1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:33,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin. So the problem with unrealistic goals is that we 2 00:00:33,236 --> 00:00:37,956 Speaker 1: get discouraged. If we perceive that the goal is completely unrealistic, 3 00:00:38,036 --> 00:00:41,076 Speaker 1: then we give up and we walk much less than 4 00:00:41,116 --> 00:00:45,796 Speaker 1: if we set a more realistic but motivating goal. So 5 00:00:46,476 --> 00:00:48,956 Speaker 1: the whisky is that will just say, ah, that's never 6 00:00:48,996 --> 00:00:51,516 Speaker 1: going to happen, and therefore I should do absolutely nothing 7 00:00:51,556 --> 00:00:55,716 Speaker 1: about it. Doctor Yellette Fishbach is a professor of behavioral 8 00:00:55,756 --> 00:00:59,036 Speaker 1: science at the University of Chicago and it's the author 9 00:00:59,076 --> 00:01:02,676 Speaker 1: of the best selling book Get It Done. Surprising Lessons 10 00:01:02,716 --> 00:01:06,516 Speaker 1: from the Science of Motivation. She spent decades studying how 11 00:01:06,556 --> 00:01:08,556 Speaker 1: we can get better at not only setting the right 12 00:01:08,596 --> 00:01:12,116 Speaker 1: goals for our selves, but also sticking with them. One 13 00:01:12,116 --> 00:01:15,036 Speaker 1: of her strategies is to think carefully about what we 14 00:01:15,076 --> 00:01:17,636 Speaker 1: reward ourselves for when we're trying to reach a goal. 15 00:01:18,836 --> 00:01:22,156 Speaker 1: Often we reward what is easy to measure. Okay, so 16 00:01:22,236 --> 00:01:25,316 Speaker 1: we might reward ourselves for how many hours we set 17 00:01:25,396 --> 00:01:29,156 Speaker 1: in front of our computer, but not really on whether 18 00:01:29,236 --> 00:01:34,316 Speaker 1: we were productive, whether we did work that gets us somewhere. 19 00:01:34,916 --> 00:01:38,596 Speaker 1: Maybe we were just answering emails and kind of killing time, 20 00:01:38,596 --> 00:01:42,356 Speaker 1: but we did work for many hours. But really we 21 00:01:42,356 --> 00:01:47,356 Speaker 1: should care more about the quality. On today's show, we 22 00:01:47,436 --> 00:01:50,196 Speaker 1: learned about the science of motivation so that we can 23 00:01:50,236 --> 00:01:55,716 Speaker 1: set smarter goals and actually reach them. I'm Maya Shankar 24 00:01:55,996 --> 00:01:58,596 Speaker 1: and this is a slight change of plans, a show 25 00:01:58,636 --> 00:02:00,876 Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the 26 00:02:00,956 --> 00:02:14,996 Speaker 1: face of a big change. I've known Ielt since I 27 00:02:15,076 --> 00:02:17,556 Speaker 1: was a post doc studying the science of decision making, 28 00:02:18,076 --> 00:02:20,596 Speaker 1: and her research has had a big personal impact on me. 29 00:02:21,556 --> 00:02:23,516 Speaker 1: I was eager to have her on the show because 30 00:02:23,556 --> 00:02:27,236 Speaker 1: motivation is a key ingredient in successfully changing our lives, 31 00:02:27,916 --> 00:02:30,716 Speaker 1: and her science based strategies can help us think differently 32 00:02:30,796 --> 00:02:33,076 Speaker 1: about how we set goals and how we ought to 33 00:02:33,116 --> 00:02:36,876 Speaker 1: pursue them. So let's start with the basics. How should 34 00:02:36,876 --> 00:02:40,676 Speaker 1: we define our goals? You talk about traps that we 35 00:02:40,716 --> 00:02:43,196 Speaker 1: can fall into when it comes to setting our goals, 36 00:02:43,676 --> 00:02:47,076 Speaker 1: and one of those is when we unintentionally define our 37 00:02:47,076 --> 00:02:52,356 Speaker 1: goals to feel more like chores than like aspirations. Yes it, 38 00:02:52,716 --> 00:02:55,396 Speaker 1: chores are the things that we need to do so 39 00:02:55,436 --> 00:03:00,556 Speaker 1: that we can achieve our goals, and often we define 40 00:03:00,596 --> 00:03:02,636 Speaker 1: the goal in terms of the shore. So we might, 41 00:03:02,996 --> 00:03:06,476 Speaker 1: for example, define our goal in terms of applying for 42 00:03:06,556 --> 00:03:09,876 Speaker 1: a job instead of getting a job stead of having 43 00:03:09,876 --> 00:03:13,236 Speaker 1: a career. Applying for a job for most people is 44 00:03:13,316 --> 00:03:17,716 Speaker 1: no fun. Going on a date it gave for many people, 45 00:03:17,836 --> 00:03:21,556 Speaker 1: that's not really fun. That's a joke, okay. The goal 46 00:03:21,636 --> 00:03:24,836 Speaker 1: is to find someone. The goal is to start a relationship, 47 00:03:25,796 --> 00:03:28,756 Speaker 1: and so defining that the goal on the level that 48 00:03:28,956 --> 00:03:33,076 Speaker 1: is exciting, that identifies what you want to achieve, is important. 49 00:03:33,956 --> 00:03:37,036 Speaker 1: Don't make it too obstruct A goal that doesn't have 50 00:03:37,076 --> 00:03:39,556 Speaker 1: any action that is connected to it gave. If someone 51 00:03:39,556 --> 00:03:42,276 Speaker 1: says my goal is to be happy and they cannot 52 00:03:42,396 --> 00:03:45,396 Speaker 1: name the actions that will make them happy, then this 53 00:03:45,516 --> 00:03:48,956 Speaker 1: is not useful either. But there is this like sweet 54 00:03:49,036 --> 00:03:53,316 Speaker 1: spot between something that is exciting that defines where you 55 00:03:53,516 --> 00:03:57,676 Speaker 1: want to be, not necessarily what you need to do 56 00:03:57,756 --> 00:04:00,436 Speaker 1: in order to get there, but it's nevertheless connected to 57 00:04:00,996 --> 00:04:05,716 Speaker 1: these actions. And whereas that sweet spot exactly, it depends 58 00:04:05,756 --> 00:04:08,156 Speaker 1: on many factors. But there are two different types of 59 00:04:08,236 --> 00:04:10,956 Speaker 1: questions you can ask yourself that will pull you in 60 00:04:10,956 --> 00:04:15,116 Speaker 1: different directions and help you find that balance why questions 61 00:04:15,356 --> 00:04:20,396 Speaker 1: and how questions. So to get yourself to think more 62 00:04:20,436 --> 00:04:25,476 Speaker 1: abstractly about your goals, you need to ask many why questions, 63 00:04:25,916 --> 00:04:32,756 Speaker 1: like I want to sign up for JIM membership. Why Okay, 64 00:04:32,756 --> 00:04:38,236 Speaker 1: because I want to start running? Why because I want 65 00:04:38,276 --> 00:04:42,196 Speaker 1: to be healthier? And so on, And every why question 66 00:04:43,156 --> 00:04:46,556 Speaker 1: makes you a bit more abstruct. Now stop with the 67 00:04:46,636 --> 00:04:50,476 Speaker 1: why on the level where it's no longer really connected 68 00:04:50,476 --> 00:04:53,476 Speaker 1: to action. Okay. So when you ask people why and 69 00:04:53,516 --> 00:04:57,196 Speaker 1: why and why, eventually they give you something very because 70 00:04:57,196 --> 00:05:01,316 Speaker 1: I exist, Yeah, exactly, exactly, because I must still the 71 00:05:01,356 --> 00:05:05,036 Speaker 1: time that I have on this earth. Yes, and that's 72 00:05:05,876 --> 00:05:09,876 Speaker 1: not useful at this point. Okay. And if you feel 73 00:05:09,876 --> 00:05:11,916 Speaker 1: that you are already up there in the sky and 74 00:05:11,956 --> 00:05:15,236 Speaker 1: this is not really useful, then you ask the how questions. 