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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: works some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm great, Paul, how about you?

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Speaker 3: I am doing good. Do I hear construction sounds in

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Speaker 3: the background? What's going on?

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Speaker 1: Listen?

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Speaker 2: If I'm in here with you, you do not hear

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Speaker 2: construction sounds. Because I am the construction crew in this

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Speaker 2: project of mine. It's just me and well, my dad,

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Speaker 2: but he doesn't do anything when I'm not here. We

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Speaker 2: are building a cottage. It's a shed, it's a she shed,

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Speaker 2: but it's a cottage in my backyard. I have kind

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Speaker 2: of a wooded area in my backyard and I have

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Speaker 2: a little Cotage's going to be one hundred and twenty

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Speaker 2: square feet and it'll be where you know, I do

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Speaker 2: some taping and stuff with you, and I do some

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Speaker 2: book writing with me. But I'm doing it in Victorian style,

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Speaker 2: nineteenth century cottage.

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Speaker 3: Well there's you know, that seems appropriate, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we're not gonna have a chamber pot or anything,

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Speaker 2: but it's definitely it's going to be decked out. I'm

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Speaker 2: in love at that time period. I love the eighteen hundred.

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Speaker 2: So I've been collecting different antiques. I just picked up

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Speaker 2: a pair of chairs, Victorian style chairs, king and Queen

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Speaker 2: style from like a Facebook marketplace for one hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty bucks for this pair. And they're beautiful. They're beautiful, beautiful.

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Speaker 2: They're red, deep red, and I'm very excited. I've always

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Speaker 2: thought I should sit in a king or a queen chair,

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Speaker 2: and now my dream has become a reality.

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Speaker 3: Well, now that's all regarding interior design. I'm kind of

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Speaker 3: interested in the construction. Are you swinging your own hammer?

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Speaker 2: I am, I'm swinging. Well, it's probably more going to

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Speaker 2: be like a Neil gun.

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Speaker 3: But it's okay about that still that's impressive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I get to do so.

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Speaker 2: My dad has done construction for a large part of

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Speaker 2: his life and so he's gonna really help me get

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Speaker 2: it up. And we're setting the foundation now and figuring

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Speaker 2: all of that out kind of the peer and being foundation.

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Speaker 2: We have a good section in our backyard that is

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Speaker 2: very deceiving. It's just trees, cedar trees, oak trees, elm

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Speaker 2: trees that are beautiful, and so you can't really tell

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Speaker 2: how deep our backyard is, but it's very deep, and

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Speaker 2: it's just a I call it the forest or the

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Speaker 2: woods back there. So I thought, I'm going to make

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Speaker 2: this cottage and I have a faux fireplace, and I'm

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Speaker 2: going to have a He's going to build me a

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Speaker 2: faux chimney, a chimney because of course I have to

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Speaker 2: have a chimney. And I'm doing all this Paul, because man,

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Speaker 2: I love my kids, but they are bugging me a

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Speaker 2: lot when I'm trying to get writing done, and they,

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Speaker 2: you know, they're in constantly sort of in my room,

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Speaker 2: which is fine, that's not a problem, but it can

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Speaker 2: be kind of, you know, distracting when I'm trying to write.

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Speaker 2: So I said to my kiddos. I'm creative making this cottage,

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Speaker 2: and it's going to be in the forest. It's, you know,

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Speaker 2: two or three minute walk back there. And one of

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Speaker 2: my girls said, do you really think putting a cottage

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Speaker 2: in the backyard is going to stop us from coming

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Speaker 2: out there and bugging you to go for a drive

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Speaker 2: or whatever.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just to see like a TikTok dance they did.

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Speaker 1: And she said, do you really think that's gonna stop us?

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Speaker 1: I said, I guess suppose not. I don't think so.

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Speaker 3: I guess I'm having visions of certain fairy tales like

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Speaker 3: Little Red riding Hood or what is it, Handsel and.

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Speaker 1: Cradle, Cansel and Gretel.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I should tell them that story and I'll be

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Speaker 2: like the woman with the gingerbread house. Yeah, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to have to scare them a little bit. I told

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Speaker 2: them that they were going to need to spend the

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Speaker 2: night out there because the forest gets so dark at night,

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Speaker 2: and we have like huge owls that live in it,

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Speaker 2: and I'm sure all kinds of critters that our dogs

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Speaker 2: scare away during the day but not at night, so

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Speaker 2: we'll see. I think one good scare will send them

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Speaker 2: back in. But I'm prepping. I'm getting it ready. It'll

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Speaker 2: be done before Halloween, which is great. But I'm excited

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Speaker 2: just because that eighteen hundreds is just where my heart

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Speaker 2: is and I've never been able to really have a

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Speaker 2: space of my own to be able to create it. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, the men, the vanity drawings I showed you

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Speaker 2: my I found of my dad.

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Speaker 1: My dad had one, and I have like fifteen.

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Speaker 2: They're going to go up, okay on the walls, and

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Speaker 2: I'm excited about it. It's well, I have a Lionel

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Speaker 2: train set that I'm excited to put up on some shelves.

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Speaker 2: We're going to bookshelves, and it's going to feel like

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Speaker 2: a cottage. So hopefully at some point our listeners are

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Speaker 2: actually going to be able to check it out, you know,

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Speaker 2: and see where I'm going to be taping from from

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Speaker 2: now on. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: You know, I've got my man cave and you've got

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Speaker 3: your woman's retreat out there. That's going to be cool.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to have the globe of gas light and

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Speaker 2: you have the glow of your aquarium.

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Speaker 3: That's right there, you go.

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Speaker 1: It's the major parts of our life. I think that's important.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I told you. I'm an atmosphere kind

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Speaker 1: of person, so that's where I head.

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Speaker 2: Is that.

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Speaker 1: So I'm very excited.

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Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to it, just for your sake.

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Speaker 1: Thank it for my sanity.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, Like I said, I adore my kids and

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Speaker 2: they support what I do. They support my writing, but

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Speaker 2: they just want to be with me all the time,

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Speaker 2: and I love that.

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Speaker 1: I thought that as.

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Speaker 2: Teenagers they were not going to be with me all

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Speaker 2: all the time, but they are as of right now.

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Speaker 2: So I'm gonna be grateful for that. But at the

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Speaker 2: same time, mama does need to have a cottage for sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Well, this story that I'm getting ready to tell you

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Speaker 2: is wild. This is a big case. Everybody has asked

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Speaker 2: us to do this case. So this is a big case.

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Speaker 1: We're making it a double Okay, good, okay good. I

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Speaker 1: wish this were set in the eighteen hundreds. It's not.

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Speaker 2: It's nineteen twenty nine, gritty Detroit, Michigan, which is a

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Speaker 2: great place to be. And so you know, I need

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Speaker 2: you to help me sort out a really really confusing,

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Speaker 2: wacky scene with this story.

