WEBVTT - The Science of Motivation 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:33.196 Pushkin. So the problem with unrealistic goals is that we 0:00:33.236 --> 0:00:37.956 get discouraged. If we perceive that the goal is completely unrealistic, 0:00:38.036 --> 0:00:41.076 then we give up and we walk much less than 0:00:41.116 --> 0:00:45.796 if we set a more realistic but motivating goal. So 0:00:46.476 --> 0:00:48.956 the whisky is that will just say, ah, that's never 0:00:48.996 --> 0:00:51.516 going to happen, and therefore I should do absolutely nothing 0:00:51.556 --> 0:00:55.716 about it. Doctor Yellette Fishbach is a professor of behavioral 0:00:55.756 --> 0:00:59.036 science at the University of Chicago and it's the author 0:00:59.076 --> 0:01:02.676 of the best selling book Get It Done. Surprising Lessons 0:01:02.716 --> 0:01:06.516 from the Science of Motivation. She spent decades studying how 0:01:06.556 --> 0:01:08.556 we can get better at not only setting the right 0:01:08.596 --> 0:01:12.116 goals for our selves, but also sticking with them. One 0:01:12.116 --> 0:01:15.036 of her strategies is to think carefully about what we 0:01:15.076 --> 0:01:17.636 reward ourselves for when we're trying to reach a goal. 0:01:18.836 --> 0:01:22.156 Often we reward what is easy to measure. Okay, so 0:01:22.236 --> 0:01:25.316 we might reward ourselves for how many hours we set 0:01:25.396 --> 0:01:29.156 in front of our computer, but not really on whether 0:01:29.236 --> 0:01:34.316 we were productive, whether we did work that gets us somewhere. 0:01:34.916 --> 0:01:38.596 Maybe we were just answering emails and kind of killing time, 0:01:38.596 --> 0:01:42.356 but we did work for many hours. But really we 0:01:42.356 --> 0:01:47.356 should care more about the quality. On today's show, we 0:01:47.436 --> 0:01:50.196 learned about the science of motivation so that we can 0:01:50.236 --> 0:01:55.716 set smarter goals and actually reach them. I'm Maya Shankar 0:01:55.996 --> 0:01:58.596 and this is a slight change of plans, a show 0:01:58.636 --> 0:02:00.876 about who we are and who we become in the 0:02:00.956 --> 0:02:14.996 face of a big change. I've known Ielt since I 0:02:15.076 --> 0:02:17.556 was a post doc studying the science of decision making, 0:02:18.076 --> 0:02:20.596 and her research has had a big personal impact on me. 0:02:21.556 --> 0:02:23.516 I was eager to have her on the show because 0:02:23.556 --> 0:02:27.236 motivation is a key ingredient in successfully changing our lives, 0:02:27.916 --> 0:02:30.716 and her science based strategies can help us think differently 0:02:30.796 --> 0:02:33.076 about how we set goals and how we ought to 0:02:33.116 --> 0:02:36.876 pursue them. So let's start with the basics. How should 0:02:36.876 --> 0:02:40.676 we define our goals? You talk about traps that we 0:02:40.716 --> 0:02:43.196 can fall into when it comes to setting our goals, 0:02:43.676 --> 0:02:47.076 and one of those is when we unintentionally define our 0:02:47.076 --> 0:02:52.356 goals to feel more like chores than like aspirations. Yes it, 0:02:52.716 --> 0:02:55.396 chores are the things that we need to do so 0:02:55.436 --> 0:03:00.556 that we can achieve our goals, and often we define 0:03:00.596 --> 0:03:02.636 the goal in terms of the shore. So we might, 0:03:02.996 --> 0:03:06.476 for example, define our goal in terms of applying for 0:03:06.556 --> 0:03:09.876 a job instead of getting a job stead of having 0:03:09.876 --> 0:03:13.236 a career. Applying for a job for most people is 0:03:13.316 --> 0:03:17.716 no fun. Going on a date it gave for many people, 0:03:17.836 --> 0:03:21.556 that's not really fun. That's a joke, okay. The goal 0:03:21.636 --> 0:03:24.836 is to find someone. The goal is to start a relationship, 0:03:25.796 --> 0:03:28.756 and so defining that the goal on the level that 0:03:28.956 --> 0:03:33.076 is exciting, that identifies what you want to achieve, is important. 