friends nearby 202 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 2: know that something's up, you know, to get their attention. 203 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 2: Though again he says the most common occation is talking 204 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 2: at a distance, and he writes that in these cases, 205 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 2: men working in the field seem to be able to 206 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 2: communicate easily with people a full quarter of a mile away, 207 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 2: like on the opposite mountain side, using the whistle speech. 208 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: But also, and I found this next part really interesting. 209 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 2: Count says that sometimes, especially boys will hold a whistle 210 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: conversation if they're trying to talk while older people are 211 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 2: also nearby carrying on a spoken conversation or even singing together. 212 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 2: And he calls these sort of simultaneous whistled conversations subdued 213 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: whistles and says that they're quite audible, and yet they 214 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: are able to happen simultaneously without seeming to much interfere 215 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 2: with the spoken conversation of the adults. And I don't 216 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 2: know that one seems really interesting to me. I mean, 217 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 2: it reminds me of of being a kid and wanting 218 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 2: to talk to other kids while I don't know, while 219 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 2: you're in class or something, when you're not supposed to 220 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 2: be doing that, and there's just an obvious sort of 221 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 2: clash between two sets of spoken words going on at 222 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 2: the same time, and this gets the ire of the adults, 223 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,839 Speaker 2: not only because you're not paying attention, but because you're 224 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: distracting others. Yet somehow I could imagine that, Yeah, maybe 225 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 2: having like a different form of the language. If you're 226 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 2: speaking your language based on whistles instead of the normal 227 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: of phonetic syllables, that could allow a kind of simultaneity 228 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 2: without so much conflict. 229 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, a way to speak while the adults are speaking, 230 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: without interfering with what they're doing. Now, the example of 231 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: using the whistles to communicate, say, in the case of 232 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: a path, you're in the woods, someone's coming. That reminds 233 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: me that And I'm making an assumption here, but if 234 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: one were to say, Hey, Carl, there's somebody coming and 235 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: call out, well, not only are you communicating to Carl, 236 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: but you're communicating something about yourself. I wonder if whistling 237 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: language in specific scenarios like this allow you to communicate 238 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: without tipping your hand at all, regarding like who you are, 239 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: like what your age is, what your gender is, etc. 240 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 2: Oh huh, I didn't think about that. That's interesting. Well, 241 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: another thing I would say along those same lines. Is again, 242 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 2: I haven't done experiments to confirm this, but I would 243 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 2: just say as a baseline, I might assume that whistling 244 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 2: can more easily blend in with nature than spoken language. That, 245 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 2: like you hear spoken language, you instantly know a person 246 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 2: is nearby, you hear a little whistle. I don't know 247 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: that could be a bird or something like that if 248 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 2: you're not tuned into it as a linguistic signal. 249 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: And I think that's where that's certainly where my assumption 250 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: comes into play, is that I'm not sure what it 251 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: would be like for someone who has lived in the 252 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: world of this kind of whistling. If you're used to it, 253 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: then maybe you just you've a heightened susceptibility to recognizing 254 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: it and telling the difference between it and the natural world. 255 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: And likewise, perhaps if you're used to it, you can 256 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: definitely tell the difference between a man's whistle and a 257 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: boy's whistle. 258 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 2: Well, So, to round out the things that the Cowan 259 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: talks about in this article, he says that there are 260 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 2: no lexical limitations on the whistle. Speech sort of already 261 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 2: got to this, but basically, anything you can express in 262 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 2: spoken language, you can express in the whistles. However, there 263 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 2: are some ambiguities caused by the whistle speech, and this 264 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 2: is because of the basic phonetic features of it. So 265 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 2: the Mestaken languages are tonal languages, and this would mean 266 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 2: they're similar to like Mandarin, where you can have a 267 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 2: syllable and you can have maybe four different versions of 268 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: that syllable, and in English they would all be the 269 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 2: same syllable to us, like maybe the classic example in 270 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 2: Mandarin is four different ways of saying ma, but pronounced 271 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 2: in each case with a different tone. So you would, 272 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 2: you know, if you're trying to write them out phonetically 273 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 2: in English, they would all be maa, but one might 274 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 2: be a kind of gliding up tone and one is 275 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: a falling tone and so forth. Well, the Mestaken languages 276 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 2: are like this too. They have tones in the speech, 277 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 2: and the tones are what eventually becomes the whistle speech. 