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Speaker 1: I don't understand you never know stories of things. We
Speaker 1: simply don't know the answer too. Well. Here there, welcome
Speaker 1: to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, joined as
Speaker 1: always by Devin and Steve. We're back. I know it's
Speaker 1: seems like a long time, but it's only been a week, folks.
Speaker 1: That's how much you love our episodes. Uh, this week
Speaker 1: where I can continue our October a series of Thinking
Speaker 1: Sideways Most wanted, meaning the mysteries that you people all
Speaker 1: voted to have us talk about. So this is like
Speaker 1: remember what four on the list? I think? So the
Speaker 1: third runner up to third runner up in like beauty
Speaker 1: pageant says, how do you do it? You've the first
Speaker 1: runner up in the the first place, or a winner.
Speaker 1: I just find it easier just to say one through five.
Speaker 1: But okay, well last week was fourth runner up. So
Speaker 1: well that's because you decided to call doing my way.
Speaker 1: We screwed it up my way. Al right, back to
Speaker 1: our mystery. Yeah, we're gonna be talking about an event
Speaker 1: that took place in nineteen sixty had a place called
Speaker 1: Lake Bottom in Finland. There was a little bit of
Speaker 1: unpleasantness at this lake and we won't go into it
Speaker 1: any further than that because it's scary and gross. End
Speaker 1: of episode. Yeah, thanks for listening. Yeah, thanks for voting
Speaker 1: to All Right, so we're looking at We're gonna be
Speaker 1: looking to the Lake Bottom murders, which is the greatest
Speaker 1: don stall of crime in the history of Finland. All
Speaker 1: our story begins June four, nineteen sixty four. Teenagers set
Speaker 1: up from the town of Espo, Finland, on their motorcyclist
Speaker 1: to go into camping trip. Their destination was Lake Bottom,
Speaker 1: which is just to the north of town, so they
Speaker 1: didn't have to go too far. But it turns out
Speaker 1: there camping there it just wasn't a good idea at all. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean it usually it was, wasn't it kind of
Speaker 1: like a local teen hangout. Actually teenagers did the party. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it actually still is a popular place and
Speaker 1: you know, sweating fishing, you know, camping, drinking a little booze.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, so yeah, it's so people have not been
Speaker 1: to Turred. I guess there's still there and hanging out. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The four teenagers in that we're talking about, we're finished,
Speaker 1: of course, which means that they have un pronounceable names.
Speaker 1: So what are we going to him instead? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: know I'm going to call him Larry, Fred, Giselle, and Trudy.
Speaker 1: Right close enough? All right, I'm probably gonna miss pronounced
Speaker 1: every name, every place name, every person's name in this episode. Sorry,
Speaker 1: but that's the way it goes. People who know this
Speaker 1: language admit it's kind of a tough language. Give it
Speaker 1: your best, Joe. Our four teenagers. Hear their names is
Speaker 1: like the best I can say them Your Molly Yorkland, Anya, Mokei, Seppa, Boiseman, Nils, Gustav.
Speaker 1: He has the easiest. Yeah, this is easy. I just goodness. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It turns out Moley and on Ya we're both fifteen
Speaker 1: year old girls. Sepa and Nils were eighteen, and one
Speaker 1: of them were was dating there there. Yes, Steppa had
Speaker 1: been dating on for about a year, so I guess
Speaker 1: I started dating when she was fourteen. I thought you
Speaker 1: was seventeen, it was sixty. Things were kind of a
Speaker 1: gray area then. I still think it's a little weird,
Speaker 1: but standards, but well, I don't know what the laws
Speaker 1: are in Finland. Maybe it's perfectly a little bubboard. Maybe Yeah,
Speaker 1: Neils have been dating your your Molly for a month. Anyway,
Speaker 1: there they're they're seting out their camp on a small
Speaker 1: peninsula that's down to the southwest corner of the lake.
Speaker 1: Peninsula is called Emmy, which it finished means murder Peninsula.
Speaker 1: Was they always called that? I don't know, I don't.
Speaker 1: I doubt it. It's called that since then. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: would be awesome if it always that's the question, right,
Speaker 1: It's like, was some did some teenagers think, you know,
Speaker 1: we're a great place to camp Murder Point? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: campers always killed cabin let's go there. Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: got that off of Google naps are actually Google Google Earth,
Speaker 1: you know how they slapped place names and on various things,
Speaker 1: and yeah, that was on there. So I translated it
Speaker 1: and that's what I said. Yeah, I'm not surprised he
Speaker 1: has a name like that. Yeah. So, uh, they hung out,
Speaker 1: hung out and did camping kind of things, and then
Speaker 1: about went to bed. You remember, you gotta remember that
Speaker 1: Finland is way far north, so sunset on June four
Speaker 1: would have been around ten thirty. So they went to
Speaker 1: bed about sunset, yeah, because well sunrise is real early too. Well.
Speaker 1: And the thing, I don't know if a lot of
Speaker 1: people have spent time in kind of the northern regions.
Speaker 1: I suppose many of our listeners have. If you haven't,
Speaker 1: there's also a huge discrepancy between like sunset and then
Speaker 1: there's like a couple hours of dusk right before it
Speaker 1: gets like really really dark, and then it's dark for
Speaker 1: just a couple of hours before it starts to be
Speaker 1: dawn on a good night, on a good night, yeah,
Speaker 1: and then the sun rises. So that's another thing to
Speaker 1: keep in mind while I'll tell the story, is that
Speaker 1: it would have been light out for the bulk of
Speaker 1: the night as well. I think I think it actually
Speaker 1: said on that same page that you got the sunset
Speaker 1: at ten thirty. I think it said that full dark
Speaker 1: was at midnight or something like that. It was dark
Speaker 1: for like three hours. Yeah, and then and then the
Speaker 1: sunrise is in the morning. That sounds right, right, So
Speaker 1: you read that too. Yeah, I remember that the sun rose.
Speaker 1: So it makes sense it really in this case, I'd say, what,
Speaker 1: there's four hours between sun set in sunrise, I'd say
Speaker 1: full dark is almost nil at that point. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I guess you get used to it. I suppose
Speaker 1: you get used to sleeping when it's light out. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm sure they were used to that, but that's probably
Speaker 1: why they went to bed at about sunset, knowing they
Speaker 1: would try to sleep when it was dark as at least. Yeah, exactly. Okay,
Speaker 1: back to our story. That just was a large canvas
Speaker 1: pup pup tent. As I'm sure you all know camp.
Speaker 1: A pup tent is supported by a pole at either end,
Speaker 1: and then the pole is held in place by a
Speaker 1: rope that goes down to a stake in the ground
Speaker 1: right there on two ends on each on either end. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like the quintessential tent. Yeah, that's kind of yeah, one
Speaker 1: of the old school canvas. I think of it as
Speaker 1: like a Wes Anderson tent. But that's just because that's
Speaker 1: my frame of reference from mid century. So yeah, yeah, sorry,
Speaker 1: I actually had a pup tent when I was a kid.
Speaker 1: I used it a lot, camped a lot more back then. Well,
Speaker 1: there's less murders. Yeah, that's yeah, I think that you
Speaker 1: knew of Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people just moved
Speaker 1: unannounced immediately with leaving all of their stuff behind. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna go camping and then moved. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: must have moved those ox after stuff. So back to
Speaker 1: our spot of unpleasantness, Pinsula, let's refer to it by
Speaker 1: its real name. Yeah, that pleasantness took place in daylight
Speaker 1: because the attack happened between four and six am, and
Speaker 1: at that time, a person or possibly persons cut the
Speaker 1: lines at both ends of the tent. The tent collapsed
Speaker 1: on our sleeping protagonists and then and then again while
Speaker 1: person or two persons attacked them with the blood object
Speaker 1: in a knife that poundered on their heads and stabbed
Speaker 1: them through the canvas. It's unclear what the blood object was.
Speaker 1: It could have been a rock or it could have
Speaker 1: been a pipe and those gustus And appears to have
Speaker 1: been the only one of the four to actually crawl
Speaker 1: out of the tent, but he was brought down by
Speaker 1: blows to the head and slashed to the forehead, and
Speaker 1: he wound up laying unconscious on top of the tent.
Speaker 1: When the tent had the other bodies inside of it.
Speaker 1: I thought one of the other girls was also like
Speaker 1: at least partially out of the tent. Yeah, one of
Speaker 1: his his um, Molly, I've heard it in one place.
Speaker 1: I heard that she was she was either partially or
Speaker 1: completely out of the tent. And also her her pants
Speaker 1: or skirt whatever she was wearing was gone. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: I remember reading, and I think this helps kind of
Speaker 1: describe some of this is pop tenser. You know, you
Speaker 1: lay in them and you're kind of like a log,
Speaker 1: you're laying in a row. And if I remember correctly,
Speaker 1: it was the boys were on the outsides of the tent,
Speaker 1: so one on either side, and then the girls were
Speaker 1: side by side in the center. I thought it was
Speaker 1: a reverse. I thought it was the guys on the
Speaker 1: inside and the girls on the outside, because I that's
Speaker 1: well the way I had heard it was that it
Speaker 1: was the guys were on the outside or read it,
Speaker 1: I should say, And I got I couldn't tell which
Speaker 1: direction they were sleeping, because that pup tent, when you
Speaker 1: look at it, is pretty damn small. Yeah, so I
Speaker 1: was trying to figure out how they were stacked in there.