75 00:05:15,556 --> 00:05:18,276 Speaker 1: You know, I want to be happy, like how, okay, 76 00:05:18,396 --> 00:05:21,076 Speaker 1: well you know I want to have a relationship, Well 77 00:05:21,156 --> 00:05:26,156 Speaker 1: you know how, Well I'm going to start meeting more people. Well, 78 00:05:26,276 --> 00:05:31,716 Speaker 1: how I'm going to call my friend who knows many 79 00:05:31,756 --> 00:05:35,676 Speaker 1: people and so on. A Yelle's research shows that the 80 00:05:35,676 --> 00:05:38,236 Speaker 1: way we frame our goals can have a big impact 81 00:05:38,276 --> 00:05:42,076 Speaker 1: on motivation. There are what she calls approach goals or 82 00:05:42,196 --> 00:05:45,756 Speaker 1: do goals. For example, I want to eat healthier foods 83 00:05:45,876 --> 00:05:48,796 Speaker 1: or I want to excel at my job, which are 84 00:05:48,836 --> 00:05:53,076 Speaker 1: all about striving towards a good outcome, And then there 85 00:05:53,076 --> 00:05:56,956 Speaker 1: are avoidance goals or do not goals like I do 86 00:05:56,996 --> 00:05:59,436 Speaker 1: not want to get sick or I want to avoid 87 00:05:59,436 --> 00:06:02,636 Speaker 1: getting fired, which are all about trying to avoid a 88 00:06:02,676 --> 00:06:06,196 Speaker 1: bad outcome, and I yell. It says that whether reframe 89 00:06:06,276 --> 00:06:09,436 Speaker 1: things in one way versus the other can some times 90 00:06:09,476 --> 00:06:12,276 Speaker 1: just depend on the kind of person we are. Is 91 00:06:12,276 --> 00:06:14,596 Speaker 1: there a question we can ask ourselves to figure out 92 00:06:14,636 --> 00:06:19,596 Speaker 1: if we are more approach versus avoidance oriented. You can 93 00:06:19,676 --> 00:06:25,956 Speaker 1: ask what drives you in life? Are you the kind 94 00:06:25,956 --> 00:06:30,716 Speaker 1: of person that is worried about doing the wrong thing? Okay, 95 00:06:30,836 --> 00:06:36,316 Speaker 1: that is a concern about trying out something that doesn't work. 96 00:06:36,956 --> 00:06:40,156 Speaker 1: Are you concern about messing up? I'm going back to 97 00:06:40,276 --> 00:06:44,036 Speaker 1: dating because I think this is actually illustrates this really well. 98 00:06:44,156 --> 00:06:48,516 Speaker 1: Like when you think about finding someone in your life, 99 00:06:48,596 --> 00:06:52,556 Speaker 1: are you thinking about approaching relationship or are you thinking 100 00:06:52,596 --> 00:06:56,796 Speaker 1: about avoiding being lonely? How what feels right to you 101 00:06:56,916 --> 00:07:00,356 Speaker 1: in your mind when you think about this goal. By 102 00:07:00,396 --> 00:07:02,996 Speaker 1: the way, there is really a nice research joint that 103 00:07:03,076 --> 00:07:06,356 Speaker 1: when people feel that they have power, the same goal 104 00:07:06,836 --> 00:07:10,116 Speaker 1: will come to their mind more in terms of approaching 105 00:07:10,196 --> 00:07:12,676 Speaker 1: than avoiding. Can you give me an example of what 106 00:07:12,676 --> 00:07:15,796 Speaker 1: what you mean by having power, think about the work 107 00:07:15,836 --> 00:07:19,556 Speaker 1: when you're meeting with your employee versus your boss, Okay, 108 00:07:19,556 --> 00:07:22,756 Speaker 1: And often that changes in a manner of just you know, 109 00:07:23,236 --> 00:07:26,076 Speaker 1: a few minutes. In one meeting, you are the person 110 00:07:26,236 --> 00:07:29,396 Speaker 1: in power. You are the big boss, and I don't know, maya, 111 00:07:29,476 --> 00:07:32,356 Speaker 1: maybe you're always the big boss, but I'm not, so 112 00:07:33,196 --> 00:07:36,916 Speaker 1: I'm not either, Okay. So then you go to another 113 00:07:36,956 --> 00:07:40,676 Speaker 1: meeting and you are, you know, the person that sits 114 00:07:40,676 --> 00:07:45,596 Speaker 1: there quietly, and everybody else has more power. And in 115 00:07:45,636 --> 00:07:49,556 Speaker 1: the first situation, when you are the boss, you are 116 00:07:49,636 --> 00:07:53,476 Speaker 1: more likely to think about your work in terms of opportunities, 117 00:07:54,236 --> 00:07:58,076 Speaker 1: and in the second setting, you're more likely to think 118 00:07:58,156 --> 00:08:01,276 Speaker 1: about your job in terms of maybe opportunities to mess up. 119 00:08:02,476 --> 00:08:06,756 Speaker 1: How do I not say the wrong thing? As opposed 120 00:08:06,796 --> 00:08:09,556 Speaker 1: to what can I say that might be a useful 121 00:08:09,676 --> 00:08:15,516 Speaker 1: it might move this forward. So so you've said that 122 00:08:15,556 --> 00:08:18,956 Speaker 1: we just to summarize, you've said that that there can 123 00:08:18,956 --> 00:08:23,876 Speaker 1: be these different environments that invoke our do goals and 124 00:08:23,916 --> 00:08:26,156 Speaker 1: then other environments that invoke our do not goals. And 125 00:08:26,196 --> 00:08:28,476 Speaker 1: then in addition to that, there are individual differences that 126 00:08:28,516 --> 00:08:32,916 Speaker 1: can lead us towards one direction or the other. What 127 00:08:32,996 --> 00:08:34,716 Speaker 1: would you recommend that we go with as as a 128 00:08:34,716 --> 00:08:37,396 Speaker 1: default option as we're as we're going about our daily lives, 129 00:08:37,436 --> 00:08:39,116 Speaker 1: and I'm you know, I've just read your book, I've 130 00:08:39,116 --> 00:08:40,916 Speaker 1: just listened to this podcast, and I'm like, you know, 131 00:08:40,956 --> 00:08:44,756 Speaker 1: I might have these proclivities, but maybe I should be 132 00:08:44,796 --> 00:08:48,436 Speaker 1: reframing my goal in a certain way. Approach goals. Do 133 00:08:48,636 --> 00:08:52,476 Speaker 1: goals are better than do not. The reason is because 134 00:08:52,756 --> 00:08:55,996 Speaker 1: avoidance goals tend to be chores, and approach goals tend 135 00:08:56,076 --> 00:09:02,036 Speaker 1: to be fun and exciting and often more intrinsically motivating. 