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Speaker 3: All right, I'm looking forward to it.

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Speaker 2: I need to start out with a trigger warning. This

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Speaker 2: is definitely a violent story, even more I think than usual.

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Speaker 2: But this is a story that I have had probably

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Speaker 2: no less than ten listeners over the last four years

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Speaker 2: email me about because in Detroit it's pretty well known.

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Speaker 2: It's the Saint alban Street massacre, and it's a very

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Speaker 2: dramatic story, and it's part of this area's history. Nineteen

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Speaker 2: twenty nine, for me, is very recent compared to what

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Speaker 2: we usually talk about. So this will be one that's

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Speaker 2: going to be hard to untangle, but I think you're

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Speaker 2: going to enjoy talking about it.

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Speaker 3: And obviously this is set during the Great Depression, right.

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Speaker 1: Right before Oh okay.

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Speaker 2: We're kind of getting into it, but it is happening

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Speaker 2: literally months before Black Thursday happens, which is the stock

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Speaker 2: market crash. I mean, the country's already starting to feel it,

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Speaker 2: but the stock market crash is the thing that really

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Speaker 2: triggers a lot of what happens afterward with the Great Depression.

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Speaker 2: And so this is right before this happens.

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Speaker 1: Got it in Detroit.

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Speaker 2: So if I were to label this story in a

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Speaker 2: neat little glass jar and put a label on it,

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Speaker 2: I would call this Things are not always as they seem.

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Speaker 3: This is that story so I can expect to be

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Speaker 3: misled at some point during the story.

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Speaker 1: Not by me.

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Speaker 3: You're going to march me down the wrong path. I

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Speaker 3: can tell it already.

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Speaker 2: So it is nineteen twenty nine, Detroit, Michigan. I don't

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Speaker 2: know a ton about Detroit. I've never been to Detroit.

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Speaker 2: Have you done a trip to Detroit before?

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Speaker 1: I bet you have.

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Speaker 3: You know, I've only passed through the airport during my

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Speaker 3: book tour, so I have never personally visited Detroit. I've watched,

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Speaker 3: you know, some historic things about the auto industry in Detroit,

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Speaker 3: you know, and then of course how things have changed

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Speaker 3: dramatically over the decades in that city. But I imagine

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Speaker 3: in nineteen twenty nine, Ford and some of these other

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Speaker 3: automakers are probably this is a booming business in Detroit.

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Speaker 1: YEP.

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Speaker 2: The auto industry has provided quite a lot of decent

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Speaker 2: paying jobs, which is something that's very appreciated, especially right

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Speaker 2: before the Great Depression really comes down. It's a draw

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Speaker 2: for a lot of people who want better economic opportunities,

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Speaker 2: and that includes immigrants. So in the early twentieth century

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Speaker 2: there was a very large population that came from Poland

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Speaker 2: and Germany and Russia and Italy, and today we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about a family, the patriarch who was born

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Speaker 2: in Italy and he comes to the United States around

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Speaker 2: the turn of the century. So his name is Bennie Evangelista,

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Speaker 2: and he was just nineteen years old when he came

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Speaker 2: to the United States, and he eventually shortens his name

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Speaker 2: to Evangelist. So that's what we're going to kind of

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Speaker 2: go with, Bennie Evangelist. He spent a chunk of his

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Speaker 2: time in Philadelphia, but by nineteen twenty nine, which is

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Speaker 2: when we're really getting into the story, he's in Michigan.

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Speaker 2: And then he moves to Detroit in the twenties, early

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Speaker 2: twenties because of the reputation of being an economic hot spot,

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Speaker 2: and again three months before the big stock market crash

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Speaker 2: in the beginning of the Great Depression. So let me

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Speaker 2: tell you who is in this house which is our

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Speaker 2: crime scene. It is Bennie. He's forty four and he

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Speaker 2: has made a small fortune in Detroit in the real

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Speaker 2: estate business. He's very successful. He has a business partner

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Speaker 2: well known, you know, kind of a well known person

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Speaker 2: in the community. He's married to a woman named Santina.

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Speaker 2: She's thirty eight and there's a daughter, Angeline who's seven,

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Speaker 2: a daughter Margaret, who's five, another one who is named Jane.

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Speaker 1: And she's four.

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Speaker 2: And then they have a boy who is eighteen months

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Speaker 2: named Mario. I wonder if Benny I see this, listen.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if Bennie just said, we're gonna keep going

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Speaker 2: till we get a boy, because he has three girls.

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Speaker 1: And then he ends up with a boy. But who knows.

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Speaker 2: They had been recently married, and the family doctor is

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Speaker 2: not quite sure about the origin of where the kids

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Speaker 2: are coming from.

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Speaker 1: There's a little bit of speculation.

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Speaker 2: That she, you know, she had been married before, whether

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Speaker 2: or not these were her kids from a previous marriage,

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Speaker 2: or whether or not these were Benny's kids. But at

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Speaker 2: least Mario was so we have these kids. He seems

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Speaker 2: like a great dad. She seems like a good mom.

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Speaker 2: They live in a nice sized two story house on

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Speaker 2: Saint Auban Street near mac Avenue, which is in Detroit's

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Speaker 2: Eastern Market neighborhood. And let me tell you a little bit.

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Speaker 2: I know I'm whipping through all this information, but let

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Speaker 2: me tell you a little bit about the house. It's,

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Speaker 2: like I said, a pretty nice sized house, five rooms

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Speaker 2: in a bathroom on the upper level. There's two front

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Speaker 2: rooms upstairs that are bedrooms that are connected by a door,

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Speaker 2: and then the back three rooms are unused and not

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Speaker 2: really furnished. And then they have four rooms on the

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Speaker 2: lower floor. You know, this is where Benny offices with

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Speaker 2: his real estate business. And there is also an attic

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Speaker 2: and a basement, so they have a big amount of space.

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Speaker 2: But they've got four kids. So you've got, you know,

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Speaker 2: a husband and a wife who in their four children,

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Speaker 2: who are all small. I mean the oldest kid is seven,

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Speaker 2: Angelina's seven.

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Speaker 1: So you ready to hear more? Do you have any questions?

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Speaker 3: No, you know, I'm just now looking where Saint Aubin

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Speaker 3: Street is located in Detroit. It looks like it's just

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Speaker 3: a couple of blocks north of the Detroit River. And

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Speaker 3: you mentioned Mac Street.

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Speaker 2: Is that right, Yes, near Mack Street, and that's in

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Speaker 2: the Eastern Market neighborhood.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm seeing it. Obviously, Detroit today has a

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Speaker 3: major freeway system that wasn't present in nineteen twenty nine.