0:03:33.956 --> 0:03:37.036 Don't make it too obstruct A goal that doesn't have 0:03:37.076 --> 0:03:39.556 any action that is connected to it gave. If someone 0:03:39.556 --> 0:03:42.276 says my goal is to be happy and they cannot 0:03:42.396 --> 0:03:45.396 name the actions that will make them happy, then this 0:03:45.516 --> 0:03:48.956 is not useful either. But there is this like sweet 0:03:49.036 --> 0:03:53.316 spot between something that is exciting that defines where you 0:03:53.516 --> 0:03:57.676 want to be, not necessarily what you need to do 0:03:57.756 --> 0:04:00.436 in order to get there, but it's nevertheless connected to 0:04:00.996 --> 0:04:05.716 these actions. And whereas that sweet spot exactly, it depends 0:04:05.756 --> 0:04:08.156 on many factors. But there are two different types of 0:04:08.236 --> 0:04:10.956 questions you can ask yourself that will pull you in 0:04:10.956 --> 0:04:15.116 different directions and help you find that balance why questions 0:04:15.356 --> 0:04:20.396 and how questions. So to get yourself to think more 0:04:20.436 --> 0:04:25.476 abstractly about your goals, you need to ask many why questions, 0:04:25.916 --> 0:04:32.756 like I want to sign up for JIM membership. Why Okay, 0:04:32.756 --> 0:04:38.236 because I want to start running? Why because I want 0:04:38.276 --> 0:04:42.196 to be healthier? And so on, And every why question 0:04:43.156 --> 0:04:46.556 makes you a bit more abstruct. Now stop with the 0:04:46.636 --> 0:04:50.476 why on the level where it's no longer really connected 0:04:50.476 --> 0:04:53.476 to action. Okay. So when you ask people why and 0:04:53.516 --> 0:04:57.196 why and why, eventually they give you something very because 0:04:57.196 --> 0:05:01.316 I exist, Yeah, exactly, exactly, because I must still the 0:05:01.356 --> 0:05:05.036 time that I have on this earth. Yes, and that's 0:05:05.876 --> 0:05:09.876 not useful at this point. Okay. And if you feel 0:05:09.876 --> 0:05:11.916 that you are already up there in the sky and 0:05:11.956 --> 0:05:15.236 this is not really useful, then you ask the how questions. 0:05:15.556 --> 0:05:18.276 You know, I want to be happy, like how, okay, 0:05:18.396 --> 0:05:21.076 well you know I want to have a relationship, Well 0:05:21.156 --> 0:05:26.156 you know how, Well I'm going to start meeting more people. Well, 0:05:26.276 --> 0:05:31.716 how I'm going to call my friend who knows many 0:05:31.756 --> 0:05:35.676 people and so on. A Yelle's research shows that the 0:05:35.676 --> 0:05:38.236 way we frame our goals can have a big impact 0:05:38.276 --> 0:05:42.076 on motivation. There are what she calls approach goals or 0:05:42.196 --> 0:05:45.756 do goals. For example, I want to eat healthier foods 0:05:45.876 --> 0:05:48.796 or I want to excel at my job, which are 0:05:48.836 --> 0:05:53.076 all about striving towards a good outcome, And then there 0:05:53.076 --> 0:05:56.956 are avoidance goals or do not goals like I do 0:05:56.996 --> 0:05:59.436 not want to get sick or I want to avoid 0:05:59.436 --> 0:06:02.636 getting fired, which are all about trying to avoid a 0:06:02.676 --> 0:06:06.196 bad outcome, and I yell. It says that whether reframe 0:06:06.276 --> 0:06:09.436 things in one way versus the other can some times 0:06:09.476 --> 0:06:12.276 just depend on the kind of person we are. Is 0:06:12.276 --> 0:06:14.596 there a question we can ask ourselves to figure out 0:06:14.636 --> 0:06:19.596 if we are more approach versus avoidance oriented. You can 0:06:19.676 --> 0:06:25.956 ask what drives you in life? Are you the kind 0:06:25.956 --> 0:06:30.716 of person that is worried about doing the wrong thing? Okay, 0:06:30.836 --> 0:06:36.316 that is a concern about trying out something that doesn't work. 0:06:36.956 --> 0:06:40.156 Are you concern about messing up? I'm going back to 0:06:40.276 --> 0:06:44.036 dating because I think this is actually illustrates this really well. 0:06:44.156 --> 0:06:48.516 Like when you think about finding someone in your life, 0:06:48.596 --> 0:06:52.556 are you thinking about approaching relationship or are you thinking 0:06:52.596 --> 0:06:56.796 about avoiding being lonely? How what feels right to you 0:06:56.916 --> 0:07:00.356 in your mind when you think about this goal. By 0:07:00.396 --> 0:07:02.996 the way, there is really a nice research joint that 0:07:03.076 --> 0:07:06.356 when people feel that they have power, the same goal 0:07:06.836 --> 0:07:10.116 will come to their mind more in terms of approaching 0:07:10.196 --> 0:07:12.676 than avoiding. Can you give me an example of what 0:07:12.676 --> 0:07:15.796 what you mean by having power, think about the work 0:07:15.836 --> 0:07:19.556 when you're meeting with your employee versus your boss, Okay, 0:07:19.556 --> 0:07:22.756 And often that changes in a manner of just you know, 0:07:23.236 --> 0:07:26.076 a few minutes. In one meeting, you are the person 0:07:26.236 --> 0:07:29.396 in power. You are the big boss, and I don't know, maya, 0:07:29.476 --> 0:07:32.356 maybe you're always the big boss, but I'm not, so 0:07:33.196 --> 0:07:36.916 I'm not either, Okay. So then you go to another 0:07:36.956 --> 0:07:40.676 meeting and you are, you know, the person that sits 0:07:40.676 --> 0:07:45.596 there quietly, and everybody else has more power. And in 0:07:45.636 --> 0:07:49.556 the first situation, when you are the boss, you are 0:07:49.636 --> 0:07:53.476 more likely to think about your work in terms of opportunities, 0:07:54.236 --> 0:07:58.076 and in the second setting, you're more likely to think 0:07:58.156 --> 0:08:01.276 about your job in terms of maybe opportunities to mess up. 0:08:02.476 --> 0:08:06.756 How do I not say the wrong thing? As opposed 0:08:06.796 --> 0:08:09.556 to what can I say that might be a useful 0:08:09.676 --> 0:08:15.516 it might move this forward. So so you've said that 0:08:15.556 --> 0:08:18.956 we just to summarize, you've said that that there can 0:08:18.956 --> 0:08:23.876 be these different environments that invoke our do goals and 0:08:23.916 --> 0:08:26.156 then other environments that invoke our do not goals. And 0:08:26.196 --> 0:08:28.476 then in addition to that, there are individual differences that 0:08:28.516 --> 0:08:32.916 can lead us towards one direction or the other. What 0:08:32.996 --> 0:08:34.716 would you recommend that we go with as as a 0:08:34.716 --> 0:08:37.396 default option as we're as we're going about our daily lives, 0:08:37.436 --> 0:08:39.116 and I'm you know, I've just read your book, I've 0:08:39.116 --> 0:08:40.916 just listened to this podcast, and I'm like, you know, 0:08:40.956 --> 0:08:44.756 I might have these proclivities, but maybe I should be 0:08:44.796 --> 0:08:48.436 reframing my goal in a certain way. Approach goals. Do 0:08:48.636 --> 0:08:52.476 goals are better than do not. The reason is because 0:08:52.756 --> 0:08:55.996 avoidance goals tend to be chores, and approach goals tend 0:08:56.076 --> 0:09:02.036 to be fun and exciting and often more intrinsically motivating. 0:09:02.836 --> 0:09:06.876 And so unless you really you need to protect your life, 0:09:06.876 --> 0:09:09.316 you need to do something to just making sure that 0:09:09.396 --> 0:09:11.516 you are safe in the short term. I mean, in 0:09:11.516 --> 0:09:18.196 which case avoidance framing fits use approach, Yeah, exactly. I 0:09:18.196 --> 0:09:21.156 think it's also important to note that our emotional responses 0:09:21.196 --> 0:09:24.316 to failure can be different when we framed our goals 0:09:24.316 --> 0:09:27.676 in terms of approach versus avoidant. Right, So when we 0:09:27.716 --> 0:09:30.596 achieve something that we're approaching, we can be filled with 0:09:30.716 --> 0:09:35.436 feelings of pride and accomplishment and fulfillment when we when 0:09:35.476 --> 0:09:38.876 we achieve a do not goal, right, um or I 0:09:38.876 --> 0:09:40.756 don't even know it's if you can call it achieving 0:09:40.756 --> 0:09:42.316 a do not goal. It kind of sounds a little 0:09:42.316 --> 0:09:45.476 bit odd. But when we when we um we don't 0:09:45.516 --> 0:09:50.316 have the thing happened to us, right, we feel feelings 0:09:50.356 --> 0:09:53.836 of relief and calm and relaxation like oh, you know, 0:09:53.876 --> 0:09:56.596 the swiping of the