WEBVTT - Escaping Ukraine 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:09.039 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here. UM. Obviously, as I'm sure 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:11.880 everyone is being bombarded with, the war in Ukraine is 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:16.680 uh in its fifth day right now something like that. Um. 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:20.800 We just passed ninety six hours. By some accounts, more 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:23.800 than three hundred thousand people have been made refugees. Those 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:27.400 are going to be very in exact numbers, but it's 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:29.800 it's likely to be somewhere between like fifty and a 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:33.239 hundred thousand people per day being made refugees, and it's 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.440 possible that's gonna last for the foreseeable future. Much of 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.760 the coverage that you will have seen at this point, 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:44.160 UM is going to focus on heroic pieces of of 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:47.200 of resistance, you know, things that Ukrainian civilians picking up arms, 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:52.320 throwing Molotov cocktails, Ukrainian soldiers destroying Russian armored columns. Some 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:54.880 of that's gonna be a propaganda some of that A 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:57.400 decent amount of that's actually happening. Obviously, we have a 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:00.480 fair amount of documentation, but what I think has not 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:03.960 gotten nearly as much play as the situation at the 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:09.240 border of Ukraine in Poland. UM. Because this refugee crisis 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.840 is enormous, but it's also not sexy, and it points 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:15.520 to a number of things that are ugly about some 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:17.600 of the stuff that people like to celebrate this conflict, 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:20.800 including the conduct of President Zelinsky, who is i think 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:23.920 handled himself objectively well as a wartime leader, and who 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:25.800 is also, as you'll hear in the interview that's about 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:28.360 to follow, made some decisions that have had a catastrophic 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:31.800 impact on people's lives. So this is an interview conducted 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:35.760 by a journalist H. James Stout, who is working with 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.280 us on this project and with another project that will 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:43.000 be launching soon, with a person, an individual, an American 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.840 who was well has a couple of different passports, but 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.000 with a person who was in Ukraine when the invasion 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:53.800 began and left and eventually wound up leaving on foot 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:57.760 with tens of thousands of other people for the Polish border. 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.560 So this is a story of what it is like 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.120 to flee a country at the beginning of a war 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:06.920 um and and the realities that increasing numbers of Ukrainians 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.200 are going to be facing every single day. So please listen, 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:16.280 Hey Manny, how are you I'm doing well? How are 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:18.120 you good? Good? It's ready to keep you up late. 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:22.120 I'm period exhausted. No, No, it's okay, it's okay. Um. 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:25.359 I actually just arrived at a new hostel in New City. Um, 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:27.880 and I'm going to be up for a couple more 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:30.640 hours anyway, so it's a good time to talk. Nice. Great, 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:34.720 do you mind if I record this? Go ahead? Cool? Excellent, 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.119 and let me explain what we're gonna do. So I'm 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:42.120 I'm bringing the piece for NBC on the the refugee 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:45.960 situation that's emerging, and then I'm also helping to make 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:49.760 a podcast for I Heart Radio about a similar thing. 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:51.919 So it's okay with you. We'll use the audio for 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.880 one and then some of your words for another. Absolutely, 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.200 how is my audio coming through? It's great, Actually, it's 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:00.560 really really good. But you wanted to telephone or you 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.440 on a computer. I'm on a telephone right now. I 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:05.919 don't have a computer with me. Now, you're doing really well. 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:08.600 If you're on a computer, i'd ask you to record 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.679 it back up, but this is just fine. I'm recording. 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:16.680 So yeah, like, um, it seems like you've had a 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:22.440 pretty exhausting forty eight hours now. So if we go 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:27.720 back to when you were in Kiev, right, Yeah, So 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.120 I was in Kiev a few days ago. I was 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:34.240 in Kiev, um eight days ago. Um. And then I 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:38.560 went to Lviv four days ago. Okay. And had you 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:41.760 been how long have you been in Ukraine? I had been. 