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Speaker 3: But it does appear that this Saint Aubin's Street is

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Speaker 3: somewhat surrounded by some industrial areas. Okay, I'm seeing like

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Speaker 3: the Rivertown warehouse district. It's an interesting location. I just

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Speaker 3: you know, of course, I always look at the geography

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Speaker 3: as I assess cases, and I'm trying to just get

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Speaker 3: a sense there's some harbors or some parks. Okay, I've

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Speaker 3: got a better feel.

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Speaker 1: Got a good feel. Okay.

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Speaker 2: I like it when you do that, because the research

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Speaker 2: that you like, do you immediately like to hop on.

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Speaker 2: We've had some stories where it's been pretty key, Like

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Speaker 2: remember the story about the man who was from Cuba

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Speaker 2: but purported to be from China and dead in New

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Speaker 2: York and you were able to look at the street

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Speaker 2: and even currently today and you could tell how close

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Speaker 2: a witness when we say the witness was across the street,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going, that's bs, there's no way this witness

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Speaker 2: is going to have the kind of a detail. And

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Speaker 2: then you said, now look at the street. It's a

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Speaker 2: very narrow street and you're going to be able to

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Speaker 2: see whatever you want from across the street. I like

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Speaker 2: that you immediately kind of go to that.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: It really is part of my process, you know, even

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Speaker 3: with cases that I've worked that are decades old and

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Speaker 3: maybe the location of the crime has changed considerably, but

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Speaker 3: the space is still there and sometimes it can be

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Speaker 3: very informative.

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Speaker 1: Well, I have a photo of the house, but it's

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Speaker 1: more of like because this is a very dramatic story.

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Speaker 1: It's more of the crowd.

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Speaker 2: And you can see the house, but it'll give you

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Speaker 2: a better idea of how residential it is. And then

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Speaker 2: I have a photo of the family, So let me

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Speaker 2: show you. There is the evangelist family. So there's been

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Speaker 2: in the upper left hand corner and his wife and

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Speaker 2: then the four in the little baby she's holding.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so their house.

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Speaker 2: They're pointing. You can see how many people are standing

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Speaker 2: in front of here. They say homes in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: No longer exist.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know how old this newspaper clipping is,

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Speaker 2: but this is what it was like to tell me

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Speaker 2: what you think.

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Speaker 3: Well, in terms of the house, this is a photo

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Speaker 3: from across the street looking at the front of the house,

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Speaker 3: but it's not directly in front. It's at an angle,

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Speaker 3: so I can see that the other houses that are

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Speaker 3: next to the victim's house. It looks like there's at

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Speaker 3: least the three stories above ground. You have the main

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Speaker 3: floor or second floor, and then maybe an attic, there's

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Speaker 3: a large balcony off the second floor. And I think

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Speaker 3: you also said that this house had a basement, so

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Speaker 3: there's no question that this is this is a sizeable house. Now,

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Speaker 3: the street, it looks like a fairly wide street, almost

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Speaker 3: as if it's a main thoroughfare in the area at

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Speaker 3: the time. There's automobiles that are parked on the curb

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Speaker 3: opposite from the side of the street of the house.

304
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Speaker 3: And then, as you mentioned, a very large crowd and

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Speaker 3: what is going on? There is this photo like after

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Speaker 3: the crime scene is found.

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Speaker 2: Yes, okay, so this is everybody once they've read about

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Speaker 2: it in the newspaper.

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Speaker 1: These are people gathering to gawk. Essentially.

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Speaker 3: These are luki loose, the.

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Speaker 2: Looky lose, These you know, well to do people. This

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Speaker 2: is a great example, Paul. I mean, how many people

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Speaker 2: do you think are out there? It's just sort of

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Speaker 2: a eyeball. A couple hundred or more, what do you

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Speaker 2: think somewhere.

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Speaker 3: In that range? I mean, this is this is not

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Speaker 3: a small crowd. This looks like there's like a major

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Speaker 3: event going on, you know. And somebody is standing up

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Speaker 3: on the porch of the victim's house almost like he's

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Speaker 3: presenting to this crowd. It's really bizarre.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is what I've said many times when people say,

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Speaker 2: why are we so all of a sudden everybody is

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Speaker 2: so crazy about true crime? And it's this is a

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Speaker 2: genre that's exploded. No, it hasn't. We've always been like,

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Speaker 2: this is a great illustration. We've always been fascinated with

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Speaker 2: the stories. It's just the mode of communication, you know,

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Speaker 2: the creative aspect of it, how we can deliver these stories,

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Speaker 2: has exploded. It's not our interest in it. And this is,

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Speaker 2: like I said, a great illustration of that. Look at

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Speaker 2: all these people coming out. I'm sure there are kids

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Speaker 2: in the crowd. So this is this was definitely a

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Speaker 2: big story at the time.

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Speaker 3: Well, these people are reading something in the newspaper. They're

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Speaker 3: not watching the news, right, they're actually reading it in

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Speaker 3: the newspaper, and they're taking time out of their lives

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Speaker 3: to go to this crime scene.

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Speaker 1: And of course you have to think about it.

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Speaker 2: This is before the Internet, of course, and this is

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Speaker 2: where they probably thought they would get the most authentic

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Speaker 2: information would just be going down there and seeing what

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Speaker 2: the police are saying, versus googling every you know, news

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Speaker 2: source or blogger YouTube, you can think of what is

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Speaker 2: what we would do now people would just show up

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Speaker 2: at these crime scenes. So let's get to the crime

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Speaker 2: that made this a crime scene. So all of this

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Speaker 2: happened on the night of July third, nineteen twenty nine,

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Speaker 2: but it's not discovered until the next morning when Bennie's

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Speaker 2: real estate colleague shows up for a meeting because Bennie's

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Speaker 2: office is in the house. So this guy named Vincent

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Speaker 2: Alias shows up for this meeting and he comes inside

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Speaker 2: and then he sees the scene. So he sees Bennie's wife.

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Speaker 2: After he goes upstairs, he sees Bennie's wife who is Santina,

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Speaker 2: and her body is slumped over the bed. Her head

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Speaker 2: is described as horribly mutilated and nearly severed from her body.

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Speaker 2: Her arm also has a very deep cut in it,

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Speaker 2: as if the murderer was attempting to amputate it. So

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Speaker 2: when he doesn't see people downstairs, he goes upstairs and

358
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Speaker 2: the first bedroom he encounters is where Santina is. So

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Speaker 2: just that part I will tell you that these injuries

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Speaker 2: are repeated with the kids basically decapitated. She slumped over

361
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Speaker 2: the bed and a very deep cut as if the

362
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Speaker 2: murderer was trying to amputate her without me going into

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Speaker 2: where Bennie is or you know, the scene or anything

364
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Speaker 2: like that. What do you think just of that sort

365
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Speaker 2: of level of brutality, they immediately think it's an axe

366
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Speaker 2: that has done it.

