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Speaker 1: When I was fifteen years old and was starting to

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Speaker 1: drive a car. My mother and I were traveling just

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Speaker 1: on kind of a lonely country road, and up ahead

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Speaker 1: there was some children playing in the street, like kickball

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Speaker 1: or something. I remember I blew the horn, thinking the

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Speaker 1: children just get out of the street, but I did

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Speaker 1: not reduce my speed. After I got safely past them.

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Speaker 1: She said to me to always be real cautious, that

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Speaker 1: children were unpredictable, that they could have changed their mind

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Speaker 1: and gone back into the roadway or tried to run

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Speaker 1: across the street, and that I didn't ever want to

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Speaker 1: be a part of any type of incident where something

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Speaker 1: happened to a child. She said, you would never forget it.

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Speaker 1: And she said when something like that traumatic happens, since

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Speaker 1: you can't forget it, you just got to live with it. Today, y'all,

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Speaker 1: when I tell you, I am like a kid myself

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Speaker 1: because I get to talk to a legend an extraordinary

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Speaker 1: human being. We've got Barbara Butcher with us. She is

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Speaker 1: a legendary death investigator out of Manhattan. She was the

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Speaker 1: first woman to have that job longer than three months.

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Speaker 1: She knows the underbelly, the dark side. She knows what

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Speaker 1: human beings can do to each other. She knows the dangers,

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Speaker 1: and you know what, she couldn't get enough of it.

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Speaker 1: For more than twenty years, she worked homicides, double homicides, suicides,

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Speaker 1: horrible accidents. She also worked underage victims of rape murder scenes.

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Speaker 1: She has that New York attitude. I'm told y'all know

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Speaker 1: that bravado. She has been to more than five thousand

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Speaker 1: and five one hundred death scenes. She knows what death

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Speaker 1: looks like. She knows what murder looks like. She will

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Speaker 1: tell you work and death every day teaches you about life.

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Speaker 1: But I'm gonna let her tell you. Barbara Butcher, Welcome,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Zown Heaven.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Cheryl. It's a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 2: And thank you for that lovely introduction. Wow makes me

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Speaker 2: sound kind of cool, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: Oh honey, you are the coolest. I'm telling you right now.

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Speaker 1: And let me just prove to people how cool you are.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: She has a book. It's called What the Dead No. Now,

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Speaker 1: I read an answer that you gave to another person.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to read a little bit of your answer,

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Speaker 1: and I want you to finish it for us. Just

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Speaker 1: to show people how cool you are, you said, and

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Speaker 1: I quote, this is a memoir of my life as

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Speaker 1: an addict, a recovering alcoholic who struggled to say sober

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Speaker 1: throughout the work. I ultimately came out on the other

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Speaker 1: end better able to live a life with beauty, creativity,

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Speaker 1: and enjoyment. I could bemoan being an alcoholic, but being

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Speaker 1: an alcoholic got me that job. The Employment program for

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Speaker 1: recovered alcoholics sent me to vocational training, where they gave

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Speaker 1: me a budget test and said, you should be a

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Speaker 1: poultry veterinarian or a corner If you work with puppies

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Speaker 1: or kittens, you'll always be upset if they're sick. But chickens,

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Speaker 1: those beady little eyes.

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Speaker 2: Nobody cares about chickens. I said, hmm, I'll tick dead people.

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Speaker 1: So there you go, folks. It's just that simple.

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Speaker 3: So I tell you, your career is so vast and

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Speaker 3: so interesting and frankly incredible that you don't even really

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Speaker 3: know where to start.

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Speaker 1: But I'm going to start where I see it in

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Speaker 1: my head. A lot of times, Barbara, when I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: about a particular person in their work life, a movie

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Speaker 1: starts to play in my head and for you. I

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Speaker 1: see you rolling up on the scene and there's a

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Speaker 1: bunch of cops stand in there, and you're like Butcher

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Speaker 1: for the medical Examiner, and all I can think of

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Speaker 1: is New York City cops. I'm sure the jokes were

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Speaker 1: effortless and abundant.

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Speaker 2: Constant, absolutely constant. There's nothing better than NYPD. And yes,

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Speaker 2: you're absolutely right. I love rolling up in that car

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Speaker 2: and you know, lights and sirens, and i'd maybe do

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Speaker 2: a little boot boop on a siren, say hello and

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Speaker 2: jumping out of there and flashing that nice gold shield.