forehead, right, like the few thank 0:09:56.636 --> 0:09:59.836 god that didn't happen. When you are trying to avoid 0:09:59.876 --> 0:10:05.116 something and you successfully avoiding it, then you are in 0:10:05.156 --> 0:10:08.156 a way satisfied that you don't have the negative experience 0:10:08.236 --> 0:10:11.196 that you would have if you could not avoid it. Okay, 0:10:11.236 --> 0:10:15.476 So it's the absence of negative. Basically, in posuitive avoidance goals, 0:10:15.516 --> 0:10:18.196 often there is either negative if you fail, or the 0:10:18.236 --> 0:10:21.596 absence of negative, which is if you are successful with 0:10:21.716 --> 0:10:25.636 a bit of you know this relief that laculia, I'm 0:10:25.716 --> 0:10:29.076 not feeling horrible, right, Yeah. And it's also striking me 0:10:29.156 --> 0:10:31.996 right now that it's really hard to measure the absence 0:10:31.996 --> 0:10:34.876 of an activity and absence of an action, right. So 0:10:35.076 --> 0:10:36.916 a lot of times when you frame something in terms 0:10:36.916 --> 0:10:39.916 of avoidance, are you really keeping track of every time 0:10:39.956 --> 0:10:42.956 you avoided the chocolate cake, every time you avoided you know, 0:10:42.996 --> 0:10:45.756 the tempting option. That's just hard to measure, right, And 0:10:45.796 --> 0:10:48.316 so it can feel less motivating because you just have 0:10:48.436 --> 0:10:50.996 less signal about how much progress you're making. There's less 0:10:51.156 --> 0:10:54.116 to hold onto. That's why, for example, I'm such a 0:10:54.156 --> 0:10:56.156 that I've always I'm always telling everyone in my life 0:10:56.916 --> 0:10:59.516 you could probably cleanness about me. But I'm a superaction 0:10:59.556 --> 0:11:02.436 oriented person and so when the action item is to 0:11:02.516 --> 0:11:06.196 like wait or abstain from things, I really struggle. That's 0:11:06.316 --> 0:11:09.516 that's my weak point. You're not the only one, okay. 0:11:09.556 --> 0:11:12.196 When you're trying to avoid something, you're constantly checking whether 0:11:12.236 --> 0:11:17.836 you're avoiding it and by that bringing it back to mind. Yeah, 0:11:17.956 --> 0:11:20.996 when it comes to setting our goals, one topic that 0:11:21.716 --> 0:11:23.916 I loved reading about in your book was about the 0:11:23.956 --> 0:11:27.076 importance of who is setting the goal. And the reason 0:11:27.076 --> 0:11:29.356 that's particularly consonant with this show a slight change of 0:11:29.436 --> 0:11:31.876 plans is that we're often talking about the role of 0:11:31.956 --> 0:11:35.596 agency right in making choices and projecting things about the 0:11:35.596 --> 0:11:39.436 future and reflecting back on how our changes have affected us. 0:11:39.436 --> 0:11:43.076 And you say that when we own our own targets right, 0:11:43.076 --> 0:11:45.916 we're way better at executing on them and we're more 0:11:45.956 --> 0:11:48.116 likely to stay motivated. And I just, I mean, I 0:11:48.156 --> 0:11:50.356 guess I just love the research on agency in general 0:11:50.476 --> 0:11:53.036 because it just reinforces how much we love being the 0:11:53.116 --> 0:11:57.196 driver's seat, you know, metaphorically, and then when we own 0:11:57.236 --> 0:12:01.516 that process, we're more likely to stay the course. Yes, absolutely, 0:12:01.556 --> 0:12:04.556 and we know that for many years that people really 0:12:05.316 --> 0:12:08.916 need to have control over their lives and need to 0:12:08.956 --> 0:12:14.196 feel that they are in control when negative outcomes happen, 0:12:14.316 --> 0:12:17.596 and we all have negative outcomes. When you feel that 0:12:17.676 --> 0:12:21.276 it's outside of your control, that the world is cruel 0:12:21.356 --> 0:12:25.636 and it's nothing to do with how you behave this 0:12:25.756 --> 0:12:30.356 is much more problematic than when you experience that you 0:12:30.436 --> 0:12:35.236 do have control and nevertheless had the same and negative outcomes. 