Speaker 1: Were they on their sides were they all kind of
Speaker 1: at a ninety degree angle with their legs bend from
Speaker 1: the spine. They probably were all just stacked in a row,
Speaker 1: just in a row for our gains and a can right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's kind of And the tent when I saw it,
Speaker 1: and maybe this was just for some of the reason,
Speaker 1: it had tears in it, But it seemed like both
Speaker 1: ends by the peaks, both ends had tears of stabs
Speaker 1: and ribs and them. Is that when you saw what
Speaker 1: I saw? Yeah, plus a really big hole torn in it, right,
Speaker 1: and a bunch of blood. It looked like all on
Speaker 1: one side, all the tears were happening. On the one
Speaker 1: side it was still intact. Yeah. You know, I haven't
Speaker 1: seen a picture of both sides of the town. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've only seen it from one side. Yeah, but it
Speaker 1: looks like there was it was canvas through. I just
Speaker 1: mean that, like when you looked at that picture, it
Speaker 1: was it looked like there was canvas on the other side, Oh,
Speaker 1: the back side of the tent that we couldn't see,
Speaker 1: or the opposite side of it. Yeah, probably that the
Speaker 1: poles when the ropes were kind of went in and
Speaker 1: then that one shows aside and just both went down
Speaker 1: one side of the other so one side could tipped
Speaker 1: away from us, Yeah, and on over their bodies and
Speaker 1: then just started pounding away with his blood object, which
Speaker 1: would explain why only one of the two sides of
Speaker 1: the pitch of the tent had the holes in it.
Speaker 1: That makes sense. But what I don't get is if
Speaker 1: they are being assaulted that much. And like I said,
Speaker 1: it seemed like that side of the pitch, the left
Speaker 1: and right side of it had holes in it, so
Speaker 1: it wasn't like they were going for what they expected
Speaker 1: to be the heads. And I got the impression that
Speaker 1: whoever was doing the attacking didn't know where their heads
Speaker 1: were in the tent, so kind of went after both sides.
Speaker 1: You could have jumped on top of them and felt
Speaker 1: aroun until he found and found the head and then bash.
Speaker 1: You know that that might have been the way, and
Speaker 1: it could have forgotten cut in the struggle with Nell's
Speaker 1: trying to get out of the tent. Yeah. Well, and
Speaker 1: that's the thing, and that's what that's what led me
Speaker 1: to this whole thing, is if he gets out, how
Speaker 1: did he get out of the tent, because obviously he
Speaker 1: couldn't have gone through the flap, he would have had
Speaker 1: gone through all the holes that was kind well, that's
Speaker 1: one of those holes was definitely way big enough for
Speaker 1: him to get out, right. But that's why I'm wondering
Speaker 1: if the girl, um what is her name again or Molly,
Speaker 1: I'm almost wondering if she didn't necessarily actually climb out
Speaker 1: as much as kind of half to get drug out
Speaker 1: as he was scrambling out, or maybe the killer drugger
Speaker 1: out afterwards. True, Yeah, we don't know. Niel's actually doesn't
Speaker 1: remember anything in the attack. Weird got hit real hard
Speaker 1: on the head or yea to keep cashion, Yeah, he
Speaker 1: got hit both, just because this is important later, right,
Speaker 1: he did front and back pretty hard, shattered his jaw. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: I just want to make sure that we've said that
Speaker 1: he got whale. I will bring that up later. He
Speaker 1: was seriously injured, but he did survive the attack. He
Speaker 1: had to go to the hospital, of course. Uh, they
Speaker 1: had to list his injuries. He had to blow to
Speaker 1: the back of the head, which gave him a wound
Speaker 1: or in a lump back there that which probably is
Speaker 1: what gave him his concussion, and then his jaw was
Speaker 1: shattered and in the hospital. It looked like his eye
Speaker 1: was puffed up too. Yeah, I don't know if that's
Speaker 1: just a side effect of getting your josh added if
Speaker 1: you got Okay, that's what I and I'm gonna ask
Speaker 1: these questions a couple of times because the research is
Speaker 1: a little spotty in places, at least in English to
Speaker 1: find the answer. So do we know where from where
Speaker 1: his jaw was shattered? Was it on from the side
Speaker 1: of the mandible? Was it from the point of the chin.
Speaker 1: I got the impression it was on the side. I
Speaker 1: got the impression it was on the side also, Okay,
Speaker 1: So that would explain why if you get hit hard
Speaker 1: enough to break your your jaw, why your eyes going
Speaker 1: to swell up? Yeah? Probably Yeah, especially if you were
Speaker 1: laying on your side, because that's where the blood would
Speaker 1: pool more. If you had any kind of internal bleeding. Well,
Speaker 1: was the swollen I are you saying he was laying
Speaker 1: on the brake after the fact, Yeah, okay, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, yeah, it also helped. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I was just thinking a blow hard enough to show Again,
Speaker 1: I may just be making this up. I'm doing the
Speaker 1: same that we just don't know uh, at the time
Speaker 1: of the attack was determined by the temperature stiffness of
Speaker 1: the bodies, which is usually the way they do that.
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, And as to what the blood object was,
Speaker 1: it's hard to say what it was without radiomedical examiner's report.
Speaker 1: Getting hit with a pipe is it's going to leave
Speaker 1: a different wound and getting hit with a rock, although
Speaker 1: that I think about using a big rock said of
Speaker 1: a pipeus, it's really easy to get rid of your
Speaker 1: murder weapon, especially if you're right next to a late
Speaker 1: he just tossed in the lake. Yeah, so that's the
Speaker 1: argument pavor of using a rock. Plus, you know, I
Speaker 1: do know if this was a well planned attack, I
Speaker 1: feel it's just a spur of the moment thing. Lots
Speaker 1: of lots of us are likely to have a knife
Speaker 1: auto steady given time. Most of us aren't gonna have
Speaker 1: a knife and a lead pipe. Probably not I do,
Speaker 1: but that's me. Yeah, that's because you don't like to
Speaker 1: watch your car by yourself. Yeah, because you guys keep
Speaker 1: scaring me these creepy stories. Nills was even he couldn't
Speaker 1: remember it, but he was hypnotized after Yeah, and he
Speaker 1: identified the optects then as a pipe or a cylinder,
Speaker 1: but I'm not sure how serious it should take that.
Speaker 1: Are we going to talk about what he said when
Speaker 1: he was hypnotized? Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I definitely we
Speaker 1: will definitely talk about that, even though again I'm not
Speaker 1: sure how seriously we should take this hypnosis stuff. We've
Speaker 1: talked about that before. Sometime not long after the murders,
Speaker 1: two young boys who apparently were at bird watching that
Speaker 1: happened by the camp site. They noticed a tent and
Speaker 1: Nils lying on it. But apparently they just assumed that
Speaker 1: he was taking a snooze in the sun because they
Speaker 1: just they just it have wandered on. But before they
Speaker 1: well they were they were first attracted by the motorcycles.
Speaker 1: Well apparently that was that was part of what they
Speaker 1: said that they were interested in the motorcycles also, and
Speaker 1: so they saw him laying there, and they also saw
Speaker 1: a blonde man walking away from the camps that toward
Speaker 1: the lake and then that they molted on. Were they
Speaker 1: were they the ones that helped to provide the sketches
Speaker 1: of the blonde man. Yeah, no, they didn't see the
Speaker 1: blond man's face. He was back to them. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: just wanted to make sure. Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: If I don't, I think it was actually Nils. He
Speaker 1: provided did the sketches, and the sketches came out really
Speaker 1: kind of funky looking. Yeah, it didn't look like a
Speaker 1: human being. Hopefully we'll post pictures. They're creepy. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and I don't. I can't imagine any human being who
Speaker 1: looks like that, So that's the strange thing. The pure Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: look like a giant forehead maybe yea, and a huge
Speaker 1: seventies hulk. Yeah, maybe, Sorry, it's okay. Our blonde guy.
Speaker 1: The blond man was also seen by a guy who
Speaker 1: was fishing nearby some some set on the farther shore.
Speaker 1: But that could mean like since you were in a peninsula,
Speaker 1: you know, that could mean just like right over here,
Speaker 1: you know, how to treat. Probably was reasonably close if
Speaker 1: it was a far far shore of the lake. Well,
Speaker 1: this this is a big lake. It's like half a
Speaker 1: mile across. That had to be close. It had to
Speaker 1: be kind of close. But we don't know for sure
Speaker 1: if it was the same guy. Because of the population
Speaker 1: of Finland is blonde, so uh, you know, there's kind
Speaker 1: of a commonality there. Yeah, it didn't add as it happened,
Speaker 1: Neils laid there unconscious until eleven am on. Somebody was
Speaker 1: jogging by. His name was Reto swim team. I hearned it.
Speaker 1: It was some swimmers or something. There was something swimming.
Speaker 1: I I heard a lot of contradictory things that this
Speaker 1: is the guy that I had heard. It was a
Speaker 1: single guy who was who was a carpenter by trade,
Speaker 1: who was out for a jog. That's what I heard.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know where I I thought
Speaker 1: I read somewhere it was swimmers or a swim team
Speaker 1: or thing. Yeah, but somebody well it was a swim
Speaker 1: achieve of carpenters. Yeah. Yeah, So he came by. He
Speaker 1: noticed that he noticed the scene, and he went over
Speaker 1: and checked and noticed that that Nils was injured, and
Speaker 1: there appeared to be bodies in the tent. And he
Speaker 1: might have noticed also his girlfriend lying next to him
Speaker 1: on top of the tent. It is a tent covered
Speaker 1: in blood, yeah, and as blood. So they cat He
Speaker 1: calls the police. Then word gets out around town. Espo
Speaker 1: was not a really huge town. Uh work going around fast.
