WEBVTT - It's a Numbers Game: Unpacking 'Original Sin' with Alex Thompson 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:04.240 Welcome back to a Numbers Game Podcast, Ryan Kurdoski, Happy 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:07.000 Memorial Day. I hope you are all having a wonderful 0:00:07.000 --> 0:00:10.080 Memorial Day, whatever you're doing, having a barbecue or going 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.600 to the racetrack like my family always did, being degenerates. 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:16.720 I'm just joking. We didn't. We weren't that degenerate anyway. 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:18.520 I hope you guys have a great Memorial Day. Thank 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:23.160 you for listening on this holiday. I am exhausted because 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:25.119 I spent up. I was up two nights in a 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:27.480 row at three o'clock in the morning each night reading 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:32.080 Original Sin President Biden's Decline, It's cover up and his 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:35.600 disastrous choice to run again by Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson. 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:38.880 It's a good book, really good pick. I mean, it 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:40.800 kept me up because it was it wasn't bad. It 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:42.960 was actually a patren or. It was quick and there 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:44.720 were things that I learned there. And I want to 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:47.080 talk about the book in this episode special Memorial the 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:49.680 episode maybe you're looking for summer reading. I actually do 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:51.800 recommend this spoke to people. I do. I know there's 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:54.680 a lot of anger by conservatives around, especially Jake Tapper. 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:57.880 And the scene ends coverage over Joe Biden. I understand, 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:02.240 and very few people have been as wronged by CNN 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:04.440 as I have, and I can still get past it. 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:06.760 So you can get past it read this book. Certain 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:11.200 things that I think were super interesting in this book 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:14.759 that I just I'm kind of blown away from one 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:19.000 one of the people involved in Joe Biden's like to 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:22.000 make Joe Biden look better and was with Joe Biden 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:26.360 frequently to do all of his videos with Steven Spielberg. 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.520 I never knew that. I did not hear. Maybe it 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:33.480 was reported, I don't know, but Steven Spielberg et director Jaws, 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:38.840 you know, Stephen Freakin Spielberg was involved in trying to 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:41.320 make Joe Biden look better because he couldn't record videos. 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:45.160 I found that absolutely fascinating. I also found it fascinating 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:49.120 which Democratic politicians would go on record to talk about it. 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:54.000 Governor Massachusetts would go sat there and went on record. 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:57.320 A senator from Colorado sat there, went on record and said, 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.760 I knew Joe Biden wasn't well. I think, in my 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:05.840 personal opinion, they're underplaying how concerned they actually were. Also 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:10.160 super interesting and fascinating part of the book, the Colorado senator. 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:11.800 I forget which one it was now because I didn't 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:14.640 make a big note about it. But the Colorado Senator 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:17.960 sat there and said, who keeps pushing Joe Biden to 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:22.919 the left? And it seemed like he was well aware 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:27.760 that where Biden Biden was doing as president wasn't always 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:32.280 in the Joe Biden lexicona what he did policy wise, 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:35.400 and a lot of the blame is put on Ron Klein. 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.320 Ron Klain's main purpose was to do as much as 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:43.000 what the progressive caucus in Congress wanted as possible. It 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:46.239 was always to lean to the far left, which I 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:49.720 think was fascinating because conservatives what always say, I understand 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:51.680 Biden said he was a moderate for so many years. 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:55.000 Obvious there was this leaning evolution of Biden to the left, 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:57.959 but it was hard left on things like immigration, to 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.639 the left of Obama on immigration. Who was responsible for that? 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:03.560 Just my orkis is there something in the White House? 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.280 It turns out it was Ron and Klean. Super fascinating. Also, 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:10.799 super interesting part of the book was I'm saying the 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:12.400 word super too much, so I'm going to stop that. 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:16.880 But really interesting part of the book was when Biden 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:21.119 said in the debate, we defeated medicaire the famous line, right. 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:25.880 Dana Bash looked over at Jake Tapper, passed him a 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:28.880 note and said, he just lost this election. Which is 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:33.200 great because I've never actually heard what the people in 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:35.880 the debate moderators are saying to each other while it's 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.560 going on, and they are communicating, So that was really fascinating. 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:42.160 The other thing that I wanted, I thought was highlighted, 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:44.720 was when they brought all the Democratic centers together. This 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:48.760 is post debate when Biden is down seven points nationally 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.120 and he's going to lose not only in the swing states, 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:54.360 but also in Maine, in Minnesota, in New Mexico, and 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:56.360 the governors of these states are saying, you're going to 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:58.160 lose New Mexico, You're going to lose Maine, all the 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:04.080 rest of it. John Fetterman gets up and starts screaming 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:08.200 at his fellow Democratic senators and saying, how dare you, 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:12.880 how dare you betray a great president? How dare you 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:15.520 do this to him? And it was and John Fetterman 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.919 was one of only five Democrats in the room, along 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:21.159 with Tammy Duckworth and like one or two other ones 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.320 who sat there and John Fedneron was the most vocal 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:31.520 supporter post debate, which was fascinating because Fetterman, I guess 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:34.240 because he suffered a seizure, but was willing to overlook 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:40.040 everything after we knew everything. Fetterman was completely complicit, and 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:42.920 I don't care that he cannot operate as a person. 