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Speaker 2: How you doing, boys? What do you got for me?

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Speaker 2: And they'd be like, oh, it's doctor Butcher. I say,

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Speaker 2: I'm not a doctor. Yeah we know, but it just

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Speaker 2: sounds so damn good.

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Speaker 1: You gotta love NYPD. I've told this story before, but

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Speaker 1: not to you, so I will tell you. When I

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Speaker 1: was a little girl, I used to tell my mama

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Speaker 1: that I wanted to marry an Italian man because I

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Speaker 1: thought I thought, going into police work, that's the last

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Speaker 1: name you needed, you know. But of course when I

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Speaker 1: fell in love with Walt, you know, she told me, Look,

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Speaker 1: there's a long, solid history of good Irish cops in Boston,

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Speaker 1: so I felt a little okay with it. But there's

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Speaker 1: just nothing to me like a humor of police officers anyway.

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Speaker 1: In that camaraderie and that humor, I think their love

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Speaker 1: for you comes through in the way they treat you.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean it didn't start out that way, mind you.

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Speaker 2: As you mentioned, I was the first woman in Manhattan

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Speaker 2: to last more than three months. The woman before me

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Speaker 2: ran out screaming. I don't know if it's from the

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Speaker 2: work or from working with the guys at the office.

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Speaker 2: The first time I rolled up to a case on

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Speaker 2: my own, I stepped up to the doorway and the

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Speaker 2: detective stopped me and he said, yeah, honey, how can

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Speaker 2: I help you. I said, well, I'm high, I'm Barbara

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Speaker 2: Butcher from the medical office, and I want to examine

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Speaker 2: the body and you know, do the death scene investigation.

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Speaker 2: He said, yeah, honey, don't worry about it. Crime scene's

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Speaker 2: already here. They're taken care of it. I said, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: you know, I have to do my job real meek,

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Speaker 2: you know. And then I thought, you know what, this

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Speaker 2: is bullshit, this bullshit now, this is this is not

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Speaker 2: how it goes. So the next time I went out,

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Speaker 2: and a detective stopped me and said, yeah, honey, how

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Speaker 2: can I help you? I said, you know what, you

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Speaker 2: can't help me, but you know what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to go in there. I'm going to examine

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Speaker 2: that dead guy. I'm going to tell you why he died,

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Speaker 2: how he died, how long it took, how long he's

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Speaker 2: been dead, and maybe even who did it. And then

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Speaker 2: when you go to court, you can say, Barbara Butcher

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Speaker 2: told me, so, how's that?

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Speaker 1: That might be the greatest thing I've ever heard.

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Speaker 2: He said, all right, all right, honey, you go in.

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Speaker 2: You go right in.

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Speaker 1: All right, honey, you go in. That is fantastic. Now

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Speaker 1: you've had again some situations in your career that were

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Speaker 1: pretty unbelievable. Talk about the time you had a cast

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Speaker 1: on your arm.

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Speaker 2: Oh jeez, you know this still. I've been dining out

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Speaker 2: on this story for years, so I use it to

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Speaker 2: open the book. But I was bitching and moaning because

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Speaker 2: I had to I was out a sick time. But

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Speaker 2: yet my left arm wasn't a cast because I cut

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Speaker 2: a tendon with a saw trying to pretend to be

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Speaker 2: a woodworker. And I was bitching and moaning but I

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Speaker 2: had to go out on a case and they said, Barbara,

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Speaker 2: you got a hanging man. So when I got there,

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Speaker 2: police officers said, hmm, you know there's no light in here.

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Speaker 2: The electricity must have been cut off, but looks like

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Speaker 2: the guy committed suicide. Maybe that was just the last

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Speaker 2: straw having no electricity. So I went in and I

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Speaker 2: used his flashlight and my flashlight, and I did my examination.