136 00:09:02,836 --> 00:09:06,876 Speaker 1: And so unless you really you need to protect your life, 137 00:09:06,876 --> 00:09:09,316 Speaker 1: you need to do something to just making sure that 138 00:09:09,396 --> 00:09:11,516 Speaker 1: you are safe in the short term. I mean, in 139 00:09:11,516 --> 00:09:18,196 Speaker 1: which case avoidance framing fits use approach, Yeah, exactly. I 140 00:09:18,196 --> 00:09:21,156 Speaker 1: think it's also important to note that our emotional responses 141 00:09:21,196 --> 00:09:24,316 Speaker 1: to failure can be different when we framed our goals 142 00:09:24,316 --> 00:09:27,676 Speaker 1: in terms of approach versus avoidant. Right, So when we 143 00:09:27,716 --> 00:09:30,596 Speaker 1: achieve something that we're approaching, we can be filled with 144 00:09:30,716 --> 00:09:35,436 Speaker 1: feelings of pride and accomplishment and fulfillment when we when 145 00:09:35,476 --> 00:09:38,876 Speaker 1: we achieve a do not goal, right, um or I 146 00:09:38,876 --> 00:09:40,756 Speaker 1: don't even know it's if you can call it achieving 147 00:09:40,756 --> 00:09:42,316 Speaker 1: a do not goal. It kind of sounds a little 148 00:09:42,316 --> 00:09:45,476 Speaker 1: bit odd. But when we when we um we don't 149 00:09:45,516 --> 00:09:50,316 Speaker 1: have the thing happened to us, right, we feel feelings 150 00:09:50,356 --> 00:09:53,836 Speaker 1: of relief and calm and relaxation like oh, you know, 151 00:09:53,876 --> 00:09:56,596 Speaker 1: the swiping of the forehead, right, like the few thank 152 00:09:56,636 --> 00:09:59,836 Speaker 1: god that didn't happen. When you are trying to avoid 153 00:09:59,876 --> 00:10:05,116 Speaker 1: something and you successfully avoiding it, then you are in 154 00:10:05,156 --> 00:10:08,156 Speaker 1: a way satisfied that you don't have the negative experience 155 00:10:08,236 --> 00:10:11,196 Speaker 1: that you would have if you could not avoid it. Okay, 156 00:10:11,236 --> 00:10:15,476 Speaker 1: So it's the absence of negative. Basically, in posuitive avoidance goals, 157 00:10:15,516 --> 00:10:18,196 Speaker 1: often there is either negative if you fail, or the 158 00:10:18,236 --> 00:10:21,596 Speaker 1: absence of negative, which is if you are successful with 159 00:10:21,716 --> 00:10:25,636 Speaker 1: a bit of you know this relief that laculia, I'm 160 00:10:25,716 --> 00:10:29,076 Speaker 1: not feeling horrible, right, Yeah. And it's also striking me 161 00:10:29,156 --> 00:10:31,996 Speaker 1: right now that it's really hard to measure the absence 162 00:10:31,996 --> 00:10:34,876 Speaker 1: of an activity and absence of an action, right. So 163 00:10:35,076 --> 00:10:36,916 Speaker 1: a lot of times when you frame something in terms 164 00:10:36,916 --> 00:10:39,916 Speaker 1: of avoidance, are you really keeping track of every time 165 00:10:39,956 --> 00:10:42,956 Speaker 1: you avoided the chocolate cake, every time you avoided you know, 166 00:10:42,996 --> 00:10:45,756 Speaker 1: the tempting option. That's just hard to measure, right, And 167 00:10:45,796 --> 00:10:48,316 Speaker 1: so it can feel less motivating because you just have 168 00:10:48,436 --> 00:10:50,996 Speaker 1: less signal about how much progress you're making. There's less 169 00:10:51,156 --> 00:10:54,116 Speaker 1: to hold onto. That's why, for example, I'm such a 170 00:10:54,156 --> 00:10:56,156 Speaker 1: that I've always I'm always telling everyone in my life 171 00:10:56,916 --> 00:10:59,516 Speaker 1: you could probably cleanness about me. But I'm a superaction 172 00:10:59,556 --> 00:11:02,436 Speaker 1: oriented person and so when the action item is to 173 00:11:02,516 --> 00:11:06,196 Speaker 1: like wait or abstain from things, I really struggle. That's 174 00:11:06,316 --> 00:11:09,516 Speaker 1: that's my weak point. You're not the only one, okay. 175 00:11:09,556 --> 00:11:12,196 Speaker 1: When you're trying to avoid something, you're constantly checking whether 176 00:11:12,236 --> 00:11:17,836 Speaker 1: you're avoiding it and by that bringing it back to mind. Yeah, 177 00:11:17,956 --> 00:11:20,996 Speaker 1: when it comes to setting our goals, one topic that 178 00:11:21,716 --> 00:11:23,916 Speaker 1: I loved reading about in your book was about the 179 00:11:23,956 --> 00:11:27,076 Speaker 1: importance of who is setting the goal. And the reason 180 00:11:27,076 --> 00:11:29,356 Speaker 1: that's particularly consonant with this show a slight change of 181 00:11:29,436 --> 00:11:31,876 Speaker 1: plans is that we're often talking about the role of 182 00:11:31,956 --> 00:11:35,596 Speaker 1: agency right in making choices and projecting things about the 183 00:11:35,596 --> 00:11:39,436 Speaker 1: future and reflecting back on how our changes have affected us. 184 00:11:39,436 --> 00:11:43,076 Speaker 1: And you say that when we own our own targets right, 185 00:11:43,076 --> 00:11:45,916 Speaker 1: we're way better at executing on them and we're more 186 00:11:45,956 --> 00:11:48,116 Speaker 1: likely to stay motivated. And I just, I mean, I 187 00:11:48,156 --> 00:11:50,356 Speaker 1: guess I just love the research on agency in general 188 00:11:50,476 --> 00:11:53,036 Speaker 1: because it just reinforces how much we love being the 189 00:11:53,116 --> 00:11:57,196 Speaker 1: driver's seat, you know, metaphorically, and then when we own 190 00:11:57,236 --> 00:12:01,516 Speaker 1: that process, we're more likely to stay the course. Yes, absolutely, 191 00:12:01,556 --> 00:12:04,556 Speaker 1: and we know that for many years that people really 192 00:12:05,316 --> 00:12:08,916 Speaker 1: need to have control over their lives and need to 193 00:12:08,956 --> 00:12:14,196 Speaker 1: feel that they are in control when negative outcomes happen, 194 00:12:14,316 --> 00:12:17,596 Speaker 1: and we all have negative outcomes. When you feel that 195 00:12:17,676 --> 00:12:21,276 Speaker 1: it's outside of your control, that the world is cruel 196 00:12:21,356 --> 00:12:25,636 Speaker 1: and it's nothing to do with how you behave this 197 00:12:25,756 --> 00:12:30,356 Speaker 1: is much more problematic than when you experience that you 198 00:12:30,436 --> 00:12:35,236 Speaker 1: do have control and nevertheless had the same and negative outcomes. 