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:44.240 I've been in Ukraine or I had been in Ukraine 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:46.680 in total for one week, okay, so you have not 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:51.160 that long. And you so you're riding Kiev, you went 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.640 to Leviv. Can you remember, like where you were when 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:57.960 you found out that the invasion was happening and that 0:03:58.040 --> 0:03:59.800 it was going to go past don Bass and into 0:03:59.880 --> 0:04:03.520 you Grane, Yeah, of course. So I woke up on 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:06.200 the morning of twenty four February to the sound of 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:08.920 air raid sirens outside, and it was a very confusing sound. 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:10.880 I had never heard it right, sirens in real life. 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:13.080 I just heard them in movies and television shows and such. 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:15.840 And I knew immediately what had happened. I didn't even 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:19.680 have to check the news, um. And I did check 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.920 the news soon afterward, and there were bombings all over 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.200 the country. There were reports of bombings in Ivana front Kiss, 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:29.520 which is a city one south of le Viv, where 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:32.680 I was, and there were so many rumors flying around. 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:34.760 There were rumors that the Russians were coming coming to 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.000 Levv at that moment, which was not the case but 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.640 can still be the case very soon. Anyway, So we 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.040 heard I heard these these air raids sirens as I 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:46.360 woke up, and I shook away my roommate, who was 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:50.400 a British journalist, um, and I told him we might 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:53.840 be bombed any minute. So we went outside to try 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:58.039 and find a shelter. Um, pretty much still in our nightclothes, 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:00.120 we went outside to try and find a shelter. They 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:04.640 were a loudspeakers saying, uh, everybody remained calm, fine shelter 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:07.800 helped the elderly stockpile water, and it was repeating this 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:10.920 on repeat, and people were shuffling along. There was a 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:14.160 sense of muted panic. So it was an outright panic, 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:16.960 but it was a sense of urgency, I guess you 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.799 could call it. And um, we were at war and 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:25.240 that was when I realized that Ukraine was being invaded 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:29.000 at that very moment. Wow, yeah, it sounds dramatic. And 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.200 at that point you went to the shelter, I'm guessing, 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:34.640 so did you spend some time then before making the 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:38.839 decision to head to Poland? So after about fifteen minutes 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:41.640 the air rates I would stopped. The news generally came 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:44.640 around the city that Lviv was not about to be bombed, 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:49.080 but nevertheless, massive exodus of people began from Leviv at 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:51.960 that moment. Because okay, we're safe for now, but for 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:54.640 how long are we safe? Was the general sentiment that 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:59.599 was around. So Um, everybody just started making for the 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.680 trains station, the bus station. They got into their cars. 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:05.880 People were just leaving. There were huge lines at the 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.040 A T. M s. There were huge lines at the 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:12.599 grocery stores. People were buying non perishables. Um. It was 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:15.440 just not a panic pull out, I want to call it, 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.559 but it was an urgent departure. It was an urgent 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.320 exodus that was happening. And so me and my roommate 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:23.880 we went to the train station, waited in the line 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:25.920 for two hours to see if there were tickets. There 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:28.320 were no tickets. We went to the bus station. We 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:30.080 waited in the line for one hour to see if 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:33.960 there were tickets. There were no tickets. Um, And so 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:36.000 then we started to get a little worried because it 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:39.320 was noon on the day of the invasion. Russian forces 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:41.760 were everywhere in the country of our bombings. Everywhere in 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:44.159 the country and we had to leave, and there was 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.960 no viable means to leave. The airport was closed. Of course, 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:51.359 the airport was being bombed a few hours later. Um. 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:56.039 And so we tried to look into car higher. We 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:57.440 tried to see if we could rent a car. We 0:06:57.440 --> 0:06:58.920 tried to see if we could take an uber or 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:01.040 a lift or a blah blah car, which is the 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:05.080 Ukrainian version of Uber. And none of those options were available. 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:09.080 Because everybody was thinking the same thing, and in a 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:14.559 sense of almost resigned despair, we decided that it would 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.280 be best to just start walking west and see what happened. 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:22.960 And there was around noon when we began to walk west. Wow. Um. 