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Speaker 2: You know, the guy was hanging, didn't look anything too unusual,

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Speaker 2: big heavy set fellow. Back then, this is in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety two or ninety three, we used polaroid cameras, nice

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Speaker 2: big flash and pictures that didn't last all that long,

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Speaker 2: but that's what we had. So I took all my

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Speaker 2: pictures and I examined him. I said, all right, looks

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Speaker 2: like a suicide. And then I went to do my usual,

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Speaker 2: which was to grab a buck knife out of my case,

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Speaker 2: and then i'd hold the ligature with my left hand

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Speaker 2: and just so I could steady him. Then i'd cut

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Speaker 2: the ligature and let him down, just so he wouldn't

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Speaker 2: crash down to the floor. Then I realized, wait a second, hmm,

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Speaker 2: I can't do this. My hands in a cast. I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: when the guys get here from the Morgue wagon, they

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Speaker 2: can cut him down. So I left him hanging there

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Speaker 2: in the dark, you know, no lights, no nothing, and

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Speaker 2: that poor police officer had to sit in there in

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Speaker 2: the dark and watch him sway and back and forth

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Speaker 2: in the little air condition breeze. So I got back

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Speaker 2: to my office and I'm writing my reports and I'm

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Speaker 2: looking at my photos and I see, hmm, this is interesting.

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Speaker 2: Under his neck the ligature was actually an outdoor extension cord,

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Speaker 2: those orange heavy duty ones. That's pretty good because that

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Speaker 2: won't break. And then the next photo I saw that

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Speaker 2: it was actually plugged in to the wall. Now wait

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Speaker 2: a second, why would his ligature this extension cord. Why

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Speaker 2: would it be plugged in and there's no electricity anyway.

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Speaker 2: Then it came to me, damn. I called a police

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Speaker 2: officer the scene. I said, look, don't let anybody cut

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Speaker 2: him down. He said why, I said, look, go screw

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Speaker 2: in the light bulbs check him. He went. A couple

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Speaker 2: seconds later he came back. He said, yeah, there's light.

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Speaker 2: The light bulbs were all loose. And then I explained

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Speaker 2: to him this guy in his suicide had plugged himself

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Speaker 2: into the wall and pretended there was no electricity, so

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Speaker 2: that whoever cut him down would be killed or hurt badly.

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Speaker 2: Because he was an angry suicide. It wasn't enough to

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Speaker 2: kill himself. He wanted to take somebody with him, And

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Speaker 2: if I didn't have my hand in a cast I

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Speaker 2: would have cut him down and been electrocuted.

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Speaker 1: Said the Morgan, New York. Kind of paint us a picture.

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Speaker 2: Well back when I first started, it was an absolute

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Speaker 2: hell hole. It's down in the basement and it's just

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Speaker 2: those green tile walls and then endless rows of more drawers,

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Speaker 2: a kind where you pull you pull out a drawer

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Speaker 2: and there's a body laying in there. Now, the problem

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Speaker 2: with that is now that those drawers were stacked like

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Speaker 2: three high, so it's hard to get the bodies up

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Speaker 2: and down. But more than that, behind the wall of

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Speaker 2: drawers there are just endless racks. They're all open, so

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Speaker 2: the maggots will fall down from the bodies and land

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Speaker 2: on the floor, and then they'll crawl off and develop

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Speaker 2: into poopa and then flies, and then birds come in

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Speaker 2: to eat those little maggots. So you could walk down

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Speaker 2: in the morgue any morning to go do daily rounds

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Speaker 2: and see what kind of cases were on the menu,

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Speaker 2: and you see little bluebirds and sparrows flying through the wall.

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Speaker 2: I used to call them the bluebirds of Happiness, just

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Speaker 2: for Irony's sake, but they were out there plucking maggots

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Speaker 2: off people and going in and out of those drawers.

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Speaker 2: The more tables were pretty cruddy, but a couple of

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Speaker 2: years later they finally renovated it and made big walk

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Speaker 2: in refrigerators so that we could at least wheel people

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Speaker 2: in and then put them on racks. But it was

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Speaker 2: easier to keep clean because that smell was mighty bad.

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Speaker 2: As you know.

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Speaker 1: Well, I asked her to paint a picture there you go.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's kind of funny sometimes when friends will

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Speaker 1: say to me, Hey, I'm watching this new show and

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Speaker 1: you know, the crime scene investigator pulls up to the

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Speaker 1: scene and there's the homicide detective and they're both real sexy,

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Speaker 1: and there's this sexual tension. Is it like that? I'm like, sugar,

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Speaker 1: it's just like that. Yes, it's exactly what it is.

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Speaker 1: And don't listen to Barbara Butcher.

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Speaker 2: That's right, night and day sex. Sex sex, that's all

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Speaker 2: it is.