199 00:12:36,556 --> 00:12:40,596 Speaker 1: On top of it, when other people set the goal 200 00:12:40,716 --> 00:12:45,636 Speaker 1: for you, that brings react and stand. You know, you 201 00:12:45,636 --> 00:12:48,316 Speaker 1: feel like they are controlling you. You want to argue 202 00:12:49,036 --> 00:12:53,676 Speaker 1: with them, you resent them for demanding certain things from you, 203 00:12:53,836 --> 00:12:57,356 Speaker 1: and and owning your goals is not just good for 204 00:12:57,396 --> 00:13:01,436 Speaker 1: you psychologically, it also helps achieving these goals. You're less 205 00:13:01,476 --> 00:13:04,116 Speaker 1: likely to have these two minds. Yeah, I will do 206 00:13:04,156 --> 00:13:06,396 Speaker 1: this maya because you ask me, But I also resent 207 00:13:06,436 --> 00:13:08,236 Speaker 1: the fact that you ask me, and so I'm not 208 00:13:08,276 --> 00:13:11,156 Speaker 1: going to do my best. Yeah, and I like that, 209 00:13:11,236 --> 00:13:13,396 Speaker 1: do you know? Obviously a lot of us don't get 210 00:13:13,436 --> 00:13:16,836 Speaker 1: to control all of the goals that are set for us. Right, 211 00:13:16,876 --> 00:13:20,756 Speaker 1: we have jobs, we have responsibilities. As you mentioned your book, 212 00:13:20,596 --> 00:13:23,596 Speaker 1: we might be working with a coach of some sort, 213 00:13:23,876 --> 00:13:27,076 Speaker 1: but what you've recommended is that at a minimum, that 214 00:13:27,196 --> 00:13:28,876 Speaker 1: person might be able to give us a set of 215 00:13:28,876 --> 00:13:31,756 Speaker 1: options from which to choose. Right. So, if you're working 216 00:13:31,756 --> 00:13:34,596 Speaker 1: with a personal trainer, let's say they can give you Okay, 217 00:13:34,636 --> 00:13:37,076 Speaker 1: you can do you know, the StairMaster or the elliptical, 218 00:13:37,236 --> 00:13:39,516 Speaker 1: or we can lift weights. Right, and it's just the 219 00:13:39,596 --> 00:13:41,756 Speaker 1: idea of Okay, here's the option set that I know 220 00:13:41,796 --> 00:13:44,236 Speaker 1: will help you thrive. But you can still choose, choose 221 00:13:44,236 --> 00:13:49,036 Speaker 1: among those options. Yes, yeah, ask for options, ask for 222 00:13:49,196 --> 00:13:53,556 Speaker 1: alternative ways to pursue your goals so that you you 223 00:13:53,676 --> 00:13:57,676 Speaker 1: do get some sense of control. Yeah, it's making me 224 00:13:57,756 --> 00:14:01,796 Speaker 1: think that I should tell my husband, Jimmy in the future. Okay, Jimmy, 225 00:14:01,996 --> 00:14:06,236 Speaker 1: here's the option set. Unloading the dishwasher, loading the dishwasher, 226 00:14:06,596 --> 00:14:09,516 Speaker 1: taking out the trash, your choice, buddy, But one of 227 00:14:09,556 --> 00:14:11,756 Speaker 1: these is going to be accompanied with more motivation. I 228 00:14:11,836 --> 00:14:15,476 Speaker 1: love it. See you're helping on motivation. You're helping, you know, 229 00:14:15,636 --> 00:14:19,356 Speaker 1: marital relationships. This is fantastic. Yeah, you know, we didn't 230 00:14:19,356 --> 00:14:22,756 Speaker 1: even get to relationship. Ye. Yeah, we haven't gone there yet. Okay, 231 00:14:22,796 --> 00:14:24,516 Speaker 1: So I want to wrap up this part of the 232 00:14:24,516 --> 00:14:28,036 Speaker 1: conversation where we're talking about how to better set goals 233 00:14:28,756 --> 00:14:32,276 Speaker 1: with my favorite recommendation from you, which is to make 234 00:14:32,276 --> 00:14:34,396 Speaker 1: sure that we're setting our goals when we're in a 235 00:14:34,516 --> 00:14:38,836 Speaker 1: similar psychological and physiological state as the one will will 236 00:14:38,956 --> 00:14:42,036 Speaker 1: be in ultimately when we are actually striving for that goal. 237 00:14:43,316 --> 00:14:45,716 Speaker 1: And I mean, this is just this is such smart 238 00:14:45,756 --> 00:14:49,716 Speaker 1: advice because of course our aspirational selves can can race 239 00:14:49,756 --> 00:14:51,516 Speaker 1: away from us and say, oh yeah, I can totally 240 00:14:51,596 --> 00:14:55,316 Speaker 1: imagine eating salad for every single meal, or you know, 241 00:14:55,676 --> 00:14:58,156 Speaker 1: in work, adopting a totally new set of habits. But 242 00:14:58,476 --> 00:15:00,636 Speaker 1: what you said is no, Actually to have a little 243 00:15:00,676 --> 00:15:03,636 Speaker 1: bit of a temperature check and to ground your goals 244 00:15:03,676 --> 00:15:06,156 Speaker 1: in reality. Make sure that you're actually at work when 245 00:15:06,156 --> 00:15:09,436 Speaker 1: you're setting those goals, or if you're thinking about healthier eating, 246 00:15:09,556 --> 00:15:11,756 Speaker 1: make the goals when you are totally fal and it's 247 00:15:11,756 --> 00:15:13,396 Speaker 1: easy to say that you're always going to be able 248 00:15:13,396 --> 00:15:17,836 Speaker 1: to eat the healthier option versus you know, the unhealthy one. Yeah, 249 00:15:17,836 --> 00:15:21,076 Speaker 1: well you summarize it beautifully, so one reason for this 250 00:15:21,236 --> 00:15:24,436 Speaker 1: is the empathy gap is our tendency not to be 251 00:15:24,636 --> 00:15:29,476 Speaker 1: very empathetic to our future selves. And so you know, 252 00:15:29,596 --> 00:15:35,516 Speaker 1: when we plan our career transition, we think that this 253 00:15:35,716 --> 00:15:38,476 Speaker 1: future person that we are going to be is going 254 00:15:38,516 --> 00:15:42,956 Speaker 1: to wake up at six am, start walking at seven am, right, 255 00:15:43,076 --> 00:15:46,396 Speaker 1: and walk until they get dinner and go to sleep, 256 00:15:46,436 --> 00:15:48,796 Speaker 1: and so that person is going to accomplish a lot. 257 00:15:50,076 --> 00:15:52,836 Speaker 1: The problem is that that person is going to be us, 258 00:15:52,916 --> 00:15:57,116 Speaker 1: and so that person will be baled or tired and 259 00:15:57,196 --> 00:16:01,436 Speaker 1: everything else, and the empathy gap, it's just very how 260 00:16:01,596 --> 00:16:04,796 Speaker 1: to overcome. If you set your goals when you're in 261 00:16:04,796 --> 00:16:09,556 Speaker 1: a similar state, that helps you being more empathy addicted 262 00:16:09,716 --> 00:16:11,876 Speaker 1: to this person that will have to follow through with 263 00:16:11,956 --> 00:16:15,996 Speaker 1: the goals and the danger lives and if you don't 264 00:16:16,036 --> 00:16:19,996 Speaker 1: do this and setting unreasonable goals and then basically jumping 265 00:16:20,036 --> 00:16:23,036 Speaker 1: ship when you when you find that it's it's not 266 00:16:23,116 --> 00:16:27,916 Speaker 1: even within the realm of of you know, practical life 267 00:16:27,956 --> 00:16:30,396 Speaker 1: to be able to do those things right. It's so 268 00:16:30,436 --> 00:16:33,916 Speaker 1: the problem with unrealistic goals is that we get discouraged. 