Speaker 1: Everybody from Espo came out and started walking around through
Speaker 1: the woods looking for clues or evidence or murder weapons um.
Speaker 1: And surprisingly the local police were okay with that. But
Speaker 1: I guess it might be that they just didn't have
Speaker 1: a lot of resources on the police force, you know,
Speaker 1: to actually call like combed through the woods themselves, so
Speaker 1: they got the locals to do it and seem like
Speaker 1: this is something they deal with on a regular also,
Speaker 1: and to that point, right that they would think, well,
Speaker 1: clearly nobody from our community could have done this, so
Speaker 1: they wouldn't be trying to cover it up, so they
Speaker 1: can help. That's fine, right, that innocent thought process. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that is a that's a good point. You know, you
Speaker 1: want the first thing you want to do is get
Speaker 1: on that combing team. You were the murder. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that is not uncommon. Yeah, that's not You can get
Speaker 1: out there and coming through the woods looking for the
Speaker 1: murder just like happened upon it and then just happened
Speaker 1: and like not reported. Yeah. The police will started going
Speaker 1: through the personal effects of the victims and they found
Speaker 1: that some of the some of the stuff was missing,
Speaker 1: like the wallets and the swimsuits. Also Nils and Seppo
Speaker 1: shoes were gone and the swimsuits. Maybe it can be
Speaker 1: explained because I hear like bottom is very cold, and
Speaker 1: so maybe they weren't planning on swimming at all. Where
Speaker 1: did I read something about Nils was talking. There's there's
Speaker 1: some interview or there's some transcript of him talking about
Speaker 1: the fact that I swear it was him. He had
Speaker 1: gone down to the water, he was going to go
Speaker 1: swim the hypnotism interview, and the other guy was fishing,
Speaker 1: and then he decided not to swim because it's so cold,
Speaker 1: which would mean that his swim gear had disappeared. Alternately, though,
Speaker 1: if he had gotten it wet, or if they had
Speaker 1: gone swimming at all. You know, when I go swimming
Speaker 1: at a lake, I lay my swim clothes out, like
Speaker 1: on the lake shore where it's sunniest and more missed,
Speaker 1: or hang from a branch, you know, yeah, something like
Speaker 1: that to dry. So if they had gone in and
Speaker 1: been like, well, I'm just kidding, it's way too cold,
Speaker 1: you take that thing off and lay it out to
Speaker 1: dry somewhere, So that would also account for true. But
Speaker 1: I I mean most people do it close to camp. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. And I'm sure they searched the shore. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, so you would think they would have found
Speaker 1: if they were laying around there, but they might they
Speaker 1: just maybe they didn't bring any at all. And I
Speaker 1: I you talked about the shoes were missing. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: and what I know, those come up later on, and
Speaker 1: I just want to make sure people understand that the
Speaker 1: shoes were missing, which is weird that we're definitely missing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's that's still kind of inexplicable. Yeah, that's really weird.
Speaker 1: Actually the wallets being gone my point of this being
Speaker 1: a robbery with a little murder throw until on the end.
Speaker 1: It's hard to say. But also they were eighteen and fifteen, respectively,
Speaker 1: so like it wouldn't be much. Yeah, you can't be
Speaker 1: that good of a motive. Motive. Yeah, and actually I
Speaker 1: have to admit I've only heard about the missing Wallace
Speaker 1: from one source. Again, this story is a little different
Speaker 1: everywhere you read it, and it's hard to I think
Speaker 1: finish is hard. I know Google Translate has a really
Speaker 1: hard time with finish. We were talking about there's a
Speaker 1: really great with like a very as far as I
Speaker 1: can tell, exhaustive Wikipedia article in Finnish about this, and
Speaker 1: you know, you tell, okay, Chrome translate this and you
Speaker 1: do you get sentences where it's like the man's chin
Speaker 1: was afternoon and un rock like appearance, and it's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know what that means. I'm sorry, I don't know,
Speaker 1: or you're trying to tell me right now. So there's
Speaker 1: there's that difficulty as well. Yeah, there's a uh. I
Speaker 1: translated another out the Wicked finished page into into English
Speaker 1: and I had a similar result. I was able to
Speaker 1: actually get some it was. It wasn't completely unintelligible, but
Speaker 1: it was that this one was about a double murder
Speaker 1: that happened the year before. Were not too far from
Speaker 1: like bottom Well, certainly not every sentence is that way,
Speaker 1: but there are some sentences where you're just like that.
Speaker 1: But I think that's part of the reason that every
Speaker 1: version in English that you read is a little different,
Speaker 1: because people are translating it themselves, either because they know
Speaker 1: some of the language or they're using a translation tool.
Speaker 1: And yeah, that must not be important, that's fine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's got to be somebody after who speaks both English
Speaker 1: and Finnish. I think there's a couple of them well,
Speaker 1: and I don't, but I I don't know finish well
Speaker 1: enough to know if it's you know, a partially tonal language,
Speaker 1: if there's some sort of well this word means something
Speaker 1: fiction with a certain inflection. And if it's all written,
Speaker 1: like all the transcripts are written, then like you're kind
Speaker 1: of just s O L that's that's true. Or if
Speaker 1: it was written wrong or the spelling was different, or
Speaker 1: there was a dialect or you know, had bad handwriting,
Speaker 1: also possible. Yeah, so those are all points Nielsen's separ
Speaker 1: Those shoes were finally found six hundred Yeah, they were found. Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: they were found six hundred south southwest of the campsite
Speaker 1: as the crow flies and almost eight hundred meters. If
Speaker 1: you walk on a path, how long would it take
Speaker 1: me to walk that far? That's a kilometer and a half.
Speaker 1: So were's your quats to? What about a mile? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean actually I guess a little more than a
Speaker 1: mile ballpark mile round Yeah, yeah, not too far. It's
Speaker 1: a long way to carry two pairs of shoes. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you mean just one way, do you mean just
Speaker 1: one way? It's just one way. That's that's a half mile.
Speaker 1: So you could do that. Yeah, yeah, you could do that,
Speaker 1: like you know, seven or eight minutes probably way, but
Speaker 1: maybe not as far as you want, Like it's through
Speaker 1: forest area, it's a path, so you know, you know
Speaker 1: where they want to walk at barefoot? Probably not right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily walking walking at barefoot if the killer
Speaker 1: picked these things up, right, But that's that's the point, right,
Speaker 1: is that, Like it's unlikely that the boys would have
Speaker 1: been like, well, I'll just leave our shoes here and
Speaker 1: walk barefoot back to can Proba. Yeah, highly unlikely, Okay,
Speaker 1: the sideswitch. I mean, if they left their campsite to
Speaker 1: go anywhere, I mean, they would have just gone down
Speaker 1: to the lake, right, I mean, and this was kind
Speaker 1: of way the south off the peninsula they were on.
Speaker 1: Many many accosts of this mystery said that it was
Speaker 1: only Nills shirts shoes that were taken. But actually I
Speaker 1: got this from finished source, which and so well, and
Speaker 1: I've actually seen stuff about the shoes, both pairs of
Speaker 1: shoes showing up in the coverage of the case against Nils,
Speaker 1: So I think that it's just been omitted from a
Speaker 1: bunch of places. Yeah, but it's good, good, fine, yeah,
Speaker 1: both Yeah, So both shoes were found, both sets of shoes,
Speaker 1: and it was just by canvassing, right, Yeah, And they
Speaker 1: weren't far off the path, It's like, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: like nails. When he was under hypnosis or something said
Speaker 1: oh and I know where our shoes right, No, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was I think it was people walking around and
Speaker 1: they found them and I don't believe they had blood
Speaker 1: on them. Okay, so they were taken after the murders.
Speaker 1: That's one of the things about the whole Nils didn't thing.
Speaker 1: That's just so weird to me. Huh, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of weirdness in that case. There's a lot of people
Speaker 1: and for a lot of people with nails, is still
Speaker 1: there number one guy, which is so weird. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: we'll talk more about that the cases gets Nils. But
Speaker 1: but speaking of that hypnosis that we were talking about
Speaker 1: a minute ago, he did describe the attacker while he
Speaker 1: was under said the attacker was midsized, with a round face,
Speaker 1: long blonde hair combed straight back. And I don't know
Speaker 1: if by long people had really long, because this is
Speaker 1: Nix and people men had short hair back on those days,
Speaker 1: so long could have just man like, you know, kind
Speaker 1: of long ish. I'm not really sure that it was
Speaker 1: a couple inches long, could have been long hair, Yeah,
Speaker 1: back in those days. He said. He had white teeth,
Speaker 1: so that's good, a straight nose and kind of thick lips.