278 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 2: The whistle speech is based on the tonal features of 279 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 2: the spoken language. But if you have, say two different 280 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 2: phrases that in the spoken language have the exact same 281 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 2: sequences of tones, these can of course cause ambiguity in 282 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 2: the whistle speech, and that has to be resolved, you 283 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 2: might have to say, wait, what do you mean. Cowan 284 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,479 Speaker 2: writes that one of the most common sources of ambiguity 285 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 2: in whistled speech is just proper names, because there are 286 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 2: a lot of proper names that have the same sequence 287 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 2: of tones. But despite this limitation that you know, you 288 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 2: don't have spoken syllables, you're just turning the language entirely 289 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 2: into sequences of tones. You can communicate a lot, and 290 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 2: most of the time people understand each other just fine. 291 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 2: Another thing I thought was interesting is that he says 292 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 2: there don't appear to be any limitations on whistled speech 293 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 2: mingling with spoken language. Like it's not like you go 294 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 2: into one mode and then you're supposed to stay there 295 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: and back and forth, and like he says that a 296 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 2: conversation might start at a distance as as whistles, and 297 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 2: then switch to normal speech when the parties get closer 298 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 2: to each other, or you might just go back and forth. 299 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 2: You might be speaking and then suddenly whistling, and then 300 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 2: and so forth. 301 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:22,959 Speaker 1: Interesting this this is not a perfect comparison, but I 302 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: am I can't help but think of the astro mach 303 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 1: droids and star wars. You know how they speak with 304 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: the kind of whistling language, and and generally when they're 305 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: talking to somebody like Luke Skywalker or whoever, Luke understands 306 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: the astro Mach language and then speaks back in English 307 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: and or whatever we're calling English in the Star Wars universe. 308 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: And at times when I'm watching this, I'm always I'll 309 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: stop and I'll think, and I'll of course i'm you know, 310 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: caught up in the flow of it, so it ultimately 311 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. But if I'm over analyzing it, I'm thinking 312 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: about the fact that they're they're speaking in two different 313 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: languages to each other, and there doesn't seem to be 314 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: any problem. But an example like this from the real 315 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: world makes me think, well, no, this is entirely believable. 316 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: You have both parties know the language, but the Astromac 317 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: of course can only speak one of those languages, and 318 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: Luke Skywalker can also only speak one of those languages, 319 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: but both can understand. 320 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting. I have often thought about that too, 321 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 2: about the how exactly the R two D two communication 322 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 2: goes on a bolt. But I just wanted to say 323 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 2: also that, like this isn't something of the past that 324 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 2: the mesateko whistle speech is still in use today, certainly 325 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 2: by people in Wahaka and maybe elsewhere as well. If 326 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 2: you want to hear what it sounds like, I would 327 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 2: highly recommend looking up videos. There are videos you can 328 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 2: find online of native speakers demonstrating the Mesateko whistle speech, 329 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 2: and it's totally worth looking up. 330 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, it's quite beautiful. 331 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 2: But as I alluded to earlier, this is not the 332 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 2: only case in the world. This is just one example 333 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 2: I picked. There are other examples and I might get 334 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 2: into them in part two of this series of whistled 335 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 2: languages popping up, especially it seems in mountainous and forested 336 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: regions around the world, And there is a paper I 337 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 2: want to talk about in the next part of the 338 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 2: series about what are some of the common features that 339 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:21,239 Speaker 2: may cause whistled versions of languages to arise. It's very 340 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 2: interesting to think about what are the pressures and environmental 341 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 2: characteristics that tend to give rise to certain characteristics of language. 342 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: Absolutely now in discussing whistling here. When we first started 343 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: looking into this topic, I was thinking, well, what is whistling? 