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Speaker 1: That's all it is. That's what we do when we're

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Speaker 1: not somewhere having fabulous cocktails. You know it Sometimes when

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Speaker 1: I watch TV, it just makes me laugh. And then

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Speaker 1: when I get those questions, you know, it really makes

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Speaker 1: me laugh. And then when I hear you paint the

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Speaker 1: picture of the morgue, I'm like, well, she's gonna break

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Speaker 1: some hearts when she starts talking. But you know, one

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Speaker 1: interesting thing about your job as a medical examiner death

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Speaker 1: investigator that I think people don't always attribute to y'all

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Speaker 1: is y'all help save lives too, because y'all are exposed

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Speaker 1: to things long before the general public and sometimes law

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Speaker 1: enforcement has even put together. So talk about things like

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Speaker 1: car accidents and the seat you know, seat belts because

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Speaker 1: y'all see what the steering.

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Speaker 2: Wheel will do. Yeah, that's one of the things that

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Speaker 2: you know, kept the job. It made me happy. It

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Speaker 2: kept the job a little lighter. And that was that

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Speaker 2: medical examiners and investigators were the ones seeing little kids

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Speaker 2: go out the windows in New York City. So we

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Speaker 2: reported it, collected the data, and then epidemiologists said, yeah,

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Speaker 2: they're right, there's too many. So they made a law

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Speaker 2: for window guards if you have a child in the home.

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Speaker 2: Same thing with seat belts. Medical examiners and investigators see

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Speaker 2: the injuries in the chest, the reason you need shoulder

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Speaker 2: belts and the air bags. And then there's the crazy

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Speaker 2: things like subway surfing. You know, I describe in the

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Speaker 2: book The Sports of New York Now subway surfing is

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Speaker 2: one of the most dangerous sports in the world. That's

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Speaker 2: when you jump on the back of a subway and

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Speaker 2: then you climb up on top and you ride through

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Speaker 2: those tunnels. Maybe your head gets knocked off by a

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Speaker 2: piece of equipment, maybe it doesn't. Maybe you try jumping

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Speaker 2: from one subway to another one that's going even in

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Speaker 2: the opposite direction. I've seen and these kids they ride

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Speaker 2: the subways. There's about oh, I think we've got four

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Speaker 2: deaths this year, or is it three, whatever it is,

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Speaker 2: even if it's one death, I mean just telling the

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Speaker 2: public about things like this, that there is subway surfing,

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Speaker 2: there's elevator surfing. That's where you jump from one elevator

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Speaker 2: car or the other back and forth. You know, this

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Speaker 2: is these are crazy things that kill people. And then

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Speaker 2: of course it's stuff like you know, COVID or AB

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Speaker 2: and flu and you know, various diseases that we notice

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Speaker 2: a sudden uptick and deaths. So yeah, we did. We

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Speaker 2: get together. We got to do some good in the world.

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Speaker 1: And you mentioned earlier when you first started how you

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Speaker 1: were kind of treated. But I will tell you I

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Speaker 1: was speaking to my buddy Scott Wagner just a couple

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Speaker 1: of days ago, and in mid sentence he stops and says,

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Speaker 1: you got to connect with Barbara Butcher. And I told

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Speaker 1: him you don't already have I promise you she's going

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Speaker 1: to be on Zone seven. But the level of respect

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Speaker 1: that he has for you just resonated with every accolade

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Speaker 1: that he gave you and every just I mean, he

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Speaker 1: just used every glowing word he could think of to

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Speaker 1: describe you and working with you. And I want you

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about you know, once you

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Speaker 1: kind of make your bones, so to speak, working with

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Speaker 1: the guys, working with the media, working you know, with

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Speaker 1: even other experts. But again, you are so revered and

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Speaker 1: renowned that I think any advice from you as far

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Speaker 1: as hey, this is how you make your way.

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Speaker 2: God, that's so. You know, you're making me cry a

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Speaker 2: little bit here. I miss those days so bad. Oh

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Speaker 2: my god, Oh, well, I longed to be out on

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Speaker 2: the street with the guys again, and then the men

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Speaker 2: and women of NYPD just such a great, great team.

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Speaker 2: But you know, it did take me a little time

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Speaker 2: to make my bones, as you say, and that I

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Speaker 2: think was based on a couple of things. One is

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Speaker 2: being tough, not taking any nonsense, as I've described before,

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Speaker 2: but also really caring about my work and their work.

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Speaker 2: I studied all the time, I learned all the time.