Speaker 1: He had an acne on his forehead and cheeks and uh,
Speaker 1: and of course he saw him through that big hole
Speaker 1: in the side of the tent. He also said under hypnosis,
Speaker 1: said he tried to crawl out of the tent, and
Speaker 1: he crawled out, and then the attacker kicked him in
Speaker 1: the face. Yeah, Ki kicked him in the mouth, I think,
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure if that was what broke his
Speaker 1: jar or not. He said, Yeah, there were some other
Speaker 1: weird things he said when he was under hypnosis. But
Speaker 1: the thing about it is is, you know, you get
Speaker 1: hit in the head, you get a concussion. I mean,
Speaker 1: I could see. I don't have any faith that hypnosis
Speaker 1: can really restore lost memories, say, if your brain has
Speaker 1: suppressed them, I mean perhaps if you're going to suppress
Speaker 1: them because of trauma, but if you're not physically supressed, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: if you get bashed in the head and the face them,
Speaker 1: well yeah, you're you're you're sustaining a small amount at
Speaker 1: least of brain damage, and so I don't think you
Speaker 1: can restore those memories. I really have big doubts about
Speaker 1: the whole hypnosis thing. It was under hypnosis that he
Speaker 1: said the timeline right, that they had gone to bed
Speaker 1: at ten thirty, and then he said they woke up
Speaker 1: and both the boys went down to the lake and
Speaker 1: went fishing. Yeah, and then that was when he said, oh,
Speaker 1: I was gonna go swimming, but I decided not to.
Speaker 1: And then he said, oh, and then we came back
Speaker 1: and we went to bed again. Yeah, So I don't
Speaker 1: know if they be So I don't know if they
Speaker 1: just woke up because it was getting light out, or
Speaker 1: it's entirely plausible that when the night is that short
Speaker 1: that you take a three or four hour nap and
Speaker 1: you get up for a little bit because you can't
Speaker 1: sleep anymore, do something nothing puts you to sleep faster
Speaker 1: than food in your belly, and then lay back down
Speaker 1: and take a quick nap and try and get another
Speaker 1: couple of hours. Yeah. I mean, obviously, uh, really early
Speaker 1: in the morning was a good time to go fishing.
Speaker 1: So and so it's entirely possible that he just woke
Speaker 1: up because that, you know, But again, I don't trust
Speaker 1: that he actually really truly remembered the stuff. It might
Speaker 1: be people who are people can become really suggestible and
Speaker 1: stuff under hypnosis, and it might have been that that's
Speaker 1: what they planned on doing. Yeah, the night before, let's
Speaker 1: get up at dawn and go fishing. And this actually
Speaker 1: tells me probably what happened and who is guilty of
Speaker 1: the whole thing. Who's that? Well, we all know that
Speaker 1: the chupacabra likes to fish. It's really territory and it
Speaker 1: does not like he does not competition, and he doesn't
Speaker 1: like people intense either. That's true. So I think we
Speaker 1: found our call. Think we have your Okay, Well, I
Speaker 1: guess the rest of this is pointless, so you can
Speaker 1: we'll just burden this. No, I will say, just to
Speaker 1: the credit of the whole hypnosis thing, at least in
Speaker 1: this case, I agree with you. I don't think that
Speaker 1: it can. You know, if you sustain a concussion. No,
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're like suppressing childhood memories because they're bad.
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe maybe psychologically traumatic. Man, I'm just going to
Speaker 1: say it again. Maybe maybe, but she's saying. I'm what
Speaker 1: I'm saying is okay. Maybe, But I don't know. I
Speaker 1: did read the interview that at least the translation of
Speaker 1: the interview, and it did sound like the questions were
Speaker 1: pretty straightforward as recorded. At least it was okay, so
Speaker 1: tell me about that night, and then he would say
Speaker 1: some stuff and they'd say okay, and then what happened? Okay,
Speaker 1: what looked like? What about his nose? What did his
Speaker 1: nose look like? What? You know? Sounded it seemed pretty
Speaker 1: straightforward at the very least they were. They were not
Speaker 1: trying to plan any ideas in his head. No, but
Speaker 1: there was there were sometimes where he would say I
Speaker 1: don't know, and they'd say no, no, no, you know.
Speaker 1: He'd be like, oh, you're right, I do know. Yeh see.
Speaker 1: But the thing about it is he remembers things like
Speaker 1: crawling out of the tent getting kicked in the face.
Speaker 1: But the fact that he was found outside the tents
Speaker 1: and they had already told him, it's not like they
Speaker 1: kept everything from him. You know that they told me.
Speaker 1: You know you were you guys were all your friends
Speaker 1: were all beaten and stabbed death, and you were found
Speaker 1: lying on top up with the tent with a concussion
Speaker 1: and broken jaw. And so he is going to he's
Speaker 1: gonna think he's gonna be thinking to himself well, I
Speaker 1: must have crawled out of the tent during the attacks somehow,
Speaker 1: and so I go he goes into hypnosis thinking that.
Speaker 1: And so maybe he didn't crawl out of the tent.
Speaker 1: Maybe the killer dragged him out of the tent. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's hard to say, but yeah, I think
Speaker 1: he is just totally that hanging. Let's talk about some suspects.
Speaker 1: Our first suspect was probably Luoma according to Google or
Speaker 1: according to Wikipedia, he was an escape ee from a
Speaker 1: work department nearby. And I'm not sure what a work
Speaker 1: department is, crew like a chain gang sort of thing
Speaker 1: or you know, work crew. So he'd probably have been
Speaker 1: convicted of some crime. Um. But he caught up with
Speaker 1: him pretty soon after the murders and they questioned about
Speaker 1: the murders. But he had to happen to have an alibi.
Speaker 1: And I really can't tell you why this guy is
Speaker 1: even included on all the list of suspects that you
Speaker 1: see out there in the web. Convict, convict nearby, But
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, the guy, the guy was on
Speaker 1: a work crew. He obviously had not done anything too serious.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, that's true. Yeah, probably according to Shawshank redemption
Speaker 1: they would put anybody on the word on the chain
Speaker 1: gang work crew. Well, and I also don't know how
Speaker 1: the you know, the jail system works in Finland. There
Speaker 1: are a lot of places in Europe that do, like
Speaker 1: real actual rehability of punishment for crimes that you know,
Speaker 1: end up in politics doesn't matter anyway, but they do
Speaker 1: actually do, like they try to rehab. Probably a good
Speaker 1: idea to try to rehab people. Probably not a great
Speaker 1: idea to like lock them in isolation for years on end, now,
Speaker 1: not really, Yeah, yeah, probably a good idea. Cats. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's go on to our next suspect. This guy has
Speaker 1: panty sol un and that was better than I could do.
Speaker 1: Petty pet He was a maintenance man. I don't know
Speaker 1: if that meant he was a janitor, a guy who
Speaker 1: worked on things or what he was in maintenance, He
Speaker 1: maintained things, things that he'd been convicted of several violent
Speaker 1: crimes in the nineties, in the late nineteen sixties and
Speaker 1: about eight nine years after the murders, he was in
Speaker 1: jail and he confessed to the murders then. And he
Speaker 1: did happen to live near the side of the Light
Speaker 1: Bottom murders at the time. They were committed, and they
Speaker 1: interrogated him, but his confession was not given much weight
Speaker 1: because he was really vague and cryptic, and some people
Speaker 1: said that he was a psychopath. I also there was
Speaker 1: a weird and again this maybe just kind of an
Speaker 1: oddball translation thing, but I saw the cryptic description that
Speaker 1: you were just given for in the vague and cryptic,
Speaker 1: I also saw something in combination with that of when drunk.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, ring around drugs. Yeah, well, a lot of
Speaker 1: people are weird and cryptic when they're drunk, and that
Speaker 1: what the heck does this mean? It's odd, it's cryptic. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm assuming that when they asked him, well, okay,
Speaker 1: you killed him, why did you do it? And he
Speaker 1: was like, well, i'll tell you. I had my reasons,
Speaker 1: you know, something like that. I don't know. I know
Speaker 1: they're dead, and I know they're buried close to the town. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah uh and as soon as my mother dies, i'll
Speaker 1: tell you. Yeah. In nineteen sixty, he committed suicide by
Speaker 1: hanging himself, and he did have a pretty lengthy criminal history.
Speaker 1: But you know, it's hard to take this too seriously
Speaker 1: because in nineteen sixty he would have been only fifteen,
Speaker 1: so let's starting a little young. The same age as
Speaker 1: the girls. Yeah, the same age as the girls and
Speaker 1: boys are eighteen, and at that age, boys kind of
Speaker 1: have a gross spur. And I can imagine that the
Speaker 1: eighteen year old boys would have been a little more
Speaker 1: powerful than him, but they could have gotten themselves unwrapped
Speaker 1: from a tent. It's true. You know, if there's a
Speaker 1: canvas pressing down on you and you're just woken from
Speaker 1: a slumber by something hitting you over the head, and
Speaker 1: I don't know that, you're necessarily going to immediately be
Speaker 1: like I can overpower you. You're going to be like
Speaker 1: what is going on and flail a little bit and
Speaker 1: then like get hit again and then you're done. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's going to be pinned in there. They're gonna be
Speaker 1: pinned inside, and he's gonna be on top of them,
Speaker 1: you know, the keys to to bash the two guys.
Speaker 1: He didn't look like he was that or Nils didn't
Speaker 1: look like he was that bit. Yeah, but he wasn't.
Speaker 1: He wasn't bulky. Yeah, he was definitely just a tall guy. Yeah. Yeah. Also,
Speaker 1: before we go any further, I just want to go
Speaker 1: ahead and say how funny it is that while most murders,
Speaker 1: you like struggle to find even like one viable suspect,
Speaker 1: and in this one, you've got at least three people
Speaker 1: who have admitted to it. Yeah. Yeah, well that's pretty
Speaker 1: common thing. Yeah, it's common for like a bunch of
Speaker 1: people to be like, oh, yeah, no, I totally did that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I know a lot of a lot of people confess
Speaker 1: to crimes he didn't come in, especially if they're well
Speaker 1: known notorious. Yeah. Remember we had conversation last week about
Speaker 1: people saying I want to go down as X. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but they never actually admit to it. They always kind
Speaker 1: of allude. But a lot of there's also this other
Speaker 1: subclass who didn't do it, don't have the stones or
Speaker 1: the capability to do it, but will claim they did
Speaker 1: it so that maybe they can get recorded in history,
Speaker 1: you know, to be remembered for knocking off at one
Speaker 1: guy and there's everybody who was involved. It's like, there's
Speaker 1: no way he could have done that. He couldn't overpower
Speaker 1: a fountain pen, but he's going to keep making the claim.