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:47.680 We need to support him. Loved that. Loved that. Only governor, 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:49.719 by the way, to sit there democratic governor post debate 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.000 to say you need to drop out right now, ned 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:55.760 La Mom from Connecticut, super moderate governor. Stop saying super 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:59.919 moderate governor of Connecticut. Thought that was really really interesting. 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:06.480 And the relationship between Kamala and Joe is so deep 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:12.000 because Joe never wanted Kamala Harris, and Kamala Harris her 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:15.480 loyalty to Biden it had a ceiling. She was loyal 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:18.839 to a point, but she wouldn't put herself out there 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.479 if it meant hurting her. So much so that at 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.320 the debate, at a debate watch party, one of the 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:30.599 Democratic donors looked at Doug and Hooff, Kamala's husband, and 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:36.680 started screaming at him, you destroyed democracy, You destroyed democracy tonight. 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:42.599 I was stunned. The book has a lot. The authors 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.200 are getting scrutinized a lot, as they should. In some cases, 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:48.039 there's a lot of questions the authors should answer. Luckily 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.560 for us, one of the two authors, Alex Thompson, a 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.520 very very good reporter who reported on Biden's health and 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:57.760 well being long before the mainstream media did, is with 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.240 me today. So coming up next is author of the 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:04.520 book Original Sin, Alex Thompson. I am one of only 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:06.640 two conservatives that have gotten to interview one of the 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:10.360 authors besides Megan Kelly. So stay tuned. You're not going 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:16.080 to want to miss what I ask him. Alex Thompson 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.000 is the national political correspondent for Axios and the co 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.320 author of the book Original Sin, President Biden's decline, It's 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.640 cover up, and his disastrous choice to run for president again. 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.560 Right here, Alex, you ruin my sleep. I was up 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:32.240 for two nights till three o'clock in the morning reading 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:35.080 this book, getting everything down, getting notes and questions. It 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:37.800 is a page turner. It is genuinely a very very 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:41.480 well written, compelling, even sympathetic book. At times, it really 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:44.560 was very good. Thank you so, and I know that 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:48.479 conservative media is definitely having its moment with you guys, 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:50.200 But I don't want to ask. I don't want to. 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.000 I want since it's not to makeing Kelly interview. She's fine, 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.800 but not an interview. So my first question about like 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:57.080 the book, because I want to get to the bones 0:06:57.080 --> 0:06:59.200 of the book, is when you, as someone who's written 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:01.159 a book before, when you write a book, when you 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.360 reach out to the publisher, you the publisher asked, who 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:07.520 is the audience? Who was the audience in mind when 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:09.880 you were writing this book, because a lot of times 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:12.920 it seems like it's for a democratic audience. 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.800 M h. Is that you mean that this You mean 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:17.680 this book? You think it's very democratic your book? 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:20.760 Yeah. No, I actually think our intention, and I don't 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:23.600 know if we achieved it, was that it actually would 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:27.280 be both the right and the left. We thought that basically, 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:31.840 we pitched that liberals are going to be sort of 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:36.480 disoriented and want to know how what what happened? And 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:40.840 our hope was that conservatives, even though a lot of 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:45.040 conservatives obviously feel deep frustration because they feel they had 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.400 been saying that, hey, he was in decline for a 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:52.040 long time and felt that that was not being covered 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:54.960 aggressively by much of the mainstream media. We thought that 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:59.800 still conservatives would be interested in the behind the scenes. 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:04.880 The Highncy stories are wild. I touched upon them. When 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:08.160 the donor's yelling at Doug m Hoff saying you ruined democracy, 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:09.960 I was like, whoa and John. 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:12.520 That was director Rob Regner. 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:17.120 So, you know, we were hoping that even the Republicans, 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:22.360 I think, feel a little dis ilusions and also feel like, uh, 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:25.720 you know, I think that the behind the scenes details 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:29.640 of how the Democratic Party covered up for Biden for 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:32.120 so long. We thought that and we said this, I mean, 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:35.080 this was literally our pitch to the publisher that this 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:37.800 is not a right leaning book or a left leaning book, 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.679 Like the audience is not necessarily left lean or right. 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:45.040 We think there's good arguments to both sides to be interested. 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:47.240 I think that maybe because all the sources were mostly 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:50.160 all Democrats, I think that maybe that's why there's a 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:54.240 left leaning comp Like what Manners was speaking, I noticed that, 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:56.000 but I just wanted to know your opinion on that. 