0:12:36.556 --> 0:12:40.596 On top of it, when other people set the goal 0:12:40.716 --> 0:12:45.636 for you, that brings react and stand. You know, you 0:12:45.636 --> 0:12:48.316 feel like they are controlling you. You want to argue 0:12:49.036 --> 0:12:53.676 with them, you resent them for demanding certain things from you, 0:12:53.836 --> 0:12:57.356 and and owning your goals is not just good for 0:12:57.396 --> 0:13:01.436 you psychologically, it also helps achieving these goals. You're less 0:13:01.476 --> 0:13:04.116 likely to have these two minds. Yeah, I will do 0:13:04.156 --> 0:13:06.396 this maya because you ask me, But I also resent 0:13:06.436 --> 0:13:08.236 the fact that you ask me, and so I'm not 0:13:08.276 --> 0:13:11.156 going to do my best. Yeah, and I like that, 0:13:11.236 --> 0:13:13.396 do you know? Obviously a lot of us don't get 0:13:13.436 --> 0:13:16.836 to control all of the goals that are set for us. Right, 0:13:16.876 --> 0:13:20.756 we have jobs, we have responsibilities. As you mentioned your book, 0:13:20.596 --> 0:13:23.596 we might be working with a coach of some sort, 0:13:23.876 --> 0:13:27.076 but what you've recommended is that at a minimum, that 0:13:27.196 --> 0:13:28.876 person might be able to give us a set of 0:13:28.876 --> 0:13:31.756 options from which to choose. Right. So, if you're working 0:13:31.756 --> 0:13:34.596 with a personal trainer, let's say they can give you Okay, 0:13:34.636 --> 0:13:37.076 you can do you know, the StairMaster or the elliptical, 0:13:37.236 --> 0:13:39.516 or we can lift weights. Right, and it's just the 0:13:39.596 --> 0:13:41.756 idea of Okay, here's the option set that I know 0:13:41.796 --> 0:13:44.236 will help you thrive. But you can still choose, choose 0:13:44.236 --> 0:13:49.036 among those options. Yes, yeah, ask for options, ask for 0:13:49.196 --> 0:13:53.556 alternative ways to pursue your goals so that you you 0:13:53.676 --> 0:13:57.676 do get some sense of control. Yeah, it's making me 0:13:57.756 --> 0:14:01.796 think that I should tell my husband, Jimmy in the future. Okay, Jimmy, 0:14:01.996 --> 0:14:06.236 here's the option set. Unloading the dishwasher, loading the dishwasher, 0:14:06.596 --> 0:14:09.516 taking out the trash, your choice, buddy, But one of 0:14:09.556 --> 0:14:11.756 these is going to be accompanied with more motivation. I 0:14:11.836 --> 0:14:15.476 love it. See you're helping on motivation. You're helping, you know, 0:14:15.636 --> 0:14:19.356 marital relationships. This is fantastic. Yeah, you know, we didn't 0:14:19.356 --> 0:14:22.756 even get to relationship. Ye. Yeah, we haven't gone there yet. Okay, 0:14:22.796 --> 0:14:24.516 So I want to wrap up this part of the 0:14:24.516 --> 0:14:28.036 conversation where we're talking about how to better set goals 0:14:28.756 --> 0:14:32.276 with my favorite recommendation from you, which is to make 0:14:32.276 --> 0:14:34.396 sure that we're setting our goals when we're in a 0:14:34.516 --> 0:14:38.836 similar psychological and physiological state as the one will will 0:14:38.956 --> 0:14:42.036 be in ultimately when we are actually striving for that goal. 0:14:43.316 --> 0:14:45.716 And I mean, this is just this is such smart 0:14:45.756 --> 0:14:49.716 advice because of course our aspirational selves can can race 0:14:49.756 --> 0:14:51.516 away from us and say, oh yeah, I can totally 0:14:51.596 --> 0:14:55.316 imagine eating salad for every single meal, or you know, 0:14:55.676 --> 0:14:58.156 in work, adopting a totally new set of habits. But 0:14:58.476 --> 0:15:00.636 what you said is no, Actually to have a little 0:15:00.676 --> 0:15:03.636 bit of a temperature check and to ground your goals 0:15:03.676 --> 0:15:06.156 in reality. Make sure that you're actually at work when 0:15:06.156 --> 0:15:09.436 you're setting those goals, or if you're thinking about healthier eating, 0:15:09.556 --> 0:15:11.756 make the goals when you are totally fal and it's 0:15:11.756 --> 0:15:13.396 easy to say that you're always going to be able 0:15:13.396 --> 0:15:17.836 to eat the healthier option versus you know, the unhealthy one. Yeah, 0:15:17.836 --> 0:15:21.076 well you summarize it beautifully, so