Speaker 1: There you go. Yeah, I don't know anyway, It's funny, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I just it's funny. But I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't. I kind of doubt his story.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people do this stuff because,
Speaker 1: like I said, they want they want attention, they want
Speaker 1: to get their name of the papers. Yeah. So oh,
Speaker 1: next up Valdemar Gilstrom. Yeah, he was one of the
Speaker 1: prime suspects. He ran a you asked, very close to
Speaker 1: the murder side, like right in the park that that
Speaker 1: was in. And I don't know what he sold in
Speaker 1: the kiosk. Could have been coffee, trinkets, I get the feeling.
Speaker 1: Is another way to say store. Yeah, like a little
Speaker 1: tiny general store. Yeah, like they have at camps. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they typically out there, they have stuff like that. You know,
Speaker 1: people want to buy beer or pop or whatever. Right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but he had a reputation for being irascible, for hating
Speaker 1: young people and campers and yeah, thinking the one who
Speaker 1: just hated campers. I supposedly I heard another versions of that.
Speaker 1: They hated campers, people who brought him business. He hated them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't. I experienced that in my job all the time.
Speaker 1: The people, the customers I deal with. I'm just like,
Speaker 1: I hate you, I hate you, I hate you. But
Speaker 1: oh my god, I have to deal with you. You
Speaker 1: do too, I know you talked about all the time
Speaker 1: what you're saying that. Yeah. Also there were some kids
Speaker 1: that kids at knew him. Was said he was like
Speaker 1: me to them and strow rocks at them when when
Speaker 1: they rode by on their bikes at night. Stuff. So
Speaker 1: it was kind of a Yeah. This guy also committed
Speaker 1: suicide in nineteen sixty nine, interestingly enough, Yeah, there's a
Speaker 1: big wave of suicides. Actually, I think I think Finland
Speaker 1: has a pretty high suicide right. I'm guessing it's the
Speaker 1: daylight cycle that with people might have something to do
Speaker 1: the hair. Yeah, I don't think that's actually, yeah, his
Speaker 1: story is that why why he's believed to be a
Speaker 1: suspect is just because of his personality, but also in
Speaker 1: the late nineteen sixties, um he confessed apparently was drunk,
Speaker 1: but he confessed to his neighbor that he had committed
Speaker 1: the murders. He confessed more than once, didn't he I think? So, Yeah,
Speaker 1: what else did he do that was suspicious? He had
Speaker 1: a well on his property and he filled in a
Speaker 1: well on the property a few days after the murders.
Speaker 1: And is that suspicious? Well, because I thought the thought
Speaker 1: is that is that he threw the murder weapons down
Speaker 1: to the bottom of the well, then filled the well
Speaker 1: in the rocks, had the or the pipe, the pipe
Speaker 1: and the knife or the rock and the knife, and
Speaker 1: then fill it in. Well's idea. Okay, I admit I
Speaker 1: didn't take the time to actually look at the village.
Speaker 1: And I'm guessing you did this show on the map. Uh.
Speaker 1: I did, but I didn't find his house or anything. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm trying to get an ideas. I'm guessing
Speaker 1: that everybody had their own well to pull water, but
Speaker 1: I'm guessing that well was rather old. And just because
Speaker 1: it's a well doesn't mean it's a super deep well
Speaker 1: and a very good well. People are all the time
Speaker 1: like this well. You know, it's sucks half the time,
Speaker 1: it doesn't work. I'm just gonna fill it in. Well.
Speaker 1: I would be interested to find out if he had
Speaker 1: had plans to do that before any of this ever
Speaker 1: took place. Well, that's the whole thing is, by by
Speaker 1: this time, I'm sure there was a municipal water system
Speaker 1: in the town. Sure, and so was there. No, there
Speaker 1: was no need, no need for the well, which, let's
Speaker 1: be honest, according to Timmy, the wells are dangerous, is
Speaker 1: always in the well? Yeah, that's true. I guess my
Speaker 1: suspicious brain is like, but maybe like two days after
Speaker 1: a murder happened right near your place before, Hey, life
Speaker 1: goes on right, not for everyone. I'm sorry. My vacation
Speaker 1: was planned and I'm taking my vacation And it's not
Speaker 1: my fault that those dumb kids got themselves killed. I
Speaker 1: got stuff to do. Well. He might have had a
Speaker 1: schedule too, he might have had a work crew can
Speaker 1: do it, and he might have had he might have
Speaker 1: had somebody deliver a bunch of dirt to him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, and because he had, he had to get
Speaker 1: dirt from somewhere, dirt, gravel, rocks, whatever. Yea. So maybe
Speaker 1: that that delivery showed up and you know, on the
Speaker 1: scheduled day. And man, so it's hard to say about
Speaker 1: if that really means much of anything. And frankly, you
Speaker 1: know a lot of people are all puzzled that the
Speaker 1: police didn't dig up the well, because everybody's saying, well,
Speaker 1: he filled it in, the weapons must be down there,
Speaker 1: but you know the police didn't do that, and people
Speaker 1: were wondering, well, why didn't they? And I frankly, what
Speaker 1: kind of a bone head with stashes murder weapons on
Speaker 1: his own property. I actually a lot of them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe just have them barry remains on their property. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know there is that. My guy. One of the
Speaker 1: most famous ones was a guy who murders his room
Speaker 1: and chopped the body up so he could fit it
Speaker 1: into a garbage can, and then he put the garbage
Speaker 1: can in his storage hit. Yeah, and then you heard
Speaker 1: the story. Yeah, and then he didn't pay the rent. Yes,
Speaker 1: apparently forgot to pay the rag or something, and oh
Speaker 1: my god, what a bonehead. But anyway, I just don't
Speaker 1: think that he would take the weapons all the way
Speaker 1: back to his house and fill in the well when
Speaker 1: he could so easily throw them in the lake or
Speaker 1: just toss him off into the word. You know. It
Speaker 1: might have been his favorite knife, and he may have
Speaker 1: not realized what a what a stir the whole thing
Speaker 1: was going to make and then panicked. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: a reason that he would have. I know, I'm bouncing
Speaker 1: both sides of this, but that's the reason why a
Speaker 1: guy would throw it in there. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I guess for me, this is the one of the confessions.
Speaker 1: That kind of does it for me. All Right, you're
Speaker 1: convicted of a lot of stuff, you're in jail, you're
Speaker 1: like bragging into your friends and jail You're like, oh, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I I totally killed those kids. Yeah. This guy like
Speaker 1: said it to his neighbors when he was drunk one day. Like,
Speaker 1: that's a weird thing to say, knowing that the cops
Speaker 1: might come after you at any point and throw you
Speaker 1: in jail for the rest of your life, even though
Speaker 1: you were an otherwise upstanding citizen, because you said drunk
Speaker 1: one night, like, yeah, actually I killed those citizen a jerk.
Speaker 1: He does sound like a jerk, But I'm just saying like,
Speaker 1: he wasn't in other he wasn't otherwise in trouble with
Speaker 1: the law, he wasn't already serving a life sentence. So
Speaker 1: for him to just off handedly say, oh, yeah, I
Speaker 1: did that, that's weird to me. I don't think he
Speaker 1: did it. I agree, But that of the admissions is
Speaker 1: the one that gets me. It's like, why would you
Speaker 1: let's like me just saying to you guys, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I kidnapped this kid. Why why would I say that
Speaker 1: to you? Like people do weird stuff When they're blind drunk, though,
Speaker 1: stuff comes out. You know how many guys in bars
Speaker 1: have told you how they were like they were like
Speaker 1: you know, Green berets and Navy seals. Yeah, and you
Speaker 1: can tell that they haven't theirs. That's a little different,
Speaker 1: totally different, that that kind of talk is not going
Speaker 1: to land you in jail. Yeah, yeah, but that's exactly
Speaker 1: what both of these are to me talk. Yeah, that's fair. Again.
Speaker 1: I don't know how the police he originally came to
Speaker 1: their attention, but they did search his house, but not
Speaker 1: the well. His wife gave him an alibi, and so
Speaker 1: they crossed him off the list, And after his death,
Speaker 1: his wife said that she had threatened to kill her
Speaker 1: if she ever backslid on the alibi thing. So I
Speaker 1: really don't know. I find it hard to believe. I
Speaker 1: don't I don't really see a motive there. I mean, sure,
Speaker 1: he hates young people in campers, but it's a pretty
Speaker 1: brutal attack. One of the girls was stabbed like eleven
Speaker 1: times or something like a lot of times. It wasn't
Speaker 1: just like, oh oops, I hit this one kid over
Speaker 1: the head with a rock and now I got into
Speaker 1: the rest of them in it was like you say
Speaker 1: that as if you'd that out, like, whoops, no, but
Speaker 1: the how don't remember which one it was, but she
Speaker 1: was hit over the head and that killed her and
Speaker 1: then even though she was dead. Yeah, so yeah, that's
Speaker 1: pretty brutal. Yeah, that's that. I agree. There's no I
Speaker 1: don't see the motive there. Yeah, I don't quite get it. Then,
Speaker 1: of course, you know, I didn't know the guy our
Speaker 1: next Our next suspect is a guy named Hans asked Man. Yeah,
Speaker 1: YouTube joker. That was the only reason I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't really want to talk about this story, but
Speaker 1: I get to say ask man. Assuming that it's not
Speaker 1: how his name is pronounced. I assume it was pronounced Austin,
Speaker 1: but I don't know exactly from Austin. Yeah, you ruining
Speaker 1: our fun. Austin actually might not have been his original name.