344 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: And at first I was thinking, well, this has to 345 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: be one of those questions that shouldn't be too complicated, right, 346 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: in part because for many of us, a whistle is 347 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: literally as close as our own breath. We can produce 348 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: a whistle without giving it too much thought, and we 349 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: can generally pick out the sound of whistling rather eas 350 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: maybe not as quickly as we were discussing in our 351 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: previous example compared to other things. But hear it for 352 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: a second and you'll say, yeah, yeah, somebody's whistling, and 353 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: then maybe you can pick out the tune. But yeah, 354 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: we know it when we hear it, and we know 355 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: it when we produce it. So I honestly expected to 356 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: kind of springboard pass the basic what is a whistle 357 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 1: question here, and so can get more into some of 358 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: the media stuff. But then I read this definition of 359 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: whistling from the paper the Physiology of Oral Whistling by A. 360 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 1: Zola at All, published in the Journal of Applied Physiology 361 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen. Quote. Experimental models support the hypothesis that 362 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: the sound in human whistling is generated by a Helmholtz resonator, 363 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: suggesting that the oral cavity acts as a resonant chamber 364 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: bounded by two orifices, posteriorly by raising the tongue to 365 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: the hard palate and anteriorly by pursed lips. So I 366 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 1: don't know about you, but when I heard that that 367 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 1: instantly it made me realize, Okay, it's a little more 368 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: complicated than I had perhaps realized at first. And I 369 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 1: don't think I had actually heard of a Helmholtz resonator before, 370 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: and when I heard that, I instantly thought of like 371 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: the Holtzman effect in Dune. But this has nothing to 372 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: do with personal shields and suspensers. 373 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I think that's interesting too, that it's like 374 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 2: not a fully settled question how exactly the physics of 375 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 2: whistling work. But I do think it's clear and you 376 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 2: can sort of test this in your own body. That 377 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 2: part of what's happening with whistling is you are relocating 378 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 2: the primary resonating chamber that's producing the vibrations the sound 379 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 2: when you whistle, as opposed to when you produce regular speech. 380 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 2: Because if you just feel it in your body while 381 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 2: you're talking, you can kind of feel least I can 382 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: that the vibrations sort of seem to be coming from 383 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 2: the throat. It's also sort of happening in the mouth 384 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 2: a little bit. But then when you whistle. At least, 385 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 2: what I feel is I feel the vibration beginning in 386 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: my mouth. 387 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would certainly advise everyone as you're whistling, you 388 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: may be whistling right now, to sort of test this out, like, 389 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: really focus in on how it feels, Focus on how 390 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: you feel the air flowing through your mouth. You'll find 391 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 1: these lateral air passages between cheek and molars, and it's 392 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: really quite quite fascinating, because again, it's easy to just 393 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: take this for granted, it's not something for most of us. 394 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: Is certainly after a point, you don't really have to 395 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: think about it. You don't have to have to look 396 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: up and read instructions for how to do it. You 397 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: just your mouth assumes the form necessary to create the whistle, 398 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: and you whistle. 399 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 2: As a total sidetrack. I'm sorry, but I found the 400 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 2: title of that paper, The Physiology of Oral Whistling, very 401 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 2: funny because it immediately made me think, are there other 402 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 2: types of whistle? Is there ocular whistling? 403 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I guess there may be some sort 404 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: of nasal variety. I mean, I'm instantly reminded of the 405 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: various nasal flutes that exist in different cultures. So the 406 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: airflow from the mouth is not the only way that 407 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: we have to produce sound. But yeah, when you say whistling, 408 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: you tend to think oral whistling. Now, I want to 409 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: come back to the Helmholtz resonator here. So this is 410 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: named for important German physicist and physician Hermann von Helmholtz, 411 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: who lived eighteen twenty one through eighteen ninety four. If 412 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: you're studying anything about sound and sound generation, you'll generally 413 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: find out find something about von Helmholtz. For instance, after 414 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,360 Speaker 1: we had started this particular topic, I was in Asheville, 415 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: North Carolina, and I went to the Moge Museum there, 416 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: the synthesizer Museum, and Helmholtz's name comes up in some 417 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: of the materials there because it's just it's hard to 418 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: avoid him when you get into the science of sound. 419 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: So the Helmholtz resonator is a kind of spherical chamber 420 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: with an aperture at the top or at one end 421 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 1: called the nipple and tapering there for insertion into the ear, 422 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: and then has another larger aperture on the other end 423 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: of this sphere. So each Helmholtz resonator has a known 424 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: fixed volume size and therefore is made to pick up 425 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: on a particular tone. There's no mechanical parts in this. 426 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: It's essentially it's kind of like a very finely engineered 427 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: seashell pick one up. You place the nipple in your ear, 428 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: and you can pick out a particular frequency, and you 429 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: generally will have a selection of these to analyze complex sounds. Joe, 430 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: for your benefit, I included a photo here of various 431 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: Helmholtz resonators, and if you do a Google search out 432 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: there of Helmholtz resonators, you'll see selections like this. They're 433 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: often made out of some sort of a metal. You know. 434 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 2: I think of myself as an adventurous seeker of experiences. 