367
00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:19,560
Speaker 1: What is that?

368
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Speaker 2: Is that a mad person or god? It just seems

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Speaker 2: awful against a woman.

370
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Speaker 3: Well, with this type of injury work cases that include

371
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,320
Speaker 3: a machete, you know, which can produce similar types of injuries.

372
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,560
Speaker 3: So you know, it appears that the killer is utilizing

373
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Speaker 3: this type of weapon, which today is relatively unusual. But

374
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,880
Speaker 3: we've done a fair number of stories from this timeframe. Yeah,

375
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,400
Speaker 3: this is a much more readily available weapon, it seems

376
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,520
Speaker 3: back during this era. So it's hard to really extrapolate

377
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:58,320
Speaker 3: anything behaviorally about the offender by choosing to use this weapon.

378
00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,800
Speaker 3: This may have just been the weapon that was most

379
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:06,080
Speaker 3: immediately available to this particular offender versus a firearm or

380
00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:10,480
Speaker 3: a knife or something else. I think this idea that

381
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,960
Speaker 3: the offender is trying to purposefully amputate Santina's arm, now

382
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,639
Speaker 3: that doesn't sound right when somebody is being attacked with

383
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,400
Speaker 3: a weapon like an axe or a machete, and they

384
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,320
Speaker 3: go into a defensive posture. It is common to see

385
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,520
Speaker 3: this type of injury to the arms. You know, people

386
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:34,320
Speaker 3: are familiar like if somebody is warding off blows. Let's

387
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,800
Speaker 3: say somebody has a hammer or a bat and is

388
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,360
Speaker 3: beating on somebody and the arms go up. The forearms

389
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,600
Speaker 3: will get a lot of bruising, just like if somebody

390
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,960
Speaker 3: has a knife and is now stabbing against the victim.

391
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,919
Speaker 3: The defensive injuries you get the incisive injuries of the

392
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,520
Speaker 3: knife on the hands and on the forearms as they

393
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,199
Speaker 3: try to protect themselves. When somebody is attacking you with

394
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 3: an axe and your arm goes up, that axe is

395
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:07,120
Speaker 3: going through the arm. My interpretation right now is Santina

396
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,560
Speaker 3: is aware she is being attacked and is going into

397
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 3: a defensive posture, and that's when the axe hits the arm,

398
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:19,120
Speaker 3: and an axe will produce an injury in which literally

399
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 3: the arm could be completely severed or it can go

400
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,439
Speaker 3: through the bones. And let's say it's at the forearm level.

401
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,760
Speaker 3: Skin is the only thing holding part of the arm

402
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 3: to the body. So that's what it sounds like. She's

403
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,120
Speaker 3: aware she's being attacked, goes into a defensive posture, and

404
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,480
Speaker 3: then of course, her head is receiving blows either from

405
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,320
Speaker 3: the blade of the axe or the back of the axe,

406
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,840
Speaker 3: as well as sounds like her neck is hit with

407
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 3: the axe, probably as almost like a coup de gras,

408
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,639
Speaker 3: you know, where this could be the last blow, which

409
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,600
Speaker 3: now the offender. She's lost consciousness, and the offender ends

410
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 3: up basically taking the axe to the neck and nearly

411
00:20:57,880 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 3: cutting her head off.

412
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Speaker 1: Well, of course much worse.

413
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Speaker 2: So we are not thinking that this is what they

414
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 2: say an intentional amputation of the arm. We're thinking that

415
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 2: these were defensive wounds, which definitely tallies with I think

416
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:17,200
Speaker 2: what's coming up. She is protecting her baby, Mario, who's

417
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,440
Speaker 2: eighteen months old. He dies too. She is holding him,

418
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,239
Speaker 2: and he has several gashes on his head. So I

419
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 2: don't think it's clear whether or not the killer is

420
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:33,679
Speaker 2: targeting both, you know, Santina and Mario, or Mario just

421
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 2: gets some gashes accidentally. But I will tell you the

422
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,400
Speaker 2: other three kids are dead also well.

423
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,119
Speaker 3: I think if the killer is purposely moving through the

424
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 3: house and is killing the other kids, then Mario may

425
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:51,160
Speaker 3: not just be ancillary. I think the killer, knowing that

426
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 3: Santina is trying to protect Mario was able to inflict

427
00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,640
Speaker 3: sufficient injuries to Mario to kill the eighteen month old

428
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 3: in addition to being able to inflict the injuries on Santina.

429
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 3: And this also plays into how Santina is going to

430
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,359
Speaker 3: be responding to the offender, because you imagine, if she's

431
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 3: got her baby, you know, she is going to be

432
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,919
Speaker 3: trying to hold onto the baby in a way to

433
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 3: prevent the offender from hurting the baby, and maybe has

434
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 3: the baby in one arm with the other arm up

435
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 3: in a defensive posture at some point, and then that's

436
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 3: when that arm gets the blow from this axe, you know.

437
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 3: And if you imagine if she's hugging onto this baby,

438
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,919
Speaker 3: the offender has free rein to her head, she's not

439
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 3: able to put her arms up above her head to

440
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 3: help shield. Not that it would do much good, but

441
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 3: this is all part of just thinking about the dynamics

442
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 3: of how this crime would occur, how Santina would be

443
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 3: responding physically to trying to protect her baby as well

444
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 3: as warding off the offender, and then how the offender

445
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 3: has access to be able to inflict certain types of

446
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 3: blas or certain locations of blows with an axe while

447
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 3: you know, Santinez is trying to do two things, keep

448
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 3: herself safe and keep her baby safe.

449
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 1: Well, it's an awful scene.

450
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,880
Speaker 2: It's very, very bloody, and when investigators eventually move over

451
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 2: to the next bedroom, this is where they find the

452
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 2: three girls, the ones that are ranging from seven years old.

453
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 2: So there's a seven year old, a five year old,

454
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 2: and a four year old. They're all in the same bedroom,

455
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 2: which is right next door to the parents' bedroom, and

456
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 2: two of them are in the same twin bed. And

457
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 2: I don't know why I thought that that was interesting,

458
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 2: because it's a huge house with lots and lots of bedrooms.

459
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 2: I mean, because they're young, It's possible that they just

460
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 2: wanted the kids right next door and kind of grouped

461
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 2: them in there.

462
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: They could have heard something.

463
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 2: You know, if we take Benny out of the picture

464
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 2: for a minute, the killer probably would have targeted of course,

465
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 2: if you know, if she's the only adult upstairs, the

466
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 2: killer would have targeted the mom first, and maybe the

467
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: kids huddle together. But you know, these three girls are

468
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 2: all together in one room and they are all found dead.