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:59.760 So there is Joe Biden, Donald Trump have something very 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:03.480 much comment, which is their internal ethos, is that they 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:06.800 believe that they are outsiders. They believe that the media, 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.080 the leads the establishment hate them, and that everything that 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.520 they have accomplished is in defiance of those forces. Can 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:17.360 you describe the ethos, because Biden almost is like a 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.480 Kennedy esque mentality where he created his own legend, like 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:23.319 Jackie created the legend of Camelot and then all the 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:27.200 living Kennedy's just assumed it. Biden created a legend of 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.120 himself and then everyone just assumed it. Could you describe that? 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:30.600 In the book? 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:34.240 Yeah, we even call it became a Biden theology, and 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:37.120 I'd say the first commandment of that theology is that 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:41.400 Biden always gets back up. Biden is always counted out, 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:44.480 and he always comes back and proves his critics wrong. 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:47.600 I'd say, there, you know, there's also parts of the theology, 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:49.560 and the same way there are with you know, with 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.240 Camelot and with whatever you know, I don't know if 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:54.480 you want to call it mag a court or something, 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:57.079 but with Trump that there are there are parts of 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:00.560 the theology that you know, if you take a set back, 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:06.120 certainly ring faults and you know, and you know, for 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:10.360 for instance, one person very close to the family, they 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:13.800 they basically said, you know, parts of the like parts 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:16.600 of the tenants of the Biden theology are like, you 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:21.280 know that hunters, you know that that Hunter's sobriety is stable, 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:25.199 that Joe cares more about his family than his ambition. 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:30.800 That Jill is like a very warm and nice person, and. 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:35.079 Uh and and they repeat these things as if they 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.360 are just obvious facts. 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:41.360 And don't call people fat, which Joe did at the 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:47.000 campaign Hampshire, which was so fascinating. 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:50.480 But but the Biden press team insisted to us that 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:51.040 he didn't. 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:52.560 So I think it's on camera. 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:57.520 I have to fact check you there. Uh. 0:10:57.559 --> 0:10:59.400 I think I don't remember what their spin was. I 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.960 think they they were like, I can't remember what word 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:06.199 they said he said, but it was obvious, like a. 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:09.400 But yes, the rule, the other Biden rule of don't 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.520 call fat people fat, which you know in some ways 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:15.320 is being polite, but the other, the dark side of 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.880 that saying is ignore inconvenient truths. 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.480 So the evolution of Jill Biden in your book is 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.040 fascinating because you say in the beginning of the book 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:29.320 that Jill did not like being a politician's wife, or 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:31.920 she wasn't a natural, She wasn't she didn't because she worked. 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.120 I did not know that she was a professor or 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:37.959 even while she was second Lady, and she all of 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:40.640 a sudden goes from being kind of in the background 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:44.480 and begrudgingly in the background to being a quasi chief 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:47.120 of staff and having her own team run the large 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:51.520 segments of the White House. That was why did she change? 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:53.160 Great question, I think. 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.840 Some people, and I guess there's no one clean answer, 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:00.880 according to people that i've that have talked to her, 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.319 or that worked for or our sources within the White House. 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:06.560 And to your point, you know, she she taught college 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:09.559 even through the presidency. She's still taught at a community college. 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:15.280 And I think what people around her say is that 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.680 something seemed to change over the course of the vice 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:24.760 presidency and then certainly in the intervening years post the 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.640 vice presidency, And some people felt that she fell in 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.360 love with the life and you know, the Vogue covers 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:35.080 and sort of you know, the elevated style and elegance. 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:41.160 And I also think that she definitely deeply loves Joe. 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.880 And I think I remember I remember someone said to 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:48.040 me that, you know, Joe Biden is nothing if not 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:52.079 for this, and saw him sort of in the wilderness 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.400 in those years seventeen eighteen and saw that this gave 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.199 him purpose and that you know, it was. 0:12:58.200 --> 0:12:59.760 Everything he ever wanted. 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:01.920 I think I think both the combination of falling in 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:06.559 love with life but also this, you know, it's sort 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.400 of like the dark side of loyalty and love, right, 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:11.720 is that it can't you know, you can end up 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:16.439 justifying more and more and so And to your point, 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:19.560 the early signs that she is going to be a 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.600 very as someone in the White House put it there, 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:24.360 several people in the whitest put one of the most 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:28.400 powerful first ladies in American history. The signs are there 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.280 at the beginning of twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, when her 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.640 top aide, a man named Anthony Bernall, is made one. 