Speaker 1: There was one story out there that I think told
Speaker 1: by him that he's stolen a German still another officer
Speaker 1: or another German soldier's name. So let's talk about him
Speaker 1: because interesting. Well yeah, okay, so he was a German
Speaker 1: who claimed that he had served in the SS in
Speaker 1: World War Two, and then after a year in the SS,
Speaker 1: he served as a guard in Auschwitz. So just a
Speaker 1: real nice guy, really really good, nice, good good CV.
Speaker 1: Apparently later he fell out of favor. He was dating
Speaker 1: a Jewish girl and so fell out of favor for
Speaker 1: that reason and was sent to the Eastern Front, where
Speaker 1: he was captured by the Soviets and sent to a
Speaker 1: prison camp. And at some point and during his Soviet experience,
Speaker 1: he decided to become a KGB spy. How much of
Speaker 1: this is true, I don't know, because we only have
Speaker 1: his word for it, and it doesn't sound like the
Speaker 1: movie plot of James Bond at all. Yeah, I know, so,
Speaker 1: I It's it's amazing out there how many people say that,
Speaker 1: just you know, on web pages and stuff, just say
Speaker 1: he was a KGB spy or suspected KGB spy, when
Speaker 1: I can't think of a single reason to believe he
Speaker 1: was a KGB spy one he wasn't, even if he
Speaker 1: wasn't even a Russian. The only reason that I ever
Speaker 1: saw that seemed even remotely plausible is that people thought
Speaker 1: that the reason he hadn't not really been investigated was
Speaker 1: because the Finnish government was scared of him actually being
Speaker 1: a KGB spy. That they like did preliminary inquiries and
Speaker 1: it was revealed that, you know, the KGB was like, hey, actually,
Speaker 1: don't look into him. And they were like, okay, yep, no,
Speaker 1: you got it, no problem, We're not going to do
Speaker 1: anything about it. That was the only like even vaguely
Speaker 1: reasonable that I could find. I have not heard anything
Speaker 1: credible out there about this at all. The saying a
Speaker 1: little thing. I don't. I don't think they're that terrified
Speaker 1: of the Russians. I mean, obviously they've been finlandized. You
Speaker 1: don't know what that means. But they so that's sort
Speaker 1: of not exactly what the sway of the Sylvius, but
Speaker 1: they kind of do what you know. Of course, Frankly,
Speaker 1: if I were asking questions and the KGB was like, hey,
Speaker 1: actually stop asking that, even though I'm like an American citizen,
Speaker 1: I would be like, no, yep, no, you got it.
Speaker 1: Probably probably yeah, because yeah, they've got a long they've
Speaker 1: got the long arm. Of course, of course they're all
Speaker 1: gone now, well, some of them were still around, and
Speaker 1: one of them to charge of the Russia. Doesn't charge
Speaker 1: of Russia right now. But anyway, back to her story
Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties, I believe it was the nineteen
Speaker 1: fifty three Auesoman moved to Finland and he was a
Speaker 1: saspect and a couple of other unstal murders there, what
Speaker 1: you guys, I'm sure we've heard about. There was Ali Sorry,
Speaker 1: was a seventeen year old girl who disappeared in May
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three, riding her bicycle home late one night.
Speaker 1: Her body was found five months later, and it appeared
Speaker 1: that she had been killed by a blow to the
Speaker 1: head with a blood object. Sounds familiar, Yeah, kind of
Speaker 1: kind of dust, doesn't it. Awesoman later confessed in his
Speaker 1: deathbed that he and another guy had accidentally run over
Speaker 1: a girl on a bicycle and killed her and then
Speaker 1: disposed of the body and the bicycle death confession. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: and and so the problem that I have with that
Speaker 1: is that I looked into this particular case and then
Speaker 1: when they found the bicycle, the bicycle, the whoever had
Speaker 1: it had taken it out into like a swamp, a
Speaker 1: swampy kind of area and put it in water, deflated
Speaker 1: the tire so it would sink, and then, of course,
Speaker 1: you know, months later, when the watered level dropped, the
Speaker 1: bike was out. The micro sound and when they when
Speaker 1: they pulled it out, the bicycle, Um, and this was
Speaker 1: the bicycle that this girl who had been murdered was riding.
Speaker 1: The bicycle that she was riding, and it was identified
Speaker 1: as herve bicycle was in perfect condition, I mean except
Speaker 1: for except for a little bit yeah russ and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. But it wasn't bent and mangled like it
Speaker 1: would have been. It also would it would surprise me
Speaker 1: that you could hit somebody with the car and the
Speaker 1: cause of death would be blunt force trauma to the
Speaker 1: head without any other damage, right, exactly, That's what it
Speaker 1: sounds like over the head. And that was it, Yeah, exactly, yeah,
Speaker 1: and so and so either it sounds like he might
Speaker 1: have actually run over a girl on a bicycle. Apparently
Speaker 1: they ran over this girl and a girl on a bicycle,
Speaker 1: and he his friend hid the bicycle and the body
Speaker 1: well still could be hidden, I mean you know, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: it might just be an entirely different girl on a bike.
Speaker 1: So uh. And then the other murder that Ausbond was
Speaker 1: was just back and I'm not sure why, but this
Speaker 1: happen in July, and two young women were camping next
Speaker 1: to a lake. Does that sound familiar and yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and uh, and they were murdered, one with the blown
Speaker 1: object and one with a knife. Is that sound familiar, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but the yeah, them was a little different though. Their
Speaker 1: bodies were taken away and hidden into marsh, hidden pretty
Speaker 1: carefully because it took a long time to find them,
Speaker 1: and all their stuff, including their bicycles or bicycles by
Speaker 1: the way, were submerged in water with the tires deflated,
Speaker 1: just like the girl back in. Yeah. Well, I guess
Speaker 1: because I see where you're going with this, right, You're saying,
Speaker 1: like the m is different, Well, it is, But it's
Speaker 1: also not unreasonable to think these two boys kind of happened,
Speaker 1: right the first two boys that they saw the motorcycles
Speaker 1: and they thought, oh, let's go over there, and then
Speaker 1: they saw a man like walking away from the site.
Speaker 1: It's not unreasonable to say that like the murderer was interrupted. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that like in my head, then he was in the
Speaker 1: middle of dragging people out to take them to the
Speaker 1: marsh or wherever, and that he was like, Oh, I
Speaker 1: hear people coming, I'm just gonna walk away like a
Speaker 1: normal human being and maybe they won't suspect anything, and
Speaker 1: just had to abandon the scene and not do the
Speaker 1: things he would normally do. Yeah, that's that's entirely possible.
Speaker 1: I think that, and I was gonna sit I suspect
Speaker 1: that might be the case. Although the timing is a
Speaker 1: little off though, because they only succeeded in getting their wallets,
Speaker 1: swimsuits in their shoes but hiding them. But you would
Speaker 1: think that he would even though it doesn't get completely
Speaker 1: dark the between sunset and sunrise, that's when more people
Speaker 1: are going to be home in bed and not out
Speaker 1: hiking around the park area. So you think he wanted
Speaker 1: to want to kill them like a ten thirty eleven o'clock,
Speaker 1: and then he'd have all night to dispose of all
Speaker 1: their stuff if it were premeditated. Certainly if he were
Speaker 1: just out on a walk, and people being out and
Speaker 1: about on a walk gives me the impression that likely,
Speaker 1: if their wallets are gone and this random person is
Speaker 1: in the killer, this random guy is just a thief
Speaker 1: who's gotten no scruples. Yeah, guess they don't need that's
Speaker 1: also not it's not unlikely that that happened as well,
Speaker 1: but that would be I guess my argument for the
Speaker 1: It seems like you can explain the fact that they
Speaker 1: weren't submerged in March March, that he had just been
Speaker 1: interrupted and decided to not return. That would be the
Speaker 1: smart thing to do. You walk away and you don't
Speaker 1: come back to try and finish it. You just say,
Speaker 1: all right, that's it. Well you remember remember this too,
Speaker 1: is that the two girls on who are who were
Speaker 1: actually who are hit or who were murdered on this
Speaker 1: I don't know, And all this stuff was taken away
Speaker 1: and hidden away they found they found it scattered all
Speaker 1: around in the woods. So he could have been mid process. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it could have been. And also, uh, it's it's entirely
Speaker 1: possible that this guy comes along and he hasn't actually
Speaker 1: sees his tents. That's a small pup tent, sees two
Speaker 1: motorcycles leading inst treat. I think there's a guy and
Speaker 1: girl probably or maybe two guys, who knows, but it
Speaker 1: thinks it's just two people. He thinks the cleanup process
Speaker 1: is going to be simpler and easier than what it
Speaker 1: actually turned out to be. Yeah, and so it might
Speaker 1: have bead. I mean, it's that the crimes are very
Speaker 1: similar in many ways. Are the only thing that I mean,
Speaker 1: you're you're tying the murder of these two women together,
Speaker 1: and the girl, the one who Osmond said he hit. No,
Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm not necessarily tying her murder together. One
Speaker 1: of the things that you said that was similarities was
Speaker 1: the deflated bike tires. Yeah, the way Joe had said
Speaker 1: it, it it kind of sounded like the deflated tires was
Speaker 1: a key link between them, and I just not not.