269 00:16:34,316 --> 00:16:37,636 Speaker 1: Usually we don't really care about the specific target that 270 00:16:37,756 --> 00:16:39,676 Speaker 1: we set. We care about setting a goal so that 271 00:16:39,756 --> 00:16:42,476 Speaker 1: we are motivated right so that we want to walk hard. 272 00:16:42,516 --> 00:16:46,476 Speaker 1: But if we perceive that the goal is completely unrealistic, 273 00:16:46,556 --> 00:16:49,716 Speaker 1: then we give up and we walk much less than 274 00:16:49,756 --> 00:16:54,476 Speaker 1: if we set a more realistic but motivating goals. So 275 00:16:55,116 --> 00:16:57,596 Speaker 1: the risk is that will just say, ah, that's never 276 00:16:57,636 --> 00:17:00,156 Speaker 1: going to happen, and therefore I should do absolutely nothing 277 00:17:00,196 --> 00:17:05,276 Speaker 1: about it. After the break, I will share how we 278 00:17:05,316 --> 00:17:08,716 Speaker 1: can use science based strategies to sustain our motivation as 279 00:17:08,716 --> 00:17:12,156 Speaker 1: we make progress towards our goals. We'll be right back 280 00:17:12,236 --> 00:17:21,076 Speaker 1: with a slight change of plans. So you've taught us 281 00:17:21,116 --> 00:17:24,236 Speaker 1: a lot about how we can better set our goals, 282 00:17:24,756 --> 00:17:27,076 Speaker 1: and now I'd love to talk about how we can 283 00:17:27,116 --> 00:17:30,476 Speaker 1: sustain our motivation to make progress on those goals. And 284 00:17:30,716 --> 00:17:33,916 Speaker 1: the first step in doing this is just to get 285 00:17:33,996 --> 00:17:36,516 Speaker 1: your foot in the door period right to begin the activity. 286 00:17:36,516 --> 00:17:38,916 Speaker 1: And you've talked about how important that first step is 287 00:17:38,956 --> 00:17:42,156 Speaker 1: because it can lead to almost a disproportionate impact on 288 00:17:42,756 --> 00:17:44,956 Speaker 1: motivation in the longer term. Do you mind sharing more 289 00:17:44,956 --> 00:17:49,956 Speaker 1: about that. The difference between CEO and one steps is huge, 290 00:17:50,996 --> 00:17:54,796 Speaker 1: and that means that people are usually very enthusiastic when 291 00:17:54,836 --> 00:17:59,716 Speaker 1: they start something, and we can help ourselves maintain this 292 00:17:59,836 --> 00:18:03,596 Speaker 1: commitment or you know, I help others and stay committed 293 00:18:03,676 --> 00:18:07,316 Speaker 1: by looking back by notice that we already took the 294 00:18:07,356 --> 00:18:11,116 Speaker 1: first step. Okay, so taking that first step can give 295 00:18:11,196 --> 00:18:13,036 Speaker 1: us the boost we need to stay in the game. 296 00:18:13,676 --> 00:18:15,956 Speaker 1: It signals to our brains that we care about the 297 00:18:15,996 --> 00:18:18,476 Speaker 1: goal and that we've taken at least one step towards 298 00:18:18,516 --> 00:18:22,076 Speaker 1: achieving it. But there's an additional challenge that lies ahead. 299 00:18:22,716 --> 00:18:26,076 Speaker 1: Research shows we often have trouble sustaining this motivation as 300 00:18:26,116 --> 00:18:29,516 Speaker 1: we pursue our goals. Our motivation often flags as we 301 00:18:29,556 --> 00:18:33,316 Speaker 1: approach the halfway point, what eyel It calls the middle problem. 302 00:18:33,996 --> 00:18:36,996 Speaker 1: You have high motivation at the beginning and high motivation 303 00:18:37,076 --> 00:18:40,956 Speaker 1: at the end, but then there is the middle, and 304 00:18:41,076 --> 00:18:47,196 Speaker 1: the middle is when your motivation is usually lower, both 305 00:18:47,236 --> 00:18:49,716 Speaker 1: in terms of doing the thing and also in terms 306 00:18:49,756 --> 00:18:52,716 Speaker 1: of doing it right. Okay, so we see that people 307 00:18:52,836 --> 00:18:56,596 Speaker 1: are less likely to engage, but they're also going to 308 00:18:56,796 --> 00:19:00,916 Speaker 1: relax their performance standards. People are not going to do 309 00:19:01,076 --> 00:19:06,036 Speaker 1: such a good job. Okay. We did the study in 310 00:19:06,036 --> 00:19:08,996 Speaker 1: which we gave people a bunch of shapes on the 311 00:19:09,156 --> 00:19:10,956 Speaker 1: a piece of paper and they had to cut them 312 00:19:11,756 --> 00:19:14,316 Speaker 1: with just a pair of scissors. And like the first 313 00:19:14,316 --> 00:19:16,996 Speaker 1: shape they cut, well, the last shape they cut whale 314 00:19:17,636 --> 00:19:22,516 Speaker 1: in the middle, they were literally cutting corners. I love that. 315 00:19:23,236 --> 00:19:28,116 Speaker 1: So they were literally relaxing their performance standards. You know, 316 00:19:28,196 --> 00:19:32,996 Speaker 1: studies on cheating they found that, you know, if people 317 00:19:33,076 --> 00:19:36,596 Speaker 1: ever cheat, they are not going to do this on 318 00:19:36,676 --> 00:19:39,156 Speaker 1: the first time. Okay, they're going to do it more 319 00:19:39,516 --> 00:19:43,676 Speaker 1: towards the middle, and so we walk less hard in 320 00:19:43,716 --> 00:19:46,996 Speaker 1: the middle. We also don't do such a great job. 321 00:19:49,076 --> 00:19:53,756 Speaker 1: So what can we do to address this dreaded middle problem? 