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.760 Of the Your characterizations of him, by the way, are hysterical. Sorry, 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.719 they're so funny. I could picture him, Evefough. I've never 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:42.839 seen him or heard him before. I was like, oh, 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:43.800 I know this person. 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:49.160 He's he's certainly there is a certain archetype both as 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.239 a person in a DC sort of DC like advanced 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:53.600 man operative right. 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:55.960 Anyway, he he becomes one. 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:58.800 Of the deputy campaign managers on the campaign, very unusual, 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.200 and then once they go into the White House, he 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:07.199 becomes sort of like a shadow like personnel officer, placing 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.400 this person and that person, you know, and his main 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:16.240 coda is like loyalty above everything, and there is there 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:21.160 is no greater virtue and no greater sin than being 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.640 even perceived as disloyal. And he becomes seen internally as 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.520 sort of loyalty to police. And he is constantly in 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:31.080 the First Lady's ear. This person is this, this person 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:34.120 is this. And so when he and he becomes incredibly 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:37.680 important in the president's scheduling, he's sitting in the president 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:41.800 scheduling meetings, and you know, like basically the conversation ender 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.640 is He'll be like, Jill won't like this, you know, yea, 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:48.960 and then and the conversation's over. And because if you object, 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:51.800 then maybe, oh, is that because you're disloyal, you know. 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:56.160 And the way that she eventually. 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:01.360 The combination of them two sort of slowly pushed out 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:07.360 anyone seen as disloyal and sort of placed all people 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.440 that they trusted, you know, I think they you know, 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.320 people have said that both if she was like the 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:16.280 most powerful, one of the most powerful slaves, he was 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:20.480 certainly probably the most powerful First Lady chief of staff. 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:21.960 We've maybe ever seen. 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:24.840 Yeah, so you brought the Vogue covers. And that's interesting 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:29.200 because I remember hearing from my friends in Capitol Hill 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:34.280 and in various positions that that was a big contention 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.760 because Kamala Harris got a Vogue cover before Jill Biden, 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.120 which is not traditional that we've never had a female 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:44.280 vice president before. And Jill, Jill never seemed to like 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.880 Kamala Harris, she never trusted her because of the original thing. 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.240 I was calling basically Biden a racist during the debate, 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.760 and you made an illusion that she, you know, Forgabe 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:58.120 and not forget YadA, YadA, YadA, and Biden didn't really 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.360 want her. He woned Gretchen Whitmer and was really pushing 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:05.760 to her. Do you think that he ever did? And 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:09.200 he was by incredibly destructive to her presidential campaign, and 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:13.440 you characterizes her being more loyal to him than him 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:15.720 to her. Do you think that he at the end 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.080 of his presidency regretted picking her? 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:19.960 No, because it's like one of those things like a 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:23.800 president can't ever say they regretted it, right, It's such 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.560 a consement decision. Do I think there were I can 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:28.920 tell you this, there were a lot of feelings among 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:32.880 Biden's top staff that regretted picking her. I remember while 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:34.960 I was reporting this book, the book's called original Sin. 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:36.840 They were like, no, no, no, the original sin is 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.440 not him running again, it's picking Kamala Harris because they 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.560 did not have confidence that she would be a good 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:44.920 candidate or that she could win. 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:48.680 Right well, even when they realized top Democrats realize something's 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:50.760 wrong with Joe Biden, we may need to replace him, 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:53.600 their initial thing is, let's get Gretchen Whitmer. Her name 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.640 comes up far more frequently in the early conversations, and 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.800 it's only the Black caucus that's It's like, you're not 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:02.400 going to pick You're not going to side stuff the 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:05.760 first black female president, female vice president for the nomination. 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:10.320 What did top Democrats see in her as a liability 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.119 early on? That they knew about his way before? I 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:15.440 think most other ones did well. 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:19.760 She ran a disastrous twenty twenty presidential campaign despite massive 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:23.520 hype and you know, big crowds early on. She didn't 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:25.840 even she had to drop out early and didn't have 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:26.560 to go to Iowa. 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:27.360 You can see the. 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:32.080 Revolving door of staff that have gone through her office 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.879 back when she was a state attorney general. She'd also 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:38.600 really with the exception of like twenty ten attorney general race, 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:41.400 she never won a tough race, and that twenty ten 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.520 attorney general race she barely won. She I mean, she 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:45.919 underperformed the rest of the ticket. 