one reason for this 0:15:21.236 --> 0:15:24.436 is the empathy gap is our tendency not to be 0:15:24.636 --> 0:15:29.476 very empathetic to our future selves. And so you know, 0:15:29.596 --> 0:15:35.516 when we plan our career transition, we think that this 0:15:35.716 --> 0:15:38.476 future person that we are going to be is going 0:15:38.516 --> 0:15:42.956 to wake up at six am, start walking at seven am, right, 0:15:43.076 --> 0:15:46.396 and walk until they get dinner and go to sleep, 0:15:46.436 --> 0:15:48.796 and so that person is going to accomplish a lot. 0:15:50.076 --> 0:15:52.836 The problem is that that person is going to be us, 0:15:52.916 --> 0:15:57.116 and so that person will be baled or tired and 0:15:57.196 --> 0:16:01.436 everything else, and the empathy gap, it's just very how 0:16:01.596 --> 0:16:04.796 to overcome. If you set your goals when you're in 0:16:04.796 --> 0:16:09.556 a similar state, that helps you being more empathy addicted 0:16:09.716 --> 0:16:11.876 to this person that will have to follow through with 0:16:11.956 --> 0:16:15.996 the goals and the danger lives and if you don't 0:16:16.036 --> 0:16:19.996 do this and setting unreasonable goals and then basically jumping 0:16:20.036 --> 0:16:23.036 ship when you when you find that it's it's not 0:16:23.116 --> 0:16:27.916 even within the realm of of you know, practical life 0:16:27.956 --> 0:16:30.396 to be able to do those things right. It's so 0:16:30.436 --> 0:16:33.916 the problem with unrealistic goals is that we get discouraged. 0:16:34.316 --> 0:16:37.636 Usually we don't really care about the specific target that 0:16:37.756 --> 0:16:39.676 we set. We care about setting a goal so that 0:16:39.756 --> 0:16:42.476 we are motivated right so that we want to walk hard. 0:16:42.516 --> 0:16:46.476 But if we perceive that the goal is completely unrealistic, 0:16:46.556 --> 0:16:49.716 then we give up and we walk much less than 0:16:49.756 --> 0:16:54.476 if we set a more realistic but motivating goals. So 0:16:55.116 --> 0:16:57.596 the risk is that will just say, ah, that's never 0:16:57.636 --> 0:17:00.156 going to happen, and therefore I should do absolutely nothing 0:17:00.196 --> 0:17:05.276 about it. After the break, I will share how we 0:17:05.316 --> 0:17:08.716 can use science based strategies to sustain our motivation as 0:17:08.716 --> 0:17:12.156 we make progress towards our goals. We'll be right back 0:17:12.236 --> 0:17:21.076 with a slight change of plans. So you've taught us 0:17:21.116 --> 0:17:24.236 a lot about how we can better set our goals, 0:17:24.756 --> 0:17:27.076 and now I'd love to talk about how we can 0:17:27.116 --> 0:17:30.476 sustain our motivation to make progress on those goals. And 0:17:30.716 --> 0:17:33.916 the first step in doing this is just to get 0:17:33.996 --> 0:17:36.516 your foot in the door period right to begin the activity. 0:17:36.516 --> 0:17:38.916 And you've talked about how important that first step is 0:17:38.956 --> 0:17:42.156 because it can lead to almost a disproportionate impact on 0:17:42.756 --> 0:17:44.956 motivation in the longer term. Do you mind sharing more 0:17:44.956 --> 0:17:49.956 about that. The difference between CEO and one steps is huge, 0:17:50.996 --> 0:17:54.796 and that means that people are usually very enthusiastic when 0:17:54.836 --> 0:17:59.716 they start something, and we can help ourselves maintain this 0:17:59.836 --> 0:18:03.596 commitment or you know, I help others and stay committed 0:18:03.676 --> 0:18:07.316 by looking back by notice that we already took the 0:18:07.356 --> 0:18:11.116 first step. Okay, so taking that first step can give 0:18:11.196 --> 0:18:13.036 us the boost we need to stay in the game. 0:18:13.676 --> 0:18:15.956 It signals to our brains that we care about the 0:18:15.996 --> 0:18:18.476 goal and that we've taken at least one step towards 0:18:18.516 --> 0:18:22.076 achieving it. But there's an additional challenge that lies ahead. 