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Speaker 2: I took advantage of every course there was, and I

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Speaker 2: did go to all the NYPD courses they're homicide, CIC,

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Speaker 2: special Victims, cold killings. I'd take my time off my

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Speaker 2: vacation time and use it to go to their courses.

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Speaker 2: They were fantastic. But I think the fact that when

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Speaker 2: I'm on scene, I'm focused because my responsibility is not

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Speaker 2: just to get justice for this victim, but answers for families.

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Speaker 2: And my job was to be a resource for the

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Speaker 2: police department to explain the physical findings, the medical findings

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Speaker 2: that they needed to do their job. And I have

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Speaker 2: great respect for their job, and I think that translated

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Speaker 2: back to respect for me. And I also enjoy teaching.

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Speaker 2: I love teaching, so whenever i'd go to a scene,

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Speaker 2: I'd wait for the crime scene guys to get there

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Speaker 2: before I started messing with the body, so i'd do

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Speaker 2: my scene photos, my measurements and all that, interview witnesses

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Speaker 2: when they got there. Then I'd examine the body and

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Speaker 2: point out to them every little thing I saw, Like,

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Speaker 2: you know, see, guys, how the abrasion and this gunshot

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Speaker 2: wound is on the lower corner here, see that, so

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Speaker 2: how we angle it up so he was shot from below?

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Speaker 2: Or you know, this doesn't match with a bullet impact mark,

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Speaker 2: so therefore we know this body was moved, and just

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Speaker 2: things like that, you know. Then they'd teach me some things,

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Speaker 2: and they'd say, Barbara, we're going to go in and

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Speaker 2: question this witness. You want to come with us? Hell, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I do. I want to do everything. Oh and even

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Speaker 2: though I'm kind of a scaredy cat now, I'm always

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Speaker 2: worried about disasters, having lived through several of them, back then,

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Speaker 2: I loved doing crazy things like going up in the

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Speaker 2: helicopter with the aviation guys and they take me out

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Speaker 2: over the beach, and then they'd know I'd be sitting

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Speaker 2: in that jump seat and just holding onto a strap

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Speaker 2: and they'd tilt the chopper so that I could get scared,

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Speaker 2: but then I just yell yahoo, you know, and they'd

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Speaker 2: keep doing it and they couldn't scare me. Or climbing

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Speaker 2: up on upon ladders to go up on top of

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Speaker 2: those bulkheads on Broute to find a gun that somebody

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Speaker 2: threw up there, or you know, body part someone jumped.

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Speaker 2: Or crawling in the tunnels beneath Manhattan to find the

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Speaker 2: caves where the mole people live. That was adventure. To me.

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Speaker 2: That was like Huckleberry finn stuff. And I think the

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Speaker 2: guys enjoyed that. I enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: So much, you know, with how question Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: Now you mentioned living through a couple of disasters, So

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about nineteen ninety three in the

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Speaker 1: World Trade Center bombing.

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Speaker 2: That this is going to Stalance. Sounds strange, but sometimes

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Speaker 2: scenes of great destruction are beautiful. They're so striking, so

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Speaker 2: outside the norm of our vision of our experience that

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Speaker 2: they're almost gorgeous. So in nineteen ninety three, a rider

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Speaker 2: truck drove into the garage of the World Trade Center

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Speaker 2: and set off an anphobomb fertilizer and it blew a

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Speaker 2: huge spherical hole of several acres across into the heart

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Speaker 2: of the World Trade Center. And now that day I

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Speaker 2: was supposed to be doing office work and you know,

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Speaker 2: working on hospital cases. So I had on a skirt

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Speaker 2: and heels, and my boss grabbed me and said, you

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Speaker 2: want to go down to the World Trade Center with me?

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Speaker 2: And bomb just went off. Well, hell, yeah, of course

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Speaker 2: I do. So I'm climbing through the brubble, and the

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Speaker 2: high heels helping me get a grip, you know, because

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Speaker 2: they dig into the brubble. And I'm so awestruck by

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Speaker 2: the sight of this huge crater with cars at the

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Speaker 2: bottom of it, with wires, you know, arcing, the electrical

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Speaker 2: bolt shooting out, and a huge water pipe must have

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Speaker 2: been two or three feet across, water pouring out of

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Speaker 2: it into the hole. And it's lit up by spotlights,

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Speaker 2: so everything is shining and glowing and pulsing with energy

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Speaker 2: and destruction and force. And my boss and I are

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Speaker 2: both all struck, and we're standing at the edge of

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Speaker 2: the crater, and suddenly I see about ten feet to

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Speaker 2: my right as a guy also standing at the edge

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Speaker 2: of the crater, and he starts slipping down its starting

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Speaker 2: to be like a little landslide. So we jumped back

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Speaker 2: and we're just standing there with our mouths open, and

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Speaker 2: then my boss said, Barber, there's some people down there.