322 00:19:54,076 --> 00:19:57,876 Speaker 1: You can actually get rid of middles yet exist. Yeah, 323 00:19:58,036 --> 00:20:01,836 Speaker 1: no middles. No, Well, we need to have middles, but 324 00:20:01,916 --> 00:20:06,116 Speaker 1: we can keep them short. Either. An annual goal might 325 00:20:06,236 --> 00:20:11,396 Speaker 1: be a monthly goal. So instead of saving money this year, 326 00:20:11,396 --> 00:20:14,676 Speaker 1: I think about saving money this month. An exercising goal 327 00:20:14,716 --> 00:20:17,836 Speaker 1: could be a weekly exercising goal. And if you if 328 00:20:17,836 --> 00:20:21,436 Speaker 1: you might have a weekly exercising goal, I'm pretty sure 329 00:20:21,476 --> 00:20:24,876 Speaker 1: that you will have another weekly exercising goal next week. Right, 330 00:20:25,116 --> 00:20:28,956 Speaker 1: you're not going to really get to the end of 331 00:20:28,996 --> 00:20:33,636 Speaker 1: this goal. But by defining it more nearly, by setting 332 00:20:33,676 --> 00:20:37,116 Speaker 1: sub goals, we can fight these middles. We can also 333 00:20:37,196 --> 00:20:43,796 Speaker 1: remind ourselves that our identity is Let's take a more identity, 334 00:20:43,916 --> 00:20:47,156 Speaker 1: remind us thinking that whatever we do reflect on who 335 00:20:47,156 --> 00:20:52,076 Speaker 1: we are as a person is helping us do a 336 00:20:52,116 --> 00:20:56,436 Speaker 1: good job. Is there an example a lot of you, 337 00:20:56,436 --> 00:20:59,076 Speaker 1: you know, shortening the middle or refraining things in your 338 00:20:59,116 --> 00:21:02,836 Speaker 1: life to try to get around the middle problem. Well, 339 00:21:02,876 --> 00:21:07,916 Speaker 1: I do try not to think about the full time 340 00:21:07,996 --> 00:21:10,116 Speaker 1: in which I will see you a goal. So every 341 00:21:10,156 --> 00:21:14,676 Speaker 1: research project it takes years, but I really try to 342 00:21:14,716 --> 00:21:18,076 Speaker 1: think about what I'm going to do this quarter. So 343 00:21:18,356 --> 00:21:22,956 Speaker 1: the middle is really short. And every quarter we start 344 00:21:23,076 --> 00:21:26,796 Speaker 1: in my lab by just telling each other what are 345 00:21:26,796 --> 00:21:29,596 Speaker 1: the goals that we are going to pursue for this 346 00:21:29,676 --> 00:21:33,316 Speaker 1: period of time and what needs to be completed. Okay, 347 00:21:33,356 --> 00:21:36,316 Speaker 1: So when it comes to when it comes to sustaining 348 00:21:36,356 --> 00:21:40,636 Speaker 1: our motivation, and obvious natural place for us to dive 349 00:21:40,676 --> 00:21:44,836 Speaker 1: in is to talk about one driver or motivation, which 350 00:21:44,916 --> 00:21:49,356 Speaker 1: is incentives. Right. Yes, I think about incentives as mini goals. Okay. 351 00:21:49,916 --> 00:21:53,396 Speaker 1: What we find is that it's really critical to incentivize 352 00:21:53,436 --> 00:21:57,236 Speaker 1: the white thing. Okay, so not a proxy, not something 353 00:21:57,276 --> 00:22:01,556 Speaker 1: that is just easy to measure. But do you mind 354 00:22:01,596 --> 00:22:05,236 Speaker 1: getting us an example of what it means to reward 355 00:22:05,476 --> 00:22:10,396 Speaker 1: the quote right thing? Yes, what does it mean to 356 00:22:10,436 --> 00:22:15,316 Speaker 1: reward the right thing. Often we reward what is easy 357 00:22:15,356 --> 00:22:18,196 Speaker 1: to measure. Okay, so we might reward ourselves for how 358 00:22:18,276 --> 00:22:21,716 Speaker 1: many hours we set in front of our computer, but 359 00:22:22,276 --> 00:22:26,436 Speaker 1: not really on whether we were productive, whether we did 360 00:22:26,476 --> 00:22:31,276 Speaker 1: work that gets us somewhere. Maybe we were just answering 361 00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:33,876 Speaker 1: emails and kind of killing time, but we did work 362 00:22:33,956 --> 00:22:41,276 Speaker 1: for many hours. When we incentivize others, we sometimes incentivize 363 00:22:41,316 --> 00:22:44,796 Speaker 1: them for doing things very quickly, but really we should 364 00:22:44,836 --> 00:22:48,876 Speaker 1: care more about the quality. Another piece of advice eile 365 00:22:48,956 --> 00:22:51,876 Speaker 1: It has when it comes to staying motivated is sometimes 366 00:22:51,916 --> 00:22:55,636 Speaker 1: turn to ourselves for advice. In a study eile It ran, 367 00:22:55,876 --> 00:22:59,436 Speaker 1: she identified people who were struggling to achieve a specific goal. 368 00:23:00,316 --> 00:23:02,756 Speaker 1: They were then asked to share their own advice for 369 00:23:02,836 --> 00:23:05,756 Speaker 1: how to reach that goal, or they were given advice 370 00:23:05,876 --> 00:23:09,596 Speaker 1: from an expert, and then researchers measured had these two 371 00:23:09,636 --> 00:23:13,556 Speaker 1: different sources of advice affected motivation levels, and what they 372 00:23:13,596 --> 00:23:18,116 Speaker 1: found was really surprising. So we asked unemployed people to 373 00:23:18,156 --> 00:23:20,196 Speaker 1: give advice on how to get a job. We ask 374 00:23:20,316 --> 00:23:22,716 Speaker 1: people who said that they are struggling with being angry 375 00:23:22,716 --> 00:23:25,756 Speaker 1: to give advice on how to control you anger. People 376 00:23:25,796 --> 00:23:29,196 Speaker 1: were more motivated by their own advice than by the 377 00:23:29,356 --> 00:23:33,396 Speaker 1: advice that we have given them, which with though was 378 00:23:33,556 --> 00:23:38,116 Speaker 1: really interesting because it suggested when when you just increase 379 00:23:38,196 --> 00:23:41,356 Speaker 1: your confidence, So when you just remind yourself of how 380 00:23:41,436 --> 00:23:44,236 Speaker 1: much you know, okay, like you remind yourself that you're 381 00:23:44,276 --> 00:23:48,876 Speaker 1: the expert and get confident as a result, then you 382 00:23:48,916 --> 00:23:52,556 Speaker 1: are motivated to do something about it. Yeah, can we 383 00:23:52,596 --> 00:23:54,316 Speaker 1: can we take in a little bit more into the 384 00:23:54,396 --> 00:23:58,156 Speaker 1: mechanism that's at play here. I was in particular interested 385 00:23:58,196 --> 00:24:02,036 Speaker 1: in people who are struggling. So the people who when 386 00:24:02,076 --> 00:24:05,556 Speaker 1: I asked them to give advice, they've started by saying, 387 00:24:05,836 --> 00:24:08,116 Speaker 1: why would you ask me? Like what do I know? 388 00:24:09,996 --> 00:24:13,476 Speaker 1: Obviously I'm like, I don't know what they said? Why 389 00:24:13,476 --> 00:24:16,396 Speaker 1: would you ask me about dieting? And you know, I 390 00:24:16,436 --> 00:24:18,876 Speaker 1: didn't have a conversation with most of them. But the 391 00:24:18,956 --> 00:24:21,476 Speaker 1: people that I didn't have a conversation with, I was saying, 392 00:24:21,516 --> 00:24:24,236 Speaker 1: you are you kidding me? Like you know more than 393 00:24:24,316 --> 00:24:27,076 Speaker 1: other people because you were struggling with this, Okay, like 394 00:24:27,516 --> 00:24:31,396 Speaker 1: you've learned. You've been doing it now for a while. 