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:26.120 So when you you set off to walk, did you 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:28.760 just sort of take what you could carry and that's 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:30.480 sort of what most people were doing, or did you 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:32.720 get the sense that at least the people were like 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:36.200 preparing for a long period of time away when they left. 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:38.720 The people certainly were not preparing for a long period 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:41.680 of time away. The people were not preparing for war. Um. 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:45.320 For the longest time, President Zelinski and the Ukrainian government 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:48.640 maintained that there would be no war. They called indications 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:53.640 of war alarmists, they called them ludicrous, and uh, it 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:56.280 was only in the final twenty four hours that everybody 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:57.920 sort of woke up and said there's going to be 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:00.160 a war. So I remember the last day before were 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.880 the invasion. People were getting ready, people were waiting at 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:04.800 the A T. M s. People were buying groceries, people 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.680 were packing. But it was not before before that time, 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.160 nobody was getting ready for the war. And so when 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:16.559 the war struck, everybody, uh, everybody just sort of left 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.720 hastily and it was a terrifying departure, of a sudden 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.560 and terrifying departure because people didn't know what to do 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:24.600 and they just sort of grabbed what they had and 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.600 they ran. Luckily for me, in my roommate, we were 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.920 traveling with, you know, just one pack or so because 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.200 we were not living in Ukraine, um, and so we 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:37.680 were able to just carry what we had on our backs. Yeah. 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.120 So he told me through that walk then it's I 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:42.640 think that's sort of like forty three miles is a right, 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.280 That's that's right. So we did take a municipal bus 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.040 a little bit of the way, which are the municipal bus. 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:49.920 I believe it was five kilometers down the road road 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:53.840 UM five kilometers being like three miles down the road, UM. 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.559 And the total distance from LVIV to the borders eight 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:00.679 eighty kilometers, sorry eighty kilometers. Uh. So that really did 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.240 not make a dent at all in the distance. And 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:05.160 it was noon when we started, and we knew for 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:10.079 a fact that UM, that we would not make it 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:12.679 before nightfall. And we knew that and we were terrified 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:16.000 at that. So at first we walked along the countryside 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:20.600 was picturesque, it was beautiful, It was indistinguishable from holiday 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:24.520 during springtime. There was a fair, fair weather, it was sunny, UM, 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:26.599 and no one could even tell that the nation was 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.840 at war. There was really nobody else walking on the 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:34.280 road besides us in the beginning, and the first twenty kilometers, 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:38.680 I would say, UM. And then we started seeing long 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:42.120 lines of the petrol stations. Every everywhere was out of gas. 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.640 There nobody had gas. UM. There was just no ability 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:49.839 to fuel cars. And as a consequence of that, UM 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:52.800 cars were running out of gas and they were being 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.280 abandoned on the side of the road, which caused further 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:59.160 traffic pile ups, and soon the road was impenetrable to vehicles. 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:05.719 UM and so because of this, everybody started getting out 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:07.880 of their cars and walking, And so these families who 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:11.440 had planned to escape Mukraine to Poland in their cars 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:13.880 and carry their lives with them were suddenly faced with 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:16.800 the hard decision of taking what they could carry with them. Yeah, 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.959 that just sounds terrible. That sounds really difficult. And I'm 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:23.120 sure you saw like older folks and younger people as well, 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:27.040 with people sort of and struggling to do. That's a 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:28.880 long walk, right, that's nd a walk and everyone can 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:31.400 do it, must be very dear. It's a difficult walk 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:35.959 for a young man. And many old women and little 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.480 children under the age of five or forced on this 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.480 march because there really was no other option for them. 