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Speaker 2: I said, yep, oh, I guess I've gotter changed my clothes,

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Speaker 2: and I did, and we went down there and we

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Speaker 2: found the first five people. Only six people died. Can

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Speaker 2: you imagine that a bomb of that size, of that magnitude,

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Speaker 2: and only six people died, thank god. And we found

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Speaker 2: the first five very quickly, and then it took about

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Speaker 2: maybe a week to find the last person. But I

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Speaker 2: was down there day, digging around in the rubble and

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Speaker 2: just completely knocked out by the magnitude of destruction. It

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Speaker 2: was the biggest thing I've ever seen.

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Speaker 1: I was in charge of the crisis response team for

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Speaker 1: the Olympic Games in Atlanta, which would have been nothing

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Speaker 1: to anybody except we had a bomb. And it was

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Speaker 1: the largest pipe bomb in North America at the time.

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Speaker 1: And the way he had positioned it, he wanted it

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Speaker 1: to implode and then explode, which would have caused that

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Speaker 1: entire tower to come down and then shrapnel would have

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Speaker 1: been devastating. But because the young people that found it

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Speaker 1: kicked it over. It became almost like a roaming candle

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Speaker 1: just straight out and only killed Alice Hawthorne. But to

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Speaker 1: your point, it was one of those scenes that you

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Speaker 1: can't really describe because the magnitude that it was and

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Speaker 1: the magnitude that it could have been, it's parallel in

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Speaker 1: your mind as you're working.

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Speaker 2: It's a strange feeling. It's a feeling of awe in

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Speaker 2: so many different directions. You know, awe at the destruction

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Speaker 2: and awe at the fact that humans could survive it.

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Speaker 1: And you and I have another thing in common a

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Speaker 1: little bit, and that's nine to eleven. During nine to eleven,

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Speaker 1: I was sent to the Pentagon with the crisis response

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Speaker 1: team while you were probably working World Trade Center again, yep,

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Speaker 1: and that's a case that talk about the magnitude you

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Speaker 1: had the unbelievable job of identifying people from body parts.

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Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about that again.

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Speaker 2: It's awe inspiring to go down there and see skyscrapers,

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Speaker 2: the tallest skyscrapers reduced to just acres and acres of rubble.

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Speaker 2: To look at a place there that maybe just a

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Speaker 2: couple of weeks before, I had been up on the

401
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Speaker 2: top of the World Trade Center for a date, and

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Speaker 2: we were sitting there sipping on drinks or water in

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Speaker 2: my case, and looking out at the sunset, and it

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Speaker 2: was just romantic and beautiful. And now the piano that

405
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Speaker 2: had been up there, the bar, the bartenders, the people,

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Speaker 2: they're all at the bottom of a pit or in

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Speaker 2: a pile of rubble that was burning. So I went

408
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Speaker 2: down there, and again I was just awestruck, standing there

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Speaker 2: with my mouth open. And we had pretty much reports

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Speaker 2: of just under three thousand people dead, but they were

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Speaker 2: represented by more than twenty five thousand body parts and fragments,

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Speaker 2: and that was how we identified sixty percent of them.

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Speaker 2: The other forty percent who have never been identified. Now

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Speaker 2: after twenty two years, maybe they were vaporized. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: But so great were the forces, so overwhelming was the

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Speaker 2: magnitude of this attack that it just vaporized people into

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Speaker 2: absolute nothingness. And you may have heard the expression that

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Speaker 2: one death is a tragedy and a thousand deaths is

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Speaker 2: a statistic. Well, I'll tell you something. If you're crawling

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Speaker 2: around on that rubble looking for body parts and you

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Speaker 2: see a desk calendar that says lunch with Jim Tuesday,

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Speaker 2: or a little I found, like a little desk set

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Speaker 2: with a pen in it and a golf ball. It

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00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 2: was a souvenir of a holy one and that something

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Speaker 2: that that person who was so proud of and had

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Speaker 2: on their desk, or the worst graduation picture from elementary school,

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Speaker 2: somebody's kids. So it's not a statistic. Every one of

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Speaker 2: those little possessions defines a person, and that person is

429
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 2: a universe. They have feelings and thoughts and relationships, families, mothers, fathers, sisters, wives, husbands.