395 00:24:31,756 --> 00:24:35,356 Speaker 1: You try things and maybe they didn't work, and so 396 00:24:35,716 --> 00:24:38,436 Speaker 1: you learn, Okay, some things did work for you. You 397 00:24:38,596 --> 00:24:42,636 Speaker 1: learn from those too. And it turned out that when 398 00:24:42,636 --> 00:24:46,076 Speaker 1: people are willing to go beyond this first reaction of 399 00:24:46,876 --> 00:24:49,476 Speaker 1: what do I know? Okay, obviously I'm not doing it 400 00:24:49,636 --> 00:24:53,276 Speaker 1: very well, they realize that they have a lot of knowledge. 401 00:24:54,356 --> 00:24:57,676 Speaker 1: This memory search brings to mind the things that they 402 00:24:57,716 --> 00:25:00,556 Speaker 1: do know. Often it brings to mind the lessons that 403 00:25:00,636 --> 00:25:04,276 Speaker 1: they learn from failures. But there is such an amazing 404 00:25:05,036 --> 00:25:07,796 Speaker 1: knowledge that comes from trying something and realizing that it 405 00:25:07,876 --> 00:25:12,396 Speaker 1: doesn't work. However, you need to think hard and identify 406 00:25:12,476 --> 00:25:16,676 Speaker 1: these lessons. So they find these lessons. And then the 407 00:25:16,756 --> 00:25:20,036 Speaker 1: last thing that it does is just that build a 408 00:25:20,196 --> 00:25:23,356 Speaker 1: confidence because hey, I ask you for advice, so I 409 00:25:23,796 --> 00:25:26,996 Speaker 1: think that you are the expert you know, and when 410 00:25:27,036 --> 00:25:29,836 Speaker 1: someone tells you that you are the expert, you feel 411 00:25:29,876 --> 00:25:35,236 Speaker 1: like you know a lot. Yeah. So, so one antagonist 412 00:25:35,916 --> 00:25:40,596 Speaker 1: for sustaining motivation, UM, as we're trying to pursue our 413 00:25:40,636 --> 00:25:45,076 Speaker 1: goals is failure. Right are the setbacks that we face? 414 00:25:45,316 --> 00:25:49,676 Speaker 1: And how can we think differently about about failure or 415 00:25:49,996 --> 00:25:52,236 Speaker 1: learn from failure so that we can we can stay 416 00:25:52,236 --> 00:25:54,956 Speaker 1: the course. I'm so glad that you ask, because I 417 00:25:54,996 --> 00:25:58,756 Speaker 1: think that we both our passion is in learning from 418 00:25:58,836 --> 00:26:02,956 Speaker 1: a failure. Might try Son told media the day that 419 00:26:03,076 --> 00:26:07,796 Speaker 1: I'm the expert on failure, and I love that. Hey 420 00:26:07,876 --> 00:26:09,796 Speaker 1: that's a great that's a good cop, I thought. So 421 00:26:10,156 --> 00:26:13,756 Speaker 1: it's then when you realize that his mother knows something 422 00:26:13,796 --> 00:26:20,836 Speaker 1: about failing. So yeah, so it's really hard to learn 423 00:26:20,876 --> 00:26:25,756 Speaker 1: from failure. It's unintuitive, and it's just how do to 424 00:26:25,996 --> 00:26:28,916 Speaker 1: learn what to do from what not to do? It's actually, 425 00:26:28,996 --> 00:26:31,316 Speaker 1: it turns out that it's easier to learn from other 426 00:26:31,396 --> 00:26:35,316 Speaker 1: people's failures. So in our task where we just have 427 00:26:35,516 --> 00:26:38,596 Speaker 1: like the really usually just two options, there is a 428 00:26:38,596 --> 00:26:42,156 Speaker 1: correct answer and there though it's an incorrect answer, And 429 00:26:42,196 --> 00:26:45,276 Speaker 1: if you look at someone else choosing the incorrect answer, 430 00:26:45,436 --> 00:26:48,636 Speaker 1: you do learn the correct answer more than if you 431 00:26:48,636 --> 00:26:53,236 Speaker 1: yourself guess the incorrect answer. Is that because emotion and 432 00:26:53,356 --> 00:26:58,436 Speaker 1: ego aren't clouding the situation exactly, okay, exactly because if 433 00:26:58,476 --> 00:27:02,236 Speaker 1: you chose the wrong answer or you're upset, yeah, just 434 00:27:02,436 --> 00:27:05,156 Speaker 1: busy with managing your emotions. When you look at me 435 00:27:05,396 --> 00:27:09,516 Speaker 1: choosing the wrong answer, you're not upset, You're just learning. Okay. 436 00:27:10,356 --> 00:27:12,516 Speaker 1: Of course, the problem is that we don't tend to 437 00:27:12,556 --> 00:27:14,876 Speaker 1: share our failure with other people, so you might not 438 00:27:15,036 --> 00:27:17,756 Speaker 1: know about all the ways in which I failed because 439 00:27:17,756 --> 00:27:22,036 Speaker 1: I'm not telling you about it. Yeah, that's your chance 440 00:27:22,396 --> 00:27:25,476 Speaker 1: mail it, have the whole platform. I'm just kidding. I'm 441 00:27:25,476 --> 00:27:28,236 Speaker 1: not gonna make you an unfailure lane. No, but I 442 00:27:28,276 --> 00:27:29,996 Speaker 1: love that, And it also shows that you know, when 443 00:27:30,036 --> 00:27:32,716 Speaker 1: we when we are when we structure our lives around 444 00:27:33,196 --> 00:27:36,796 Speaker 1: trying to achieve goals with others, it does create an 445 00:27:36,796 --> 00:27:40,796 Speaker 1: open space for us to share failures and successes because 446 00:27:41,196 --> 00:27:44,476 Speaker 1: you're getting exposure to other people's journeys day in and 447 00:27:44,556 --> 00:27:46,836 Speaker 1: day out. Right. I mean, if I have a running 448 00:27:46,836 --> 00:27:49,796 Speaker 1: buddy in the very theoretical world in which I ran 449 00:27:50,196 --> 00:27:52,756 Speaker 1: aail it um, you know, I might see the days 450 00:27:52,796 --> 00:27:54,916 Speaker 1: that they don't show up for running because they're having 451 00:27:54,916 --> 00:27:57,556 Speaker 1: low motivation, or you know, you pull back the curtain 452 00:27:57,596 --> 00:28:00,156 Speaker 1: and you get the unglamorous look into how other people 453 00:28:00,276 --> 00:28:03,076 Speaker 1: are working to perceive their goals. I agree, and I 454 00:28:03,116 --> 00:28:06,596 Speaker 1: would say that people do not share their failures, so 455 00:28:06,716 --> 00:28:11,196 Speaker 1: it's not easy to get it from them, like we 456 00:28:12,996 --> 00:28:14,796 Speaker 1: we looked at it in many studies. To give you 457 00:28:14,876 --> 00:28:17,796 Speaker 1: an example, we asked teachers to tell us one success 458 00:28:17,876 --> 00:28:22,716 Speaker 1: doe in one fellow story and then anonymously share with 459 00:28:22,756 --> 00:28:26,356 Speaker 1: another teacher the one of these stories Okay, so the 460 00:28:26,396 --> 00:28:29,996 Speaker 1: story that you think has a better lesson. Okay, almost 461 00:28:30,036 --> 00:28:34,916 Speaker 1: everyone