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.840 It was either go back to Ukraine and risk being bombed, 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:49.839 risk being under Russian occupation, or it was get out 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:52.800 of your car and walk in the wintertime with no 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:58.400 food or water, no toilet, four fifty miles. And it 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:01.120 was just this nightmare scenario because all these people were 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.240 on the road. There were people in wheelchairs who couldn't 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.840 negotiate the mud. There were mothers with strollers who couldn't 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:12.439 get get the children um out, and the children were crying, 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:14.360 and the children were asking why are we here, what 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:16.000 it will be doing? Why did we have to leave 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:19.440 home and stand and walk fifty miles in the middle 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:23.400 of winter. Um. And the old people were sort of 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:27.000 resigned to it. They There was one old woman I 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.880 passed to was using a cane and she was hobbling 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.160 along jade to backpack and I asked her, where are 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:34.520 you going, because we were a part, we were a 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.480 long long way from the border, and she said, I'm 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:39.800 going to Poland, very simply. It was a very matter 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:44.480 of fact, um statement. And so these people walked with 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:48.520 a sense of duty and a sense of urgency, and um, 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:51.640 it was just a very tragic humanitarian scene. Yeah, I 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:53.760 can imagine. And that was a major that was a 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:55.920 major route that year on right, like a major road 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:59.920 that just become impossible. It wasn't one of the bigger highway, 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.120 but it was I believe the M eleven, the Ukrainian 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.120 M eleven and it runs east west throughout the country 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.920 and uh, yeah, it's one of the major roads and 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:13.560 it had become completely clogged. Yeah. So on arrival in 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:18.120 im Poland or the border, and I understand that there's 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:23.599 some men like broadly defined as like military age or 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:26.360 eighteen to sixty. I think aren't allowed us and leave 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:29.000 because they they have they have to stay in it 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:31.880 and enlist. Is that right? Did you see? Yes? The 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:34.839 border was absolutely the worst part for that reason. About 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:36.960 five kilometers from the border, at the end of our walk, 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:39.640 we were feeling relieved. We were feeling like, finally we've 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:44.240 made it. Ukrainian military patrols started walking by and driving 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:47.320 by and announcing through loud speakers and announcing with their 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:53.679 own voices, Um, all men must stay. All men between 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:56.400 the ages of eighteen and sixty have to stay. Get 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.240 out of line now. And so the fathers naturally asked, 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:00.640 because there were a lot of fathers who were there 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:02.800 to protect their families, to safeguard their families, and to 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.319 provide for their families. Uh, these fathers asked, how about us, 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:08.920 we have to we have little children, We have children 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.000 under the age of five. How are we supposed to 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.520 provide for them? If you conscript us right here? The 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.720 Ukrainian army did not care. They pulled them away physically 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:20.040 from their families. There were a lot of tears, There 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:21.400 was a lot of crying, There were a lot of 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:28.320 hurried goodbyes. Brothers left, sisters, mothers left, husbands, um, lovers 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:32.640 left each other. People, people just left. It was terrifying 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:36.360 to watch. Um. Yeah, all these men were conscripted immediately 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.400 into the army. Yeah, I can imagine. And what people 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.320 at that point like it seems like that we're ready 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:44.720 to be stoic. Up to that point, were people sort 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:48.280 of resisting that like gift with aid, like sort of 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:51.640 sad but resigned to it. That was that Well, that 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:54.920 was when the panic began because everybody was sad but 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.240 resigned to their faith of walking to Poland. But nobody 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.520 was prepared for losing all the on Um. So when 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:03.640 all the men were lost, when all the men were 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:06.559 taken forcibly and this was public, everybody could see these 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:10.160 men being yanked from their families. Uh. People first started 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:13.440 yelling at the soldiers that didn't do anything obviously um 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.280 and they were they were so angry at the soldiers 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.040 and the soldiers were didn't care. Um. And then panic 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.280 began because people realized, oh my god, this this person 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:25.560 who was here with us, who was a travel companion, 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.360 who's a relative, Now we have to leave without him. 