469
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 2: They have several gashes on their faces. One of the

470
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 2: children has a very similar injury to her mom. We

471
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,199
Speaker 2: don't know which one could have been the oldest. It

472
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 2: appears like the killer tried to cut her arm off

473
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,719
Speaker 2: according to investigators in nineteen twenty nine. And you know, everybody,

474
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 2: their faces specifically seem to have been targeted. So now

475
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 2: you've got a mom and four children who were all

476
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 2: dead upstairs.

477
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 3: I would postulate that the killer goes in and I

478
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 3: don't know the sequence mom versus the three girls in

479
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 3: the other room in terms of who was killed first.

480
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 3: But my suspicion is as these girls are, as you mentioned,

481
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 3: at least two of them were laying in a twin

482
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 3: bed together. The offenders taking the axe to them. Whether

483
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 3: they're cowering and they're aware that there's something bad going

484
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,120
Speaker 3: on because they heard their mom screaming, or they're asleep,

485
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 3: but he's just taking the axe and striking them in

486
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 3: the head, whether they're face up, face down, you know

487
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 3: that's what the killer is doing. This one girl who

488
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 3: has her arm which appears to be partially amputated. I

489
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 3: again go back to this girl as likely in a

490
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 3: defensive posture. So you know, this devious killer who's trying

491
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 3: to amputate his victim's arms. This just tells. With those

492
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 3: investigators forming that opinion, that speaks to I think they're

493
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 3: inexperience with this type of violence.

494
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,199
Speaker 2: Okay, you know, before we get to the man in

495
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 2: this situation, Benny, investigators say nothing was taken if we're

496
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 2: talking about motive just right now, before you know anything more,

497
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 2: no money, It doesn't seem to be there's any money taken.

498
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 2: But you know, one thing I had not thought that

499
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: was a good note in here was listen, people kept cash,

500
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,479
Speaker 2: lots of cash all the time. You know, with the

501
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 2: girls and the mom dead, there's nobody there right now

502
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,640
Speaker 2: to say whether or not there was you know, five

503
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: thousand dollars worth of cash hidden in somebody too. But

504
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 2: investigators are saying that robbery seems to be off the table.

505
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 2: If that's the case, and if this is not a

506
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 2: family annihilation story, what is the motivation of a stranger

507
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 2: with an axe to kill little kids who are unlikely

508
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 2: to ever be witnesses? Could that be something sort of

509
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 2: inside that person, a desire or is it a frenzy?

510
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 2: They describe it as a frenzy. I just don't understand.

511
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 2: I still don't understand the motivation for killing kids who

512
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: will never identify you if you're a stranger.

513
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 3: Let's say this is truly a stranger that's the killer.

514
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 3: It's not unheard of. And I've got one case that

515
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 3: I didn't go out on, but I reviewed, which kind

516
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 3: of similar, not with an axe, but basically a toddler

517
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,719
Speaker 3: was killed in his crib and then the parents were

518
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 3: also killed, and that offender happened to have a what

519
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 3: I would call a psychosis. This is your psychotic type

520
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 3: of offender. Something internally is driving the offender to think that,

521
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 3: you know, must go in and kill this family. And

522
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 3: what that thought process is is something that can be

523
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 3: just so bizarre because these types of offenders are not

524
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 3: thinking right. Richard Trent and Chase. You know, the vampire

525
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 3: killer out of Sacramento back in nineteen seventy seven timeframe,

526
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 3: you know, he had aliens tell him I think that

527
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 3: you know, when you pick up a bar of soap

528
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 3: in the shower and it's all gooey underneath, that means

529
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 3: that she had soap dish poisoning. And the only cure

530
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 3: for soap dish poisoning is to drink somebody's blood, you know.

531
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 3: So this is the type of you know, psychotic mindset

532
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 3: that you know, an offender such as in this case,

533
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 3: you could have somebody who is suffering from something like

534
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 3: that and ends up, you know, killing this you know

535
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 3: this mother and the four kids. So there's that possibility.

536
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 3: Then there's possibly a vindictive offender seeking revenge, and part

537
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 3: of that revenge is maybe Santina or Benny were the

538
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 3: primary targets of this vindictive aspect, but decides to wipe

539
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 3: out the entire family just as part of this whole

540
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 3: revenge mindset. It doesn't sound like, at least with the

541
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 3: way that you set this case up, this does not

542
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 3: sound like a fantasy motivated offender at this point in time.

543
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 3: Somebody who's got some sort of fantasy, either sexual fantasy

544
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 3: or violent fantasy that they need to commit for their

545
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 3: own self gratification. Now I wouldn't take that off the

546
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 3: table yet, but it sounds less likely given the circumstances.

547
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: Right, and investigators say there's not evidence of sexual assault

548
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: on anybody, but you know, of course there's always the

549
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 2: caveat there. But from the onset, that's what they're saying.

550
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 2: So let's talk about the only male in the house

551
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 2: besides little Maria Bennie. So Benny has an office, and

552
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 2: everybody else was, you know, dressed in their nightgowns and

553
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: were upstairs in bed at sleep. Presumably whenever this happened,

554
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 2: Bennie was not, so this could have been. And when

555
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 2: I started reading this, I was thinking this is a

556
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: family annihilator story. It doesn't sound like it. Bennie's lifeless

557
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 2: body is found slumped over in a chair in his office.

558
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 2: He's fully dressed in the clothes that he had been

559
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 2: wearing that day, his hand so he's slumped in this chair.

560
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: But they find his hands folded in his lap together

561
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 2: as if he's praying, and his head is laying on

562
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 2: the floor beside his chair. He's been decapitated. So my

563
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 2: main suspect is now out the window.

564
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 3: Well, that'd be hard to be a self inflicted wound.

565
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 3: And I'm assuming they didn't find any weird apparatus that

566
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 3: you know, you know, Benny set up a little guillotine

567
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 3: to take his own.

568
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: Life, not that I can tell.

569
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 2: But this is where this story gets super weird when

570
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: I get into the details about Benny and his life.

571
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: Okay, it gets weird.

572
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 2: So I told you that the police throw the robbery

573
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 2: theory kind of out the window, because there's nothing that

574
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 2: anyone can tell is really missing. When they start bringing

575
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 2: people in who know the family and who know the

576
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,959
Speaker 2: house really well, they search the home. They think that

577
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 2: the murderer left through an exterior door in the kitchen.

578
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: There's a set of men's bloody shoeprints that lead through

579
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 2: the kitchen and go upstairs to the wife's bedroom and

580
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 2: then back down. And there's a bloody fingerprint and a

581
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 2: thumbprint on the kitchen door's latch. So this is good news.

582
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 2: We have fingerprints, which you know, from writing American Sherlock

583
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 2: set in the nineteen twenties, I know that they were

584
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: actively doing fingerprinting at this time period. We need a suspect,

585
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 2: but you know, at this point at least we've got

586
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 2: some kind of forensics moving forward.