share the success story. Yeah, wouldn't it be so 462 00:28:34,956 --> 00:28:37,756 Speaker 1: great if the last three lines of your CV were 463 00:28:37,796 --> 00:28:40,316 Speaker 1: all the things that you tried and sucked at or 464 00:28:40,356 --> 00:28:43,116 Speaker 1: failed at. Right, So it's like, ah, here's the highlights reel. 465 00:28:43,676 --> 00:28:46,556 Speaker 1: But Baya never became the Bollywood dancer that she wanted 466 00:28:46,556 --> 00:28:48,636 Speaker 1: to become when she was in high school. She never 467 00:28:48,716 --> 00:28:51,276 Speaker 1: became the singer songwriter that she wanted to become when 468 00:28:51,316 --> 00:28:53,756 Speaker 1: she was in college, right, because she had no aptitude 469 00:28:53,996 --> 00:28:56,756 Speaker 1: for singing. And so it would be really wonderful to 470 00:28:56,836 --> 00:29:00,036 Speaker 1: hear a slightly more unfiltered story from people about the 471 00:29:00,076 --> 00:29:01,876 Speaker 1: broad range of things they've tried in their life and 472 00:29:01,916 --> 00:29:06,196 Speaker 1: then have not succeeded at. Cannot agree more. You know 473 00:29:06,276 --> 00:29:10,796 Speaker 1: how everybody got accepted to their amazing college. I know, 474 00:29:11,396 --> 00:29:14,436 Speaker 1: it's remarkable. We're at one hundred percent hit rate. Yeah, 475 00:29:14,636 --> 00:29:16,716 Speaker 1: despite the fact that all these colleges tell us that 476 00:29:16,796 --> 00:29:19,996 Speaker 1: they reject most candidates. You know, no one was ever 477 00:29:20,116 --> 00:29:23,636 Speaker 1: rejected that I know. I've never heard of someone rejected 478 00:29:23,636 --> 00:29:27,396 Speaker 1: from college. Absolutely, not myself included. Because people are so 479 00:29:27,516 --> 00:29:30,836 Speaker 1: hesitant to share their failures with one another, and because 480 00:29:30,876 --> 00:29:33,076 Speaker 1: I let knows there's so much we can learn from 481 00:29:33,116 --> 00:29:35,996 Speaker 1: doing so, she's been on a mission to help encourage 482 00:29:36,036 --> 00:29:39,476 Speaker 1: this behavior. As we wrapped up our conversation, she shared 483 00:29:39,516 --> 00:29:41,796 Speaker 1: that someone reached out to her about an event where 484 00:29:41,836 --> 00:29:45,716 Speaker 1: failure takes center stage. People are encouraged to shout from 485 00:29:45,716 --> 00:29:48,716 Speaker 1: the rooftops about all the times they didn't get it right. 486 00:29:49,516 --> 00:29:53,516 Speaker 1: People are talking about projects that they tried and failed, 487 00:29:53,636 --> 00:29:56,556 Speaker 1: or just personal failures, just like I'm going on a 488 00:29:56,636 --> 00:30:01,396 Speaker 1: stage in front of people and talking about what went 489 00:30:01,476 --> 00:30:06,116 Speaker 1: wrong and trying to understand what the lesson in the 490 00:30:06,156 --> 00:30:10,276 Speaker 1: person started this try and for which me and I 491 00:30:10,436 --> 00:30:13,636 Speaker 1: told me that my research was part of the inspiration 492 00:30:13,796 --> 00:30:39,556 Speaker 1: for these nights, and I felt very good about that. Hey, 493 00:30:39,556 --> 00:30:43,436 Speaker 1: thanks for listening. On next week's episode, our season finale, 494 00:30:43,796 --> 00:30:47,116 Speaker 1: we hear the story of a Theronos whistleblower, Erica Chung. 495 00:30:48,076 --> 00:30:51,116 Speaker 1: Erica knew something was very wrong at the company, and 496 00:30:51,236 --> 00:30:53,556 Speaker 1: even though she had a lot to lose by speaking out, 497 00:30:53,876 --> 00:30:58,516 Speaker 1: she saw no other option. Honestly, the idea of knowing 498 00:30:58,676 --> 00:31:02,636 Speaker 1: what I knew and having not done anything, and knowing 499 00:31:02,716 --> 00:31:05,996 Speaker 1: that there was something that I could have done about it, 500 00:31:06,036 --> 00:31:08,956 Speaker 1: and I didn't do anything like that's the real prison. 501 00:31:09,316 --> 00:31:21,676 Speaker 1: That's the real purgatory. A Slight Change of Plans is 502 00:31:21,716 --> 00:31:25,276 Speaker 1: created written an executive produce by me Maya Shunker. The 503 00:31:25,356 --> 00:31:29,756 Speaker 1: Slight Change Family includes Tyler Green our senior producer, Emily Rostak, 504 00:31:29,836 --> 00:31:33,196 Speaker 1: our producer and fact checker, Jan Guera, our senior editor, 505 00:31:33,516 --> 00:31:37,716 Speaker 1: Ben Tolliday, our sound engineer, and Mia LaBelle our executive producer. 506 00:31:38,396 --> 00:31:41,236 Speaker 1: Louis Skara wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith helped 507 00:31:41,276 --> 00:31:44,196 Speaker 1: arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a 508 00:31:44,196 --> 00:31:47,476 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. So big thanks to everyone there, 509 00:31:47,916 --> 00:31:53,116 Speaker 1: including Nicolemrano, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, Heather Fame and Carly Nigliori, 510 00:31:53,756 --> 00:31:56,796 Speaker 1: and of course of very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 511 00:31:57,396 --> 00:31:59,836 Speaker 1: You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram 512 00:31:59,876 --> 00:32:11,276 Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Schunker. How I became the expert of failure. 513 00:32:11,396 --> 00:32:14,716 Speaker 1: So my son was struggling with his video game like 514 00:32:15,196 --> 00:32:19,436 Speaker 1: he had like tears in his eyes. He was super frustrated. 515 00:32:19,556 --> 00:32:21,596 Speaker 1: He felt like the challenge that he will never be 516 00:32:21,636 --> 00:32:23,556 Speaker 1: able to to do. And then he asked that I 517 00:32:23,556 --> 00:32:25,556 Speaker 1: will come and sit next to him, and my daughter 518 00:32:25,676 --> 00:32:27,276 Speaker 1: was saying Wow, but I sit next to you, I 519 00:32:27,276 --> 00:32:30,836 Speaker 1: actually know something about video games, like mom doesn't know anything. 520 00:32:31,356 --> 00:32:34,836 Speaker 1: And he said that despite the fact that I am 521 00:32:34,836 --> 00:32:37,396 Speaker 1: not very useful in terms of the knowledge that I 522 00:32:37,476 --> 00:32:40,236 Speaker 1: have about video games, I'm the expert on failure and 523 00:32:40,316 --> 00:32:43,116 Speaker 1: he really prefers to fail next to me because I 524 00:32:43,116 --> 00:32:44,396 Speaker 1: will make him feel good.