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.520 And even more, he's going to the front now and 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:34.320 he is in great danger at the front. So people 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:38.520 began pushing, they began shoving, they began being rude to 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:42.760 one another. Um. There there was no sense of empathy 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:44.880 among the people at all because it was a panic 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.680 to get across the border at that point. Um. So 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:52.280 there were people fainting, uh, and that was really just overlooked. 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:54.760 The people who fainted were sort of dragged to the 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:59.000 side and left there and I think they they made it. 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:00.760 I don't know if they made it out. Okay, they 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:04.440 certainly didn't die. But there were people who were fainting. 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.640 There are people who were sobbing, There are people who 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.720 were hyperventilating. That was vomiting going on. It was just 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:14.440 this sense of absolute human panic as people just tried 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:17.040 to escape. In the last in the last five kilometers 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:21.440 and especially in the last was the very worst. So, yeah, 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:23.880 terrible thing to see. If you hadn't say you stay 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:28.120 in touch. One of the lads who was conscripted right, yes, 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:33.960 that that was a development from tonight. So while we 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.560 were walking about this was about fifteen kilometers out from 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:41.400 the border, we met a young Ukrainian man um and 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:43.320 we just got to talking to him because I mean, 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:45.640 we could relate to him. We were about I'm about 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:49.400 the same age as him, um, and so I we 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:51.120 were just like sort of talking about our lives and 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:52.800 it was almost as if the war wasn't going on. 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:57.040 And then we got to these army checkpoints um, and 0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:59.200 they started calling all the men you have to you 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:03.840 have to leave, um. And so my friend said, oh, 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:05.480 I'm not I'm not leaving. I don't want to fight 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:07.920 in this war. And he tried to, you know, sort of, um, 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:10.800 stay with us. Because we were foreigners, we were not 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:13.920 we were not eligible to be conscripted, so he sort 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:16.120 of tried to stay with us. He was he was 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:20.120 a student. He was trying not to fight in this 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:21.960 war because he had a life elsewhere. He had a 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:27.760 girlfriend who who was traveling with U. And so we 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.000 we were walking with him and I said, hey, do 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:32.600 you want to do an interview? He said sure, um, 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:34.840 and I started talking to him on camera, and then 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.040 the soldier came by and yelled in his direction, hey, 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:40.600 you get out of line, and um. He said, I'm sorry, 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:42.960 I have to go, and he just gave me this look, 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:45.320 like this desparing look, and he went with the soldier. 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:51.520 UM the two days later. Today tonight, he messaged me 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:54.560 on Instagram and he said, because we by the way, 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:57.200 we had exchange contact information where we were talking. Um. 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.920 He messaged me on Instagram and he said, hey, I 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.040 saw that you mentioned me and uh in your Twitter 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:06.680 because I told him about the Twitter as well. UM, 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:10.280 and he said, just letting you know I'm safe if 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:13.439 I'm not in the East fighting the Russians. Um, I 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.160 am in Leviv and I am safe. And it is 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:20.760 my knowledge that he may have escaped conscription because he 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:25.000 would otherwise be in the East. But um, I'm not sure. 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:26.960 I just know that he was safe right now, and 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:30.440 he confirmed that he was safe. Okay, So so yeah, 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:33.200 you're not sure whether he's doing training or whether he's 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.440 in Smresti role or if he's managed to get out 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:38.119 of it. To himhow I know that he has managed 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.160 to escape the brunt of the fighting of the Russians, 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.679 that's right, Yeah, okay, yeah, good for him, But it's 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:46.040 still a terrible thing to have to do with. So 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.440 it's my understanding. It's a visa. There's visa free entry 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:51.840 into Poland right now? Is that right? That people can 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.880 walk aggressively. Yes, the entry into Poland was an absolute 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.520 priest compared to the exit from Ukraine. I don't know why, 0:17:57.920 --> 0:17:59.679 but you have to wait in a long line and 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.480 rain for an exit piece, just for permission to leave 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:04.399 the country. And so, as I mentioned, that was the 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:08.520 worst part because they were only letting ten people out 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:11.080 every twenty minutes. That ten people get an exit visa 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.639 every twenty minutes, and there were at least two thousand 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:16.600 people at the border with US, and so that's that's 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.040 where this panic happened, is because every time they opened 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.520 that gate every twenty minutes, and by the way, this 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.240 is like two in the morning in the cold weather, 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:28.440 and people are as I mentioned, crying, vomiting, fainting, um. 