435 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 2: But somehow I don't want to put the big ones 436 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 2: of these in my ear. That's just I would fear 437 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 2: oral injury. 438 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: Well, the nipple is the same size on all of them, 439 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: nipple that is inserted into your ear. 440 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 2: I guess I'm just I guess what I mean is 441 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 2: I'm afraid it looks like it would suddenly produce an 442 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 2: incredibly loud sound. But I guess the size of the 443 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 2: resonator cavity is not actually about the volume, but about 444 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 2: the pitch. 445 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: So these resonators they have various applications in engineering, architecture, 446 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: and music. But when it comes to studying and describing 447 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: the mechanisms of human whistling, something that the aforementioned authors 448 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: say isn't done enough and again is not maybe fully understood. 449 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: The Helmholtz resonator is apparently a good model of what 450 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: seems to be going on inside of our head, inside 451 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: of our you know, our head and face when we whistle. 452 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: And Joe I included an illustration from that paper that 453 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: I thought was very useful. This kind of takes the airflow, 454 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: those lateral air passages who are describing, as well as 455 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: the central resonance chamber, and illustrates those inside of this 456 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: drawling of a human female who is supposedly whistling, and 457 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: it makes whistling look like some sort of strange organ 458 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: inside the mouth. 459 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 2: Uh yeah, it looks like, well, you got your regular 460 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 2: liver down below, and then you've got your whistling liver, 461 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 2: and that's up somewhere underneath the nose. 462 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: Right now, going back to that paper by Azola at all, 463 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: I want to read this quick quote that sums a 464 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: lot of this up quote. The results of this study 465 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: indicate that the acoustic mechanism in human person lip whistling 466 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: follows a Helmholtz resonator model. The oral cavity acts as 467 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: the resonant chamber and the anterior posterior movements of the 468 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 1: tongue play a major role in changing the volume and 469 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 1: thus the whistle frequency produced For their studies, performed with 470 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: high resolution measurements may help elucidate the contribution of changes 471 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: to other parameters of the Helmholtz equation. 472 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 2: Okay, so this is sort of in line with what 473 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,479 Speaker 2: I was at least guessing based on the feelings inside 474 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 2: my head. When I whistle, it feels like the vibrations 475 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 2: are coming from the mouth when I whistle, and hear 476 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 2: they're saying that, yes, when you whistle, the oral cavity 477 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 2: is what's acting as the resonant chamber. It's sort of 478 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 2: acting as a Helmholtz resonator. 479 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: Right, And it is stressing though that, Yeah, there's a 480 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: lot going on here and even though it may feel 481 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: pretty natural for most of us to whistle, we don't 482 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: have to again put a lot of thought into it, 483 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: though if you may be overthinking it now and find 484 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: yourself having to think more about doing it, but you 485 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: still have to have the proper prerequisites in place. Some 486 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: people lack the ability to whistle for a few different reasons. 487 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: It's also something that does have to be initially learned 488 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: and can get really good with practice. So it's like 489 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: it's one of those scenarios like when you hear somebody 490 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 1: do it really well, it has an almost otherworldly beauty 491 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: to it. Some of those examples earlier in the whistling 492 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: speech definitely have this quality to them. But also I 493 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: think of whistling used in music sometimes I think of 494 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 1: the whistling of say, Leon Redbone whistle during some of performance. 495 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 1: So an amazing whistler. My whistle is nothing like that, 496 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 1: and a large part of that just may simply be practiced. 497 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: I have not applied the hours of whistling that Leon 498 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: Redbone applied during his lifetime to achieve that level of art. 499 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,360 Speaker 2: So off, Mike, we were talking about our favorite examples 500 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 2: of music that features whistling. One example that immediately comes 501 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 2: to my mind is there's a great Bolivian folk song 502 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: called Jorando se Foe and the band, the experimental rock 503 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 2: band Sun City Girls do a cover of that song. 504 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 2: I think their cover is called the Shining Path and 505 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 2: there's a part usually before the lyrics come in that 506 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 2: I think on earlier recordings of this song is done 507 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 2: on a flute, but they whistle this part, and the 508 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 2: whistling is just intense. It sounds very much the comparison 509 00:28:58,560 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 2: a lot of people seem to make. I think Seth 510 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 2: said the same thing when we played it for him earlier, 511 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 2: is that it feels like Anyomricone. It feels like kind 512 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 2: of a very dramatic, dangerous Western scene. 