587
00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 3: So, yeah, bloody shoeprints that appear to originate out of

588
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 3: where Benny is located, and then those shoe prints go

589
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 3: up to where Santina, his wife is, or vice versa.

590
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: No, it's a kitchen, so it's an exterior door in

591
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 2: the kitchen. So somebody goes through the outside into an

592
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 2: exterior door, walks through the kitchen, goes upstairs. I'm assuming,

593
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: you know, killing Benny first. I don't know if this

594
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: is someone who needed to be familiar with the layout

595
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 2: of the house. It's a huge house. And then they

596
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 2: go upstairs, there's blood, and then they come back down

597
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: and leave.

598
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 3: So let's let's assume the offender comes in with an axe.

599
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 3: I would be surprised that with a single strike with

600
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 3: an axe that that would completely decapitate Benny, especially if

601
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 3: he's just sitting in the chair. You know, the offender

602
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 3: comes up behind him. You know, Benny's positioning is odd,

603
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 3: you know, sitting there with his hands folded like maybe

604
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 3: he was just sitting there. Is he being controlled by

605
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 3: this offender? And Benny's just now acknowledging my life, life

606
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 3: is over? You know, if the offender and the autopsy

607
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 3: would also be able to help answer this question. But

608
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 3: if the offender is doing my multiple strikes to Benny's neck,

609
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 3: you know that would be seen in the wounding pattern

610
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 3: if a single strike went through Benny's neck. This is

611
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 3: either a very very sharp axe with a very broad

612
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 3: blade like almost like your executioner acts that you see,

613
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 3: you know, or are you dealing with a sword of

614
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 3: some type which right now, you know, I can't eliminate

615
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 3: that as a possibility.

616
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: It's such an odd scene, especially with all of the blood,

617
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 2: and you know they're saying a man's fingerprint.

618
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 3: Well, I do want to underscore though, this is a

619
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 3: this is going to be a very bloody scene. All

620
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 3: these injuries, you know, the decapitation, that could be very bloody,

621
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 3: you know, with the heart pumping, the injury to the

622
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 3: forearms where the near amputation. If these are still alive

623
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 3: and their hearts are pumping, you're going to have a

624
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 3: lot of blood. And some of this blood if you

625
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 3: have what's called arcurial spurting, which is an absolute possibility

626
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 3: with these neck injuries. You know, now you have blood

627
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 3: that's gushing a distance, you know, away from where the

628
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 3: victims are, that the offender could possibly be stepping in

629
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 3: or on the offender's person, you know, his clothing, or

630
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 3: he ends up getting something on his hands, you know.

631
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 3: And of course I'm kind of curious that he manipulated

632
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 3: any of these victims after they receive bleeding injuries. But

633
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 3: I'll let you continue.

634
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I have a question a little bit

635
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 2: about the sequencing. I know, we don't really know it.

636
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 2: He's on the first floor. Everybody else is asleep upstairs.

637
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 2: You would normally assume that if this killer is somebody

638
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 2: who knows who lives in this house, because they're targeted

639
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 2: it's not robbery, that they would go for Benny first, right,

640
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 2: That's what we would think. And plus he's on the

641
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 2: first floor.

642
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 3: Well, generally, you know, Benny is going to be perceived

643
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 3: by the killer as the biggest threat, and so the

644
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 3: killer is going to try to eliminate that threat before

645
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 3: moving on. However, right now, I can't say you're dealing

646
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 3: with a single offender in this case. You know, even

647
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 3: with the blood evidence that you've detailed, you can have

648
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 3: multiple offenders go in and then now they divide and

649
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 3: conquer one offender, multiple offenders go in to deal with

650
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 3: Benny in his office, and another offender, other offenders, you know,

651
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 3: go upstairs to take care of mom and the kids

652
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 3: don't know this right now, you know. So at this point,

653
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 3: with the defensive injury to Santina, while she's holding her

654
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 3: eighteen month old son, I imagine she is, She's going

655
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 3: to be quite vocal while she's being attacked, you know,

656
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,720
Speaker 3: and that's going to alert potentially the other family members.

657
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 3: Now we know kids can sleep through a lot, you know,

658
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 3: so the kids next door may or may not have

659
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 3: heard mom. Would Benny have heard mom? Is in part

660
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 3: of you know, is this a simultaneous attack or is

661
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 3: Benny dead at the time Mom's being attacked or vice versa.

662
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 3: You know, that's just part of the complexity I think

663
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 3: in evaluating this case.

664
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 2: To me, it's so complex because you have, you know,

665
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: the wife who has defensive wounds. We've got at least

666
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: one of the kids who has defensive wounds. It does

667
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 2: not say that Bennie has any defensive wounds. He is

668
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 2: simply sitting in his chair. Santina was obviously moving. I mean,

669
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 2: she had a defensive wound, and she's slumped over the

670
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 2: bed in a way that's not normal. It's not like

671
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 2: she was found in the fetal position or on her stomach,

672
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 2: as if she were sleeping and this happened. This seemed

673
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: like a fight in some way. Why would that not

674
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 2: be the case with Bennie. They really make it sound

675
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: like it was like a kind of a clean clip

676
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: off of his head. The head's on the ground, he's

677
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 2: not fighting, and his hands are in a prayer position.

678
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 2: I don't understand how you have all these other people fighting.

679
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 2: But Bennie, that's why I was asking you about, is

680
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: there any way this could be a suicide? Because this

681
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 2: gets so weird right now.

682
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 3: I'm going to table the suicide possibility on Benny, and

683
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 3: I'm going to put out three options that I can

684
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 3: think of off the top of my head with Benny.

685
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 3: One is is Benny has just happens to be sitting

686
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 3: in the chair and the offender is able to sneak

687
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 3: up and basically do a blitz attack. Benny has no idea,

688
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 3: you know, the offenders behind him and now wields an

689
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 3: axe or a sword and cuts his head off. The

690
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 3: second possibility is Benny is basically under such fear and

691
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 3: control by the offender or the offenders in the room.

692
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,479
Speaker 3: You know, he is recognizing I can't I can't fight,

693
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 3: you know, he's given up the ghost. Imagine a fender

694
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 3: standing in front of him with a gun and then

695
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 3: you have another offender behind him with an axe and

696
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 3: Benny's just there not knowing that the guy behind him

697
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 3: is going to cut his head off. There's that type

698
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 3: of scenario. And then that could be with a single

699
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 3: offender or multiple offenders. The other possibility and this goes

700
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 3: to you know, victimology and understanding the family dynamics. Is

701
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 3: that mom and the kids are up and it looks

702
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 3: like they're putting themselves to bed or in bed. Was

703
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 3: it routine for Benny to stay up later than the family?