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:48.200 Two points I think are a point and a half 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:51.560 in California, which is good for a Democrat. 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:56.280 And a lot of people thought that, you know, she 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:02.320 wasn't especially nice to staff and didn't seem to get 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:04.760 in the weeds of the substance. And I just think 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:09.919 also I think, you know, I think Democrats, especially this 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:12.639 generation of Democrats, which remembers sort of like you know, 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:17.480 Northeast liberal, were worried about you know, San Francisco liberal, right, 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:21.879 and what's a different kind of liberal, Yeah, but a 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:26.879 similar sort of you know, a similar can can be 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.680 sort of seen. Especially it's a different sort of liberal, 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:31.720 especially on cultural issues, which you saw in sort of 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:33.320 the Trump campaign response to her. 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:35.280 She had she had joined much of the rest of 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.560 the party and running to the left in twenty nineteen. 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.040 So I think the combination of all of those things, 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:44.280 plus Pelosi and Kamala have never gone along going back 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:49.320 to San Francisco days, like Pelosi supported her opponent in 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:51.080 the DA race back in like two. 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.480 Thousand and four, whatever year that was. So this goes 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:54.600 back like a long. 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.080 Way, and Gavin Newsom didn't like her a lot of people. 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:59.679 I mean, Kamala, you don't have to be likable to 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:03.040 be to make friends. Apparently something you didn't touch on 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:05.399 the book that much, And I thought it was a 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:09.680 glaring thing with conservatives that we talk about and we've 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.320 talked about for a long time, is this the Biden 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:16.320 family business is very much connected to their connection towards 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:22.800 Joe and Joe's connection to power. Was that a motivating 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:26.360 factor in why Jill and Hunter did not want him 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.520 to drop out was that they're now and the brother 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:30.919 too did not want him to drop out, and they 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:33.479 all make money off of being close to the president 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:34.640 and the former vice president. 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:39.840 Yeah, I think, you know, with Hunter, I think he 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:43.760 was actually more because it wasn't like Hunter was able 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:45.879 to do any more business anymore, right, because there was 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:46.800 so much scrutiny. 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:48.640 He was still signed paintings though. 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:53.800 Yeah, well he had to stop because of the scrutiny already, 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:55.600 Like in twenty twenty one, he was still painting, but 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:56.600 he wasn't able to sell them. 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:58.760 So, you know, had Hitler been as successful as Hunter Biden, 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:00.000 world War two would have never happened. 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:05.160 But it was I think. 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:09.879 I think it was a combination of Actually, for Hunter 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:12.600 in particular, I think it was a combination of both, 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:17.840 you know, livelihood, because you know, while Biden was president, 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.400 you know, I think he felt confident he would stay 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:24.679 out of jail. And I think he you know, he 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:27.760 has like a very nice life that's sort of propped 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:32.159 up by this former Hollywood agent. He lives in like 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:35.600 this great beautiful house in Malibu, you know, so he's 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.280 living like a comfortable existence and doesn't have a job 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:39.119 besides painting. 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:40.880 So I think there's a livelihood part of it. 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:45.560 But also I think, you know, I think, and we 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:50.600 get into this a little bit, the Hunter's sobriety is 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:54.280 so caught up in his dad's. 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.760 Staying in office. Because you have to remember, when Joe Ran. 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:01.000 Decided to run in April twenty was still in like 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.560 the depths of his crack addiction, and they didn't even 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:06.080 know where he was most of the time. 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.040 That scene where Joe was chasing him trying to get 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:12.680 him into rehab is really powerful and compelling thank you, and. 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:17.240 He's you know, he's he's following, and it's it's so striking. 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:21.640 He gets sober like three weeks after his dad gets 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:24.560 in the presidential race. That's his sobriety date under oath 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:28.880 and core right, and so, you know, I think that 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:32.359 was sort of keeping him stable. You know, Jill, I 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:34.760 think like, as we said, like liked the life. You know, 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:36.760 her top aid would always be like, we'll do this 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:38.320 in the second term. We're going to do this trip 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:40.480 in the second term, this and that. You know, I 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:44.399 think there was like a livelihood the I think, and 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:46.879 I get the question of like why didn't you go 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.359 more into the business stuff. I think because of the 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:55.240 tremendous scrutiny and the Republican investigations a lot of like 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:58.840 the sketchy, the sketchy details that they got away with 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:03.160 and the VP years and in the in the years 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:06.600 between VP and president, they actually weren't doing as much. 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:09.200 Yeah, but even I mean, after Biden leaves the White 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:12.400