0:18:22.716 --> 0:18:26.076 Research shows we often have trouble sustaining this motivation as 0:18:26.116 --> 0:18:29.516 we pursue our goals. Our motivation often flags as we 0:18:29.556 --> 0:18:33.316 approach the halfway point, what eyel It calls the middle problem. 0:18:33.996 --> 0:18:36.996 You have high motivation at the beginning and high motivation 0:18:37.076 --> 0:18:40.956 at the end, but then there is the middle, and 0:18:41.076 --> 0:18:47.196 the middle is when your motivation is usually lower, both 0:18:47.236 --> 0:18:49.716 in terms of doing the thing and also in terms 0:18:49.756 --> 0:18:52.716 of doing it right. Okay, so we see that people 0:18:52.836 --> 0:18:56.596 are less likely to engage, but they're also going to 0:18:56.796 --> 0:19:00.916 relax their performance standards. People are not going to do 0:19:01.076 --> 0:19:06.036 such a good job. Okay. We did the study in 0:19:06.036 --> 0:19:08.996 which we gave people a bunch of shapes on the 0:19:09.156 --> 0:19:10.956 a piece of paper and they had to cut them 0:19:11.756 --> 0:19:14.316 with just a pair of scissors. And like the first 0:19:14.316 --> 0:19:16.996 shape they cut, well, the last shape they cut whale 0:19:17.636 --> 0:19:22.516 in the middle, they were literally cutting corners. I love that. 0:19:23.236 --> 0:19:28.116 So they were literally relaxing their performance standards. You know, 0:19:28.196 --> 0:19:32.996 studies on cheating they found that, you know, if people 0:19:33.076 --> 0:19:36.596 ever cheat, they are not going to do this on 0:19:36.676 --> 0:19:39.156 the first time. Okay, they're going to do it more 0:19:39.516 --> 0:19:43.676 towards the middle, and so we walk less hard in 0:19:43.716 --> 0:19:46.996 the middle. We also don't do such a great job. 0:19:49.076 --> 0:19:53.756 So what can we do to address this dreaded middle problem? 0:19:54.076 --> 0:19:57.876 You can actually get rid of middles yet exist. Yeah, 0:19:58.036 --> 0:20:01.836 no middles. No, Well, we need to have middles, but 0:20:01.916 --> 0:20:06.116 we can keep them short. Either. An annual goal might 0:20:06.236 --> 0:20:11.396 be a monthly goal. So instead of saving money this year, 0:20:11.396 --> 0:20:14.676 I think about saving money this month. An exercising goal 0:20:14.716 --> 0:20:17.836 could be a weekly exercising goal. And if you if 0:20:17.836 --> 0:20:21.436 you might have a weekly exercising goal, I'm pretty sure 0:20:21.476 --> 0:20:24.876 that you will have another weekly exercising goal next week. Right, 0:20:25.116 --> 0:20:28.956 you're not going to really get to the end of 0:20:28.996 --> 0:20:33.636 this goal. But by defining it more nearly, by setting 0:20:33.676 --> 0:20:37.116 sub goals, we can fight these middles. We can also 0:20:37.196 --> 0:20:43.796 remind ourselves that our identity is Let's take a more identity, 0:20:43.916 --> 0:20:47.156 remind us thinking that whatever we do reflect on who 0:20:47.156 --> 0:20:52.076 we are as a person is helping us do a 0:20:52.116 --> 0:20:56.436 good job. Is there an example a lot of you, 0:20:56.436 --> 0:20:59.076 you know, shortening the middle or refraining things in your 0:20:59.116 --> 0:21:02.836 life to try to get around the middle problem. Well, 0:21:02.876 --> 0:21:07.916 I do try not to think about the full time 0:21:07.996 --> 0:21:10.116 in which I will see you a goal. So every 0:21:10.156 --> 0:21:14.676 research project it takes years, but I really try to 0:21:14.716 --> 0:21:18.076 think about what I'm going to do this quarter. So 0:21:18.356 --> 0:21:22.956 the middle is really short. And every quarter we start 0:21:23.076 --> 0:21:26.796 in my lab by just telling each other what are 0:21:26.796 --> 0:21:29.596 the goals that we are going to pursue for this 0:21:29.676 --> 0:21:33.316 period of time and what needs to be completed. Okay, 0:21:33.356 --> 0:21:36.316 So when it comes to when it comes to sustaining 0:21:36.356 --> 0:21:40.636 our motivation, and obvious natural place for us to dive 0:21:40.676 --> 0:21:44.836 in is to talk about one driver or motivation, which 0:21:44.916 --> 0:21:49.356 is incentives. Right. Yes, I think about incentives as mini goals. Okay. 0:21:49.916 --> 0:21:53.396 