704
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 3: And is he somebody who's in biby. You know, he's

705
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 3: got his bourbon, He's sitting there, He's got a fair

706
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 3: amount of bourbon inside of him, and now he's in

707
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 3: a slumber and offender comes in and Benny's just you know,

708
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 3: kind of out of it, and the offender ends up

709
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 3: killing Benny. Those are three options that I can think

710
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 3: of off the top of my head to kind of

711
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 3: account for Benny Big in this really bizarre position. And

712
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 3: then if you look at the suicide, that's where for

713
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 3: Benny to have done this to himself, where he's cutting

714
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 3: his head off, absence somebody else coming in and staging

715
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 3: the scene after Benny kills himself his head off in

716
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 3: terms of removing whatever apparatus Benny used to decapitate himself.

717
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 3: This really right now, I have to wait until you

718
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 3: tell me something where I go aha, Okay, I can

719
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 3: see how this happened to Benny if he's the one

720
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 3: who's responsible for killing his family and himself. But then

721
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 3: it's also assessing the bloody fingerprints, the bloody shoe, Prince.

722
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 3: Does it appear that Benny has those evidence of that

723
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 3: on his person? Did he have a possibility of cleaning

724
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 3: up that blood before he takes his own life? Is

725
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 3: there the possibility that somebody else came in under Benny's

726
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 3: direction in order to be able to stage this as

727
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 3: a you know, I guess this would be a x

728
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 3: tuple homicide of six people are dead, right, so in

729
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 3: order for let's say life insurance policies to pay out,

730
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 3: you know, and who's going to be the beneficiary of that.

731
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 2: Right, They start exploring different possibilities. Of course, they're going

732
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 2: into different theories. One is there wondering about his business practices,

733
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 2: of course, so they are trying to figure out if

734
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 2: there are any lawsuits. He has been at the center

735
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 2: several different lawsuits because of the real estate dealings. So

736
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 2: the police initially think this is a good lead. But

737
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 2: according to Benny's lawyer, he said, these are nothing. Even

738
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 2: if we lost, we'd be able to pay these off.

739
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 2: In a millisecond is no big deal. Of course, you

740
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 2: and I talk about all the time. No big deal

741
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 2: in our heads is pretty different than no big deal

742
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 2: in a killer's head, right.

743
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's not necessarily anything that an offender to have

744
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 3: motive doesn't mean that there's all some sort of legal

745
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 3: action going on. You could have an offender that has

746
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 3: felt slided by Benny in a business practice and is deciding, Okay,

747
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 3: I'm going to take you out. You've got somebody who's

748
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 3: so vindictive, and this would be maybe to Benny or

749
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 3: to us evaluating what could possibly be perceived as such

750
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 3: a trivial business issue. Yet to that person, for whatever reason,

751
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 3: it's like the biggest thing in their life that they

752
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 3: feel slighted on or they're mad at Bennie. So there's

753
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 3: always that weird motive that doesn't just bubble to the

754
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 3: surface when you evaluate these business transactions, and the same

755
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 3: thing on the interpersonal side. You know, maybe Benny and

756
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 3: somebody else got into a fight, whether it be the

757
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 3: week before or five years before, and that person has

758
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 3: just harbored that anger all this time, has decided tonight's

759
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 3: the night I'm going to go in and take care

760
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 3: of Benny and his family. Who knows. You know, those

761
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 3: are all possibilities, you know, and I know investigators are

762
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 3: looking at Bennie's real estate transactions. But something you opened

763
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 3: up the case with is that it's possible, like three

764
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 3: of the children aren't Benny's.

765
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: We aren't sure about the origin I guess of some

766
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 2: of these kids. The family doctor said that, you know,

767
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 2: he wasn't sure because they had been married recently.

768
00:40:58,640 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean anything.

769
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 2: And I'll get to a kind of a weird fact

770
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 2: about a kid who died several years ago who definitely

771
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: was Bennie's and his wife's. So yeah, you're I mean,

772
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 2: I know where you're going with this. Yeah, we don't

773
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 2: know about any if there is a biological father walking

774
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: around out there.

775
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, what you know this is, you know, Santino's

776
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 3: victimology is you know, did she have a you know,

777
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 3: horrible breakup with whoever the bile dad is of these

778
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: other kids? Is there another man on the side, you know,

779
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 3: there's all of that where now you can see somebody

780
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 3: who feels spurned by Santina is deciding to come in

781
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 3: and take out this entire family. Yeah, but that's again it,

782
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 3: you know right now, it's I think all possibilities are

783
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 3: out there. The oddity for me is, you know Benny

784
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 3: in his office. You know that does seem a little

785
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 3: bit strange. And again, more details, keep feeding them to me.

786
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 2: Okay, let me move through some of what I would

787
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: consider to be the quote unquote normal theories that might

788
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 2: have happened here. The first theory, or the first line

789
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 2: of investigation, is that the day before the murders, Benny

790
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 2: had made a phone call to a man who was

791
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 2: a hired hand.

792
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: But this was a guy who Benny.

793
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 2: Had hired to watch over this demolition of a house

794
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: that was happening about sixty miles away from Detroit. So

795
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: Benny wanted to see the demolition of this house. He

796
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 2: wanted to step in and buy lumber from the demolition site,

797
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 2: and so he told the watchman, when you can confirm

798
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: that this demolition happened, I'll hire a delivery company to

799
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 2: hold all the material to the house. The demolition happened,

800
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 2: and the delivery was expected to arrive on July fourth,

801
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 2: which is just hours after the family was discovered murdered,

802
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 2: and it's never showed up, which the investigator thought was

803
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 2: really suspicious. The night watchmen or the watchman was presumably cleared,

804
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 2: but we don't have a lot of details on that

805
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 2: part of the investigation. The delivery service was never identified,

806
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 2: so they would have to talk to you know. However,

807
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 2: many different delivery services there were out there, and Benny

808
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 2: never told the watchman the name of the delivery company,

809
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 2: so no one ever picked up this lumber to begin with,

810
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 2: and the police are sort of theorizing that somehow the

811
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 2: delivery company did pick up or found out that this

812
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 2: is where this wealthy real estate guy lived, because they

813
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 2: had his address and they're the ones who got involved

814
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 2: and you know, wanted to steal money, steal cash, but

815
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 2: nothing was taken from the house. It seems like a

816
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 2: week theory to me. But we do talk about opportunistic

817
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 2: crimes like this.

818
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 3: Now, what does the benefit to the offenders under that scenario,

819
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 3: you know, if they didn't take anything out of the house,

820
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 3: And of course there's always the do we even really

821
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 3: know that because the entire fan family is dead, and

822
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 3: so what you had said at the beginning in terms

823
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 3: of is there five thousand dollars in cash that was

824
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 3: just hidden away and something that you know, offender could

825
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 3: open up, grab and close it back, you know, like

826
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 3: a drawer. It's like, yeah, there's no way investigators are

827
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 3: going to be able to know if anything was taken,

828
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 3: you know, unless there's a you know, bloody fingerprints inside

829
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 3: a drawer. Under this particular theory, the value let's say

830
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,879
Speaker 3: it's a robbery slash theft aspect is going to be

831
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 3: the lumber and whatever else from the demolition of the house.