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.639 And so every time they opened that gate, there was 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:34.320 a human crush to get to that gate, and it 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:36.199 closed it and they forced the people back, and then 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.080 it was another twenty minutes before it happened again. And 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.840 this happened all night long, um. And this was literally 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.240 just to get permission to exit the country. It was ludicrous, 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:48.639 it was insane. UM. So yeah, I'm sorry to divert 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:53.240 from your question, but it's very interesting. Poland was extremely 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:56.359 easy to enter. There was no visa process. They understood. 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:59.760 They let us through. I think they just barely looked 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:02.800 at our passports. UM. So yeah, it was it was 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:15.359 easy when you at that point, like obviously had no 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.359 plans or places to go, and they could they house 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:20.760 you with some kind of refugee housing that they put 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:24.280 you in. Uh not when I was there, Um, they 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:26.600 did do that. They did implement that about twelve hours 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.840 after I arrived. Um. But when I arrived, we were 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:33.080 greeted immediately pretty much right out of the border facility 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:37.000 with donuts and tea um. And so they gave us donuts, 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:39.720 they gave us tea UM. And then they said, hey, 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.760 there's a bus to Premishill, which is the city about 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.800 fifteen kilometers west of the border, um where all the 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:47.720 refugees are gathering. And they said there's a bus the 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:49.800 Premiership at least every fifteen minutes. And we got on 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:53.160 that bus um and then we end up we arrived 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:56.200 in Premiershill and at that time refugees were responsible for 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:59.639 their own accommodation. We managed to book a room in 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:04.840 a whole tell with eight other refugees um in the room. Uh. 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:06.680 And so I was sleeping in this this room with 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:09.240 eight other refugees. They didn't want to talk to me. 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.400 They were kind of despondent. They lost everything, and so 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:15.960 they were just very sad the entire time that I 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:19.600 was there. Yeah, but to answer your question about housing 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:23.000 real quick, uh, about twelve hours after we arrived, they 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:25.480 began setting up tents for the refugees, and that is 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.640 where many of the refugees are living now. Intense Okay, 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:30.720 it's that you know, that's a Polish government or the 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:34.040 Red Cross or is that citizens of Poland. I have 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:36.400 no idea which organization did that, but I can tell 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:38.440 you that I did not see a single Red Cross 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:42.600 or United Nations representative while I was in Poland. Okay. Interesting, Yeah, 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:46.840 they can be sometimes a little slow to react and yeah, yeah, okay, 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:50.600 So you then stayed in that hostel, you weren't able 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.080 to really talk to the people there because understandable, they 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.080 probably had a very very difficult twenty four hours and 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.080 we all had had Yeah, I mean, no talking was 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.520 being had pretty much. Did you get a sense when 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:06.200 as you met the people walking there, crossing the border, 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:10.159 et cetera, where people did they have plans to be gone? 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:12.679 From Ukraine. Were they thinking where can I stay for 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:15.240 a long period of time? Were they thinking I'm going 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:20.280 to wait this out in Poland and see? Um? I 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:23.879 was pleasantly surprised that a good half of the people 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:26.280 that I spoke to in that in that convoy, in 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:31.120 the refugee caravan had relatives either in Poland or elsewhere 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:34.280 in Europe. Um, And so they were all they had 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:37.800