Speaker 1: I don't think that that's it came that way to me,
Speaker 1: And I was like, I don't think that's a good okay,
Speaker 1: we're golden. Yeah that you know, I'm thinking that that
Speaker 1: case is a little more random than this one that
Speaker 1: happened that this one that happened with two women that
Speaker 1: happened not that far north northeast, really, and it's a
Speaker 1: similar Demokay, Like I said, he may he may have
Speaker 1: been interrupted at the same time, could have been totally
Speaker 1: every later time Osmond, he didn't he like show up
Speaker 1: in a hospital that morning, Well, yeah, the day after
Speaker 1: the murders, Osman went to the Helsinki Surgical Hospital And
Speaker 1: I don't know why. And this is again one of
Speaker 1: the frustrating things about this is if I could if
Speaker 1: I could read some finish, then I could probably get
Speaker 1: a little more detail on exactly what purpose he had
Speaker 1: in showing up. But his claimed the doctor's claimed that
Speaker 1: his behavior was odd, that he tried to lie about
Speaker 1: his name, tried to give a fake name, and his
Speaker 1: fingernails were black and I don't know if that means
Speaker 1: that they were bruised, or if they had dirt under
Speaker 1: the fingernails or exactly what. And there were red stains
Speaker 1: on his clothes. And he was also reported the aggressive
Speaker 1: and nervous. Um my favorite detail on that. That sentence
Speaker 1: always reads throughout the internet through translations everything. Um, he
Speaker 1: pretended to be unconscious, Yeah, but he was actually aggressive
Speaker 1: and nervous, which is so here to me. I left that.
Speaker 1: I left it because that was so nonsensical. I totally
Speaker 1: left that out. Gonscious. It's like, I mean, really, but
Speaker 1: that's like, that's like playing possum. Even wouldn't surprise me
Speaker 1: that much that he would show up, you know, in
Speaker 1: this kind of disheveled state and be like really nervous
Speaker 1: and kind of aggressive, and you know, somebody would come
Speaker 1: in to question him and he'd just be like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm unconscious, No, I can't answer your question, No, I'm
Speaker 1: not responsive, it's fine, And then you know, they would like,
Speaker 1: you know, poke him or something, and he'd go, oh,
Speaker 1: I mean no, I'm unconscious. Have you ever seen anybody
Speaker 1: trying to pretend to be It doesn't work out. I
Speaker 1: see people seriously trying to pull it off. It is
Speaker 1: so bad, so funny. Yeah, anyways, I just thought we
Speaker 1: should add that because it's hilarious. It is. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think it's funny too. The but these are some of
Speaker 1: the reasons people like him as a suspect. Because he's
Speaker 1: all covered in red stuff and everything. And also he
Speaker 1: had blonde hair that was a little bit, a little
Speaker 1: bit long, ash like the murderer. And after the description
Speaker 1: of the murderer made the news because of the hypnosis
Speaker 1: and also the two the two kids that saw him,
Speaker 1: that saw the murder from behind everything, he uh, he
Speaker 1: cut his hair. Yeah, yeah right. The news started reporting
Speaker 1: the description of the guy they were looking for, and
Speaker 1: Osman immediately was like, ah, I'm going to cut all
Speaker 1: my hair, cut my blonde locks off for no reason,
Speaker 1: in particular because I'm board of it. Yeah yeah. Next
Speaker 1: next on the list of damning damning neils in his coffin. Uh,
Speaker 1: he lived within three kilometers of Lake Bottom. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: didn't his clothes also led the clothes that he showed
Speaker 1: up at the hospital, weren't they very similar to the
Speaker 1: clothes that they described him in supposedly? Yeah, And I'm
Speaker 1: not sure if that If that's the description of the
Speaker 1: clothes that he was wearing that day, looked like the
Speaker 1: clothes that were described by Nils under hypnosis or by
Speaker 1: the boys, Yeah, And I had no idea. I think
Speaker 1: actually I read in the transcript of the hypnosis questioning
Speaker 1: Nils did describe that those clothes, but I never saw
Speaker 1: anywhere if the boys had described that, it would be
Speaker 1: interesting to see if they described them differently. But um,
Speaker 1: but Nils described it was like being dark, like wearing
Speaker 1: a dark sweater, like a dark plaid sweater, I think
Speaker 1: a dark sweater or a sweater with spots or patterns
Speaker 1: or something like that. So it's hard to see how
Speaker 1: how blood would really show up on that very well
Speaker 1: at all. So and also, by the way, blood when
Speaker 1: it dries, it turns brown, so it's not red. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know. And also if those red stains on Osmin's
Speaker 1: clothes were actually blood, then why did he walk away
Speaker 1: more than why did you walk around more than twenty
Speaker 1: four hours wearing a blood stained shirt? Because he was crazy.
Speaker 1: Crazy showed up and he seemed like very mentally disturbed.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, he's not necessarily crazy as
Speaker 1: much as he was playing with chemicals in some way,
Speaker 1: shape or form. There's a lot of chemicals that turn
Speaker 1: your fingernails black. For the only one, the one that
Speaker 1: comes up to mind is like, um, developing film photography
Speaker 1: people you know you do their photography people when you're
Speaker 1: developing film. You know, it's it's a known thing. I
Speaker 1: think it's the silver or the nitritic camera what it is,
Speaker 1: but it does that. But there's also chemicals that you
Speaker 1: can splash on yourself that come out different colors, and
Speaker 1: you're not supposed to be huffing those things. But he
Speaker 1: could have been doing something on chemicals. And the official
Speaker 1: report they interviewed his because he had an alibi that
Speaker 1: was okay. His alibi was either that he was with
Speaker 1: his girlfriend or he was with his girlfriend's sister. But
Speaker 1: the landlords also said, oh, yeah, I know he is
Speaker 1: totally here. And then they said, but he woke up
Speaker 1: really early to paint something red. That's why he had
Speaker 1: splashes of red all over him. Yeah, I mean, you
Speaker 1: know again, it was more than twenty four hours after
Speaker 1: the merger. It's just still that weirdness of like, why
Speaker 1: did he show up? Why was he at the hospital.
Speaker 1: I'm more inclined to go with Steve's theory of like
Speaker 1: playing with chemicals, and because he was not feeling good,
Speaker 1: he would explain some of the mental thing. Would you
Speaker 1: explain the erratic behavior. They explained the colors to the
Speaker 1: red colored shirt too. And as far as this cutting
Speaker 1: his hair, that's not that suspicious because a lot of
Speaker 1: people get haircuts. I guess the way I understood it
Speaker 1: in the storytelling was that like he heard somebody talking
Speaker 1: about this is what the killer looked like, and thought, ah,
Speaker 1: I betta cut my hair. It wasn't just like a
Speaker 1: random getting your hair cut situation. I don't know. I'm
Speaker 1: sure there's a lot of people who do that who
Speaker 1: are kind of shady. Better not looked like that dude,
Speaker 1: Yeah my head, well exactly. Yeah, and he does look
Speaker 1: like a crazy person. Oh he does a little bit,
Speaker 1: and uh yeah yeah, and supposedly awesome confess to the
Speaker 1: murders on his deathbed. According to a finished guy that
Speaker 1: I saw and Reddit. Yeah, but I don't know if
Speaker 1: he's maybe confusing that confession about the confession about running
Speaker 1: the girl over on the bike. I don't know that
Speaker 1: read it was a bit confusing. Yeah, okay, so much
Speaker 1: for ask Man. I think that I don't really think
Speaker 1: that this guy is a strong suspect. You guys know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess he's appealing, I think for me,
Speaker 1: like of the suspects, yes, yeah, but I don't think
Speaker 1: any of them are good. No, not really, and especially
Speaker 1: the next one. The next one. Yeah, here's our last suspect,
Speaker 1: Nils Gustafson, the survivor loan survivor. Yeah, four years almost
Speaker 1: fourth year, almost forty four years after the murders. He
Speaker 1: was arrested in two thousand four and put on trial
Speaker 1: for the murders. The prosecution's theory was that he became
Speaker 1: jealous of Irmani, of Irmali and Seppo and erupted into
Speaker 1: rage and that probably fueled by booze. Apparently apparently they
Speaker 1: were drinking they did. Yeah. Their theory is that Irmalley
Speaker 1: was stabbed fifteen times, which was many, many more times
Speaker 1: than the others. Were stabbed, and that the sexual jealousy
Speaker 1: and rage could have could have could have explained that. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then the prosecution also theorized that Niel's injuries were
Speaker 1: probably sustained in the struggle with the others, probably especially
Speaker 1: with Seppo. Uh. He probably Seppo bashed un John broke
Speaker 1: his jaw and you know when somebody else hit him
Speaker 1: with a rock and everything, but he managed to prevail
Speaker 1: with a knife and kill everybody they were intent. Yeah,
Speaker 1: apparently there there was some blood in DNA evidence and
Speaker 1: stuff that gave them reason to believe it was Nils. Weird.