832
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 3: You know. So maybe that's why that never showed up,

833
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 3: is that this was such of such value to the

834
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 3: offender's mind. Is that they decided, well, we're going to

835
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 3: take this and we're going to kill this family. So

836
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 3: nobody can report that this never made it. I think

837
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 3: it's weak, you know, It's just it's one of those things,

838
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 3: like I always say, I never eliminate any possibility. I

839
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 3: just put more or less weight on based on maya

840
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 3: the case and the information as it comes in. Maybe

841
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 3: something comes down the pipe for all of a sudden,

842
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 3: this becomes the prime theory.

843
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

844
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 2: And I will say though about the cash, like the

845
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 2: nothing has been taken, so this isn't robbery theory. This

846
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 2: is a man who was an immigrant from Italy. This

847
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,919
Speaker 2: is nineteen twenty nine, where people are starting to feel

848
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 2: the inkling that something's happening with the economy. I would

849
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 2: be absolutely shocked if he did not have cash in

850
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 2: his house.

851
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: Shocked. They didn't find anything that I read.

852
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 2: You know, this is the amount of money that was here,

853
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 2: and the thief stepped over it and it completely ignored

854
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 2: it and decided to go ahead and kill all these

855
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 2: people instead. But they also didn't find a big chunk

856
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 2: of money. So I don't know, but I suspect there

857
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 2: is money somewhere in that house. Maybe the police just

858
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 2: couldn't locate it.

859
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, this really falls under It's just like

860
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 3: the phrase no signs of forced entry doesn't mean that

861
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 3: there wasn't forced entry. It's just that there weren't any

862
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 3: signs of it. It's the same thing with this financial

863
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 3: motive aspect. Whether it be a robbery or some sort

864
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 3: of theft that the offenders were looking at doing, is

865
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 3: it's possible that they did accomplish a robbery. You know,

866
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 3: Benny's sitting in his chair and he's saying, yeah, in

867
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 3: my desk is all the cash. And they go and

868
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 3: they open up the drawer to the desk grab the cash,

869
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 3: close the drawer, and then cut his head off. You know,

870
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 3: investigators would never be able to piece that together.

871
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about obvious suspects. We have a few

872
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: of them.

873
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,919
Speaker 2: One is the man who discovered Benny and his family dead,

874
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 2: Vincent alias I told you he is the colleague, the

875
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 2: real estate colleague of Benny. He had been brought in

876
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 2: for questioning. Reportedly his thumbprint match the one found on

877
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 2: the kitchen door, which was bloodied. And we've talked about that,

878
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 2: like the sequence of course, you know, Vincent I'm sure

879
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 2: has been at the house a million times. There are

880
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 2: probably thumb prints of his everywhere, but not in the

881
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 2: blood right, and so that would make this, you know,

882
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,439
Speaker 2: really kind of a unique situation. But they said it's

883
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 2: not conc inclusive. They think that it looks close, but

884
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 2: you know, pattern matching in the nineteen twenties was not

885
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 2: particularly reliable unless you had just an outstanding sample.

886
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: So they released him. They didn't have enough information.

887
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 2: I mean, even in nineteen twenty nine they knew they

888
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 2: didn't have enough on Vincent to say, you know that

889
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 2: this is conclusive that he was there. But what do

890
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 2: you think about that? Mean is a business colleague. You know,

891
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 2: he probably had been to the house many times. Seems

892
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 2: like a good suspect to me.

893
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,879
Speaker 3: Well potentially, you know part of you know, this bloody fingerprint,

894
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 3: you know, this is all part of the interview. What

895
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 3: did Vincent do once he found the bodies? Did he

896
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 3: actually go up and touch Santina or touch Benny? You know,

897
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 3: this is part of the crime scene contamination that we

898
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 3: always have to account for. The first thing I do

899
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 3: when I arrive at a crime scene is okay, how

900
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 3: is this crime scene discovered? Who discovered it? What did

901
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 3: they do? When officers arrived or deputies arrived or paramedics arrived,

902
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 3: what did they do? What did they touch? So, by

903
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 3: the time the scene is being processed, typically there is

904
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 3: some type of contamination that is normal just because of

905
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 3: the sequence of events that happens after the offender has

906
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 3: left and by the time the scene is actually being investigated.

907
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 3: So this is where looking at Vincent in this bloody print,

908
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 3: the interview process of Vincent has to see if his

909
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 3: activities inside that house after discovering the scene could account

910
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 3: for that bloody print. And of course, as you were

911
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 3: mentioning how good of a print is it sounds like

912
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 3: they weren't able to make a good identification and is

913
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 3: this a very partial bloody print, and maybe the examiner

914
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 3: just overstretched by saying it could be Vincent.

915
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 2: Well, we have two more suspects who met with Benny

916
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:59,240
Speaker 2: the night before when it sounds like the family was murdered.

917
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 2: We don't know an zact timeframe, but they were probably

918
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 2: the last people to see him alive, and they are

919
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 2: very suspicious that police are wanting to close in and

920
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 2: make an arrest because when they search the barn of

921
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 2: one of these two men, they find weapons that could

922
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 2: have inflicted the kinds of injuries that the family sustained.

923
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 2: And I will have to give you more details in

924
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 2: our next episode.

925
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 3: You're going to lead me hanging again, I am?

926
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:32,360
Speaker 1: I mean, when do I not Paul?

927
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 2: It's pretty much every time we do a double episode,

928
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 2: I have to it's my job.

929
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 3: I'm about to lose my head over this one.

930
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 2: Oh God, you guys tweeted him not me. Okay, next

931
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 2: week we will wrap this case up, which is still

932
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 2: so much to talk about, because if you think some

933
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 2: of this stuff is weird, just waiting until you hear

934
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 2: what Benny has been doing in this neighbor, which is

935
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 2: gonna really for me throw the case into the wind,

936
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 2: and it feels like sometimes we have to start all over.

937
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 1: With this stuff. So I can't wait to tell you

938
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: what's happening next.

939
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 3: Oh, it sounds like there's some juicy victimology coming, so yeah,

940
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to it.

941
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:15,439
Speaker 1: Okay, see you next week.

942
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:16,439
Speaker 3: Sounds good.

943
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

944
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 3: Our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot

945
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 3: com slash Buried Bones sources.

946
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

947
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, ali Elkin, Kate Winkler Dawson.

948
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

949
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

950
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

951
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

952
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

953
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:54,240
Speaker 2: Buried Bones pod.

954
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,240
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

955
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

956
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now

957
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My Life solving America's

958
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 2: cold cases is also available now