What we find is that it's really critical to incentivize 0:21:53.436 --> 0:21:57.236 the white thing. Okay, so not a proxy, not something 0:21:57.276 --> 0:22:01.556 that is just easy to measure. But do you mind 0:22:01.596 --> 0:22:05.236 getting us an example of what it means to reward 0:22:05.476 --> 0:22:10.396 the quote right thing? Yes, what does it mean to 0:22:10.436 --> 0:22:15.316 reward the right thing. Often we reward what is easy 0:22:15.356 --> 0:22:18.196 to measure. Okay, so we might reward ourselves for how 0:22:18.276 --> 0:22:21.716 many hours we set in front of our computer, but 0:22:22.276 --> 0:22:26.436 not really on whether we were productive, whether we did 0:22:26.476 --> 0:22:31.276 work that gets us somewhere. Maybe we were just answering 0:22:31.396 --> 0:22:33.876 emails and kind of killing time, but we did work 0:22:33.956 --> 0:22:41.276 for many hours. When we incentivize others, we sometimes incentivize 0:22:41.316 --> 0:22:44.796 them for doing things very quickly, but really we should 0:22:44.836 --> 0:22:48.876 care more about the quality. Another piece of advice eile 0:22:48.956 --> 0:22:51.876 It has when it comes to staying motivated is sometimes 0:22:51.916 --> 0:22:55.636 turn to ourselves for advice. In a study eile It ran, 0:22:55.876 --> 0:22:59.436 she identified people who were struggling to achieve a specific goal. 0:23:00.316 --> 0:23:02.756 They were then asked to share their own advice for 0:23:02.836 --> 0:23:05.756 how to reach that goal, or they were given advice 0:23:05.876 --> 0:23:09.596 from an expert, and then researchers measured had these two 0:23:09.636 --> 0:23:13.556 different sources of advice affected motivation levels, and what they 0:23:13.596 --> 0:23:18.116 found was really surprising. So we asked unemployed people to 0:23:18.156 --> 0:23:20.196 give advice on how to get a job. We ask 0:23:20.316 --> 0:23:22.716 people who said that they are struggling with being angry 0:23:22.716 --> 0:23:25.756 to give advice on how to control you anger. People 0:23:25.796 --> 0:23:29.196 were more motivated by their own advice than by the 0:23:29.356 --> 0:23:33.396 advice that we have given them, which with though was 0:23:33.556 --> 0:23:38.116 really interesting because it suggested when when you just increase 0:23:38.196 --> 0:23:41.356 your confidence, So when you just remind yourself of how 0:23:41.436 --> 0:23:44.236 much you know, okay, like you remind yourself that you're 0:23:44.276 --> 0:23:48.876 the expert and get confident as a result, then you 0:23:48.916 --> 0:23:52.556 are motivated to do something about it. Yeah, can we 0:23:52.596 --> 0:23:54.316 can we take in a little bit more into the 0:23:54.396 --> 0:23:58.156 mechanism that's at play here. I was in particular interested 0:23:58.196 --> 0:24:02.036 in people who are struggling. So the people who when 0:24:02.076 --> 0:24:05.556 I asked them to give advice, they've started by saying, 0:24:05.836 --> 0:24:08.116 why would you ask me? Like what do I know? 0:24:09.996 --> 0:24:13.476 Obviously I'm like, I don't know what they said? Why 0:24:13.476 --> 0:24:16.396 would you ask me about dieting? And you know, I 0:24:16.436 --> 0:24:18.876 didn't have a conversation with most of them. But the 0:24:18.956 --> 0:24:21.476 people that I didn't have a conversation with, I was saying, 0:24:21.516 --> 0:24:24.236 you are you kidding me? Like you know more than 0:24:24.316 --> 0:24:27.076 other people because you were struggling with this, Okay, like 0:24:27.516 --> 0:24:31.396 you've learned. You've been doing it now for a while. 0:24:31.756 --> 0:24:35.356 You try things and maybe they didn't work, and so 0:24:35.716 --> 0:24:38.436 you learn, Okay, some things did work for you. You 0:24:38.596 --> 0:24:42.636 learn from those too. And it turned out that when 0:24:42.636 --> 0:24:46.076 people are willing to go beyond this first reaction of 0:24:46.876 --> 0:24:49.476 what do I know? Okay, obviously I'm not doing it 0:24:49.636 --> 0:24:53.276 very well, they realize that they have a lot of knowledge. 0:24:54.356 --> 0:24:57.676