513 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, there's something about the West cinematically that 514 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: makes me think of whistling, And a big part of 515 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: it is, you know, probably Morricone's scores, but also the 516 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: score by Carter Burwell for a Raising Arizona, the Coen 517 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: Brothers film, So good, fabulous score that includes a lot 518 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: of like yodeling and banjo, but also whistling, really powerful, 519 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: like pure whistling that sounds like it's from just straight 520 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: from heaven. 521 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 2: But the other one Seth reminded reminded me of was 522 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 2: the Peter Bjorn and John song that was popular. I 523 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 2: think that was like really big my last year in college. 524 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 2: It was like two thousand and eight or so. 525 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that's a great example Another one that I 526 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: think Seth and I both thought of at the same 527 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: time was Otis Redding sitting on the dock of the bay. 528 00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: That is a wonderful whistling part in it. 529 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 2: I was trying to think, based on all these examples 530 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 2: we just brought up, whether there are sort of common 531 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 2: connotations to whistling and music. But I guess not really, 532 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 2: because in some of these examples we've talked about, the 533 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 2: whistling feels very, very happy and languid. It's a relaxed 534 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 2: kind of sound. I think of sitting on the dock 535 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 2: of the bay, whereas in the first example I mentioned, 536 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 2: it's it's a fiery, intense, you know, a danger rising 537 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 2: from from the canyon kind of sound. 538 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I'm glancing at a list right now, and oh, 539 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: this is a big one. Winds of Change by the Scorpions. 540 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: That's some powerful whistling in there. Feel it, Feel it 541 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: in your bones. Golden Years by David Bowie. That's another 542 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: good one. MM Games Without Frontiers by Peter Gabriel. 543 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 2: Oh I know that one. 544 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: Yep, yep, that's a great one. 545 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 2: War Without Tears. 546 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they are a bunch of them, and I'm 547 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: not going to go through this whole list, but I'd 548 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: love to hear from folks out there if you have 549 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: particularly favored examples of songs with whistling in them, or 550 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: favorite whistling performers. Oh here's another great one. I Always 551 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: look on the bright Side of Life from Monty Python's 552 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: The Life of Brian m hm. Great stuff. There's walk 553 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: like in Egyptian by the Bengals. 554 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 2: I did not remember the whistling in that. 555 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, don't worry, be happy. Bobby McFerrin, there you go. 556 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: Ooh. 557 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: I don't know if I remember the I remember this song, 558 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: but I don't remember the whistling. Me and Julio down 559 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: by the schoolyard. 560 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 2: Paul Simon, Oh yeah, yeah, okay, I shouldn't do that 561 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 2: too much. 562 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: Love is a battlefield, Pat Benattar. 563 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 2: Great song. I don't remember the whistling, you know. Coming 564 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 2: back to the idea of whistled languages, part of me thinks, oh, man, 565 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 2: I it would be difficult for me living in a 566 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 2: culture like that, because I feel like I don't whistle 567 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 2: very well. But then again, I guess it's a it's 568 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 2: a skill that you develop with practice, like other language skills, 569 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 2: and that unless you have some kind of like anatomical 570 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 2: reason that's interfering with your ability to whistle it. Imagine 571 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 2: it's largely a function of how much you do it, 572 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 2: how much you practice it, and how much you learn 573 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 2: it at an early age. But yes, I am one 574 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: of those who I don't whistle great. 575 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, my whistling is It's okay for my own purposes, 576 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: but it is not a performance level whistle. So I 577 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: will catch myself occasionally whistling a particular tune. But I'm 578 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: also just as just as inclined to maybe sing a 579 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: little bit from a particular song, or to hum a 580 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: little bit, did to use those more or less in tandem. 581 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: But pure whistling. Yeah, I've never really applied myself to 582 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: it because I felt like my whistling, yeah, it's good 583 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: enough for me, not so much for anybody else I'm around. 584 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 2: I did get into a habit a while back of 585 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 2: when I would be singing a song and I would 586 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 2: start getting up to the high notes that I couldn't sing, 587 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 2: I would just switch to whistling them. 588 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. As we were researching this, I was, of course, 589 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: like a lot of you out there listening to the episode, 590 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: So I was a little. I was hyper conscious of 591 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: my own whistling, so I was trying it out, and 592 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: I decided, well, what if I tried to whistle better? 