Speaker 1: He was bleeding all over because he had been knocked
Speaker 1: in the head and his DNA happened to be all over.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know exactly what their evidence was
Speaker 1: because because they never found the weapons, right, he found
Speaker 1: his fingerprints on the handle of the knife, like the scene,
Speaker 1: but like, what are they talking about? And for forty
Speaker 1: some fifty years now people have been going into the
Speaker 1: Lake us In searching for the weapons metal detectors and
Speaker 1: I was just digging around in it. Yeah, though I
Speaker 1: would not expect if it was a rock that was
Speaker 1: a blown instrument. Probably that's in the lake. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's in the lake. But but then why would you
Speaker 1: throw it in the lake? It would be too easy
Speaker 1: to find. I guess like more than that, right, Like
Speaker 1: his injuries were the people who are touting this theory
Speaker 1: say like he was minimally injured, Like, no, he was
Speaker 1: not minimally really severely injured. And then both of their
Speaker 1: shoes were over. You know the fact that the shoes
Speaker 1: in the Waltons missing, just the shoes at the in
Speaker 1: the end, really all you have to use as the shoes.
Speaker 1: They were so far away if he had been that injured,
Speaker 1: and then he had to have been that injured while
Speaker 1: everyone was still alive, and then to bash all their
Speaker 1: heads in and then stab somebody fifteen times and then
Speaker 1: move the shoes and then pass out, like what. There
Speaker 1: was something like there was something about the prosecution's case
Speaker 1: that they were sure he did it because there was
Speaker 1: blood on his shoes, and I got the impression it
Speaker 1: was bloody footprints in the site. But it just was
Speaker 1: it's nonsensical to me that thing I saw, right, They
Speaker 1: were like, oh, and then he gave himself those injuries.
Speaker 1: It was like, no, Okay, I can actually I can
Speaker 1: actually see a truthful on wacko doing that. Think about it,
Speaker 1: how do you get yourself that hard and heads first
Speaker 1: into a tree to break your jaw and then and
Speaker 1: then find a rock, turn around and just dead man
Speaker 1: fall into it. Would have found the rock there, then, well,
Speaker 1: I'm us saying it's possible to do that. People have
Speaker 1: done this weird crap before. It would be an amazing
Speaker 1: active will have to be able to do something. He
Speaker 1: would have to have been complete and total, cold blooded
Speaker 1: nut job killer, and that probably would have come out
Speaker 1: in the last four years. Yeah, yeah, unless he's just
Speaker 1: been taking it out on hapless hamsters. Yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: but it's well, it's more than I don't buy it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: now I don't either. But back yeah, back to the
Speaker 1: shoes though too. I mean, it couldn't possibly have been him,
Speaker 1: because remember when he had no reason to take the
Speaker 1: shoes somewhere else and and not and by the way,
Speaker 1: not hide them too terribly thoroughly because they were found
Speaker 1: fairly readily. But then again, the problem was is that
Speaker 1: his whole story would have been I was knocked unconscious,
Speaker 1: but people might have seen him walking to and from
Speaker 1: this place. I mean, it was you know, it was
Speaker 1: about one point six kilometers around trip to go to
Speaker 1: this place where he left the shoes and walk back.
Speaker 1: And even if he had he was keeping an eye
Speaker 1: out for people. Uh, and just you know, he was
Speaker 1: going to duck behind a tree if somebody showed up, Well,
Speaker 1: somebody still might see you without you even knowing it.
Speaker 1: So it's a huge risk. It's a huge risk to
Speaker 1: want to do this with the shoes. So I just
Speaker 1: don't think Nils was a murderer. And I think that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: bad theory. No, it's a really bad shame. I hadn't
Speaker 1: wonder he didn't go through. Yeah, well he was acquitted
Speaker 1: in two thousand five and the Finnish government gave him
Speaker 1: about forty five thousand euros in compensation for his period
Speaker 1: of jail time. Yeah, it was probably wasn't enough. No,
Speaker 1: not really. And I've got a few I've got one
Speaker 1: other possibility here, which is that there was, as I said,
Speaker 1: a similar killing just a year before, less than a year.
Speaker 1: Was this a serial killer? But if if it was
Speaker 1: a serial killer, why did he stop moved on and
Speaker 1: moved on? Maybe he switched to just killing single people
Speaker 1: at a time, that kind of thing. Um, maybe he
Speaker 1: got run over by a bus transient labor. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: moved on. You want to a different place. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: if you just every year or so kill some local
Speaker 1: and then shift on with the changing work tides, Yeah,
Speaker 1: nobody's gonna find you. I mean, that's how there's so
Speaker 1: many of them. Like the truckers. You stop because I
Speaker 1: have to walk to my car. I gotta tell you
Speaker 1: one thing that that's entirely possible. This guy was a
Speaker 1: serial killer and he just changed his m Oh. Yeah.
Speaker 1: That's the thing about serial killers is that they have
Speaker 1: a pattern, you know, and so pretty. But if you
Speaker 1: what if you're a killer and you change your pattern
Speaker 1: every time, If your pattern is to change every time,
Speaker 1: that would be the hardest to track. Or your pattern
Speaker 1: is right, this pattern of hide everything, and you get
Speaker 1: caught halfway through like he did during this and realize, Oops,
Speaker 1: that's not a great pattern. Let me do something else. Yeah. Maybe, yeah,
Speaker 1: it could have been that, And Frank, I don't think.
Speaker 1: I don't know they would have what the point of
Speaker 1: hiding everything was. By the time these murders were committed
Speaker 1: to the Lake Bottom murders, and that they had pretty
Speaker 1: much found from the previous year. Those the murder of
Speaker 1: those two women. They'd found the bodies, they had found
Speaker 1: their bicycles, they had found most of their stuff in
Speaker 1: the woods. So he had to have known that. There's
Speaker 1: really kind of pointless. But yeah, I did take a
Speaker 1: year that that's that does retard the investigation. That's a
Speaker 1: good point. Yeah, but it could have been the same guy.
Speaker 1: I don't know. But the shoes, the shoes are really
Speaker 1: the killer clue here, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, try
Speaker 1: to be alright. No, I don't have anybody that I
Speaker 1: really I want to point a finger at now. I
Speaker 1: don't think, but I do think it's I'm pretty convinced
Speaker 1: that Nils did not do it. Definitely, not definitely. I'm
Speaker 1: definitely in the camp he did not do it. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And so as for the rest of that, I think
Speaker 1: somebody got some pressure from up top to put a
Speaker 1: case together. Well, yeah, I don't know, I don't I
Speaker 1: don't know what evidence the police have, you know, what
Speaker 1: DNA evidence they have that convinced them that Nils was guilty.
Speaker 1: But again, but it didn't, it didn't hold up in court.
Speaker 1: Obviously it was pretty weak evidence. Obviously it was insufficient. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I think Nils was innocent. So anyway, that's about it.
Speaker 1: You guys asked for this. They wanted to hear us
Speaker 1: talk about a thing that we have nothing to add to. Actually,
Speaker 1: you know what Joe and I were talking about this earlier.
Speaker 1: I think I figured out why all of our top
Speaker 1: stories are top stories is because we just didn't want
Speaker 1: to do them, so they keep. You know, they all
Speaker 1: have a pretty common thread, which is there's just enough
Speaker 1: evidence to know what's going on, but there's not quite
Speaker 1: enough evidence to pin down where it's going. And it's
Speaker 1: that perfect storm of information and lack of that just
Speaker 1: gets you the imagination going. And I'm because I've looked
Speaker 1: through the rest of the list after I figured this
Speaker 1: out like that, Like that's that's why these are so popular.
Speaker 1: It's so easy to just lose yourself in the one
Speaker 1: if well, I have something to tell you, guys, Actually
Speaker 1: I committed the Lake Bono murders. Is that the deal? Yeah?
Speaker 1: It's actually that you know that portrait I have in
Speaker 1: my house that looks like an old lady. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've got one of those two and it didn't work
Speaker 1: for me. For me, actually two, the one of the
Speaker 1: old lady looks like a space alien. All right, you guys,
Speaker 1: any final thoughts or should we wind this down? I
Speaker 1: think we're pointed up, sir. Okay, you're probably wondering if
Speaker 1: we have a website. Well, it turns out we do.
Speaker 1: It's called Taking Sideways podcast dot com. And you can
Speaker 1: listen to episodes to check our links. We do post
Speaker 1: links and stuff like that, and also leave comments, of course,
Speaker 1: hopefully polite positive comments. We're on iTunes, of course, you
Speaker 1: can subscribe. You can leave us a review, which would
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Speaker 1: That's easy. We're also on Facebook, the Thinking Sideways Facebook
Speaker 1: friend us, like us, follow us, yeah, oh yeah. We
Speaker 1: have a Patreon group us. Right. We're on Twitter, We're
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways, that's without the g. We have an email
Speaker 1: address believe it or not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Thinking Sideways
Speaker 1: Podcast at gmail dot com. And also, if you're so inclined,
Speaker 1: we're on Patreon Patreon dot com slash Thinking Sideways, where
Speaker 1: if you want to, uh, you know, pledge a certain
Speaker 1: amount of money per episode, you don't have to, not
Speaker 1: at all, but if you feel like it, we can
Speaker 1: find us out there anyway. That's about it. You guys
Speaker 1: have any more like you know, murder punds or anything
Speaker 1: like that talk about Okay, alright, I think we've we've
Speaker 1: poked it to it. Yeah, pretty much. Okay, so we're
Speaker 1: gonna stick a fork in this one. Goodbye everybody later, Hi, guys,