430
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,719
Speaker 2: Each of them is the universe. And when you're crawling

431
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 2: around there on that rubble, it becomes very, very apparent

432
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 2: to you just how important every single life is. And I,

433
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: you know, I say that nine to eleven ruined me.

434
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure I was ruined long before from

435
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 2: all the the tragedies I had seen. I was already

436
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: starting to get a little crazy, but nine to eleven

437
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 2: just knocked it way out of the park. That was bad.

438
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 2: That was real bad.

439
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: Again, you can't describe it to people. And I remember

440
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: one of the folks from our team that had been

441
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: in New York came and met us in Washington and

442
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: he said that he was talking to a police officer

443
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: right there in the center of it, and he said.

444
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: The police officer turned to him and he said, see

445
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: those people two streets over, he said, don't they even

446
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: know what happened? Like they're going on about their life,

447
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,719
Speaker 1: They're shopping, they're going to brunch, they're doing these things

448
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: like we're not two streets over here.

449
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 2: Isn't that something when you're in the middle of the

450
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 2: worst chaos that human beings can inflict on each other,

451
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 2: and then you look a few feet away and there's

452
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 2: somebody over at the Levis store buying jeans. Perspective, Yeah,

453
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 2: there's a reality smack yep that hits you every so often.

454
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: I mean, any of us in this job, or these jobs,

455
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: police first responders, police fire EMTs, or last responders like me,

456
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 2: you know, you see these things that are so puzzling,

457
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: so damaging, so tragic, and then you look around and

458
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: the world's going on. But meanwhile, in our minds, the

459
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 2: world is full of destruction and evil and terrifying things

460
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: just waiting to happen. Because that's what we see all

461
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 2: day long. You do four or five cases a day,

462
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: you start to think everybody's a damn murderer or a victim.

463
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: And then you come home and your partner says, well,

464
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: I'm thinking we should plan a vacation. Why don't you

465
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 2: start looking at airfares? And I'm like, what the what

466
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: are you talking about? Do you know what I saw?

467
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: To right? Dahiti ain't gonna get that out of my head,

468
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna go anyway. It's worth a shot. But

469
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: you know, it's funny because you just said something that

470
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: is so true. A lot of times people will say, well,

471
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: as a first responder, and I will often correct them.

472
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: I'm a crime scene investigator. I'm a last responder. You know,

473
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,239
Speaker 1: I'm the last shot of getting that evidence. And you

474
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: are too. You're you're after me, so you're the last

475
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: last shot. And I take that job very seriously.

476
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: We get justice for people, and we prevent people from

477
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: going on and killing again and again and again.

478
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: Y'all see why I love and adore this woman. I mean,

479
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: everything you say is so true, and I know you

480
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: know the accolades and all that, you're not here for it,

481
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: but again, I just want to say, you are a hero,

482
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: and you're a hero to so many people, not just

483
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: law enforcement, but anybody out there suffering with addiction. I mean,

484
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: you give so much hope, and you give disrespect to

485
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: the job. You give respect to recovery, which I don't

486
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: think is done enough. And in our world in law enforcement,

487
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: there needs to be so much help and understanding with addiction.

488
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: So again I want to thank you on several levels.

489
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: But again for me. You know, I'm talking to one

490
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: of my heroes, and this has just been a fantastic,

491
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: fantastic time for me, and I just appreciate you so much.

492
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, Thank you so much. Your aunt means

493
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 2: a lot to me. And don't get me all crying now,

494
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: you know that's not my style.

495
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: Well, if you ever come through Atlanta, I got a

496
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: police car with some blue lights, we will go take

497
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: a ride.

498
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 2: I like that.

499
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: I will pick you up at the airport and I

500
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: will change your life. It'll be awesome. I'm going to

501
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: end Zone seven the way that I always do with

502
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: a quote. This quote comes from Patricia Cornwell where she writes,

503
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: with Kay Scarpetta number twenty one, you don't ever get

504
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: over it. I think some things you won't get over.

505
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: Not ever, you can't. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is

506
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: Zone seven a