593 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: You know what if I sort of really concentrate on 594 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: it and try and see what happens when I change 595 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,959 Speaker 1: the shape of my mouth a little bit and I 596 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: was feeling I found that I was able to make 597 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: a stronger whistle, but it was also I felt it straining, 598 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: like muscles in my face and in my head, that 599 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: I maybe don't strain that much when I do my 600 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: default whistle. And then I was able to go back 601 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: to my default whistle and it felt more natural. So 602 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: I kind of took that as an indicators like, Okay, 603 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: this is kind of the gateway to better whistling if 604 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: I wanted to actually pursue this, probably, but I'm not 605 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: going to do that. 606 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 2: Oh well, this makes me think of how actually, to 607 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 2: some degree, the same thing is true about spoken language, 608 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 2: Like I find at least if I think too hard 609 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 2: about what my body is doing while I'm reducing words 610 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 2: with my mouth, suddenly they become a lot harder to produce, 611 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 2: Like if I'm thinking about my lungs and my larynx 612 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 2: and my mouth, the syllables become kind of strange. You 613 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 2: get that. Actually, I would say it's a feeling kind 614 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 2: of similar to semantic satiation, where when you say a 615 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 2: word too many times in a row, you start like 616 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 2: the words starts to feel strange and it loses its 617 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 2: association with the with the meaning that it signifies. 618 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: Yeah. In a way, it's kind of like if you're 619 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: riding a bicycle and you suddenly start thinking really hard 620 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: about how you were riding the bicycle, how this is 621 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: being in pained, and maybe don't do that. Maybe just 622 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: just just ride the bicycle, think about something else, because 623 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 1: everything's in motion, it's working. Just don't second guess it. 624 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,280 Speaker 1: But as we were saying, though, it's by second guessing 625 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 1: it that we are able to potentially improve it as well. 626 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 1: We can certainly fall into a habit of whistling a 627 00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: certain way, and there are conceivably ways to improve upon 628 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: that whistle. But you've got to want to do that 629 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: or have some reason to do that, And certainly communication 630 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: would be a big one. If you're engaging in some 631 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: sort of whistling communication with people, then there's going to 632 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 1: be sort of a whistling standard. I imagine you're going 633 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: to hear other people use it, and there is going 634 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:21,320 Speaker 1: to be a positive social pressure to improving your whistle 635 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: to match the whistles of those around you. 636 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 2: Right right, Well, maybe we need to call part one 637 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 2: of our Whistling series here, but we've got so much 638 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 2: more interesting stuff to talk about in subsequent parts. We're 639 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 2: going to talk about religious uses of whistling. We're going 640 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 2: to talk about whistling superstition, whistling psychology, whistling technology. That 641 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 2: there are a lot of monsters in this closet. 642 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: All right, well, join us for that when we come back, 643 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: and certainly go ahead and send in your messages regarding 644 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: your own experience with whistling. We would love to hear 645 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: from you. As a reminder. Stuff to Blow your minds 646 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: Core episodes published Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the Stuff to 647 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind podcast feed. On Wednesdays we do a 648 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: short form artifact or monster fact. On Monday it's a 649 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: listener mail, and on Fridays we do Weird House Cinema. 650 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: That's our time to set aside most serious concerns and 651 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: just talk about a weird film. If you want to 652 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: converse with other Stuff to Blow your Mind listeners, Well, 653 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,320 Speaker 1: there are a couple of places you can go on Facebook. 654 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: You can go to the discussion module and you can 655 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,479 Speaker 1: also go to the Discord. If you're a Discord user, 656 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 1: go to the discord email us and we'll send you 657 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: the link you need to join that. But there are 658 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: a lot of cool discussions going on there, and they're 659 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: doing a book club there. I need to mention that again, 660 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,720 Speaker 1: some of the listeners have decided to read Umberto Echoes 661 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: the name of the Rose, So if you're interested in that, 662 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: email us, get the link. We'll send you to the 663 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,399 Speaker 1: right place and you can join up with them. 664 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 665 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,399 Speaker 2: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 666 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 2: with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 667 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 2: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to 668 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 2: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff 669 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 2: to Blow your Mind dot com MHM. 670 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 671 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 3: more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 672 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.